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PICList Thread
'Help With LCD panels PLS'
1997\03\24@054835 by efoc

flavicon
face
Hello PPL,

       I know this is a little of topic but belive me I have tried nearly all
other sources that I can think of.

       My question is this ..... does anybody know the pinouts of an LCD
pannel marked up as LM64xxxx I came out of an old laptop PC and is
manufactured by SHARP it has 15 input pins with pin 4 missing.

       I would like any information on the electrical conections and any
programming informatio  anybody might have on it.

       It is my intention to build a digital scope utilising a pic or two and
display the results on the panel.

Cheers Peter ..........

==================================
New Ideas come from those who
didn't know it wasn't possible
==================================


'Very non-PIC - Prototype panel labeling'
1998\03\25@165131 by Harold Hallikainen
picon face
       We've been experimenting with various methods of labeling
prototype front panels.  The latest trick is use iron-on transfers run
thru an ink jet printer.  It's a bit tricky, but it works.
       I'm wondering, however, about using a flat bed plotter to print
such panels.  I've got this Houston Instruments DMP-29 plotter (from way
before I generated Gerber files for PCBs).  Anyone have any ideas about
pens that could be used in that to write on aluminum panels?

Thanks!

Harold

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

1998\03\25@172308 by Martin R. Green

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face
Sure, what you need is an instant drying pen like those used by
photographers to write on the front of photo's.  You can always check
a photo store, but I have been using a common office waterproof pen
lately with great results on all surfaces.  Try the Staedler LumoColor
AV permanent pens.  These are designed for overhead projectors.  There
are similar non-permanent pens available from Staedler, so be sure you
get the right ones.  The giveaway is the words "Permanent" and
"Waterproof" and the Staedler number 313.  I usually use the S size,
but you can get them in several tip sizes.  Start with the S though, I
think it is your best bet.  My local Office Depot and Grand & Toy
stores carry them individually and in packs of four colours (black,
red, blue and green).

Incidentally, I suspect this pen would make a good etchant resist too
for those interested in plotting PCB pattern directly to copper.

Good luck - Martin.
spam_OUTmrgreenTakeThisOuTspamNOSPAMbigfoot.com

Remove the NOSPAM from this email address before replying.
Stamp out SPAM everywhere!!!

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:37:13 EST, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\03\25@234302 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Harold Hallikainen wrote:

>         We've been experimenting with various methods of labeling
> prototype front panels.  The latest trick is use iron-on transfers run
> thru an ink jet printer.  It's a bit tricky, but it works.
>         I'm wondering, however, about using a flat bed plotter to print
> such panels.  I've got this Houston Instruments DMP-29 plotter (from way
> before I generated Gerber files for PCBs).  Anyone have any ideas about
> pens that could be used in that to write on aluminum panels?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Harold

Use an etch-resist pen. Etch it and paint the unetched surface. Looks cool.

BTW please use [OT] in off-topic mail in future.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
.....tjaartKILLspamspam@spam@wasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| WASP International http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html |
|       R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development    |
|   Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer  |
|    Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686 | Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973    |
|              WGS-84 : 26¡10.52'S 28¡06.19'E                 |
|_____________________________________________________________|

1998\03\26@041433 by wwl

picon face
On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:37:13 EST, you wrote:

>        We've been experimenting with various methods of labeling
>prototype front panels.  The latest trick is use iron-on transfers run
>thru an ink jet printer.  It's a bit tricky, but it works.
>        I'm wondering, however, about using a flat bed plotter to print
>such panels.  I've got this Houston Instruments DMP-29 plotter (from way
>before I generated Gerber files for PCBs).  Anyone have any ideas about
>pens that could be used in that to write on aluminum panels?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Harold
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
One very cheap and quick method I sometimes use is to laser print on
plain  A4 laser labels, stick it to the panel, and then cover with the
clear sticky plastic film used for covering books. Holes can be easily
cut out with a scalpel, either after sticking to the (pre-drilled)
panel or beforehand if they are marked on the label. This gives a very
durable and quite reasonable looking label for very little effort.  
You just need to be careful to avoid bubbles under the film.
    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / wwlspamKILLspamnetcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/


'Electroluminescent panel power controller.'
1998\11\26@084215 by Gerry Cox
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I want to design a low cost Electroluminescent panel drive (Output is 280
VAC @ 450Hz and 6Watts. Input power available is at 12V). I am considering a
PIC12C508 with 2 of the I/O pins providing an anti-phase drive (at say
100Khz) to a pair of mosfets. The mosfets are arranged to push-pull a center
tapped ferrite transformer with the center tap connected to +12V. The
secondary of the transformer will be full wave rectified and smoothed to
provide a 280VDC supply. Another output  of the 12C508 will drive a
transistor switch alternately to the 280V rail and then to 0V rail  at the
required 450Hz. This 280V square wave will be fed to the panel via a
coupling capacitor.

My problem is that I don't know where to start with selection / design of
the transformer. Can I design it myself or am I likely to find an off the
shelf item to do the job? Anyone got any leads on ferrite transformer
design?

Thanks in advance,

Gerry Cox.
Dorset U.K.

1998\11\27@151012 by Russell McMahon

picon face
What you describe is eminently doable but its not the normal way to
do it. If you are doing a one off you are probably better to use an
existing design or to buy an existing module. If you are building
heaps of them then there may be a reason to do it this way. Usually a
dedicated switching regulator IC will cause you less pain.

Standard prewound transformers for this class of application are
available from major inductor makers.
Winding your own is entirely achievable but the high voltage means
care is needed. High frequency inductor design can be a black art -
if this is a one off you probably want a pre-made coil.

Linear Technology Ltd produce(d?) an utterly superb set of
application notes for their products which may well be on the web.
These are probably the best application notes wrt subject matter that
I have ever seen. They discuss analog applications in terms
understandable to all but also get into the arcane technicalities of
real life. Their App Note AN25 is named "Switching regulators for
Poets" - raw beginners and experienced engineers can learn from it.

An Application Note that exceeds your spec (0-500v variable @ 200ma)
but looks very similar to what you describe (No PIC though :-)) is
given in LT's App Note AN35 page 1-13 figures 25-30. The warnings
about danger to your health should be noted. This design is much more
powerful than your requirement but is directly applicable. They use a
(prewound?) "TRIAD TY-94" main transformer. I dunno who TRIAD are but
no doubt a search using TRIAD & INDUCTOR would turn them up. There
are many others who do this sort of thing too. eg
   Pulse Engineering Inc http://www.pulseeng.com/
           CD and printed catalog available on web!
           (LT seem keen on their products judging by their use in
app notes),
       Avnet (who are probably active in your country) sell Pulse
products
   Dale,
   Neosid,
   Sub-tronics

and many more.

Disclaimer: I don't work for have any financial interest in any of
the above companies .



regards

               Russell McMahon


From: Gerry Cox <.....gcoxKILLspamspam.....DEK.COM>

>I want to design a low cost Electroluminescent panel drive (Output
is 280
>VAC @ 450Hz and 6Watts. Input power available is at 12V). I am
considering a
>PIC12C508 with 2 of the I/O pins providing an anti-phase drive (at
say
>100Khz) to a pair of mosfets. The mosfets are arranged to push-pull
a center
>tapped ferrite transformer with the center tap connected to +12V.
The
>secondary of the transformer will be full wave rectified and
smoothed to
>provide a 280VDC supply. Another output  of the 12C508 will drive a
>transistor switch alternately to the 280V rail and then to 0V rail
at the
>required 450Hz. This 280V square wave will be fed to the panel via a
>coupling capacitor.
>
>My problem is that I don't know where to start with selection /
design of
>the transformer. Can I design it myself or am I likely to find an
off the
>shelf item to do the job? Anyone got any leads on ferrite
transformer
>design?

1998\11\27@151020 by wwl

picon face
On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:57:52 -0000, you wrote:

>I want to design a low cost Electroluminescent panel drive (Output is 280
>VAC @ 450Hz and 6Watts. Input power available is at 12V). I am considering a
>PIC12C508 with 2 of the I/O pins providing an anti-phase drive (at say
>100Khz) to a pair of mosfets. The mosfets are arranged to push-pull a center
>tapped ferrite transformer with the center tap connected to +12V. The
>secondary of the transformer will be full wave rectified and smoothed to
>provide a 280VDC supply. Another output  of the 12C508 will drive a
>transistor switch alternately to the 280V rail and then to 0V rail  at the
>required 450Hz. This 280V square wave will be fed to the panel via a
>coupling capacitor.
Bear in mind that the panel will probably be a mostly capacitive load,
so you may need a fairly large output cap. Alternatively, an h-bridge
may be a better solution

If low cost is important (rather than efficiency or size) , have you
looked at using sine(ish)wave drive into an off-the-shelf mains
transformer run backwards? You could probably drive the primary with a
cheap  audio power amplifier chip.

If you go the high-frequency route, a flyback type supply would be
simpler than push-pull - maxim, LT etc. have plenty of devices, some
of which can drive a transformer easily. This would require only one
switching device and HV rectifier. 100KHz is probably a bit high
unless you need to keep the size of the transformer down.
I can't remember off-hand, but you may also be able to use one of the
NS simple switcher devices.

A PIC may be slight overkill unless it;s used for other things - a
CMOS 4060 would probably do the trick (and runs off 12V)!

1998\11\27@183950 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
Note that there are chips designed just for driving EL displays.  Sipex is
one manufacturer.  These apparently use dI/dt type drivers, along with the
minimal current requiresmenst of EL displays, and achieve high volatges with
a simple (external) inductor, and a couple of external resistors for timing.

BillW

'EL Panel power controller'
1998\11\27@212251 by Donald L Burdette

picon face
Gerry Cox wrote:

I want to design a low cost Electroluminescent panel drive...

Gerry -
Since you want this to be low cost, you are in for quite a trip if you
want to design the transformer yourself.  It can be done, but it will
take you a while to learn how to do it, and you're likely to go through a
couple of iterations before you get it right.  Catalogs from suppliers
listed below are helpful.  If you're in a hurry, your best bet is to
write up the specs and contact several manufacturers, request samples and
say you're hoping to build them in 10K and up quantities.  If you want
them cheap, this had better be true.  I have not heard of anyone
supplying off-the-shelf ferrite power transformers (if you have or do,
please let me know).  On the other hand, at 450 Hz. you may be able to
use an iron core.  Aircraft commonly use 400 Hz, and the appropriate unit
may be available, but it's likely to cost $$$.

For prototyping, the case may be very different.  Building an overkill
transformer of this type is relatively easy.  Learn to make very crude
calculations and use about double the ferrite and copper, and it should
work pretty well.  I've even used a 7.5 VA  60 Hz filament transformer to
do pretty much what you are doing, but running as much as 15 VA at
800-1000 Hz. (yes, it gets hot, but not too bad for the lab!)

I'm also very interested in your application, as I have a similar
prototype under evaluation by our customer now, only it has a sine wave
output and variable voltage/frequency, and it's somewhat load-dependent,
as yours probably is not.

E-mail me privately and I may be able to get you the name of a winder in
the U.K. when I go to work on Monday.

Ferrite suppliers I like are:

Magnetics
900 E. Butler Rd.
P.O. Box 391
Butler, PA 16003
USA

Fair-Rite
(I can look up their info on Monday if you want)

'Fw: Electroluminescent panel power controller.'
1998\11\28@124614 by wwl

picon face
On Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:39:24 PST, you wrote:

>Note that there are chips designed just for driving EL displays.  Sipex is
>one manufacturer.  These apparently use dI/dt type drivers, along with the
>minimal current requiresmenst of EL displays, and achieve high volatges with
>a simple (external) inductor, and a couple of external resistors for timing.
>
>BillW
All the ones I've seen are for relatively small panels - this one
sounds like a pretty big beastie

1998\11\28@153958 by Eric Smith

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face
William Chops Westfield <EraseMEbillwspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTCISCO.COM> wrote:
> Note that there are chips designed just for driving EL displays.  Sipex is
> one manufacturer.  These apparently use dI/dt type drivers, along with the
> minimal current requiresmenst of EL displays, and achieve high volatges with
> a simple (external) inductor, and a couple of external resistors for timing.

Could one of these be (ab)used into driving the anodes of a small number
of Nixie tubes?

1998\11\28@155452 by Reginald Neale

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face
EL panels use AC voltage. Nixies use DC and - all else being equal - more watts.

>William Chops Westfield <billwspamspam_OUTCISCO.COM> wrote:
>> Note that there are chips designed just for driving EL displays.  Sipex is
>> one manufacturer.  These apparently use dI/dt type drivers, along with the
>> minimal current requiresmenst of EL displays, and achieve high volatges with
>> a simple (external) inductor, and a couple of external resistors for timing.
>
>Could one of these be (ab)used into driving the anodes of a small number
>of Nixie tubes?

1998\11\30@072600 by Gerry Cox

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face
Thanks Bill,

I will look at Sipex. I have also found the Supertex web site which has some
excellent info.

Best Regards,
Gerry.

{Original Message removed}


'wanted: custom LCD front panel design for PC'
1999\01\27@033136 by Brian Murray
picon face
Hi PIC people,

We are designing a custom product involving a rack-mount industrial PC.
We would like to mount a 2x16 character VFD, such as :

       http://www.noritake-elec.com/uversion.htm

in a 5.25" drive bay, much like :

       http://www.matrix-orbital.com/pcb-intro.htm

but we also need 4 pushbuttons beside the display for menu navigation
purposes, and the whole thing strapped to the PC via the serial port.
It's the perfect thing for a PIC chip.

So, are there any designers out there (preferably based in Australia,
but open to other options) who can design/construct a PCB and machined
front panel and provide us with completed, tested units? We're looking
at 10 units initially, hopefully getting up to 50 throughout the year.

Any information/advice would be appreciated.

Regards,
Brian Murray
Director of R & D
Proximity Pty Ltd

--
-----------------------------------
Brian Murray      Proximity Pty Ltd
http://www.proximity.com.au/~brian/
-----------------------------------

'Custom LCD panel'
1999\01\28@232859 by Donald L Burdette

picon face
You wrote:

>...snip...
>So, are there any designers out there (preferably based in Australia,
>but open to other options) who can design/construct a PCB and machined
>front panel and provide us with completed, tested units? We're looking
>at 10 units initially, hopefully getting up to 50 throughout the year.
>
>Any information/advice would be appreciated.

Brian -

My company does products like this all the time.  We do it both for our
own products which are sold worldwide, and as subcontract jobs.  We are
in the US, but we work with a distributor down under, so I'm certain that
wouldn't be a problem.  I'll take your message to work tomorrow and have
someone contact you about arranging to make a quote.

Don Burdette
Senior Engineer
TEK Industries, Inc.
@spam@dlburdetteKILLspamspamjuno.com (personal)
KILLspamengineeringKILLspamspamTEKind.com (business)


'PICs, I2C and Front panels.'
1999\02\09@112802 by keithh
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face
> I want to have a central micro running as a "supervisor"
> and a second micro implementing a remote keypad and LCD display.

> I was looking towards I2C, but because of the remote micro's
> limited use, the low-end PICs do not implement I2C in hardware
> (so a software solution would be necessary).
> Does anyone have experience with this type of application?

Yes, our flagship amplifier the Arcam Alpha 10 has a Holtek
on the main board, allowing it to run as a simple power amp.
If connected to a pre-amp board and a front panel containing
the PIC16C65 I programmed, the PIC takes over the show and
runs the application (being an integrated amp).

They talk via I2C, in multimaster mode.

> Could you give me some advice/battle scars?
> What is the "best" way to interface the two?

Forget software slavery. It may be possible, but
doing it with the SSP hardware is work enough!

The simplest way is to have one being the master
and one being an I2C slave. One of them has to be
the slave, and that one should have I2C hardware.

Which is the simpler micro?
What is the non-display micro doing?

I think the wiser choice may be to make the display
micro the slave, with an attention request signal
to say "Something's changed, come check it out".

My PIC normally runs the show, but expansion boards
(e.g. home cinema) can enslave it so that it acts
as a dumb terminal. It can then either transmit
commands describing user events, or use an
attention request line as described above.

I've wired my front panel to my PC printer port
and had the PC hosting an application:
press buttons or twiddle the knob, the PIC
alerts the PC which reads it, then the PC sends I2C
messages to the PIC which put data into the
volume control chips, multiplexers, LEDs and
flourescent display.

The latter is compatible with the HD44780 chip
used in LCDs.

Keith


'[OT] Alphanumeric LED display panels'
1999\03\04@092053 by Howard McGinnis
flavicon
face
Any one know of some companies that make a 4 to 6 character alphanumeric
display panel of the LED variety, serial interface with 1 to 2" characters?

Howard
Howard McGinnis
RemoveMEhmcginniTakeThisOuTspamdigital.net
Electronic Visions, Inc.
1650 Barrett Drive
Rockledge FL 32955
(407) 632-7530
http://www.e-visions.com
spamBeGonemcginnisspamBeGonespame-visions.com

1999\03\04@170636 by erik

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face
I had just seen something like that in a "TechAmerica" flyer. I can't
seem to find it now.  http://www.techamerica.com
Adaptive Micro Systems makes "LED signs". Maybe a little bigger that
what your looking for but... http://www.ams-i.com



Howard McGinnis wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\05@005302 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Only if you want to spend about $300 each. Otherwise you'll have to roll
your own. How about getting some fixer-upper displays(with drivers) from
All Electronics? I believe they had 12 digit alpha displays for about $4.50
each, used, with "irregularities". IIRC the web address is:
http://www.allcorp.com and they are in the Los Angeles pool somewhere(San
Fernando valley, maybe Van Nuys?).

Cheers,
Bob

{Quote hidden}

http://www.bobblick.com/

'[OT]Solar Panels?'
1999\03\05@154409 by PJH

flavicon
face
Hi,
Can anyone point me to a website
where I can bone up on the ins &
outs of solar panels?

I have to operate a PIC-controlled
remote camera system and the
Pb-acid batteries get sucked dry
pretty quick. It operates at night
so trickle\periodic charge by day
looks good. I've never fiddled with
solar cells before but I'd guess
the main gotcha would be if the
batteries discharged thru the solar
panel - and fried it.

The panel I'll use is fairly
expensive so I'm just looking for
a  page with some practical tips on
hooking up solar panels, what not
to do, how to screw up big-time etc
etc.

Regards & thnax - PJH.

1999\03\05@164005 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
PJH wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Can anyone point me to a website
> where I can bone up on the ins &
> outs of solar panels?
> <snipped>
> looks good. I've never fiddled with
> solar cells before but I'd guess
> the main gotcha would be if the
> batteries discharged thru the solar
> panel - and fried it.
> <snipped>
>
> Regards & thnax - PJH.

