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PICList Thread
'response by Abu Kareem to Statement by Seven Organ'
1999\02\28@133244 by Mateen Siddiqui

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face
Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem was-salaat
was-salaam ala Rasulillah wa ala alihi wa
sahbihi wa sallam

AsSalamu alaykum wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatu

It is regretful but revealing that AMPCC,
AMA[alliance], AMC, CAIR,
MPAC,ICNA,ISNA,and MSA would issue a
statement condemning Shaykh
Hisham Kabbani's speech to the state
department. I pray this be
a hoax and that these organizations declare
themselves innocent
of this slanderous statement.

Notice that not one of Shaykh Hisham's
statements were refuted,
rather these organizations tried to quote out
of context to rally
Muslims away from a voice of moderation. The
condemnation is quoted
in full:

>MAJOR MUSLIM ORGANIZATIONS CONDEMN KABBANI'S
STATEMENTS
>American Muslim leaders demand retraction
and apology
>
>It is with heavy hearts that we, the
undersigned national American
>Muslim organizations, feel compelled to
defend our community and its
>representatives from false and defamatory
allegations.

Notice in what follows no statement is shown
to be false or defamatory
to anyone, except that the statements
criticize extremism.

As for the allegation that the Muslim
community needs a defense
against Shaykh Hisham, then this is a clearly
misleading statement
that falsely implies that Shaykh Hisham
accused the Muslim community
as a whole of extremism. His own words from
the speech refute that:

"This is what I want to say to you, to
present to you from within
 the Muslim community. We want to tell you
that the Muslim community
 as a whole is innocent from whatever
extremism and extremist ideology
 is being spread around the world."

>In a January 7, 1999, presentation to a
State Department Open Forum, Mr.
>Hisham Kabbani, Chairman of the self-styled
"Islamic Supreme Council of
>America," made a number of unsubstantiated
allegations that could have a
>profoundly negative impact on ordinary
American Muslims.

Another attempt to rally "ordinary" Muslims
against Shaykh Hisham Kabbani,
again without substantiation. The derogatory
tone of the authors and
lack of respect for a Muslim Shaykh is
obvious.


>In the State Department forum, Mr. Kabbani:
>
>1) Alleged that the "ideology of extremism
has been spread to eighty
>percent of the [American] Muslim
population." Having also stated that
>"extremists" gained control of American
mosques through elections, Mr.
>Kabbani further strengthens the impression
that the Muslim community as
>a whole is extremist.

A statement purposely taken out of context,
here is some context:

"...Extremism has been spread to 80 per cent
of the Muslim
population. Not all of them agree with
it..."

Therefore the word "spread" is clearly
indicated to mean that the
extremist ideology has reached 80% of Muslims
and not that 80% of
Muslims accepted it and became extremist.
This is a Shame on the
leaders of the organizations below that they
have to resort to such
quoting out of context to slander a Muslim
Shaykh. Several lines
later Shaykh Hisham said to confirm his view:

"...the Muslim community as a whole is
innocent from whatever
extremism and extremist ideology is being
spread around the world."

As for the second allegation, it comes from
these words regarding
extremists:

"They hijacked the mike, or they were elected
because they are
good speakers, but they give a wrong idea
about Islam."

Note that Shaykh Hisham differentiates
extremists as follows:

"There are two kinds of extremism: there is
the extremism ideology
and there is the extremist militant
movement."

The former type is the one Shaykh Hisham
points to as having
"hijacked the mike". He explains the rise of
Wahhabism, and
its attempted reformation of Islam.

Anyone who has been to many Islamic centers
in the US knows that
Wahhabi ideologies are widely spread among
leaders of many Mosques,
preventing Dhikr, cursing Tasawwuf,
preventing Mawlid et cetra. Notice
that overseas organizations that started
along similar Wahhabi trends
are now bombing Muslims in the Caucaus, Sudan
and many other places
in the name of purifying Islam from what they
view as 'Kufr, Bid'a and
Shirk', but in reality it is traditional
Islam they attack.

>2) Claimed that "there are many, many Muslim
organizations, that they
>speak on behalf of the Muslim community, but
in reality they are not
>moderate, but they are extremist...These
people are very well supported,
>very well affiliated with outside regimes,
that they have been sponsored
>by billions of dollars to be active within
the United States..."

These are actually parts of two different
paragraphs joined together
only in this letter by three dots "...". They
are actually paragraphs
apart. Here is more context:

"...there are many Muslim organizations that
claim to speak on
behalf of the Muslim community but that in
reality are not moderate,
but extremist. They hijacked the mike, or
they were elected because
they are good speakers, but they give a
wrong idea about Islam."

This is known to those with experience in
Islamic centers. Again
Shaykh Hisham confirms what the authors of
this letter try to hide,
that he views the Muslim community as
moderate. Shame on those
who slander Muslim Shaykhs with their lies.
The second half of that
(mis)quoted above comes in a different part
of the speech:

"You are not hearing the authentic voice of
Muslims, of moderate Muslims,
but you are hearing the extremist voice of
Muslims. That's why they are
getting a wrong idea, because the extremists
are very well supported,
are very well affiliated with outside
regimes that have sponsored them
with billions of dollars to be active in the
United States."

Again Shaykh Hisham confirms that Muslims in
general are moderate,
he states a well know fact that outside
regimes are supporting
extremist[ideological] views in the US.
Anyone who has been involved
in Islamic centers knows how certain
countries frequently will offer
to give free books with Wahhabi ideology, and
gradually take over or
have those who support their views take over
Islamic centers and
throw out authentic Muslims who speak the
truth. An example is the
preventers of Mawlid, celebration of the
birthday of the Prophet,
Salla Allahu alayhi wa Sallam, which is
practiced in nearly every
Islamic country, how many a Masjid today
following extremist leadership
has banned it and ridiculed its approval by
the overwhelming majority
of Islamic scholars.

