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'Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list'
1996\04\15@051700 by Ken Hewitt

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Your subscription to the PICLIST list is due for renewal. If you wish to remain
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                               CONFIRM PICLIST


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1996\04\15@131915 by Terry Yingling

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On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:06:23 +0100, you wrote:

>This is a MIME message
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{Quote hidden}

Terry

1996\04\15@232300 by Harry B. Morton III

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1996\04\16@043632 by mbhskjg

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                               CONFIRM PICLIST


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// JOB
CONFIRM PICLIST
// EOJ
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**********************************************************************
#      john g koblanski. . . .    email .....john.koblanskiRemoveMEspamman.ac.uk     #
#      the school of engineering  room                    it 108     #
#      university of  manchester  tel         (44) 0161 275 5709     #
#      manchester     england     fax         (44) 0161 275 4512     #
**********************************************************************

1996\04\16@082614 by Roger Books

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And here I get annoyed again.

If you are renewing your subscription to the PICLIST could you please follow
directions?  The message plainly says return it to ".....LISTSERVSTOPspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU",
not the PICLIST.

If you feel the need to flame or respond to this, Please, I'm asking nicely,
do so to me personnally, not the list.  A reply won't do it, that goes to
the list.  Change the to line to read "booksEraseMEspam@spam@mail.state.fl.us"

Thank you for your support.

Roger

'X10 wall switch modified for xmit and rcv'
1997\02\24@153232 by Andrew Burgess
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In <RemoveME33117BF3.2438spamspamBeGoneno.junk.email> Edward Cheung <spamBeGoneedward.b.cheung.1KILLspamspam@spam@gsfc.nasa.gov>
writes:

>The purpose of this investigation is to replace the chip
>inside an X-10 wall switch with a custom programmed PIC.  This
>would allow the user to custom program the behavior of the
>wall switch.  The ultimate goal is to enable the wall switch
>to respond.  I was able to obtain many results this week in
>this project.

Awesome post Edward. Many thanks! I've included the whole original
as I added comp.arch.embedded and sci.electronics.design to the
newsgroups. I'm also sending it to the pic mailing list. The
more neurons the merrier.

{Quote hidden}

Odd that they use a step down to xmit. They must want the current
gain.

>I thus have two problems to overcome for more TX power:
>1) better transformer
>2) higher power supply voltage

>To address 1) I can reduce the windings in the secondary of the
>transformer, but this will cause my input sensitivity to suffer.

Still, then you'd be transmitting :-)

>I
>can instead replace the transformer with one that has a center tap in
>the secondary.  This will cause my output to be stepped down by
>about 6::1 (similar to the TW523's).  The problem here is that the
>full windings of the secondary (these are connected to the carrier
>input) will see TWICE the voltage I am applying to the center tap.
>The protection diodes will clamp this voltage to 5 volts, and
>completely kill my output amplitude.

Try running without the diodes or change their values? Add protection
on the new circuit board. (i'm assuming you'll add a small pcb
with SMD parts to the original uC location)

>The real solution is to add
>a SECOND signal transformer.  One for transmission, the other for
>reception.  This agrees with the approach taken by the designers
>of the TW523.  Surely the thrifty X-10 designers would have used just
>one transformer if they could get away with it....

I would not count on that. Look at all the megabytes of hindsight
about X10 on usenet through the years. The design is not perfect.
(not that I don't use and love the little beasties) There could possibly
have been only one guy designing the hardware, no design review,
no usenet or mailing lists to discuss things on ;-), etc.

>To address 2) I will need to add another power supply to the wall
>switch, one to power the output stage (-18 volts) and the other
>to power everything else.

Could you change your basic power supply to 20-30V and use a tiny
regulator for the PIC? Are there microcontrollers that run off
higher voltages (CMOS)? I think the PIC outputs can withstand
20V (if memory serves)

>I have come to the conclusion that the above two measures are not
>possible.  There is simply no room for the two.  This is really
>disapointing because I see little benefit for anyone to have the
>modified wall switch if it does not transmit.  My thoughts are to
>terminate this project at this point.

Here's a few more ideas:

Add a winding to the existing output xfmr. Would be a miracle
if it worked but you never know. Center tap it.

I opened up one of these switches to better see what you were talking
about.  What's the really big coil at the top (about 1" x 1/2 ")?
Getting rid of that would give you a nice piece of real estate.

You say that you removed a cap from the xmit xfmr. Perhaps
you detuned it? I notice that it has a tuning screw. Perhaps
adjusting it with a scope on the output? Or putting the cap back?

Just some random thoughts. Hope they help.
Thanks again for the post.
Andy

'Crossposting (was: "Re: X10 wall switch modified f'
1997\02\24@172904 by Andrew Warren

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Andrew Burgess <PICLISTspam_OUTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> Awesome post Edward. Many thanks! I've included the whole original
> as I added comp.arch.embedded and sci.electronics.design to the
> newsgroups. I'm also sending it to the pic mailing list. The more
> neurons the merrier.

Andrew:

Awesome though Edward's post may be, crossposting it to multiple
newsgroups, let alone to the PICLIST, is not likely to make many
people "merry".

In the future, perhaps it would be best to just post a short note
saying something like:

   "Edward and I are having a really fascinating discussion of X-10
   wall switches.  If you're interested in joining us, come on over
   to the comp.arch.embedded newsgroup."

Just my opinion; I could be wrong.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - spamBeGonefastfwd@spam@spamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1997\02\24@195636 by aab

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Andrew Warren said:

>Awesome though Edward's post may be, crossposting it to multiple
>newsgroups, let alone to the PICLIST, is not likely to make many
>people "merry".

I'll have to stand by the newsgroup crosspost. That's exactly
what is crossposting is for, some subjects span multiple groups.
Three newsgroups isn't excessive IMHO.

Regarding piclist, I _am_ sorry to start another thread about what
is an appropriate thread :-/

>Just my opinion; I could be wrong.

Well, what about the content of the article as opposed to the source.
Interesting? Appropriate?

I thought it applicable. I'll bow to the majority opinion...

I apologise for the article to those who feel as Andrew does.
Andy

1997\02\24@201348 by Andrew Warren

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Andy Burgess <RemoveMEaabEraseMEspamKILLspamcichlid.com> wrote:

> what about the content of the article as opposed to the source.
> Interesting? Appropriate?

   Could be both. Andy.  Can't really tell from the one message,
   though.

   Perhaps you should give us some sort of "Our story thus far..."
   synopsis of what you and Edward are trying to do.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - spamBeGonefastfwdspam_OUTspamRemoveMEix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

'Robot Walker'
1997\11\02@194322 by Eric Naus
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Greetings.

I have uploaded a very, very small AVI of my  robot walker going from
a resting position to a standing position ready for walking.
It uses 2 16C84's to control 12 servos (code is available on website).
The servos are controlled by a serial link to a PC.

http://webhome.idirect.com/~bine

Have Fun

Eric

' Info On Walkie Talkies'
1998\06\25@211501 by Travis
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I've been thinking about making a couple of walkie talkies.  If anyone knew
where i could get any info on them, i'd be appreciative.

Krager
.....KragerspamRemoveMEmindspring.com

' Info On Walkie Talkies'
1998\07\09@092126 by Harrison Cooper
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               Radio Electronics had an article a year or two back on
building your own.

                               ----------
                               From:  Travis
[SMTP:kragerspam@spam@MINDSPRING.COM]
                               Sent:  Thursday, June 25, 1998 7:09 PM
                               To:  EraseMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamSTOPspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
                               Subject:  <OT>  Info On Walkie Talkies

                       I've been thinking about making a couple of
walkie talkies.  If anyone knew
                       where i could get any info on them, i'd be
appreciative.

                       Krager
                       RemoveMEKragerKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTmindspring.com

1998\07\10@023943 by James Cameron

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Travis wrote:
> I've been thinking about making a couple of walkie talkies.  [...]

What I'd love is a way to re-use the nearly obsolete analog mobile
telephone units that will soon become fairly common garbage in
Australia.

--
James Cameron                              (spamBeGonejames.cameronspam@spam@digital.com)
Digital Equipment Corporation (Australia) Pty. Ltd. A.C.N. 000 446 800

1998\07\11@234811 by Martin McCormick

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       I don't know if those units are like the IMTS mobile telephone
units here in the United States, but if so, they could probably be
pressed in to amateur radio service after a _lot_ of modification.
The IMTS or Improved Mobile Telephone Service units that were the
ultimate in car phones between the sixties and mid eighties were
full-duplex transceivers that operated mostly in the 150 MHZ or 450
MHZ ranges.  The system could  either operate automatically in pulse
dial mode via frequency-shift keying or could be switched in to manual
mode and operated by a push-to-talk button.

       I know these type mobile phones were or maybe still are used
in other countries besides the U.S, so one might find a few here and
there.

       If the transmitter and receiver are digitally synthesized, it
may be possible to convert them to amateur frequencies and a PIC would
probably excellent for controlling them.  You will have to do
something such as remove the diplexer and install some kind of TR
switch because the diplexer was what kept the transmitter signal from
frying the input to the receiver when the system was operated in
full-duplex mode.  This diplexer is apt to be several cavities that
act as band-pass filters for the receiver and also band-stop filters
to keep the transmitter signal out since both are using the same
antenna.

       I would say that you may end up with a good transmitter and
receiver unit, but you will have to totally rebuild the control and
antenna switching systems.  It's worth it if you get one for free, but
I sure wouldn't spend anything more than $5.00 or $10.00 because the
project will involve a major outlay of elbow grease to whip that beast
in to the form you want for two-way radio type use.


Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group
James Cameron writes:
{Quote hidden}

1998\07\14@004903 by paulb

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James Cameron wrote:

> What I'd love is a way to re-use the nearly obsolete analog mobile
> telephone units that will soon become fairly common garbage in
> Australia.

 Interesting.  There are a *lot* of users asking for a reason why they
need be discontinued and why they should be forced to pay twice the
monthly charge to use the apparently *not* superior digital service.

 Heads could roll.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\07\14@074844 by Caisson

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> Van: Paul B. Webster VK2BZC <paulbspamspammidcoast.com.au>
> Aan: spam_OUTPICLISTspam_OUTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: Re: <OT>  Info On Walkie Talkies
> Datum: dinsdag 14 juli 1998 0:13
>
> James Cameron wrote:
>
> > What I'd love is a way to re-use the nearly obsolete analog mobile
> > telephone units that will soon become fairly common garbage in
> > Australia.
>
>   Interesting.  There are a *lot* of users asking for a reason why they
> need be discontinued and why they should be forced to pay twice the
> monthly charge to use the apparently *not* superior digital service.
>
>   Heads could roll.

Just a single reason : The company makes more mony.  No heads roll when
they just doubled the gain (from that marked-segment).

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

1998\07\14@170342 by v7

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>         If the transmitter and receiver are digitally synthesized, it
> may be possible to convert them to amateur frequencies and a PIC would
> probably excellent for controlling them.

If you want to do the OPPOSITE - I have implemented a remote control for
the Kenwood TM-V7 ham radio.  You can let it find channels, or follow a
hopping code scheme, or do other things that appear impossible with manual
operation.

The chip is a 100khz I2C slave and responds to several I2C addresses.  You
can send key strokes to the V7 by writing I2C.  I have made a table of all
existing key codes and their corresponding buttons on the display panel.

You can read back the current display contents (frequency, signal meter,
and so on) by an I2C read.

I have implemented a set of functions to parse the status data buffer and
keys.  They work on 8051 and on a desktop PC (ANSI C).  They offer
functions like v7SetFreq(434012500L) and v7SetSide(V7_SIDE_LEFT) and
similar.  Very easy to do the controlling.

The Kenwood TM-V7 has a packet radio connector for up to 9600 bps, to let
you receive all types of data!  It can be modified for extended frequency
band ranges, if your countries' law allows it.

It can be configured to receive two channels of the same band.  Frequency
hopping transmission are easy with my chip:  you can set the new channels
frequency while still receiving the previous.  Then at the instance of
hopping, you only need a single byte I2C write and voila, your DSP is fed
with the new channels' signal within milliseconds!


The V7 display panel is removable.  My remote control chip has to be
connected to the display connector.  The display panel is an output-only
device afterwards that lets you monitor what's going on (to debug your
software).  If you get a car kit cable from Kenwood, you don't have to
modify/solder on your TM-V7 or display panel.

All is removable then!

I've also made a circuit diagram for an interface that fits into those DB9
cases.  It is short proof and protects the V7 during development and
operation.  (It's easy to blow the V7 display port otherwise!!)

'Walkies:dig:anlg:study'
1998\07\15@172137 by paulb

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G.Daniel Invent Design wrote:

> As Paul's website will demonstrate, he seems an ideal candidate,
> (should he so choose) to investigate the radiation effects of
> analog/ digital in relation to typical/ equal power levels, and
> radiation effects on we, the users.

 Very much the converse for various reasons.  Firstly, a doctor and
epidemiological researcher are slightly disparate.  I see only a small
sample of people, say 600 "regular" patients and it must be understood
the potential incidence of cancer from cellular phones is *far* less
than one among this number.

 I might and indeed have considered researching certain possibly major
but so-far-overlooked causal connections in medicine and certainly there
must be plenty of these, but rarities, no!   Cancer is surprisingly
well-researched, and we well know there are so many *far* more dangerous
behaviours such as *smoking*, living in houses (true!) and driving cars
that it is a nearly impossible task to figure out any actual effect of
such radiation.

>  I understand that a cellphone company ran a test on mice and were
> understandably quiet when the cancer rate detectably increased,

 "Urban myths" are hard to deal with, aren't they?

> There's hard scientific fact in there somewhere to be distilled by a
> good keen man/ woman.

 Distilling blood from stones is *not* my bag, baby!

> Roll some heads Paul !

 Mine, in bed, is my chief concern.

 My apologies.  My medical training and my understanding of physics and
cause and effect in particular mean that I'm *not* a "true believer" in
curious (spurious) effects of non-ionising radiation.  What I *do* find
bizarre is that people should concern themselves with such things when
so many still *smoke*!

--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\07\15@182938 by David VanHorn

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>  My apologies.  My medical training and my understanding of physics and
>cause and effect in particular mean that I'm *not* a "true believer" in
>curious (spurious) effects of non-ionising radiation.  What I *do* find
>bizarre is that people should concern themselves with such things when
>so many still *smoke*!
>
>--
>  Cheers,
>        Paul B.


THANK YOU!    We have so many real problems to deal with, it's a pity
that some want to spend billions looking to see if there just MIGHT be
a problem somewhere else.

The interesting thing to ask is what is the AGREGATE effect of cellphones?
How many lives saved (and we can really document those), how much more
productivity?

Everything's got two sides to it, but I'm sure there are those who make a
living scare-mongering imaginary problems rather than facing real ones.

'Walkies:dig:anlg:study - NOT an urban myth.'
1998\07\16@072707 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> >  I understand that a cellphone company ran a test on mice
and were
> > understandably quiet when the cancer rate detectably
increased,
>
>   "Urban myths" are hard to deal with, aren't they?

In the above case (perhaps unusually) its not an urban myth -
its well documented and is relatively recent. An Australian
university did a study with proper controls where a cellphone
with  a designed on/off pattern was placed in appropriate
proximity to a colony of mice and results were compared to a
control sample. The results showed a statistically significant
increase in certain type(s) of cancer. The results were
poblished in a report but were not given the circultaion that
would have been expected normally. The result leaked out as such
results needs must (people being involved). All this is well
documented.