 I know you want a diode in series with the stack of solar cells (It's
not uncommon for that diode to already be in the manufactured solar
array.)  I'm interested in learning more here, want a PC110 array <G>

 Also if you put multiple arrays in parallel you do want a diode in
series with each array (so if one array's shaded, it doesn't
back-charge) etc.  I suggest Schottky's rated at the highest peak
current the array could possibly generate <G>

 Lessee, some places I pointed my brother at were:

 Photon Tech's Links Page
 http://members.aol.com/photontek/photon/weblist0.html

 Personal Solar
 http://www.yessolar.com/

 All I have time to snag just now <G>

 Mark

1999\03\05@170742 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
PJH wrote:
{Quote hidden}

We are testing a small solar cell from PowerLine Solar
Products, 32 S.Ewing Ste #331, Helena MT, 59601, they
have a website(???) the small cell we have is only 2" by
2¹" and it recharges a NiCad pack 4xAA in bright sun
with 5.4V @ 23mA... wow, yes, it is nice. They deserve
this free adv. There is this list of companies:
http://www.cleanenergy.de/name_s.html
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:   http:/http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\05@193011 by Nick Taylor

picon face
PwerLine Solar Products was bought by Advanced Power
Technologies a few weeks ago.  Their new URL is:
  http://powerexperts.com/solar.htm
Enjoy,
- - - Nick - - -

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
<snip>
> We are testing a small solar cell from PowerLine Solar
> Products, 32 S.Ewing Ste #331, Helena MT, 59601, they
> have a website(???) the small cell we have is only 2" by
> 2¹" and it recharges a NiCad pack 4xAA in bright sun
> with 5.4V @ 23mA

1999\03\05@204145 by PJH

flavicon
face
Mark Willis wrote:

> PJH wrote: Hi, Can anyone point me to a website where I can bone up on
> the ins & outs of solar panels?
>
>     All I have time to snag just now <G>

You mean, shed some light on? <G>pjh

1999\03\05@204400 by WIL REEDER

flavicon
face
Hi PJH
I spend about half my time living in a solar powered house (wind too). The
general rules are electrically: a Shottkey diode in the line to the battery
and you will likely need three times the solar panel in the winter than
summer, so, some form of regulation may be required. Mechanically: Face the
cells south (true not magnetic --try the shadow at noon trick) or if the
sun is obstructed face it at the center of the open area. Set the cells at
an angle equal to your latitude.
A simple regulation method could be a 6.3v zener at the panels, rated to
handle the full output, then on to the blocking diode and battery (4.8 v
nicad)
Hope this is some help, You get extra points for going with renewable
energy!!!


Wil Reeder
RemoveMEteachtechEraseMEspamEraseMEbc.sympatico.ca
Vancouver,Canada 0x34
solar,wind,tide, TEG  renewable energy

----------
| From: PJH <RemoveMEelekspam_OUTspamKILLspamNETSTRA.COM.AU>
| To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
| Subject: [OT]Solar Panels?
| Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 12:40 PM
|
| Hi,
| Can anyone point me to a website
| where I can bone up on the ins &
| outs of solar panels?
|
| I have to operate a PIC-controlled
| remote camera system and the
| Pb-acid batteries get sucked dry
| pretty quick. It operates at night
| so trickle\periodic charge by day
| looks good. I've never fiddled with
| solar cells before but I'd guess
| the main gotcha would be if the
| batteries discharged thru the solar
| panel - and fried it.
|
| The panel I'll use is fairly
| expensive so I'm just looking for
| a  page with some practical tips on
| hooking up solar panels, what not
| to do, how to screw up big-time etc
| etc.
|
| Regards & thnax - PJH.

1999\03\05@205022 by Lynx {Glenn Jones}

flavicon
face
> summer, so, some form of regulation may be required. Mechanically: Face the
> cells south (true not magnetic --try the shadow at noon trick) or if the


Unless, of course you live in the souther hemisphere :)

1999\03\06@002546 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
PJH wrote:
>
> Mark Willis wrote:
>
> > PJH wrote: Hi, Can anyone point me to a website where I can bone up on
> > the ins & outs of solar panels?
> >
> >     All I have time to snag just now <G>
>
> You mean, shed some light on? <G>pjh

 Boo, Hiss.  <G>  I thought I was the official harasser of the PICList,
now?

 Mark

1999\03\06@003211 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Lynx {Glenn Jones} wrote:
>
> > summer, so, some form of regulation may be required. Mechanically: Face the
> > cells south (true not magnetic --try the shadow at noon trick) or if the
>
> Unless, of course you live in the souther hemisphere :)

 Not at all;  You just need to set them at a NEGATIVE angle <G>

 (I remember one application one person was complaining about showing
the world map "upside down" - turns out the developer chose to "flip"
the world view when you chose a home city in the southern hemisphere, so
South was "up" - freaked this user out <G> - I suggested he pick a "home
base" city in the same Time Zone, but north of the equator.  I've seen
THAT one more than once, sorta a neat trick, easy enough to do from a
coding point of view, too!)

 Mark

1999\03\06@023324 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Mark Willis wrote:
> Not at all;  You just need to set them at a NEGATIVE angle <G>
>(I remember one application one person was complaining about showing
> the world map "upside down" - turns out the developer chose to "flip"
> the world view when you chose a home city in the southern hemisphere, so
> South was "up" - freaked this user out <G> - I suggested he pick a "home
> base" city in the same Time Zone, but north of the equator.  I've seen
> THAT one more than once, sorta a neat trick, easy enough to do from a
> coding point of view, too!)
>
>   Mark

whaaat? :)
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:   http:/http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\06@144142 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Mark Willis wrote:
<snip>
>   Us northern hemisphere denizens don't control the southern hemisphere,
> ya know, they got all these different ideas of which way "Right side up"
> is, when Summer and Winter are, and even have managed to change which
> way water swirls as it goes down the drain, for all locations south of
> the equator.  Pretty powerful, huh?
>   I figure it's a massive SouthHemispherian conspiracy, but cannot offer
> any proof, as the cat ate it <G>  (He's easy to bribe, dangit!  And he
> gets bored...)  They're out there, I just know it <VBG>  (The cats, or
> the southern hemispherians?  Yes.)
>
>   Mark (Should I yell at myself for being off topic, yet?)

Well, I was born in Brazil, southest state, almost the end of South
America,
right above Uruguay country, we use to see the world map south-down,
north-up,
the water swirls contrary to the north hemisphere, and also the radio
waves,
yes, helicoidal antennas are build contrary to the ones used in north
side of
the globe.

There are few scientists down there trying to convince us that the globe
map
must be plotted from inside out, since it is easy to see the
coordinates.
Imagine yourself in the physical middle of the planet ball, so it would
be
easy to pinpoint any place in the globe using lat/long/alt. In real this
is
not a bad idea, since it is easy to create the concept of real distance
between points.  If you first connect the origin and destination by a
straight
internal line, then stretch it to the surface via an arch, you get it.

Lots of people really think that it is easy to go from New York to Japan
in
a straight horizontal line to the west, via San Francisco for example,
when
going straight via Alaska is shorter.  But it is very easy to see that
if
you imagine yourself inside the globe.

So, going back to the subject, anybody out there already developed any
PIC interface to a GPS unit powered by a Solar Panel?
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:   http:/http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\06@164556 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 14:39 03/06/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>There are few scientists down there trying to convince us that the globe
>map
>must be plotted from inside out, since it is easy to see the
>coordinates.

i guess the question is not whether to plot it inside out or from the
outside, it is how to project a sphere's surface on a flat surface. since
this can't be done without =some= distortion, the question is =what= to
distort... in doubt, use a globe. usually from the outside :)

ge

1999\03\07@140723 by goflo

flavicon
face
Per battery current measurement, hall-effect current sensors
are in use on some late-model autos.
Likewise interested in an elaboration of "power trackers".

Regards, Jack

Mike Keitz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\07@151848 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Mike Keitz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

As far as I understand Ohm's law, the maximum current will be
proportional to the maximum voltage, so... if the batteries
are at 96V, any voltage above that will work. The output power
is a fixed relation to the input power less the losses in the
conversion, so, if the cells generate 0.45Vx110A (50Watts),
take off the conversion losses, let say 15% in the best deal,
the power output will be 42.5W.  It will take a cell size of
aprox 1660 square inches, or a board of 41x41 inches.

It doesn't matter much what the voltage is being generated at
the bust conversion, it needs at least to be higher than the
batteries voltage. The batteries internal impedance would be
so low that this is what will rules about the battery charge
current. Also the solar cells high impedance will drop its
output voltage with the increase of the drained current.

So, imagine the batteries are at 85V, your buster step-up is
trying to generate something around 100V, but its output
impedance is higher than the batteries impedance, so the
current output will be a factor of the power transferred
divided by the battery voltage. 42.5(W)/85(V) = 0.5 A.

I never saw a step-up conversion with a productivity better
than 85-87%... even the small ones produced by Maxim or Linear
Tech, and charge capacitive pumps are not better, so I think
that losing 15% in solar power is a high price.

Solar cells are very easy to cut, plastic, flexible or the
liquid ones right now, so build an array with 300 cells
in series is not a big problem... well, I don't know the
problems you may have to do that, but it would give you at
least 15% more power... aprox 588mA, not talking about the
most economic wiring AWG as well the cost of the buster,
or then 15% less cell overall sizes, what correspond to
a reduction of almost 16x16 inches in the cell area.
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:   http:/http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\07@153335 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
>I never saw a step-up conversion with a productivity better
>than 85-87%... even the small ones produced by Maxim or Linear
>Tech, and charge capacitive pumps are not better, so I think
>that losing 15% in solar power is a high price.


Charge pumps (capacitors) are the WORST in efficiency. Think about
I^2R losses, and what happens when you connect a discharged cap to a
supply...

Boost converters can get into the high 90s especially if the working
voltages are respectable.

Were I charging lead acid batteries from a solar array, I would set
the array for the highest voltage that is less than the battery
discharged voltage, then use a current mode boost circuit set to a
limit current at some reasonable rate WRT the battery size, maybe C/5
or some such, and set the voltage to about 2.3 or 2.4 V/Cell.   CS384X
series make great controllers for this sort of thing.

1999\03\07@160108 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:30:12 +1100 PJH <elekSTOPspamspamspam_OUTNETSTRA.COM.AU> writes:
>Hey, that doesn't sound like a bad idea. Not bad at all. There's a a
>chip from
>Motorola, the MC34063,  sometimes goes by the id uA78S40. It's a
>"Switching
>Regulator Controller" for DC:DC step up\step down supplies that'd be
>ideal in the
>application.You can boost it's o/p current easily and use a pic to
>oversee the whole
>thing, switching between batteries, turning off the system for a
>periodic charge up
>etc.(Just thinking of my remote camera app, not the sun-car.)
>PJH

       I've used the 78S40 before, but I don't see why to use it here.  Why not
just have the PIC generate the appropriate PWM and drive the FET directly
(or through a driver if we need a higher gate voltage)?  As I've stated
before, the ideal design has zero parts!

Harold
>

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1999\03\07@160114 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:32:36 -0500 Mike Keitz <spamBeGonemkeitzSTOPspamspamEraseMEJUNO.COM> writes:
>
>Exactly how does it work? Do you just adjust the PWM slightly and see
>if  the battery current increases or decreases, or is measurement of the

>solar panel voltage involved too?  Can you just regulate the panel
>voltage to some level and get maximum power out, or does the optimum
>panel voltage vary widely under different light levels?  Measuring the
>battery current seems like the best way since that's really what
>you're after, but it may be hard to do without losing some power in a
>resistor.
>I've heard of these power trackers, but never a description of
>exactly
>what method they use to operate at the maximum power point.
>

       You've got it!  The idea is just to adjust the PWM and see if the
battery current goes up or down.  the solar panel voltage does not play a
part in it.  We could measure the panel voltage and current, then adjust
PWM for the maximum of the product, but measuring the output current
seems much simpler.
       I see the Thevenin equivalent of a solar panel as a variable voltage
source and a variable source resistance, both of which vary with the
amount of light falling on the panel.  The converter adjusts its load on
the panel to match the source resistance, giving us the most output
power.  Instead of looking at source resistance, load resistance, or
whatever, we just adjust for what we want:  maximum output power.  Since
the output power always increases with increasing current into the
batteries, it's pretty simple to measure.  Of course measuring the solar
panel current, we'd find a maximum current when we got zero output power
(driving a short), or maximum voltage when we got zero output power
(driving an open).
       Sensing the output current efficiently might be a bit of a problem.  We
don't really need to know the absolute current, just whether it's going
up or down.  So, we could measure the voltage across something where we
are already getting a voltage drop, such as the output diode in the step
up converter.  Another idea might be use of a Hall effect sensor, or
maybe a SenseFET.  So far I've just told the students "Here are some
ideas to play with."  I haven't had to get any of it to work!
       They did bring me a circuit someone had developed with LOTS OF PARTS!
It sampled the input voltage and current, multiplied the two (in analog
circuitry) and adjusted a standard switching regulator chip.


Harold
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'[OT]Solar Panels? Charge sealed batteries.'
1999\03\08@003653 by kypros.vassiliou

flavicon
D. Schouten wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Anybody ever messed around with a solar powered battery charger?
> I want to build a PIC controlled solar battery charger for charging
> big sealed batteries. Differently than just using some kind of shut
> off at a certain battery voltage, my plan was to incorporate some
> kind of a Maximum Power Point Tracker (MPPT) to get the max out of
> the solar panel array I have (approx. 1kW max). The MPPT controls
> a step down converter which is followed by a stepup converter for
> the final regulation of the battery charging voltage.
> A PIC could easily do the MPPT part in this app.
>
> Daniel...

Hi Daniel,
For a solar battery charger you can visit
http://www.eklektix.com/solar/
You can also find general info on solar power at
http://www.homepower.com/
it is the homepage of the homepower magazine, a nice one with lot of
info on solar and wind power. You can also download the whole magazine
since it is available on the net.
Regards
Kypros

'[OT]Solar Panels? - Why PWM Works'
1999\03\08@021015 by Eric Borcherding

picon face
Wagner,

A solar panel power delivery can be likened to a Low pass Bode plot.
It you unload the cells they tend to rise in voltage - it is a natural
physical
response from being srtuck by light.   So, at this point the Array voltage
rises
and there is an effective higher voltage output.  As you load this with a
circuit
the draws power the array voltages drops again.   But if you pulse load this
then
the average voltage delivered is some higher.   The regulation unit must look
for
the maximum product of V panel to I delivered to battery / load.  It now is a
simple
proportional drive to track a hi - right on - low point that allows the
maximum
power to be tracked and delivered.   There is a need to understand that PV
cells
are not linear they a bowed - the V*I max in the bow can be tracked.   I have
PVs on my roof and collect 1/3 of all my electrical needs.   If I can help
folks
witht his write...  Trace Engineering makes some nice $value products...

Eric Borcherding

'[OT]Solar Panels? Charge sealed batteries.'
1999\03\08@064659 by Roy Kasmir

picon face
I've messed with them. I build them for Cathodic Protection Units.
Have about 200 to 250 units out in the field. For reliably I had to
keep the charging circuit simple. Just a switch mode shunt regulator.
How big are the batteries you are talking about?

Roy


---"D. Schouten" <KILLspamdanielsspamBeGonespamXS4ALL.NL> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

'[OT]Solar Panels? - Why PWM Works'
1999\03\08@104611 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Hi Eric, thanks for the explanation.
I am just learning about solar cells, and it looks like you
have much more experience. So I need to ask you:

What you are saying, is that the *delivery power* of a solar
cell changes with the current drained, is that right?
Nothing to do with internal impedance, is that correct?
Note that *power* means voltage x current, so according to
what you are saying, suppose:

1) A pack of cells can supply 100V with open output.
2) You connect a load and the current goes to 10mA, while
  the voltage drops to 10V. The power delivered is 100mW.
3) If you increase the load to drain only 5mA, the voltage
  will be higher than 20V (more than 100mW supplied).

It is natural that *any* voltage cell increase the voltage
at the output connections when load is removed since the
voltage drop at the internal impedance is reduced.
If you connect a capacitor in parallel with any battery
with high internal impedance, it will delivery a higher
peak of power at the initial connection since the cap
has an impedance lower than the battery.
But according to what you are saying, this is not what
happens to a solar cell, and that there is an "optimum"
point in the power curve (current versus voltage) where
it is higher. Is that right?

> But if you pulse load this then the average voltage
> delivered is some higher.

It works the same way if you apply a capacitor in parallel
to any power cell, reducing the internal impedance. In
real, a solar cell may act somehow as a capacitor, since
the large surface area.

In the analogy to the accelerating car it doesn't work;
A car with the traction tires lifted in the air, then
accelerating at high rpm, creating mechanical inertia,
and then releasing the car into the track, it will jump
a little bit because the mass inertia of the rotating
mechanics, but it has no torque, just inertia, and the
acceleration process will reduce the rpm according to
the friction so it needs to create the torque and at
the end of the track it consumed more fuel/distance/time
than if not doing that. The fuel consumed to create the
initial inertia (in the air) has a terrible low
productivity.  In a videogame for the Nintendo64 has a
SuperMario race game where this effect allows you to
speed up more than your competitors, jumping the car
continuously along the race, this is not true in the
real world. If yes, a simple reduction in the gear box
would have the same effect.  I have a friend that once
told me that a hammer-drill can penetrate the concrete
not because the hammering effect (that breaks the
crystallized concrete surface), but because when the
hammer retracts it gains more speed... can you imagine?

--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:   http:/http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm


Eric Borcherding wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[OT] Alphanumeric LED display panels'
1999\03\08@123319 by John Payson

flavicon
face
|I had just seen something like that in a "TechAmerica" flyer. I can't
|seem to find it now.  http://www.techamerica.com
|Adaptive Micro Systems makes "LED signs". Maybe a little bigger that
|what your looking for but... http://www.ams-i.com

Most of the commercial displays will be a bit pricey, but the AMS
Beta Brite displays are under $150 at places like Sam's Club.  They
offer 80x7 pixels in 9 colors and offer a serial port.  I can give
you some info about programming if needed.

'[OT]Solar Panels? Charge sealed batteries.'
1999\03\08@131031 by D. Schouten

picon face
>I've messed with them. I build them for Cathodic Protection Units.
>Have about 200 to 250 units out in the field. For reliably I had to
>keep the charging circuit simple. Just a switch mode shunt regulator.

