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PICList Thread
'News from today's mail'
1996\07\29@191530 by fastfwd

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Went through my mail today and discovered that:

1)  Franklin Software, Inc., have dropped their plans to introduce a
   C compiler for the PIC.  No big surprise.

2)  Microchip's Corporate Marketing Communications group reads the
   PICLIST... The newest issue of MicroScope includes a short
   unattributed quote from the PICLIST and a whole paragraph from
   Myke Predko (who's referred to as an "unsolicited customer"...
   Pretty funny).

3)  Microchip have apparently renamed the 16C84A... As far as I can
   tell, it's now called the 16F84.  The "F", I guess, will
   eventually mean "Flash", but for now, the parts are all EEPROM.
   I'd really like to know what the deal is with these parts (and
   whether the eventual flash parts will use regular EEPROM for the
   high-endurance data memory).  Anyone know?

-Andy

Andrew Warren - spam_OUTfastfwdTakeThisOuTspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1996\07\29@213642 by Brian Boles

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    Relative to ....

    #2 - A lot of us in the factory read PICLIST and some actually
    contribute some worthwhile info from time to time.

    #3 - Since the word "Flash" has become a generic term for many circuit
    and process variations of electrically eraseable and reprogrammable
    memories; several micro vendors are calling their EEPROM program
    memory technology "Flash".  I personally like the term "Byte Block
    Flash" ;) because it is more descriptive than just "Flash".
    Naturally, we could tell you our future technology roadmap, but then
    we would have to kill you.  The data memories will continue to be
    implemented in EEPROM technology.

    Rgds, Brian.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: News from today's mail
Author:  Andrew Warren <.....fastfwdKILLspamspam@spam@IX.NETCOM.COM> at Internet_Exchange
Date:    7/29/96 4:20 PM


Went through my mail today and discovered that:

1)  Franklin Software, Inc., have dropped their plans to introduce a
   C compiler for the PIC.  No big surprise.

2)  Microchip's Corporate Marketing Communications group reads the
   PICLIST... The newest issue of MicroScope includes a short
   unattributed quote from the PICLIST and a whole paragraph from
   Myke Predko (who's referred to as an "unsolicited customer"...
   Pretty funny).

3)  Microchip have apparently renamed the 16C84A... As far as I can
   tell, it's now called the 16F84.  The "F", I guess, will
   eventually mean "Flash", but for now, the parts are all EEPROM.
   I'd really like to know what the deal is with these parts (and
   whether the eventual flash parts will use regular EEPROM for the
   high-endurance data memory).  Anyone know?

-Andy

Andrew Warren - fastfwdspamKILLspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

'[Fwd: Re: News from today's mail]'
1996\07\29@222739 by james

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part 0 1944 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii (decoded 7bit)

Message-ID: <.....31FD71E5.E5AKILLspamspam.....radixgroup.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:22:29 -0700
From: James <EraseMEjamesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTradixgroup.com>
Reply-To: jamesspamspam_OUTradixgroup.com
Organization: Radix/Cobalt Instruments, Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: @spam@fastfwdKILLspamspamix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: News from today's mail
References: <KILLspam199607292316.QAA15938KILLspamspamdfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Andrew Warren wrote:
>
>
> 2)  Microchip's Corporate Marketing Communications group reads the
>     PICLIST... The newest issue of MicroScope includes a short
>     unattributed quote from the PICLIST and a whole paragraph from
>     Myke Predko (who's referred to as an "unsolicited customer"...
>     Pretty funny).
>
> -Andy

Yeah, when I complained about the Mexico City Seminar to the PICLIST
I got a direct e-mail from a MicroChip guy.  He wouldn't
even respond publicly on the PICLIST nor respond to my
follow-up.  Kind of makes you wonder.



    HONESTY

    Engineers are always honest in matters of technology and human
    relationships.  That's why it's a good idea to keep engineers away
    from customers, romantic interests, and other people who can't handle
    the truth.

    Engineers sometimes bend the truth to avoid work.  They say
    things that sound like lies but technically are not because nobody
    could be expected to believe them. The complete list of engineer lies
    is listed below:

    "I won't change anything without asking you first." "I'll return your
    hard-to-find cable tomorrow."
    "I have to have new equipment to do my job." "I'm not jealous of your
    new computer."


--
James Musselman
President
Radix/Cobalt Instruments, Inc.
PO Box 897
Clovis, CA 93612 USA
tel 209-297-9000     fax 209-297-9400

'News from today's mail'
1996\07\30@053931 by fastfwd

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Brian Boles <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> A lot of us in the factory read PICLIST and some actually
> contribute some worthwhile info from time to time.

   Brian:

   Yes, but this was the first time any quotes from the PICLIST
   were quoted in MicroScope.

> Since the word "Flash" has become a generic term for many circuit
> and process variations of electrically eraseable and reprogrammable
> memories; several micro vendors are calling their EEPROM program
> memory technology "Flash".

   So Microchip is just going to go along with this silliness?

   Geez... Next, you'll be telling us that distributor-programmed
   EPROM is the same as masked ROM.

> The data memories will continue to be implemented in EEPROM
> technology.

   Cool.  Thanks for the info.

   -Andy

Andrew Warren - spamBeGonefastfwdspamBeGonespamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

'[Fwd: Re: News from today's mail]'
1996\07\30@100643 by myke predko
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{Quote hidden}

James, you're also forgetting the lie:


"The Design is finished."


As for my comments regarding Microchip, after version 3.01.00 was released
by Microchip, I was having the problems with the GPF's in my system and I
was working with Microchip to understand what was happening.  The Microchip
engineers were very helpful and didn't act like my questions or problems
were my own fault, either due to ignorance or non-standard equipment.  After
getting through them and getting a working system (largely composed of
3.09.03), Darrell Johnson asked me if they would mind quoting from my thanks
to them.  I didn't have a problem with it.

I still don't.  I'm very impressed with the way Microchip supports their
products.  Like everybody, I can relate a whole bunch of horror stories
about getting support from various companies.  I have received timely and
patient help from Microchip, despite the fact that I am not a big customer
(We have only developed two applications for use at work and both have been
for test equipment).

Myke

Do you ever feel like an XT Clone caught in the Pentium Pro Zone?

1996\07\30@231758 by Martin J. Maney

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On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, myke predko wrote:

> >     Engineers sometimes bend the truth to avoid work.  They say
> >     things that sound like lies but technically are not because nobody
> >     could be expected to believe them. The complete list of engineer lies

> James, you're also forgetting the lie:
>
> "The Design is finished."

See above.  Surely no intelligent person ever really believes the design
is _finished_.  :-)


'The PICLIST Fund -- Sorry, no update today.'
1996\10\29@035435 by fastfwd
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Dudes:

Normally, I'd be posting an update on the PICLIST Fund today, but I'm
two days away from the deadline on an 8-month-old project (it's a
Windows program written in Visual C++ -- Ack!) so I don't have the
time to post the information today.

Despair not!  If I'm not forced to perform ritual suicide on
Wednesday in order to save face, I'll post a Fund update here at the
end of the week.

-Andy

P.S.  All of you who promised to send contributions but haven't
     gotten around to it yet:  Now's the time... Those coveted low
     contributor numbers are still available.

=== Andrew Warren - TakeThisOuTfastfwdEraseMEspamspam_OUTix.netcom.com                 ===
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California          ===
===                                                       ===
=== Custodian of the PICLIST Fund -- For more info, see:  ===
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499/fund.html ===


'looking for today's email'
1996\11\14@151408 by andreabelian
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Today  I  did  not  receive  any  email from  piclist.
Is  this normal.
I  am  testing  my email  works  ok.
If  there is could you  email  me.



thank you





  ***************************************
  Andre   Abelian
  Data  Image  Technology
  526   Oak  S t  Ste  8
  Glendale  CA  91204
  Tel      : 818.507.1902
  Fax      : 818.547.5884
  Email   : RemoveMEandreabelianspamTakeThisOuTearthlink.net
  ***************************************

'How to get day of week given today's date?'
1996\11\27@010017 by Brooke

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Hi:

I am working on a GPS based clock and would like to display the
day of the week (Sun, Mon,....) I know the day, month, and year.
Does anyone have PIC code for this?

Thanks,
Brooke

PS the LCD info at:
www.iaehv.nl/users/pouweha/lcd2.htm#PIC_example
worked the first time used.  Thanks Peter Ouwehand!

1996\11\27@022252 by fastfwd

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Brooke <PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> I am working on a GPS based clock and would like to display the
> day of the week (Sun, Mon,....) I know the day, month, and year.
> Does anyone have PIC code for this?

   Brooke:

   If your application is non-commercial (i.e., you're not selling
   your GPS clock), feel free to use the following:

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;                                                         ;
; DAY-OF-THE-WEEK CALCULATOR, WRITTEN BY ANDREW WARREN.   ;
;                                                         ;
; (C) 1995 FAST FORWARD ENGINEERING                       ;
;                                                         ;
; PERMISSION IS HEREBY GRANTED FOR ALL NON-COMMERCIAL USE ;
; SO LONG AS THIS NOTICE IS RETAINED IN IN ITS ENTIRETY.  ;
;                                                         ;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

; FOR ANY DATE BETWEEN JANUARY 1 1995 AND DECEMBER 31 1994,
; CALCULATE THE DAY OF THE WEEK [0=SUNDAY, 1 = MONDAY,
; .... 6 = SATURDAY].
;
; ENTER WITH MONTH [1-12] IN "MONTH", DAY-OF-MONTH [1-X]
; IN "DAY", AND YEAR [95-99, 00-94] IN "YEAR".  IF "YEAR"
; IS LESS THAN 95, THIS SUBROUTINE ASSUMES THAT WE'RE IN
; THE 21ST CENTURY.  OTHERWISE, IT ASSUMES THAT WE'RE IN
; THE 20TH.
;
; ON EXIT, DAY-OF-WEEK IS IN "DOW".  "DAY", "MONTH", AND
; "YEAR" ARE UNCHANGED.

DAYWEEK:

; THE FOLLOWING TWO LINES ARE ONLY NECESSARY IF YOU'RE
; USING A 14-BIT PIC (16C6X, 16C7X, 16C8X, ETC.).  FOR
; ALL OTHER PICS, JUST MAKE SURE THAT THE "MONTHTBL"
; SUBROUTINE IS ENTIRELY CONTAINED IN PAGE 0.

       MOVLW   HIGH MONTHTBL   ;MAKE SURE THE "ADDWF PCL"
       MOVWF   PCLATH          ;IN "MONTHTBL" WORKS.

       DECF    MONTH,W         ;W = MONTH - 1.
       CALL    MONTHTBL        ;LOOKUP THE D-O-W FOR THE
                               ;1ST OF THIS MONTH.

       MOVWF   DOW             ;STORE IT.

; AGAIN, THE FOLLOWING TWO LINES ARE ONLY NECESSARY FOR
; PARTS THAT USE "PCLATH".

       MOVLW   $+2             ;RESTORE PCLATH.
       MOVWF   PCLATH          ;

       MOVLW   3               ;MONTH >= MARCH?
       SUBWF   MONTH,W         ;
       BNC     NOLEAP          ;IF NOT, JUMP AHEAD.

       MOVLW   00000011B       ;OTHERWISE, IS THIS A
       ANDWF   YEAR,W          ;LEAP YEAR?

       BNZ     NOLEAP          ;IF NOT, JUMP AHEAD.

; IT'S MARCH 1ST OR LATER, AND THIS YEAR'S A LEAP YEAR.

       INCF    DOW             ;ADD A LEAP DAY.

NOLEAP:

       CLRC                    ;DOW = DOW + (YEAR-1)/4
       RLF     DOW             ;
       DECF    YEAR            ;    = 2*DOW + (YEAR-1)/2
       RLF     YEAR,W          ;      ------------------.
       RRF     YEAR,W          ;              2
       INCF    YEAR            ;
       ADDWF   DOW             ;
       CLRC                    ;
       RRF     DOW             ;

       MOVF    DAY,W           ;DOW = DOW + DAY + YEAR.
       ADDWF   YEAR,W          ;
       ADDWF   DOW             ;

       MOVLW   95              ;YEAR < 95?
       SUBWF   YEAR,W          ;
       SKPC                    ;IF NOT, SKIP AHEAD.

       DECF    DOW             ;OTHERWISE, DOW = DOW - 1.

       MOVLW   7               ;DOW = DOW MOD 7.
                               ;
       SUBWF   DOW             ;
       SKPNC                   ;
       GOTO    $-2             ;
                               ;
       ADDWF   DOW             ;

       RETURN                  ;RETURN.  IF YOU'RE USING
                               ;A 12-BIT PIC, MAKE THIS A
                               ;"RETLW 0" OR SOMETHING.

MONTHTBL:

       ADDWF   PCL

       DT      7,10,10,13      ;DAY-OF-WEEK FOR FIRST DAY
       DT      8,11,13,9       ;OF EACH MONTH (IN YEAR
       DT      12,7,10,12      ;1995). 7=SUNDAY, 8=MONDAY,
                               ;...., 13=SATURDAY.

Enjoy...

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - EraseMEfastfwdspamix.netcom.com                 ===
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California          ===
===                                                       ===
=== Custodian of the PICLIST Fund -- For more info, see:  ===
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499/fund.html ===

1996\11\27@095330 by rrasa

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> I am working on a GPS based clock and would like to display the
> day of the week (Sun, Mon,....) I know the day, month, and year.
> Does anyone have PIC code for this?

//
// Return day of week (0-6, 0 = Sunday) given
// year (1600-), month (1-12), and day (1-31):
//
int GetDayOfWeek(int Year, int Month, int Day)
{
   if (Month <= 2) {
       Year -= 1;
       Month += 12;
   }
   return (6 + Day + ((13 * (Month + 1)) / 5) + Year +
           (Year / 4) - (Year / 100) + (Year / 400)) % 7;
}

If you want to convert that to a string, just use the number this
returns as an offset into a table of strings ...

Randy Rasa
RemoveMErrasaEraseMEspamEraseMEsky.net
http://www.sky.net/~rrasa

1996\11\27@121513 by Peer Ouwehand

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At 21:57 96/11/26 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi:
>
>I am working on a GPS based clock and would like to display the
>day of the week (Sun, Mon,....) I know the day, month, and year.
>Does anyone have PIC code for this?
>
>Thanks,
>Brooke
>
>PS the LCD info at:
>www.iaehv.nl/users/pouweha/lcd2.htm#PIC_example
>worked the first time used.  Thanks Peter Ouwehand!
>

You'r welcome...

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
   Peer Ouwehand
   RemoveMEpouwehaspam_OUTspamKILLspamiaehv.nl
   http://www.iaehv.nl/users/pouweha/

   Wanna chat... try me on PowWow.

   Welcome my son, welcome to the machine. (Pink Floyd)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

1996\11\27@141406 by Wolfram Liebchen

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At 23:28 26.11.96 -0800, you wrote:
>; DAY-OF-THE-WEEK CALCULATOR, WRITTEN BY ANDREW WARREN.   ;

>; FOR ANY DATE BETWEEN JANUARY 1 1995 AND DECEMBER 31 1994,
>
>-Andy

What?

Does it mean, this routine will never work?

Wolfram



+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Wolfram Liebchen                                    |
| Forschungsinstitut fŸr Optik, TŸbingen, Deutschland |
| RemoveMEliebchenTakeThisOuTspamspamffo.fgan.de                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

1996\11\27@165625 by fastfwd

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I wrote, in the comments for the day-of-the-week calculator I posted
here yesterday:

> ; FOR ANY DATE BETWEEN JANUARY 1 1995 AND DECEMBER 31 1994

... and Wolfram Liebchen commented:

> What?
>
> Does it mean, this routine will never work?

   Wolfram:

   No... It only means that I shouldn't send e-mail after 11 pm.

   The comment should have read:  "between January 1 1995 and
   December 31 2094".

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - EraseMEfastfwdspamspamspamBeGoneix.netcom.com                 ===
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California          ===
===                                                       ===
=== Custodian of the PICLIST Fund -- For more info, see:  ===
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499/fund.html ===

1996\11\27@182822 by Gonzalo Palarea

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I think he meant between jan 1 1995 and dec 31 1999 (or?)

At 08:15 PM 11/27/96 +0100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}


'22-Oct-99 Two new SimmSticks announced today.'
1999\10\22@042745 by Don McKenzie
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face
22-Oct-99 Two new SimmSticks announced today.

DT207 New 1" SimmStick Power Supply and RS-232 Comms.
http://www.dontronics.com/dt207.html
DT005 New SimmStick Passive Mother Board.
http://www.dontronics.com/dt005.html

The DT207 Power Supply and RS-232 SimmStick, is simply a 1" SimmStick,
at the same price as other 1" SimmStick PCB's. It can be used as a
stand-alone Power Supply and/or a RS-232 Comms unit, or in conjunction
with a SimmStick Development system. The DT005 passive Motherboard is an
ideal candidate for this module.

Don McKenzie  donSTOPspamspamspam_OUTdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon:   http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html
Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest:  http://www.simmstick.com


'[OT]: MIR Space Station dies today'
2001\03\22@174808 by Russell McMahon
picon face
Final burn to "de-orbit" the MIR Space Station is scheduled to begin about


5pm / 1700    New Zealand time
0400               GMT

and, if I've got it right

1pm                Taiwan
3pm                Eastern Australia

even rougher

10pm ???      approx US West Coast
1am ???        approx US East Coast



We'll only see it here if things go rather wrong.



RM

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http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu


2001\03\22@175647 by t F. Touchton

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part 1 1623 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-asciiI'm glad I'm on the US east coast... I'll get a good night's sleep.


|--------+----------------------->
|        |          Russell      |
|        |          McMahon      |
|        |          <apptech@CLEA|
|        |          R.NET.NZ>    |
|        |                       |
|        |          03/22/01     |
|        |          05:46 PM     |
|        |          Please       |
|        |          respond to   |
|        |          pic          |
|        |          microcontroll|
|        |          er discussion|
|        |          list         |
|        |                       |
|--------+----------------------->
 >----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
 |                                                                            |
 |       To:     KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU                                       |
 |       cc:     (bcc: Scott Touchton/US/UNIPHASE)                            |
 |       Subject:     [OT]: MIR Space Station dies today                      |
 >----------------------------------------------------------------------------|





Final burn to "de-orbit" the MIR Space Station is scheduled to begin about


5pm / 1700    New Zealand time
0400               GMT

and, if I've got it right

1pm                Taiwan
3pm                Eastern Australia

even rougher

10pm ???      approx US West Coast
1am ???        approx US East Coast



We'll only see it here if things go rather wrong.



RM

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http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu




part 2 2442 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode)

part 3 105 bytes
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2001\03\22@181933 by Lawrence Lile

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How come whenever the world has space junk to dispose of, they drop it in on
you Kiwi's?????


-- Lawrence Lile

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spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu



'[OT]: Is this list working today ? I have received'
2001\11\28@063201 by David Huisman
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'[OT]: Isaac Asimovs birthday today'
2002\01\02@052646 by Russell McMahon
picon face
or would be if he was still alive.

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'[OT]: Havent had any posts today.'
2002\01\15@152255 by Jon Baker

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Has there been a normal amount of traffic on the list today or has it been exceptionally quiet? I know I've been having a few problems with my mail server- but it's been working all day and I still havent had a single posting from the list.

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'OT: Today's potpourri'
2002\11\11@184333 by Sid Weaver
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Did you know that a light year is 5, 865, 696, 000. 000 statute miles.

That is the equivalent of  2, 221, 854, 545 trips between Boise, Idaho and
Orlando, Florida.  That many trips would take 49, 374, 545 hours, which is
equal to  5636 years.  It would wear out about 22,218 automobiles and about
63, 481 sets of tires.