BUT - and there's always a but - while the methodology of the
study may not be in question (as I understand it) the
meaningfulness is. The mice were of a type which have been bred
to be especially susceptible to cancer (this being an accepted
way to get accelerated results over useful time periods), mice
ain't people, and exposure levels distances to aerial, exposure
times etc were ofd course questioned severely by those who would
rather the results were meaningless. This is not to say that the
results are not meaningless - just that there are both people
who will query results - some because they wish to ensure they
are being objective and others because they have vested
interests in skewing the results (which sort of people do you
think work for tobacco companies? :-).

Some details of the above may be wrong - I believe the majority
is essentially correct - it can be looked up if anyone
absolutely has to have the details.

>   My apologies.  My medical training and my understanding of
physics and
> cause and effect in particular mean that I'm *not* a "true
believer" in
> curious (spurious) effects of non-ionising radiation.  What I
*do* find
> bizarre is that people should concern themselves with such
things when
> so many still *smoke*!

I don't consider this to represent an objective position (but
there is no reason that anyone has to be objective if they don't
want to be.) The use of the term "(spurious)" here suggests fore
judgement.

I am an electrical engineer with a Masters degree and the
certain knowledge that I certainly don't know everything. I have
read casually but reasonably widely on this subject (first doing
a project wherer it was relevant in 1973) and I conclude that
"while it is by no means certain that non-ionising radiation
causes health problems I would not be at all surprised if it is
ultimately generally accepted that this is the case".

I suspect that those who insist loudly and strongly that there
is no problem whatsoever from non-ionising radiation (such as
the "scientists" at our national radiation laboratory and "world
experts" who are imported by NZ Telecom to tour the country and
tell everyone how safe the cell sites are) are selling their
scientific soul and may well look extremely foolish many years
from now.

In the mean time I still look right then left before crossing
the road (we drive on the wrong side of the road down under
here), don't use carbon-tetrachloride, don't smoke and try and
keep away from suspected carcinogens. I also do not carry a
cellphone in my left jacket pocket, would never buy a house
under high voltage power lines and have used a field strength
meter to establish the field strength of a nearby pylon line.

' Info On Walkie Talkies'
1998\07\16@090217 by aama–o

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(Sorry for my poor english)
I am very interested in building a system of remote control for a similar
RTX but old, it is the Kenwood TM-702, maybe can serve me as orientation the
work made with TM-V7?, i'm sure some control IC exists with bus I2C in
TM-702.


{Quote hidden}

'Walkies:dig:anlg:study - NOT an urban myth.'
1998\07\16@175041 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
A few years ago, I tried to find out more on this topic, spent about 2
days in the library, and had little luck. Sure there were lots of
articles, but not many good studies supporing either side. I agree with
Russell that a bit of money spent to put this topic to rest once and for
all would not be money mis-spent!!

Sean



On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\07\16@202200 by Steve Baldwin

flavicon
face
>  I agree with
> Russell that a bit of money spent to put this topic to rest once and for
> all would not be money mis-spent!!

As a smoker with a cellphone, living next to a power pylon in the
melanoma capital of the world, I am obviously living on borrowed
time. So if it's all the same to you folks, I would rather spend my
limited PICLIST reading time, reading about PICs and associated
problems.
:-)

Steve.

1998\07\17@024043 by g.daniel.invent.design

flavicon
face
Hi Russel,
thanks for the defence, I should have known better than to suggest a new
use of Paul's time in relation to cell phone radiation.

I'd better not mention mercury fillings in Paul's hearing, even my
favourite A.D."D." might provoke a hot response.

regards,
KILLspamgraham.danielspam.....xtra.co.nz

Russell McMahon wrote:
{Quote hidden}

' Info On Walkie Talkies'
1998\07\19@062127 by v7

flavicon
face
Hi Manuel (Manuel Castro Caamaqo), in <000001bdb0b9$02cd76e0$c0c37ac3@malone> on
Jul 16 you wrote:

> (Sorry for my poor english)
> I am very interested in building a system of remote control for a similar
> RTX but old, it is the Kenwood TM-702, maybe can serve me as orientation the
> work made with TM-V7?, i'm sure some control IC exists with bus I2C in
> TM-702.

I'm not sure about it.  The TM-V7 does NOT use I2C itself for the display,
it has proprietary and undocumented a 3 wire pseudo asynchronous full
duplex serial protocol.  It's my chip that translates this protocol (which
I hacked with selfmade tools and a logic analyser) to I2C (could have been
any other protocol as well).  I think (haven't tried) the TM-707 uses the
same protocol low-level wise but may use other high level data structures.

1998\07\21@065050 by aama–o

flavicon
face
Hi V7!

Yes, TM-702 uses some kind of propietary protocol via 3-wire, (Clock,
data-in, data-out), this 3 line are available in the microphone plug.

Some years ago i was in contact with kenwood technical service in Japan, but
they told me that this signal are not "control signal".

There are a "remote control unit" wich controls all TM-702 functions
(including volumen, on-off,etc...), that unit plugs ONLY onto the mic plug!.

?where can i get some description of protocol?


{Quote hidden}

'Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list'
1998\10\15@064542 by Kenny Baby
flavicon
picon face
Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:00:36

Your subscription to the PICLIST list is  due for renewal. If you wish to
remain  subscribed to  PICLIST,  please issue  the  following command  to
LISTSERVspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU  (or  RemoveMELISTSERVspamBeGonespamRemoveMEMITVMA.BITNET)  at  your  earliest
convenience:

                            CONFIRM PICLIST

You will  be automatically  removed from the  list if you  do not  send a
CONFIRM command within the next 7 days.

PS: In  order to  facilitate the  task, this  message has  been specially
formatted   so   that   you   only   need   to   forward   it   back   to
KILLspamLISTSERVspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU (or  @spam@LISTSERVSTOPspamspam@spam@MITVMA.BITNET) to have  the command
executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding function
of most mail  packages are supported, replying will seldom  work, so make
sure to forward and not reply.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
// JOB
CONFIRM PICLIST
// EOJ

1998\10\15@083031 by netmngr

flavicon
face
CONFIRM PICLIST

Kenny Baby wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\10\15@084521 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Manuel Martinez wrote:

CONFIRM PICLIST

{Quote hidden}

I have never seen such a lack of RTFM! Not only did the
first guy not read the message and screw it up, but the second
guy read the first screw-up and added another screw to it!

Are we going to see "ME TOO!", or "YES" messages now?

To confirm your subscription to the PIClist, send a message
to LISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVA.MIT.EDU with no subject line, and the
body text SIGNOFF PICLIST

You will be receive a confirmation message within 24hrs. Hit
reply and write the word 'ok' in the first line (without quotes).

--
Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
EraseMEtjaartSTOPspamspamRemoveMEwasp.co.za

1998\10\15@094201 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I don't mean to add to the excess baggage on the list, but is this for
real?! If so, when did this little policy change take place?

Sean


At 11:33 AM 10/15/98 BST, you wrote:
>Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:00:36
>
>Your subscription to the PICLIST list is  due for renewal. If you wish to
>remain  subscribed to  PICLIST,  please issue  the  following command  to
>spam_OUTLISTSERVRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU  (or  TakeThisOuTLISTSERVRemoveMEspam@spam@MITVMA.BITNET)  at  your  earliest
>convenience:

+-------------------------------+
| Sean Breheny                  |
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM|
| Electrical Engineering Student|
+-------------------------------+
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
EraseMEshb7RemoveMEspamcornell.edu  Phone(USA): (607) 253-0315 ICQ #: 3329174

1998\10\15@101650 by Gagnon, William A

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

1998\10\15@101850 by jamesp

picon face
----------
{Quote hidden}

1998\10\15@102104 by paulb

flavicon
face
Sean Breheny wrote:

> I don't mean to add to the excess baggage on the list, but is this for
> real?! If so, when did this little policy change take place?

 I find it *extraordinarily* implausible.

 1} The message is *through* the PICLIST, not from the listserver.  The
"refcard" specifies this in respect to the "CONFIRM" command, which is
indeed real.

 2} The message is from a totally unrelated domain.

 3} The message is from an unknown author.

 4} I've been subscribed since 15th May 1997, 17 months and it hasn't
been required in this time.

 5} The listserver has some intelligence regarding "fail to deliver"
messages.  Manual confirmation of continuation of subscription is not
required to clarify this.

 I think a lurker has been reading the refcard.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\10\15@133915 by Ricardo Ponte G

flavicon
face
CONFIRM PICLIST

----------
> De: Gagnon, William A <william.a.gagnonSTOPspamspamLMCO.COM>
> A: PICLISTSTOPspamspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Asunto: FW: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list
> Fecha: Jueves 15 de Octubre de 1998 10:02 AM
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Kenny Baby[SMTP:@spam@mctkeaw.....spamspamMAIL1.MCC.AC.UK]
> > Reply To:     pic microcontroller discussion list
> > Sent:         Thursday, October 15, 1998 6:33AM
> > To:   spamPICLIST.....spam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> > Subject:      Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list
> >
> > Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:00:36
> >
> > Your subscription to the PICLIST list is  due for renewal. If you wish
to
> > remain  subscribed to  PICLIST,  please issue  the  following command
to
> > LISTSERV.....spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU  (or  KILLspamLISTSERVspam_OUTspamMITVMA.BITNET)  at  your
earliest
> > convenience:
> >
> >                              CONFIRM PICLIST
> >
> > You will  be automatically  removed from the  list if you  do not  send
a
> > CONFIRM command within the next 7 days.
> >
> > PS: In  order to  facilitate the  task, this  message has  been
specially
> > formatted   so   that   you   only   need   to   forward   it   back
to
> > spam_OUTLISTSERVspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU (or  .....LISTSERV.....spamRemoveMEMITVMA.BITNET) to have  the
command
> > executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding
function
> > of most mail  packages are supported, replying will seldom  work, so
make
> > sure to forward and not reply.
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > // JOB
> > CONFIRM PICLIST
> > // EOJ
> >

1998\10\15@133915 by Ricardo Ponte G

flavicon
face
CONFIRM PICLIST

----------
> De: Gagnon, William A <spam_OUTwilliam.a.gagnonTakeThisOuTspamEraseMELMCO.COM>
> A: EraseMEPICLISTspamBeGonespamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Asunto: FW: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list
> Fecha: Jueves 15 de Octubre de 1998 10:02 AM
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Kenny Baby[SMTP:RemoveMEmctkeawspamBeGonespamspamMAIL1.MCC.AC.UK]
> > Reply To:     pic microcontroller discussion list
> > Sent:         Thursday, October 15, 1998 6:33AM
> > To:   @spam@PICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> > Subject:      Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list
> >
> > Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:00:36
> >
> > Your subscription to the PICLIST list is  due for renewal. If you wish
to
> > remain  subscribed to  PICLIST,  please issue  the  following command
to
> > TakeThisOuTLISTSERVKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU  (or  .....LISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.BITNET)  at  your
earliest
> > convenience:
> >
> >                              CONFIRM PICLIST
> >
> > You will  be automatically  removed from the  list if you  do not  send
a
> > CONFIRM command within the next 7 days.
> >
> > PS: In  order to  facilitate the  task, this  message has  been
specially
> > formatted   so   that   you   only   need   to   forward   it   back
to
> > KILLspamLISTSERVspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU (or  TakeThisOuTLISTSERVspamspam_OUTMITVMA.BITNET) to have  the
command
> > executed. Note that while the formats produced by the forwarding
function
> > of most mail  packages are supported, replying will seldom  work, so
make
> > sure to forward and not reply.
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > // JOB
> > CONFIRM PICLIST
> > // EOJ
> >

1998\10\15@162611 by Ohene Nana

picon face
In a message dated 10/15/98 6:45:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
RemoveMEmctkeawspamspamSTOPspamMAIL1.MCC.AC.UK writes:

<<  CONFIRM PICLIST >>
CONFIRM PICLIST

1998\10\15@185033 by THEODORE MYLENBUSCH

flavicon
face
----------
{Quote hidden}

'Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list -'
1998\10\15@234733 by Nicholas Irias

flavicon
face
I knew this message wasnt authentic because it didnt ask me to send my
credit card number to the list.

{Original Message removed}

1998\10\16@125624 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 16 Oct 1998, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:

>   1} The message is *through* the PICLIST, not from the listserver.  The
> "refcard" specifies this in respect to the "CONFIRM" command, which is
> indeed real.
>
>   2} The message is from a totally unrelated domain.
>
>   3} The message is from an unknown author.
>
>   4} I've been subscribed since 15th May 1997, 17 months and it hasn't
> been required in this time.
>
>   5} The listserver has some intelligence regarding "fail to deliver"
> messages.  Manual confirmation of continuation of subscription is not
> required to clarify this.
>
>   I think a lurker has been reading the refcard.

No, I think that PIClisters are invited to take the monthly have-you-rtfm
and IQ test. Since the MITVMA computer was very busy a British member of
the list volunteered to forward the announcement for them from his POP
account. Isn't this obvious ? BTW the proper net name for this is 'a
troll'. Apart from that, the forwarded message will generate an inordinate
amount of response info from LISTSERV, flooding the poor responder's
mailbox.

Do not fall for trolls. And don't get upset. Just flame away privately ;)

Peter

1998\10\16@213140 by terra

flavicon
face
CONFIRM PICLIST

----------
{Quote hidden}

'Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST dingba'
1998\10\17@104147 by paulb

flavicon
face
Peter L. Peres wrote:

> BTW the proper net name for this is 'a troll'.

 Sorry, ignoramus that I am (or just had an internal Thesaurus
match failure, late at night as now), it *was indeed* a Troll.

>  Apart from that, the forwarded message will generate an inordinate
> amount of response info from LISTSERV, flooding the poor responder's
> mailbox.

 Well, those that actually sent it to LISTSERV will pay the price that
way I daresay but the list members will never see their embarrassment.
I'm not even going to try it for fun (noting that it is after all,
harmless).

> No, I think that PIClisters are invited to take the monthly have-you-
> rtfm and IQ test.

 So what do you make the current tally who blurted it to the *list*.  I
think about ten or so?  Actually, that's not too bad a figure I suppose,
out of the 1800 you keep quoting (and who gave you *that* figure?).
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list'
1998\10\18@194000 by avs

flavicon
face
Kenny Baby wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\10\19@034205 by Wolfgang Kynast

picon face
Hi,

Can somebody please remove this Troll from PICLIST?

And PLEASE guys do not answer to this nonsens.

KB> Your subscription to the PICLIST list is  due for renewal. If you wish to
KB> remain  subscribed to  PICLIST,  please issue  the  following command  to
KB> STOPspamLISTSERVspam_OUTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU  (or  spam_OUTLISTSERVspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.BITNET)  at  your  earliest
KB> convenience:

Regards,
Wolfgang
--
PIC links:
http://people.frankfurt.netsurf.de/Wolfgang.Kynast/pic.htm

'How to simulate a walking waveform?'
1998\11\18@135237 by PHXSYS
picon face
Hello everyone

I have a wave form I am trying to simulate. The period is approx 50 msec.
There is a PWM output for 25 msec that varies the PWM value between 166-255
(65%-100%)

      Initial Example at 100% Duty (PWM=255)
               __________                              __________
               |                 |                     |                 |
               |  -25msec-     |                       | -25msec-      |
               |                 |  -25msec-   |                 |
_______|                        |__________|                 |_________
                   PWM         OFF             PWM
       __________                              __________
       |                 |                     |                 |
       |  -25msec-     |                       | -25msec-      |
       |                 |  -25msec-   |                 |
___|                    |__________|                 |_________
           PWM         OFF             PWM
    <-------SIGNAL WALKS TO LEFT ON OSCILLISCOPE SCREEN

My problem is that I have been able to duplicate this wave form exactly as it
appears on the scope, except that my signal stays pretty steady on the scope.