>3) Claiming that the main national Muslim
student organization is "being
>run mostly by extremist ideology," Mr.
Kabbani raised the bizarre
>specter that the Bin Laden organization was
"able to buy more than 20
>atomic weapons, atomic nuclear heads, from
some Mafias in the ex-Soviet
>Union...and now they are hiring thousands of
scientists from the
>ex-Soviet in order to make these atomic
warheads into smaller
>partitions, smaller particles, in order to
be, like small chips to be
>put in any suit case, even in a handbag, and
be shipped anyplace,
>anywhere in the world...If these small
nuclear atomic warheads reach
>these (U.S.) universities, you don't know,
these students, what they are
>going to do, because their way of thinking
is brainwashed and limited."

Shaykh Hisham defined extremism as:

"Extremism in Islam, or in religion, is when
you use religion to
label intolerance, to turn from religion and
take ideas that you
can extract for yourself, or deduce for
yourself, and use to make
a militant movement and disturb the peace in
your country or around
the world."

He clarified that extremism may be
ideological or militant. Therefore
extremist ideology in Islam involves
intolerence and self deduced
Islamic rulings, and both of these have been
clearly seen from the
leadership of some Muslim student
oraganizations, some who frankly
say they do not care what the scholars of
Islam say, rather they
will deduce their own understandings of Quran
and Sunnah. Or they
demonstrate intolence to authentic Islam, as
Dhikr, Tasbih, Tasawwuf
et cetra, calling out "Bid'a", "Shirk",
"Kufr".

As to Bin Laden and his plans, then the
authors of this letter
of condemnation are speaking in ignorance of
the truth, and
throwing serious allegations on issues they
do not have knowledge
of simply because they sound unlikely to
them. Why would not a
well connected multi-millionare as Bin Laden
be able to procure
a few of the 22,000 Russian nuclear warheads
and hire for his
cause Russian scientists for a steep price,
when the Russians
are in very hard economic times. If he were
to find someone to
do a devious deed for him in this country,
and he has stated his
intention to get American blood, then is it
so absurd to believe
he would recruit a disgruntled misguided
student who has been
brainwashed into thinking he must get even
with America.

>Adding insult to injury, Mr. Kabbani even
promoted and generalized an
>allegation that Muslim women in Europe "who
are during the day, covered
>from top to bottom and, during the night,
have dates. They are dating
>high officials in many countries around the
world to take the
>information from them and to give it to the
extremists."

Another lie and quotation out of context. It
is truly amazing
that all these Muslim organizations who
signed below, if this is
truly their signature, would stoop this low
to slander a Muslim
Shaykh.

The lie:

"promoted and generalized an allegation that
Muslim women in
Europe..."

Here is the proper quote in context from
Shaykh Hisham's speech
after explaining how extremist organizations
are not following
Islam as is well known many sell drugs to get
cash for weapons
and supplies, he adds the following:

"Recently they found in London, between
London and France and all
that area in Western Europe, that there is a
big network of women
that one of the very famous Arabic
newspapers - either al Wasat
or al Watat al Arabi - revealed in a big
report two or three months
ago. They found a network run by Muslim
women who, during the day,
are covered from top to bottom and, during
the night, have dates.
They are dating high officials in many
countries around the world to
take the information from them and to give
it to the extremists. We
have to ask ourselves: is this Islamic or
un-Islamic?"

Note this is NOT generalized to Muslim women,
and again the point
which the authors of this condemnation try to
hide is that Sahykh
Hisham is defending Muslims from false Islam,
not as they falsely
claim attacking Muslims.

>Through outrageous statements such as these,
Mr. Kabbani has put the
>entire American Muslim community under
unjustified suspicion. In effect,
>Mr. Kabbani is telling government officials
that the majority of American
>Muslims pose a danger to our society.

Notice that not a single statement quoted
above justified the false
conclusion of the authors. The letter builds
itself up then ends up
being a slanderous baseless shameful gang
attack on a Muslim Shaykh
who has worked hard to promote Islamic unity
and understanding.

>Additionally, Islamophobic individuals and
groups may use these
>statements as an excuse to commit hate
crimes against Muslims of the
>kind witnessed following the bombing of the
Murrah Federal Building
>in Oklahoma City when Muslim-bashers, Steven
Emerson and others,
>offered similarly unsubstantiated claims
that Muslims were behind the
>attack.

The authors seemed to have missed the whole
point of Shaykh Hisham's
speech. There is no justification for
terrorism. There are no excuses
for hate crimes. Muslims will not stand
behind those who commit crimes
in the name of Islam. Islam is not extremist,
a few Muslims may be,
the Muslim community is innocent of their
deeds.

Furthermore the worst "Muslim-bashers" are
those who commit terrorism
and say it is Islam and that they are good
Muslims. Islam is more
harmed by those among us that "excuse"
extremism, than by those
outside us who may falsely allege that islam
is itself extreme.
In the latter case many people are wise
enough not to take a
non-Muslims view about Islam as being very
accurate.


>We therefore ask Mr. Kabbani to promptly and
publicly retract his
>statements, to apologize to the American
Muslim community, and to exert
>his utmost effort to undo the damage these
statements have done.

It seems that the apology should be from the
undersigned to
Shaykh Hisham for falsely representing his
speech as is clear
above and to the Muslim Community for lying
to them.

>The issue is not that of a mere difference
of opinion within an American
>religious community, but involves the
irresponsible act of providing
>false information to government officials.
This false information can
>jeopardize the safety and well being of our
community and hurt America
>itself by damaging its values of
inclusiveness, fairness, and liberty.