Under the circumstances, why would anyone even want to start such a project?

Sid Weaver
Senior Potpourri Dispenser
Southeastern segment

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2002\11\11@185154 by Tony Nixon

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Sid Weaver wrote:
>
> Did you know that a light year is 5, 865, 696, 000. 000 statute miles.
>
> That is the equivalent of  2, 221, 854, 545 trips between Boise, Idaho and
> Orlando, Florida.  That many trips would take 49, 374, 545 hours, which is
> equal to  5636 years.  It would wear out about 22,218 automobiles and about
> 63, 481 sets of tires.
>
> Under the circumstances, why would anyone even want to start such a project?

People will do anything to get in the Guinness Book of Records :-)

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2002\11\11@215737 by hard Prosser

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Where do you get tires that last 92,401 miles  - & cars that last 264,006
miles?? (Certainly not often in NZ).

Richard P



Did you know that a light year is 5, 865, 696, 000. 000 statute miles.

That is the equivalent of  2, 221, 854, 545 trips between Boise, Idaho and
Orlando, Florida.  That many trips would take 49, 374, 545 hours, which is
equal to  5636 years.  It would wear out about 22,218 automobiles and about
63, 481 sets of tires.

Under the circumstances, why would anyone even want to start such a
project?

Sid Weaver
Senior Potpourri Dispenser
Southeastern segment

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2002\11\11@222905 by Jinx

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> That is the equivalent of  2, 221, 854, 545 trips between Boise
> and Orlando

Or 11,731,392 return trips to that little place in the country

http://www.lunarrealty.co.nz/

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2002\11\12@040054 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

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Now, since we allready are OT, maybe a little mathematics problem
could in place ?

Consider a sheet of paper, 0.0001 mm thick.

Lets say you fold it in the middle.

Then fold it again in the middle.

How many times do you have to fold the paper before the "stack"
have passed the Moon (aprox 380.000 km) ?

1 million times ?
Or more ?
Or less ?

The answer surprises most people not familiar with mathematics.
(And the answer is also given in a well known book :-) )

Jan-Erik Svderholm
S:t Anna Data
Sweden.

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2002\11\12@042620 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

380,000km = 3.8E11 millimeters

3.8E11 / 0.1E-3 = 3.8E15 thicknesses of paper.

Log2(3.8E15) = 51.75, so 52 times.

Unfortunately it's pretty much impossible to fold a piece of paper more than
about 7-8 times, no matter how big it is!

Regards

Mike

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2002\11\12@045231 by Jinx

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> Unfortunately it's pretty much impossible to fold a piece of paper
> more than about 7-8 times, no matter how big it is!
>
> Regards
>
> Mike

I've always found that a little hard to believe considering some
of the jumbo machinery around. If you started with a piece 1km
square it would be 31m square and 1024 thicknesses, maybe
100mm, after 10 folds. If you start with an A4 though or tried to
fold this thing (why why why ???) by hand.............

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2002\11\12@095227 by James Paul

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No more than seven (7) times.

             Regards,

               Jim



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'[OT]: Today's potpourri (Tag corrected)'
2002\11\12@110007 by Jim

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> While it SHOULD be impossible to hear meteorites as you see them due to
> their distance away and the time it takes for sound to travel there is
> a significant body of observed "hearings" by competent observers.

> The mechanism is debated but it is suspected that some form of radio
> or low frequency electrical signal may be produced by the very large
> energy involved in creating the ionised meteorite trail and these
> signals may be detected by the human ear or associated nerve cells.
>

WERE this true, these signals the meteroites produce
would be DIRECTLY receivable by any number or receivers
in widespread use today - as well as on a spectrum
analyzer attached to a wideband receiving antenna (such as
a FET-based 'active' antenna).

The human ear/body is certainly *not* more sensitive to
any EM (RF) produced by meteorites than any of today's
modern-day receiving apparatus ... therefore I rather
doubt that these 'observers' are picking up any EM
waves directly produced by meteorites (otherwise, MANY
longwave, Loran C and Omega transmissions would be 'heard'
and likely 'mask' these meteorite signals ...)

RF Jim

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2002\11\12@125117 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I cannot dispute your skepticism, BUT there are many unexplained things in
our world that await open minds.
Why do you sometimes look to the sky just BEFORE something appears?
My favorite is whether the speed of light is really a hard physical limit.
Another is how come my dog anticipates my my behaviour so well?

I concur with your criticism of the "sound" hypothesis.

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



{Original Message removed}

2002\11\12@135424 by O-8859-15?B?TWFydO1uIExlZw==?=

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              Tuesday, November 12, 2002  3:45:50 PM

Hello Jan-Erik,

Tuesday, November 12, 2002, 5:59:09 AM, you wrote:

JES> Now, since we allready are OT, maybe a little mathematics problem
JES> could in place ?

JES> Consider a sheet of paper, 0.0001 mm thick.

JES> Lets say you fold it in the middle.

JES> Then fold it again in the middle.

JES> How many times do you have to fold the paper before the "stack"
JES> have passed the Moon (aprox 380.000 km) ?


Well, 380E3 / 0.0001E-3 = 3.8E12

Every time you fold the paper, it follow the 2 exponential to "n"
rule, so:

     n log 2 = log 3.8E12 => n = log 3.8E12 / log 2

     n =  41.78, where n is the number of times you have to fold the
     paper.


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'[OT]: Re: OT: Today's potpourri'
2002\11\12@142943 by Andrew Warren

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Martin Leg <mlegEraseMEspam@spam@arnet.com.ar> wrote:

> JES> Consider a sheet of paper, 0.0001 mm thick.
> JES> How many times do you have to fold the paper before the "stack"
> JES> have passed the Moon (aprox 380.000 km) ?
>
> Well, 380E3 / 0.0001E-3 = 3.8E12

   Yes, but a kilometer isn't the same as a meter, so it's:

       380E6 / 0.0001E-3 = 3.8E15

   -Andy, who corrected one piclist "off-by-a-factor-of-1000" error
    yesterday, corrected this one today, and is looking forward to
    another one tomorrow.  Sigh...

=== Andrew Warren -- RemoveMEaiwspamspamBeGonecypress.com
=== Principal Design Engineer
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation
===
=== Opinions expressed above do not
=== necessarily represent those of
=== Cypress Semiconductor Corporation

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'[OT]: Today's potpourri'
2002\11\12@144605 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Martin Leg wrote :
>
>      n =  41.78, where n is the number of times you have to fold the
>      paper.
>

Hm, yes, but 42 just happens to be *THE* answer, at least
according to "The hitchikers guide to the Galaxy".

And, anyway, either you fold the paper or you don't, you can't
fold it 0.78 times, can you ?  :-)

Well, enough of OT now...

Jan-Erik Svderholm.

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'OT: Re: Re: Today's potpourri'
2002\11\12@161749 by James Paul

picon face
All,

I'll bet if you try it, you will be closer to seven (7) than 42 or
anything else for that matter.   As you all know, theoretical and
practical are two different animals.  They should be the same
mathematically, but as a practical matter, they aren't the same.
That's the rub here.  Theoretically, the magic number is about 42.
But as a practical matter, it's only about 7.  Maybe 8 if you're
really strong and nimble.  Not only do you increase the thickness
by two every fold, you also decreas the area by half at every fold.
By the time you fold it seven times, you're down to 1/64th the size
of the original sheet.  And although you may have enough strength
to bend paper that thick, you don't have anything to hold on to
because you've reduced your area by 63/64th of what is was.
I know this to be true.  I've done it.

P.S.  Does any of you know how to cut a hole in a standard sheet of
      printer paper (8.5" x 11") big enough for you to walk through?
      Let me know if you can't figure it out and I'll tell you how
      it's done.


                                                Regards,

                                                   Jim



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'Today's potpourri'
2002\11\12@164611 by Jonathan Johnson

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its very easy......I've done it with a mintie wrapper except you had to tear
it by hand instead of cutting it....real carefully out of a sheet that size
you could get your car (poss a bus )through it if your cutting it....

> {Original Message removed}

'[OT]: Re: OT: Today's potpourri'
2002\11\12@170318 by Dave Tweed

face
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Andrew Warren <.....aiwspamRemoveMECYPRESS.COM> wrote:
> Martin Leg <mlegspam@spam@arnet.com.ar> wrote:
> > JES> Consider a sheet of paper, 0.0001 mm thick.
> > JES> How many times do you have to fold the paper before the "stack"
> > JES> have passed the Moon (aprox 380.000 km) ?
> >
> > Well, 380E3 / 0.0001E-3 = 3.8E12
>
>     Yes, but a kilometer isn't the same as a meter, so it's:
>
>         380E6 / 0.0001E-3 = 3.8E15
>
>     -Andy, who corrected one piclist "off-by-a-factor-of-1000" error
>      yesterday, corrected this one today, and is looking forward to
>      another one tomorrow.  Sigh...

However, real paper is closer to 0.1 mm thick than 0.0001 mm thick
(another factor of 1000), so a real-world answer really is 42, not 52.

-- Dave Tweed

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'[OT]: Today's potpourri (Tag corrected)'
2002\11\13@043356 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Another is how come my dog anticipates my my behaviour so well?

Because of signals you give off without realising it. I knew a guy who would
act in a certain way before doing something specific, and he could never
work out why we always knew he was going to do it. He just did not realise
the way he acted before hand.

Just like your wife knows what you said in your mind, even though you did
not even mouth it :))))

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2002\11\13@045846 by O-8859-15?B?TWFydO1uIExlZw==?=

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              Wednesday, November 13, 2002  6:50:30 AM

Tuesday, November 12, 2002, 6:24:07 AM, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

MRJ> 380,000km = 3.8E11 millimeters

MRJ> 3.8E11 / 0.1E-3 = 3.8E15 thicknesses of paper.

MRJ> Log2(3.8E15) = 51.75, so 52 times.

MRJ> Unfortunately it's pretty much impossible to fold a piece of paper more than
MRJ> about 7-8 times, no matter how big it is!


Perfect!

I have a serious unit conversion problem!!!

Anyway, thanks for the jokes about my answer of n=41.78.
I know it is practically impossible to fold the paper .78!!!

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2002\11\13@080227 by Roman Black

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Martin Leg wrote:

> Anyway, thanks for the jokes about my answer of n=41.78.
> I know it is practically impossible to fold the paper .78!!!


Actually I think is probably the easy part of
the problem. Once folded a few times the paper
gets MUCH harder to fold to 1.0, subsequent folds
will be 0.9 angle and decreasing... <grin>
-Roman

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2002\11\13@084048 by John Walshe

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I saw a program on TV last week about a dog(in UK) which is trained to
monitor his owner's condition on a permanent basis. The owner has epilepsy
and the dog detects an imminent attack up to 15 minutes in advance and
alerts the owner who can then prepare for the attack. The dog would then
prevent the owner from getting up too quickly after the attack also. Pretty
amazing I thought.
A side benefit of having the dog is that the lady's frequency of attacks has
dropped from 7-10 a week to 1-2 a week. Believed to be because of reduced
stress levels - no longer worrying about when the next attack will come
(being a menieres sufferer I can appreciate that!)
Sean
***************************************************************
spamBeGoneJohn.Walshespam@spam@inpactmicro.com

INPACT MICROELECTRONICS (Irl) Ltd
21A Pouladuff Road,
Cork,
Ireland,

Tel: +353 21 4318296
Fax: +353 21 4318980

WWW.INPACTMICRO.COM
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2002\11\13@154147 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I live very close to my Black Labrador Retriever. My current hypthosis is
that we both experience the same stimulii but her sensors are much more
sensitive than mine. Also, her brain seems to be very tightly focused on
whatever the task. She can be oblivious to distraction.

Sort of like a small, specialized computer compared to a larger general
purpose computer with lots of interrupts to handle.
But I won't dismiss that there be more to it than that simple analogy...

John Ferrell
6241 Phillippi Rd
Julian NC 27283
Phone: (336)685-9606
Dixie Competition Products
NSRCA 479 AMA 4190  W8CCW
"My Competition is Not My Enemy"



{Original Message removed}

2002\11\13@165918 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Jim wrote:

*>The human ear/body is certainly *not* more sensitive to
*>any EM (RF) produced by meteorites than any of today's
*>modern-day receiving apparatus ... therefore I rather
*>doubt that these 'observers' are picking up any EM
*>waves directly produced by meteorites (otherwise, MANY
*>longwave, Loran C and Omega transmissions would be 'heard'
*>and likely 'mask' these meteorite signals ...)

I read somewhere that some meteorites can cause silent lightning (and
associated thunder) sometimes at great distances from where they traverse
the atmosphere. I don't think you can hear the electromagnetic noise from
them. You can hear some types of modulated transmissions if the field is
very strong.

Peter

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2002\11\13@165921 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

*>Now, since we allready are OT, maybe a little mathematics problem
*>could in place ?
*>
*>Consider a sheet of paper, 0.0001 mm thick.
*>
*>Lets say you fold it in the middle.
*>
*>Then fold it again in the middle.
*>
*>How many times do you have to fold the paper before the "stack"
*>have passed the Moon (aprox 380.000 km) ?
*>
*>1 million times ?
*>Or more ?
*>Or less ?

approximately

41.78913655720457132036703314729012635720665289293192074718384508483\
9847750900342261154245290 times

Of course you knew 380.000 km is not divisible by 2 when you asked, didn't
you ? ;-)

*>The answer surprises most people not familiar with mathematics.
*>(And the answer is also given in a well known book :-) )

Yes but I like the story with the prince of (Persia, India ?) and the man
who invented the game of chess, and asked as reward for one rice grain on
the first square of the chessboard, two on the second, four on the third
etc. If for nothing else, because it works out to a LARGER NUMBER. So I
win ;-).

Peter

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2002\11\13@175948 by James Paul

picon face
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
Snip snip......


> 9847750900342261154245290 times
>
> Of course you knew 380.000 km is not divisible by 2 when you asked,
> didn't you ? ;-)

Seems to me it is.  As written here it would be 190.000 km

                                          Regards,

                                            Jim




{Quote hidden}

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2002\11\13@181224 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, James Paul wrote:

*>> Of course you knew 380.000 km is not divisible by 2 when you asked,
*>> didn't you ? ;-)
*>
*> Seems to me it is.  As written here it would be 190.000 km

I should have said power of 2.

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2002\11\13@182715 by Bob Barr

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On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:34:02 -0000, "Alan B. Pearce" wrote:

>
>Just like your wife knows what you said in your mind, even though you did
>not even mouth it :))))

Or, in the case of some wives, even though you didn't even think it.
:=)

Regards, Bob

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2002\11\14@032351 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
Hum?? Well, not analyzing what, but something is very wrong: the speed of light is VERY much higher than 5636 times that of a car the text implies...

Speed of light: 300.000 km/s
Average travel speed of car: about 70 km/h = 0,019 km/s

So you need to run that car continuously for about 16 million years to catch up with a one year light travel.  Not me ;)


Sid Weaver wrote 00:40 2002-11-12:

{Quote hidden}

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'[EE]: didn't receiving any e-mail today.'
2003\03\20@213256 by Andre Abelian
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Hi to all,

I didn't receiving any e-mail whole day today
Can you see my e-mail how can I check if every things ok.

Andre

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'[EE:] FTDI's new silicon released today'
2004\02\09@193814 by Ken Pergola
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This part sounds nice:

"...FT2232C offers a variety of additional new modes of operation, including
a Multi-Protocol Synchronous Serial Engine interface which is designed
specifically for synchronous serial protocols such as JTAG and SPI bus."

http://www.ftdichip.com/FT2232C.htm


Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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'[OT:] test Please don't open (no list email today)'
2004\04\14@193158 by Victor Faria
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sorry everyone i haven't recieved any list mail today so this is a test.
victor

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'[OT]: My dilbert moment for today.'
2004\05\25@191702 by David VanHorn
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"No, we can't consider a telecommute. Besides, we're outsourcing most of this to Bangalore."

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'[EE:] Today in science history'
2004\05\27@081818 by Russell McMahon

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Today in Science History (would you believe)

               http://www.todayinsci.com/

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'[PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today'
2004\06\28@200535 by Ken Pergola
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FYI:
----

For those of you that don't know, Microchip released MPLAB IDE v6.6 today.
This is a non-interim release so it is tested more than an interim release
according to Microchip. Microchip released the 'readme.zip' files separately
this time if you want to take a look before you download.

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\06\28@201404 by Rfiles

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And C18 demo is now v2.30.01


-----Mensagem original-----
De: pic microcontroller discussion list [PICLISTspamBeGonespam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU] Em
nome de Ken Pergola
Enviada: terça-feira, 29 de Junho de 2004 1:06
Para: KILLspamPICLISTspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Assunto: [PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today

FYI:
----

For those of you that don't know, Microchip released MPLAB IDE v6.6 today.
This is a non-interim release so it is tested more than an interim release
according to Microchip. Microchip released the 'readme.zip' files separately
this time if you want to take a look before you download.

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\06\28@201818 by WH Tan

flavicon
face
Hi Ken,
Thanks for the information.

Just want to ask have you successfully download & install v6.60? The
download problem we have last time was gone?

Thanks & regards,
WH Tan

{Original Message removed}

2004\06\28@203205 by Ken Pergola

flavicon
face
Hi WH Tan,

At least for me, I can't unzip MPLAB IDE v6.60. Error: Unexpected end of
file. It appears that some of the ZIPs are getting corrupted again. I'm
surprised Akamai has not fixed this for Microchip yet (if it is the same
problem).

Well, I gambled and I lost! You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to
fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run. This is getting
funny, but I knew what could happen before I downloaded that 38 megger via
dial-up. I'm a gluten for punishment. :)
I posted the NSLOOKUP results for www1.microchip.com to Darrel Johansen on
the Microchip Forums.

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\06\28@204653 by WH Tan

flavicon
face
Thanks very much for you reply.

Best regards,
WH Tan

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Ken Pergola
Sent: 29 June 2004 08:32
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamBeGonespamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today


Hi WH Tan,

At least for me, I can't unzip MPLAB IDE v6.60. Error: Unexpected end of
file. It appears that some of the ZIPs are getting corrupted again. I'm
surprised Akamai has not fixed this for Microchip yet (if it is the same
problem).

Well, I gambled and I lost! You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to
fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run. This is getting
funny, but I knew what could happen before I downloaded that 38 megger via
dial-up. I'm a gluten for punishment. :)
I posted the NSLOOKUP results for www1.microchip.com to Darrel Johansen on
the Microchip Forums.

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\06\28@204903 by Rfiles

flavicon
face
I try to download 2 times, but when i was decompressing the file, allways
give me CRC error.. I give up. If someone download and install it
sucessfully please say something.

Regards,
Ricardo Reis



-----Mensagem original-----
De: pic microcontroller discussion list [PICLISTspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU] Em
nome de WH Tan
Enviada: terça-feira, 29 de Junho de 2004 1:20
Para: spamBeGonePICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Assunto: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today

Hi Ken,
Thanks for the information.

Just want to ask have you successfully download & install v6.60? The
download problem we have last time was gone?

Thanks & regards,
WH Tan

{Original Message removed}

2004\06\28@210939 by Al Dynarski

picon face
I downloaded and installed successfully about 15 minutes ago.

-Al


I try to download 2 times, but when i was decompressing the file, allways
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

'[PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today. It's F'd'
2004\06\28@212847 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Yep, the file is f'd.

You'd think that Microchip would learn from their past screw ups
and at least D/L the file themselves to test it's integrity so that thousands wouldn't waste time/bandwidth on yet another
'broken' file. 38Meg x 1000 users is a LOT of wasted bandwidth.
What's our time worth?