Hmm, interesting. I was thinking to just use a simple non isolated
Buck converter controlled by a PIC. This way I can simply add a
charging algorithm and other stuff too. MPPT is accomplished
by simply adjusting duty cycle for maximum charging current. This
way the input PV module operates at his Maximum Power Point.

>How big are the batteries you are talking about?

It's a 24V 400AmpHour battery system.


Daniel...

{Quote hidden}

'[OT]Solar Panels? - Why PWM Works'
1999\03\08@140435 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Eric Borcherding wrote:
> There is a need to understand that PV cells are not linear
> they a bowed - the V*I max in the bow can be tracked.

Where can we find a solar cell data sheet, with informations
like that?

Remember that the best power transfer happens when the
external (load) impedance is equal to the internal (cell)
impedance, so at that point, the voltage-drop at the
internal (cell) impedance is the lowest possible with
the maximum possible output current. Lots of folks doesn't
understand that, this is culture, so here we goes:

10Volts-----INT.IMPEDANCE(10 Ohms)----x---LOAD(15 Ohms)
Circuit current V/R: 10 / 25 = 0.4 A
Power transfered to load RI^2: 15 x 0.4 x 0.4 = 2.4 W

10Volts-----INT.IMPEDANCE(10 Ohms)----x---LOAD(5 Ohms)
Circuit current V/R: 10 / 15 = 0.66 A
Power transfered to load RI^2: 5 x 0.66 x 0.66 = 2.178 W

10Volts-----INT.IMPEDANCE(10 Ohms)----x---LOAD(10 Ohms)
Circuit current V/R: 10 / 20 = 0.5 A
Power transfered to load RI^2: 10 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 2.5 W

As you can see, when get the max transfered power when
both impedances are equal. This is applied to sound,
video, RF, power, pressure, including mechanics.
Look what happens when the equalization changes a bit:

10Volts-----INT.IMPEDANCE(10 Ohms)----x---LOAD(11 Ohms)
Circuit current V/R: 10 / 21 = 0.476 A
Power transfered to load RI^2: 11 x 0.476 x 0.476 = 2.49 W

10Volts-----INT.IMPEDANCE(10 Ohms)----x---LOAD(9 Ohms)
Circuit current V/R: 10 / 19 = 0.526 A
Power transfered to load RI^2: 9 x 0.526 x 0.526 = 2.49 W

The general formula is:

PowerLoad =   Voltage x LoadImpedance
           --------------------------
           (SourceImped + LoadImped)^2
or
PowerLoad =    Voltage
           -------------------------
           (SI^2 / LI) + 2xSI + LI

I wonder if the bowed curved you said is not related to
optimum power transfer when both impedances are equal,
that a pwm current can do, caused by the current slack
raising time.

Wagner

1999\03\08@173305 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi,

At 10:45 AM 3/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>If you connect a capacitor in parallel with any battery
>with high internal impedance, it will delivery a higher
>peak of power at the initial connection since the cap
>has an impedance lower than the battery.

Won't you actually achieve max. power transfer to the cap when the product
of the voltage across it and the current thru it is maximum? This won't
occur when you first hook it up because the voltage across the cap is
initially zero,so the power transfered is initially zero.

Sean


|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
@spam@shb7@spam@spamspam_OUTcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\03\08@183951 by John Payson

flavicon
face
At 10:45 AM 3/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>If you connect a capacitor in parallel with any battery
>with high internal impedance, it will delivery a higher
>peak of power at the initial connection since the cap
>has an impedance lower than the battery.

|Won't you actually achieve max. power transfer to the cap when the product
|of the voltage across it and the current thru it is maximum? This won't
|occur when you first hook it up because the voltage across the cap is
|initially zero,so the power transfered is initially zero.

The initial transfer of energy to the cap will not be terribly
efficient, and if the cap is substantially discharged its repl-
enishment won't be terribly efficient either.

Suppose, however, that you have a device powered by a "9 volt"
battery which needs to drive a 100-ohm solenoid for 100ms with
at least 60mA.  If you have a 4,700uF cap in parallel with the
battery it will be able to supply that demand while dropping
less than two volts even if the battery is not in good shape and
has an internal resistance of 100 ohms (in which case connecting
a 100ohm load without the cap would cause the voltage to drop by
half, failing to meet the 60mA requirement).

Note that recharging the cap after each pulse will not be 100%
efficient (since the cap's starting voltage will be around two
volts less than the battery voltage) but it will be much more
efficient than would be the battery's efforts at driving the
solenoid directly.

1999\03\08@191352 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi John,

At 05:40 PM 3/8/99 -0600, you wrote:
[SNIP]
>|Won't you actually achieve max. power transfer to the cap when the product
>|of the voltage across it and the current thru it is maximum? This won't
>|occur when you first hook it up because the voltage across the cap is
>|initially zero,so the power transfered is initially zero.
>
[SNIP]
>Suppose, however, that you have a device powered by a "9 volt"
>battery which needs to drive a 100-ohm solenoid for 100ms with
>at least 60mA.  If you have a 4,700uF cap in parallel with the
>battery it will be able to supply that demand while dropping
>less than two volts even if the battery is not in good shape and
>has an internal resistance of 100 ohms (in which case connecting
>a 100ohm load without the cap would cause the voltage to drop by
>half, failing to meet the 60mA requirement).
>

I see,I misunderstood the original post,then,I should have followed the
thread more closely. I thought that the original post was talking about
simply using a battery to charge a cap,nothing else,and was saying that the
power delivered to the cap was greatest when the cap was discharged
completely.

Thanks,

Sean

|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
spamBeGoneshb7spamKILLspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\03\08@211244 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Yes, the main function of a low FSR cap in parallel with a
high impedance power source is to be a kind of intermediate
low impedance element, to supply high peak current demand
when it is necessary.  The main reason here is to allow a
high current =with= high voltage for a brief moment, what
is very difficult to acquire from a solar cell, for example.
Wagner.

Sean Breheny wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:   http:/http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\09@003411 by Russell McMahon

picon face
From: Wagner Lipnharski <TakeThisOuTwagnerl.....spamTakeThisOuTEARTHLINK.NET>


This is historically known as "the maximum power transfer theorum"

>Remember that the best power transfer happens when the
>external (load) impedance is equal to the internal (cell)
>impedance,

>As you can see, when get the max transfered power when
>both impedances are equal. This is applied to sound,
>video, RF, power, pressure, including mechanics.


But is never applied to mains sockets for appliances etc :-)
(for reasons which will be apparent when you think about it).



Russell McMahon

'[OT] Solar Panel / Battery hybrid power for palmto'
1999\03\09@022807 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
(Posted offline.)

 I'm building a solar array to charge a battery pack, and run a small
palmtop I have.

 Can I ask some good questions off-list of someone who's done this sort
of thing?  Please e-mail me if willing & able <G>

 Mark

1999\03\09@040253 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Mark, Maxim's Engineering Journal, vol 27, has an article on using
solar cells with 0.8 to 4.5V outputs to generate a 5V, 500ma supply.
I also ran across an excellent article about using solar arrarys
recently but I can't find it. I thought it was from Maxim or Linear but
it may have been in EDN. I have'nt searched those yet.

  - Tom

At 11:12 PM 3/8/99 -0800, Mark Willis wrote:
>(Posted offline.)
>
>  I'm building a solar array to charge a battery pack, and run a small
>palmtop I have.
>
>  Can I ask some good questions off-list of someone who's done this sort
>of thing?  Please e-mail me if willing & able <G>
>
>  Mark

1999\03\09@050556 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
I'm after 10V to 10.5V, 1.3A peak (800mA works, though, and the
palmtop has an internal battery.  Probably can get by on 400-500 mA most
of the time, give or take.)  I want a small Lead-Acid battery pack
probably (Want a package the size of a regular laptop or so, but 2/3 of
it'll be batteries, and the solar cells stow safely for carrying.)  I
want a lot <G>  Thanks, please keep looking!

Mark

Tom Handley wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[SOT]Gerber panelizing software'
1999\03\09@070241 by Richard Martin

picon face
I'm looking for some software to panelize Gerber output
of mixed small small boards onto a larger panel (for prototyping)
to take advantage of the larger board size pricing of (e.g. APC)
If all the small boards are in the same CAD package then of
coarse THAT's the way to do it. I'm interested in the other cases,
like joint build/buys within "amateur" groups or panelising output
from size limited CAD pks. (EagleLite). If it isn't easily available,
then I'll build it (sounds like a great Awk or Perl learning exercise!)
but should really stay [OT].

Dick

'[OT]Solar Panels? - Why PWM Works'
1999\03\09@080332 by Thomas McGahee

flavicon
face
Sean,
If you try to draw current from a battery with a high impedance,
the internal resistance of the battery will limit the maximum
current you can draw. If you place a capacitor in parallel with
the same battery, the battery will charge the capacitor up
to the full voltage within a certain time period determined
by the product R*C. The capacitor will initially charge
according to the standard charge curve. Assuming that the
capacitor has no leakage, the power system as a whole still
has the same total energy capacity it had before. However,
since the impedance of the capacitor can be MUCH lower than that of
the battery, it can supply high currents for short periods.
*After* being discharged, there will be a time delay before
the capacitor fully charges again. That is the tradeoff.

Every time you use a decoupling cap from an IC power pin to ground,
you are doing the same thing. This techniques is also useful
when driving relays: they have an initial need for a good stiff
voltage source *until they are closed* then, they only require
a certain minimum holding current. After releasing such a relay,
there is a certain minimum recharge time that must be observed
before you can re-activate the relay.

With relays that can tolerate this wait time between activations
you can actually add a resistor between the battery and the
capacitor that will power the relay. This greatly reduces the chance that
activating the relay will produce noise on the power bus.

Hope this helps.
Fr. Tom McGahee
----------
{Quote hidden}

'[OT] Solar Panel / Battery hybrid power for palmto'
1999\03\09@094933 by WIL REEDER

flavicon
face
Hi again Mark
There have been some adds in Nuts & Volts for flat pack lead acid gel
batteries. I will try to locate something and scan it for you. There was
also an article in EDN Feb 4/99 Design Feature- Solar Power. Sorry I have
recycled mine but perhaps some good soul would send you the article (Page
120 or so).
Home power Magazine has done some of these projects and may have some info
on their website http://www.homepower.com/hp/. HP may be a little too grass
roots for you.
Your panel will have to be a good size. A 6v panel will not usually put out
as high as 10-10.5v so a 12v panel may be the most cost effective, unless
maybe you want to mount up cells to make your own custom panel. You will
probably end up with better than 1 square foot for your panel and more if
you go with amorphous.

The batteries, I'm assuming gel, love to be equalized fairly often and
there is evidence that shows prolonged life with pulsed charging. There may
be a spot for a PIC in the battery management system. Sounds like a fun
project


Wil Reeder
spamBeGoneteachtech@spam@spamspam_OUTbc.sympatico.ca
Vancouver,Canada 0x34
solar,wind,tide, TEG  renewable energy

----------
| From: Mark Willis <TakeThisOuTmwillisspamspamNWLINK.COM>
| To: PICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
| Subject: Re: [OT] Solar Panel / Battery hybrid power for palmtop
| Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 2:04 AM
|
| I'm after 10V to 10.5V, 1.3A peak (800mA works, though, and the
| palmtop has an internal battery.  Probably can get by on 400-500 mA most
| of the time, give or take.)  I want a small Lead-Acid battery pack
| probably (Want a package the size of a regular laptop or so, but 2/3 of
snip

'[SOT]Gerber panelizing software'
1999\03\09@121613 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 03:59 03/09/99 -0800, Richard Martin wrote:
>I'm looking for some software to panelize Gerber output
>of mixed small small boards onto a larger panel (for prototyping)

there is a freeware gerber tool called "gc-prevue". a search on the web
should bring it up. it's a pretty nice tool for previewing gerber files
(always a good idea before you send it to your pcb shop!) and working with
them.

ge

'[OT] Solar Panel / Battery hybrid power for palmto'
1999\03\09@122445 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 06:51:35 -0800 WIL REEDER <RemoveMEteachtechEraseMEspamspam_OUTBC.SYMPATICO.CA>
writes:

> a 12v panel may be the most cost effective,
>unless
>maybe you want to mount up cells to make your own custom panel. You
>will
>probably end up with better than 1 square foot for your panel and more
>if
>you go with amorphous.

Always use a larger panel and battery than you think you need.  Panels
with an open-circuit voltage of about 17V are common and a good match for
charging a 12V lead-acid battery without a regulator.  In a small system
like this one, you're better off to buy more / larger panels than to try
and get a few percent more power using a regulator.

For any sort of high-performance application (and wanting this much power
from a portable system is high-performance), don't use amorphous panels.
They only output their specified power in full sunlight, and fall off
very rapidly with less light.  Crystalline ones will continue to produce
useful power on cloudy days, which in most areas happen quite frequently.
I'd go farther and say don't use amorphous panels, period, but for those
few who happen to live in a desert and can get the panels for almost
free, they may be practical.

>The batteries, I'm assuming gel, love to be equalized fairly often and
>there is evidence that shows prolonged life with pulsed charging.

The most important thing for battery life is to not overdischarge.  The
load should turn itself off when the battery voltage drops to 10.5V (for
a 12V nominal battery).  Second most important is to keep the battery
temperature in the "room temperature" range, hard to do when it is set
out in the sun.  Probably overcharging won't be much of a problem, when
it does happen it will act as an equalize.  If you use a battery type
that is commonly found as inexpensive surplus, it won't be too bad to
replace it every couple of years.  Don't expect a sealed lead-acid to
work more than 5 years even if you treat it perfectly.


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


'[OT] identifying a LCD Panel'
1999\04\08@072944 by Sebastián Dols
flavicon
face
Hello again PICsters. A friend has given to me an LCD panel with no info or
specs, and I am triying to identify it in order to make something usable
with it.

The only info I can see is, in different places:

SEIKO
REV 3
Japan
MI641

Is one row, and th ucontroller in the back is a 8M3- HD44780A00, with 14
pins and a C.A. connexion, so i think is backligthed..

absolute no info in a Inet search (altavista, etc.)

Somebody knows something about it?

1999\04\08@074953 by ns

flavicon
face
Try searching for "industry standard alphanumeric display controller". :)

You have stumbled on the standard character mode LCD display.  '44780' is
the Hitachi controller that is very common for character LCDs.  Also, the
14 pin interface is a good sign that it is at least a 44780 copy.

Seriously, search for 44780.  There is LOADs of info, pic code, an
application note on http://www.microchip.com etc. Needless to say, I never got
mine working... :(


On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, [iso-8859-1] Sebastián Dols wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\04\08@104137 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Take a look at:
http://www.ustr.net
click LCD button

1999\04\08@114907 by Paul Davis

flavicon
face
This is a 1x16 STN LCD module, probably with an LED backlight. It also
looks like
this is an obsolete part. Current part number appears to be L167100J000.
Take a peek
at http://www.eio.com/cgi-bin/byteserver.pl/m16410a.pdf . I think this
describes the
part your have. Fortunately, the pinouts of the LCD modules using the
Hitachi HD44780
controller are (as far as I can tell) identical.

There is a lot of code available to show how to use the display. One sample
(used in
a DDS synthesizer project) is at
http://waterw.com/~njqrp/mbrproj/dds_vfo4.txt . There
is also somewhere, a program that will write a test pattern to the LCD,
which works
with single and double row LCDs or different lengths. I can't find it right
now or I would
include it. I'll follow up if I can find the code.

BTW, this was all found through AltaVista  ;-)

Regards,
Paul

At 01:28 PM 4/8/99 +0200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Paul Davis
Sr. Systems Engineer
OEM, Carrier Sales, Healthcare
@spam@pdavisRemoveMEspamEraseMEnbase-xyplex.com
http://www.nbase-xyplex.com
184 Shuman Blvd., Suite 200
Naperville, IL. 60563
Phone: 630-717-2960 x 3072
FAX: 630-357-4237

'[OT]Re: Re: identifying a LCD Panel'
1999\04\08@115910 by Windows-1252?Q?Sebasti=E1n_Dols?=

flavicon
face
WoW. Impressive. I think I must improve quickly my 'Altavista-diving'
capability.

Thanks a lot, Paul


{Quote hidden}

or
{Quote hidden}

'Membrane keypads and front panel vendors wanted'
1999\04\27@230947 by Norman Gillaspie

flavicon
face
I am hoping there are few of you out there that
have had some membrane front panel keypads made.

I am looking for vendors to supply a thin stick
on front panel assembly that has a keypad, cursor
arrows and a cutout for a 2 by 16 line LCD.

This panel would go a 1 rack unit high piece of equipment. I realize that it
would probably have to
be custom made.

I am looking for some sources and experiences.

Thanks

Norman

PCS Engineering
Norman Gillaspie
325M Sharon Park Dr. #210
Menlo park, Ca. 94025
Tel 650-854-5263
Fax 650-854-5445
Email @spam@normanspam_OUTspam.....pcseng.com

1999\04\28@104854 by Octavio Nogueira

flavicon
face
Did you ever try to quote this abroad? Sometimes this
things are cheaper here in Brazil than in US specially
at a dollar rate of US$1.00=R$1.70.
If you want I can quote it for you.

                         /"\
Friendly Regards          \ /
                          X  ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
Octavio Nogueira          / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL
===================================================
spamBeGonenogueiraEraseMEspampropic2.com                  ICQ# 19841898
>From the creator of ProPic,ProPic 2 now much better
New ProPic 2  homepage:      http://www.propic2.com
PIC Programmer for Windows with down to earth price
===================================================
-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Norman Gillaspie <normanspamBeGonespamPCSENG.COM>
Para: <RemoveMEPICLIST@spam@spamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Enviada em: Quarta-feira, Abril 28, 1999 12:13
Assunto: Membrane keypads and front panel vendors wanted


> I am hoping there are few of you out there that
> have had some membrane front panel keypads made.
>
> I am looking for vendors to supply a thin stick
> on front panel assembly that has a keypad, cursor
> arrows and a cutout for a 2 by 16 line LCD.
>
> This panel would go a 1 rack unit high piece of equipment. I realize that
it
{Quote hidden}

1999\04\28@114054 by Reginald Neale

flavicon
face
>I am hoping there are few of you out there that
>have had some membrane front panel keypads made.
>
>I am looking for vendors to supply a thin stick
>on front panel assembly that has a keypad, cursor
>arrows and a cutout for a 2 by 16 line LCD.
>
Norman:

 We had a similar panel made and were pleased with this vendor:

   Duragraphix INC.
   320 N. Washington St.
   Rochester NY 14625
   716-586-0451

 We also had a presentation from:

   GM Nameplate
   10 Francestown Tpk.
   Mt. Vernon NH 03057
   603-673-9737

 Hope this is helpful.

