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'manufacturing costs'
1999\07\14@205155 by Anne Ogborn

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> This is then
> altered by teh cost to manufacture $.02 per component, say $15.42 and $2.9,
> then add the test cost (Around 40% of the manufatured cost (Complete) and
> one can see that the componsnt cost is signifficant. To this assume that


speaking of such - I'm currently involved in my first manufacturing project,
quantity 2k.
What are reasonable costs to figure for:
making a 3"  x 4" 2 layer PCB with vias

inserting 18 pin SOIC

inserting discrete components?

I just need a factor of ten estimate for these

sorry 'bout all the questions from newbie.


--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\07\15@183956 by Mark Walsh

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{Quote hidden}

Annie

A 3" x 4" double sided PCB should cost between $2.00 and $2.50 for the blank
board.

We use a rule of thumb that the manufacturing costs on a hand stuffed and
soldered through hole board runs about $0.05 per pin.  This includes labor
and overhead.  This is a fairly good estimate on 2 pin axial and radial
devices, but high for resistor packs, DIP's and any other devices with
multiple pins per package.  This helps us avoid unpleasant surprises and
builds in a little extra margin for profit when we are calculating projected
costs.

We are just starting to do surface mount with silk screened solder paste,
manual pick and place and a reflow oven.  We don't have any good numbers yet
on our manufacturing costs, but I would like to hear any good rules of thumb
that anyone has.

Good luck on your manufacturing run.

Mark Walsh

1999\07\15@213536 by Dennis Plunkett

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At 16:39 15/07/99 -0000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Sure!
$200 is the basic setup charge that no matter what size run is in use will
incur. As for the costs I see that you indicate 5c per pin. I use a rule of
$0.18 per component for hand placed, for surface mount with machine pick
and place and machine solder paste, you can use $0.02 per component (This
will hcange is only large BGAs etc are on the PWB, if the spread of 2 pin
to mulit pin devices is less than 12 to 1 the cost for placement will
increase to arounf $0.12 per component). If hand pick and place is used
then you can add $0.25 per component! and hand sloder paste is $0.02 per
component.
If you have to load both sides of the board then add a further $6.00 (Yep
that's right)
Again it all comes down to complexity of the board and the numbers to be
madw and the machinery that the manufacturer has.
Note that cheapest is not always best, if you have lost of fine piched
devices then have all this machine loaded placed etc.
You should use a manufacturer that requests test procedures and will test
the cards for you too, as lost of the faults to be found will be process
orientated.

Have fun <G>

Dennis

1999\07\16@185730 by Anne Ogborn

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Thanks to everybody for giving me some manufacturing #'s.


> You should use a manufacturer that requests test procedures and will test
> the cards for you too, as lost of the faults to be found will be process
> orientated.

hmm.. the economics of testing and who pays for rejects seems intimately
related. Obviously I don't want an assembler with the attitude
"we don't know - we put everything in the right place, if it don't work it's you
r problem"
but I wonder just how much testing I can justify on a little 3-4 chip board,
especially since it's not likely to fit easily into digital test equipment,
since it's a half analog/half digital board.


--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
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1999\07\16@220733 by Myke Predko
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>> You should use a manufacturer that requests test procedures and will test
>> the cards for you too, as lost of the faults to be found will be process
>> orientated.
>
>hmm.. the economics of testing and who pays for rejects seems intimately
>related. Obviously I don't want an assembler with the attitude
>"we don't know - we put everything in the right place, if it don't work
it's your problem"
>but I wonder just how much testing I can justify on a little 3-4 chip
board,
>especially since it's not likely to fit easily into digital test equipment,
>since it's a half analog/half digital board.

Annie,

Let the economics of the situation determine how much testing you do.  To do
this, try to create a business case with the information:

Calculate what is the expected defect rate from mechanical (soldering) and
electrical defects.  Both these parameters are available from the card
stuffer and the chip manufacturer.  If they aren't, then source your product
elsewhere.

Solder defects will probably be measured in terms per joint and Time-Zero
Electrical Defects will be in terms per chip.  Summing these values with the
part and pin counts on the board will give you an expected defect rate.

Find out what your customers tolerable Zero-Time defect rate is.  Ideally,
your committed to quality levels from your suppliers will sum up to a value
which is less than what your customer expects.  If this is the case, then no
testing is required...

BUT, before going ahead and making this decision, you have to have
understand what your supplier's guarantee is if they miss their committed
quality levels.  Chances are, you will get this IFF:

1.  You get agreement that the circuits do not exceed any manufacturer
specifications.
2.  The card manufacturer agrees that the Card Physical Design will work
efficiently on their equipment and all parts and processes are qualified
(including repair).

This guarantee must be in writing (handshakes and verbal assurances aren't
worth much on a Friday afternoon when the sky is falling) and include
replacement of the finished product, with shipping to the final customer for
replacement.  This is a powerful inducement for them to get it right -
replacing even one card with this type of arrangement can cost them $100 or
more.