It also doesn't make a lot of sense to make a self extracting
.exe file since you need an unzipper to get to it. With just the collected files zipped together, one can run 'zipfix'
and possibly ignore files with broken CRC's. With one big binary .exe,
you are SCREWED if even ONE byte is corrupt.

And with a first level zip, you can probably use the files you have
from a previous version for 95% of what's there.

Are you LISTENING Microchip?

Robert
Who does not suffer fools gladly.

Rfiles wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2004\06\28@220623 by Ken Pergola

flavicon
face
Hiya Robert,

Yes, I agree, it's not fun finding out a 38 meg file is toast, but I'm sure
Microchip is just as frustrated as we are. The way I understand it, it's not
Microchip's direct fault. Microchip is just a customer of, and is at the
mercy of, Akamai (http://www.akamai.com/index_flash.html). Again, the way I
understand it is that the problem is happening at Akamai's end. The file is
ok on some of Akamia's servers but not on others -- that's why some people
have problems and others don't. If Microchip's file was corrupted to begin
with, then everybody would be having a problem, but that has not been the
case thus far. Last time this happened we were all asked to submit the
results of typing in 'NSLOOKUP ww1.microchip.com' in the console or command
prompt while we were connected to the internet. Akamai then used this
information to trace which servers had the corrupted ZIP files.
Unfortunately, the problem appears to be happening again.

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\06\28@220628 by Tom Smith

flavicon
face
The zip file is indeed stuffed and hasn't been fixed as of 0300 GMT.

-----Original Message-----
From:   pic microcontroller discussion list [EraseMEPICLISTSTOPspamspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]
On Behalf Of Ken Pergola
Sent:   Monday, June 28, 2004 8:32 PM
To:     spam_OUTPICLISTRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: [PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today

Hi WH Tan,

At least for me, I can't unzip MPLAB IDE v6.60. Error: Unexpected end of
file. It appears that some of the ZIPs are getting corrupted again. I'm
surprised Akamai has not fixed this for Microchip yet (if it is the same
problem).

Well, I gambled and I lost! You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to
fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run. This is getting
funny, but I knew what could happen before I downloaded that 38 megger via
dial-up. I'm a gluten for punishment. :)
I posted the NSLOOKUP results for www1.microchip.com to Darrel Johansen on
the Microchip Forums.

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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'[PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today. Crap shoot?'
2004\06\29@002741 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Al Dynarski wrote:
>
> I downloaded and installed successfully about 15 minutes ago.

What EXACT URL? What CRC do you see listed (PKUnzip)?
CRC of 5584ba83 from
ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/MPLAB660.zip
appears to be BAD.
Extracting MPLABV~1.EXE
Error:  invalid compressed data to inflate

If they have multiple servers one may have
a bad copy of the file(s) or possibly used a version of compression
not supported (but why then make it 75% of the way through the file?).
If they use dynamic DNS, it would be a crap shoot to get the
'good' server.

Robert

> I try to download 2 times, but when i was decompressing the file, allways
> > give me CRC error.. I give up. If someone download and install it
> > sucessfully please say something.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ricardo Reis

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'[PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today. 50/50 chance'
2004\06\29@004404 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Ken Pergola wrote:
>
> Hiya Robert,
>
> Yes, I agree, it's not fun finding out a 38 meg file is toast, but I'm sure
> Microchip is just as frustrated as we are. The way I understand it, it's not
> Microchip's direct fault. Microchip is just a customer of, and is at the
> mercy of, Akamai (http://www.akamai.com/index_flash.html). Again, the way I
> understand it is that the problem is happening at Akamai's end. The file is
> ok on some of Akamia's servers but not on others -- that's why some people
> have problems and others don't. If Microchip's file was corrupted to begin
> with, then everybody would be having a problem, but that has not been the
> case thus far. Last time this happened we were all asked to submit the
> results of typing in 'NSLOOKUP ww1.microchip.com' in the console or command
> prompt while we were connected to the internet. Akamai then used this
> information to trace which servers had the corrupted ZIP files.
> Unfortunately, the problem appears to be happening again.

Thanks for this bit of 'not common knowledge'.
But why the bleep should we be having to do an NSlookup
for them to figure out 'which server'. And the outcome will
change depending on when your lookup request gets processed.
Surely they can just try to extract the file, or run a checksum
program on the server file. If it's a communications error, then the
NIC (network interface card) responsible should have huge error
rates. And TCP/IP is supposed to catch these kinds of problems
in any case.

They're using dynamic DNS (oh joy). 50/50 it seems (after 15 lookups).

This is more likely the bad one
C:\W98b>tracert ww1.microchip.com
Tracing route to a477.g.akamai.net [208.38.45.191]
since it comes up 80% of the time for me.

C:\W98b>tracert ww1.microchip.com
Tracing route to a477.g.akamai.net [208.38.45.175]

Unfortunately a direct reference to the IP doesn't work.
"Invalid URL"

Oh well...
R

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2004\06\29@171037 by Ken Pergola

flavicon
face
Thread update:
--------------

Re: the corrupted MPLAB IDE v6.60 ZIP file



Hi Everyone,

Darrel Johansen of Microchip was kind enough to offer this FTP link to MPLAB
IDE 6.60 to me and he said I could post it here on the PICLIST as well:

ftp://ftp.microchip.com/devtools/MPLAB/


Two disclaimers:

1) It might be slow going with a lot of people downloading from the FTP
site -- patience is a virtue.

2) Access to this download will only be temporary. Normally it is
password-protected.

I have not tried it yet, but I'm sure it is fine -- I'll be downloading it
later on tonight.

Best regards,

Ken Pergola


P.S. I'm just relaying a message, but if this does not work for you, I give
you my permission to send me private hate e-mail.

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2004\06\29@173117 by Ken Pergola

flavicon
face
Sorry, the FTP link I posted did not have the password embedded. Use this
instead:

FTP://devtools:mp660KILLspamspamEraseMEftp.microchip.com/devtools/mplab

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

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2004\06\29@180826 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:05:41 -0400, Tom Smith wrote:

> The zip file is indeed stuffed and hasn't been fixed
as of 0300 GMT.

Or, indeed, twenty hours later!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England

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2004\06\29@190328 by Kyrre Aalerud

flavicon
face
I still have 6.3 hehe.
Should I upgrade ?

Kyrre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Winter" <spamBeGoneHDRWRemoveMEspamEraseMEH2ORG.DEMON.CO.UK>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today


{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\30@112148 by ken wilson

picon face
Went ok for me as well.
Ken

----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Dynarski" <EraseMEald.....spamKILLspamSONIC.NET>
To: <spamPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today


I downloaded and installed successfully about 15 minutes ago.

-Al


I try to download 2 times, but when i was decompressing the file, allways
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2004\06\30@163755 by Rfiles

flavicon
face
I downloaded successfully also, but from ftp. I didnt try the other way any
more.

Ricardo Reis

-----Mensagem original-----
De: pic microcontroller discussion list [@spam@PICLIST.....spamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU] Em
nome de ken wilson
Enviada: quarta-feira, 30 de Junho de 2004 16:21
Para: spamPICLIST.....spam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Assunto: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today

Went ok for me as well.
Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Dynarski" <ald.....spamSONIC.NET>
To: <KILLspamPICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC:] MPLAB IDE v6.6 released today


I downloaded and installed successfully about 15 minutes ago.

-Al


I try to download 2 times, but when i was decompressing the file, allways
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}


'[OT] Piclist down today?'
2004\07\06@133328 by Peter Moreton
flavicon
face
Was PICLIST down today? - I received nothing from 9:00am till just gone
5:00pm. If PIClist was OK, and my ISP let me down, did anyone reply to my
topic "[PIC] 18F452 programmer design advice"?

Thanks, Peter Moreton

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2004\07\06@190428 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
Things have been a bit shaky as of late. Please be patient and use the
archive at piclist.com if needed.

I hope we can get the transition to Mailman made soon. Hint, hint, prod,
prod. <GRIN>

---
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
spam_OUTjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEpiclist.com  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com



> {Original Message removed}

2004\07\07@050607 by Dan Smith

face picon face
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:01:19 -0700, James Newton, Host
<EraseMEjamesnewtonspamBeGonespamKILLspampiclist.com> wrote:

> I hope we can get the transition to Mailman made soon. Hint, hint, prod,
> prod. <GRIN>

Hey, I'm getting through the Listserv documentation - shouldn't be too
long now, promise :-)

Dan

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'[OT] Free Ice Cream today (3/2/05) at Baskin Robin'
2005\03\02@074905 by William Couture
face picon face
To celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th anniversary, they are teaming up with
Baskin Robins for free ice cream!

Go to advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo_birthday/
and log in with your Yahoo! ID.  Then print the coupon and take
it to Baskin Robins.

Bill

--
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'[OT] today morning, ebay don't allow to sign in an'
2005\06\06@121219 by rosoftwarecontrol
flavicon
face
any body saw it also?

I can't buy.

2005\06\06@122825 by PicDude

flavicon
face
I just tried to sign in and it works.  I did not try to bid on anything
though.

-Neil.


On Monday 06 June 2005 12:13 pm, microsoftwarecontrol scribbled:
> any body saw it also?
>
> I can't buy.


2005\06\06@123800 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 12:13 PM 6/6/2005, microsoftwarecontrol wrote:
>any body saw it also?
>
>I can't buy.

I was just there, and bid on a couple items.

2005\06\06@150144 by Don Taylor

flavicon
face

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, microsoftwarecontrol wrote:
> any body saw it also?
>
> I can't buy.

Not a word on their site that I can find about being down.
Usually there is some announcement, but they keep changing where.

As a couple of us were discussing locally, for a company with more money
than J. C. Penny, and whose business depends ENTIRELY on that computer
being up, why in the world don't they have a spare hot backup running at
the opposite end of the country?

These would be connected via multiple redundant links and which if the
first one failed the second one would take over one second later.
Customers in the middle of loading an individual page might see that page
fail, but retrying would bring up the page and you would never even know.

'Re1: [OT] today morning, ebay don't allow to sign '
2005\06\06@225217 by rosoftwarecontrol

flavicon
face
solved, after I restored system.

Seems login of eaby need some thing that was missing in my pc.
Due to it, I can't login into my ebay account.
What is it? attacking?



----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave VanHorn" <RemoveMEdvanhornspamBeGonespamspamdvanhorn.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <@spam@piclistspamspammit.edu>;
<TakeThisOuTpiclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] today morning, ebay don't allow to sign in and can't bid


> At 12:13 PM 6/6/2005, microsoftwarecontrol wrote:
> >any body saw it also?
> >
> >I can't buy.
>
> I was just there, and bid on a couple items.
>
> -

'[OT] today morning, ebay don't allow to sign in an'
2005\06\07@041711 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> any body saw it also?
>
> I can't buy.

Sounds like someone has stolen your identity and changed the password.

'today morning, ebay don't allow to sign in and can'
2005\06\07@043527 by vasile surducan

picon face
On 6/7/05, Alan B. Pearce <.....A.B.PearceRemoveMEspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
> > any body saw it also?
> >
> > I can't buy.
>
> Sounds like someone has stolen your identity and changed the password.

 Alan, you are too pesimistic today. There is a broken connection
somewhere, I can't reach the ebay also, at least to see the
transaction finish.

Vasile

> --


'[OT] Chernobyl - 20 years ago today'
2006\04\26@134043 by Mark Scoville
flavicon
face
Chernobyl tragedy - April 26, 1986 - 20 years ago today... Has it been that
long?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/europe/2006/chernobyl/default.stm

-- Mark

Doesn't matter what your business card says...
We're all in the results business.



2006\04\26@145359 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
>
> Chernobyl tragedy - April 26, 1986 - 20 years ago today...
> Has it been that long?
>
> news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/europe/2006/chernobyl/default.stm
>
> -- Mark
>

And the grass is still growing around the site, the deer come and graze, and
have babies, the trees are growing... The local villagers are (now) dying at
normal rates.

Yes, thousands died. Between 4 and 90 thousand depending on who you listen
to. And if we build more plants, even though they would undoubtedly be safer
than the horrible design of Chernobyl, it is entirely possible that another
failure could happen and thousands more could die. But it is a drop in the
bucked compared to the millions who have died as a result of our use of
fossil fuels. Look at the number of deaths due to pollution from oil and
coal burning. Think about global warming (unless you are still one of the
nut cases that deny it exists). New Orleans alone. Add in the thousands who
have died in wars to protect our supply of oil. All the 9/11 deaths. All
from oil.

Nukes are our best hope for the future.

The danger of nuclear power, while certainly serious, has been massively
over stated.  Perhaps by vested interests who decided that other sources of
energy would be more profitable for them? How many people have been injured
by a well designed nuke plant? Um... That would be... ZERO. Three Mile
melted down and no-one died. Same basic class of failure as what happened at
Chernobyl. If you build them right, they are much less likely to be unsafe.
On the other hand, the damage of using coal and oil is inherent in the
source (Strip mining / OPEC) and in the process of using it (burning with
air).

The FOUNDER of Greens Peace just released a statement that he now supports
nuclear power as a more environmentally friendly source of power than coal,
oil or even hydroelectric. With age comes wisdom.

France is installing several new atomic power plants rather than depend on
OPEC.

I would be pleased to host one in my town or back yard assuming it would
remove the areas dependence on fossil fuels.

People need to pull their heads out of the emotional fog at look at these
issues with reason.

Spent fuel goes back in the earth where it came from and is, obviously, less
energetic than it was before. It may be breaking down faster and therefore
be more radio-active, but it will be active for a shorter period of time and
so contribute less destruction to the environment. It doesn't need to be
stored at a cost of billions. It needs to be chopped up and spread out over
the area where it was originally mined. Or dropped in the ocean. For pete
sake, its radiation, we get it from the sun, from the earth, from the water,
everywhere. It just isn't that big a deal. Manage it, deal with it, get over
it.

Or keep breathing poisoned air and deal with the storms, rising oceans, and
OPEC.

---
James.


2006\04\26@152205 by John Ferrell

face picon face
One of my favorite sites is relevant:
http://www.kiddofspeed.com/

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Scoville" <KILLspammscovillespamTakeThisOuTunicontrolinc.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <TakeThisOuTpiclistspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:41 PM
Subject: [OT] Chernobyl - 20 years ago today


{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\04\26@155304 by Ewhost

flavicon
face
hrm i recall this site being proven a fake or atleast the majority of
the story a fake, the images are real.

either way, worth the look.


John Ferrell wrote:

>One of my favorite sites is relevant:
>http://www.kiddofspeed.com/
>
>John Ferrell
>http://DixieNC.US
>
>{Original Message removed}

2006\04\26@162451 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
James, sorry. Nuclear is NOT our best hope.
Hear me out. You are a brilliant guy, you'll see
why.

James Newtons Massmind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yes. Thank goodness some technicians were able to bury the lot under
layer after layer of concrete so
that the emissions are now acceptable. But the PROBLEM is still there,
it never went away. There will
have to be a sign on the top of the Chernobyl rubble-pile stating "do
not disturb for 10K years". Anybody
honestly think that is realistic?

{Quote hidden}

Global warming is caused by.. er.. WARMING... which is indirectly caused
by carbon dioxide. Yes,
while I can't be certain that global warming is not simply a cyclical
event, excessive warming DOES
cause a lot of death and destruction. And we need to fix it.

> Nukes are our best hope for the future.
>  
Nope, sorry, wrong answer. There are so many negatives to nuclear power
I cannot even begin a list.
But later I will list a few.

> The danger of nuclear power, while certainly serious, has been massively
> over stated.  Perhaps by vested interests who decided that other sources of
> energy would be more profitable for them? How many people have been injured
> by a well designed nuke plant? Um... That would be... ZERO. Three Mile
> melted down and no-one died. Same basic class of failure as what happened at
> Chernobyl. If you build them right, they are much less likely to be unsafe.
> On the other hand, the damage of using coal and oil is inherent in the
> source (Strip mining / OPEC) and in the process of using it (burning with
> air).
>  
I never said using oil and gas is better, because when you use then, you
simply add more to the carbon
dioxide burden of the atmosphere. In this we agree.

> The FOUNDER of Greens Peace just released a statement that he now supports
> nuclear power as a more environmentally friendly source of power than coal,
> oil or even hydroelectric. With age comes wisdom.
>  
He hasn't thought it through yet. Somebody.. or a lot have somebodies..
have flimflammed him into thinking
this is the only other possible thing to use. If that is wisdom, we are
truly lost.

> France is installing several new atomic power plants rather than depend on
> OPEC.
>  
These guys are driven by the same notion that our government has... It
provides technicians and engineers
that would normally be making nuclear bombs something to do between
bombs.. The governments lie to
their people to perpetuate an enormous folly.

> I would be pleased to host one in my town or back yard assuming it would
> remove the areas dependence on fossil fuels.
>  
No you wouldn't. Not really. Think about it.

> People need to pull their heads out of the emotional fog at look at these
> issues with reason.
>  
Sorry, no fog in my house. We don't allow fog here. We work in FACTS.
> Spent fuel goes back in the earth where it came from and is, obviously, less
> energetic than it was before. It may be breaking down faster and therefore
> be more radio-active, but it will be active for a shorter period of time and
> so contribute less destruction to the environment. It doesn't need to be
> stored at a cost of billions.
Sounds like a good idea, but its been thought of before. I wonder why
they have never done it before...
or will they actually do it now? Sounds pretty expensive to me....Store
it at a cost of billions, or spread it
around at the cost of billions. Nuke plants in operation since 1950
still store their offal in tanks under the
plants. So the REAL costs of operating nuke plants hasn't even begun,
has it?

>  It needs to be chopped up and spread out over
> the area where it was originally mined. Or dropped in the ocean. For pete
> sake, its radiation, we get it from the sun, from the earth, from the water,
> everywhere. It just isn't that big a deal. Manage it, deal with it, get over
> it.
>  
No, uranium 235 does NOT occur naturally, and must be intensely refined
by centrifuge and/or filtering.

No, more misconceptions. This energy was trapped when the original
star-stuff was created after the "Big Bang". When
we tinker with it and generate electricity, we release enormous amounts
of heat. And more heat we DO NOT
need. Remember the one about global warming?

> Or keep breathing poisoned air and deal with the storms, rising oceans, and
> OPEC.
>  
Again, a short list of serious problems with nuclear power generation:

1. The fuel is costly to acquire and concentrate enough to be made
useable. Sources of yellow cake are becoming
harder and harder (Do ya think maybe that "harder to find"  = higher
costs?) to locate. The best source now is
Nigeria... an ISLAMIC country. Sounds like costly oil all over again,
doesn't it?  We just CAN'T catch a break, can
we?

2. Despite a lot of interesting ideas, storing spent fuel long enough
for it to be rendered inert still seems to be insolvable.
Hasn't been solved in 60 years. well, maybe we will get lucky somehow.

3. Nuclear power plants are costly to operate and costly to maintain.
The pressure vessels become damaged (made
brittle) by the radiation and must be periodically replaced... and the
old ones cut up and buried.

Now, I have rained on your parade. I do so because there is a viable
alternative.

I (and many others) have had the solution since I was a kid. Solar
energy. Not with photovoltaics; they presently use
up more energy to make than they generate. No, just raw solar heat energy.

Imagine a 10 square mile area of the Arizona desert - probably Indian
land, since there is so much unused. Rainfall here
is less than 5 inches a year, and the sun shines with incredible
intensity here all year long. Concentrate sunlight with simple
parabolic mirrors made of stainless steel, and heat water into steam,
and spin turbines. Just like a nuke plant, but no nuclear
material, no containment vessel,  no spent fuel. Disadvantages? Well,
the sun goes down every day, but there is a simple
solution for that too. Here's MY list:

1. We have calculated that a solar plant that can capture 5 square miles
of desert sunlight will generate enough electricity to
meet the electrical needs of the USA even as the needs expand for the
next 50 years.