 Reg Neale

1999\04\29@015532 by Norman Gillaspie

flavicon
face
Here is one other membrane switch source.

http://www.enl.com/index.htm

Does anyone have any more? What about bad experiences?

Norman


PCS Engineering
Norman Gillaspie
325M Sharon Park Dr. #210
Menlo park, Ca. 94025
Tel 650-854-5263
Fax 650-854-5445
Email .....normanRemoveMEspampcseng.com


> {Original Message removed}


'LCD Panel for $89'
1999\08\17@005254 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
Found it!  Was in Nuts & Volts, Aug. 99, page 73, bottom right corner.

AllTech Electronics, http://www.ComputerChopper.Com/, has this in their
ad:

9.75" Mono VGA LCD w/Controller, powered from the 16-bit ISA card, uses
Cirrus GD6235 chips, 512k Ram, non upgradable, Win95/98 compatible.  10"
x 6.75" x 3/8" thick.

(760) 724-2404 or (760) 724-8808 Fax, 2618 Temple Heights Drive,
Oceanside, CA  92056

I probably saw it on their web site, at least I FOUND it;  I was
starting to stress over being unable to find this <G>

 Mark

'"Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\25@163554 by PJH

flavicon
face
PICers,

Following on from that thread about
stick-on PCB patterns, has anyone
got ideas about producing "neat"
looking front panels for project
boxes. You used to be able to get a
sort of photosensitized aluminium
sheet. Can't remember the name.

The idea was you made a
photographic (-) & put it over the
panel, gave it a blast under a UV
lamp, developed it somehow and  the
exposed bits stayed on. It allowed
you to produce a reasonably
professional looking panel with
printed labels for switches,
buttons, logo etc.

Haven't seen anything like that in
the electronics shops for years. Is
there anything on the market that
might do the trick?

Cheers - PJH

1999\08\25@165823 by Richard Prosser

flavicon
face
Try 3M "Dynamark II" or possibly "Scotchcal" (?)

We used to use it and believe it's still available from the 3M agent

Richard

> {Original Message removed}

1999\08\25@170442 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>Following on from that thread about
>stick-on PCB patterns, has anyone
>got ideas about producing "neat"
>looking front panels for project
>boxes. You used to be able to get a

I use cut vinyl.  I have a Roland Stika cutter for this.

Works great for my logo and such.  I still use rub-ons for labeling buttons.

FWIW, you can sand/glass blast a polished sheet using the vinyl as a
"resist" to get a really cool-looking custom panel.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
.....andySTOPspamspam@spam@rc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
andyEraseMEspam@spam@montanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

'CAM via Roland Stika was: RE: "Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\25@172809 by eplus1

flavicon
face
Re: the Roland Stika: I am sooo jealous.... That is a nice piece of
equipment. I worked at a computer store years ago that used one to make
lettering to stick onto the windows etc... I keep looking for used units,
etc. but once people get one, they just don't let go.

I spend more time than I should dreaming about Computer Aided Manufacture
via things like the Stika with the ability to mill wood, metal, plastic etc,
Even without the ability to move vertically, this type of machine would
allow the home owner to add decorative molding, scroll work, trim, make
toys, paper houses, dolls, cut outs and the list just goes on and on.

One of these days I'm going to chuck two VSR drill motors to long threaded
stock that are attached via swivel nuts to a sliding platform that carries a
dremel (like with the router attachment) and may be a motorized height
adjustment. With controllers to vary and reverse the drill motors and linear
sensors for position feedback (tape measure with optical sensor to count the
divisions) and some software to compute the trig, I could be able to "plot"
designs into useful materials.


See also: http://www.tinaja.com/flut01.html

James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
(hint: you can add your own private info to the techref)
RemoveMEjamesnewtonspamspamBeGonegeocities.com
1-619-652-0593 phone



{Original Message removed}

'"Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\25@174227 by paulb

flavicon
face
PJH wrote (somewhat narrowly):

> Following on from that thread about stick-on PCB patterns, has anyone
> got ideas about producing "neat" looking front panels for project
> boxes. You used to be able to get a sort of photosensitized aluminium
> sheet. Can't remember the name.

 There was an article about this in the last year or so in one of the
local electronics mags.  Look it up in the library.

 The conclusion IIRC was to either print a panel label onto (permanent-
grade adhesive) label stock (non-slit) using a good toner density, then
(spray) lacquer it, or to print on plain (bond) paper, laminate it
either yourself or commercially, apply a non-soaking adhesive uniformly
(spray adhesive was strongly recommended) and apply.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\08\25@182840 by Keith Doxey

flavicon
face
I remember seeing presensitised panels like you describe. The panels were
Matt Black Anodised and coated with UV resist. After exposure to the artwork
the anodising was etched away revealing the silver aluminium underneath.
There were also bottles of some kind of organic dye in Red, Yellow, Blue and
White which could be used to permanently stain the etched aluminium. Like
you, I havent seen anything similar for years but I am now considering a
quick search to see if I can find it.

If I remember correctly the name of the product I saw was "GEDAKOP" or
something similar. Sounds as if it could be of German origin or some other
European country. Languages never were my strong point :-))

Keith Doxey
http://www.btinternet.com/~krazy.keith
Krazy Keith's World of DIY HomeAutomation


> {Original Message removed}

1999\08\25@193347 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
PJH wrote:
>
> PICers,
>
> Following on from that thread about
> stick-on PCB patterns, has anyone
> got ideas about producing "neat"
> looking front panels for project
> boxes.

This is a method I use. It works as long as the front panel is not going
to be subject to too much abuse.

Celcast make an opaque A4 copier film with an adhesive backing, which
you can use in a laser printer. (Stock ST300)

Use any art package to draw the details you need. I use Protel for a lot
of stuff that just requires lines and letters, as it is easy to line up
with pots, switches etc on a PCB pattern. When you have finished, just
print it onto the copier film. The background in this case is see
through. You can also print the artwork as a negative. ie the letters
and lines are see through and the background is black.

Paint the panel some bright color before sticking the artwork to it.
Yellow is a good contrast. If you printed negative, the letters and
lines etc will become yellow.

To cut any holes out neatly, poke a small hole through the film and then
use a round needle file and rub it gently against the edges of the
holes. Use a small flat file for square holes.

Another method is to print artwork onto paper and laminate it for
protection. Then stick this to the panel with some adhesive.

--
Best regards

Tony

http://www.picnpoke.com
Email spamBeGonesalesKILLspamspam@spam@picnpoke.com

1999\08\25@205431 by William K. Borsum

flavicon
face
At 06:30 AM 8/26/99 +1000, you wrote:
>PICers,
>
>Following on from that thread about
>stick-on PCB patterns, has anyone
>got ideas about producing "neat"
>looking front panels for project
>boxes. You used to be able to get a
>sort of photosensitized aluminium
>sheet. Can't remember the name.

SCOTHCAL--available through most Scotch (3-M) distributors that sell
printing supplies.
Great stuff!
Need a good NEGATIVE film, and a means of exposing--sun will work sort
of--best to make friends with your local printer and use his
plate-maker--Scotchcal is basically the same stuff lithograph plates are
made from


Or:  Get a sheet of unperforated label material that is compatible with
your printer.  Print the label-color or monochrome--and place a layer of
self-adhesive laminating film over the top.  Rub down good and hard to get
out all the bubbles, and cut to size.  Instant (almost) full color labels.
Use Mail-Merge for generating serialized labels, etc.

Warning--they don't like to get wet, and will delaminate.

3-M makes some great double sided adhesives and mylar films used by the
professional label shops.  $5 a foot for 4" wide material--NOT cheap.

Enjoy
Kelly

William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<borsumspam_OUTspam@spam@dascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>

1999\08\25@205434 by William K. Borsum

flavicon
face
At 05:02 PM 8/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Following on from that thread about
>>stick-on PCB patterns, has anyone
>>got ideas about producing "neat"
>>looking front panels for project
>>boxes. You used to be able to get a
>
>I use cut vinyl.  I have a Roland Stika cutter for this.
>
>Works great for my logo and such.  I still use rub-ons for labeling buttons.
>
>FWIW, you can sand/glass blast a polished sheet using the vinyl as a
>"resist" to get a really cool-looking custom panel.

So how does this Stika cutter work?  by hand or in a pen-plotter, or???
Kelly


William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<spamBeGoneborsum@spam@spamdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>

1999\08\25@212838 by Brian Kraut

picon face
Check out Don Lancaster's site at http://www.tinaja.com.  He has written
several times about the photometal process.

I personally silk screen mine.  It is easier and costs less than you
might think.  I can post a tutorial if enough people are interrested.

PJH wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\25@213456 by David Covick

flavicon
face
Brian,

Would be very interested in seeing your silk screen tutorial.

TIA,

David

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Kraut <RemoveMEengaltEraseMEspamKILLspamEARTHLINK.NET>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspam_OUTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: "Neat" Panels?


{Quote hidden}

1999\08\25@214246 by Nick Taylor

picon face
Brian Kraut wrote:
[snip]
> I personally silk screen mine.  It is easier and costs less than you
> might think.  I can post a tutorial if enough people are interrested.

Brian - -
Please do post your silk screen tutorial.  I'm very interested.
Thanks,
- Nick -

1999\08\25@215146 by Brian Kraut

picon face
I've gotten two responses in 10 minutes, so it looks like I am writing a
tutorial this weekend.  It is nice to be able to give back to the list I
have taken so much from.

Nick Taylor wrote:

> Brian Kraut wrote:
> [snip]
> > I personally silk screen mine.  It is easier and costs less than you
> > might think.  I can post a tutorial if enough people are interrested.
>
> Brian - -
> Please do post your silk screen tutorial.  I'm very interested.
> Thanks,
>  - Nick -

1999\08\25@220952 by Brent Brown

picon face
Hi all,

Over the years I've tried heaps of methods for making neat looking
panels so I'd thought I would dump my experimenters brain here in
the hope that people might gain something useful from it. Should
be relevant for hobbyists, prototypers and small run manufacturers.

Firstly I used colour inkjet printouts on paper. Spray it with an art
protector lacquer that gives UV protection. The paper soaks this up
and becomes a little more opaque, but much more hard wearing
and a semi-waterproof. A sheet of double sided adhesive tape on
the back (or spray adhesive) and stick it on the panel. Paint the
panel white first if necessary to improve the appearance. Where
possible a sheet of 1mm polycarbonate over the front, held in place
by switches, pots, terminal posts etc makes it look professional
and wear well.

Variation: For all my prototype stuff now I make my panels as
above but I go down the road to the local colour copy centre and
get my print-out plastic laminated to make it look/last a little better.
These laminating services often give gloss one side and matt on
the other, so matt is what you want for a non-glare finish. Cut out
any windows for LEDs and displays before laminating.

Next method: Laser print or ink jet print on transparency. (Must be
the right type of material for your printer). Flip your image upside
down before printing, so it gets viewed through the transparency.
Now scratches won't wreck it! Spray over the printed side with
gloss white enamel, and back with a layer of double sided adhesive
tape. I initially used white undercoat as it covers better, doesn't
peel off easily, and didn't affect the toner (some enamel paints did),
but it is less white, somewhat hydroscopic (moisture soaks in from
the edges and wrecks inkjet printouts) and tends to discolour a
little with UV and age. For black and white laser prints you can use
any colour paint, even fluorescent and metalics! These labels, the
laser printer ones anyway, are really quick and easy to make,
robust, and stay looking good for ages. You can get clear windows
for LEDs and displays by masking before painting.

Other: Professional screen printing companies use scratch
resistant polyester with that nice textured finish. They can now
supply you with a specially coated thin version of this polyester to
put through your ink jet printer. You stick on a white backing sheet
supplied, over the printing, and add double sided tape. This is a
really promising system but the downsides are: ink jet only, water
ingress from edges spoils them, hassle cutting out white backing
sheet for windows.

Production: Ultimately (traditionally?), professional quality overlays
use screen printing on the back of polyester substrates and involve
expensive setup costs. Polycarbonate is cheaper but lower quality.

Tips for windows: For display windows you can cut out your overlay
right out and use a piece of clear polcarbonate or filter material
behind it. Let it overlap behind your overlay so that it sticks to the
adhesive to help hold it in place and for sealing. For LED windows
you can get away with not cutting out the adhesive, this adds a
little diffusing to the light which may be desired.

Tips for switches: All the above methods work well for tactile
switches mounted behind the overlay. The switches feel better if
they are not adhered to by the adhesive backing. A good idea is to
put a piece of thin plastic on top of the adhesive, between the
overlay and the switch. This makes it better wearing too.

Another option: A sign company here has a machine called Gerber
Edge. Its looks to be a kind of a thermal foil transfer printer, 300dpi.
It prints onto the reverse side of a range of available substrates
including one called lex-edge, which is similar to polyester
overlays. I needed 3 professional quality overlays sized 135 x
80mm, 4 colours, in a hurry. They did the job for NZ$70 (US$30).
Quality as good as screen printing except for alignment of colours
not as precise. Minimal setup costs, artwork supplied by me on
disk straight into their software, looks cheaper than screen printing
for quantities up to about 100.

General: You can learn heaps by experimenting. There are many
different materials/processes you could use so don't be afraid to try
some crazy combinations, and don't listen too seriously to people
who say you can't do it that way.

Oops, didn't mean it to be such a huge essay,
comments/questions/opinions welcome.

Brent Brown
Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street
Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
Mobile: 025 334 069
eMail:  .....brent.brownspamRemoveMEclear.net.nz

'[OT?] was "Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\25@224136 by D. F. Welch

picon face
This question may be straying a bit but has the same goal.  Does anyone
know of a source of laser printable
metal foil label stock.

I have used printed metal foil labels on panels before &
would like to make my own.

Thanks for your help

-Dan - W6DFW

------------------------------------------------------------
At 02:03 PM 8/26/99 +1200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-Dan
EraseMEamersciRemoveMEspamSTOPspamflash.net

'"Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\25@225837 by Gabriel Gonzalez

flavicon
face
This is something I've been wondering for a lon time but I thought it ws
expensive, please do post the tutorial.

Gabriel

{Original Message removed}

1999\08\25@234456 by Glen

flavicon
face
circuit components have some different ways to do it.
ask for doug rees
doug rees <RemoveMEcircomKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTeasy.com.au>
*****************


"Paul B. Webster VK2BZC" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

'[OT?] was "Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\26@002749 by Terry

flavicon
face
You should take a look at the ALPS dye-sub printer, heaps of colors,
metallic foils, prints on paper and clear transparencies, 2400DPI and under
USD 500. Wished i could get one but they dun make them in 240VAC and ALPS
has told me flat out they won't sell. Sigh....


Terry


At 07:36 PM 8/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'"Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\26@004510 by William K. Borsum

flavicon
face
At 02:03 PM 8/26/99 +1200, you wrote:
>Hi all,
.>Other: Professional screen printing companies use scratch
>resistant polyester with that nice textured finish. They can now
>supply you with a specially coated thin version of this polyester to
>put through your ink jet printer. You stick on a white backing sheet
>supplied, over the printing, and add double sided tape. This is a
>really promising system but the downsides are: ink jet only, water
>ingress from edges spoils them, hassle cutting out white backing
>sheet for windows.

Do you have trade names and sources for this stuff--our local label
companies don't want to tell for obvious reasons.

>Tips for switches: All the above methods work well for tactile
>switches mounted behind the overlay. The switches feel better if
>they are not adhered to by the adhesive backing. A good idea is to
>put a piece of thin plastic on top of the adhesive, between the
>overlay and the switch. This makes it better wearing too.

How about a quick tutorial on making your own tactile switches?

Now, how about a nice laser for cutting out the labels around contours--and
trimming my resistors?

Kelly


William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<borsumspamspamdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>

1999\08\26@013446 by Brent Brown

picon face
Kelly,

The special ink jet film is made by Folex and is called something
like:-  GO-DE/GSI - UV graphic overlay film for ink jet printers.

You should be able to get it from a commercial printing supplier.
I've been told its about $NZ300 per box of 50 A4 sheets. A local
label company wants $NZ30 per A4 sheet printed on this stuff (or
something very similar).

I use PCB mounted tactile switches (that's what I call them) behind
the labels. The switch contacts built in to labels I call membrane
keys. I'm not keen to try making them myself.

You might be onto something there with the laser - could it cut out
a stack of labels 50 deep? How about printing with it too, like on
the key caps of some PC keyboards I've seen lately. Throw some
cyan, magenta, yellow, black chalk dust over the label alternately
and blast each dot into the polyester sheet. Then use the same
technology to apply the worlds fastest tattoos :-)

Brent


{Quote hidden}

Brent Brown
Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street
Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
Mobile: 025 334 069
eMail:  spam_OUTbrent.brownspam_OUTspamspam_OUTclear.net.nz

'Gedakop - Aluminium Front Panels'
1999\08\26@034045 by Keith Doxey

flavicon
face
part 0 264 bytes
further to my previous post....i dont know why I didnt search earlier.

http://www.megaelect.demon.co.uk/gedakop.html

Guess I'll be spending even more money now :-))


Keith Doxey
http://www.btinternet.com/~krazy.keith
Krazy Keith's World of DIY HomeAutomation


'"Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\26@085718 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>So how does this Stika cutter work?  by hand or in a pen-plotter, or???
>Kelly

Think of it as a plotter which has a knife instead of a pen.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
andyspam_OUTspamrc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
RemoveMEandyKILLspamspam@spam@montanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\08\26@091436 by Adam Davis

flavicon
face
I've seen one of these at work.  Very cool.  Think of a plotter, where the paper
moves (from a roll) under the pen, and the pen moves perpendicular to the
paper.  So now you have a 2d plotter.  The pen is not much more than an x-acto
knife blade, attached to a motor/servo/stepper of some kind so it can rotate, so
it is always cutting straight.  It is neat to watch the blade swivel as it goes
around curves and other such features.

-Adam

Andy Kunz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\08\26@110133 by eplus1

flavicon
face
<BLOCKQUOTE AUTHOR="Brian Kraut">I can post a tutorial if enough people are
interested.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Please.

James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
(hint: you can add your own private info to the techref)
spam_OUTjamesnewtonspamKILLspamgeocities.com
1-619-652-0593 phone

'[Fwd: "Neat" Panels?]'
1999\08\26@160700 by PJH

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From: "John" <jsandspamspampixie.co.za>
To: <RemoveMEelekspamBeGonespamRemoveMEnetstra.com.au>
Subject: "Neat" Panels?
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:03:28 +0200
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Dear PJH (?name? I'm sure you have one!),

Please favour me and send this on to the PIClist.
For some unaccountable reason,  my posts to the list have been getting
bounced
lately.
<if you like, you can hazard guesses to me about why this could be>

*******************************************************************

Hello PIC.ers & PJH,

I've been tackling this, and can short circuit your design effort a lot.
This is just a good chance to give something back to all the other PIC.ers
who've selflessly passed on so much hard-won experience to this
great list, mostly rewardlessly.
BTW I'm using this in PIC-based stuff, b4 anyone complains about OT....