The undersigned seem to commend America for
its values of
"inclusiveness, fairness, and liberty". Yet
some affiliated
with them have notoriously banned and
slandered Shaykh Hisham
Kabbani. Shaykh Hisham held the Islamic Unity
Conference and
invited all, yet a concerted effort by
hypocrites was to prevent
people from attending a conference where
Terrorism was condemned
and Islam was declared innocent of Terrorism.
Those hypocrites
showed no inclusiveness, no fairness and no
liberty. They spread
false rumors about Shaykh Hisham throughout
Mosques and on
the internet. They tried their best as the
undersigned do today
to slander and destroy one who is working to
clear the name of Islam
and the majority of Muslims. The undersigned
never stood up to
defend the honor of a Shaykh of Islam, yet
when Extremism is
condemned they quickly organize to condemn
the one who has
condemned it.


>Signatories (in alphabetical order):
>
>American Muslim Political Coordination
Council (AMPCC)
>[American Muslim Alliance (AMA), American
Muslim Council (AMC), Council
>on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) &
Muslim Public Affairs Council
>(MPAC)]
>Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA)
>Islamic Society of North America (ISNA)
>Muslim Students Association of USA & Canada
(MSA)


May Allah guide us and Forgive us.

Allahumma salli wa sallim wa barik 'ala
Sayyidina Muhammad
wa 'ala Alihi wa Sahbihi wa al-Tabi'ina ila
yawm al-din

WasSalamu alaykum,

Abu Kareem


___________________________________________
An official statement will follow shortly

1999\02\28@161407 by Andy Kunz

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Mateen Siddiqui <spam_OUTmateensTakeThisOuTspamSUNNAH.ORG>

Next time please say [OT] when posting to the PIC list.

Andy

  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\02\28@163855 by Mark Willis

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I'll report this SPAMmer in a minute, folks - This is non-commercial
UBE (Unsolicited Bulk E-mail) but just as inappropriate as Commercial
UBE/UCE, it's not the content but the UNSOLICITED BULK part that I
detest.  Content is irrelevant, I'm on this list for PIC information
(and some occasional humor <G>)

 Gotta get Robin hanging first (to help her neck disk) so she heals up.

 Mark

1999\02\28@164235 by msahib

picon face
Dear brothers and sisters

The crux of the matter is that,  an UN-educated person, especially one
who has little or no in depth understanding of world politics and its
intricacies, one who cannot fathom the harm and dangers of his random
and non-coherent utterings could bring upon the ummmah should keep his
mouth tightly shut. Moreover, he represents a handful of people and has
self engrandoised his organization by such ominous sounding name as
SUPREME COUNCIL, which was not elected by the ummah at large to
represent them. This is not a legitimate organization to speak on behalf
of Muslims, full stop. So, we must ask most humbly that Mr Karbani
desists from any public statements concerning Muslims, as he has no
right what so ever to speak on behalf of us - none what so ever.

By the way, Mr Mateen Siddiqui: please remove my name from your spam
list.

Mateen Siddiqui wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\02\28@180317 by Mark Willis

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(PicList folks:  Here's my "LART" to the applicable people.

 What I found by looking things up here was that the PacBell.Net
account was used to send the e-mail (Dialup), and that Best.Net is the
ISP for TLG.Net, Meer.Net, and Sunnah.Org.  (T1 line to them from
Best.Net, too - <envy> <G>)

 If you send your own "LART", do paste in full headers as received at
your end - my full LART enclosed the full text of the post, so you could
say "full text of UBE available on request" if you want <G>

 Mark

---
 This 23k long UBE was posted to a mailing list (with 1700 plus
members) which I belong to.  It's not the content I object to here - I
don't care for ANY unsolicited Bulk e-mail, sent to me "postage due", in
effect.  Many members of the mailing list I'm on, get to pay by the byte
for their e-mail, so it costs them dearly.  And some of them will likely
complain as well.

 There is no difference in my eyes between Unsolicited Bulk e-mail that
has commercial content, from UBE that has non-commercial content, I
don't want EITHER in my in-box, nor does most anyone else.  Want to hear
me talk about how wonderful one electronics design is compared to
another - or want me to rant against how people with disabilities are
treated by DSHS and other government agencies at you, weekly?  I thought
not.

 My e-mail box is not for anyone & everyone with someone they're
unhappy about, to spew into.  It's for people who have something to say
to me, that I'm very likely rather interested in, or for the occasional
stranger to post personal messages to, to get to know me - not for
massive ranting tomes, whether they advocate buying "Zit-FREE" or some
other commercial scam, or they back some political position or another,
or whatever.

Best.Net:  These folks know enough to post to UseNet or put up a web
site & log it with search engines, same as any other clued person
would.  Please assist in getting clues to the clue-impaired, as needed,
here.  You provide connectivity to TLG.Net, Meer.Net, and Sunnah.Org,
AFAIK.

tlg.net,
meer.net:  The exch.wads.meer.net or exch.meer.net [140.174.164.96]
machine was used to relay this UBE "SPAM" to the mailing list I'm on;
it is still open to relaying 3rd party SMTP e-mail at this time, though
at least it ID stamps it!  Please also work with Sunah.Org to make sure
that this Bulk E-Mailer never does this again.

Sunnah.Org:  If Mateen Siddiqui <.....mateensKILLspamspam@spam@SUNNAH.ORG> did actually send
this huge diatribe to all & sundry, please nuke that account for for
abuse of the Internet.  I don't mind people sending other people long
e-mail, I don't see why the 1700 plus people on this electronics parts
related mailing list should get this, though.  Most Internet users do
not want to receive unsolicited Bulk e-mail, you offend many when you
treat them this way.

PacBell.Net:  Your ppp-206-170-2-18.sntc01.pacbell.net [206.170.2.18]
machine was the injection point for this UBE "SPAM", send to who knows
HOW many people (The list of recipients below is sorta huge!)

 Please investigate & take action per the AUP of the Internet as well
as your AUP's/TOS's - Thanks!