2. Excessive capacity will be used to breakdown water into oxygen and
hydrogen, which will be first stored to generate
heat for running some turbines at night, providing the grid with energy
during the night. Excess hydrogen will be shipped
to special "gas stations" that will provide fuel for the thing that will
power cars.  AND this hydrogen will be CHEAP.
The burning of hydrogen and oxygen produces ONLY water, NO carbon dioxide.

3. No extra heat is created when using solar energy, as it would have
fallen on the desert anyway. Its OUR sunlight, not
imported from Saudi Arabia.

4. There is absolutely NOTHING about solar energy used in this way that
is complex or leading edge. Nothing tricky
in any way, except MAYBE making sure the mirrors don't accidentally
point toward an airplane flying over...

No, instead of doing it right, the American public is being "forced" to
use nuclear power because "its our best hope".
I sure hope people wise up. This isn't being pushed much because it is
just too simple for words...


My philosophy of life is that I must NOT leave a big mess for my
children to forced to deal with. And nuclear power
is about the biggest mess POSSIBLE.


Wow, I am getting too old for this...

--Bob
> ---
> James.
>  
>
>  

2006\04\26@170816 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
> I never said using oil and gas is better, because when you use then, you
> simply add more to the carbon
> dioxide burden of the atmosphere. In this we agree.


And very significant amounts of radioactives.


--
> Feel the power of the dark side!  Atmel AVR

2006\04\26@184315 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
Bob Axtell wrote:
> James, sorry. Nuclear is NOT our best hope.
> Hear me out. You are a brilliant guy, you'll see
> why.

Interesting stuff Bob.  I want to throw a few small items into the fray...

> I never said using oil and gas is better, because when you use then, you
> simply add more to the carbon
> dioxide burden of the atmosphere. In this we agree.

There's been some VERY interesting new work in the last few years on a
completely different phenomenon, which there was a recent Nova special
on here in the States.  Do some searches for "Global Dimming".

Basically -- and you're really advised to read the real data of course,
but I'll summarize it as I understand it -- all of our burning of
various things has created enough VISIBLE polution that there are now
areas of the Earth's surface where sunlight energy reaching the surface
is lower by almost 15% (some areas of Siberia, ironically).

From the Nova special, it sounded like at least three good studies of
three completely circumstances now confirm this.

So Global Warming -- as we've all heard about -- is being actively
countered by Global Dimming to some extent.

The Nova special even talked about scientists trying to measure the
exact amounts each is "pulling" the environment warmer and cooler.

Warming is winning, according to the initial studies.

This leads to some corolaries:

- Global Warming (as we have traditionally defined it) is likely already
far worse than we originally imagined.

- Global Warming is not going to be worse AWAY from populated areas
where pollution is created and tends to remain, and not as bad in
populated areas or areas downwind of population centers for many
hundreds of miles.

- Reducing visible emissions while not reducing greenhouse gases and
other types of emissions causing the warming side of things -- will
continue to make the imbalance worse.   But, visible emissions *tend* to
be the emissions that cause humans the most distress and health problems
in the short-term, so they're always attacked first.

>> I would be pleased to host one in my town or back yard assuming it would
>> remove the areas dependence on fossil fuels.
>>  
> No you wouldn't. Not really. Think about it.

No one really wants anything to do with making modern "civilization" in
their back yard, really.

Chemical plant?  No don't want that...

(But everything within eyesight here was made with chemicals, especially
the plastics surrounding me here at my typical American cubicle desk.)

Oil refinery?  No.

Chicken farm (for the other thread about mistreating poultry)?  Not nice
to have around the average city.

Chip fabrication plant and associated wastes?  (Since this *is* the
PICList after all...)?  Don't really want that too close to my back
yard, either.

Big HDTV tower?  (The local "hot issue" right now, even though the tower
folks want to take DOWN three others in the process of erecting the new
one).  No.

Cellular phone towers?  No one wants those either.

Coal-fired power plant?  Nope.

Nuclear power plant?  Not really.

>> People need to pull their heads out of the emotional fog at look at these
>> issues with reason.

Agreed.  ;-)  But I contend that the emotional fog is that we can fix
it.  Humans make messes.  We're tragically sad that way.

> plants. So the REAL costs of operating nuke plants hasn't even begun,
> has it?

The REAL costs of "modern society" are never paid by the current
generation.  And typically humans are too short-sighted to see that.

I'll be paying for WWII heavily in my generation (mid-30's)...

WWII ends, Baby Boom starts, Baby Boomers retire in the U.S. in a few
years, and my generation -- will be paying for their care via government
subsidies until they die.

I think the numbers show I'm supposed to pay for three to four people in
retirement out of my wages.  The math shows it isn't going to work, no
matter how you slice it.

If you'd have all kept your ****s in your pants after the war... LOL...
just kidding... just one of many examples...

This whole "leave the world a better place" is a fallacy.  ALL humans
alive -- ruin the planet in some small way, no matter how "green" or
"off the grid" they live.  Just digging up a small plot of land for a
garden leaves a scar that wouldn't have been there "naturally".

Of course "naturally" assumes humans aren't natural, which is the
ultimate silliness of all of these arguments.  If humans are "natural",
then it's pretty "natural" for us to screw up the planet.

> 1. The fuel is costly to acquire and concentrate enough to be made
> useable. Sources of yellow cake are becoming
> harder and harder (Do ya think maybe that "harder to find"  = higher
> costs?) to locate. The best source now is
> Nigeria... an ISLAMIC country. Sounds like costly oil all over again,
> doesn't it?  We just CAN'T catch a break, can
> we?

Similar to the need for nitrates for explosives and fertilizer at the
turn of the century.  Peru and India were the major sources, people
fought over the trade routes, the nitrates themselves, etc... until an
aspiring German chemist figured out how to make man-made nitrates in a
lab.

It's just a different material the whole world is struggling to find and
use.  Same problem, different material, different millennium.

> 2. Despite a lot of interesting ideas, storing spent fuel long enough
> for it to be rendered inert still seems to be insolvable.
> Hasn't been solved in 60 years. well, maybe we will get lucky somehow.

Physics says that's not likely, but who knows...

> 3. Nuclear power plants are costly to operate and costly to maintain.
> The pressure vessels become damaged (made
> brittle) by the radiation and must be periodically replaced... and the
> old ones cut up and buried.

All power production facilities (when the entire system is taken into
account) are MASSIVELY costly.

This argument that nuclear is somehow more expensive forgets the
billions and billions put into the existing infrastructure for
oil/coal/gas power production and the resulting system of power plants
in most of the "civilized" world.

That wasn't free either, but it was spread out over time and people
don't count it anymore "against" those systems.

Costs are a straw-man argument anyway -- people are going to pay
whatever it costs to have power.

Case-in-point: Gasoline prices rising in the U.S. lately... people
haven't stopped driving.  It just pushes the price of EVERYTHING up.  Why?

Because it's not about the GAS... it's about TRANSPORTATION.  People in
"modern society" need to be able to travel many miles every day.

Until you take the TRAVEL pressure off the system, gas prices simply
don't matter... the prices of everything else will just follow the
TRANSPORTATION opportunity cost spent.

> I (and many others) have had the solution since I was a kid. Solar
> energy. Not with photovoltaics; they presently use
> up more energy to make than they generate. No, just raw solar heat energy.

I thought there have already been test systems that do this by heating a
central "tower" and they've been found to be buggy, hard to maintain,
and expensive?

{Quote hidden}

Again, there's been a test system somewhere, and I remember reading that
it didn't produce anywhere NEAR that level of power.  It's efficiency
was highly overrated, and operating it was difficult.

Plus, you have transmission losses, and other serious problems in
DISTRIBUTION of that power.  How are you going to get your power from
the Arizona desert all the way to NYC where the sunlight just isn't
close?  Maybe from Florida?  Texas?

> 2. Excessive capacity will be used to breakdown water into oxygen and
> hydrogen, which will be first stored to generate
> heat for running some turbines at night, providing the grid with energy
> during the night. Excess hydrogen will be shipped
> to special "gas stations" that will provide fuel for the thing that will
> power cars.  AND this hydrogen will be CHEAP.
> The burning of hydrogen and oxygen produces ONLY water, NO carbon dioxide.

Sounds nice.  And expensive.  People would pay it once your system is in
place, (as I mentioned above) but getting them to pay to SWITCH isn't
going to be easy.

> 3. No extra heat is created when using solar energy, as it would have
> fallen on the desert anyway. Its OUR sunlight, not
> imported from Saudi Arabia.

Moving it around will certainly have untold effects on planetary weather
patterns, etc... but we're seeing that already happens with all us
humans doing things like flying around the world in hollow aluminum
tubes at high altitude and leaving vapor trails in the sky where none
should have ever been naturally.  ;-)

> No, instead of doing it right, the American public is being "forced" to
> use nuclear power because "its our best hope".
> I sure hope people wise up. This isn't being pushed much because it is
> just too simple for words...

I don't think it's as simple as you think it is.  But I'll agree that at
least for the electrical part, it's an incremental change to "the grid".
 Fuel for vehicles?  Not going to happen without massive funding
dragged en-masse out of people's wallets to build new infrastructure for
hydrogen.

> My philosophy of life is that I must NOT leave a big mess for my
> children to forced to deal with. And nuclear power
> is about the biggest mess POSSIBLE.

You never threw anything in a trash can to be put in a land fill?  ;-)
Congrats.

Humans are just a mess... admit it.  :-)

Nate

2006\04\26@195414 by Peter Todd

picon face
On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 01:24:27PM -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
> No, uranium 235 does NOT occur naturally, and must be intensely refined
> by centrifuge and/or filtering.

Which is why one of the most successfull nuke designs used today, the
CANDU reactor, doesn't bother with it. It runs off unenriched uranium
straight from the ground, much more efficient, and there is far more
unenriched uranium around, to the point where the current stockpiles of
it, let alone stuff in the ground, is enough to last us for at least a
decade or two.

Also you can burn thorium in CANDU reactors as well, and thorium is
extremely common. India is currently pursueing an ambition project to
figure out how to do this on a large scale, as they have the second
highest reserves of thorium in the world. (tied with the US, just after
australia)

Source: wikipedia-candu

{Quote hidden}

Politically we haven't found a solution, scientificly we have. There are
*lots* of geologically stable places. As mentioned below, we've already
had to deal with this issue before with even more toxic things.

> 4. There is absolutely NOTHING about solar energy used in this way that
> is complex or leading edge. Nothing tricky
> in any way, except MAYBE making sure the mirrors don't accidentally
> point toward an airplane flying over...

Or more importantly, making it cheap and economical. Good luck on that
one.

If it were easy, people would be doing it already.

Fundementally the problem is that coal and oil are just too cheap. End
of story. No amount of well-wishing will make things different until the
economy is forced to take into account the externalities involved from
CO2 production.

> My philosophy of life is that I must NOT leave a big mess for my
> children to forced to deal with. And nuclear power
> is about the biggest mess POSSIBLE.

Nah, a really concentrated mess, which, with some unfortunately
expensive reprocessing, can be made no more radioactive as the stuff was
when it came out of the ground in the first place.

The entierty of the high-level radioactive waste in the whole world from
*all* sources, including the massive amounts of waste developed to
support the nuclear weapons programs, would fit in an office building.

Up in Yellowknife where my parents live, there is that much volumn of
highly toxic arsenic-trioxide sitting underground from a *single* gold
mine. Did I mention the damn stuff is water-soluable too?

Source: http://nwt-tno.inac-ainc.gc.ca/giant/atg_e.html

Not to imagine the huge amounts of other far more deadly stuff than
arsnic that get dumped... Nuclear waste is the least of our concerns.
>From a waste handlers perspective, it's really easy to work with because
it's trival to detect, if it's dangerous, a gieger counter will start
beeping. Done. Seal it off. If it's really dangerous, IE hot, it must
have a short half-life, so soon (IE decades) it'll be a whole lot safer
than it was.

That arsnic mentioned above has to be sealed for eternity, it will
*never* become safe. Ever. The same is true for anything containing
heavy metals, like lead. Nuclear waste is pretty tame stuff by
comparison.

Heck, ever wondered why Hiroshima and Nagasaki are now thriving cities?

> Wow, I am getting too old for this...

Well, I guess at 21, I'm just young enough... :)

--
RemoveMEpetespamspamSTOPspampetertodd.ca http://www.petertodd.ca

2006\04\26@195532 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
(second inclusion, I never saw my first inclusion. I think this is
a VERY timely issue)

James, sorry. Nuclear is NOT our best hope.
Hear me out. You are a brilliant guy, you'll see
why.

James Newtons Massmind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yes. Thank goodness some technicians were able to bury the lot under
layer after layer of concrete so
that the emissions are now acceptable, before they perished. But the
PROBLEM is still there, it never went
away. There will have to be a sign on the top of the Chernobyl
rubble-pile stating "do not disturb for 10K
years". Anybody honestly think that such vigilance is realistic?

{Quote hidden}

Global warming is caused by.. er.. WARMING... which is indirectly caused
by carbon dioxide. Yes,
while I can't be certain that global warming is not simply a cyclical
event, excessive warming DOES
cause a lot of death and destruction. And we need to fix it. I agree.

> Nukes are our best hope for the future.
>  
Nope, sorry, wrong answer. There are so many negatives to nuclear power
I cannot even begin a list.
But later I will list a few.

{Quote hidden}

I never said using oil and gas is better, because when you use then, you
simply add more to the carbon
dioxide burden of the atmosphere. In this we agree.

> The FOUNDER of Greens Peace just released a statement that he now
> supports
> nuclear power as a more environmentally friendly source of power than
> coal,
> oil or even hydroelectric. With age comes wisdom.
>  
He hasn't thought it through yet. Somebody.. or a lot have somebodies..
have flimflammed him into thinking
this is the only other possible thing to use. If _that_ is wisdom, we
are truly lost.

> France is installing several new atomic power plants rather than
> depend on
> OPEC.  
These guys are driven by the same notion that our government is... It
provides technicians and engineers
who would, normally be making nuclear bombs, with something to do
between bombs.. The governments lie to
their people to perpetuate an enormous folly.

> I would be pleased to host one in my town or back yard assuming it would
> remove the areas dependence on fossil fuels.
>  
No you wouldn't. Think about it.

> People need to pull their heads out of the emotional fog at look at these
> issues with reason.
>  
Sorry, no fog in my house. We don't allow fog here. We work in FACTS.
> Spent fuel goes back in the earth where it came from and is,
> obviously, less
> energetic than it was before. It may be breaking down faster and
> therefore
> be more radio-active, but it will be active for a shorter period of
> time and
> so contribute less destruction to the environment. It doesn't need to be
> stored at a cost of billions.
Sounds like a good idea, but its been thought of before. I wonder why
they have never done it before...
or will they actually do it now? Sounds pretty expensive to me....Store
it at a cost of billions, or spread it
around at the cost of billions. Nuke plants in operation since 1950
still store their offal in tanks under the
plants. So the REAL costs of operating nuke plants hasn't even begun,
has it?

>  It needs to be chopped up and spread out over
> the area where it was originally mined. Or dropped in the ocean. For pete
> sake, its radiation, we get it from the sun, from the earth, from the
> water,
> everywhere. It just isn't that big a deal. Manage it, deal with it,
> get over
> it.
>  
No, usable uranium does NOT occur naturally, and must be intensely
refined by centrifuge and/or filtering.

No, more misconceptions. This energy was trapped when the original
star-stuff was created after the "Big Bang". When
we tinker with it and generate electricity, we release enormous amounts
of heat. And more heat we DO NOT
need. Remember the one about global warming?

> Or keep breathing poisoned air and deal with the storms, rising
> oceans, and
> OPEC.
>  
Again, a short list of serious problems with nuclear power generation:

1. The fuel is costly to acquire and concentrate enough to be made
usable. Sources of yellow cake are becoming
harder and harder (Do ya think maybe that "harder to find"  = higher
costs?) to locate. The best source now is
Nigeria... an ISLAMIC country. Sounds like costly oil all over again,
doesn't it?  We just CAN'T catch a break, can
we?

2. Despite a lot of interesting ideas, storing spent fuel long enough
for it to be rendered inert still seems to be insolvable.
Hasn't been solved in 60 years. well, maybe we'll get lucky somehow.

3. Nuclear power plants are costly to operate and costly to maintain.
The pressure vessels become damaged (made
brittle) by the radiation and must be periodically replaced... and the
old ones cut up and buried. Somewhere.

Now, I have rained on your parade. I do so because there is a viable
alternative.

I (and many others) have had the solution since I was a kid. Solar
energy. Not with photovoltaics; they presently use
up more energy to make than they generate. No, just raw solar heat energy.

Imagine a 10 square mile area of the Arizona desert - probably Indian
land, since there is so much unused. Rainfall here
is less than 5 inches a year, and the sun shines with incredible
intensity here all year long. Concentrate sunlight with simple
parabolic mirrors made of stainless steel, and heat water into steam,
and spin turbines. Just like a nuke plant, but no nuclear
material, no containment vessel,  no spent fuel. Disadvantages? Well,
the sun goes down every day, but there is a simple
solution for that too. Here's MY list:

1. We have calculated that a solar plant that can capture 5 square miles
of desert sunlight will generate enough electricity to
meet the electrical needs of the USA even as the needs expand for the
next 50 years.

2. Excessive capacity will be used to breakdown water into oxygen and
hydrogen, which will be first stored to generate
heat for running some turbines at night, providing the grid with energy
during the night. Excess hydrogen will be shipped
to special "gas stations" that will provide fuel for the thing that will
power cars.  AND this hydrogen will be CHEAP.
The burning of hydrogen and oxygen produces ONLY water, NO carbon dioxide.

3. No extra heat is created when using solar energy, as it would have
fallen on the desert anyway. Its OUR sunlight, not
imported from Saudi Arabia.

4. There is absolutely NOTHING about solar energy used in this way that
is complex or leading edge. Nothing tricky
in any way, except MAYBE making sure the mirrors don't accidentally
point toward an airplane flying over...

No, instead of doing it right, the American public is being "forced" to
use nuclear power because "its our best hope".
I sure hope people wise up. This isn't being pushed much because it is
just too simple for words...


My philosophy of life is that I must NOT leave a big mess for my
children to be forced to deal with. And nuclear power
is about the biggest mess POSSIBLE.


Wow, I am getting too old for this...

2006\04\26@222758 by Mike Hord

picon face
I've always wondered if we wouldn't be doing bad things by
tapping into ANY source of energy.

For example, if we capture too much wind energy, then not
enough is available to carry water in from the ocean and our
inland fresh water supplies dry up.

If we capture too much solar, same thing.  Or maybe
something else.

What about fusion using lunar helium-3?  Now we're importing
and releasing energy into our "energy sphere" that was not
intended to be there.  Result- more warming.

Most of these would require HUGE scales of energy
production to make a dent, but we ARE headed that way.

The only REAL solution is to stop releasing so damn much
energy into the Earth's biosphere.  So we either need to
moderate our consumption or get off Earth.

I'm all for getting off Earth.

For interesting reading about energy "solutions", look
up Freeman Dyson's theories about levels of civilization.
This is from a distant memory, so don't be too hard on me.
A level zero civilization uses fossil fuels, nuclear energy,
and maybe some solar.  A level 1 civilization uses ALL of
the energy which is incident upon its homeworld.  A level
2 civilization uses ALL the energy which escapes its
primary.  A level 3 civilization uses all of the energy which
escapes from its local stellar cluster.