I use an Epson Stylus 400 colour printer in the office, I'll just suppose
you have/have access to such an inkjet printer.
I don't think it can make much difference which make or model you use.
After researching the local paper distributors, I found a large concern that
didn't mind giving me 1on1 advice re. which paper to use, how to setup the
printer for the likeliest best results, etc., etc.

I bought some paper from them, it was a high quality gloss - I'm using
Fasson Permanent SuperGloss Print cc2361.
It has a sticky backing, called `crack-back', which allows you to plant the
finished piece onto the panel by pealing pre-cut strips off  the backing a
bit at a time, so you can cover a large area without creases and ripples in
the finish.

The stuff comes in 700x1000 size, you have to take care in handling it,
don't roll it up, etc.
Cut a size from it that will overlap by ~25mm. the dimensions of your panel,
on all 4 sides.

Use a graphics package capable of fine and accurate dimensioning of the
final printout.
I'm happy with an old version of  MicrografX Charisma 2.1 , but I'm sure any
other decent package would do.
Draw your intended layout, accurate to within a mm. or so for all cutouts
and switch positions.
If you have panel LEDs to show, you may locate them *behind* the paper,
without any marked position, the LED just shines thru the metal/plastic
panel hole and onto the paper.
It's a nice effect - esp. if you use a high output type.

You'll have to experiment with the printer settings to get the best result,
my setup works with high definition (720dpi), gloss paper box checked, etc.
After printing, the paper is laid directly onto the pre-cut-out panel,
but it would have no durability against wear, dirt, fingers, water and
general environment unless you:

1.   Make a 3mm. thickness perspex (methylmethacrylate) to cover it, but
      this is a lot of work to do nicely. For anything other than a 1-off,
      this is a no-no, so instead  :-
2.    As this above process is dirt-cheap you can afford to make a number
      of printouts in excess of the number you actually need for your
      production run.
      Do so.
      Then take the bunch down to your high-street printing shop and get
them to hot-laminate them.
Laminate always seems to be PVC, and generally 125 micron thick.
Ask the shop to lam. your prints in *TWOs*, I mean two at a time back to
back, with the print facing outwards.
When they are run thru the machine, both pieces get laminated but each one
only gets PVC on it's front face, none on the crack-back peel-off side.
(... are y'all still with me on this one?....  )
After this you just use a scalpel (or scissors) to cut around the periphery
and separate the pair.
Each of the two is ready to go on a panel.

THEN.
Remember the 25mm excess border?
This border is also sticky-exposed after you've spread the lam./paper
picture on the panel.
DON'T cut it off.
You need this to be wrapped onto the back of the panel, so that the
lam./paper doesn't peel off the panel later,
---which it *will* , if you don't do the next.....
The lam. can be wrapped over the edge of the panel and then held there.
You'll want to cut away the corner pieces, to stop any overlap & crumpling
in these zones.
..... & this...this folks... is the piece-de-resistance....
Pinch the steam-iron from the kitchen...  (be sure the wife is out, first)

Iron the PVC/paper into place, the heat will plasticise the material very
nicely with care.
It helps a lot to have a heated-up *ironing-board* underneath. Clean piece
of mild steel plate does well.
Voila!

I've got a number of products out in the field (and I mean, *Field*), with
so-far no complaints.
To consider:-
1.   The paper must be the highest quality you can get, so exposure to air,
light will not degrade it quickly.
It is still cheap in comparison to your total product costs, unless you're
gearing to put 10^6 gizmos in Christmas crackers or something.....
2.   The printing shop will -unintentionally- screw up some of your prints
in the laminating machine, so you must give them enough
excess pieces to get your run quantity.

The method is not only cheap and easy, it works for large runs too, and you
don't need rocket scientists to assemble your enclosures.


best regards,   John


{Quote hidden}

e-mail from the desk of John Sanderson, JS Controls.
Snailmail:          PO Box 1887, Boksburg 1460, Rep. of South Africa.
Tel/fax:            Johannesburg  893 4154
Cellphone no:   082 469 0446
email:                @spam@jsandSTOPspamspam@spam@pixie.co.za
Manufacturer & purveyor of laboratory force testing apparatus, and related
products and services.



'[OT?] was "Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\26@210142 by Anne Ogborn

flavicon
face
Terry wrote:
>
> You should take a look at the ALPS dye-sub printer, heaps of colors,
> metallic foils, prints on paper and clear transparencies, 2400DPI and under
> USD 500. Wished i could get one but they dun make them in 240VAC and ALPS
> has told me flat out they won't sell. Sigh....
>
> Terry
>

I have one. It's wonderful.

Consider buying a 110VAC version and a transformer intended for US
tourists in Europe. They are inexpensive and widely available here.


--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\08\26@212433 by Terry

flavicon
face
At 06:00 PM 8/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Terry wrote:
>>
>> You should take a look at the ALPS dye-sub printer, heaps of colors,
>> metallic foils, prints on paper and clear transparencies, 2400DPI and under
>> USD 500. Wished i could get one but they dun make them in 240VAC and ALPS
>> has told me flat out they won't sell. Sigh....
>>
>> Terry
>>
>
>I have one. It's wonderful.
>


Annie...... ARGH!!! dun rub it in.... *groan*


>Consider buying a 110VAC version and a transformer intended for US
>tourists in Europe. They are inexpensive and widely available here.

No servicing or warranty and the shipping was quoted at over 100 USD!!


Terry


>Anniepoo
>Need loco motors?
>http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html
>

'"Neat" Panels?'
1999\08\28@145138 by John Griessen

flavicon
face
What kind of polished sheet works well sandblasted?  Sounds like a
very good looking see-in-the-dark control panel!  Ordinary Lexan?
polyester?  how about super-tough polypropylene??

John Griessen
Cibolo Metal Works  http://www.aus-etc.com/~cibolo
Austin TX

> {Original Message removed}


'"Neat" Panels?'
1999\09\02@220956 by Andy Kunz
flavicon
face
At 01:50 PM 8/28/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>What kind of polished sheet works well sandblasted?  Sounds like a
>very good looking see-in-the-dark control panel!  Ordinary Lexan?
>polyester?  how about super-tough polypropylene??

Mine are aluminum (Aluminium for those of you who just _think_ you speak
English <G>)

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
andyspamBeGonespamspamBeGonerc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
spamBeGoneandyspammontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\09\02@225849 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 22:04 2/09/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 01:50 PM 8/28/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>>What kind of polished sheet works well sandblasted?  Sounds like a
>>very good looking see-in-the-dark control panel!  Ordinary Lexan?
>>polyester?  how about super-tough polypropylene??
>
>Mine are aluminum (Aluminium for those of you who just _think_ you speak
>English <G>)


What do ya mean. I speak English, but make every attempt not to use some of
that barstadised stuff that comes from that place with only two coast lines :)

Dennis

{Quote hidden}

1999\09\02@234722 by l.allen

picon face
>
> >
> >Mine are aluminum (Aluminium for those of you who just _think_ you speak
> >English <G>)
>
>
> What do ya mean. I speak English, but make every attempt not to use some of
> that barstadised stuff that comes from that place with only two coast lines :)
>
> Dennis
>

Dennis.... Australians in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand
_____________________________

1999\09\02@234733 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
Dennis Plunkett wrote:
>
> At 22:04 2/09/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 01:50 PM 8/28/1999 -0500, you wrote:
> >>What kind of polished sheet works well sandblasted?  Sounds like a
> >>very good looking see-in-the-dark control panel!  Ordinary Lexan?
> >>polyester?  how about super-tough polypropylene??
> >
> >Mine are aluminum (Aluminium for those of you who just _think_ you speak
> >English <G>)
>
> What do ya mean. I speak English, but make every attempt not to use some of
> that barstadised stuff that comes from that place with only two coast lines :)

Well, it gets you thru the nite with some color!
Aaaaaaarrrrrrrghhhhhh!

Hmmmmm. Thinking about it, Dennis, you only have *one*
coastline in Oz!

--
Friendly Regards           /"\
                          \ /
Tjaart van der Walt         X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
TakeThisOuTtjaartspamspamRemoveMEcellpt.co.za / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL
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|    http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html      |
| WGS84 -26.0124 +28.1129  Voice +27 (0)11 2545100 |
|--------------------------------------------------|

1999\09\03@002905 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Tjaart!

That's telling them! <VBEG>

BTW,in all seriousness, how do you pronounce your first name, is it roughly
like the word "chart",or do you actually put some "t" into it like
"Tchart",or like "Tyart"?

Just an American trying to pronounce Afrikaans correctly <G>,

Sean


At 05:54 AM 9/3/99 +0200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
shb7RemoveMEspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\09\03@004422 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 05:54 3/09/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Dennis Plunkett wrote:
>>
>> At 22:04 2/09/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> >At 01:50 PM 8/28/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>What kind of polished sheet works well sandblasted?  Sounds like a
>> >>very good looking see-in-the-dark control panel!  Ordinary Lexan?
>> >>polyester?  how about super-tough polypropylene??
>> >
>> >Mine are aluminum (Aluminium for those of you who just _think_ you speak
>> >English <G>)
>>
>> What do ya mean. I speak English, but make every attempt not to use some of
>> that barstadised stuff that comes from that place with only two coast
lines :)
>
>Well, it gets you thru the nite with some color!
>Aaaaaaarrrrrrrghhhhhh!
>
>Hmmmmm. Thinking about it, Dennis, you only have *one*
>coastline in Oz!

??? Technically, we are surrounded by four seas, but yes we have one very
long, rugged and beautiful coastline. Ahh that's one of the reasons why I
call this place HOME


Dennis


P.S.
Just to add to you list are:-
Harbour
Optimise
Standardise
Colourise
Four
and the list goes on... I am sure that out of the 830000 odd words that
there is a few more :)




{Quote hidden}

1999\09\03@004444 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:
>
> Hi Tjaart!
>
> That's telling them! <VBEG>
>
> BTW,in all seriousness, how do you pronounce your first name, is it roughly
> like the word "chart",or do you actually put some "t" into it like
> "Tchart",or like "Tyart"?
>
> Just an American trying to pronounce Afrikaans correctly <G>,

You pronounce it "chart". Suppliers and customers from the far east,
french, and latin countries usually have a field day with my name.
Some of the attempts are non-printable! ;) I've even considered
adopting a 'business name' (also like the eastern people) like
"Chad", or "Charles" or something.

Then again, it is a constant source of amusement ;) One guy from
Taiwan asked to speak to "short". My collegues were very amuzed (I'm 6"4).

--
Friendly Regards           /"\
                          \ /
Tjaart van der Walt         X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
spam_OUTtjaartRemoveMEspamEraseMEcellpt.co.za / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL
|--------------------------------------------------|
|  GSM Technology for Positioning and Telematics   |
|  Cellpoint Systems SA    http://www.cellpt.com   |
|    http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html      |
| WGS84 -26.0124 +28.1129  Voice +27 (0)11 2545100 |
|--------------------------------------------------|

1999\09\03@004620 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 23:58 2/09/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi Tjaart!
>
>That's telling them! <VBEG>
>
>BTW,in all seriousness, how do you pronounce your first name, is it roughly
>like the word "chart",or do you actually put some "t" into it like
>"Tchart",or like "Tyart"?
>
>Just an American trying to pronounce Afrikaans correctly <G>,
>
>Sean

My guess is that it has a silent "T", and pronounced as Jarrt

{Quote hidden}

1999\09\03@012819 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Tjaart van der Walt wrote:

> Hmmmmm. Thinking about it, Dennis, you only have *one*
> coastline in Oz!

1 1/2

Don't forget Tassie ;-)

--
Best regards

Tony

http://www.picnpoke.com
Email spamsales.....spamspampicnpoke.com

1999\09\03@072729 by Andrej Nemec

flavicon
face
> Following on from that thread about
> stick-on PCB patterns, has anyone
> got ideas about producing "neat"
> looking front panels for project
> boxes. You used to be able to get a
> sort of photosensitized aluminium
> sheet. Can't remember the name.

"GEDAKOP" a Swiss product (among the others).

Cheers, Andrej

1999\09\03@101625 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>What do ya mean. I speak English, but make every attempt not to use some of
>that barstadised stuff that comes from that place with only two coast lines :)

What place is that?  The US has quite a few coasts, so I know you aren't
talking about us!  There's the Left Coast (California/Oregon/Washington),
the Arctic Coast (Alaska), the East Coast, the Gulf Coast, not to mention
the Continuous Coast (Hawaii).

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
andyspam_OUTspam@spam@rc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
.....andyspamspam.....montanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\09\03@193558 by Agnes en Henk Tobbe

flavicon
face
What's the big deal..... I would pronounce it Tjaart.
Henk (expat Dutch in Oz).

>"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tjaart!
>>
>> That's telling them! <VBEG>
>>
>> BTW,in all seriousness, how do you pronounce your first name, is it
roughly
{Quote hidden}

1999\09\03@193601 by Agnes en Henk Tobbe

flavicon
face

Attachment converted: wonderland:Happy99.exe (bina/mdos) (0000C0B2)

1999\09\03@194423 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> >Some of the attempts are non-printable! ;) I've even considered
> >adopting a 'business name' (also like the eastern people) like
> >"Chad", or "Charles" or something.
> >
> >Then again, it is a constant source of amusement ;) One guy from
> >Taiwan asked to speak to "short". My collegues were very amuzed (I'm
6"4).


One fellow I met in Taiwan was: Beyond Horng

I never forgot him!

1999\09\03@194431 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
You've got Happy 99!  It came to the list!

'[OT] "Neat" Panels? DONT OPEN ATTACHMENT!'
1999\09\03@194635 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
It's happy 99

'Fwd: Re: [OT] "Neat" Panels? [Infected with HAPPY9'
1999\09\05@004247 by Robert A. LaBudde

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

This person sent out an email to PICLIST infected with HAPPY99.EXE (an
attachment). Everyone should delete this email and the HAPPY99.EXE attachment.

The person responsible needs to disinfect her computer.

================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: EraseMEral.....spamKILLspamlcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.                   URL: http://lcfltd.com/
824 Timberlake Drive                            Tel: 757-467-0954
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239                   Fax: 757-467-2947

"Vere scire est per causae scire"
================================================================

1999\09\05@013255 by John Maud

picon face
Nee, boet!

You have to rrroll that "r". ;-)

John

Agnes en Henk Tobbe wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\09\05@165113 by l.allen

picon face
Dennis wrote...
>
> ??? Technically, we are surrounded by four seas, but yes we have one very
> long, rugged and beautiful coastline. Ahh that's one of the reasons why I
> call this place HOME
>
>

Its a crying shame the land is mostly a big bloody desert... with
lots of poisonous things in it.

_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand
_____________________________

1999\09\05@180501 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 09:55 3/09/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>What do ya mean. I speak English, but make every attempt not to use some of
>>that barstadised stuff that comes from that place with only two coast
lines :)
{Quote hidden}

Got me Andy!
I forgot about the place you brought, but the "Left coast"?...

Dennis

1999\09\05@183833 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>I forgot about the place you brought, but the "Left coast"?...

<flame suit on>

That's what we call the area which is inundated by lefties, most of which
seem to originate in California and spread their perversion from there.

I believe the term originated on the Rush Limbaugh radio talk show.

<flame suit off>

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
andySTOPspamspamKILLspamrc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
@spam@andy.....spamspammontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

'[OT] "Neat" Panels? -Reply'
1999\09\08@212443 by Kevin Allenzovic

flavicon
face
Thanks a lot !!!!

'Will Make Front Panels for Food'
1999\09\16@213316 by Rock Thompson

picon face
I've seen discussions about panels, sheet metal, labels, etc., so I
thought I'd offer this:

Besides playing with PICs I have a CNC machine shop.  For a recent
project I made fixtures and wrote some macros to machine prototype
quantities of various front panels. We'll have this setup on our
machine for a while, so if anyone is interested in having front panels
made, let me know and we can slip them in.  I would guess that we could
do it cheaper and faster than the local sheet metal shop.  (Maybe even
for free if you help me finish my project obsession: "Replacing an
entire CNC control with PICs" - guaranteed to make you a fixture in a
nice asylum somewhere.)

BTW, for labeling, we've done both screen printing or laser marking,
but my favorite method personally is something anyone with an inkjet
can do themselves, an "emulsion side down" print on transparent film.
I use Epson film, although I'm sure there are cheaper sources.  I first
tried this for some prototypes in an attempt to simulate expensive
production Lexan labels.  The inkjet looked fully professional, better,
in fact, than the production label.

I also once made a panel that had a colored inkjet print, with text,
and used LEDs behind the colored portion as various indicators.  This
looked fantastic.  You can also put a tactile switch behind the inkjet
film to make your own prototype membrane switches.  My next experiment
involves vacuum forming to see if I can put in a "bubble" for the
switch button.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in having panels made, please e-mail me
directly and I'll send you more info.

Thanks, Rock



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

'Will Make Front Panels for Food---- How To Reply??'
1999\09\17@134132 by adastra

flavicon
face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pic microcontroller discussion list
> [spamPICLIST.....spam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Rock Thompson
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 7:12 PM
> To: PICLIST.....spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Will Make Front Panels for Food
>

I often see posts such as this one where we are invited to reply do the
poster directly, by email.
I use MS Outlook, and the only return address I ever see is the piclist
itself.
Is this a case of the original poster forgetting to include his/her email
address, or is
there some other way for me to get it?

BTW, Rock, I would like to have the information.
My email address is:  KILLspamfosterspam_OUTspamadastran.com

Thanks!

       Foster Brashear


{Quote hidden}

1999\09\17@160129 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
On Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 11:34:09AM -0600, adastra wrote:
>
> I often see posts such as this one where we are invited to reply do the
> poster directly, by email.
> I use MS Outlook, and the only return address I ever see is the piclist
> itself.
> Is this a case of the original poster forgetting to include his/her email
> address, or is
> there some other way for me to get it?

The PICLIST L-Soft mail processor inserts a Reply-To:
which overrides the From: address when your mailer
replies. In Outlook, the only way I know to "easily"
do this is to

  (a) open the message you want to reply to (it isn't
      enough to "preview" in the main Outlook window)
  (b) Select the text in the From field (even though
      it doesn't appear to be selectable text, it is,
      and it will select the address you want, not
      the text name as shown)
  (c) Right-click copy, Cntl-C or Edit... Copy to get
      the address into the clipboard,
  (d) Click the Reply button
  (e) select the piclist address in the To: field --
      the whole thing should select on a single click,
  (f) Right-click paste, Cntl-V or Edit... Paste.