 Mark, mwillisspamKILLspamnwlink.com

 Full headers pasted:
---

1999\02\28@181349 by Andy Kunz

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At 03:01 PM 2/28/99 -0800, you wrote:
>(PicList folks:  Here's my "LART" to the applicable people.

Why not just wish the poor guy SHALOM!  That should get his dander up just
fine.

Andy

  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\02\28@182843 by Mark Willis

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Andy Kunz wrote:
>
> At 03:01 PM 2/28/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >(PicList folks:  Here's my "LART" to the applicable people.
>
> Why not just wish the poor guy SHALOM!  That should get his dander up just
> fine.
>
> Andy

 Let's do both & totally solve the problem and it's causes as well <G>
Since the LART's already shot off, I'm not going to worry about it!

 Mark


'response by Abu Kareem to Statement by Seven Organ'
1999\03\01@012616 by Mohammad Islam
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part 0 19454 bytes
<P>Mateen Siddiqui wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem was-salaat
<BR>was-salaam ala Rasulillah wa ala alihi wa
<BR>sahbihi wa sallam

<P>AsSalamu alaykum wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatu

<P>It is regretful but revealing that AMPCC,
<BR>AMA[alliance], AMC, CAIR,
<BR>MPAC,ICNA,ISNA,and MSA would issue a
<BR>statement condemning Shaykh
<BR>Hisham Kabbani's speech to the state
<BR>department. I pray this be
<BR>a hoax and that these organizations declare
<BR>themselves innocent
<BR>of this slanderous statement.

<P>Notice that not one of Shaykh Hisham's
<BR>statements were refuted,
<BR>rather these organizations tried to quote out
<BR>of context to rally
<BR>Muslims away from a voice of moderation. The
<BR>condemnation is quoted
<BR>in full:

<P>>MAJOR MUSLIM ORGANIZATIONS CONDEMN KABBANI'S
<BR>STATEMENTS
<BR>>American Muslim leaders demand retraction
<BR>and apology
<BR>>
<BR>>It is with heavy hearts that we, the
<BR>undersigned national American
<BR>>Muslim organizations, feel compelled to
<BR>defend our community and its
<BR>>representatives from false and defamatory
<BR>allegations.

<P>Notice in what follows no statement is shown
<BR>to be false or defamatory
<BR>to anyone, except that the statements
<BR>criticize extremism.

<P>As for the allegation that the Muslim
<BR>community needs a defense
<BR>against Shaykh Hisham, then this is a clearly
<BR>misleading statement
<BR>that falsely implies that Shaykh Hisham
<BR>accused the Muslim community
<BR>as a whole of extremism. His own words from
<BR>the speech refute that:

<P>&nbsp;"This is what I want to say to you, to
<BR>present to you from within
<BR>&nbsp; the Muslim community. We want to tell you
<BR>that the Muslim community
<BR>&nbsp; as a whole is innocent from whatever
<BR>extremism and extremist ideology
<BR>&nbsp; is being spread around the world."

<P>>In a January 7, 1999, presentation to a
<BR>State Department Open Forum, Mr.
<BR>>Hisham Kabbani, Chairman of the self-styled
<BR>"Islamic Supreme Council of
<BR>>America," made a number of unsubstantiated
<BR>allegations that could have a
<BR>>profoundly negative impact on ordinary
<BR>American Muslims.

<P>Another attempt to rally "ordinary" Muslims
<BR>against Shaykh Hisham Kabbani,
<BR>again without substantiation. The derogatory
<BR>tone of the authors and
<BR>lack of respect for a Muslim Shaykh is
<BR>obvious.

<P>>In the State Department forum, Mr. Kabbani:
<BR>>
<BR>>1) Alleged that the "ideology of extremism
<BR>has been spread to eighty
<BR>>percent of the [American] Muslim
<BR>population." Having also stated that
<BR>>"extremists" gained control of American
<BR>mosques through elections, Mr.
<BR>>Kabbani further strengthens the impression
<BR>that the Muslim community as
<BR>>a whole is extremist.

<P>A statement purposely taken out of context,
<BR>here is some context:

<P>"...Extremism has been spread to 80 per cent
<BR>of the Muslim
<BR>&nbsp;population. Not all of them agree with
<BR>it..."

<P>Therefore the word "spread" is clearly
<BR>indicated to mean that the
<BR>extremist ideology has reached 80% of Muslims
<BR>and not that 80% of
<BR>Muslims accepted it and became extremist.
<BR>This is a Shame on the
<BR>leaders of the organizations below that they
<BR>have to resort to such
<BR>quoting out of context to slander a Muslim
<BR>Shaykh. Several lines
<BR>later Shaykh Hisham said to confirm his view:

<P>"...the Muslim community as a whole is
<BR>innocent from whatever
<BR>&nbsp;extremism and extremist ideology is being
<BR>spread around the world."

<P>As for the second allegation, it comes from
<BR>these words regarding
<BR>extremists:

<P>"They hijacked the mike, or they were elected
<BR>because they are
<BR>&nbsp;good speakers, but they give a wrong idea
<BR>about Islam."

<P>Note that Shaykh Hisham differentiates
<BR>extremists as follows:

<P>"There are two kinds of extremism: there is
<BR>the extremism ideology
<BR>&nbsp;and there is the extremist militant
<BR>movement."

<P>The former type is the one Shaykh Hisham
<BR>points to as having
<BR>"hijacked the mike". He explains the rise of
<BR>Wahhabism, and
<BR>its attempted reformation of Islam.

<P>Anyone who has been to many Islamic centers
<BR>in the US knows that
<BR>Wahhabi ideologies are widely spread among
<BR>leaders of many Mosques,
<BR>preventing Dhikr, cursing Tasawwuf,
<BR>preventing Mawlid et cetra. Notice
<BR>that overseas organizations that started
<BR>along similar Wahhabi trends
<BR>are now bombing Muslims in the Caucaus, Sudan
<BR>and many other places
<BR>in the name of purifying Islam from what they
<BR>view as 'Kufr, Bid'a and
<BR>Shirk', but in reality it is traditional
<BR>Islam they attack.