So on a galactic scale, we aren't much better than
cavemen roasting mastodons over fire that has to be
kept rather than created!

Also continue (dragging the conversation in a (hopefully)
less inflammatory direction) to consider that any
civilization above level one would be, for all intents and
purposes, largely invisible to outside observers.  After
all, we can't see its primary (or local cluster), and any
energy radiated would be in the form of heat which
would red shift as they move away from us, causing it
to look even less like what we're looking for as likely
ET candidates.  So there could be tens of thousands
of these civilizations all around us and we'd never know...

Mike H.

2006\04\26@224627 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Mike Hord wrote:
> I've always wondered if we wouldn't be doing bad things by
> tapping into ANY source of energy.
>
> For example, if we capture too much wind energy, then not
> enough is available to carry water in from the ocean and our
> inland fresh water supplies dry up.
>
> If we capture too much solar, same thing.  Or maybe
> something else.
>  
Actually, someone has even studied this. The sunlight level is so great
on the
Sonoran desert  that the captured sunlight would probably result in
INCREASED
plant and animal life because there is shade some places.

> What about fusion using lunar helium-3?  Now we're importing
> and releasing energy into our "energy sphere" that was not
> intended to be there.  Result- more warming.
>  
Yes, standard nuclear reactions in nukes generate considerable more warming.

> Most of these would require HUGE scales of energy
> production to make a dent, but we ARE headed that way.
>
> The only REAL solution is to stop releasing so damn much
> energy into the Earth's biosphere.  So we either need to
> moderate our consumption or get off Earth.
>
> I'm all for getting off Earth.
>  
I would have left already if I could. Some days I feel like I was put
here as a test;
it must have been something I did REALLY BAD in my last life.

{Quote hidden}

Yes, that's about it. Except the cavemen didn't leave a heaping mound of
radioactive
trash for the next 1000 generations to deal with. Conservatively, I'd
say the cavemen
were about 10 steps ahead of us.

{Quote hidden}

I could be wrong, of course, but calling us "civilized" is a real
stretch, from any standpoint.

-- Bob
> Mike H.
>
>  

2006\04\26@225301 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
> The only REAL solution is to stop releasing so damn much
> energy into the Earth's biosphere.  So we either need to
> moderate our consumption or get off Earth.


A neutral density filter sitting at L1 could do a lot twoard regulating
things.
Anyone want to tune THAT  PID loop?

--
> Feel the power of the dark side!  Atmel AVR

2006\04\26@225553 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
> I would have left already if I could. Some days I feel like I was put
> here as a test; it must have been something I did REALLY BAD in my last
> life.


Although it's widely assumed so, I don't think you necessarily work in
chronological order.
One theory is that there's only one of us, and all the "others" are us at a
different point in the stream.


--
> Feel the power of the dark side!  Atmel AVR

2006\04\26@234047 by Peter Todd

picon face
On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 09:27:57PM -0500, Mike Hord wrote:
> I've always wondered if we wouldn't be doing bad things by
> tapping into ANY source of energy.
>
> For example, if we capture too much wind energy, then not
> enough is available to carry water in from the ocean and our
> inland fresh water supplies dry up.
>
> If we capture too much solar, same thing.  Or maybe
> something else.
>
> What about fusion using lunar helium-3?  Now we're importing
> and releasing energy into our "energy sphere" that was not
> intended to be there.  Result- more warming.
>
> Most of these would require HUGE scales of energy
> production to make a dent, but we ARE headed that way.

Here's some hard numbers on all of that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_energy_budget

The total influx of solar energy to the earth is 174 petawatts.

Geothermal energy is 23 terrawatts.

Tidal energy gives you another 3 terrawatts.

And finally... Burning fossil fules is only 13 terrawatts.

Geothermal BTW is actually almost entierly radioactive decay, stored
heat from the beginnings of the planet can't account for how much is
there.

In any case, solar energy accounts for over 10,000 times more energy
than does fossil fuels. In fact, the uncertanty of that solar energy
figure due to natural fluctuations is far more than geothermal and
fossil fuels combined.

So basically, it'll be a long time before we scale up our energy
consumption to the point where it's even remotely comparable with the
effects of global warming. My hunch is landscape modification, through
changing albedo, could very well have more effect. The creation of the
Dutch Polder's for instance probably had a massive effect on the albedo
by replacing dark water with relatively lighter land. That's changing
some % of around 300W of power per square meter, add's up real quick.


About wind mind you... I'm very curious to know what the sum affect of
wind power would be... See, for instance with solar power in most cases
the total effect will be unchanged. You take energy that is converted to
heat normally on the panel, move it a couple hundred feet, and
re-release it as heat. No big deal. Now with wind... What happens when
you effectively warm up the ground? Does that produce more wind by
heating up the air above it?

How far are winds "pushed" anyway?

Of course, as explained above, the effect is completely negligable, but
still, as something to think about...

--
.....peteEraseMEspampetertodd.ca http://www.petertodd.ca

2006\04\27@013012 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
<SNIP>

> Fundamentally the problem is that coal and oil are just too cheap. End
> of story. No amount of well-wishing will make things
> different until the
> economy is forced to take into account the externalities involved from
> CO2 production.

Agreed, but don't leave out the other externalities like health, war, etc...

<SNIP>

{Quote hidden}

So true. And yet, so many people are so upset about it...

> Heck, ever wondered why Hiroshima and Nagasaki are now
> thriving cities?

And if you really want to bend your mind, there are people alive to day, who
were standing in the middle of those cities when the bombs went off. "Duck,
cover and roll" is, in fact, valuable advice, but the other major point
seems to be "don't drink the black rain" and don't get trampled on the way
to the river.

---
James.


2006\04\27@013640 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> I've always wondered if we wouldn't be doing bad things by
> tapping into ANY source of energy.
>
> For example, if we capture too much wind energy, then not
> enough is available to carry water in from the ocean and our
> inland fresh water supplies dry up.
>
> If we capture too much solar, same thing.  Or maybe something else.
>
> What about fusion using lunar helium-3?  Now we're importing
> and releasing energy into our "energy sphere" that was not
> intended to be there.  Result- more warming.
>
> Most of these would require HUGE scales of energy production
> to make a dent, but we ARE headed that way.
>
> The only REAL solution is to stop releasing so damn much
> energy into the Earth's biosphere.  So we either need to
> moderate our consumption or get off Earth.

The major difference is that fossil fuels inject carbon dioxide into the
atmosphere which then traps more of the suns enormous energy. Our own
directly added energy release is a pittance by comparison.

Again, fossil fuels cause global warming by CHEMICAL pollution, NOT ENERGY
pollution.

Not to mention chemical poisoning ala smog, lead poisoning ala war, and so
on.

---
James.


2006\04\27@015917 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> Sounds like a good idea, but its been thought of before. I
> wonder why they have never done it before...
> or will they actually do it now? Sounds pretty expensive to
> me....Store it at a cost of billions, or spread it around at
> the cost of billions. Nuke plants in operation since 1950
> still store their offal in tanks under the plants. So the
> REAL costs of operating nuke plants hasn't even begun, has it?

The problem is political not real. The cost is high because people have been
scared into excessive regulation, safety measures that are unnecessary and
away from solutions that are obvious, cheap and effective.


> >  It needs to be chopped up and spread out over the area
> where it was
> > originally mined. Or dropped in the ocean. For pete sake, its
> > radiation, we get it from the sun, from the earth, from the water,
> > everywhere. It just isn't that big a deal. Manage it, deal with it,
> > get over it.
> >  
> No, uranium 235 does NOT occur naturally, and must be
> intensely refined by centrifuge and/or filtering.

Err... Could you please check your facts on that one? I'm pretty darn sure
it does. But in very small amounts and well spread out. Again, disposal of
radio-active waste, 235 or any other, could easily and safely be
accomplished by just spreading it thin.

> No, more misconceptions. This energy was trapped when the
> original star-stuff was created after the "Big Bang". When we
> tinker with it and generate electricity, we release enormous
> amounts of heat. And more heat we DO NOT need. Remember the
> one about global warming?

Bob, you are smarter than that. Global warming couldn't begin to be caused
by our tiny release of heat into the world. It is caused by the release of
green house gasses which trap more heat in the air, preventing its radiation
into space. If we were not polluting with fossil fuels, any additional heat
we polluted with would self correct very quickly.


> 1. The fuel is costly to acquire and concentrate enough to be
> made useable. Sources of yellow cake are becoming harder and
> harder (Do ya think maybe that "harder to find"  = higher
> costs?) to locate. The best source now is Nigeria... an
> ISLAMIC country. Sounds like costly oil all over again,
> doesn't it?  We just CAN'T catch a break, can we?

Many other sources of non-traditional nuke fuel are available.

> 2. Despite a lot of interesting ideas, storing spent fuel
> long enough for it to be rendered inert still seems to be insolvable.
> Hasn't been solved in 60 years. well, maybe we will get lucky somehow.

It HAS been solved, but the solution is politically unacceptable because our
people are stupid, our leaders are gutless, and the oil cartels are
effective mind washers.

> 3. Nuclear power plants are costly to operate and costly to maintain.
> The pressure vessels become damaged (made
> brittle) by the radiation and must be periodically
> replaced... and the old ones cut up and buried.

There is some truth in this, but a lot of the cost is in unnecessary
regulation and safety equipment required by a frightened public.

> Now, I have rained on your parade. I do so because there is a
> viable alternative.
>
> I (and many others) have had the solution since I was a kid.
> Solar energy. Not with photovoltaic's; they presently use up
> more energy to make than they generate. No, just raw solar
> heat energy.

Oh! Bob.. Please... Think about that for 3 seconds and then try again. I
know you are much more intelligent than that statement makes you seem.

As an example, I have a system on my roof right this moment that generated
$1,400 of electricity last year. It cost $21,000 installed (before the
rebates) so it will pay for itself in 15 of its 25 year lifespan. Actually
it will pay for itself in 10 years because of the federal and state
incentives. If the panels generated less power than it took to make them,
how could that ever be possible? See:
http://www.massmind.org/other/solar/case1.htm

{Quote hidden}

I can only hope you are right. That all sounds good. The only concern I can
think of is transmission losses to other areas, but that is probably not a
big deal.

But the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Big oil is stopping your solar plant
just as surly as it stopped my nuke plant. And for the same reasons. Rather
than fight about which is better, lets pool our resources and make big oil
go away.

What can we do to show people how truly and really horrible fossil fuels
are? I've mentioned a few ways, but we should expand on them, investigate
and get the word out. Should we not?

> My philosophy of life is that I must NOT leave a big mess for
> my children to forced to deal with. And nuclear power is
> about the biggest mess POSSIBLE.

Oil is bigger. Can we agree on that?

>
> Wow, I am getting too old for this...
>
> --Bob
> > ---
> > James.
> >  
> >
> >  
>
> --

2006\04\27@020531 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face

> Humans are just a mess... admit it.  :-)

Some humans have learned to wipe their butts...

...perhaps we can learn to be LESS of a mess?

---
James.


2006\04\27@020752 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> One theory is that there's only one of us, and all the
> "others" are us at a different point in the stream.

I thought you looked familiar...

---
James.


2006\04\27@033950 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> Chernobyl tragedy - April 26, 1986 - 20 years ago today...
>> Has it been that long?
>
>The local villagers are (now) dying at normal rates.

Not sure about that. Don't have any figures to back it up, but there are
charities here in the UK that bring a load of children from that area over
for a holiday each summer. Part of the thing is to let them have fun away
from the contaminated area, and have food that is known to not be
contaminated.

2006\04\27@052630 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> The major difference

sez who ? :-)

ie We can hazard a guess as to which of the effects we are causing is
the major one , but often enough we will be wrong.

> is that fossil fuels inject carbon dioxide into the
> atmosphere which then traps more of the suns enormous energy. Our
> own
> directly added energy release is a pittance by comparison.

Pittances can perturb if positioned perilously.
ie the Lorentz butterfly may bite you unexpectedly when what you were
doing SEEMED to be insiognificant relative to natural effects.

> Again, fossil fuels cause global warming by CHEMICAL pollution, NOT
> ENERGY
> pollution.

Neither actually, arguably.
The action is "photochemical" but its a "mechanical" thermodynamic
effect as a result of this. The sun provides the energy pollution when
we alter the planet's albedo. Painting ALL our roofs white may help
:-).

Of course, the *major* contributor to global warming is the currently
increasing natural output of the sun which has been on an increasing
part of its variable cycle for several hundred years now*. Our effects
are, as you note above,  a pittance compared to this. Which doesn't
mean that our unnatural contributiion wont be what it takes to cause
the butterfly to flap its wing a century or two earlier, or at all.

Greatest known risk is stopping the Atlantic Conveyor subsurface
wraming current which keeps the Brits weather only miserable instead
of ice bound as it ought to be. CO2 levels play a, beleive it or not,
major part in the mechanisms that drive this process. Push them not
impossibly much higher than now and they will be able to skate from
England to France. The really nasty part is that they believe that the
process can flip over in as little as a decade once it gets going BUT
can take centuries to millenia to unflip.

* When you look at the graphs published by many of the 'more liable to
gain from global warming hype' groups you find that they lie severely
by cutting off the graphs in such a manner as to hide the long term
solar cycles which are very similar to what we are riding on top of
now. I'm certainly not saying that GW isn't real - just that

i     The sun is the major contributor.

ii    Our contribution is a small but significanyt fraction whose
effects are not easily predicted.


> Not to mention chemical poisoning ala smog, lead poisoning ala war,
> and so
> on.

Fossil fuels do not cause wars.
Wars may well be fought because of them, but if we had a lot more of
them there would be fewer wars fought over them.
People cause wars (thankyou Mr Heston, you can sit down now).  With or
without GW and FF there will be people and therefore wars.
Wars are caused by greed, pride and self preference. Whether any or
all of these are good or bad depends on ones point of view, whether
its you or someome else doing whatever is under consideration and
whether moral absolutes exist.

Any primary energy source that is limited in availability will cause
'trouble' (RoboCop style).

A potentially free unlimited energy source would cause problems
because of the loss of power (of the other sort) that it engendered.

Solar energy is, perhaps, the most logical one to target as it is
highly available at most consumer locations much of the time. The
level varies annually and with lattitude, but there is still heaps
(technical term) available at most sites much of the time if we but
were sensible with our collection technology. I'll be addressing that
later this year. Maybe. :-).

Harnessing ANY energy source results in pollution of one sort or
another. Some are benign enough in their primary form that the main
pollution comes from the production of the infrastructure. Others such
as fossil & chemical fuels (petroleum / coal / wood / ...)  and
nuclear fission (don't listen to James) are primary polluters as well
as having infrastructure pollution.  Nuclear fusion promises (lies,
lies ...) to be essentially pollution free relative to power output
once we manage to get to the He3 cycle. Other cycles are far worse.

Hmm. Warder wants me to go back now. Anon ...


       RM


       RM


2006\04\27@074114 by Tony Smith

picon face
Hot biker chick + post nuclear apocalype landscape.  Every sci-fi nerds
dream.

Unfortunately for the dream, she got sprung as a fake, sort of.  She'd
been to Chernobyl, but on the official tour, not the bike.

Oh well.

Tony



{Original Message removed}

2006\04\27@082310 by Peter

picon face
Mark Scoville <mscoville <at> unicontrolinc.com> writes:

>
> Chernobyl tragedy - April 26, 1986 - 20 years ago today... Has it been that
> long?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/europe/2006/chernobyl/default.stm

I was curious what that 'lava-like' stuff was. So I found this:

http://www.rri.kyoto-u.ac.jp/NSRG/reports/kr79/kr79pdf/Pavlovych.pdf

Peter






2006\04\27@090534 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Alan,

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 08:39:43 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Indeed, and the amazing thing is that the one month holiday here adds several years to their life expectancy!  
It does make you wonder why they and their families don't move further away from the contaminated area, but
there's no accounting for politics...

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\27@091844 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> The problem is political not real.

What means "political" and what's not "real" in that?

Planning on storing anything for more than a century is not "scientific" --
we don't have any proven technology for that. Let alone the mechanisms to
provide the required social stability to insure the required maintenance
over the lifetime of the facility. This is all "real".

> Again, disposal of radio-active waste, 235 or any other, could easily and
> safely be accomplished by just spreading it thin.

I can see crop dusters flying over NYC and LA, "spreading it thin" right
where the energy was consumed :)


> But the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Ouch... why is it that this fallacy is so popular? Haven't there been
enough examples yet to show that this doesn't work?


Funny that nobody mentioned the IMO biggest energy source: more efficient
use.

US total consumption: 100 P BTU/year, or 350 GJ/person/year
Germany total consumption: 14 P BTU/year, or 200 GJ/person/year

I don't consider the German lifestyle that much different, in terms of
opportunity for happiness and comfort. Maybe fewer dryers and smaller cars,
but that's about it. And note that I don't find anything particularly
energy-efficient about the German lifestyle. There's lots of room for
improvements, in both lifestyles -- the difference here is just to show
what big difference even minor adjustments can make. More efficient use
often comes not only with less consumption, but also with fewer side
effects.


BTW, there seem to have been a host of cartoons in the US lately about the
increased oil consumption of China. Let's see:

US petroleum consumption: 7.3 G barrels/year, or 3820 liters/person/year
China petroleum consumption: 0.3 G barrels/year, or 32 liters/person/year

Hm... :)

Gerhard

2006\04\27@093248 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Gerhard,

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:17:58 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>
>...
> > But the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
>
> Ouch... why is it that this fallacy is so popular? Haven't there been
> enough examples yet to show that this doesn't work?

Hear Hear!  This ludicrously simplistic view (and its other forms) have lead to so many foreign policy
catastrophes in the past, that surely it's time so scrap it?

> Funny that nobody mentioned the IMO biggest energy source: more efficient
> use.
>
> US total consumption: 100 P BTU/year, or 350 GJ/person/year
> Germany total consumption: 14 P BTU/year, or 200 GJ/person/year

Errr... some problem with the arithmetic here, I'm afaid!

If 100 P BTU = 350 GJ (and I haven't worked it out) then 14 P BTU must be 49 GJ.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\27@094915 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


{Quote hidden}

Howard,

I assumed that the P BTU figure is the total energy consumption for the entire country and the number in GJ is per person.  As the population of the US and Germany are considerably different this is where the discrepancy you have noted arises.

Regards

Mike

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2006\04\27@123052 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Howard Winter wrote:

>>> But the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
>>
>> Ouch... why is it that this fallacy is so popular? Haven't there been
>> enough examples yet to show that this doesn't work?
>
> Hear Hear!  This ludicrously simplistic view (and its other forms) have
> lead to so many foreign policy catastrophes in the past, that surely
> it's time so scrap it?

It was never time to make it up in the first place :)


>> Funny that nobody mentioned the IMO biggest energy source: more efficient
>> use.
>>
>> US total consumption: 100 P BTU/year, or 350 GJ/person/year
>> Germany total consumption: 14 P BTU/year, or 200 GJ/person/year
>
> Errr... some problem with the arithmetic here, I'm afaid!
>
> If 100 P BTU = 350 GJ (and I haven't worked it out) then 14 P BTU must be 49 GJ.

Errr... some problem with the reading here, I'm afraid :)

You just missed out on a crucial part of the dimensions. The US total
consumption is 100 P BTU *per year*, or 350 GJ *per person per year*.


BTW, the "international BTU" is about 1055 J. I used BTU in the first
number because that seems to be what most international statistics seem to
offer (at least the ones I found). (Wouldn't it have been easier if they
had defined the "international BTU" to be 1000 J? :)

Gerhard

2006\04\27@125043 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> As an example, I have a system on my roof right this moment that generated
> $1,400 of electricity last year. It cost $21,000 installed (before the
> rebates) so it will pay for itself in 15 of its 25 year lifespan. Actually
> it will pay for itself in 10 years because of the federal and state
> incentives. If the panels generated less power than it took to make them,
> how could that ever be possible? See:
> http://www.massmind.org/other/solar/case1.htm

My disappointment with solar is a local problem.  We get a lot of hail
storms.