At that point, you should have a reply to the original
poster, not the PICLIST.

This is why I always set my Reply-To: to myself; I
occasionally get messages intended for the list,
but I think it's better than having private replies
go to the list. One can always reply to the list
from my messages by doing a reply-to-all or group
reply.

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
spam_OUTbobspamTakeThisOuTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================
       http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/
============================================================

1999\09\17@161419 by Brian Aase

flavicon
face
Can you (or anyone) be a little more specific about this "Epson film"
stuff?  Sounds like it may be really useful.  Exactly what is it
called, and where can it be bought?
Brian Aase

> {Original Message removed}

1999\09\17@163322 by eplus1

flavicon
face
Double click to open the message in its own window, right click on the email
address after "on behalf of" in the from field, and select "copy" then hit
reply and right click in the to field and hit paste.

People will tell you to use "Reply to all" rather than "Reply" but that
don't work for me with piclist messages.

James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
(hint: you can add your own private info to the techref)
.....jamesnewton.....spamRemoveMEgeocities.com
1-619-652-0593 phone



{Original Message removed}

1999\09\17@211145 by Jeff Barlow

flavicon
face
1. Open the message
2. Click View then Options
3. Look in the text box at the bottom of the dialog box, the last "from:"
field should be the one you want.

{Original Message removed}

1999\09\18@182442 by paulb

flavicon
face
adastra wrote:

> and the only return address I ever see is the piclist itself.

 which was *preceded* by ...

> I use MS Outlook,

 Says it all!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Is this a case of the original poster forgetting to include his/her
> email address,

 No, as that's virtually impossible.

> or is there some other way for me to get it?

 There probably is.  Play with some settings, if you can find any.  If
not, you just have to decide - do you want everything to look pretty, or
do you want to get some work done?

 I know this "M$ software" theme is getting pretty well-worn, but when
you really get down to the nitty-gritty, that's just how it is!
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\09\19@031332 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
adastra wrote:
> Is this a case of the original poster forgetting to include his/her
> email address,

... In which case the PICList would discard the post as not coming from
a SUBSCRIBER to the PICList (A prerequisite for posting to the list!)

It's a MS Exchange software problem, Netscape doesn't have this problem
(for example).

 Mark

1999\09\19@070043 by Peter van Hoof

flavicon
face
There is a way, double click message to open it.
click view,options. this shows you the full header. (this is in outlook
2000)

Peter van Hoof
-------------
spam_OUTpvhTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEvertonet.com
http://go.to/pvh

> {Original Message removed}

1999\09\20@154938 by Rock Thompson

picon face
You can order it directly from Epson's web site.  Look under supplies
for inkjets.  It's expensive but works well.  When you print on it, try
different settings.  For example, on my printer, the "glossy photo
paper" setting gives more resolution and is more opaque than the
"inkjet transparentcy" setting.

Rock

--- Brian Aase <EraseMEulcsaspamBeGonespamKILLspamESKIMO.COM> wrote:
> Can you (or anyone) be a little more specific about
> this "Epson film"
> stuff?  Sounds like it may be really useful.
> Exactly what is it
> called, and where can it be bought?
> Brian Aase
>
> > {Original Message removed}

'[OT] "Neat" Panels?'
1999\09\26@150531 by Bruce Cannon

flavicon
face
Andy, you should probably not take the flame suit off as soon as you get
done saying something stupid, but leave it on until you people get finished
flaming you; that's why they call it a flame suit, get it?  I may be wasting
badwidth with that advice as Rush's listeners by definition aren't too swift
on the uptake.  I mean, they affectionately call themseleves 'dittoheads'
fer cryin out loud.  Rope-tow politics for those too busy to think for
themselves.

> That's what we call the area which is inundated by lefties,
> most of which
> seem to originate in California and spread their perversion
> from there.
>
> I believe the term originated on the Rush Limbaugh radio talk show.

Bruce Cannon
Style Management Systems
1228 Ceres ST Crockett CA 94525
(510) 787-6870
http://www.jps.net/bcannon

Remember: electronics is changing your world...for good!

1999\09\26@225509 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>flaming you; that's why they call it a flame suit, get it?  I may be wasting
>badwidth with that advice as Rush's listeners by definition aren't too swift
>on the uptake.  I mean, they affectionately call themseleves 'dittoheads'
>fer cryin out loud.  Rope-tow politics for those too busy to think for

Rush is entertainment.  I used to listen to it, but got tired of the
repetition.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
RemoveMEandyspamBeGonespamspamrc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
@spam@andyspamspammontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================


'Flat Panel Displays site; VGA LCD Interfacing?'
1999\12\15@120949 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
www.fpdonline.com/ has a bunch of info on Flat Panel Displays.
Some things I will dig into later, like a 15" low power reflective TFT
display (no backlight!), the site looks like a large industry info /
press release archive, the company hosting the site is a translation
company.  Japanese Patents in the area in there, as well.

I'm looking for a source of industry-wide datasheets for FPD's, want
some 12"-15" Mono VGA graphics LCD displays for an eventual PIC project,
it'd sure be nice if I can find a first few sample LCD displays for low
costs, anyone displayed to a VGA LCD here yet?  Should be fun <G>  It's
a commercial project, cannot talk too much about it (don't want some big
company to go do it on me <G>), I wish those ElectroPaper displays were
available as I could use those instead.  Don't need lots of graphics,
this is a book-like application, only more complex than that <G>

 Mark

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

1999\12\15@125808 by James Paul

flavicon
face
Mark,

I have a large LCD panel that was (is) a display from a Compaq
notebook computer.  I only gave about $25.00 for it.  It has
some scratches in the polarizing filter, and has no backlight,
although it backlightable.  But for trying out your idea, it
may be useful.  I don't have any data on it, but some may be
available on the web.  Let me know if you'd be interested.
I'll let you have it for $10.00 or so if you want it.  I got
it for a project that never materialized, and don't need it now.
Let me know if you want it.

                                       Regards,

                                         Jim


On Wed, 15 December 1999, Mark Willis wrote:

{Quote hidden}

TakeThisOuTjimKILLspamspam@spam@jpes.com

1999\12\16@064407 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
OK, James;  Let me file it for right now (The stove here has SOME kind
of problem, the place filled with smoke!)  I don't think I'll be doing
much other than stove fixing tomorrow.  Drat!  Had such a good
productive streak going today, until I turned the stove on...

 Mark

James Paul wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'Flat Panel Displays available for projects'
1999\12\17@142331 by mike

picon face
I have 18 LCD displays from Dell laptops ( still
within the cover ). Condition unknown and no specs.
Appear to be 640*480, probably mono, with chips
mounted within the LCD in the cover

I would sell them for US$ 26 each ( or make offer if
you want more than one) plus shipping. Anyone
interested please respond to <KILLspamlktronspamTakeThisOuTyahoo.com>.







--- Mark Willis <TakeThisOuTmwillisspamspam_OUTFOXINTERNET.NET> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com


'[OT] Panelizing a board'
2000\01\05@093744 by Lawrence Lile
flavicon
face
I've been a recent convert to Eagle PCB CAD, and even paid them  $50 for a
registered  copy.

<rant mode = ON>  I do pay my shareware bills,

and I wish Jory would excommunicate all these guys offering CRACKED software
on the PIClist! I hope that these crackers actually write some REAL software
someday, and then get it ripped off, and then go broke making no money after
being robbed.

<rant mode = OFF>

Here's my dillema.  I need to panelize a PCB - it's a 2" X 2" board and I
need 6 of them in a 4" x 6" layout.  No problem in my old CAD systrem (which
other than having panelization was useless).  Eagle is a great software
package, but it does not have a panelization option.

How about just copying everything over and over?  No good - I didn't buy
enough square inches of EAGLE (crippleware, you know) to do a very big
board.  All my designs are really tiny!

I found I could monkey-wrench a panelized version by making a gerber file,
then making another with an offset, then another with another offset, and
using a text editor and scrunching them all together, moving blocks of stuff
around to fix the syntax of the file.  Tedious, time consuming, and
educational.

I tried this old DOS trick:  copy gerber1.gbr  +gerber2.gbr +gerber3.gbr
final.gbr
which appends all the files together.  My software can read it, but I don't
really trust it very well.  Anybody know if this would really result in a
valid Gerber file?

Is there any Gerber file editor out there that can panelize a gerber file
without so much pain?  Same issue with a drill file?  I don't have a way of
reading back a drill file to know if it is corrupt or not.

-- Lawrence Lile

2000\01\05@095223 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
I'm sure that the PCB house that we often use (QuickCircuits) sorts out all
the pannelising out for you.  Maybe your place will to?

Mike

> {Original Message removed}

2000\01\05@095629 by James Paul

flavicon
face
Talk to your board house.  There is almost certainly someone
there that has the knowledge and software to panelize a board
for you.  At least here in the Houston area, the board houses
that I've dealt with both personally and professionally have
done this sort of thing for me.  But if you have a 2"x2" board,
and you want to panelize it into 4"x6", you aren't going to have
any waste to cut the boards apart unless this has been taken
into consideration in the border width of the board itself.

                         Good Luck and Regards,

                                 Jim



On Wed, 05 January 2000, Lawrence Lile wrote:

{Quote hidden}

.....jimEraseMEspamjpes.com

2000\01\05@103352 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
Thanks for all your guys help.  Letting the board house do it is probably
best.


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Rigby-Jones +ADw-mrjones+AEA-NORTELNETWORKS.COM+AD4-
To: PICLIST+AEA-MITVMA.MIT.EDU +ADw-PICLIST+AEA-MITVMA.MIT.EDU+AD4-
Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: +AFs-OT+AF0- Panelizing a board


+AD4-I'm sure that the PCB house that we often use (QuickCircuits) sorts out all
+AD4-the pannelising out for you.  Maybe your place will to?
+AD4-
+AD4-Mike
+AD4-
+AD4APg- -----Original Message-----
+AD4APg- From: Lawrence Lile +AFs-SMTP:lilel+AEA-TOASTMASTER.COM+AF0-
+AD4APg- Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 2:36 PM
+AD4APg- To:   PICLIST+AEA-MITVMA.MIT.EDU
+AD4APg- Subject:      +AFs-OT+AF0- Panelizing a board
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- I've been a recent convert to Eagle PCB CAD, and even paid them  +ACQ-50 for
a
+AD4APg- registered  copy.
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- +ADw-rant mode +AD0- ON+AD4-  I do pay my shareware bills,
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- and I wish Jory would excommunicate all these guys offering CRACKED
+AD4APg- software
+AD4APg- on the PIClist+ACE- I hope that these crackers actually write some REAL
+AD4APg- software
+AD4APg- someday, and then get it ripped off, and then go broke making no money
+AD4APg- after
+AD4APg- being robbed.
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- +ADw-rant mode +AD0- OFF+AD4-
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- Here's my dillema.  I need to panelize a PCB - it's a 2+ACI- X 2+ACI- board and I
+AD4APg- need 6 of them in a 4+ACI- x 6+ACI- layout.  No problem in my old CAD systrem
+AD4APg- (which
+AD4APg- other than having panelization was useless).  Eagle is a great software
+AD4APg- package, but it does not have a panelization option.
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- How about just copying everything over and over?  No good - I didn't buy
+AD4APg- enough square inches of EAGLE (crippleware, you know) to do a very big
+AD4APg- board.  All my designs are really tiny+ACE-
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- I found I could monkey-wrench a panelized version by making a gerber
file,
+AD4APg- then making another with an offset, then another with another offset, and
+AD4APg- using a text editor and scrunching them all together, moving blocks of
+AD4APg- stuff
+AD4APg- around to fix the syntax of the file.  Tedious, time consuming, and
+AD4APg- educational.
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- I tried this old DOS trick:  copy gerber1.gbr  +gerbeg-.gbr +gerbeg-.gbr
+AD4APg- final.gbr
+AD4APg- which appends all the files together.  My software can read it, but I
+AD4APg- don't
+AD4APg- really trust it very well.  Anybody know if this would really result in a
+AD4APg- valid Gerber file?
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- Is there any Gerber file editor out there that can panelize a gerber file
+AD4APg- without so much pain?  Same issue with a drill file?  I don't have a way
+AD4APg- of
+AD4APg- reading back a drill file to know if it is corrupt or not.
+AD4APg-
+AD4APg- -- Lawrence Lile

2000\01\06@055001 by Mike Miller

flavicon
face
Sorry I can't help you with the panelization but to verify that you have
valid gerber and drill files I suggest you go to:

http://www.graphicode.com/index.cfm?section=download

and download GCPREVUE. It is a shareware (no charge) package for gerber
and drill viewing which has been expanded over the years to include HPGL
and other engineering type files.

Regards,
Mike Miller.

2000\01\06@093944 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
THanks for all your suggestions, guys.  There are two really good ways to
go:

1:  Make multiple gerbers with offsets, and then append them into a single
file with the Dos COPY + command.  this is bonehead simple and seems to
work.  Also probably works for drill files, although I could not verify
this.

2.  Ask your board house to do it for free.  They will.  This is what I
finally did.

-- Lawrence


{Original Message removed}

'[OT] 6 way RCA socket panels'
2000\01\12@050444 by David Duffy

flavicon
face
<x-flowed>Hi,
Does anyone know where I can get smallish quantities (1000) of
6 way RCA socket panels with white/red/yellow coloured inserts.
They're just like the ones you see on stereo VCR's,etc.
(Two rows of white/red/yellow for A/V input/output)
The pcb pins need to exit via the rear of socket. (not R/A)
Oh yes, the unit I want to make has a PIC (or two) in it !
Thanks in advance for any leads.  :-)
Regards...

_______________________________________________________________
Dave Duffy         Audio Visual Devices           spamBeGoneAVDspamRemoveMEuq.net.au
Unit 8, 9-11 Trade Street, Cleveland, Queensland 4163 Australia
Phone: +61 7 38210362                 Facsimile: +61 7 38210281
_______________________________________________________________

</x-flowed>


'[OT]: Small cheap analog panel meters; Solar cells'
2000\06\04@165437 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
Looking for about a dozen little rectangular analog panel meters, say
0-100mA or ??? (Will settle for anything I can shunt that'll work.)  A
scale isn't needed, just something I can see a rough idea of the current
on (0% - 100%)  Cheap is good.  I've been looking and must be missing
these.

Looking for a better deal than $10/Watt source of solar cells.  Getting
tired on my 486/586 palmtops, of being held captive by the power cord -
I can cope with scads of tiny cells or larger panels, need to have about
75+ watts worth eventually; some can be small, some have to be larger.
(A source of those cells off small solar-powered calculators would be
nice for some projects - top up batt's on a PIC project daily.)

Replies off-list are probably best.  I'll dump a list of applicable
links to the list if enough people request it, after I find these <G>
(Or maybe to piclist.com.)

 Mark


'[OT]: producing front panels'
2000\07\12@094901 by moshe
flavicon
face
Dear members.
I'm looking for a good way -  to produce a front panels  to my homemade
devices.
I have a laser printer.
Does anyone have experience with that problem.
Thank you .
Moses
Email:.....mosheEraseMEspamgad-univ.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spampiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu>

2000\07\12@101206 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
I use the following methods:

Print out a nice front panel on your laser printer or inkjet printer.  Cut
it to size.

Go to a drafting supply house and get some adhesive backed clear mylar.  You
can also buy this stuff for +ACI-laminating+ACI- at art supply stores.

Using a piece of stickyback mylar larger than your front panel label, stick
it onto your project.  Drill holes where needed.

It's mostly waterproof, smudge resistant, dirt resistant, and cheap+ACE-

-- Lawrence

{Original Message removed}

2000\07\12@103038 by Robert A. LaBudde

flavicon
face
At 09:11 AM 7/12/00 -0500, Lawrence wrote:
>I use the following methods:
>
>Print out a nice front panel on your laser printer or inkjet printer.  Cut
>it to size.
>
>Go to a drafting supply house and get some adhesive backed clear mylar.  You
>can also buy this stuff for +ACI-laminating+ACI- at art supply stores.
>
>Using a piece of stickyback mylar larger than your front panel label, stick
>it onto your project.  Drill holes where needed.
>
>It's mostly waterproof, smudge resistant, dirt resistant, and cheap+ACE-

Two other possibilities:

1. Print the outline directly on the mylar!

2. Print on Press-N-Peel, and iron the toner onto the front panel, similar
to making a PCB. (This method also works for "silkscreening" a PCB after
etching.)

================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: spamral@spam@spamSTOPspamlcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.            URL: http://lcfltd.com/
824 Timberlake Drive                     Tel: 757-467-0954
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239            Fax: 757-467-2947

"Vere scire est per causas scire"
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2000\07\12@103244 by John Walker

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My favorite way is to print the front panel display onto a clear slide,
print it in reverse or mirrored this will keep the toner from wiping off
over time . Then use spray adhesive, I like to use the 3M brand, spray the
front panel with the adhesive and then CAREFULLY lay the slide on top.
Smooth it out and trim it up. Use a knife to cut out the holes and
openings. I have access to a color laser printer which allows for some real
nice looking panels. Good luck.


At 04:27 PM 7/12/00 +0200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\07\12@105551 by Bill Colville

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Date sent:              Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:31:16 -0400
Send reply to:          pic microcontroller discussion list <TakeThisOuTPICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From:                   John Walker <KILLspamjjw.....spamTakeThisOuTSEI.CMU.EDU>
Subject:                Re: [OT]: producing front panels
To:                     TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU

> My favorite way is to print the front panel display onto a clear slide,
> print it in reverse or mirrored this will keep the toner from wiping off
> over time . Then use spray adhesive, I like to use the 3M brand, spray the
> front panel with the adhesive and then CAREFULLY lay the slide on top.
> Smooth it out and trim it up. Use a knife to cut out the holes and
> openings. I have access to a color laser printer which allows for some real
> nice looking panels. Good luck.

I also use this method, although I first print a non-mirrored version
on plain paper and use that as a drilling template. Then you are
sure the mirrored version on the transparency film will be in perfect
alignment. Works great.

Bill

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2000\07\12@111623 by Greg Peyton

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Moses,
One alternative, and I'm a bit ashamed to admit that we do this at work for small test fixtures...It's one of those "that's the way we've always done it" things that I inherited.
I'm sure some of the more experienced guys will read the following with a look of horror on their faces. I look that way myself, every time I have to make a label. It does work though and lasts a long time.