<P>>2) Claimed that "there are many, many Muslim
<BR>organizations, that they
<BR>>speak on behalf of the Muslim community, but
<BR>in reality they are not
<BR>>moderate, but they are extremist...These
<BR>people are very well supported,
<BR>>very well affiliated with outside regimes,
<BR>that they have been sponsored
<BR>>by billions of dollars to be active within
<BR>the United States..."

<P>These are actually parts of two different
<BR>paragraphs joined together
<BR>only in this letter by three dots "...". They
<BR>are actually paragraphs
<BR>apart. Here is more context:

<P>"...there are many Muslim organizations that
<BR>claim to speak on
<BR>&nbsp;behalf of the Muslim community but that in
<BR>reality are not moderate,
<BR>&nbsp;but extremist. They hijacked the mike, or
<BR>they were elected because
<BR>&nbsp;they are good speakers, but they give a
<BR>wrong idea about Islam."

<P>This is known to those with experience in
<BR>Islamic centers. Again
<BR>Shaykh Hisham confirms what the authors of
<BR>this letter try to hide,
<BR>that he views the Muslim community as
<BR>moderate. Shame on those
<BR>who slander Muslim Shaykhs with their lies.
<BR>The second half of that
<BR>(mis)quoted above comes in a different part
<BR>of the speech:

<P>"You are not hearing the authentic voice of
<BR>Muslims, of moderate Muslims,
<BR>&nbsp;but you are hearing the extremist voice of
<BR>Muslims. That's why they are
<BR>&nbsp;getting a wrong idea, because the extremists
<BR>are very well supported,
<BR>&nbsp;are very well affiliated with outside
<BR>regimes that have sponsored them
<BR>&nbsp;with billions of dollars to be active in the
<BR>United States."

<P>Again Shaykh Hisham confirms that Muslims in
<BR>general are moderate,
<BR>he states a well know fact that outside
<BR>regimes are supporting
<BR>extremist[ideological] views in the US.
<BR>Anyone who has been involved
<BR>in Islamic centers knows how certain
<BR>countries frequently will offer
<BR>to give free books with Wahhabi ideology, and
<BR>gradually take over or
<BR>have those who support their views take over
<BR>Islamic centers and
<BR>throw out authentic Muslims who speak the
<BR>truth. An example is the
<BR>preventers of Mawlid, celebration of the
<BR>birthday of the Prophet,
<BR>Salla Allahu alayhi wa Sallam, which is
<BR>practiced in nearly every
<BR>Islamic country, how many a Masjid today
<BR>following extremist leadership
<BR>has banned it and ridiculed its approval by
<BR>the overwhelming majority
<BR>of Islamic scholars.

<P>>3) Claiming that the main national Muslim
<BR>student organization is "being
<BR>>run mostly by extremist ideology," Mr.
<BR>Kabbani raised the bizarre
<BR>>specter that the Bin Laden organization was
<BR>"able to buy more than 20
<BR>>atomic weapons, atomic nuclear heads, from
<BR>some Mafias in the ex-Soviet
<BR>>Union...and now they are hiring thousands of
<BR>scientists from the
<BR>>ex-Soviet in order to make these atomic
<BR>warheads into smaller
<BR>>partitions, smaller particles, in order to
<BR>be, like small chips to be
<BR>>put in any suit case, even in a handbag, and
<BR>be shipped anyplace,
<BR>>anywhere in the world...If these small
<BR>nuclear atomic warheads reach
<BR>>these (U.S.) universities, you don't know,
<BR>these students, what they are
<BR>>going to do, because their way of thinking
<BR>is brainwashed and limited."

<P>Shaykh Hisham defined extremism as:

<P>"Extremism in Islam, or in religion, is when
<BR>you use religion to
<BR>&nbsp;label intolerance, to turn from religion and
<BR>take ideas that you
<BR>&nbsp;can extract for yourself, or deduce for
<BR>yourself, and use to make
<BR>&nbsp;a militant movement and disturb the peace in
<BR>your country or around
<BR>&nbsp;the world."

<P>He clarified that extremism may be
<BR>ideological or militant. Therefore
<BR>extremist ideology in Islam involves
<BR>intolerence and self deduced
<BR>Islamic rulings, and both of these have been
<BR>clearly seen from the
<BR>leadership of some Muslim student
<BR>oraganizations, some who frankly
<BR>say they do not care what the scholars of
<BR>Islam say, rather they
<BR>will deduce their own understandings of Quran
<BR>and Sunnah. Or they
<BR>demonstrate intolence to authentic Islam, as
<BR>Dhikr, Tasbih, Tasawwuf
<BR>et cetra, calling out "Bid'a", "Shirk",
<BR>"Kufr".

<P>As to Bin Laden and his plans, then the
<BR>authors of this letter
<BR>of condemnation are speaking in ignorance of
<BR>the truth, and
<BR>throwing serious allegations on issues they
<BR>do not have knowledge
<BR>of simply because they sound unlikely to
<BR>them. Why would not a
<BR>well connected multi-millionare as Bin Laden
<BR>be able to procure
<BR>a few of the 22,000 Russian nuclear warheads
<BR>and hire for his
<BR>cause Russian scientists for a steep price,
<BR>when the Russians
<BR>are in very hard economic times. If he were
<BR>to find someone to
<BR>do a devious deed for him in this country,
<BR>and he has stated his
<BR>intention to get American blood, then is it
<BR>so absurd to believe
<BR>he would recruit a disgruntled misguided
<BR>student who has been
<BR>brainwashed into thinking he must get even
<BR>with America.