If you can't get this guarantee, then you will have to do some kind of
testing.

If you are looking at high volume (10K Units per month or more), then it
would make a lot of sense for you to have an InCircuit Test (ICT) fixture
built.  Modern ICT fixtures can handle both Analog and Digital I/O and could
probably provide you with a functional test at the same time.  For a board
like yours, you're probably looking at 30 seconds or less of "tool time"
(time spent on the tester and is being used with an operator - you have to
pay for both).

To minimize fixturing costs and tool time, you would probably want a
"multiple up" fixture (ie one that can test four or more cards in parallel,
using the most possible test pins in the machine).

The advantage of the ICT Tester is that the manufacturer has all the
documentation to fix problems kicked out by the machine.

For lower volumes, you could probably design a small functional test
fixture.  This can be done for extremely modest prices ($500 or less) and
can run in 30 seconds or less.  With good documentation, testing could be
passed to the board manufacturer.

To get an idea about what I mean by good, take a look at my "El Cheapo"
programmer at:

http://www.rentron.com

with associated "El Debug" application.  The "El Debug" helps the builder
find and correct problems in their design.

Admittedly, your design is probably a lot more complex, but spending time
coming up with a good debug process will help the card stuffer build a
better product, reduce his costs (which are ultimately yours) and increase
your customer's satisfaction.


Sorry for the (not so) short paper on quality and contract manufacturing,
but maybe that will help you make the right decision for your product.

myke

1999\07\17@025658 by Anne Ogborn

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Thanks Myke -
  I have your "Handbook of Microcontrollers", and have to tell you it's
what's getting me through this project. I'm a software engineer, more
at home with AWT than with hardware, but on this project I'm chief cook
and bottle washer.  Your book helped on my last contract as well, when
I suddenly had to start programming the 8051.

Thanks for the essay on quality & contract manufacture. This is the
first thing I've ever had made, so I'm learning as I go.

My production run is 2000, with several more 2k runs possible if these
sell well. So I can't justify lots of money for testing.
Basicly I can test every component in the board by a couple simple tests.
If something doesn't work, it seems far simpler to let a human figure out why no
t.
Especially since, for this volume, if I get more than a few bad boards
it's probably some process related event - e.g. "that component can't stand the
reflow"

I guess what I don't understand is the role of testing & rework in manufacturing
.

Isn't there some minimum board complexity below which it's cheaper to throw out
the bad boards than to rework them?

>
> Admittedly, your design is probably a lot more complex, but spending time
> coming up with a good debug process will help the card stuffer build a
> better product, reduce his costs (which are ultimately yours) and increase
> your customer's satisfaction.
>

no, my product's only marginally more complicated than that. I have a PIC,
a bucket-brigade sound chip, and an audio amp, and support circuitry.

Thanks again for the essay. I feel a lot more confident talking to manufacturers
about testing now.

--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\07\17@100014 by Myke Predko

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Hi Anne!


>Thanks Myke -
>   I have your "Handbook of Microcontrollers", and have to tell you it's
>what's getting me through this project. I'm a software engineer, more
>at home with AWT than with hardware, but on this project I'm chief cook
>and bottle washer.  Your book helped on my last contract as well, when
>I suddenly had to start programming the 8051.

I'm glad to hear you like the book and got useful information on it.

>Thanks for the essay on quality & contract manufacture. This is the
>first thing I've ever had made, so I'm learning as I go.
>
>My production run is 2000, with several more 2k runs possible if these
>sell well. So I can't justify lots of money for testing.
>Basicly I can test every component in the board by a couple simple tests.
>If something doesn't work, it seems far simpler to let a human figure out
why not.
>Especially since, for this volume, if I get more than a few bad boards
>it's probably some process related event - e.g. "that component can't stand
the
>reflow"

You should *never* hear something like that from a board stuffer - or if you
do, ask them for a part that they guarantee that will survive the reflow
process.  The design and part selection has to be agreed to by all parties
for the best quality of the finished product.

>I guess what I don't understand is the role of testing & rework in
manufacturing.

You should find a manufacturer that is ISO9000 certified (I should have
mentioned this last night) and look at their ISO Plan for how they handle
defective product.  Ideally, they should have a returns process as well as a
quality improvement process to ensure the defect doesn't happen again.  If
it doesn't, then find one that has a returns process.

There are a ton of low-cost manufacturers that are ISO9000 certified - so
this really isn't something that defines a low-cost versus a high-cost
manufacturer.

>Isn't there some minimum board complexity below which it's cheaper to throw
out
>the bad boards than to rework them?

That's a calculation that you will have to make based on the expected
fallout and cost of repairs.