Print out your label on paper, using the laser printer. Include a border around  it. If possible, use a drawing program like autocad (or similar). Precision is a beautiful thing when making labels.

Create a sandwich composed of the following, each piece about .25" to .5" larger than the label outline: 1) plastic sheeting 2) 3M brand 468MP adhesive (we get it on a large roll)
3) label 4) 3M brand 468MP adhesive

I put the adhesive on both sides of the label prior to laying on the plastic. If I goof up I just throw it away. It's easier than peeling the adhesive off the plastic.

I've read how other people use clear plastic when making labels using other techniques. Those techniques probably produce fine results which I won't argue with. For this method I don't like using clear plastic. I think it produces too much glare making the label hard to read. It also makes bubbles look hideous. I prefer .02" lexan plastic. It's got one smooth side, a slightly rougher side (which I have facing out) and is translucent enough to hide small bubbles.

Using a metal straightedge and a xacto knife, cut off edges, at or just inside, the label border.
Be sure you drill all holes that will be covered (such as the locking pin for rotary switch indexes) prior to placing the label. Always debur before placing label.

Drill holes as large as possible as required by label. I finish by using a xacto knife for precision on soft aluminum cases. Be careful of bubbles under the adhesive. We roll them out as we assemble it.
Be very careful when placing the labels. It's a one shot deal as these things can't be adjusted once they bite to the case.
The only other thing I can say is to think about the order of things before you do them. Try to mentally walk through the process to prevent gotchas.

That's the gist of it. I hope this was as amusing as it was educational.

-Greg

Greg Peyton
Metrology Lead Technician
Tempo
(760)598-8900 x293
spamgpeytonKILLspamspamKILLspamtempocomm.com
http://www.tempocomm.com

>>> moshe<spammoshespam_OUTspamGAD-UNIV.COM> 07/12/00 07:27AM >>>
Dear members.
I'm looking for a good way -  to produce a front panels  to my homemade
devices.
I have a laser printer.
Does anyone have experience with that problem.
Thank you .
Moses
Email:STOPspammoshespam_OUTspamspamBeGonegad-univ.com
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2000\07\12@111844 by Dan Michaels

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face
Moshe wrote:
>Dear members.
>I'm looking for a good way -  to produce a front panels  to my homemade
>devices.
>I have a laser printer.
>Does anyone have experience with that problem.


One thing you can do is go out and get a laminator from your
local office supply place - Office Max, etc - and laminate the
laser printer output. About $50 for the heat kind, which works
better than the non-heat kind.

Heat lamination makes a nice rugged label. Trim the edges with
an exacto knife. Unfortunately trimming does allow water/etc
to leak into the edges of the label - [haven't solved this one
yet].

BTW, you can also hand-laminate non-heat type labels, but this
is not as good as the heat type laminator. Also, non-heat laminating
does *not* work well with inkjet paper, which has a special
surface coating - the laminate wrinkles up when you glue down
the final label - depending on the glue.

best regards,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
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2000\07\12@151402 by Ralph & Helene

picon face
Hi all-

This is a very timely topic for me as I need to do this right now. -
Wondering if anyone has a good way to print a circular format for a pot on a
front panel??

Also, what's the best way to print a mirror image -egami rorrim  - no that
doesn't work :-)

Thanks,

Ralph
{Original Message removed}

2000\07\12@151953 by Andrew Kunz

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>Also, what's the best way to print a mirror image -egami rorrim  - no that
>doesn't work :-)

Should be a property you can change on the printer, if you're using WIndows.
Not all printers have the property, but all the latest HP inkjet drivers do.

Andy

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2000\07\12@171850 by Lawrence Lile

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If you are using AutoCad or some other real cad package Mirroring or making
some funny shape is a cinch.  If you are using PC paint, MS word, or some
other art or text based program then good luck.
If you don't have a CAD package, there are some out there for as little as
$20 with minimal functionality.

-- lawrence Lile

{Original Message removed}

2000\07\12@172111 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
moshe wrote:
>
> Dear members.
> I'm looking for a good way -  to produce a front panels  to my homemade
> devices.
> I have a laser printer.
> Does anyone have experience with that problem.
> Thank you .
> Moses
> Email:@spam@mosheEraseMEspamspamgad-univ.com
>
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I have done them this way in the past.

Celcast ST300 adhesive backed photocopier film.
Print artwork on laser printer.
If you like, you can paint the face plate a bright colout like yellow or
lime green which gives the artwork a good contrast.
Print in negative (laser copier only) and the text becomes the bright
color on a matt black finish.
Line the artwork holes with the front panel holes and carefully stick
the film to the panel. Smooth out any air bubbles.
Fold about 1cm of the film over the edges and stick to the rear of the
panel.
Use a round needle file and pierce the film where the holes are and
lightly rub the file on the outer surface of the face plate holes to
remove the film at these points. This makes a neat hole without damaging
the film.

--
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Tony

mICro's
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2000\07\12@200156 by Bill Colville

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Date sent:              Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:05:42 -0700
Send reply to:          pic microcontroller discussion list <TakeThisOuTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
From:                   Ralph & Helene <spam_OUT2pilotsspamspam.....MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject:                Re: [OT]: producing front panels
To:                     PICLIST.....spam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

I use Paint Shop Pro for both.

Bill

{Quote hidden}

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2000\07\12@200811 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 12:05 PM 7/12/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi all-
>
>This is a very timely topic for me as I need to do this right now. -
>Wondering if anyone has a good way to print a circular format for a pot on a
>front panel??
>

See http://www.speff.com for an example of a nonlinear circular dial
created in Postscript and modified in Adobe Illustrator. You can print
from Illustrator into any old kind of printer (inkjet, laser, color laser)
it doesn't have to be a Postscript printer.

Creating dials parametrically is a time saver, but you could do the same
thing manually in Adobe Illustrator. It's the best program, IMHO, but
a bit $$$.

Best regards,
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeff.....spaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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2000\07\13@230100 by Damon Hopkins

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face
Ralph & Helene wrote:
> Also, what's the best way to print a mirror image -egami rorrim  - no that
> doesn't work :-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ralph
you could flip it horizontally in most paint type programs


               Damon Hopkins

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2000\07\13@235219 by Mark Willis

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face
Ralph & Helene wrote:
> Also, what's the best way to print a mirror image -egami rorrim  - no that
> doesn't work :-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ralph

I just use a PCB Cad package and have that package flip it - they're
usually QUITE good at this sort of thing <G>

 Mark

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2000\07\13@235718 by David Huisman

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While on the topic of front panels.

Would someone please recommend a good source in Australia of the Dynalabel
(or 3M) type material that is photosensitive to enable label production
using laser printer and developer.

Regards

David Huisman

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2000\07\14@051344 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Ralph & Helene wrote:
>This is a very timely topic for me as I need to do this right now. -
>Wondering if anyone has a good way to print a circular format for a pot
>on a front panel??

>Also, what's the best way to print a mirror image -egami rorrim  - no
>that doesn't work :-)

Use a CAD program. Perhaps a free/evaluation one if this is a first time
project. I think that Win95 paint allows you to select and mirror a
bitmap. Potentiometer scales are best drawn using a CAD program using
sub-drawings (is this the proper name) and then doing a macro to rotate
and print the line at each required angle position. Lacking that, do it by
hand in a paint program. Draw the circle or sector then another outside it
and in the 2nd your tick marks. Then copy, paste, rotate, inscribe each
tick mark onto the empty circle. This takes a while ;-). You can also use
a programming language (even BASIC) to generate a Post Script image from
the maths. Post Script is the way to go here imho. It supports infinite
scaling and other goodies and it is very good at rotating text and
sub-pictures.

Peter

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2000\07\14@051352 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Dan Michaels wrote:
>Heat lamination makes a nice rugged label. Trim the edges with
>an exacto knife. Unfortunately trimming does allow water/etc
>to leak into the edges of the label - [haven't solved this one
>yet].

Solution: buy transparent children's paper glue and apply with cotton swab
around edges. I did that ;). You need to try serveral glue types because
some go yellowish within days.

Peter

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2000\07\14@092222 by Gary Tompkins

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I use silk screening to produce professional looking panels.

Its really quite a simple and fast process, easy enough even for a "one of a
kind" application.

Most local art and hobby supply will have everything you need to create the
screen and transfer the image. Total cost should be under $40~$50 US. This
will provide you with enough materials do make several screen images or many
(100's) of copies of the same image.

If anyone would like details on how to go about creating the screens, Just
Ask. There's really no Voodoo involved and you don't need any special skills
or equipment to accomplish the task.

Gary

{Original Message removed}

2000\07\14@113458 by Dan Michaels

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face
Peter L. Peres wrote:
>Dan Michaels wrote:
>>Heat lamination makes a nice rugged label. Trim the edges with
>>an exacto knife. Unfortunately trimming does allow water/etc
>>to leak into the edges of the label - [haven't solved this one
>>yet].
>
>Solution: buy transparent children's paper glue and apply with cotton swab
>around edges. I did that ;). You need to try serveral glue types because
>some go yellowish within days.
>

Tried cyanoacrylate, by any chance?

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2000\07\14@113507 by Dan Michaels

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Gary Tompkins wrote:
>I use silk screening to produce professional looking panels.
.......
>

Does this work well with ABS plastic? If, so what type of paint
do you use?  I once asked Pac-Tec what was a good paint to use
with ABS, but they just told me to try various kinds till I
found something that worked. [thanks a lot, P-T, ....].

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2000\07\14@120820 by Mitchell D. Miller

picon face
> I use silk screening to produce professional looking panels.

Can this same technique be used to silk screen onto homemade PCBs and/or
apply solder paste?

-- Mitch

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2000\07\14@123307 by M. Adam Davis

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I was researching that a little earlier.  You can get *very* fine screens for
silkscreening (on the order of 800 threads per inch) which I decided was enough
to give me at least 1/100th of an inch of resolution (perfect for most PCB
projects), and larger screen printing supply places have etch resist ink meant
for PCB silkscreening.

I've heard of people using silkscreen to apply solder paste for SMT components
prior to a pick-n-place machine and oven, but I've not dealt with solder paste.
I imagine you'd need a fine paste and a coarse screen.

If you are a small business that has a few boards that you produce in large
quantities, silk screen printing may be the way to go, since you are probably
going to silkscreen the topside and solder mask anyway.

The last glitch in the whole process is plated through holes.  If the chemicals
were available, it wouldn't be too bad, but the process is still rather
involved:

Drill
Screen print a plating resist
Plate
Clean off plating resist
Screen print an etch resist
Etch
Clean off resist
Screen print a solder mask
Tin plate exposed copper
Screen print the overlay

I can see myself deciding that my time is worth more than what it would cost to
have a professional shop do it for me.

But for simple kit projects, one side, tin plated (no solder mask), and part
placement overlay, this would probably be cheaper for medium quantities than a
PCB house.

-Adam

"Mitchell D. Miller" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\07\15@011112 by David Covick

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I've used PhotoEZ for panels.  You expose it just like a circuit board.

http://www.cbridge.com/

Works good for small needs and one should use their fine mesh screen for
best results.

David


----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Tompkins <garyspamspamTakeThisOuTATRBIOTECH.COM>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: producing front panels


> I use silk screening to produce professional looking panels.
>
> Its really quite a simple and fast process, easy enough even for a "one of
a
> kind" application.
>
> Most local art and hobby supply will have everything you need to create
the
> screen and transfer the image. Total cost should be under $40~$50 US. This
> will provide you with enough materials do make several screen images or
many
> (100's) of copies of the same image.
>
> If anyone would like details on how to go about creating the screens, Just
> Ask. There's really no Voodoo involved and you don't need any special
skills
> or equipment to accomplish the task.
>
> Gary
>
> {Original Message removed}

2000\07\15@113533 by V sml

picon face
All ears here, Gary.

How easy would it be to modify or correct the print on panel after
silk screen?  For project work, it is good to have the ability to
change without incurring high cost.

Gary Tompkins wrote:


>I use silk screening to produce professional looking panels.

>Its really quite a simple and fast process, easy enough even for a
"one of a
kind" application.

>Most local art and hobby supply will have everything you need to
create the
screen and transfer the image. Total cost should be under $40~$50 US.
This
will provide you with enough materials do make several screen images
or many
(100's) of copies of the same image.

If anyone would like details on how to go about creating the screens,
Just
Ask. There's really no Voodoo involved and you don't need any special
skills
or equipment to accomplish the task.

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2000\07\16@135134 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>Tried cyanoacrylate, by any chance?

Of coarse. Bad idea. White fogging everywhere (hard to remove), cyano
heats up tremendously when soaking into slightly humid paper or
cellulose and causes the lamination to thicken at the edge. Also stinks
and you can have a front panel permanently attached to your hand in no
time at all. I tried slow and fast cyano. The fast one was Zap and results
as above. The slow one took days to dry so you had a choice to attach the
panel to your hand later, if you wanted.

Peter

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2000\07\16@212303 by Dan Michaels

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Peter Peres wrote:
>>Tried cyanoacrylate, by any chance?
>
>Of coarse. Bad idea. White fogging everywhere (hard to remove), cyano
>heats up tremendously when soaking into slightly humid paper or
>cellulose and causes the lamination to thicken at the edge.
........
>

Peter,

Good to know about the fogging - I never liked that stuff anyways.
Better living thru chemistry.

We make labels by heat laminating laser printer output inside a
clear plastic pouch [std lam stuff, not sure what it's made of],
and would be nice to find something that would seal the label
edges after trimming.

Also, got any idea what glue sticks well to ABS plastic?
Been using GOOP, after trying many others, and like it a lot.
Not all that messy, sticks well, and you can easily bead up
and rub off any excess with your finger after gooping. Also,
doesn't "melt" the label or the ABS, like some.

Also, any experience painting ABS? Know of a good paint
for this material?

Thanks,
- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
==========================

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2000\07\17@002641 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>Also, got any idea what glue sticks well to ABS plastic?
>Been using GOOP, after trying many others, and like it a lot.
>Not all that messy, sticks well, and you can easily bead up
>and rub off any excess with your finger after gooping. Also,
>doesn't "melt" the label or the ABS, like some.


I use PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate) wood-working grade (ie the "strongest" that I
can find) to stick labels to ABS with good results.
Be aware that  PVA comes in a range of grades and dilutions.
YMMV



               Russell McMahon

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2000\07\17@112715 by Dan Michaels

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face
Russell McMahon wrote:
.....
>>doesn't "melt" the label or the ABS, like some.
>
>
>I use PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate) wood-working grade (ie the "strongest" that I
>can find) to stick labels to ABS with good results.
>Be aware that  PVA comes in a range of grades and dilutions.
>YMMV
>

Does not this stuff "melt" plastic?

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2000\07\17@113750 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Michaels [SMTP:KILLspamoricomKILLspamspamspamBeGoneLYNX.SNI.NET]
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 4:27 PM
> To:   spamBeGonePICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject:      Re: [OT]: producing front panels
>
> Russell McMahon wrote:
> .....
> >>doesn't "melt" the label or the ABS, like some.
> >
> >
> >I use PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate) wood-working grade (ie the "strongest"
> that I
> >can find) to stick labels to ABS with good results.
> >Be aware that  PVA comes in a range of grades and dilutions.
> >YMMV
> >
>
> Does not this stuff "melt" plastic?
>
PVA is a water based adhesive.  It does not melt any plastics that I know
of.

Cheers

Mike

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2000\07\17@162606 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Special paint for ABS exists, also special glue. Everything related to ABS
glue and paint is industrial use only because it needs solvents to locally
dissolve the ABS so it can bond with it. The solvents are evil
environmantally, and none of these substances can be bought in stores for
normal mortals afaik (plus the minimum quantities are in the 1 litre
range). Believe me, you don't want to smell any one of these. There are
labels on the cans according to which they should only be opened in outer
space, of farther away, to be safe.

For label adhesive, I don't know GOOP but the well known hot melting glue
ground to dust (actually bought as flakes) and applied with heat (120 deg.
C through the label) works and is chemically inert. Needs a hot jig
(copper plate with handle held on electric heater will do. Use Teflon
sheet to avoid sticking). A cold-apply label type can be bought from the
pharmacy. It is designed to withstand most liquids without coming off
(think mislabeled medicine bottle ?). It can be printed with a laser
printer. Perhaps laminating only one side of this after printing (with the
backing on) will do what you need.

In general roughened ABS (sandblasted) will accept most metal and plastic
paints as well as silkscreening. Smooth ABS won't.

imho laminating and then cutting the edges to trim is a waste on
lamination. Perhaps you can laser-print a mirror image directly on the
backing of the lamination foil (BUT CHECK WITH THE PRINTER - I suspect
that a printer full of lamination foil will result). I use a bubblejet for
similar results without the fuss (heat, warping) by printing a mirror
image on transparent bubble jet paper (expensive, 3M, others). Then I tack
the sheet on, printed side inside. I suppose one could laminate it
directly, as the tacky side seems to be thermoplastic.

imho a good bubblejet beats most 'home' lasers for this. You can buy a 720
dpi printer for ~$200 now. I have used 300dpi to do 15 mil traces with no
great problems (photoresist exposure). A 720 dpi laser will set you back
at least 3 times that much. An Epson will do a stunning 1440 dpi color
rendition on transparent foil (need to fuss with the colors and saturation
though). Bubble supplies (ink bottle) are cheaper than lasers by a LOONG
way. Just pick a well-proven one with little vertical and
horizontal jitter in the mechanism.

Peter

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2000\07\25@124027 by Andre Abelian

picon face
I use 24 inch Roland plotter that can cut a vinyl. I made lots of signs with
it for
windows, car, home made devices that I need quick text on it.


Andre Abelian



> Russell McMahon wrote:
> .....
> >>doesn't "melt" the label or the ABS, like some.
> >
> >
> >I use PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate) wood-working grade (ie the "strongest"
that I
{Quote hidden}

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'[OT]: producing front panels'
2000\08\02@030256 by -1?Q?Jerko_Golubovi=E6?=
picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph & Helene <2pilots@spam@spamKILLspamMEDIAONE.NET>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTRemoveMEspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: producing front panels


> Hi all-
>
> This is a very timely topic for me as I need to do this right now. -
> Wondering if anyone has a good way to print a circular format for a pot on
a
> front panel??

270 degrees, usually.

>
> Also, what's the best way to print a mirror image -egami rorrim  - no that
> doesn't work :-)
>

Mirror image?