<P>>Adding insult to injury, Mr. Kabbani even
<BR>promoted and generalized an
<BR>>allegation that Muslim women in Europe "who
<BR>are during the day, covered
<BR>>from top to bottom and, during the night,
<BR>have dates. They are dating
<BR>>high officials in many countries around the
<BR>world to take the
<BR>>information from them and to give it to the
<BR>extremists."

<P>Another lie and quotation out of context. It
<BR>is truly amazing
<BR>that all these Muslim organizations who
<BR>signed below, if this is
<BR>truly their signature, would stoop this low
<BR>to slander a Muslim
<BR>Shaykh.

<P>The lie:

<P>"promoted and generalized an allegation that
<BR>Muslim women in
<BR>&nbsp;Europe..."

<P>Here is the proper quote in context from
<BR>Shaykh Hisham's speech
<BR>after explaining how extremist organizations
<BR>are not following
<BR>Islam as is well known many sell drugs to get
<BR>cash for weapons
<BR>and supplies, he adds the following:

<P>"Recently they found in London, between
<BR>London and France and all
<BR>&nbsp;that area in Western Europe, that there is a
<BR>big network of women
<BR>&nbsp;that one of the very famous Arabic
<BR>newspapers - either al Wasat
<BR>&nbsp;or al Watat al Arabi - revealed in a big
<BR>report two or three months
<BR>&nbsp;ago. They found a network run by Muslim
<BR>women who, during the day,
<BR>&nbsp;are covered from top to bottom and, during
<BR>the night, have dates.
<BR>&nbsp;They are dating high officials in many
<BR>countries around the world to
<BR>&nbsp;take the information from them and to give
<BR>it to the extremists. We
<BR>&nbsp;have to ask ourselves: is this Islamic or
<BR>un-Islamic?"

<P>Note this is NOT generalized to Muslim women,
<BR>and again the point
<BR>which the authors of this condemnation try to
<BR>hide is that Sahykh
<BR>Hisham is defending Muslims from false Islam,
<BR>not as they falsely
<BR>claim attacking Muslims.

<P>>Through outrageous statements such as these,
<BR>Mr. Kabbani has put the
<BR>>entire American Muslim community under
<BR>unjustified suspicion. In effect,
<BR>>Mr. Kabbani is telling government officials
<BR>that the majority of American
<BR>>Muslims pose a danger to our society.

<P>Notice that not a single statement quoted
<BR>above justified the false
<BR>conclusion of the authors. The letter builds
<BR>itself up then ends up
<BR>being a slanderous baseless shameful gang
<BR>attack on a Muslim Shaykh
<BR>who has worked hard to promote Islamic unity
<BR>and understanding.

<P>>Additionally, Islamophobic individuals and
<BR>groups may use these
<BR>>statements as an excuse to commit hate
<BR>crimes against Muslims of the
<BR>>kind witnessed following the bombing of the
<BR>Murrah Federal Building
<BR>>in Oklahoma City when Muslim-bashers, Steven
<BR>Emerson and others,
<BR>>offered similarly unsubstantiated claims
<BR>that Muslims were behind the
<BR>>attack.

<P>The authors seemed to have missed the whole
<BR>point of Shaykh Hisham's
<BR>speech. There is no justification for
<BR>terrorism. There are no excuses
<BR>for hate crimes. Muslims will not stand
<BR>behind those who commit crimes
<BR>in the name of Islam. Islam is not extremist,
<BR>a few Muslims may be,
<BR>the Muslim community is innocent of their
<BR>deeds.

<P>Furthermore the worst "Muslim-bashers" are
<BR>those who commit terrorism
<BR>and say it is Islam and that they are good
<BR>Muslims. Islam is more
<BR>harmed by those among us that "excuse"
<BR>extremism, than by those
<BR>outside us who may falsely allege that islam
<BR>is itself extreme.
<BR>In the latter case many people are wise
<BR>enough not to take a
<BR>non-Muslims view about Islam as being very
<BR>accurate.

<P>>We therefore ask Mr. Kabbani to promptly and
<BR>publicly retract his
<BR>>statements, to apologize to the American
<BR>Muslim community, and to exert
<BR>>his utmost effort to undo the damage these
<BR>statements have done.

<P>It seems that the apology should be from the
<BR>undersigned to
<BR>Shaykh Hisham for falsely representing his
<BR>speech as is clear
<BR>above and to the Muslim Community for lying
<BR>to them.

<P>>The issue is not that of a mere difference
<BR>of opinion within an American
<BR>>religious community, but involves the
<BR>irresponsible act of providing
<BR>>false information to government officials.
<BR>This false information can
<BR>>jeopardize the safety and well being of our
<BR>community and hurt America
<BR>>itself by damaging its values of
<BR>inclusiveness, fairness, and liberty.

<P>The undersigned seem to commend America for
<BR>its values of
<BR>"inclusiveness, fairness, and liberty". Yet
<BR>some affiliated
<BR>with them have notoriously banned and
<BR>slandered Shaykh Hisham
<BR>Kabbani. Shaykh Hisham held the Islamic Unity
<BR>Conference and
<BR>invited all, yet a concerted effort by
<BR>hypocrites was to prevent
<BR>people from attending a conference where
<BR>Terrorism was condemned
<BR>and Islam was declared innocent of Terrorism.
<BR>Those hypocrites
<BR>showed no inclusiveness, no fairness and no
<BR>liberty. They spread
<BR>false rumors about Shaykh Hisham throughout
<BR>Mosques and on
<BR>the internet. They tried their best as the
<BR>undersigned do today
<BR>to slander and destroy one who is working to
<BR>clear the name of Islam
<BR>and the majority of Muslims. The undersigned
<BR>never stood up to
<BR>defend the honor of a Shaykh of Islam, yet
<BR>when Extremism is
<BR>condemned they quickly organize to condemn
<BR>the one who has
<BR>condemned it.