The signal I am trying to simulate walks to the left for a while stops, walks
to the right momentarily and then starts walking to the left again. The wave
form appears pretty consistant with minor variation in OFF-time ( <> then
25msec) and occasionsal ON-time pulses that exceed 25msec. I really had to
watch the scope very close as they seemed somewhat random.

I suppose that some kind of an integretor is being used to slightly vary 25
msec OFF-time and PWM time, while the duty cycle remains constant. I imagine
this integrator causes the signal to move (walk) across the oscilliscope
screen. I never done anything like this before.

Does anyone know how to accomplish this in a PIC?

Thanks in advance

Jon

1998\11\18@140517 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
PHXSYS@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> I have a wave form I am trying to simulate. The period is approx 50 msec.
> There is a PWM output for 25 msec that varies the PWM value between 166-255
> (65%-100%)


What is your scope synced to? To say the waveform is "walking" makes me
think
that you aren't synced. Pick one of the two waveforms as the "master"
and sync to
that, then see what you see.

1998\11\18@154642 by Dan Larson

flavicon
face
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:51:13 EST, EraseMEPHXSYSspamKILLspamAOL.COM wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Perhaps it is not the PWM of the second signal that is varying up & down, but
rather the frequency (or phase) is varying up and down slightly in relationship
to the top signal.

That could cause the "walking" you describe.

Dan

>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Jon
>

1998\11\18@183438 by PHXSYS

picon face
In a message dated 11/18/98 12:05:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
EraseMEdvanhornRemoveMEspamCEDAR.NET writes:

<< What is your scope synced to? To say the waveform is "walking" makes me
think
that you aren't synced. Pick one of the two waveforms as the "master"
and sync to
that, then see what you see.
 >>

I'll give it a try. I think you are right.

Jon

'[OT] .COD files (esp Walter Banks)'
1999\01\25@145013 by Scott Dattalo
face
flavicon
face
Primarily for Walter, but...

Could someone please send me a copy of Walter's pascal program that can
read .cod files. I seem to have lost (***) both Walter's email address and
the program.

Thanks,
Scott

(***)
Hucking Fackers polished my SCSI platters with an rm -rf /

1999\01\25@214149 by Eduardo R.

flavicon
face
> Should this be true for symbols too? Walter Banks sent me a pascal program
> that can read .cod files (the symbol file generated by mpasm), though I
> lost it (see why below). It would be relatively easy, though perhaps
> somewhat tedious, to ascertain the .cod file format from this pascal
> program. The more I think about this, the more I think that gpasm should
> generate symbol files in .cod format.
>
> What do you think?

I think that .COD file compatibility would be A Good Thing.  Could we
get the source again from Walter Banks?

--
James Bowman
.....jamesbspamspam_OUTsgi.com
-
To unsubscribe use @spam@gnupic-requestEraseMEspamspamcichlid.com
Archives http://www.scruz.net/~cichlid/gnupic-archive

At 11:21 AM 1/25/99 -0800, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Best wishes
                Eduardo R

AC Power Control project based on PIC
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Cove/4535
ICQ# 10909825
eriveraTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamumemphis.campus.mci.net

        CHILDHOOD CANCER
"Anyone whose family hasn't been touched by it
should get down on his knees every night and
thank the MAN upstairs"...........SAM COOPER

1999\01\25@221015 by Scott Dattalo

face
flavicon
face
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Eduardo R. wrote:

> To unsubscribe use RemoveMEgnupic-requestTakeThisOuTspamcichlid.com
> Archives http://www.scruz.net/~cichlid/gnupic-archive

Cross posting!

Walter has kindly resent the .COD format to me again.

I'll begin incorporating the format in to gpasm. (Though I doubt I'll be
ready by the time 0.0.8 is released).


Scott

1999\01\26@041605 by paulb

flavicon
face
Scott Dattalo wrote:

> I seem to have lost (***) both Walter's email address and the program.

 My!  How did fackers get at your disk?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\01\26@161024 by Scott Dattalo

face
flavicon
face
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:

> Scott Dattalo wrote:
>
> > I seem to have lost (***) both Walter's email address and the program.
>
>   My!  How did fackers get at your disk?

Easily!

But I'm not exactly sure. My strongest suspicion is that they hacked into
my personal isp (interstice) and were able to look at my .bash_history to
see that I often telnet to work. From there they probably obtained my ip
address and username - and if they had a sniffer running my isp, my
password as well. Getting user access to my machine was trivial. Once that
was done, there are known attacks to get root access.  I was running
Redhat 5.1 which is know to have a few security holes (imountd for
example, is one). So I suspect that exploited something there. Once they
had control of my machine, they were able to sniff my subnet and obtain
other people's usernames AND passwords. I know of have a dozen accounts on
other computers that had unauthorized logins. In one account on SRI's
main server they managed to create an ircbot.

I was able to capture enough information to obtain leads on how to capture
these pricks. Our security guys are looking at the evidence. We've been
successful capturing these kind of breakins before, hopefully the same
will be true this time.

My machine was the only that was maliciously destroyed. Fortunately I had
backups of the important  work-related stuff. And depending on you
perspective, I either tragically or joyessly losted 6 months of e-mail
history.

This time I'm better prepared... we'll see what happens.

Scott

'battery/wall xfmr switching'
1999\02\10@025130 by erik
flavicon
face
Hello,
I'm finishing up my first (?real?) PIC project. A chess clock. I'd like
to power it with either a 9V battery or a little wall transformer.

I'm guessing there is an IC out there to switch between supplies. Or
maybe there is some other trivial way to do this.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Erik

1999\02\10@043157 by Nigel Orr

flavicon
face
At 01:51 10/02/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello,
>I'm finishing up my first (?real?) PIC project. A chess clock. I'd like
>to power it with either a 9V battery or a little wall transformer.
>
>I'm guessing there is an IC out there to switch between supplies. Or
>maybe there is some other trivial way to do this.

Assuming there's a regulator on the PIC circuit, use a 9V battery and a 12V
supply, with a diode in series with each.  Then if the 12V drops below 9V,
the battery will take over supply.  Quick and dirty, and usually works just
fine ;-)

Nigel

1999\02\10@115943 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
erik wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I'm finishing up my first (?real?) PIC project. A chess clock. I'd like
> to power it with either a 9V battery or a little wall transformer.
>
> I'm guessing there is an IC out there to switch between supplies. Or
> maybe there is some other trivial way to do this.
>
> Any help would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Erik

 One way would be to use diode "Or"-ing (use a power supply that has
over 9V output - which would include most 9V wall warts!) - Common
cathodes, an anode to +9V and +WallWartIn, and the system picks the
higher voltage automagically.  Cheap, too.  (Do lose a diode drop's
worth of power - an FET or BJT circuit might be better if switching
between 2 battery sources.)  One project used this with a bridge
rectifier they had scads of, as a reverse voltage protection/spike
protector (connect the common anodes to ground, though Battery & Wall
Wart then need to share grounds.)  "Think Devious" <G>

 Mark

1999\02\10@165930 by w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman

picon face
suggestions:
- include a small relay (powered from the wall wart) which switches from
battery to mains
- use a switch: one side to the battery, the other side to the mains:
doubles as on/off when you pull out the mains.
regards,
Wouter.

----------
{Quote hidden}

1999\02\11@033737 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
Or you could even use a power socket with an NC switch built into one of the
contacts, as most fo them have.  Much easier, it's what the vast majority of
mains/battery appliances use.  (Although their long term reliability is not
terrific)


Mike Rigby-Jones
spam_OUTmrjonesspamspam.....nortelnetworks.com



{Quote hidden}

1999\02\11@152745 by paulb

flavicon
face
w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman wrote:

> - include a small relay (powered from the wall wart) which switches
> from battery to mains
> - use a switch: one side to the battery, the other side to the mains:
> doubles as on/off when you pull out the mains.

Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

> Or you could even use a power socket with an NC switch built into one
> of the contacts, as most fo them have.  Much easier, it's what the
> vast majority of mains/battery appliances use.  (Although their long
> term reliability is not terrific)

 Both these (or all 3) have a problem.  I'm just wondering whether he
really wanted a "no-break" switching to retain its RAM contents?

 My feeling is that you use a (Schottky) diode from the battery and
a bridge (or half-bridge) rectifier from the power transformer which
presumably will produce a somewhat higher voltage than the battery.
It doesn't have to be much higher though, as having the reservoir
capacitor *after* the diodes guarantees that any supply from the mains
keeps the battery diode biassed off.

 This presumes either that the PIC can tolerate the higher supply
voltage or you use a low-leakage regulator and that in either case, low
leakage reservoir capacitor after the diodes.  This is where things
actually become complicated.

 You don't generally need a switch in the mains supply; it almost
certainly uses so little power (or shuts itself down) that you can
afford to leave it running.  If it has no shut-down function, you will
however want a battery on/ off switch, but this can be a simple single
pole.  OTOH, you could place the switch between all the diodes and the
reservoir capacitor.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'Basic Clone...HIT A WALL'
1999\11\28@225427 by Mike M
flavicon
face
ok now i need some programmers to help me i know its a little off topic for the
pic list, but the project involves a pic :)

In the never ending attempt to create a basic stamp clone i have hit a wall and
a half.  How to deal with variables.  if the user wants to declare a variable ho
w would i work with that...????

Anyone out there have aol or aol instant messenger that i can chat with one on o
ne some day instead of email back and forth??

mikE

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GO AHEAD! http://cards.dynamitemail.com/index.php3?rid=fc-41

'General walker stupidity'
2000\01\20@003718 by Phu T. Van
flavicon
face
Hi, I'm planning a robot walker project and am frankly overwhelmed by
the options available :

1. Processor :
HC11 or PIC(16F84) ? I have access to a BotBoard and have recently
gotten the "no-parts" PIC programmer.
Well, apparently for some processor is strictly personal preference but
there is the obvious consequence of what programming language to use :
frankly, I would like to stay away from assembly because it seems that
the sine-calculations under assembly is something of a technological
miracle and major pain in the ass. But isn't it true that the HC11 has a
more diverse (read : complex) instruction set, which would be a set back
to the project in the long run ?

2. Serial communication :
Should there be 2 (or more?!?) processors involved, how would they
correlate their data input/output in a cooperative manner ? Again, pain
is not preferred. I understand that serial is one of the options. Are
there others ?

Any/all input is appreciated.

--Phu T. Van

2000\01\20@042231 by gdaniel

flavicon
face
The HC11 has a superior instruction set(easier to use, alows more
complex operations easily), considerable slower instruction operation
speed, more and better pheripherals, is more expensive and also hard to
get hold of in DIL (dual in line)

The PIC is in my experience more "cost effective", however if you are
looking at smaller quantities then cost may not be an issue.

PIC has a huge user support base i.e. this list and maths functions
should not be a problem (if you realy need them) as Microchip have
application notes and assembler examples. Microchip development gear is
available at low cost and the MPLAB assembler/IDE is an excelent mature
product.

Motorola do not (to my knoledge) provide any modern assemblers free with
68HC11 and the official development kits are not cheap.

Microchip have been slow to add FLASH program memory to their more
advanced products and Atmel have leapt into the gap in a flash, check
out their STK200 dev kit and AT90S8535 part, faster than motorola HC11
and PIC, lots of high speed registers and easy to use conditional jumps.
Very productive parts, assembler not as advanced as Microchip one
though.

Microchip parts prices have lately seen some hikes, my belief is that
this is due to large customer base who are unprepared to learn new
processor instructions such as Atmel's.


"Phu T. Van" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I suggest Atmel '8535, very fast, why use two processors as they will
waste pins talking to each otherregards,
Graham daniel.

2000\01\20@092055 by Wagner Lipnharski

flavicon
face
a) Sine-calculations was never a problem if you use a simple table.

b) You should not choose a microcontroller based only in the fact that
it is easier to program. Several other variables should be considered,
as market availability, growing (hardware/software), processing power,
documentation, tech stability (bugs and surprises free).

c) Be sure that nothing is simple (except to blink a led ?), and so you
will find several problems and solutions.

d) For a robotics project, select the chip that has more possible port
pins, several "k"s of flash program memory, high processing speed
(>15MHz), UART (and/or ISP communication), and so on.  Price is never an
issue (difference will be always few $).

e) as you say, "Pain" is not an option, you will find it ahead anyway.
The only way to avoid it; "ask somebody else to produce it for you".

f) Don't forget to see the AVR or 8051 family new chips.

g) Relax, smile and learn more about microcontrollers in general.

Wagner.

"Phu T. Van" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2000\01\20@131914 by Adam Bryant

picon face
I would argue for a distributed approach using many lower cost processors
rather than 1 expensive processor.  For the price of one HC11 whatever
processor you could purchase a 16F84 and a number of 12C508/9 OTP's.  The
8 pin PIC's (including some of the newer ones that have onboard A/D) are
perfect for motor/servo controllers, sensor controllers, communication
controllers, etc.  By distributing the processing required for motor
control and whatnot to the small/cheap PIC's, the master controller
(16F84) can concentrate solely on the higher level functions of whatever
behavior you want your robot to have.

We (myself included) tend to think too much in terms of one
microprocessor doing absolutely everything which usually ends up with
extremely complex code.  Whereas with the distributed approach, each
component (motor, servo, sensor) has a limited job to do that can be
coded much more simply.

Typical hobby walker robots use 2 or 3 servos, 2 touch sensors, and
possibly an IR ranging detector.  Use one 12C508 to control the servos, 1
508 to monitor the touch sensors, and 1 508 to handle the IR ranging.
Use a 16F84 as the master and tie them all together with I2C and you
would have a very powerful, flexible walker.

Just my $.02 worth,
Adam

On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:20:33 -0500 Wagner Lipnharski <wagner.....spam@spam@USTR.NET>
writes:
> a) Sine-calculations was never a problem if you use a simple table.
>
> b) You should not choose a microcontroller based only in the fact
> that
> it is easier to program. Several other variables should be
> considered,

<snip>
{Quote hidden}

<snip>

Adam Bryant (age 0x23)
spamBeGoneadamdbspamspam_OUTjuno.com
Parker, CO, USA
Robotics, RC Airplanes

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2000\01\20@134433 by Alice Campbell

flavicon
face
Be careful here,  you'r reinventing the...dinosaur.  I believe this is
how they were designed, the big Imperial walkers were so large
they needed a separate processor to run rear legs and tail, just
sent an occasional message to front brain that all was well in back,
head would look back occasionally to check status.

{Quote hidden}

'General walker stupidity: Divide and Conquer!'
2000\01\20@140323 by Thomas McGahee

flavicon
face
Adam has brought up a good point. Distributed processing is
a very useful technique. Each sensor/microprocessor combination
has its own private interrupt mechanism, and a means to
respond quickly to the local stimulus. Such local action might
include some form of immediate action such as movement towards
or away from an object, and two-way *communication* with
a Master CPU that controls the "big picture".