Using PostScript - easy.
Save as PostScript using PS compatibile printer driver then use PSTools to
mirror (PSTools exist for Linux and are GPL, no knowledge if they are
compiled for Windows - you can do that with Cygnus compiler). After that use
GhostScript to render output. Metrics will be preserved (PostScript is
proffesionnal format and there is no way it screws up such things).

Using Windows - hard one.
If your application supports mirroring - select it (think Corel does).
Otherwise, go through PosttScript as suggested.
Fact is that Windows printing system is brain-dead (*most* of drivers do not
even support all system functions - PolygonFill method is example) and
sometimes it is even difficult to get proper metrics (trust me, I did have
lot of horror with that).

I rather use PostScript and then directly render for target printer with
GhostScript. Takes a lot of time and resources but results are excellent.

Jerko Golubovic
9A6JGJ

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'[PICLIST] [EE] LCD Panel pinout?'
2000\12\21@183556 by hgraf
picon face
    Hello I was wondering if anybody could help me get the following LCD
panel working (with a PIC of course!). Markings on it:

Seiko I F2426 DA

It has four major chips on it, three SED1600F (segment drivers I think) and
one SED1610F (column driver I think. It has a 12 pin header. 8 of those pins
seem to be routed together so I assume this means it is an 8 bit data bus.
The other 4 pins are a mystery though. I'm sure I might be able to figure
out which two are for power but the other 2 I have no clue, latch perhaps?
Clock? Anyways, any help with this would be most appreciated. I have
searched the web but have come up with nothing. TTYL

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2000\12\22@121134 by David Lions

flavicon
face
From the description it sounds like a graphic LCD with drivers but not a
controller.  The other 4 pins will be:
pixel shift clock,
line clock,
frame clock, and
M, which is toggled on every frame clock to ensure pixels are driven with
AC.
The 8 bits are pixel data

Someone has driven such a display with a PIC.  I dug up this link,
http://www.ednmag.com/reg/1998/021698/04di.cfm, which is no longer active.
Useful eh?  Anyway it was a weather machine of some kind.  I had a go at
this once, gave up.


{Original Message removed}

2000\12\22@143339 by hgraf

picon face
> From the description it sounds like a graphic LCD with drivers but not a
> controller.  The other 4 pins will be:
> pixel shift clock,
> line clock,
> frame clock, and
> M, which is toggled on every frame clock to ensure pixels are driven with
> AC.
> The 8 bits are pixel data

    Hmm, all of a sudden this display is looking less and less useful! :(
Would you know where I could find data sheets for the chips? I tried Epson
but they don't have them any more. Do you think it's even worth me pursuing
this? I bought it for $5 for a surplus place in the hopes of using it so it
wouldn't be the end of the world if nothing came out of it. The only
question I have is that you don't mention any source of power, are these
displays powered through the clock lines or something? Thanks, TTYL

> Someone has driven such a display with a PIC.  I dug up this link,
> http://www.ednmag.com/reg/1998/021698/04di.cfm, which is no longer active.
> Useful eh?  Anyway it was a weather machine of some kind.  I had a go at
> this once, gave up.
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2000\12\22@172711 by rottosen

flavicon
face
David and Herbert:
I put some graphic LCD information on my personal Web page at:
http://www.idcomm.com/personal/ottosen/

Look under "Display large characters on a graphic LCD" for the details.
You will find out how I drove the display using a SX microcontroller as
well as some data sheets on graphic LCD panels.


--Rich



David Lions wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}


'[OT]: Waterproof 2.5mm audio panel sockets'
2001\06\12@052745 by ISO-8859-1?Q?Ruben_J=F6nsson?=
flavicon
face
Hello,

Is there anybody that knows where I can find panel sockets for
2.5/3.5 mm Audio plugs that are waterproof (IP54 or above).


Regards, Ruben




==============================
Ruben Jvnsson
AB Liros Elektronik
Box 9124, 200 39 Malmv, Sweden
TEL INT +46 40142078
FAX INT +46 40947388
STOPspamruben.....spampp.sbbs.se
==============================

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'[OT]: Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change - '
2001\08\01@065024 by Russell McMahon
picon face
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change - aka Global Warming

For the globally concerned :-)

   http://www.ipcc.ch/


_____________________________________

(link provided by Peter Crowcroft)


includes IPCC Special Reports

   The Regional Impacts of Climate Change:
       An Assessment of Vulnerability

   Aviation and the Global Atmosphere

   Methodological and Technological issues in Technology
       Transfer

   Emissions Scenarios

   Land Use, Land Use Change and Forestry

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'[EE]: LCD panel init problems'
2001\10\31@170529 by Jeff DeMaagd
flavicon
face
I have a 2x20 character LCD panel that doesn't seem to want to init properly
on some power-ups.  We do have it and some 4x4 capacitive keypad circuitry
connected to the main board by a fairly scandard type 6" / 15cm long ribbon
cable.  Sometimes it powers up and inits properly, sometimes it displays
garbage.  Once it starts fine, it runs fine until shutdown.  Once garbage,
always garbage until shutdown.  A power cycling might change the situation,
but that is not guaranteed.

Should I try to add some a big bypass cap or check something else?  All the
ICs and the panel seems
to be properly bypassed to me.  I have also tried the power-up timer on the
PIC too, with little change.

Any general recommendations?  Thanks!

Jeff

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2001\10\31@173736 by Simon Stirley

flavicon
face
The datasheet I've got for LCD controllers recommends sending 0x30 three
times before using the display, it doesn't explain what's magic about 30 hex
though ;-)  worth a try I guess ..

HTH, Simon.

> {Original Message removed}

2001\10\31@181925 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Jeff DeMaagd wrote:

> I have a 2x20 character LCD panel that doesn't seem to want to init properly
> on some power-ups.  We do have it and some 4x4 capacitive keypad circuitry
> connected to the main board by a fairly scandard type 6" / 15cm long ribbon
> cable.  Sometimes it powers up and inits properly, sometimes it displays
> garbage.  Once it starts fine, it runs fine until shutdown.  Once garbage,
> always garbage until shutdown.  A power cycling might change the situation,
> but that is not guaranteed.

Usually the times I have those problems is when I don't have big enough
delays - either before first talking to the display(give it time to reset)
and between each command(some commands take a long time to execute).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Bob Blick

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2001\10\31@182452 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
Boy, I have the same problem.  A real showstopper when you go to demonstrate
a prototype.  Usinf SEETRON 2X16 character LCD's.  Anybody got an idea?

--Lawrence

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\31@183809 by Gennette, Bruce

flavicon
face
Hitachi type LCDs are fairly old technology.  Even newer clones faithfully
copy the original timing specifications - which are VERY exacting.

At startup you either have to have the voltage powering the display rise at
a very exact rate, or . . .

Wait until after the chip should have initiallized, then hit it with 3
resets in a row, with the correct pauses for each reset command to be
executed.  After the 3 'reset to 8bit, normal cursor and movement
directions' commands (0x30) you then should set your desired mode(s), turn
off then turn on the display and clear & home the display.  This all takes
less than half a second and ensures a consistent startup.

Bye.

{Original Message removed}

2001\10\31@183827 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 05:22 PM 10/31/01 -0600, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>Boy, I have the same problem.  A real showstopper when you go to demonstrate
>a prototype.  Usinf SEETRON 2X16 character LCD's.  Anybody got an idea?

This is symptomatic of improper timing of signals.
Can you toss some nops into the lowest level routines, and stretch out the
setup and hold times?

It could be bounce and ringing on the cable.
A quick check would be to add a series network of 0.1uF and 120 ohm
resistors to each signal line.
This won't be a perfect match, but it's hard to measure cable impedance
through email :)

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2001\10\31@184016 by Steve Campbell

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face
Are you using it in 4 or 8 bit mode?  4 bit is a little harder to init but
there are many sources for LCD code available.  Check for some sample code
and compare your init code with other's.


{Original Message removed}

2001\10\31@200253 by Jinx

face picon face
> Any general recommendations?  Thanks!
>
> Jeff

I wrote this a little while ago and can't honestly remember if I
optimised the timing routines, but it does work. Compare it
to what you have and see if you get anywhere

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/odometer.html

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2001\10\31@200651 by Jinx

face picon face
> Sometimes it powers up and inits properly, sometimes it displays
> garbage.  Once it starts fine, it runs fine until shutdown

Is it possible you could be right on the edge of the timing limits and it's
a temperature or rise-time thing ?

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2001\10\31@205317 by Jeff DeMaagd

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Campbell <spamBeGoneDigitalTechRemoveMEspamRemoveMEWORLDNET.ATT.NET>

> Are you using it in 4 or 8 bit mode?  4 bit is a little harder to init but
> there are many sources for LCD code available.  Check for some sample code
> and compare your init code with other's.

Actually, I am using 4 bit mode.  The prototype is going to show, I just
delivered it but when it comes back in a couple weeks I will try some of the
tricks made here, namely increasing delays, redoing init three times, etc.

Thank you for everyone's input.

Jeff

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'[EE]: LCD panel init problems'
2001\11\01@081121 by Wollenberg, Frank
flavicon
face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Campbell [@spam@DigitalTechspamBeGonespamWORLDNET.ATT.NET]
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:27 AM
> To: spam_OUTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EE]: LCD panel init problems
>
> Are you using it in 4 or 8 bit mode?  4 bit is a little
> harder to init but
> there are many sources for LCD code available.  Check for
> some sample code
> and compare your init code with other's.
>
>

I'm using LCD in 8 bit mode only. 4 bit has the problem that both the
controlling uC and the LCD controller must be synchronous. LCD modules has
only internal reset circuitry, there's no external reset pin available. So
let us assume:

1)      both uC and LCD module are powered up correctly
2)      uC initialize the LCD module correctly
3)      uC must send 8 bit in two 4bit chunks to the LCD
4)      after the first 4bit, the uC only resets (powering problem, ESD are
what ever)
5)      the uC powers up and will initialize the LCD module

But: the LCD is awaiting the 2nd 4bit chunk, the uC is sending the first
4bit of initialization data.
I don't see, how to synchronize uC and LCD without resetting the LCD module
via a power down/up cycle.

Any ideas ?

Frank

GSP Sprachtechnologie GmbH
Frank Wollenberg
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2001\11\01@091111 by SkinTech

flavicon
face
Frank,

This is the problem that I had some time ago. I discussed it at length with
a rep from Noritake in Frankfurt (spamBeGoneyyoshidaspamnoritake.de). It turned out that
the requirement to have at least 3 reset sequences (hex 30) at
initialisation is to avoid this particular problem. There are still things I
don't understand, for instance, the number of reset sequences could be any
odd number, but not even... Don't ask me why!
At the end I got everything working OK. I use vacuum fluorescent displays
(VFD) but the controller is equivalent to the hitachi types, the display is
LCD compatible, and as far as I know there is no operational difference,
except that the response is much faster and hence the delays are much
shorter then LCD's.

Cheers, Jan Didden

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wollenberg, Frank" <EraseMEF.WollenbergEraseMEspamGSP-BERLIN.DE>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspam_OUTspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EE]: LCD panel init problems


> > {Original Message removed}

2001\11\01@115412 by James Paul

picon face
Frank,

What you say about synchronization may be true, but I've never had
anything like that happen to me, and I use 4 bit mode all the time.
The syncronization comes in by using the handshake signals provided
by the LCD Module (ie strobe).   As far as I can tell, there is no
reason to have the LCD controller and the microcontroller synchronized.
Let me know why you think what you said is true, and I'll definitely
listen.  I'm open to learning new things.  It's just that I've never
heard this before, nor have I experienced it.

                                                Regards,

                                                  Jim








>> {Original Message removed}

2001\11\01@150143 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Do you use the prescribed software init sequence ? If not, then you need
it. Also make sure that you do not send data too fast. I have had garble
happen when I sent data too fast in an application where the ready bit was
not read back. The fast data combined to change the mode of the LCD
somehow.

So when I have this problem, first I slow the data down considerably, and
if that does not help, then I start troubleshooting elsewhere.

hope this helps,

Peter

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2001\11\02@035942 by Wollenberg, Frank

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Peter, James and Jan,

first of all let me say "Thank you for your responses.
I have taken a quick look over that, but no time for a long response.
I'm now out of business, will be back at Wednesday.
Then i will reply.

Best wishes,
Frank

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2001\11\03@054853 by Benjamin Bromilow

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face
I'd recommend doubling all delays, particularly the init delay (30mS is
recommended with most LCD modules to allow the unit to switch on and calm
down). That *should* remove the problem. Then go through one by and one and
put them back to [recommended+10%] delay intervals..... If one of them
causes the problem then fiddle it till it works.
Not very high tech but worked for me in the past.

Ben

{Original Message removed}

2001\11\07@085432 by Wollenberg, Frank

flavicon
face
> This is the problem that I had some time ago. I discussed it
> at length with
> a rep from Noritake in Frankfurt (yyoshidaspam_OUTspamspamnoritake.de). It
> turned out that
> the requirement to have at least 3 reset sequences (hex 30) at
> initialisation is to avoid this particular problem. There are
> still things I
> don't understand, for instance, the number of reset sequences
> could be any
> odd number, but not even... Don't ask me why!

Jan,
Thanks for your reply.
I have not used a LCD in 4bit mode anytime. The problem i've described, was
theoretically (is it?).
I have read the data sheet and it seems for me, that there is no chance to
re-initiate the LCD.
The command "function set" (0x30) is a regular command, which can be send to
the LCD at anytime in two 4bit chunks, 0x3 followed by 0x0.
How can the LCD differentiate between this regular command and the command
as part of an initialisation sequence ?
Furthermore the above initialisation sequence (3 times 0x30) are described
in the data sheet in a context of inproper powerup. In this situation
nothing can be supposed, every flip-flop can be set to any state. A good and
reliable initialisation sequence must the be used. Again my question, how
can the LCD differentiate ... ?

Let me explain this example:
                 uP                                                   LCD
   send MSB of 0x8x (set DDRAM address)         LCD receives 0x8 (MSB of
set DDRAM address)
   uP resets because of whatever                LCD is still working
   uP sends 0x3 (1st part of init sequence)     LCD receives 0x3 as LSB of
DDRAM address
   uP sends 0x3 (2nd part of init sequence)     LCD receives 0x3 as MSB of
fucntion set (8bit)
   uP sends 0x3 (3rd part of init sequence)     LCD receives 0x3 as LSB of
function set
--> uP sends 0x2 (set 4bit i/f)                  LCD receives 0x2 as MSB of
function set (4bit)
   uP sends MSB of 0x2x                         LCD receives 0x2 as LSB
   uP sends LSB of 0x2x (N and F)               LCD receives
0x0/0x04/0x08/0x0c as ????
   and so on

The initialisation sequence has not set the LCD into 4bit mode after the uP
was resetting, the controlling uP and the LCD are still out of sync. Have i
missed something ?
It seems for me that all should be ok if the marked line should not be
executed.

But that's all theory. I've never tested this. What the rep from Noritake
has said is the same as the datasheet explains, but i can't verify this from
my experience. Why any odd number of 0x3 ? It makes no sense for me.

Because i must build the hardware first and then program (and debug) them
(and there is no time for experiments), i have gone the best way and decided
for 8bit mode interface.

Frank

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2001\11\07@092629 by James Paul

picon face
Frank,

First let me say that the choice of 8 bit vs 4 bit is strictly a matter
of personal taste and/or IO pin limitations. Also, in some cases, there
are LCD displays out there that are 4 bit only.  I have some of these and
this is the main reason I use 4 bit interface so much.

Regarding your explanation, I'm not really sure what you're trying to tell
me.  When I power up the LCD/uC combination, The uC initializes first.
Then, when the program starts running, it initializes the LCD.  It does
this starting in 8 bit first.  I send this 3 times.  After that, I change
to 4 bit, and away we go.  If for some reason, the uC freezes or loses
it's place, the watchdog timer will reset the uC and again reinitialize
the LCD in the same manner as before.

Lastly, again I'd say that the problem (or scenario) you speak of could
possibly happen, but I have never experienced it.  And I've been using
LCD's for many years.  Both professionally, and at home in my own projects.
As for why it has to be sent 3 time, and not other numbers is beyond me.
I don't know why that is.  And I guess to me it doesn't really matter.
As long as I can in itialize the LCD and get it to do what I want, I
don't really mind a slightly lengthy and somewhat illogical initialization
sequence.

                                                Regards,

                                                  Jim




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2001\11\07@152946 by Quentin

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"Wollenberg, Frank" wrote:

> The command "function set" (0x30) is a regular command, which can be send to
> the LCD at anytime in two 4bit chunks, 0x3 followed by 0x0.
> How can the LCD differentiate between this regular command and the command
> as part of an initialisation sequence ?
Think of it this way:
0x030 => b'00110000'
Your 4 bit data line is connected to the 4 MSB data lines of the LCD.
The other 4 LSB of the LCD is tied to gnd.
So, when you put the MSB of b'0011' on the LCD there is already b'0000'
on the 4 LSB of the LCD (connected to gnd)
So in actual fact you are sending 8 bit data.
Sending b'0011' and the LCD thinks you are actually sending b'00110000'
After you did this 3 times, you tell the LCD, OK, now we are going to
use 4 bit comms.

Quentin

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2001\11\08@140606 by Wollenberg, Frank

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In response to Quentin [@spam@qscspam_OUTspamICON.CO.ZA]

> Your 4 bit data line is connected to the 4 MSB data lines of the LCD.
> The other 4 LSB of the LCD is tied to gnd.
Correct.

> So, when you put the MSB of b'0011' on the LCD there is
> already b'0000'
> on the 4 LSB of the LCD (connected to gnd)
> So in actual fact you are sending 8 bit data.
> Sending b'0011' and the LCD thinks you are actually sending
> b'00110000'
> After you did this 3 times, you tell the LCD, OK, now we are going to
> use 4 bit comms.
Right, also. But you mean the init sequence after power-up of the LCD.

What i have described is the following situation:
 1. the uP and the LCD has been powered up correctly
 2. the LCD has been initialized by the uP into the 4-bit mode (as you have
explained)
 3. the uP starts sending a command to the LCD, which is 8bit wide, send in
2 chunks of 4bit.
 4. after the first chunk only! the uP is reset (brown-out, ESD or what
ever)
 5. the uP restarts
 6. the uP sends the init sequence (as in item 2)

The LCD doesn't know of the uP-reset. The LCD is getting any 4bit data,
which it must interpret in some (the correct) way. Because the LCD is in
4bit mode, it expects two 4bit chunks.

Frank

GSP Sprachtechnologie GmbH
Frank Wollenberg
HW-Entwicklung
Tel.:   +49 (0)30 769929-78
Fax:    +49 (0)30 769929-12
eMail:  .....f.wollenbergspam.....gsp-berlin.de


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