Any system I might install and attempt to make it to "payback" on, would
likely be destroyed or heavily damaged every three years, on average.

Some panels can survive a pretty good pounding, but when Mother Nature
drops 3/4" hail on your house every three to five years, solar panels on
the roof don't seem like such a good idea.

Nate

2006\04\27@131022 by olin piclist

face picon face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> Wouldn't it have been easier if
> they had defined the "international BTU" to be 1000 J?

No, since BTU has a previous meaning of course.  It makes sense to formalize
the definition in MKS units, but not to actually change its value.  A BTU is
the amount of energy it takes to raise one pound of water 1 degree F if I
remember right.  This is a property of water and you don't just get to
decide it should be a different value.  If you want 1000J you can already
just say KJ.

For a while the meter was defined as a certain number of wavelengths of the
red emissions of krypton 86 if I remember right.  They didn't just pick a
nice round number because the meter had a previous definition, which in that
case I think was a platinum-iridium bar kept in Paris.  The definition was
so careful to preserve the previous length of the meter that it was actually
given in fractions of the wavelength, even though the actual number was in
the millions.  Would you rather they rounded off to the nearest 1000
wavelengths or so?

I don't know why they have to go thru all this sillyness.  After all how
many people have krypton 86 handy or a means of measuring a few million of
its wavelengths even if they did.  It would be a lot simpler if they just
picked something common, like the distance from the tip of the nose to the
tip of the index finger with the arm outstretched.  Everyone (well, most
everyone) has those handy.  The size of your foot and the width of the your
palm are other readily available measures, the latter particularly useful
for measuring the size of a horse.  Geesh, why do they have to make
everything so *complercated*!?


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\04\27@132943 by Peter

picon face

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Ewhost wrote:

> hrm i recall this site being proven a fake or atleast the majority of the
> story a fake, the images are real.

Which part of the story is fake ? That site is mostly pictures.

Peter

2006\04\27@134633 by John Pfaff

picon face
The pictures are (probably) authentic, but the story has been proven
false.  Since the story is false, her credibility is destroyed.  
Apparently she did take a trip into the area, but it wasn't on a
motorycle.  It was on a regular tour with her husband.

http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=1&threadid=8951

Peter wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2006\04\27@135119 by Peter

picon face


On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, David VanHorn wrote:

>>
>> The only REAL solution is to stop releasing so damn much
>> energy into the Earth's biosphere.  So we either need to
>> moderate our consumption or get off Earth.
>
>
> A neutral density filter sitting at L1 could do a lot twoard
> regulating things. Anyone want to tune THAT PID loop?

A ND filter would be hard but a cloud of something or other conveniently
created there might work. BUT are you sure you want that ?

Peter

2006\04\27@135342 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Michael,

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:44:52 +0100, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

{Quote hidden}

is per person.  As the population of the US and Germany are considerably different this is where the
discrepancy you have noted arises.

Ugh!  I didn't notice the difference in dimensions (the /person part) when I read this - sorry!  That being
the case, I'm rather surprised the US per person figure is only 1.75 of the German one.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\27@135554 by Peter

picon face

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

>> Humans are just a mess... admit it.  :-)
>
> Some humans have learned to wipe their butts...
>
> ...perhaps we can learn to be LESS of a mess?

Stop wiping and save some trees ?

Peter

2006\04\27@135610 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Gerhard,

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:30:16 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Err yes, quite right.  Sorry! (slinks off to the corner)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\27@140242 by Peter

picon face

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Peter wrote:

> Mark Scoville <mscoville <at> unicontrolinc.com> writes:
>
>>
>> Chernobyl tragedy - April 26, 1986 - 20 years ago today... Has it been that
>> long?
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/europe/2006/chernobyl/default.stm
>
> I was curious what that 'lava-like' stuff was. So I found this:
>
> http://www.rri.kyoto-u.ac.jp/NSRG/reports/kr79/kr79pdf/Pavlovych.pdf

Just in case I was not clear: The paper suggests that the puddles of
vitrified fuel 'lava' and materials under the reactor can go critical if
they get wet. In fact, they apparently may have done that twice already
according to graphs in that paper.

Peter

2006\04\27@141325 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face

> > hrm i recall this site being proven a fake or atleast the
> majority of
> > the story a fake, the images are real.
>
> Which part of the story is fake ? That site is mostly pictures.

She rode through the area on her bike. The pictures of the road are from
that. Then she took an official tour and the pictures OFF the road are from
that. She didn't clearly state which pictures are from where. Some people
decided that this was "fake".

Just another amazing rumor that makes nuke power look bad and oil look
better by comparison.

Like that bit about how solar panels take more power to build than they
produce in their life time.

And that windmills kill birds. Which by the way, is absolutely bull pucky.

' wonder how these get started? Who starts them? Who would benefit from
them?


Where are the rumors about more people dying from breathing the pollution
put out by oil and coal fired generation plants than have died smoking
cigarettes? **

---
James.

** I have no idea if that is true, but I felt like trying to start a rumor
for the other side.

2006\04\27@142941 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> > A neutral density filter sitting at L1 could do a lot twoard
> > regulating things. Anyone want to tune THAT PID loop?
>
> A ND filter would be hard but a cloud of something or other conveniently
> created there might work. BUT are you sure you want that ?


Well, if you're worried about solar driven heating being a problem, that
would be one way to fix it, and somewhat easier than building a dyson
sphere.

I tried to order 1-1 scale plans, but they never arrived. :)


--
> Feel the power of the dark side!  Atmel AVR

2006\04\27@143223 by Peter Todd

picon face
On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 11:13:13AM -0700, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Ahh, you gotta go to the Ontario College of Art and Design for that.
I've heard that one before, along with "Cigarettes aren't dangerous,
it's the plastic filters in them that cause the cancer, tobacco smoke is
natural and safe." The same teacher (a smoker BTW) also tried to tell my
class that %95 of women were *already* infertile because of estrogens
from plastics and because of that civilization would end within a few
decades. Strangely, his examples of this were all wrong, he somehow
managed to cite the few plastics that don't have estrogen mimicing
compounds in them, names high and low density polyethelyne, rather than
the numorous examples to the contrary.

Who's benifitting from those BTW? Fear. He's one of the more popular
teachers in the school, because he panders to students who hate
industry, and who smoke for that matter...

--
spampetespam_OUTspam@spam@petertodd.ca http://www.petertodd.ca

2006\04\27@152951 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> Wouldn't it have been easier if they had defined the "international BTU"
>> to be 1000 J?
>
> No, since BTU has a previous meaning of course.  It makes sense to
> formalize the definition in MKS units, but not to actually change its
> value.  A BTU is the amount of energy it takes to raise one pound of
> water 1 degree F if I remember right.  This is a property of water and
> you don't just get to decide it should be a different value.  

Well, yes, kind of. My comment was pointing at the fact that there are
probably at least 5 different common definitions of Btu out there (besides
the two common abbreviations :)  
http://www.sizes.com/units/british_thermal_unit.htm

Since for most who use Btu it apparently doesn't really matter that much
which Btu it is (it seems to be rarely specified, which implies an
uncertainty of about 0.5%), I figured it would make my life easier if they
used one that was off by a little more (only 5%), but more convenient.
Nobody would probably notice it... And there was the smiley that you left
out of your quote... :)


> If you want 1000J you can already just say KJ.

<nitpick> That would be kJ physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/prefixes.html
</nitpick>

I suspect that few people are familiar with either the SI prefixes beyond
T/tera or the plain language words for those numbers. That's possibly one
of the reasons for the use of Btu in such tables: less zeroes than when
using J.

But the consumption has reached amounts that the statistics for many
countries need P/peta even when using Btu. And while learning what P/peta
means (10^15), one could learn in the same token what E/exa means (10^18).
Which would then make the US energy consumption about 100 EJ/year (or about
3 TW or about 10 kW/person; both in yearly averages).

The problem is with the plain language terms for such big numbers... after
M/mega/million they get ambiguous:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrillion#SI_Prefixes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_large_numbers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales


> For a while the meter was defined as a certain number of wavelengths of the
> red emissions of krypton 86 if I remember right.  

You remember right http://www.mel.nist.gov/div821/museum/timeline.htm

Its definition is based on the speed of light and time (derived from
cesium-133) now.


> Would you rather they rounded off to the nearest 1000 wavelengths or so?

I think that's a different matter. There's a difference between physical
constants (like krypton wavelength, cesium frequency, speed of light), base
units (like m, s) and arbitrary convenience units (like Btu). The first two
are necessary and just don't match in general. You can match a base unit
with one physical constant, but then it won't match another. But you can
make life with (in)convenience units easier :)

(I do remember our previous conversations. And I know that there are a few
Btu definitions that are independent of the joule. And I hope you do notice
the smileys...)

Gerhard

2006\04\27@153524 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Howard Winter wrote:

> I'm rather surprised the US per person figure is only 1.75 of the German
> one.

I seem to remember that the difference was more some time ago. Something
seems to be catching on -- either one way or the other :)

Gerhard

2006\04\27@163812 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
hehe.

James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>>> hrm i recall this site being proven a fake or atleast the
>>>      
>> majority of
>>    
>>> the story a fake, the images are real.
>>>      
>> Which part of the story is fake ? That site is mostly pictures.
>>    
>
> She rode through the area on her bike. The pictures of the road are from
> that. Then she took an official tour and the pictures OFF the road are from
> that. She didn't clearly state which pictures are from where. Some people
> decided that this was "fake".
>
> Just another amazing rumor that makes nuke power look bad and oil look
> better by comparison.
>  
That whole website appears to be propaganda in favor of someone.

{Quote hidden}

There might be some truth here, though. My sister inlaw lives outside
LA, and she has been told by
friends that doctors have said that everybody living in LA county smokes
two packs a day- even if
they never lit up.

You are a great guy, James. Keep it up. Sorry I accused you falsely. I
will read PICLIST through
another vehicle, not email, from now on.

--Bob

> ---
> James.
>
> ** I have no idea if that is true, but I felt like trying to start a rumor
> for the other side.
>
>  

2006\04\27@165234 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>>> hrm i recall this site being proven a fake or atleast the
>>>      
>> majority of
>>    
>>> the story a fake, the images are real.
>>>      
>> Which part of the story is fake ? That site is mostly pictures.
>>    
>
> She rode through the area on her bike. The pictures of the road are from
> that. Then she took an official tour and the pictures OFF the road are from
> that. She didn't clearly state which pictures are from where. Some people
> decided that this was "fake".
>
> Just another amazing rumor that makes nuke power look bad and oil look
> better by comparison.
>
> Like that bit about how solar panels take more power to build than they
> produce in their life time.
>  
Oops, I missed this one. Yes, if the standard process is used (slices of
6" silicon crystal wafers), the crystal
is made by many kilowatts of careful heating and crystal growing. So
that one is SORTA true.

Newer devices are made by an extrusion process, where the active
junction is on a glassy surface. These use
much less energy to make and are very inexpensive. Of course they are
not very efficient, either, but when
concentrated, work very well, I understand..

{Quote hidden}

2006\04\27@172512 by Peter

picon face

A different kind of Chernobyl - Centralia:

http://www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/the-story.htm

also shows promise to last 100 years.

Peter

2006\04\27@175553 by Peter Todd

picon face
On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 01:52:32PM -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
> > She rode through the area on her bike. The pictures of the road are from
> > that. Then she took an official tour and the pictures OFF the road are from
> > that. She didn't clearly state which pictures are from where. Some people
> > decided that this was "fake".
> >
> > Just another amazing rumor that makes nuke power look bad and oil look
> > better by comparison.
> >
> > Like that bit about how solar panels take more power to build than they
> > produce in their life time.
> >  
> Oops, I missed this one. Yes, if the standard process is used (slices of
> 6" silicon crystal wafers), the crystal
> is made by many kilowatts of careful heating and crystal growing. So
> that one is SORTA true.

Of course, aparently up until recently, solar panels were almost
exclusively made using recycled wafer material that would have otherwise
been thrown out anyway.

So definetely a win, even if technically *maybe* more energy was used.

--
spampete@spam@spamSTOPspampetertodd.ca http://www.petertodd.ca

2006\04\27@183805 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> A different kind of Chernobyl - Centralia:
>
> www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/the-story.htm
>
> also shows promise to last 100 years.
>
> Peter

I saw a thing on that some time ago... A really interesting story. At first
glance you think "Huh? Big deal" and then you realize how serious it is for
those people and then you wonder why the heck it's so hard to put out, and
you keep reading...

There are so many ways to screw up the world...

---
James.


2006\04\27@205515 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Peter Todd wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Good catch, Peter, I didn't know.

--Bob

2006\04\27@220538 by Matthew Miller

flavicon
face
On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 04:55:02PM -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
>
> 1. We have calculated that a solar plant that can capture 5 square miles
> of desert sunlight will generate enough electricity to
> meet the electrical needs of the USA even as the needs expand for the
> next 50 years.

I have to take issue with this number of square miles. It seems hopelessly
optimistic.

>From <http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epa_sum.html> the total
2004 generating capacity was 963E9 Watts.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_energy> has the best case value of 1020
W/m^2 of solar energy reaching the ground.

Using this info, at least 365 mi^2 would be needed to power the U.S., and
this is assuming 100% efficiency. A power generation faculty at 50%
efficiency would be 40x40 miles. This would be the greatest engineering
project mankind ever attempted! I'm all for this, but I'm skeptical whether
solar on this scale will beat nuclear on economics alone.

Of course I've been very optimistic here, much more that 700 mi^2 will be
needed. Multiple solar collection faculties as well...

Let's do it. Human kind need challenges any way.

Matthew

--
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education"
    -- Albert Einstein

2006\04\28@000919 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 04:55:02PM -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
>  
>> 1. We have calculated that a solar plant that can capture 5 square miles
>> of desert sunlight will generate enough electricity to
>> meet the electrical needs of the USA even as the needs expand for the
>> next 50 years.
>>    
>
>  
This is very old data, published in the 80s. I am quite certain that it
is correct. Lets see... ya know, I
think I misspoke, I think it is 5 miles square, not 5 square miles. That
is then a square, 5mi by 5mi, or
25 square miles. My calculator says that 25sq miles contains 2,589,998.5
square meters. At 740 watts
per square meter, that is 1,926,598 KW or 1926.6 MW. Barely enough for
Greater LA, methinks...

Doesn't look like enough to me, either... Looks like it needs to be
maybe 10 times that... I need to go
dig this outa my old paper files.

> I have to take issue with this number of square miles. It seems hopelessly
> optimistic.
>
> >From <http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epa_sum.html> the total
> 2004 generating capacity was 963E9 Watts.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_energy> has the best case value of 1020
> W/m^2 of solar energy reaching the ground.
>
>  
So. Arizona averages yearly 740 W/meter^2. In summer it probably gets
close to 1020. But its major
advantage is that there are very few overcast days, the reason why So
Arizona has 5 observatories
within 50 miles of Tucson.

> Using this info, at least 365 mi^2 would be needed to power the U.S., and
> this is assuming 100% efficiency. A power generation faculty at 50%
> efficiency would be 40x40 miles. This would be the greatest engineering
> project mankind ever attempted! I'm all for this, but I'm skeptical whether
> solar on this scale will beat nuclear on economics alone.
>  
Nuclear power has no economics. Nuclear power is never paid for,; we
will pay for it generation after generation
in perpetuity; sorta like an expensive cemetery.

But if you are looking for the loose screw, it is that the US power grid
would be unable to accept even a fraction
of the plant's output, because it is so decadent. Rebuilding the grid
would be the most costly task.
> Of course I've been very optimistic here, much more that 700 mi^2 will be
> needed. Multiple solar collection faculties as well...
>  
Yes, NM could take a few, Arizona many, because most of Arizona is
unused Indian land, just dust and cactus.
But AZ has an advantage in that the Bay of Baja could provide cooling
water, pumped about 50 miles. Mexico
would certainly assist, in order to get cheap electricity in exchange.
> Let's do it. Human kind need challenges any way.
>  
It beats another nuke plant. Lets do!

--Bob

> Matthew
>
>  

2006\04\28@002616 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Apr 26, 2006, at 11:53 AM, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Yes, thousands died. ...  But it is a drop in the bucked compared
> to the millions who have died as a result of our use of fossil
> fuels. Look at the number of deaths due to pollution from oil
> and coal burning.

As long as we're racking up death tolls, let's not forget the
people killed by mere LACK of affordable energy.  Freezing to
death for lack of heat, heat related problems for lack of air
conditioning, diseases related to insufficient energy for
sterilization or other trivial expenditures of energy, starvation
due (partially) to no energy for pumping irrigation water...

The US energy consumption is probably excessive, but in some
very real sense, I think you can estimate a peoples' standard
of living pretty accurately by measuring their per capita
energy consumption...  (this does NOT mean that one shouldn't
be as efficient as possible, of course.)

It is amusing in a grim way to listen to people decry the US
dependence on foreign oil and talk about domestic sources like
coal, at the same time full states are shutting down coal mines
due to safety concerns, and the global warming people want to
decrease carbon dioxide emissions (coal surely emits more CO2
per BTU than oil... (?))

BillW

2006\04\28@003006 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Matthew Miller wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I did some digging with your wikipedia reference. It is based on data
from a research facility in Golden, CO.
It looks like 1020 was the max from THEIR site (since I noticed graphs).
So AZ must be much higher, because
we have a better angle on the sun. I need to dig more...

--Bob

2006\04\28@005540 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Apr 27, 2006, at 9:09 PM, Bob Axtell wrote:

> Nuclear power has no economics. Nuclear power is never paid for;
> we will pay for it generation after generation in perpetuity;
> sorta like an expensive cemetery.
>
The problem is that we say that with perfect intellectual confidence,
without comparing it to the similar but less obvious "never paid"
costs of other energy sources.  Bringing up earlier discussions,
I wonder what the political and economic situation WRT the USA
and the middle east would be like if they weren't sitting on such
a valuable high-demand commodity...

BillW

2006\04\28@024732 by Peter

picon face
James Newtons Massmind <jamesnewton <at> massmind.org> writes:

> > A different kind of Chernobyl - Centralia:
> >
> > www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/the-story.htm
> >
> > also shows promise to last 100 years.
> >
> > Peter
>
> I saw a thing on that some time ago... A really interesting story. At first
> glance you think "Huh? Big deal" and then you realize how serious it is for
> those people and then you wonder why the heck it's so hard to put out, and
> you keep reading...

For Centralia they seem to think that all three towns built on that coal vein
are going to get it eventually. I also discovered a number of other coal mine
fires which have been going for years in the USA. They are less well known
because they  do not destroy any towns ? Apparently putting one of these out is
a gigantic task. Even a small one took six months and exotic equipment:

http://firechief.com/technology/firefighting_jet_engine_exhaust/

Apparently, 50+ years or underground burning is quite common. Apparently there
are 49 (forty-nine!) underground fires going in Pennsylvania alone right now,
most of them over 10 years old:

http://www.greenworks.tv/radio/todaystory/20020715.htm

Beats me where they get air to burn for so long.

Peter




2006\04\28@053848 by Tony Smith

picon face
>
> > > hrm i recall this site being proven a fake or atleast the
> > majority of
> > > the story a fake, the images are real.
> >
> > Which part of the story is fake ? That site is mostly pictures.
>
> She rode through the area on her bike. The pictures of the
> road are from that. Then she took an official tour and the
> pictures OFF the road are from that. She didn't clearly state
> which pictures are from where. Some people decided that this
> was "fake".