Other examples of specialized processing would be:

    An LCD controller that communicates serially;

    A "math co-processor" PIC that does all the math
      stuff, and which you communicate with over
      a serial line;

    A Data Ram that accepts an index number and then
      returns a sequence of data such as ASCII text
      string messages for the LCD, or Conversion Table Data;

    A Stepper Motor Controller that moves a stepper motor
      to an "absolute position". You tell it "X=12,345",
      and it moves from the current location to the one
      specified;

    A Servo Controller that accepts an ID and a Position value and
      then moves one (of several) servos to that position.


All of the above PIC based "distributed processing" functions already
exist. Many of them have been designed by members of this list. Sometimes
two or three low-end PICs can do a job better than one expensive cpu.

It is also often MUCH easier to program a Master CPU to control a
couple of "local intelligence" PICs than it is to try and program
a single PIC with limited interrupts to do all the tasks. As the
ancient Romans used to say, "divide and conquer".

Fr. Tom McGahee


{Original Message removed}

2000\01\20@153436 by Dwornik, Sebastian

flavicon
face
This falls right into my current robotics project. I will be using my
68HC11 as the master controller for a couple of PICs. Slight dillemma to
still deal with is the inter-processor communications (IPC). If I stay
with two processors, then serial (RS232) will suffice, but more
processors, then I need some form of network. This will be new to me.


> {Original Message removed}

2000\01\20@225659 by russellh

picon face
Alice Campbell wrote:
>
> Be careful here,  you'r reinventing the...dinosaur.  I believe this is
> how they were designed, the big Imperial walkers were so large
> they needed a separate processor to run rear legs and tail, just
> sent an occasional message to front brain that all was well in back,
> head would look back occasionally to check status.
>
> > I would argue for a distributed approach using many lower cost processors
> > rather than 1 expensive processor.

<snip>

First, WAYYY too much quoted material on this list.  Wastes bandwidth,
don't ya' know.

Second, he isn't talking about two controllers, two brains.  But more
like the servo loop muscle control your own body exhibits.  Spinal cord
reflex response level sub processing.

In the old cross your legs, doctor bangs under you kneecap with the
rubber mallet, he (or she) is testing your reflexes.  This is a servo
loop going back only to your spinal cord, not all the way to your
brain.  By banging on the tendon, he stretches the muscle.  The muscle
is not supposed to be stretched like that, and the "kick" is the servo
loop response, atttempting to put the muscle (and you leg) back where it
belongs.  So too, the 12c508's etc. would only be micro function
controllers, releaving the main controller of the need to waste clock
cycles on piddlin' little jobs like parking or ramping a servo.

Just as going to a Harvard archetecture frees up the data buss by
putting the program on a different one, using seperate processors frees
up the main processor to run the main program.  With only ocassional
intervention to deal with servos.  Kind of like interrupts, isn't it?  A
simple timer running independantly, and activating an interrupt when it
times out.  So the processor doesn't have to spend time, er, keeping
time.

Russell Hedges

2000\01\21@031110 by paulb

flavicon
face
Russell Hedges wrote:

> Just as going to a Harvard archetecture frees up the data buss by
> putting the program on a different one, using seperate processors
> frees up the main processor to run the main program.

 Unfortunately I am not totally sure that 12C508s or their ilk are
suitable.  To network these processors you need communications; to save
I/O you need serial communications, so you tend to need processors with
either hardware UARTs or hardware IÓC.

 "Baseline" controllers may not suffice.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

2000\01\21@034224 by gdaniel

flavicon
face
Russell Hedges wrote:
Russell's typing fingers appeared to be controled via an active mid
brain, I've <<cut>> his response to Alice.


In practice "pidlin little jobs" like controling servos are highly time
intensive, the "main program" is only a part time job although it may
use significantly more code.

Control of a servo requires periodic PWM calls or dedicated hardware
PWM, acuracy requires good timing. Synchronisation of multiple servo
signals allows for minimisation of timing overhead.

"Main Programme" is subject to timing response lags of interfaced
mechanical gear and makes decisions based on gradually changing data.

In digital networks, the main advantage of distributed processors is
reduction of cabling.


Dino's mid brain may have been required to speed up pterodactyl swatting
so as to deter gouge'n'gorge feasting.


Regards,
Graham.

2000\01\21@051250 by Russell Farnhill

flavicon
face
Hi all,

I am also working on a six legged robot.
The chassis is finished and I am starting on
the controllers, iam using a Handybaord(68hc11)
for the main brain and want to build a servo controller
capable of running 12 servo's (2 per leg), 12 ADC inputs
for position feedback of each leg and another 12 ADC
for monitoring current to each servo for detecting
jams and things like that, plus another 6 ADC for
some kind of pressure feedback from the feet, but
could maybe use the current consumption feedback
to detect feet on ground. I also want to add a
pan-n-tilt head to carry ranging sensors which
will also need an additional 2 servos and
2 ADC channels for positioning feedback.
This sounds like a lot of ADC channels but I
managed to design such a controller (not built or tested)
using 4 ADC lines and multiplexing them so
I could just have a looping program reading each ADC
inturn. The PWM signals for the servos where provided
by some 8 pin DIL chips called FT3?? something or other
by a place on the web called Ferro-tronics.com. These chips
could handle 5 servos at once and they also did a controller
chip that could handle 5 of the servo chips giving control of
25 servo's through a single serial line which went to the
master controller chip. all of this would
be controlled by a second stripped down Handyboard
with the servo controller board added as a expansion board.
The main brain would talk to the servo controller through
a SPI serial link. Phew now with all that out the way
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to build
a servo controller out of a few pics networked together
to make a single controller as the stripped down
handyboard would just be sending serial data to the
servo chips and monitoring 4 ADC port which where being
multiplexed.

Cheers,

Russ..

2000\01\21@062014 by Roland Koehler

flavicon
face
Hi Russell,

some suggestions:

1. Use 1 PIC (16F84 for ease of development, or 12Cxx for production) to
control 1 leg; 2 pins for the pulse width signals to the servos, 1(2) bidir.
pin(s) for communication with the main controller, 1 pin as an input for the
"heartbeat signal" from the main controller, and some for sensor inputs.
2. The main controller generates a fixed squarewave ("heartbeat") that
synchronizes all leg PICs; the rising edge is used by the leg PICs as the
timing signal to start the PWM pulses to the servos, at each falling edge
communication between controller and legs is performed.
The sync signal solves one problem of the low-end (leg-) PICs: servo control
and serial TX/RX are hard to do at the same time.
Communication could be done with IÓC or SPI-like ...

Having intelligent legs allows the controller to just say "put leg 3 down
until it touches ground", or even specify the desired force if you have an
analog pressure sensor with serial A/D for each leg. In a status scan (maybe
with a global address) the legs could report if the commands were executed
or what went wrong.

Cheers,  Roland.

2000\01\21@095503 by Wagner Lipnharski

flavicon
face
The name is "distributed processing", it was first used at IBM mainframe
computers 43XX family (internal subfunctions), later on spreaded with
inteligent computer terminals, today with your Internet home PC.  No one
even think to use a dumb terminal (VT52 or other) at home connected to a
mainframe anymore, isn't?

Question: If you produce a multi-processor robot system, that uses 5
microcontrollers, exactly the same type, and one will be the Master
processor, it will be an ellection to decide which one will be plugged
at that socket?  :)

Russell Hedges wrote:
[snip]
> Second, he isn't talking about two controllers, two brains.  But more
> like the servo loop muscle control your own body exhibits.  Spinal cord
> reflex response level sub processing.
[snip]

2000\01\22@062232 by John De Villiers

flavicon
face
Take a look at RS485. Maxim has some chips that can drive an rs485 line at
10Mhz provided the cabling isnt too far and youve terminated it correctly.
Your serial routines is almost identical to that of normal rs232 ( u need
one more bit for the address indicator - the parity bit of old ) .

John

> {Original Message removed}

'[OT] Wall Warts WAS: FDA & rechargable medical dev'
2000\01\25@164337 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
       While not answering the question... I have seen medical rated wall
warts. I believe they had a ground pin that was connected to an
electrostatic shield between primary and secondary.
       On the wall wart front... Anyone aware of a wall wart rated for OUTDOOR
use? I have an application where I need a 12V, 1A, 120VAC input wall wart
that is not marked "for indoor use only." I doubt it would be used in the
rain, but I think we'd have a hard time selling an outdoor product with
these indoor wallwarts.
       One more wall wart... How about one with a 3 prong US plug (hot,
neutral, ground) AND has the ground connected to the negative side of the
output? Most that I've seen seem to be like the medical one I described
above. The output floats (is not grounded).

Thanks!

Harold



FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

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2000\01\26@094900 by Barry King

flavicon
face
>         One more wall wart... How about one with a 3 prong US plug (hot,
> neutral, ground) AND has the ground connected to the negative side of the
> output? Most that I've seen seem to be like the medical one I described
> above. The output floats (is not grounded).

Harold,

I ordered a few of these once.  The product didn't materialize, so I
never followed through.  The manufacturer just considered it a
special output wiring.  They would have preferred to do a three pin
connector with the "green" ground as a seperate pin, but they were
willing to do a coax plug with the output return earthed.  Still CE
marked, too.  (That was my question!)  This was a baby (10 W, I
think) switcher.  The manufacturer was PowerBox.  Sold by RTE, 508-
879-8527.  DON'T tell him I sent you, he's still mad that the
quantity buy never happened :)

------------
Barry King, Engineering Manager
NRG Systems "Measuring the Wind's Energy"
http://www.nrgsystems.com
Phone: 802-482-2255
FAX:   802-482-2272







{Quote hidden}

'Wall Detector for Mobile Robot'
2000\03\20@090909 by Werner Soekoe
flavicon
face
Hi

Can anyone help: I'm looking for a circuit to be used to sense walls and
solid objects with for a mobile robot. I though of using optics, but what
will happen when you paint your
walls black???

Any help/circuit will be appreciated.

Thanks
Werner Soekoe
wsoekoespamspamTakeThisOuTglobal.co.za

2000\03\20@093259 by Alan Pearce

face picon face
>I though of using optics, but what
>will happen when you paint your
>walls black???

What about ultrasonic ranging?

2000\03\20@093718 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
part 0 1568 bytes
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Hi</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Can anyone help: I'm looking for a circuit to be used to sense walls and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">solid objects with for a mobile robot. I though of using optics, but what</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">will happen when you paint your</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">walls black???</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">You'll have a very dark, dingy room and a lost robot.&nbsp; Seriously, all practical surfaces will reflect some infra-red.&nbsp; Range may be reduced, but if you are just trying to construct an anti-collision sensor then range shouldn't be a problem.&nbsp; You might also want to consider sonar, you can perform ranging as well as object detection then.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Mike Rigby-Jones</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Any help/circuit will be appreciated.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Thanks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Werner Soekoe</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">RemoveMEwsoekoeRemoveMEspamglobal.co.za</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
</x-html>

2000\03\20@093724 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Werner Soekoe wrote:

> Can anyone help: I'm looking for a circuit to be used to sense walls and
> solid objects with for a mobile robot. I though of using optics, but what
> will happen when you paint your
> walls black???

Check this out -- I found something really interesting for that at the
Portland Area Robotics Society (PARTS) pages.  Someone there found a stud
sensor that looks really good for this, and the circuit is ridiculously
simple. Check out http://www.rdrop.com/~marvin/ and click the Projects
link, it's at the bottom of the page.  I'm going to try this one of these
days.

Dale
---
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
               -- Isaac Asimov

2000\03\20@102523 by Mark Newland

flavicon
face
If your just looking to fit one robot, try Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc.
Get yourself some old Poloroid cameras with the ultrasonic rangefinder built
in.  There is sites with the pinouts on how to hook them up (but I don't know
where they are).

Werner Soekoe wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2000\03\20@110004 by Dave Johnson

flavicon
face
> Can anyone help: I'm looking for a circuit to be used to sense walls and
> solid objects with for a mobile robot. I though of using optics, but what
> will happen when you paint your
> walls black???
Sharp makes several stand-alone IR ranging modules that are great for
this sort of thing. Go to
http://www.acroname.com/robotics/parts/parts.html, at the bottom of the
page.

BTW, Acroname is a great source for robot parts...

Dave Johnson

2000\03\20@112139 by teix1

flavicon
face
Hi Werner

You could use ultrasonic sensors. You can find interfaces for pics I think
in dontronics site, to allow the measurement of the distance: a tone burst
of 40kHz is generated with a 555 or with a pic and a tone decoder as the 567
detects the reflected wave front.The time delay is proportional to the
distance if the delay introduced by the tone decoder reaction could be
ignored.
Regards

Fernando

{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: Honda's walking robot'
2000\11\21@050528 by Jinx
face picon face
world.honda.com/robot

Specs, movies (Media Player/RealPlayer/Quick Time). Impressive

"+honda +robot" at Altavista throws up many links

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2000\11\23@161702 by Jinx

face picon face
Sony's new humanoid - 5kg (Honda's 160kg), does aerobics, talks,
15m/min walk

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/11/22/sdr3.idg/index.html

(more robots at bottom of page)

> http://world.honda.com/robot

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2000\11\23@174955 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
At 10:19 AM 11/24/2000 +1300, you wrote:
>Sony's new humanoid - 5kg (Honda's 160kg), does aerobics, talks,
>15m/min walk
>
>http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/11/22/sdr3.idg/index.html
>
>(more robots at bottom of page)
>
>> http://world.honda.com/robot
>


I saw that thing - keeps its head low to avoid bullets, and
walks like it has Parkinson's. And it "really" needs to do
aerobics - with mechanical muscles. And talks? - do you get
the usual 8 seconds?

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'[PICLIST] Re [OT]: Honda's walking robot'
2000\11\28@060312 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Honda & Sony walking robots

       http://www.edtn.com/story/tech/OEG20001122S0048-T


{Quote hidden}

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'[OT]: PC tail or is Jinx on walk-about'
2000\12\08@102632 by Arthur Brown
flavicon
face
Any body seen or heard from Jinx since the report of the honda robot
as he gone walkabout with the robot or indulging in his other hobbie
skip-diving?

Regards Art.

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2000\12\08@120742 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Art Brown wrote:
>Any body seen or heard from Jinx since the report of the honda robot
>as he gone walkabout with the robot or indulging in his other hobbie
>skip-diving?
>

Naw, I hear from him everynowandagain. NZers don't have any place
for walkabouts, anyoleways. Mostly, they get inaboat and head out
towards Samoa. And his main hobby is actually dumpster-diving - keeps
all the stuff he finds with his "friends" under the house - [does the
word s_____ring come to mind, perchance - :)].

- dan

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2000\12\08@163455 by Jinx

face picon face
> Any body seen or heard from Jinx since the report of the honda robot
> as he gone walkabout with the robot or indulging in his other hobbie
> skip-diving?
>
> Regards Art.