<P>>Signatories (in alphabetical order):
<BR>>
<BR>>American Muslim Political Coordination
<BR>Council (AMPCC)
<BR>>[American Muslim Alliance (AMA), American
<BR>Muslim Council (AMC), Council
<BR>>on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) &amp;
<BR>Muslim Public Affairs Council
<BR>>(MPAC)]
<BR>>Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA)
<BR>>Islamic Society of North America (ISNA)
<BR>>Muslim Students Association of USA &amp; Canada
<BR>(MSA)

<P>May Allah guide us and Forgive us.

<P>Allahumma salli wa sallim wa barik 'ala
<BR>Sayyidina Muhammad
<BR>wa 'ala Alihi wa Sahbihi wa al-Tabi'ina ila
<BR>yawm al-din

<P>WasSalamu alaykum,

<P>Abu Kareem

<P>___________________________________________
<BR>An official statement will follow shortly</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

</x-html>

1999\03\01@033148 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
You know, I'm starting to think that we're facing someone who is
intentionally using forwarding addresses to "proxy subscribe" others to
the list -

 IName or the like, perhaps?

 Mark

Mohammad Islam wrote:
>
> Please remove my name from this list. I never gave my permission to
> add my name!
>

1999\03\01@061155 by Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt

flavicon
face
Mark Willis wrote:
>
> You know, I'm starting to think that we're facing someone who is
> intentionally using forwarding addresses to "proxy subscribe" others to
> the list -
>
>   IName or the like, perhaps?
>
>   Mark

I4m sometimes thinking the people are looking for pic4s when they
subscribe - ahhhhh - pic4s of "naked girls" I assume ....

just an Idea ?

1999\03\01@063320 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt wrote:
>
> Mark Willis wrote:
> >
> > You know, I'm starting to think that we're facing someone who is
> > intentionally using forwarding addresses to "proxy subscribe" others to
> > the list -
> >
> >   IName or the like, perhaps?
> >
> >   Mark
>
> I4m sometimes thinking the people are looking for pic4s when they
> subscribe - ahhhhh - pic4s of "naked girls" I assume ....
>
> just an Idea ?

 You could be right, but you'd think they'd keep the UnSubscribe
instructions for a day or two, just in case they were, instead of
pictures of nude women, pictures of naked just-washed long-haired
housecats (NOT pretty, or happy, pictures, I guarantee you!  But this
isn't a cat humor list <G>)

 And: when Jory nukes the IName accounts, it seems to clear the problem
up for a time...

 Also: we seem to get political soapboxing and "I never subscribed to
this list" gripes, not "Whatdya mean, PINS on a Pic?  None of the
pictures I take have sharp metal pins on 'em, here's one to prove it!" -
followed by a picture that's NOT of a wet cat;

 So, I submit to you that, while the experimental data we have doesn't
completely discredit your theory, it seems to support mine somewhat
more, to myself at least <EG>

 (We could put a PIC project together to take a vote on this, that's
how to make this back On Topic! <G>)

 Mark, who's obviously awake far too late tonight, so he's off to bed!

1999\03\01@082258 by Nabil Nawaz

flavicon
face
saalam,
please remove me from the mailing list.

{Quote hidden}

1999\03\01@100920 by er Alshawa (Abu Amin)
flavicon
face
It is really rude from the followers of the Kabbani cult to start this
chain postings.  You know people get upset and this is not the first time
for the Kabbanies to do it. Do not send me any mail again.

To all others, do not reply to this message or to any other message so
that we will not create a chain response.  Instead, you may complain to
"abuse" about this irresponsible act.

Amer


On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Nabil Nawaz wrote:

> saalam,
> please remove me from the mailing list.
>
> > {Original Message removed}

1999\03\01@143754 by Hussein Al-Hussein

flavicon
face
Assalamu Alaikum,

Brother Mateen, I do not know who you are trying to fool with this playing
with words reply trying to defend your Sheikh. No wonder it took you much
longer time than your usual time in rushing to defend him. This is was too
much to defend and needed a lot of time to work around your Sheikhs
reckless accusations against Muslims. You also wanted people to froget the
origina, message before replying in defense.

I myself strongly support  the message of the natinal Muslim organizations
condemning Qabbani's slanderous message of the Muslims orgnizations.

Qabbani needs to submit authentic proofs that billions of dollars come
from foreign countries to Muslims. Can provide a single copy of a bill or
payment? All non-profit organizations heling refugees and victims in
Northa America with Islamic affiliation barely sum up to 10 million
dollars; that is less than $2 for each Muslim in North America.

Qabbani needs to submit scientific proofs that there are 20 nucleour bombs
stolen and chopped into lego chip size and carried to USA. We spare him
the scientific proof of the capability of doing that (splitting the bomb
into pieces and then assembling it); unless he has done it before.

We also refuse to co-operate with any association affiliating itself with
Qabbani until he either pulls back his message or they dissociate
themselves from him and his self appointment of himself as the head of the
so called supreme counsil of Muslims in North America.

Salam,
Hussein

1999\03\01@171951 by n/a

flavicon
face
Mr. EraseMEmsahibspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuThome.com:

Perhaps you should put your head where your mouth is. And learn Adab
101, since you and your Wahhabi friends seem to have abandoned the
importance of it.

msahibspamspam_OUThome.com wrote:
>
> Dear brothers and sisters
>
> The crux of the matter is that,  an UN-educated person, especially one

Shaykh Hisham Kabbani is a real scholar and Shaykh, not one who
memorized "bid`a, shirk and kufr" to become a "Salafi" scholar in one
day. He is learned. He has ijaza. He is a Shaykh of shari`a and
tasawwuf.

Only those who are ignorant will make such arrogant, baseless claims as
you have. Scholars worldwide have recognized his scholarship. What are
your credentials that you call people "UN-educated"?