The 'fake' story came about because while there were photos of the towns
and photos of the bike, there weren't any photos of the bike AT the
towns...

Bike riders try to get part of their bike into every photo, even if it's
just the mirror, fairing or blinker.  "Here's the leaning tower of Pisa,
as seen from my bike", "Here's a salt mine, as seen from my bike",
"Here's a bit of road, as seen from my bike" etc.  Typical biker photo:
<http://www.kiddofspeed.com/367img/image2.3.jpg>.  Odd behaviour, but
anyway.  Probably so you remember what bike you had, at the time rather
than where you went.

The updated site has photos just like that.  Hmmm.

I've got a copy of the original site somewhere, must go back & check.

Tony

2006\04\28@084735 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Bob Axtell wrote:

> I think it is 5 miles square, not 5 square miles. That is then a square,
> 5mi by 5mi, or 25 square miles. My calculator says that 25sq miles
> contains 2,589,998.5 square meters.

Now if we only could get rid of miles (and inches and the like), we
wouldn't have to make these little conversion mistakes and send mars rovers
off course or miscalculate the size of solar plants :)

1 mile is about 1609 m. 1 square mile is 2.6 Mm^2. 25 square miles are 65
Mm^2.

> At 740 watts per square meter, that is 1,926,598 KW or 1926.6 MW.

At 740 W/m^2 that becomes 48 GW.

> Barely enough for Greater LA, methinks...

This still holds, more or less :)

With 10 kW/person (total energy) on average, that's enough energy for 4.8
million people. With 1.5 kW/person (electricity), that's enough electricity
for 32 million people.


>> Using this info, at least 365 mi^2 would be needed to power the U.S., and
>> this is assuming 100% efficiency.

With about 450 GW average electricity consumption for the US, and those 740
W/m^2, that's 608 Mm^2, or 608 (km)^2 -- slightly less, but same range.

Gerhard

2006\04\28@101050 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
William ChopsWestfield wrote:

>> Nuclear power has no economics. Nuclear power is never paid for;
>> we will pay for it generation after generation in perpetuity;
>> sorta like an expensive cemetery.
>>
> The problem is that we say that with perfect intellectual confidence,
> without comparing it to the similar but less obvious "never paid"
> costs of other energy sources.  

One problem is that we don't have an input/output accounting on a large
scale. This makes "informed choices" practically impossible. Most of what
we're doing on that scale is mere guesswork.

I think the technology is here by now to start thinking about this. Instead
of having only money accounting (which of course also could use some
cleaning up, both the accounting and the process that creates the rules)
have also resource accounting. Won't ever be perfect, but probably better
than none at all (that's /my/ guess here :).

And start charging for resource use instead of issuing cost-free or
constant-cost permits, therefore including the use of resources into the
money accounting that determines most business (and many private)
decisions. Of course the price of resources is in many instances a
"political" price, because we own them together, and they can't easily be
limited to a single entity (company or person), like land for example.
Pollution for example affects in most cases more than one entity, so all
affected need to get together and put a price on that pollution. That's by
definition a political process.


> Bringing up earlier discussions, I wonder what the political and economic
> situation WRT the USA and the middle east would be like if they weren't
> sitting on such a valuable high-demand commodity...

That would of course require that the governments be somewhat honest about
the real motives for the various involvements there. That's a worthwhile
but difficult to achieve goal :)

Gerhard

2006\04\28@103436 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Peter wrote:

> Apparently, 50+ years or underground burning is quite common. Apparently there
> are 49 (forty-nine!) underground fires going in Pennsylvania alone right now,
> most of them over 10 years old:
>
> http://www.greenworks.tv/radio/todaystory/20020715.htm

Would be good to be able to at least tap into the heat generated there...
:)

Gerhard

2006\04\28@110338 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
William ChopsWestfield wrote:

> The US energy consumption is probably excessive, but in some very real
> sense, I think you can estimate a peoples' standard of living pretty
> accurately by measuring their per capita energy consumption...  (this
> does NOT mean that one shouldn't be as efficient as possible, of
> course.)

Two very, hm, controversial statements in one phrase :)

First, what's "standard of living"? Before saying what it correlates to, we
probably have to have an agreed-upon way to measure it. This is not easy.
Are you sure that the US standard of living is about 75% "higher" or
"better" than Germany's? How would you measure that (so that we then can
see whether the correlation with the energy consumption is there)?

One example for the difficulty of measuring "standard of living" is the
higher freedom of movement when walking one enjoys in Germany and the
higher freedom of movement with anything motorized one enjoys in the USA.
How do you figure that into the standard of living calculation? I know
people for whom one is an essential part of their standard of living, I
know others for whom the other is an essential part, and I know people for
whom neither is.


Secondly, I think you severely limited your first statement ("you can
estimate a peoples' standard of living pretty accurately by measuring their
per capita energy consumption") with your second ("this does NOT mean that
one shouldn't be as efficient as possible"), without making the consequence
that follows from that explicit. IMO it follows from the second statement
that you only can estimate a peoples' standard of living by measuring their
energy consumption as long as they do things in a similar way.

For example, if a people would do most of their day-to-day chores by bike
or similar and had built an infrastructure that would permit that, their
energy consumption would be lower than the USA's or Germany's (everything
else being equal or comparable). Yet I'd say that their standard of living
would be higher.

Given the restriction that must be put on the first statement when
including the second one, I'm not sure the first one continues to make much
sense.

Gerhard

2006\04\28@114309 by Peter Todd

picon face
On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 11:10:07AM -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> And start charging for resource use instead of issuing cost-free or
> constant-cost permits, therefore including the use of resources into the
> money accounting that determines most business (and many private)
> decisions. Of course the price of resources is in many instances a
> "political" price, because we own them together, and they can't easily be
> limited to a single entity (company or person), like land for example.
> Pollution for example affects in most cases more than one entity, so all
> affected need to get together and put a price on that pollution. That's by
> definition a political process.

You know, my dad is an economist. He specialized in resource economics
in university, with a minor in forestry biology. Ask him about
environmental issues and he'll point to the heavilly studied field of
externiality research in economics. This damn stuff has been studied to
death. We know very well what needs to be done to make our economic
system work better and take into account environmental issues. People
make their careers studying this stuff. Right now my dad is up in
northern Canada working for the government and writing reports on ways
to achieve sustainable use of the natural resources they have.

Sadly you are %100 right. It's completely a political issue. There have
been some success stories, for instance up north the harvesting of seals
is subject to some very successfull quotas that will allow the industry
to function in perpetuity, so long as anyone wants to buy seal skin.
Similarly the logging industry is very well managed. But we're still
nowhere near to accounting for the externialities involved with CO2 for
instance. And guess what? Oil is a *much* bigger industry than seal
hunting... Guess what gets all the news?


BTW Do make note that there are many little communities up in Nunavut past the
arctic circle are almost completely dependent on the seal hunt for their
livelyhood. Quite simply, there is nothing else they can sell to the
rest of the world other than some non-renewable resources. If it weren't
for the fashion industry still wanting to use seal skin, quite simply
those communities would be gone.

Think about that next time you are deciding if you want to listen to
those PETA activists and buy a hemp oscilloscope cover instead of that
nice seal skin one.

> > Bringing up earlier discussions, I wonder what the political and economic
> > situation WRT the USA and the middle east would be like if they weren't
> > sitting on such a valuable high-demand commodity...
>
> That would of course require that the governments be somewhat honest about
> the real motives for the various involvements there. That's a worthwhile
> but difficult to achieve goal :)

Take one look at the levels of military involvement in Afghanistan vs.
Iraq... And even Afghanistan has a proposed oil pipeline project going
accross it.

--
spamBeGonepetespamBeGonespam@spam@petertodd.ca http://www.petertodd.ca

2006\04\28@122104 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> The US energy consumption is probably excessive, but in some very
>> real
>> sense, I think you can estimate a peoples' standard of living
>> pretty
>> accurately by measuring their per capita energy consumption...

> First, what's "standard of living"? Before saying what it correlates
> to, we
> probably have to have an agreed-upon way to measure it. This is not
> easy.
> Are you sure that the US standard of living is about 75% "higher" or
> "better" than Germany's? How would you measure that (so that we then
> can
> see whether the correlation with the energy consumption is there)?

I saw an interesting survey a year or two ago. People in the
Philippines and the US were asked the same questions about how they
felt about their income, quality of life etc. The questions were
absolute with respect to themselves - ie neither set of respondents
were answering relative to the others. AFAIR on just about every
measure the Fillipinos were happier with their lot and more generally
content than the USinos. This suggests that in meaningful terms the
standard of living is higher in the Phillippines than in the US.

> One example for the difficulty of measuring "standard of living" is
> the
> higher freedom of movement when walking one enjoys in Germany and
> the
> higher freedom of movement with anything motorized one enjoys in the
> USA.

as compared to the high freedom of both in New Zealand :-). So far.




       Russell McMahon

2006\04\28@143140 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

> Which part of the story is fake ?

I thought the general conclusion was that the story wasn't so
much "fake" as "embellished."  Not a great thing in a "documentary",
but far from invalidating many of the major plot points...

BillW

2006\04\28@153323 by Peter

picon face


On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Nate Duehr wrote:

> Some panels can survive a pretty good pounding, but when Mother Nature drops
> 3/4" hail on your house every three to five years, solar panels on the roof
> don't seem like such a good idea.

Doesn't this make you a candidate for 'vertical' panels with open trough
reflector ?

Peter

2006\04\28@162920 by Peter

picon face

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

> Peter wrote:
>
>> Apparently, 50+ years or underground burning is quite common. Apparently there
>> are 49 (forty-nine!) underground fires going in Pennsylvania alone right now,
>> most of them over 10 years old:
>>
>> http://www.greenworks.tv/radio/todaystory/20020715.htm
>
> Would be good to be able to at least tap into the heat generated there...

You would end up with the power plant falling into the caved-in earth
before too long I think.

Peter

2006\04\28@163635 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:

>> First, what's "standard of living"?

> AFAIR on just about every measure the Fillipinos were happier with their
> lot and more generally content than the USinos. This suggests that in
> meaningful terms the standard of living is higher in the Phillippines
> than in the US.

Yes, there are quite a number of attempts to universally catch this -- but
I guess it's too individual for any generalization making much sense.

>> One example for the difficulty of measuring "standard of living" is the
>> higher freedom of movement when walking one enjoys in Germany and the
>> higher freedom of movement with anything motorized one enjoys in the
>> USA.
>
> as compared to the high freedom of both in New Zealand :-). So far.

When talking about the freedom of movement when walking in Germany, I was
talking about this: Even though Germany is heavily populated, you can walk
pretty much everywhere. All rural areas, even when private property, are
open for the public (not motor vehicles, though). You're not allowed to
damage crops by walking across fields, but you are allowed to walk between
fields, between pastures, through the woods. This is a freedom that AFAIK
in most of the Americas doesn't exist. Not sure about NZ... Given my theory
that this difference between Germany (AFAIK most of Europe) and the
Americas is due to the forceful occupation of the Americas and the need to
defend the newly occupied lot against pretty much everybody, I'd guess that
this right doesn't exist in NZ either. Or does it?

Gerhard


'[OT] Chernobyl - 20 years ago today'
2006\05\01@030208 by Nate Duehr
face
flavicon
face
Peter wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Nate Duehr wrote:
>
>> Some panels can survive a pretty good pounding, but when Mother Nature drops
>> 3/4" hail on your house every three to five years, solar panels on the roof
>> don't seem like such a good idea.
>
> Doesn't this make you a candidate for 'vertical' panels with open trough
> reflector ?

Not sure, never seen them.  Are they tall?

If they're tall, it'd require some serious structural reinforcement of
the roof, since we also regularly (usually once in the spring and once
in the fall) clock winds that are steady in excess of 50 Miles/Hour, and
gusts to 80 are not uncommon every few years.

Not sure how something with a "trough" at the bottom would enjoy heavy
wet snow loads either.  Or would that style even work if the reflector
is at the bottom when buried in heavy snow?)

(I've already lost my 40' X 13' awning twice during Spring heavy, wet,
snow events caused by upslope conditions.  If a strong low-pressure
system sets up over Albuquerque in the Spring when it's still cold
enough to snow and sucks moisture out of the Gulf of Mexico and shoves
it slowly uphill toward Colorado -- we get dumped on.  3-10' of heavy
wet snow has happened here numerous times in my life.  March of 2003 was
particularly interesting.  And Christmas 1984.)

We typically get 300+ days of sunshine a year here, but many times
that's because the weather is quite unstable in the Spring and Fall and
storms are short-lived but violent in the summertime.

But I wouldn't trade it for the world.  C'mon up to Denver and visit
sometime!

Nate

2006\05\01@132258 by Peter

picon face

>> Doesn't this make you a candidate for 'vertical' panels with open trough
>> reflector ?
>
> Not sure, never seen them.  Are they tall?

It's like the trough but it's set up like a Herschel telescope mirror
(look it up). Or the small 'orange peel' radar antennas.

> If they're tall, it'd require some serious structural reinforcement of the
> roof, since we also regularly (usually once in the spring and once in the
> fall) clock winds that are steady in excess of 50 Miles/Hour, and gusts to 80
> are not uncommon every few years.

You don't put them on the roof, they are almost vertical. They can lean
to the house or a solid fence (wall) or be hung on same at some height.

> Not sure how something with a "trough" at the bottom would enjoy heavy wet
> snow loads either.  Or would that style even work if the reflector is at the
> bottom when buried in heavy snow?)

Both the collector and the 'trough' are almost vertical. Because of the
Herschel setup and the max. altitude of the sun in the temperate zone
they are at about 22-25 degrees from vertical (both of them). This is
too steep for snow, etc to cling to.

> But I wouldn't trade it for the world.  C'mon up to Denver and visit
> sometime!

Thanks, it's a little out of my way for now ...

Peter

2006\05\01@141125 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Is this what you are referring to Peter?

From
www.tpub.com/content/combat/14308/css/14308_75.htm
Orange-Peel   Paraboloid.-A   section   of   a complete   circular
paraboloid,   often   called   an ORANGE-PEEL REFLECTOR because of its
shape, is shown in view D of figure 5-13. Since the reflector is narrow in
the horizontal plane and wide in the vertical, it produces a beam that is
wide in the horizontal plane and   narrow   in   the   vertical.   In
shape,   the   beam resembles  a  huge  beaver  tail.  This  type  of
antenna system is generally used in height-finding equipment.

Figure 5-13 is on the prior page and is a rather poor image. There is a
better image at
http://www.tpub.com/neets/book11/46a.htm in figure 3-6

http://www.princeindia.org/researchproj.htm#a2
Parabolic Trough Collector Rotatable About Polar Axis :

Salient Features :
Cylindrical reflector rotates about the polar axis. This permits fixed
speed, single axis tracking.
Manufacturing cylindrical shape is much easier than dish shape.
Average aperture area utilization is @ 95%. This is much higher than
Scheffler systems, which is @ 65%
Cost effective system.


Is it a solar application of this radio single reflector?
http://www.starantenna.com/yagi_antenna_with_reflector.htm


I can't seem to find any mention on Google of a vertical solar panel using
an open trough reflector.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2006\05\02@113910 by Peter

picon face

On Mon, 1 May 2006, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> I can't seem to find any mention on Google of a vertical solar panel using
> an open trough reflector.

The solar panel and the reflector are horizontal. Think of a trough
reflector with a pipe in the middle. Now remove the pipe and put it on
(almost) the ground. To make the trough illuminate it you have to tilt
the trough down. It becomes almost vertical. It is also no longer the
same shape (although the same shape will work fine for a simple trough
collector). You can also make the trough much larger now, as it
is shallower. 'Offset' sattelite dishes use the same idea.

Peter

2006\05\02@121956 by Peter

picon face

A picture that resembles what I described (offset trough):

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/astrop/most/index_files/MOST-pic-GW.jpg

It's a radio astronomy antenna but the idea is the same.

2006\05\02@122906 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
www.massmind.org/images/member/jmn-efp-786/sun/verticalcollector.gif
?

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2006\05\03@131720 by Peter

picon face


On Tue, 2 May 2006, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> www.massmind.org/images/member/jmn-efp-786/sun/verticalcollector.gif
> ?

Yes, more or less. Think about the possibilities: the pipe can be on the
ground or at a lower level, this allows natural convection to a storage
tank placed higher. The pipe need not move, it's enough to tilt the
collector. The tilt is smaller than that of a normal trough (half the
angle). Dirt won't stick to the almost vertical and shallow trough.

Peter


'[OT]:: Today's problem - send a parcel to Kristin'
2007\06\11@070921 by Russell McMahon
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A diversion for those who can be bothered:

Kristin is studying in Australia.
The weather is getting cold lately.
Russell & Valerie want to send her a box full of clothes, eiderdown,
text books and more.
The largest box that can be sent by parcel post is

   Largest side <= 1000 mm
   Sum of L +     2 x (D + H)  <= 2000 mm = Volume.weight = VW

       L     length
       D    depth
       H    Height

True volume is of course L x D x H

Assignment for students:


               What box dimensions maximise the true volume that can
be sent?
               Assume a rectangular box.

               Report time to solve.


The answer seems somehow obvious in retrospect but was annoyingly
unintuitive (to me).

Clue - of sorts:        John Crook will tell me that the answer is
obvious on inspection using information theory (he'll be right).




           Russell




_____________________________

Notes:

1.    I sent the parcel this evening - all 17.7 kg of it.

2.    Volume.Weight is actually a mongrel measure that is neither
volume per weight.

3.    2 x (D+H) is the "girth" - the distance around the box.
They seem to do it this way because they can do it with a pencil and
paper (or in their head) more easily than using multiplication.
What they REALLY want is volume.
The ideal shape (from a sender's point of view) maximises the true
volume per volume.weight.

ie              maximises     L x D x H / ( L + 2x(D+H))

However, for a fixed volume.weight, maximising volume does just as
well so maximising

   L x D x H while keeping

       L + 2 x (D+H) = 2000 mm does the same thing.

4.    We had a nice black plastic box with lid, plastic clip in
rollers and dimensions that *just* exceeded the allowable maximum VW
if you took the very outer measurements in each case. As this was
handles etc, and as the cross section was a trapezoid that was
substantially smaller than D x H so true VW was well under the limit,
it clearly met the spirit of the rules and MAY have met the letter
depending on the mood of the clerk concerned. I used it. They didn't
bother measuring it.



2007\06\11@083931 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face
I think the answer may have vaguely biblical connotations?


A square has the largest area for any given perimeter, so assume D=H.

Then volume = L*D^2, where L=2000-4D

volume = (2000-4D)*(D^2) = 2000D^2 - 4*D^3

Take the 1st differential and solve for zero:

 4000D - 12D^2 = 0

Simplify
 4000 - 12D = 0


12D = 4000 so D = 333.3

L = 2000 - (4*333.3) = 666.6


That took a few minutes but only because I haven't performed any calculus for a long while.  Then again, it might be wrong!

Regards

Mike





>{Original Message removed}

2007\06\11@133017 by Denny Esterline

picon face
Well a sphere has the lergest volume/area ratio, but since you insist on
some sort of rectangular shape, a cube is the next best.

And since cube means length=hieght=width...

your equation becomes:
X+ 2(X+X) = 2000
or
5X=2000
or
X=400

So a 40cm cubed box is the largest volume you can ship and meet those rules.

(took longer to wite it than it did to do it in my head)

-Denny



On 6/11/07, Russell McMahon <RemoveMEapptechRemoveMEspamRemoveMEparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\06\11@160435 by Chris McSweeny

picon face
Shame that's not the right answer :-)

I did the same thing as Michael (but took a little longer). The answer is
that L is twice D, H, which should presumably be intuitive...