Aw, ya missed me (sniff, choke)

Busy doing community service. Apparently threatening nudists with a
sheet of Velcro IS an indictable offence. Whodathunkit. "Depilation
without due care and attention". Still, it was worth it to see them all
stuck together by their armpits

(real story - caught up in end-of-year project-finishing madness amongst
other things)

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2000\12\10@142909 by Lance Allen

picon face
Dan Michaels wrote:

> Art Brown wrote:
> >Any body seen or heard from Jinx since the report of the honda robot
> >as he gone walkabout with the robot or indulging in his other hobbie
> >skip-diving?
> >
>
> Naw, I hear from him everynowandagain. NZers don't have any place
> for walkabouts, anyoleways. Mostly, they get inaboat and head out
> towards Samoa. And his main hobby is actually dumpster-diving - keeps
> all the stuff he finds with his "friends" under the house - [does the
> word s_____ring come to mind, perchance - :)].
>
> - dan

Hmmmm
I resemble that, must be a West Auckland thing.
I thought I was not TOOOOOO bad on the useful (I know I'll need it the
day after I throw it out) junk dept but alas reality hit when I had to
remove my stash of goodies from my workshop in Psych and take it home
since all junk hidy holes are filled up in Engineering.
I sense an impending time limit on said items to be imposed by the better
half, or at least limited to a relatively smallish area of the garage.

The excuse that "its not nearly as bad as other people I know" doesnt
seem to wash and my 5 year old daughter identifies pictures of "daddy" in
books of mad scientists and eccentric inventors.
How did that happen?


Lance Allen
Embedded Systems Lab
CSE
Electronic and Electrical Engineering
School of Engineering
University of Auckland

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2000\12\10@152345 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Lance Allen wrote:

>Hmmmm
>I resemble that, must be a West Auckland thing.
>I thought I was not TOOOOOO bad on the useful (I know I'll need it the
>day after I throw it out) junk dept but alas reality hit when I had to
>remove my stash of goodies from my workshop in Psych and take it home
>since all junk hidy holes are filled up in Engineering.
>I sense an impending time limit on said items to be imposed by the better
>half, or at least limited to a relatively smallish area of the garage.
>


I'm sure Jinx will be happy to keep the stuff under his house
with the rest of his goodies. His ducks stand guard. Momma
had a new litter.

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2000\12\10@170410 by Arthur Brown

flavicon
face
Dan

story goes Jinx hire's Skips/Dumpsters and places them at locations all
around the place,
hoping fly tippers use them.

I had one when cleaning out garden shed and it was only half full and
thought I will clear loft and workshop out.after getting stuff out of the
loft went out to Skip to find it was full of other stuff dumped in so stuff
out of loft is now in shed.

Regards Art.

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2000\12\10@182425 by Jinx

face picon face
> I had one when cleaning out garden shed and it was only half full and
> thought I will clear loft and workshop out.after getting stuff out of the
> loft went out to Skip to find it was full of other stuff dumped in so
stuff
> out of loft is now in shed.
>
> Regards Art.

Ah, the basis of a good stage farce. All you need now is a French maid
who misunderstood something and a vicar with the wrong trousers on.

And an intermission during which you could sell over-priced snacks and
drinks

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2000\12\11@172512 by Steve Smith

picon face
In a message dated 10/12/00 23:26:25 GMT Standard Time,
spamBeGonejoecolquittKILLspamspamCLEAR.NET.NZ writes:

<< > I had one when cleaning out garden shed and it was only half full and
> thought I will clear loft and workshop out.after getting stuff out of the
> loft went out to Skip to find it was full of other stuff dumped in so
stuff
> out of loft is now in shed.
>
> Regards Art.

Ah, the basis of a good stage farce. All you need now is a French maid
who misunderstood something and a vicar with the wrong trousers on.

And an intermission during which you could sell over-priced snacks and
drinks
 >>
Obviusly wasnt in our street when the put a bin down here it fills and then
just as quick emptys again !!! Nobody see's but by the morning the junk has
changed hands we think there is lepricorns or summit similar..........

shame nobody wants a half functional gas cooker sat in the garden 4 weeks
nobody pinched that........

Steve....

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2000\12\11@201720 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
>Obviusly wasnt in our street when the put a bin down here it fills and then
>just as quick emptys again !!! Nobody see's but by the morning the junk has
>changed hands we think there is lepricorns or summit similar..........
>

Word is Jinx heads a worldwide syndicate of lepricorns.
[just ask his mum].

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'[OT]: Software firewall reviews.'
2000\12\31@165919 by Robert Rolf

picon face
ZoneAlarm works well, as does the Linksys router. I use both.

I found that the difference in the cost of power between the Linksys
(10W)
and a PC with 2 NICs (about 100W for a 5x86/133) paid for the Linksys in
about 2 years.

I also found the appended review to be most interesting. ONLY Zonealarm
is
immune to all common hacks, and it's FREE!
I use ZA's log files to complain to the various big ISP's whose
clients bang away at my machine (I get at -least- 50 hits/day from
people looking for open windows shares, since one machine is
in the DMZ and specifically collecting attack information).

Robert

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'[PICLIST] Thanks to Walter Banks'
2001\02\05@110547 by Mel Evans
picon face
Every now and then, I think about unsubscribing; but then, along comes
something like this:

>Date:    Sun, 4 Feb 2001 00:38:19 -0500
>From:    Walter Banks <RemoveMEwalterspamspamEraseMEBYTECRAFT.COM>
>Subject: Re: [EE]: high res DA challenge
>
> There is a novel PWM D/A that works surprisingly well although 12
>bits might be pushing the envelop. Use a random number generator
>that is random over the desired digital range. To generate a analog
>output generate a random number and compare it to the desired
>output number. If the random number is less than the desired number
>output a 1 otherwise output a 0 to an output pin. Feed the output
>pin through a low pass filter. Do this whenever possible in your
>code. It's advantage is that the code is asynchronous , waiting
>for a keystroke in a timer interrupt or a idle wait loop. I have
>used this in a DTMF dialer generating an analog complex wave form
>within CCTIT standards with only a non critical resistor and
>small filter cap.
>
>Walter Banks
>http://www.bytecraft.com

This idea isn't just novel -- it's brilliant.  Thank you, Walter, for
reviving my enthusiasm for the PICLIST.

Mel Evans    STOPspammevans1027.....spamaol.com

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2001\02\05@120957 by Mel Evans

picon face
Every now and then, I think about unsubscribing; but then, along comes
something like this:

>Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 00:38:19 -0500
>From:    Walter Banks <@spam@walterspamBeGonespamBYTECRAFT.COM>
>Subject: Re: [EE]: high res DA challenge
>
> There is a novel PWM D/A that works surprisingly well although 12
>bits might be pushing the envelop. Use a random number generator
>that is random over the desired digital range. To generate a analog
>output generate a random number and compare it to the desired
>output number. If the random number is less than the desired number
>output a 1 otherwise output a 0 to an output pin. Feed the output
>pin through a low pass filter. Do this whenever possible in your
>code. It's advantage is that the code is asynchronous , waiting
>for a keystroke in a timer interrupt or a idle wait loop. I have
>used this in a DTMF dialer generating an analog complex wave form
>within CCTIT standards with only a non critical resistor and
>small filter cap.
>
>Walter Banks
>http://www.bytecraft.com

This idea isn't just novel -- it's brilliant.  Thank you, Walter, for
reviving my enthusiasm for the PICLIST.

Mel Evans    spam_OUTmevans1027spamspamaol.com

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'[BUY]: Looking for 12V wall wart'
2001\05\16@140504 by Barnaby Thieme
flavicon
face
Hello
My company is looking for 6' power cables with a regulated 12V wall wart 600-800 mA -- the connection doesn't matter as we're going to snip it.  We need a couple hundred. I am having a surprisingly difficult time finding a supplier -- the density of products which ship with said connector makes search engines all but useless.  
Can anyone recommend a distributor or manufacturer?

A million thanks.

Barnaby Thieme
Product Engineer, SP Controls, Inc.
(415) 642-2600 ext. 108
spamBeGonebthiemeKILLspamspamKILLspamspcontrols.com

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2001\05\16@144332 by Dal Wheeler

flavicon
face
You didn't mention your pricing requirements; but have you tried surplus
vendors?  The ones I've looked at have several options; 200 units shouldn't
be that difficult.  Jameco?  BG micro?  Hosfelt?  Alltronics?  Halted?
{Original Message removed}

2001\05\16@145332 by Mark Newland

flavicon
face
Whats wrong with Digi-Key?  Look at P/N: T923-ND

Barnaby Thieme wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\05\16@145338 by James Paul

flavicon
face
Barnaby,

Check with Radio Shack.  They have a 12V/1000Ma Power Adaptor.  I
can't remember the cost for sure now, but I believe it's around
$15.00USD or so.  RS part number 273-1776.  It has a connector on
it that is a two pin side by side affair that is meant to receive a
target device specific connector.  But if you will be cutting off
the connector anyway, it doesn't matter.   Hope this helps you out.

                                           Regards,

                                             Jim



On Wed, 16 May 2001, Barnaby Thieme wrote:

{Quote hidden}

EraseMEjimspamBeGonespamspamjpes.com

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2001\05\16@163415 by Barnaby Thieme

flavicon
face
Thank you everyone for your assistance.

Sincerely,

Barnaby Thieme
Product Engineer, SP Controls, Inc.
(415) 642-2600 ext. 108
bthiemespam_OUTspamspamspcontrols.com

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'[OT]: VGA signal splitting...for a video wall like'
2002\02\12@025949 by James Tu
flavicon
face
Has anyone ever used hardware that allows you to split one VGA output from
a graphics card into multiple monitors...such as for a video wall.

I want to be able to specify, for example, a rectangle defined by pixels (1
- 100)x(1 - 200) goes to monitor 1 and the rectangle defined by pixels (101
- 200)x(1-200) goes to monitor 2, and so forth...these numbers are just
examples.

I've seen a video installation which used, what looked like, a rack
mountable unit which had multiple outputs and a video input...I think I've
heard that there are units out there that can take VGA or video signals and
composite them.
I just need to be able to work with VGA signals.

What are those units called?  Where can I get my hands on one?  Thanks!


James Tu
spamBeGonejames.....spam2-bit-toys.com

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2002\02\12@205003 by Brian Kraut

picon face
Check at http://www.extron.com.  I don't know if they have what you need, but
they have all kinds of vide amplifiers, matrix switchere, scan
converters, etc.  They should at least be able to point you in the right
direction.

You could also do a Yahoo search for video walls, but that would be too
easy.

James Tu wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\12@215256 by Jinx

face picon face
> James Tu wrote:
>
> > Has anyone ever used hardware that allows you to split one
> > VGA output from a graphics card into multiple monitors...such
> > as for a video wall.
> > I want to be able to specify, for example, a rectangle defined by
> > pixels (1 - 100)x(1 - 200) goes to monitor 1 and the rectangle
> > defined by pixels (101- 200)x(1-200) goes to monitor 2, and
> > so forth...these numbers are just examples.

I'm no video expert, but I reckon you could do this with micros.
Although my thinking is probably up the creek wrt to interlacing
and other technical vagaries. If picture-in-picture is doable by
a micro then so should video walling

It seems to me you don't need to monkey with the picture info
much, just direct it. Say you took the top left third of a display
(for example splitting the display over 3x3 screens). It will be
made up of pixels and lines. You could count the pixel clock
with a micro and direct, via a video switch, those pixels to
Monitor1. The middle third would go to Monitor2, the last 3rd
to Monitor3. Same for the next scan line, until you reach the
scan line that marks the end of the top third of the original
picture, then send pixels to Monitors 4 5 & 6, and 7 8 & 9 to
end

The tricky bit would be filling the monitors' displays. To do this
you would have to send 3 copies of the pixel and the line, so
expanding the 9th part of the original to a full screen width, in
the process reducing the resolution. But you can't display info
you don't have anyway

Sound OK, or should I wait for the other shoe to drop ? There
might be a "can't do" - maybe previously accessed monitors
need refreshing. I know people on the list have driven displays
with fast Scenix micros, perhaps it really is possible

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'[OT]: VGA signal splitting...for a video walllikei'
2002\02\13@054242 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Jinx wrote:
> > James Tu wrote:
> > > Has anyone ever used hardware that allows you to split one
> > > VGA output from a graphics card into multiple monitors...such
> > > as for a video wall.
> > > I want to be able to specify, for example, a rectangle defined by
> > > pixels (1 - 100)x(1 - 200) goes to monitor 1 and the rectangle
> > > defined by pixels (101- 200)x(1-200) goes to monitor 2, and
> > > so forth...these numbers are just examples.
>
> I'm no video expert, but I reckon you could do this with micros.

Uh huh. Something running around 100MHz, sampling RGB around 20MHz each
channel.
IOW 30us H time/640 pixels. Then you want to antialias the samples
since it sounds like you'll still want VGA out.

> Although my thinking is probably up the creek wrt to interlacing
> and other technical vagaries. If picture-in-picture is doable by
> a micro then so should video walling

PIP is done with specialized chips that get initialized by the micro.
Few micros can run at video rates.

> It seems to me you don't need to monkey with the picture info
> much, just direct it. Say you took the top left third of a display

Oh, you do have to monkey with the picture data quite a bit.
There is a lot of retiming to do if you want VGA in and out.

> (for example splitting the display over 3x3 screens). It will be
> made up of pixels and lines. You could count the pixel clock
> with a micro and direct, via a video switch, those pixels to
> Monitor1. The middle third would go to Monitor2, the last 3rd
> to Monitor3.

So then each monitor will show 1/3 of the image, with the remainly
8/9's blank.

> Same for the next scan line, until you reach the
> scan line that marks the end of the top third of the original
> picture, then send pixels to Monitors 4 5 & 6, and 7 8 & 9 to
> end

> The tricky bit would be filling the monitors' displays. To do this

Yep, thats the tricky part.

> you would have to send 3 copies of the pixel and the line, so
> expanding the 9th part of the original to a full screen width, in
> the process reducing the resolution. But you can't display info
> you don't have anyway

Which is why you have to antialias the data.

> Sound OK, or should I wait for the other shoe to drop ? There

It just dropped.
You have to think about your timing quite a bit more. What are
the other monitors doing while you're sending out the first monitor's
data? What is THAT monitor doing when the next monitors data is coming
out. The CRT scan doesn't stop just because you don't have any video
for it to display.

> might be a "can't do" - maybe previously accessed monitors
> need refreshing. I know people on the list have driven displays
> with fast Scenix micros, perhaps it really is possible

It's quite possible, but your approach is too simplistic to work.

You have time dialate the incoming data so that each 1/3 line is a
full line time on the outgoing monitor. You have to replicate that
line 3 (or 4) times in order to fill the vertical space, and to maintain
the aspect ratio. The cheapest way to do this is with 3 x Analog
CCD chips (that don't seem to be made anymore). But you also have to
have enough memory to capture the incoming lines while you're busy
outputing the earlier ones x3.
And then you have
to do some filtering so that you don't see huge square pixels on the
monitors.

If you are willing to hack your VGA driver so that the data gets
written to the screen in a special format, it IS possible to do
3x3 or 4x4 screen with nothing more than sample and holds (Really.
I've already prototyped it, but didn't see a big market for it so
never took it to production).

Robert

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2002\02\13@054915 by Smith Simon

flavicon
face
Could you not just send the original image to each of the monitors and try
to isolate a specific region on a controller for each screen, that way you
should be able to just connect more and more chips together and get it to
auto configure the screen divides.