> who has little or no in depth understanding of world politics and its
> intricacies, one who cannot fathom the harm and dangers of his random
> and non-coherent utterings could bring upon the ummmah should keep his
> mouth tightly shut. Moreover, he represents a handful of people and has

Perhaps it is you who needs to keep his mouth tightly shut. If you know
politics so well, and you care about the ummah so much, why don't you do
something for it. Shaykh Kabbani has world-wide recognition. EVEN THE
PRESIDENT OF CHECHNYA IS UNDER BAYA WITH HIM. What have you done? And
who endorses you? Even your friends at ISNA, ICNA et al haven't made you
their leader.

Shaykh Kabbani has been chosen by many many Muslims across America, and
even across the world, to be their leader.

> self engrandoised his organization by such ominous sounding name as
> SUPREME COUNCIL, which was not elected by the ummah at large to
> represent them. This is not a legitimate organization to speak on behalf

The Ummah at large holds the viewpoints he propagates... not the
extremist, accusatory viewpoint you promote. His -IS- the SUPREME
COUNCIL; He is an authority in Islamic thought. HE is a real Shaykh, a
real scholar, who dedicated and dedicates his life for Islam. Unlike
your leaders who study Islam for several years and are the real
'self-proclaimed' scholars and leaders. Why don't you look up Muzammil
Siddiqi's history?... In California at his masjid, where he's a
self-proclaimed "leader" there. Why don't you yourself research how he
took over, and whether communities, including his own, across America
recognize his leadership voluntarily. This is leadership?

And Masha'Allah, we have seen Sayyid Syeed's integrity presented in a
previous issue of The Muslim Magazine. And numerous Muslims have seen
his (and his supporters) character in meeting and/or working with them.

Shaykh Kabbani was chosen to be leader by many Muslims across America.
Not only that, many Muslims turn to him to take leadership of the
traditional Islamic viewpoint in America.

Those who have witnessed the work of other organizations and that of
Shaykh Kabbani, love to identify themselves with him. On the other hand,
those who are jealous have proven themselves unworthy when they did
their best to slander and defame Shaykh Kabbani.

> of Muslims, full stop. So, we must ask most humbly that Mr Karbani
> desists from any public statements concerning Muslims, as he has no

It is YOU who should "desist from any publice statements concerning
Muslims" when you do not even know how the majority of Muslims think or
feel. Many Muslims have addressed their concerns and expressed their
viewpoints to him. The Muslims who identify with his viewpoints number
much more than you and your friends.

Muslims have given Shaykh Kabbani the right to speak on their behalf.

Nonetheless, FYI, Shaykh Kabbani made clear in his talk that he was
speaking on behalf of "many, many Muslims", and not "all Muslims" as you
assert. Here is a quote from his talk:

"On behalf of the Islamic Supreme Council of America, and many, many
Muslims - because I cannot speak on behalf of all Muslims, as many
non-profit organizations in America do. Immediately when something
happens in the Middle East or that region they send media alerts saying
they are speaking on behalf of the whole Muslim community, which is
completely incorrect. So on behalf of many Muslims, ... "


Was-salaamalaykum.

-Portia Muhammad Shah


> right what so ever to speak on behalf of us - none what so ever.
>
> By the way, Mr Mateen Siddiqui: please remove my name from your spam
> list.
>

1999\03\01@175051 by Mustafa Naqib

flavicon
face
Hi Amer,
    Yes I am a subscriber to pic microcontroller discussion list  which I
assume that you are too , otherwise I would not have had the chance to read
your reply to the list below .Please forgive my bad habit of not including
the original message when sending one, I just dont like the idea of one's
reading his own massage again in order to read the other's.
I have been working in Columbus for the past three years in a food business,
and in order not to feel so sorry for myself for wasting time on labor , I
used the same time for independent research and education, the way I always
liked to go, building a humble but fully equipped , modern laboratory was
part of my remedy. As you know I have wasted time in the past just thinking
of earning a degree but with no action, and if you ask me now : " what would
you like to change had you been able to turn back time? I would say I wish I
never wasted time being afraid of others' disapproval of having it my way".
Amer, mabrook having Afaf and all that follows after her.
No I have not got married yet , and as you well know the longer you wait the
more difficult it becomes, not for the lack of choices but for the
compatibility issue.
Amer , like the old saying :"may a chance be better than a thousand date" we
connected today according to this principle and I will ask Allah to send me
a wife the same way . Say aameen.

Mustafa Naqib
366 E 15 TH  Ave   # B
Columbus, OH  43201
TEL : (614) 421 5891
FAX : (614) 421 5891
e-mail : @spam@m.naqibKILLspamspamgte.net
{Original Message removed}

1999\03\01@175307 by msahib

picon face
DEAR sister Portia: salaams

I am only asking you for ONE favor: PLS. take my name off your Karbani mailing
list. Also, there are  many other brothers and sisters asking your org. to
delete their names, but you ignore their requests.

As for the remarks you have made, it is full of contradictions and falsehood
and it does not deserve a response.

M.S
=============================
Portia Shah wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\03\01@181149 by Gabriel Gonzalez

flavicon
face
Maybe a subscription verification should be implemented to prevent unwanted
subscriptions.

Gabriel

{Original Message removed}

1999\03\01@191150 by ryan pogge

flavicon
face
i just rejoinjd after being gone for a few weeks,
and I just want to say,
what the hell is this crap...
use subscription verification like the parallax list.
PLEASE!!!!!!
thank you,
RYan



----- Original Message -----
From: Gabriel Gonzalez <spamBeGonetgospamBeGonespamCHIH1.TELMEX.NET.MX>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: response by Abu Kareem to Statement by Seven
Organizations


>Maybe a subscription verification should be implemented to
prevent unwanted
>subscriptions.
>
>Gabriel
>
>{Original Message removed}

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