On 6/11/07, Denny Esterline <desterlineKILLspamspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\06\11@184300 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
The most critical aspect of the whole scenario is that you have to
present it to the customer service representative in the correct (ie,
their) orientation.  Otherwise you'll end up paying more since you've
turned the D into L, and H into D!

:-P

-Adam

On 6/11/07, Chris McSweeny <TakeThisOuTcpmcsweenyspam_OUTspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2007\06\11@201353 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
I assumed that they meant, and I hoped that the CSR would have assumed
due to long exposure, that L is the largest side. But I am aware that
one can never be sure how other people will interpret things :-). As
it was, they didn't care at all. Their manager told them that for
parcels to Australia the size didn't matter. The website and common
sense suggests this interpretation is wrong, but I'm not complaining.



       Russell


> The most critical aspect of the whole scenario is that you have to
> present it to the customer service representative in the correct
> (ie,
> their) orientation.  Otherwise you'll end up paying more since
> you've
> turned the D into L, and H into D!

2007\06\11@234008 by PicDude

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face
I would think a cube.  For a given volume-weight, divide by 3 and make a cube
of that dimension on each side.



On Monday 11 June 2007 06:08, Russell McMahon wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\06\12@093031 by Jamesp

picon face

For a given volume, you can't simply divide by 3.  You'd have to take the
cube root of that volume to get the correct dimension.

Jim



{Quote hidden}

> --

'[OT]:: Today's problem - Adjust the anemometer'
2007\06\12@101253 by Russell McMahon

face
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Only if interested in problem solving (or you want to be able to
operate a doofa that uses the same system when you buy one next week):

I bought an anemometer at my local DSE store.
It came without the instruction sheet.

The instrument can measure air temperature in degrees C or degrees F
and air speed in knots, mph, fps, kph, mps. It can also calculate &
display wind chill factor. It can display the average air speed over
3,5,10 or 13 seconds or the maximum air speed since last turned on.

The controls consist of two push buttons -     on/off         and
mode.

Pressing and releasing on/off once turns it on.
Pressing and releasing on/off again turns it off.
Pressing and holding on/off when off turns it on and displays all LCD
segments. This shows all the parameters mentioned above. When the
button is then released it is on.

When turned on it started up in knots and degrees F.
When I then pressed the mode button it cycled through the various time
averaging settings and wind chill setting.

No amount of button pressing would persuade it to go to other speed or
temperature units.

Being an accomplished digital watch user, even though not of the
Nintendo (tm) generation, I know all about pushing several buttons at
once and holding buttons down and ... .

Hold mode down for a long time - nope.
Turn on while holding mode down - nope.
Press mode and on together - nope.

No amount of trying would change it into the other units of
measurement.

I returned to the shop (I had been sitting outside trying it out as
LONG experience told me that Murphy would rather I take it home
untried) where they discovered that they in fact did have an
instruction sheet. One glance told me how to change ranges. I left in
embarrassment.

Q1:    How do you change ranges?

Q2    Bonus question - The instrument will mainly be used to measure
air speed in ventilation ducts (actually untrue, but that's close
enough). What units of speed do I intend to leave it set to. Why?




       Russell

2007\06\12@103157 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesRemoveMEspam.....mit.edu [spampiclist-bouncesKILLspamspamKILLspammit.edu]
>On Behalf Of Russell McMahon
>Sent: 12 June 2007 15:12
>To: PIC List
>Subject: [OT]:: Today's problem - Adjust the anemometer
>
>
>Q1:    How do you change ranges?

At a guess, hold a button down and twirl the annemometer around?

>
>Q2    Bonus question - The instrument will mainly be used to measure
>air speed in ventilation ducts (actually untrue, but that's
>close enough). What units of speed do I intend to leave it set to. Why?

I would guess a fairly well established art such as ducting would probably be using imperial units, so I guess feet/second?

Cheers

Mike

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2007\06\12@103400 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Q1:    How do you change ranges?

Hold mode while turning the windmill?

> Q2    Bonus question - The instrument will mainly be used to measure
> air speed in ventilation ducts (actually untrue, but that's close
> enough). What units of speed do I intend to leave it set to. Why?

Whichever unit is smallest, to provide greatest resolution?  Unless my
maths deceive me, that would be kph...

Mike H.

2007\06\12@103602 by PAUL James

picon face

Russel,

A1.  How about spinning the annemometer while going through the menu.  I
would imagine it would need some sort of input to
    the speed measuring function to get an initial reading, then would
allow you to change the parameter related to speed.


A2.  Here I would imagine that you would choose mps (which I guess to
mean 'meters per second).   I guess this because you
    said you got the thing at the local DSE store, which I take to mean
"Dick Smith Electronics".  And since DSE is based
    in Australia, I'm assuming that is where you are.  And if this is
true, you would be using the metric system of measure.  
    So, knowing the volume of the duct, and the speed in mps, you can
calculate the flow rate readily.  


    These are just guesses mind you, so if I'm not even in the ball
park, don't hold it against me.


    When you get the chance, let us (me) know how I did.


    Have fun with your weather station.




       
Regards,

       
Jim
 




{Original Message removed}

2007\06\12@103659 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
A2: Chances are you'll be doing meters per second, as ventilation is
usually measure in volume per time, and distance per time is readily
converted to volume per time given the cross section of the tube.

You need to give us less information if you don't want Google to rescue us.

I expect you're using something similar to a Lacrosse EA3010, and even
if it's not the same model, the fact that there are only two buttons
and it includes the vast majority of the features you mention
indicates that it probably uses a similar interface.

You don't mention that you have to press and hold the power button to
turn it off, though.

I won't give it away for those who want to guess without looking up
"EA3010 instructions"

Though I'm curious why you went back to the shop for instructions -
perhaps if you were more of the nintendo generation you would have
checked google first?  ;-)

-Adam

On 6/12/07, Russell McMahon <spamapptechspam_OUTspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\06\12@104150 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
Russell,
I think you need a job.
:)

Vasile

On 6/12/07, Russell McMahon <STOPspamapptechspam_OUTspamspamBeGoneparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\06\12@114423 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I think you need a job.

I purchased the anemometer to do a specific job.
Being able to change ranges seemed  useful capability to have.

I thought others may benefit from my experience. It's evident from the
answers so far that I was correct :-)


       Russell


2007\06\12@114423 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Though I'm curious why you went back to the shop for instructions -
> perhaps if you were more of the nintendo generation you would have
> checked google first?  ;-)

I was sitting outside the shop trying it out. I KNOW that taking it
home and then trying it out is  a mistake, whatever it is. Usually it
is DOA, a bad remote, flat battery, missing cable etc. Some things
have to be taken home to try. Some don't.


       Russell





2007\06\12@114424 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
I imagined that that would be the same, but it's not!.
That looks very like the unit sold by Jaycar which appeared
functionally similar.
>From reading the manual-ette at
http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/ea3010/manual.pdf I find that there
are at least some things that the DSE unit does which seem preferable
to the Lacrosse unit, so I'm pleased that I bought the DSE unit.

FWIW the DSE unit sold for $140 or so retail until recently and is now
being end of line specialed for $79 retail. They haven't adjusted the
trade price so it's dearer to buy trade :-).

I could buy the Jaycar unit trade (actually wholesale) for less than
the DSE but have to buy on account and have it shipped and the DSE
unit was 'off the shelf' locally.

Seems to be slightly unbalanced in that the rotor returns to a
consistent home position. I may try balancing it - probably with
"correcting fluid" to start as it has "high build" characteristics, is
quick drying and easily removed. Ugly as a bonus.


> You need to give us less information if you don't want Google to
> rescue us.

Not in this case, as it happens :-)

> I expect you're using something similar


similar, yes

> indicates that it probably uses a similar interface.

similar, yes. But different enough to annoy. And actually better IMHO.

Which is an excellent lesson as I have learnt several things which
help open up my mental filters for future experiences.

> You don't mention that you have to press and hold the power button
> to
> turn it off, though.

I think I did fwiw.

>> Pressing and releasing on/off once turns it on.

>> Pressing and releasing on/off again turns it off.


> I won't give it away for those who want to guess without looking up
> "EA3010 instructions"

:-)

> Though I'm curious why you went back to the shop for instructions -
> perhaps if you were more of the nintendo generation you would have
> checked google first?  ;-)

As prior email - the shop was much closer than Google was on that
occasion.




       Russell

2007\06\12@114424 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> A2: Chances are you'll be doing meters per second, as ventilation is
> usually measure in volume per time, and distance per time is readily
> converted to volume per time given the cross section of the tube.

No.
I've set it to kph as 1m/s = 3.6 kph so the instrument has a higher
resolution in that mode.
Of knots, fps, m/s, kph - kph is the highest reading. Slightly higher
than fps.

While the accuracy may not support the higher resolution, at very low
air speeds the higher resolution is liable to be useful. I expect to
be dealing with speeds of under about 6 kph in most cases.


       Russell




2007\06\12@115142 by Hector Martin

flavicon
face
Russell McMahon wrote:
> Q1:    How do you change ranges?

Hidden button / switch in the back or battery compartment? (I've seen a
lot of these on thermometers for ºC/ºF)

> Q2    Bonus question - The instrument will mainly be used to measure
> air speed in ventilation ducts (actually untrue, but that's close
> enough). What units of speed do I intend to leave it set to. Why?
I'm going with m/s (meters per second). It's easy to convert to
volume/sec then, by multiplying by the cross section, and I'm going with
SI units because you don't need to be insane to use them, unlike other
systems :)

--
Hector Martin (spam_OUThectorspamspamBeGonemarcansoft.com)
Public Key: http://www.marcansoft.com/marcan.asc

2007\06\12@121122 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> I think you need a job.

He has a job - sending strange questions and interesting, but not useful
(although one likes to follow it up) information to the PICList ... ;))))

2007\06\12@121803 by Chris McSweeny

picon face
So has nobody got it yet? I'll have a stab at pressing the mode button
whilst holding the power button and all the bits of the display are lit up?

2007\06\12@122224 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesRemoveMEspammit.edu]
>On Behalf Of Russell McMahon
>Sent: 12 June 2007 16:23
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [OT]:: Today's problem - Adjust the anemometer
>
>
>Seems to be slightly unbalanced in that the rotor returns to a
>consistent home position. I may try balancing it - probably with
>"correcting fluid" to start as it has "high build" characteristics, is
>quick drying and easily removed. Ugly as a bonus.

Could this be caused by the (presumably) magnetic sensor that the rotor drives?

Regards

Mike

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2007\06\12@123400 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> I think you need a job.

> He has a job - sending strange questions and interesting, but not
> useful
> (although one likes to follow it up) information to the PICList ...
> ;))))

I resemble that!

And, fwiw, the last two "today's problem"s were real problems that I'd
(felt I) had to solve that day.

The anemometer adjustment "problem" answer is going to provide major
insight to some processor developers here.

I'd hope that some people find some of my posts not only interesting
but useful. In part I hope that as that would show that there are some
worthwhiley different people out there :-).
(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain ...) / (These are not
the ones you want ...).


       Russell


2007\06\12@123526 by Álvaro Deibe Díaz

picon face
> Q1:    How do you change ranges?

Here is my approach: hold one of the buttons (you need to try wich one of
them) while you RESET the unit (plug the batteries in).

:o)

Alvaro Deibe

2007\06\12@124123 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


{Quote hidden}

Ahh, you have to tap "CONFIGURE" into the mode button using morse code!

Mike

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services.
=======================================================================

'[OT]:: Today's problem - send a parcel to Kristin'
2007\06\12@124203 by PicDude

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Oops -- I was likening it to UPS here in the US.  They consider volume weight
to be L+H+D, so I was calculating the best volume/price to be a cube of
L=H=D.



On Monday 11 June 2007 22:29, jamespTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamintertex.net wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[OT]:: Today's problem - Adjust the anemometer'
2007\06\12@192959 by Russell McMahon

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Good try.
And I tried.
But, no.

> So has nobody got it yet? I'll have a stab at pressing the mode
> button
> whilst holding the power button and all the bits of the display are
> lit up?

I don't think anyone has got it yet - I may have missed it in the
rush. Off to be now - 4:35am here. I'll check when I wake and answer
if nobody's got it.


       Russell


2007\06\12@204813 by Russell McMahon

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> The controls consist of two push buttons -     on/off         and
> mode.

> Q1:    How do you change ranges?

> Q2    Bonus question - The instrument will mainly be used to measure
> air speed in ventilation ducts (actually untrue, but that's close
> enough). What units of speed do I intend to leave it set to. Why?

Answers below.
Don't read if you want to try and work it out yourself.

..









































Adjustment:

This was an extremely useful exercise for me (almost worth the cost of
the device for the lesson alone :-) ) as it showed me that, despite
the fact that I consider myself (in technical areas at least :-) ) a
flexible and lateral thinker, the very simple solution never occurred
to me. I was trapped within certain standard mental boundaries. The
switch labels helped but the choice was mine.

The conceptual leap that I failed to make is that the on/off switch is
not one strictly.

When the anemometer is "off", pressing the mode switch will cycle
through the velocity and temperature unit combinations. The selected
unit on the LCD 'lights' and steps with each button press.

This arrangement is not at all hard for the designers to do but/and
leads one to wonder what the device is *really* doing when one thinks
it is off. Presumably the anemometer sensor powering (if there is any
powering) is disabled and the thermistor temperature sensor is not
excited, the main LCD is off, and presumably the processor is off or
in a very low power mode. Battery current measurements would be
instructive. Very sneaky.

Range:

Due to use at low velocities I wanted the maximum available
resolution. Units can be converted or treated as arbitrary for my
purposes.

       1 m/s ~~= 2 knots ~= 2.25 mph  ~= 3.28 fps = 3.6 kph

So kph gives the highest reading and most resolution for a given air
speed.

I assume that the unit measures true speed in some internal unit such
as rotor sensor pulses per unit time, and converts these to
appropriate readings, so accuracy should not be affected by this
method. At low air speeds the % difference between steps is liable to
have a significant effect on the displayed accuracy. At high enough
air speeds the actual measurement accuracy will predominate.


           Russell


2007\06\13@091838 by Dave Lag

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Russell McMahon wrote:
>
> The conceptual leap that I failed to make is that the on/off switch is
> not one strictly.

Reminds me of the no-name digital caliper "quandry".
Off only kills the display-- so it always uses power.

But in practice how annoyed would I be if it had to assume
zero was the current setting on powerup? -
probably more- better that it keeps track of where it is
D

2007\06\13@115411 by Brooke Clarke

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Hi Russell:

Some comments about "Off".

I have within arm's reach a Harbor Freight (made in China) digital vernier
caliper that seems to eat batteries.  Then read a web page that had
demonstrations that proved that all the "Off" function did was turn off the
LCD.  All the rest of the functionality runs as long as the battery is
installed.  The Japanese calipers actually turn off and their batteries last a
very long time.  I've got quite good at pulling the battery.

I've been monitoring my sleep using a G-Pendant from Onset Computers for 3
months about 10 hours per day on the same 2032 battery. [PIC] It uses a 16F690
and the Analog Devices XL330 3-axis accelerometer.  Very cleaver design that
uses an optical I/O via USB.  A magnet is used to signal that I/O is desired
and can trigger the start of data logging.   Has no "Off" switch, but when not
logging a LED flashes very briefly with a period of 8 seconds.
http://www.prc68.com/I/GPend.shtml

I've read that here in California there may be rules on the way that will
specify how much power is consumed by "Off" electrical equipment.
--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.precisionclock.com

2007\06\13@123218 by Rich

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I wonder if they only turn off the LCD display in order to maintain
stability of measurement.  If you take a measurement when you first put the
batteries in and take the same measurement every 2 minutes for the first 20
minutes and then every 10 minutes over a period of at least 1 more hour and
you get the same measured reading every time then it is not an issue of
stability, just a crazy design or oversight.  But if you get different
measurements in the beginning and they change out over time you might want
to put the batteries in an hour before you intend to make measurements.

{Original Message removed}

2007\06\13@144316 by Matthew Mucker

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Wow.

That certainly explains why I need a new battery in my caliper so soon!  (I
was noticing this just the other day.)

{Original Message removed}


'[EE]:: Mars Rover Sojourner 10th anniversary today'
2007\07\06@104236 by Russell McMahon
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July 6th 1997.

2007\07\06@154314 by Cedric Chang

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Cedric
> On Jul 6, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Russell McMahon wrote:
>
> July 6th 1997.
>
> --

2007\07\06@155302 by Joshua Shriver

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Happy Birthday!

On 7/6/07, Cedric Chang <RemoveMEccTakeThisOuTspamnope9.com> wrote:
> Cedric
> > On Jul 6, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Russell McMahon wrote:
> >
> > July 6th 1997.
> >
> > --

2007\07\06@162753 by Goflo

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---- Russell McMahon <@spam@apptechSTOPspamspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> July 6th 1997.

An 8085!  You can't make this stuff up...  :)

Jack

2007\07\07@101338 by Mike Hord

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I'm always saddened by the image of Sojourner circling
its lander, endlessly and futilely searching for a signal
from Earth that will never come.

Of course, it probably didn't last that much longer than
the lander did, but that's what it was programmed to do
in case of emergency.

Mike H.

On 7/6/07, Russell McMahon <TakeThisOuTapptechTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> July 6th 1997.
>
> -


'[EE]:: "Today, the spaceship was born"'
2007\10\04@205340 by Russell McMahon
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And, it wasn't Sputnik 1!


       Russell

{Quote hidden}

'[EE] Free Hex Editor - Today only!'
2007\10\19@105714 by Josh Koffman

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Hi all. One of the websites I take a glance at every day is
http://www.giveawayoftheday.com/

Today their giveaway is a hex/binary editor. It's free but I believe
you have to install it today.

I haven't tried it, just thought I'd let you all know!

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

2007\10\19@172009 by Vitaliy

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Josh, is it any good?

2007\10\19@174656 by Joshua Shriver

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The best hex edit I've ever used has been khexedit, and it's free.

-Josh

On 10/19/07, Josh Koffman <spamBeGonejoshybearspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\10\19@175248 by William Bulley

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According to Joshua Shriver <EraseMEjshriver.....spamgmail.com>:
>
> The best hex edit I've ever used has been khexedit, and it's free.

I like this one:

> Visual Binary Diff (VBinDiff) displays files in hexadecimal
> and ASCII (or EBCDIC).  It can also display two files at once,
> and highlight the differences between them.  Unlike standard
> Unix diff(1), it works well with large files (up to 4 GB).
>
> WWW: <http://www.pobox.com/~cjm/vbindiff/>


Regards,

web...

--
William Bulley                     Email: spamwebKILLspamspam@spam@umich.edu

2007\10\19@183135 by Paul Anderson

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On 10/19/07, Vitaliy <spamspamspamTakeThisOuTmaksimov.org> wrote:
> Josh, is it any good?
>
It looks like it's not bad.  Another one I've been looking at is Hex
Workshop, I think it's better in truth.  It can take a hex number and
display it in decimal as a floating point value depending on variable
type.

--
Paul Anderson
VE6HOP
RemoveMEwackyvorlonRemoveMEspamgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com
"May the electromotive force be with you."

2007\10\19@184852 by James Newton

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010edit by sweetsoft. 'cause it's a HEX editor that can do STRUCTURES! And
then edit the data in the structure.

{Original Message removed}

2007\10\19@185051 by James Newton

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I have hexworkshop and am not altogether happy with it. For simple jobs, it
works. For complex structures, it breaks down. It also crashes from time to
time.

--
James.

{Original Message removed}

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