{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: VGA signal splitting...for a videowalllikein'
2002\02\13@071628 by Jinx

face picon face
> > I'm no video expert, but I reckon you could do this with micros.
>
> Uh huh

Robert, you have my permission to confirm that I really am
no video expert. Although for a noddy I think I got reasonably
close for just a pencil sketch. As you point out, there are
some things best left to purpose-built chips (DACS, ADCs
etc) I wouldn't expect a micro to be able to do all that RGB
sampling), it just simply hasn't got the muscle. Fortunately
in these multimedia days, there are plenty of video ICs that
could do the donkey work

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'[OT]: VGA signal splitting...for a video walllikei'
2002\02\14@124040 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
I do not know what your resources are but fyi a commercial scan converter
starts at $500 and there seems to be no end to it. That is the price of a
cheap computer or a moderately expensive XVGA card with extras (like a
proper video output that can be fed to a video wall splitter that is much
cheaper than $500 probably).

hope this helps,

Peter

PS: Hint: usually buying parts off the shelf to build something highly
optimized like $SUBJECT will end up costing much more than the finished
product, even if development time is not counted in. So the short answer
is probably, look into high speed FPGAs with capability to interface to
SRAM or VRAM (and do not try to save too much money imho). You can
probably achieve 50MHz sampling using a 100MHz clock on the FPGAs and 10ns
RAM.

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'[OT]: How does a wall "Stud Finder" work?'
2002\02\18@142029 by Kevin Fisk

flavicon
face
Anyone out there know how a wall "Stud Finder" works? I imagine a coil
with some sort of level detection but I am curious.

Cheers,

Kevin

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2002\02\18@143723 by Walter Banks

picon face
Very short range Radar. Look at the Lawrence Livermore Lab
web site. It is very clever.

w..

Kevin Fisk wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\18@144132 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

flavicon
face
yeah coil and  a very sensitive circuit..
this is the right and the only way

Tal

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [PICLISTRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On
Behalf Of Kevin Fisk
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:18 PM
To: spamPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [OT]: How does a wall "Stud Finder" work?


Anyone out there know how a wall "Stud Finder" works? I imagine a coil
with some sort of level detection but I am curious.

Cheers,

Kevin

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2002\02\18@150711 by David Koski

flavicon
face
I can see how that would work for a steel stud.  But wood?

David

On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:38:49 +0200
Tal Bejerano - AMC <kooterspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTZAHAV.NET.IL> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\18@151553 by Tal Bejerano - AMC

flavicon
face
wood studs in wall? maybe plastic, then no coil help :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [spam_OUTPICLIST@spam@spamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On
Behalf Of David Koski
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 10:06 PM
To: spamPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: How does a wall "Stud Finder" work?


I can see how that would work for a steel stud.  But wood?

David

On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:38:49 +0200
Tal Bejerano - AMC <@spam@kooterspam_OUTspamZAHAV.NET.IL> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\18@152414 by Eoin Ross

flavicon
face
They pick up screws and nails

>>> .....kooterspam.....ZAHAV.NET.IL 02/18/02 03:13PM >>>
wood studs in wall? maybe plastic, then no coil help :-)

Subject: Re: [OT]: How does a wall "Stud Finder" work?
I can see how that would work for a steel stud.  But wood?
David

> Tal
> Anyone out there know how a wall "Stud Finder" works? I imagine a coil
> with some sort of level detection but I am curious.
> Cheers,
> Kevin

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2002\02\18@153051 by Kevin Fisk

flavicon
face
Thanks Walter, I looked and came up with MIR. Very cool.

Incidentally I had a moment of brilliance (or rather the opposite) and
went onto Google and typed (amazingly) "Stud Finder Circuit" and came up
with...

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question271.htm

Title: I have an electronic stud finder and I am amazed at how well it
works. How does it know where the studs are?

Sorry for bothering the list - should have had this moment of
'brilliance' first.

Cheers,

Kevin


Walter Banks wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\18@153055 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Differential Capacitance.
Basically 3 plates in a row hooked up to monostables. The difference in
capacitance between the middle and outter plates is sensed and displayed.
Stud finders also find patches in wallboard because the repair has a
different dielectric constant than normal wall.

Great invention. Can find pipes and wires too, if they're close enough to
the wall. Zircon also has a micropower radar based unit for use in concrete.
Has a PIC in it <G>.

Robert

Tal Bejerano - AMC wrote:
>
> wood studs in wall? maybe plastic, then no coil help :-)
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\02\18@153059 by hard Prosser

flavicon
face
I have seen designs for 3 different methods. All are based on a small
change in the received signal. You "calibrate" to a non-stud position &
then a small change from this can be used to identify a stud.

Ultrasonic - Uses the reflection phase shift I think
Capacative - Uses the small difference in diaelectric constant to detect
the higher density material behind the cladding.
Inductive - Uses the change in Loss angle - I think - to determine the
position.

For metal studs,  some cable locators can also be used I believe.

Richard P




I can see how that would work for a steel stud.  But wood?

David

On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:38:49 +0200
Tal Bejerano - AMC <spamkooterKILLspamspamZAHAV.NET.IL> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\18@153426 by Al Williams

flavicon
face
The electronic ones don't require metal.

Read http://www.howstuffworks.com/question271.htm

Al Williams
AWC
* Floating point A/D
http://www.al-williams.com/awce/pak9.htm



> {Original Message removed}

2002\02\18@153856 by Jim

flavicon
face
These 'stud finders' actually find studs - they
work on the principle that a piece of drywall
with a stud it behind presents a much different
dielectric constant than a piece of drywall
without dry wood behind it.

An oscillator is constructed such that at least
some portion of both plates of a capacitor that
comprise part of a tuned circuit are presented
to the wall.

A 'reference null' is established first on a
piece of drywall that does not have wood
behind it - then a search for a stud can
commence.

Jim



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tal Bejerano - AMC" <RemoveMEkooterRemoveMEspamZAHAV.NET.IL>
To: <KILLspamPICLIST.....spamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: How does a wall "Stud Finder" work?


> wood studs in wall? maybe plastic, then no coil help :-)
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\02\18@154754 by David P. Harris

picon face
There's a great one on the web--  consists of a 555 timer with an antennae
feeding a PIC (So I can change the header!). The PIC calibrates to teh freqy
when you turn it on, then reports changes in the freqy.  I have a bookmark
somewhere...if anyone wants it.
David

Jim wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2002\02\18@155820 by Vern Jones

flavicon
face
David,

It finds the nails driven onto the wood stud..., unless the nails are
non-metalic....

Vern

Tal Bejerano - AMC wrote:
>
> wood studs in wall? maybe plastic, then no coil help :-)
>
> {Original Message removed}

2002\02\18@160137 by Jim

flavicon
face
Those 'antennae' don't *quite* (wincing in agonizing pain
now as an RF-head) as actual antennas - capacitive probes: yes!

Thanks for the info though.

Jim

{Original Message removed}

2002\02\18@161008 by Rick C.

flavicon
face
You're right!
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question271.htm
Rick

Jim wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2002\02\18@171843 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Mon, 18 Feb 2002, David P. Harris wrote:

> There's a great one on the web--  consists of a 555 timer with an antennae
> feeding a PIC (So I can change the header!). The PIC calibrates to teh freqy
> when you turn it on, then reports changes in the freqy.  I have a bookmark
> somewhere...if anyone wants it.

I saw one like that on the PARTS web site (Portland Area robotics club), I
think.  Someone had adapted one for use as a proximity detector for
robots, very cool.

http://www.rdrop.com/users/marvin/other/otherprj.htm

Dale

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2002\02\18@194736 by David P. Harris

picon face
Yeah, that's the one!
Sorry for the loose usage of antenna - that's what they used :-(
Anyway, the stud sensor is at the very bottom of that website.
David

Dale Botkin wrote:

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2002\02\18@210655 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Those 'antennae' don't *quite* (wincing in agonizing pain
> now as an RF-head) as actual antennas - capacitive probes: yes!

I thought they were more inductive.  The conductive material in the nail
effects the AC magnetic field near it, which causes a slight change in
apparant inductance of a coil, which causes a slight change in the frequency
of an oscillator that is sensitive to the coil inductance.

I suppose one could conceive of systems that did use an antenna, but it
would definitely be operating in near-field, which is not the traditional
mode for what most people call an "antenna".


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, spam_OUTolinspam_OUTspamRemoveMEembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\02\18@214311 by Jim

flavicon
face
  "The conductive material in the nail"

What nail?

We're dealing with wall-board (we just call it "sheet rock"!) and
studs - real wooden studs! No nails!

These device do indeed work on the principle of dielectric
differences ...

Jim



{Original Message removed}

2002\02\18@215613 by Larry Williams

flavicon
face
The one I bought consists of a magnet on a pointer. Move the thing
around, find a nail, stud found!

David Koski wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2002\02\18@220105 by Jim

flavicon
face
You bought a 'nail finder'.

The question now is - how dead-on was the nail
to the stud?

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Williams" <spamwizzzard@spam@spamBELLSOUTH.NET>
To: <PICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: How does a wall "Stud Finder" work?


{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\18@232420 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Mon, 18 Feb 2002, Larry Williams wrote:

> The one I bought consists of a magnet on a pointer. Move the thing
> around, find a nail, stud found!

Unfortunately if someone like me nailed up the drywall, you may have just
found one edge of said stud.  Fortunately I don't build houses for a
living.  I prefer the cpacitive/inductive/whatever type that finds the
edges and the middle of the stud.

Dale

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2002\02\19@003851 by Larry Williams

flavicon
face
I didn't build it, just bought it to see if it worked. Give the people
that built it the grief. Someone asked how they worked. I had one,
that's how it worked, I responded with the low tech info I had.  I guess
you could tack a pic to the pointer and make it work better.

Dale Botkin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\19@013716 by Larry Williams

flavicon
face
Sorry, but the package said "Stud Finder". If you have nails, you
usually have studs. If in doubt, just tap it with a hammer and you can
find the center of the stud just by echolocation. Use your ears.

Jim wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > > > {Original Message removed}

2002\02\19@082646 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
>    "The conductive material in the nail"
>
> What nail?
>
> We're dealing with wall-board (we just call it "sheet rock"!) and
> studs - real wooden studs! No nails!
>
> These device do indeed work on the principle of dielectric
> differences ...

I didn't know there were devices that did this.  I thought most "stud
finders" really found the nails in the studs.  I'll have to go to the local
hardware store and have a look.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, olinspamspam_OUTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\02\19@105531 by Jim

flavicon
face
  "Use your ears."

Hey!

I've been using that technique for years - and on roofs
too, to find the supporting 2 x 6 sloping members for
putting up roof-mounted antenna tipods and guy-wire
anchors.

You would be surprised how ACCURATE tapping with a
hammer can be!

On much of this you are preaching to the choir - and
it's still a 'nail finder' no matter the manufacturers
labeling (perhaps they should be compelled to the 'truth
in labelling laws!).

You also realize that there are a lot of us on the PIC
list that are after the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth (on some days) - so don't let
our pointed addresses get too deeply under your skin.

Stay light(hearted).

Jim

PS. I (this is just *me* now) wouldn't call it "echo
location", but rather, I look for a change in 'tonal
quality' from tapping wood (when doing a roof anyway)
with no support behind it to wood with a 2 x 6 behind
it. Again, that's just *me*.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Williams" <spam_OUTwizzzardTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamBELLSOUTH.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLIST@spam@spamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: How does a wall "Stud Finder" work?


{Quote hidden}

> > > > > {Original Message removed}

2002\02\19@124932 by John Walshe

flavicon
face
If you want to search for the nails then you could play with the CS209A. I
can't remember who makes it but it is ideal for  short range metal
detection -> it'll find those buried wires and pipes also!

John

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2002\02\19@180931 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>The one I bought consists of a magnet on a pointer. Move the thing
>around, find a nail, stud found!

;-). This is the new version used since the knuckle-knocking method was
obsoleted <g> Also never use a tool handle for knocking to find the
heavier sound of the stud ... it's 'inappropriate'. You have to use proper
certified electronic tools.

Grid dip meters can be used to find hollows, pipes and also metal in
walls.  The exposed coil is sensitive to both E and H perturbations. I did
this and it works fine.

Peter

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'[OT]: XP/Firewalls/raw sockets'
2002\02\26@054636 by D Lloyd

flavicon
face
Hi,

Just a quick question about those in the know about Windoze raw sockets and
firewalls. I've asked several firewall suppliers (Tiny, etc) how their
products cope with raw sockets, i.e. whether the firewall covers only the
TCP/IP stack or whether they make some attempt to protect against raw
socket accesses, too. None of them are forthcoming on this issue which only
leads me to think that they do not protect and that you are quite exposed
on a raw socket system, in terms of trojans/spyware/etc even with such a
firewall (ok, yes, you are exposed anyway as it is not difficult to send
data out via browsers and such like but that is another issue).

Anyone have any comments on this subject, preferably minus ones involving
"switch to Linux/*nix" ;-)?

Regards,
Dan

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2002\02\26@082547 by michael brown

flavicon
face
> Just a quick question about those in the know about Windoze raw sockets
and
> firewalls. I've asked several firewall suppliers (Tiny, etc) how their
> products cope with raw sockets, i.e. whether the firewall covers only the
> TCP/IP stack or whether they make some attempt to protect against raw
> socket accesses, too. None of them are forthcoming on this issue which
only
> leads me to think that they do not protect and that you are quite exposed
> on a raw socket system, in terms of trojans/spyware/etc even with such a
> firewall (ok, yes, you are exposed anyway as it is not difficult to send
> data out via browsers and such like but that is another issue).

Raw sockets (on your pc) are not a threat to *your* computer.  They are a
serious threat to the rest of the world.  Unfortunately, most routers and
personal firewall systems don't seem to care if the source ip address is
believable.  If ISP's would only implement some simple filtering, ip address
spoofing would become allot less effective.  MS demonstrated 0
responsibility in addressing the issues that raw sockets present.  In
distributed DOS attacks, there is no way to protect yourself from spoof
attacks and still remain on the internet.  If you can't tell the "good guys"
from the "bad guys" there's not much you can do to filter out the bad ones.

> Anyone have any comments on this subject, preferably minus ones involving
> "switch to Linux/*nix" ;-)?

I won't say it then. ;-)

> Regards,
> Dan

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2002\02\26@085359 by D Lloyd

flavicon
face
part 1 3895 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi,

I did follow the Steve Gibson vs Microsoft vs detractors debate about IP
address spoofing but I don't see that to be much of a concern for my
personal security - I doubt that someone would want to expend the effort in
performing a DDOS attack on my poor, lowly 56K dialup connection (although
I might be a bit annoyed if my machine was to take part in an attack). What
I am worried about is an IP-address spoofed script-kiddie, using a PC while
mummy and daddy are out shopping, with a "point and click" hack program
that can access my machine without tripping a firewall. Of course, I could
just attempt to keep the machine trojan free but I thought I would try to
look at the problem from this approach.

Perhaps I misunderstand how raw sockets work but the stack diagram that I
saw indicated that any application may use a raw socket via the kernel.