>> Admittedly, your design is probably a lot more complex, but spending time
>> coming up with a good debug process will help the card stuffer build a
>> better product, reduce his costs (which are ultimately yours) and
increase
>> your customer's satisfaction.
>>
>no, my product's only marginally more complicated than that. I have a PIC,
>a bucket-brigade sound chip, and an audio amp, and support circuitry.
>
>Thanks again for the essay. I feel a lot more confident talking to
manufacturers
>about testing now.

No problem - good luck and let us know how you make out,

myke

1999\07\17@100023 by Russell McMahon

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Anne said

>no, my product's only marginally more complicated than that. I have
a PIC,
>a bucket-brigade sound chip, and an audio amp, and support
circuitry.


A REAL bucket brigade chip - I'd be interested in knowing where from?
how much etc?
I recently had someone show me an old design which used one of these
and wanted me to make something similar but better. The chips were
horrendously priced and were unavailable here as well. Nowadays the
tendency would be to use a micro and A2D/D2A etc but for the
application in question the bucket brigade would be ideal.

What's your application? Mine relates to a device for training
therapists who work with people who stutter.



Russell McMahon

1999\07\17@115555 by Jay.R.Vijay-Indra

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Panasonic still makes  Bucket-bridge devices. UK prices in small quantities

       MN3004(15V)             512 STAGE       $5.00
       MN3011(15V)             3328Stage,5Tap  $20.00
       MN3207(5VOLT)           1024Stage       $3.00

       MN3101(15v)             CLOCK GEN/DRI   $0.80
       MN3207(5V)              CLOCK GEN/DRI   $0.80

UK suppliers Rapid Electronics , Maplin

Regards,

Jay




{Quote hidden}

1999\07\18@144409 by Anne Ogborn

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My device is an Information Storage Devices device,

http://www.isd.com/

they hem and haw about "multi-level storage", but to me
it's a bucket brigade type device.

--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\07\18@145449 by Sean H. Breheny

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Well, it is similar,but with a real bucket brigade device, you can "record"
and "playback" at the same time,to provide a continuous delay. How can you
do that with an ISD sound chip?

Sean

At 11:41 AM 7/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
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1999\07\18@192827 by Anne Ogborn

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Sean H. Breheny wrote:
>
> Well, it is similar,but with a real bucket brigade device, you can "record"
> and "playback" at the same time,to provide a continuous delay. How can you
> do that with an ISD sound chip?
>
> Sean

You can't, but I don't know if that's a limitation of the technology
or just the design of the chips.

They clearly expected the chips to be used in "tapeless answering machine"
and pre-recorded sound situations.

--
Anniepoo
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1999\07\18@222115 by Sean H. Breheny

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Hi Annie,

When I hear "bucket brigade device" I think of a low-frequency digital
"delay line" type device,not intended to record and then playback at a
later time. Perhaps the usage is really a bit broader than that,however,as
you say.

I'm not sure where the limitation is. As I understand it, ISD's chips work
like an analog EEPROM,and actually use EEPROM-like cells to store the data.
Perhaps they do some kind of trick (like buffering the sound) to program
the cells which would cause problems with simultaneous read and write.

BTW, I am curious,what does your device do?

Sean


At 04:25 PM 7/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
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1999\07\18@231138 by Anne Ogborn

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Sean H. Breheny wrote:
>
> Hi Annie,
>
> When I hear "bucket brigade device" I think of a low-frequency digital
> "delay line" type device,not intended to record and then playback at a
> later time. Perhaps the usage is really a bit broader than that,however,as
> you say.
>
> I'm not sure where the limitation is. As I understand it, ISD's chips work
> like an analog EEPROM,and actually use EEPROM-like cells to store the data.
> Perhaps they do some kind of trick (like buffering the sound) to program
> the cells which would cause problems with simultaneous read and write.
>
> BTW, I am curious,what does your device do?
>


>From some cryptic reference in ISD's glossies about how they could do this
and their competition couldn't, I suspect they're basicly using a bucket brigade
,
but somehow are keeping the charge in the bucket. Your 'analog EPROM' isn't
Certainly the ISD devices are supposed to keep a sound for long many years.



--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\07\19@131828 by Harold Hallikainen

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On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:41:50 -0700 Anne Ogborn <anniepoospamKILLspamNETMAGIC.NET>
writes:
>My device is an Information Storage Devices device,
>
>http://www.isd.com/
>
>they hem and haw about "multi-level storage", but to me
>it's a bucket brigade type device.
>

       I think of a "bucket brigade type device" as an "analog shift
register" while the ISD appears to be more of an analog EEPROM (which can
be addressed randomly instead of just serially, like a shift register...
In the early 1970's, a couple companies made program automation systems
for radio stations that used looped shift registers for memory.  They
were being continuously clocked and when the clock counter matched the
address register holding the address of the data you were looking for,
the data was captured out of the shift register.  The shift register then
continued on).
       By the way, thanks to those on this list who recommended the ISD
speech chips.  I'm now using them along with a speech library from
Quadravox.  Sounds great!

Harold



Harold Hallikainen
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