App<-------------------------------a---->Kernel<----b---->network layer
(Raw socket approach -  Path 1)
App<-------> TCP/IP stack--a---->Kernel<----b---->network layer    (Typical
approach - Path 2)

(From what I understand, any application may use either path in Windows XP)

Therefore, is it not possible for an application to reside on your PC that
can communicate via it's own protocol using raw sockets?  - as I said, I'm
thinking primarily of trojans and such like. My question to the firewall
people was where did their firewall protection fit in - was it at point a
(and did the firewall cover both routes) or point b in the diagram. I never
actually had an answer categorically stating that this is not an issue at
all for raw sockets and that it did not matter from those people so it
would be nice to hear that I do have the wrong end of the stick.

Regards,
Dan





(Embedded     michael brown <.....n5qmgTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEAMSAT.ORG>TakeThisOuTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
image moved   27/02/2002 01:21
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To:   PICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
Subject:  Re: [OT]: XP/Firewalls/raw sockets

Security Level:?         Internal


> Just a quick question about those in the know about Windoze raw sockets
and
> firewalls. I've asked several firewall suppliers (Tiny, etc) how their
> products cope with raw sockets, i.e. whether the firewall covers only the
> TCP/IP stack or whether they make some attempt to protect against raw
> socket accesses, too. None of them are forthcoming on this issue which
only
> leads me to think that they do not protect and that you are quite exposed
> on a raw socket system, in terms of trojans/spyware/etc even with such a
> firewall (ok, yes, you are exposed anyway as it is not difficult to send
> data out via browsers and such like but that is another issue).

Raw sockets (on your pc) are not a threat to *your* computer.  They are a
serious threat to the rest of the world.  Unfortunately, most routers and
personal firewall systems don't seem to care if the source ip address is
believable.  If ISP's would only implement some simple filtering, ip
address
spoofing would become allot less effective.  MS demonstrated 0
responsibility in addressing the issues that raw sockets present.  In
distributed DOS attacks, there is no way to protect yourself from spoof
attacks and still remain on the internet.  If you can't tell the "good
guys"
from the "bad guys" there's not much you can do to filter out the bad ones.

> Anyone have any comments on this subject, preferably minus ones involving
> "switch to Linux/*nix" ;-)?

I won't say it then. ;-)

> Regards,
> Dan

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part 2 165 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode)

part 3 154 bytes
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2002\02\26@163010 by mooseman

flavicon
face
as far as i know, the packets on the receiving end are no different. the
difference is on the sending end. it revolves around raw sockets being able
to have information spoofed before they get sent out. normally, the TCP stack
will fill in things like the sending IP etc, but raw sockets allow a bad guy
to more easily build his own tcp/ip compliant packet containing bogus sending
IP information.

but on the receiving end, the packet still complies with the tcp format. it
just could have some bogus information in it leading you to believe the
packet came from somewhere it didn't.

btw, linux/unix and mac os X have raw socket support.

so, someone correct me if i am wrong, but it really shouldn't make any
difference to your firewall whether is was sent from a machine utilizing raw
sockets or not. it just allows the less technical hacker or perhaps script
kiddie to cause chaos more easily.

moose.

On February 26, 2002 02:40 am, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\02\26@163746 by mooseman

flavicon
face
ok, looking at it this way, it would be easier for a rogue program, once
installed on your machine, to build its own packet and fire it out.
but you could always do this.
it was just more difficult because you had to deal with building your own
device driver first.

of course, the key is 'once installed'. so from the outside, trying to get
in, there is no difference.

a port is either open or its not. raw or not raw makes no difference that
way. you have to have something listening in order to exploit a weakness.
unless of course it is some kind of bogus flaw in the stack implementation.

my two cents worth.
moose.

On February 26, 2002 05:44 am, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

----------------------------------------
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; charset="us-ascii";
name="pic14460.pcx"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Description:
----------------------------------------

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2002\02\26@165849 by Eoin Ross

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face
The big problem with having raw IP address capabilities in more hands is that it is likely to lead to more DoS attacks etc because more people feel they will be able to carry out these attacks with impunity because The real IP address of The attacker will not be revealed.
While it may not affect you on your own PC much it has The potential to cause a huge strain on internet commerce and even what we do for business - we may be unable to access web sites for device info or receive e-mail promptly etc.

Much The same way if someone downs all The traffic lights in America ... The person with their car/4wd while not using The road network will be fine for personal safety/ease of travel ... but as soon as they try to use The network they can't go anywhere as easily as before.

<snip>
On February 26, 2002 05:44 am, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

<snip>

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'Fwd: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST '
2002\09\12@094112 by Tim Corey
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Received: from mitvma.mit.edu
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From:         "L-Soft list server at MITVMA.MIT.EDU (1.8d)"
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Subject:      Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list
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X-LSV-ListID: PICLIST

Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:06:48

Your subscription to the PICLIST list is  due for renewal. If you wish to
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LISTSERVspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU at your earliest convenience:

                            CONFIRM PICLIST

You will  be automatically  removed from the  list if you  do not  send a
CONFIRM command within the next 15 days.

PS: In  order to  facilitate the  task, this  message has  been specially
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2002\09\12@100611 by cdb

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face
Okey Dokey

I'm sure I did what it said and this is what I got back?
Tried three slighty different version but at least the answer was the
same 3 times.

Colin


--- Original Message ---
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Cc:
Sent: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:48:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Fwd: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list

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2002\09\12@103330 by M. Adam Davis

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Some of your recent messages have been HTML.  Perhaps you're sending
html messages to the list server?

-Adam

cdb wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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'[OT]: RE: Renewal of your subscription to the PICL'
2002\09\12@114707 by Wagner R. Teixeira

flavicon
face
Send a pure text, no-subject message to EraseMElistservEraseMEspammitvma.mit.edu
In the body only 2 words, without the quotas: "CONFIRM PICLIST"

> {Original Message removed}

'Fwd: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST'
2002\09\12@125131 by Dale Botkin

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face
Folks, I will tell you now, you will have to read and follow instructions.
Sending your renewal message to the PICList will get you dropped, as it
has to be sent *TO THE LIST SERVER ADDRESS SPECIFIED*,
listservTakeThisOuTspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu.

Dale
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2002\09\12@125332 by Dale Botkin

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face
If you get that, delete all but the last three lines from the forwarded
message.  All it needs to contain is the command itself.

Dale
---
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Fusistance is retile.
Your ass will be laminated.

On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, cdb wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\09\12@144547 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
At 11:51 AM 9/12/02 -0500, Dale Botkin wrote:
>If you get that, delete all but the last three lines from the forwarded
>message.  All it needs to contain is the command itself.
>
>Dale

Also add the word "end" (without the quotes) after the commands if you have
a sig that attaches to the end of each message you send.  For example, the
entire text that I sent was:

// JOB
CONFIRM PICLIST
// EOJ

end

The list server ignored my signature and sent confirmation that the command
was accepted.

But PLEASE make sure that you send the command to the list server!

dwayne

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(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 18 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2002)
 .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-
    `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'   `-'
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
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2002\09\12@151255 by Dave King

flavicon
face
At 11:50 AM 12/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Folks, I will tell you now, you will have to read and follow instructions.
>Sending your renewal message to the PICList will get you dropped, as it
>has to be sent *TO THE LIST SERVER ADDRESS SPECIFIED*,
>KILLspamlistservspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu.
>
>Dale

But what do you do when they won't even send you the message to reply to ? ;-]

No such animal in my mailbox's today. Maybe customs finally figured out how
to tax incoming email and is holding it.......

Dave

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'rtfm! Renewal of your subscription ...'
2002\09\12@154202 by Robert Rolf

picon face
The instructions said 'FORWARD' the message back to the listserve, NOT REPLY.
The ">"s in front of the commands is why it is choking on your REPLY.
Delete them, and try again.

Mailto:RemoveMELISTSERVTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
// JOB
CONFIRM PICLIST
// EOJ

Is ALL that the message needs to contain.

For those who STILL don't understand, click below

Mailto:RemoveMELISTSERVspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=//%20JOB%13CONFIRM%20PICLIST%13//%20EOJ%13

Hopefully I've formated the string correctly so that your client generates
a message with the correct content.

cdb wrote:
>
> Okey Dokey
>
> I'm sure I did what it said and this is what I got back?
> Tried three slighty different version but at least the answer was the
> same 3 times.
>
> Colin

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'Fwd: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST'
2002\09\12@174815 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> But what do you do when they won't even send you the message to
> reply to ? ;-]
>
> No such animal in my mailbox's today. Maybe customs finally
> figured out how
> to tax incoming email and is holding it.......

       You could always just send "CONFIRM PICLIST" to the list serv, no harm
would be done. TTYL

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'rtfm! Renewal of your subscription ...'
2002\09\12@192226 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
Please note that some mailers will forward email as an attachment, which
the list server will also discard.

You can simply send a email to
listserv@spam@spamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu
with
confirm piclist
in the body (not the subject) of the message.

-Adam

Robert Rolf wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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'Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list '
2002\09\13@053528 by John Walshe

flavicon
face
Hi Dale,
   I haven't received a renewal notice yet, and am a little concerned I'll
get dropped off the list. Can you please send me the appropriate commands
etc to forward to the server? It might be an idea to see if anyone else
didn't get theirs also - the server might have got lazy in it's deliveries!

Thanks,
John
PS keep up the good work - it IS appreciated

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2002\09\16@021709 by alvin_len

flavicon
face
part 1 439 bytes content-type:text/plain; (unknown type 8bit not decoded)

// JOB
CONFIRM PICLIST
// EOJ

Regards,
Alvin Lee
Vader Technologies Pte Ltd
spam_OUTalvin_lenspamspamvader.com.sg
Tel:(65)64811167
Fax:(65)64811067
HP:93861818

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list [EraseMEPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On
Behalf Of Tim Corey
Sent:
,   12, 2002 9:23
To: EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Fwd: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list




part 2 1596 bytes content-type:message/rfc822 (decode)

part 3 131 bytes
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2002\09\16@023200 by alvin_len

flavicon
face
-----Original Message-----
From: L-Soft list server at MITVMA.MIT.EDU (1.8d)
[LISTSERVspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]
Sent: PGFZKD, >ETB 12, 2002 6:07
To: Timothy W Corey
Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list

Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:06:48

Your subscription to the PICLIST list is  due for renewal. If you wish to
remain  subscribed to  PICLIST,  please issue  the  following command  to
spam_OUTLISTSERVTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU at your earliest convenience:

                            CONFIRM PICLIST

You will  be automatically  removed from the  list if you  do not  send a
CONFIRM command within the next 15 days.

PS: In  order to  facilitate the  task, this  message has  been specially
formatted   so   that   you   only   need   to   forward   it   back   to
TakeThisOuTLISTSERVspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU to have the command executed. Note that while the
formats produced  by the  forwarding function of  most mail  packages are
supported, replying  will seldom work,  so make  sure to forward  and not
reply.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
// JOB
CONFIRM PICLIST
// EOJ

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'[EE]: Backlight powering from wall outlet?'
2002\12\12@004141 by A.J. Tufgar
flavicon
face
Hey everyone,
            I recently got an LCD, but I lack an inverter to power the
backlight. I was wondering if anyone has a schematic to power the
backlight from 120V mains without isolation, or any other easy way to
get the the required voltage (I think it's about 83V if memory serves
me right).

Thanks,
Aaron

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2002\12\13@122618 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
    Is this an EL backlight? Years ago I powered the EL display in an LCD module directly off 120VAC with a current limit resistor so the LCD would not explode in a ball of fire if there were a short. As I recall, 120VAC was within the range of voltages the EL accepted. The EL gave maximum light output at about 400 Hz, but also had the shortest life at that frequency. As frequency dropped, light output dropped and life increased. Many of these displays are still in use after about 20 years of continuous operation.
    Anyone remember the backlit dials on radios in the 1960s? I believe these were EL lamps driven directly off the 120VAC line...

Harold

---------- "A.J. Tufgar" <KILLspamtufgarajEraseMEspamspam_OUTMUSS.CIS.MCMASTER.CA> writes:

Hey everyone,
            I recently got an LCD, but I lack an inverter to power the
backlight. I was wondering if anyone has a schematic to power the
backlight from 120V mains without isolation, or any other easy way to
get the the required voltage (I think it's about 83V if memory serves
me right).




FCC Rules Online at http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/




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2002\12\13@170552 by A.J. Tufgar

flavicon
face
Harold,
      Yes, it's an EL type.  I got it from BG Micro and the only info
I have is this page, http://www.bgmicro.com/pdf/page2.pdf.

What size of resistor would you recommend to limit the current?

Thanks in Advance,
Aaron

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2002\12\13@172623 by Dave Tweed

face
flavicon
face
"A.J. Tufgar" <TakeThisOuTtufgarajspam_OUTspamspamMUSS.CIS.MCMASTER.CA> wrote:
> Yes, it's an EL type.  I got it from BG Micro and the only info
> I have is this page, http://www.bgmicro.com/pdf/page2.pdf.
>
> What size of resistor would you recommend to limit the current?

Operating current is only a few mA, so I'd recommend something in the
range of 5K to 10K.

Also, I'd recommend using a variac to bring up the voltage gradually,
until you're sure it can withstand full line voltage (most can).

-- Dave Tweed

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2002\12\13@174742 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, A.J. Tufgar wrote:

*>Hey everyone,
*>             I recently got an LCD, but I lack an inverter to power the
*>backlight. I was wondering if anyone has a schematic to power the
*>backlight from 120V mains without isolation, or any other easy way to
*>get the the required voltage (I think it's about 83V if memory serves
*>me right).

Imho order an inverter from Mouser or such. EL backlights do not like
mains they want 400Hz or so and the FL ones require a higher ignition
voltage. Building an inverter for FL is not hard, you could buy a 12V
flourescent ceiling light for in-car use and strip it. EL is harder, the
EL panel's life is shortened very much by improper driving.

Peter

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2002\12\13@232222 by A.J. Tufgar

flavicon
face
Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I'm planning on a bridge rect with filter cap to get 120V DC, then
(using a pic of course), PWM @ 400 Hz an NPN (MPSA42) controlling the
120V.

Objections?

Thanks again,
Aaron

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2002\12\14@065219 by Chris Hunter

flavicon
face
You'll get rather more than 120V when you rectify and smooth!!!  Be certain
that your components have sufficient voltage rating (ideally 250 V ratings
for a 110 V line - it's a good safety margin).  It would be sensible to
optically isolate your PIC PWM output from the controlling transistor - this
way you can keep a proper safety barrier between your low voltage logic and
that which you are switching.

Chris

{Original Message removed}

2002\12\14@073543 by Jason Harper

picon face
Aaron wrote:
> I'm planning on a bridge rect with filter cap to get 120V DC, then
> (using a pic of course), PWM @ 400 Hz an NPN (MPSA42) controlling the
> 120V.

This isn't going to work.  An EL panel is effectively a capacitor: pulsed
DC will give you a brief flash of light as the capacitor charges, but after
that you'll get nothing.  You could try putting a resistor across the panel
to discharge it between pulses, but it would be better to use an H-bridge
to get the required reversal of current flow, or a half-bridge switching
one side of the panel between +HV and -HV (with the other side groudned).
       Jason Harper

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2002\12\15@123057 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I'm planning on a bridge rect with filter cap to get 120V DC, then
> (using a pic of course), PWM @ 400 Hz an NPN (MPSA42) controlling the
> 120V.

If you're rectifying a normal 120V AC power line, then you will end up with
around 170V DC.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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'[EE]: Early CATV time/temp wall'
2003\03\08@153237 by Charles Craft
picon face
In the middle 70's the Dubois,PA cable TV company had one channel dedicated
to time, temp, weather data.
It consisted of a wall clock, big thermometer, barometer, etc that was
scanned back and forth by a camera on a pivot.

Anyone remember this from the early days of CATV? If so do you know where I
can get a picture of such a setup to show youngsters that have grown up with
CNN and the Weather Channel?

thanks
chuckc

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2003\03\08@163847 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
The cable system here in San Luis Obispo, CA had the same thing. I also recall a big wheel with something like toothpicks or matchsticks in it that rotated around once each 24 hours. This stick hit switches to handle network nonduplication.  I haven't seen any pictures of it, though...

Harold


---------- Charles Craft <@spam@chuckseaTakeThisOuTspamMINDSPRING.COM> writes:


In the middle 70's the Dubois,PA cable TV company had one channel dedicated
to time, temp, weather data.
It consisted of a wall clock, big thermometer, barometer, etc that was
scanned back and forth by a camera on a pivot.

Anyone remember this from the early days of CATV? If so do you know where I
can get a picture of such a setup to show youngsters that have grown up with
CNN and the Weather Channel?

thanks
chuckc

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2003\03\08@172432 by Dave Tweed

face
flavicon
face
Charles Craft <STOPspamchuckseaspamspamMINDSPRING.COM> wrote:
> In the middle 70's the Dubois,PA cable TV company had one channel
> dedicated to time, temp, weather data. It consisted of a wall clock, big
> thermometer, barometer, etc that was scanned back and forth by a camera
> on a pivot.
>
> Anyone remember this from the early days of CATV? If so do you know where
> I can get a picture of such a setup to show youngsters that have grown up
> with CNN and the Weather Channel?

Mt. Carmel, PA had one of the earliest CATV systems in the country. You can
find the photo gallery of WJPM here:
  http://www.joeba.com/wjpm/

And a nice shot of the weather station here:
  http://www.joeba.com/wjpm/gallery4.htm

Another shot shows the ads/credits panels being changed by a couple of
staff members:
  http://www.joeba.com/wjpm/gallery2.htm

Actually, the camera stood still; a pivoting mirror did the scanning. The
horizontal scanning of the camera electronics was reversed to correct the
image.

-- Dave Tweed

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2003\03\08@183839 by Charles Craft

picon face
Thanks!

Been a while since I've seen a setup like this - never thought about it
being done with mirrors. :-)

Don't think home VCRs existed at that time - would be cool to have a video
of it.

Thanks again
chuckc

{Original Message removed}

'[AD:] Selling Older PIC's, Wallwarts, Displays'
2003\09\07@002514 by Bob Axtell
face picon face
I have 4 electronic component auctions running on ebay (az_engineer) . Not
too much good stuff, just older stuff mostly. Enjoy!

--Bob
--------------
Bob Axtell
PIC Hardware & Firmware Dev
Tucson, AZ
1-520-219-2363
"I lose some on each sale but make it up in volume."

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'Fwd: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST '
2003\09\18@175605 by Tim Corey

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face
Received: from mitvma.mit.edu
       by matterhorn.acpl.lib.in.us; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:01:13 -0500
Received:  by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level 320) via spool with SMTP id 2637 ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:00:38 EDT
Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2d/1.8d) with BSMTP id 0617; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:00:37 -0400
Date:         Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:00:37 -0400
From:         "L-Soft list server at MITVMA.MIT.EDU (1.8e)"
             <LISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list
To:           tcoreyEraseMEspam@spam@ACPL.LIB.IN.US
Message-ID:   <LISTSERV%STOPspam2003091306003712TakeThisOuTspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
X-LSV-ListID: PICLIST

Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:00:37

Your subscription to the PICLIST list is  due for renewal. If you wish to
remain  subscribed to  PICLIST,  please issue  the  following command  to
spam_OUTLISTSERVspam_OUTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU at your earliest convenience:

                            CONFIRM PICLIST

You will  be automatically  removed from the  list if you  do not  send a
CONFIRM command within the next 15 days.

PS: In  order to  facilitate the  task, this  message has  been specially
formatted   so   that   you   only   need   to   forward   it   back   to
TakeThisOuTLISTSERVTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU to have the command executed. Note that while the
formats produced  by the  forwarding function of  most mail  packages are
supported, replying  will seldom work,  so make  sure to forward  and not
reply.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
// JOB
CONFIRM PICLIST
// EOJ

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2003\09\18@180642 by Eric Christensen

picon face
I think you meant to send this to spamBeGoneLISTSERVKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

                                 ^^^^^^^^

Eric


On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:54:03 -0500
Tim Corey <KILLspamTcoreyspam.....ACPL.LIB.IN.US> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2003\09\18@181307 by Richard Zinn

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face
I did, and it confirmed my renewal already.  I definately did send it to
@spam@LISTSERVspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU and nothing else.  I think something might be broken
if you got it and you shouldn't have.

Thanks for helping provide this service.
Richard

{Original Message removed}

2003\09\18@183432 by Eric Christensen

picon face
The original email is from Tim Corey, not you.

Eric

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:12:27 -0600
Richard Zinn <rzinnspam@spam@OMNITURE.COM> wrote:

> I did, and it confirmed my renewal already.  I definately did send it
> to spamLISTSERVRemoveMEspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU and nothing else.  I think something might
> be broken if you got it and you shouldn't have.
>
> Thanks for helping provide this service.
> Richard
>
> {Original Message removed}

2003\09\18@194048 by Bill Couture

picon face
part 1 108 bytes content-type:TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

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part 2 1807 bytes content-type:MESSAGE/RFC822; CHARSET=US-ASCII (decode)

'Fw: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST l'
2003\09\18@222153 by Ramon Santa Ana

flavicon
face
part 1 373 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Corey" <@spam@Tcorey@spam@spamspam_OUTACPL.LIB.IN.US>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: Fwd: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list



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part 2 1821 bytes content-type:message/rfc822; (decode)

2003\09\19@111352 by Lee Boulineau

picon face
--- Richard Zinn <KILLspamrzinnspamRemoveMEOMNITURE.COM> wrote:
> Date:         Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:12:27 -0600
> From:         Richard Zinn <rzinnTakeThisOuTspamspam_OUTOMNITURE.COM>
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Renewal of your subscription to
> the PICLIST list
> To:           STOPspamPICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>
> I did, and it confirmed my renewal already.  I
> definately did send it to
> EraseMELISTSERV@spam@spamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU and nothing else.  I think
> something might be broken
> if you got it and you shouldn't have.
>
> Thanks for helping provide this service.
> Richard
>
> {Original Message removed}

2003\09\19@142806 by Josh Koffman

flavicon
face
I am sick of this.

STOP FORWARDING THIS RENEWAL MESSAGE TO THE LIST.

First and last warning.

Josh Koffman
PICList Adming #5
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
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2003\09\19@161218 by Thomas Sefranek

face picon face
Who are you addressing this to?

{Quote hidden}

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2003\09\19@212922 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> Who are you addressing this to?

       Probably everyone. If people can't read a single post and follow it's
directions...

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2003\09\19@213117 by Josh Koffman

flavicon
face
To everyone. Renewal commands go to the list server, not the list. If
people would read the text of the message, they would realize this.
Someone forwarded it to the list, and then some 2 to 3 other people have
been forwarding it back again. It's annoying and a waste of bandwidth.
As well, it's a sure fire way to demonstrate that you aren't reading the
message.

Josh Koffman
PICList Admin #5
--
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

Thomas Sefranek wrote:
>
> Who are you addressing this to?
>

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2003\09\20@102547 by Art

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I've been deleting the renew piclist messages thinking they were spam or
junk mail. I'm already subscribed and enjoy the list alot.  I really
thought these messages were a joke and haven't read them until I read this
message from Josh (by accident).

I'm not sure why we need to renew............

What do we need to do in order to renew??? If we are already subscribed, do
we still need to renew???

Thanks

Art



At 10:16 PM 9/19/03 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\09\20@232319 by Herbert Graf

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> I'm not sure why we need to renew............

       To eliminate dead accounts.

> What do we need to do in order to renew???

       Read the message, all the instructions are there.

> If we are already
> subscribed, do
> we still need to renew???

       Yes.

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2003\09\22@092835 by Tim Corey

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Received: from mitvma.mit.edu
       by matterhorn.acpl.lib.in.us; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:01:13 -0500
Received:  by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level 320) via spool with SMTP id 2637 ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:00:38 EDT
Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2d/1.8d) with BSMTP id 0617; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:00:37 -0400
Date:         Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:00:37 -0400
From:         "L-Soft list server at MITVMA.MIT.EDU (1.8e)"
             <spamBeGoneLISTSERV.....spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list
To:           tcorey@spam@spamspamBeGoneACPL.LIB.IN.US
Message-ID:   <LISTSERV%spamBeGone2003091306003712EraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
X-LSV-ListID: PICLIST

Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:00:37

Your subscription to the PICLIST list is  due for renewal. If you wish to
remain  subscribed to  PICLIST,  please issue  the  following command  to
LISTSERVspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU at your earliest convenience:

                            CONFIRM PICLIST

You will  be automatically  removed from the  list if you  do not  send a
CONFIRM command within the next 15 days.

PS: In  order to  facilitate the  task, this  message has  been specially
formatted   so   that   you   only   need   to   forward   it   back   to
spam_OUTLISTSERVKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU to have the command executed. Note that while the
formats produced  by the  forwarding function of  most mail  packages are
supported, replying  will seldom work,  so make  sure to forward  and not
reply.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
// JOB
CONFIRM PICLIST
// EOJ

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'[EE:] Worlds first walkie-talkie GSM handset'
2004\01\05@053601 by Russell McMahon
face
flavicon
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The next big thing in cellular telephony ?????????

Walkie Talkie function on GSM cellphone using GPRS data channel independent
of telephony function per se.

Uses Symbian O/S. Nokia say ALL their phones will have this walkie talkie
feature by 2005. Allows instant coms to selected individuals OR group and
(in NZ anyway) costs are per data (time sending) used (assuming GPRS pricing
applies).

http://www.cellular-news.com/story/10106.shtml

   Also

       http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/68/33956.html


This transatlantic example shows that the heading above is wrong

       http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/2941.html

As does this
Fast Chat. US
Mentions Siemens, Samsung and Sendo are producing Symbian handsets.

       http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/May2003/5355.htm

Siemens "PoC"  (Push-to-Talk over cellular)
" ... will be a big hit in 2004".
PoC on entire Siemens range by mid 2004
(not what they say further down)

   http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Dec2003/6254.htm



       Russell McMahon

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'RE[EE: ] Worlds first walkie-talkie GSM handset'
2004\01\05@055052 by Brian Clewer

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face
Not quite the first...
I used to work for a company years ago doing this.  All their phones have a
walkie-talkie function over the GSM network.

Check out http://www.maximonsolutions.com/dolphin.html



Brian.

> {Original Message removed}

2004\01\05@060746 by Brian Clewer

flavicon
face
Re-posted with correct TAG... Outlook!

Not quite the first...
I used to work for a company years ago doing this.  All their phones have a
walkie-talkie function over the GSM network.

Check out http://www.maximonsolutions.com/dolphin.html



Brian.

> {Original Message removed}

2004\01\05@110654 by Herbert Graf

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face
> Not quite the first...
> I used to work for a company years ago doing this.  All their
> phones have a
> walkie-talkie function over the GSM network.
>
> Check out http://www.maximonsolutions.com/dolphin.html

       And then of course there is Motorola's iDEN which has had this
functionality, by desgin, for years. Not GSM though. TTYL

----------------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

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'[EE:] Wall mount lithium ion charger?'
2004\01\28@151323 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
Anyone aware of a wall mount lithium ion battery charger? I'm thinking of
a wall wart linear supply with an LTC1730 or LTC4052 in it. It'd have a
couple LEDs on it to show AC presence and whether the unit was charging.
We'd put a connector on the two wire cord leaving the box to plug onto our
battery pack (two 2AH cells in parallel).

It SEEMS like this should be out there for OEM use!

Any ideas?

THANKS!

Harold


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'[OT:] DC wall-wart style plug adapters'
2004\07\01@113751 by Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]
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Looking for a source to convert a 9.5mm plug to a 12mm plug. Anyone know
where to look or keywords to be searching for? Also am in the need for a
PSE-approved (Japan's equivalent to UL) power supply 15V at 2.5A. There's
got to be a million out there, but it needs PSE approval. It's a low-volume
product, and Japan isn't accepting UL/TUV/VCE approved power supplies. It's
enough to drive you batty. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.



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2004\07\29@051532 by hilip Stortz

picon face
try <http://www.xpiq.com/> for the power supply (i haven't used them in
a long time, and their prices weren't great but they have all the data
and are now selling power supplies as well as corsets).  they may also
have the adapter you want, though you'll probably have to make them or
have them made by someone who makes custom cables.

"Eisermann, Phil [Ridg/CO]" wrote:
>
> Looking for a source to convert a 9.5mm plug to a 12mm plug. Anyone know
> where to look or keywords to be searching for? Also am in the need for a
> PSE-approved (Japan's equivalent to UL) power supply 15V at 2.5A. There's
------

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requires an informed public, with their eyes open.

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'Fw: Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST li'
2004\07\29@051740 by alex

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
// JOB
CONFIRM PICLIST
// EOJ

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2004\07\29@082413 by KenCoop

picon face
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:17:10 +0200, you wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> // JOB
> CONFIRM PICLIST
> // EOJ

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'Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list'
2004\07\29@113043 by Rolf Levenbach

picon face
On Jul 29, 2004, at 6:17 AM, alex wrote:

>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>  // JOB
>  CONFIRM PICLIST
>  // EOJ
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
> KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu
>

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2004\07\29@113910 by Bob Blick

face picon face
I did OK until it got to the part where I had to enter my credit card
number and mother's maiden name...


> On Jul 29, 2004, at 6:17 AM, alex wrote:
>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>  // JOB
>>  CONFIRM PICLIST
>>  // EOJ

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2004\07\29@115858 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Ok people, STOP.

The renewal message is sent to you if you're idle. It gets sent to you
directly, not to the list. Replying to the list does nothing*.

STOP FORWARDING THIS TO THE LIST.

Thanks,

Josh Koffman
PICList Admin #5

* Actually, it might do something, as if you reply to the list you're
technically not idle. Sadly, I have too big a mouth to remain idle for
long enough to find out.

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> >  // JOB
> >  CONFIRM PICLIST
> >  // EOJ

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2004\07\29@115859 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Uh...that's so us admins can verify it's really you by ordering lots
of stuff for us off eBay.

:)

Josh
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fools.
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:38:39 -0700, Bob Blick <bblickEraseMEspamsonic.net> wrote:
> I did OK until it got to the part where I had to enter my credit card
> number and mother's maiden name...
>
> > On Jul 29, 2004, at 6:17 AM, alex wrote:
> >>  // JOB
> >>  CONFIRM PICLIST
> >>  // EOJ

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'Renewal of your subscription to the PICLIST list'
2004\08\06@090547 by Vidal
flavicon
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Josh Koffman wrote:
> The renewal message is sent to you if you're idle. It gets sent to you
> directly, not to the list. Replying to the list does nothing*.

>STOP FORWARDING THIS TO THE LIST.
>
>
>

So what are you supposed to do to stay on the mailinglist?

Regards,

Vidal

{Quote hidden}

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