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'limits 16c84 ?'
1995\11\15@203734 by Arne Alsvik

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Are the some limits on how many times you can prgaming a 16c84??
I have some problems wit some chips(I can use them,but not enabel to
progaming them)
Arne - norway

1995\11\16@005313 by Newfound Electronics

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>Are the some limits on how many times you can prgaming a 16c84??
>I have some problems wit some chips(I can use them,but not enabel to
>progaming them)
>Arne - norway

Arne,

EEPROM devices have a maximum number of write cycles specified. The Data
EEPROM is rated a 1,000,000 write cycles. The 16C84 program memory I cannot
find specified but it should be at the very least 1000 cycles and more
likely to be 10,000.

Thats a lot of program cycles!

If you cannot program them at all then its not likely to be that the EEPROM
cells have died. I would expect in that case to get a small number of
failures first and not across a number of devices all of a sudden.

Either the chips could be damaged or you programmer is not 100%  Are the
devices that fail a different batch from those that work? The code is on the
bottom line and looks like 9534CBN or 9525 CBA.

Devices from different batch numbers have small differences in programming
time and current consumption etc.

It's hard to guess what is wrong as you haven't provided much detail. Please
let me know the following and maybe I can help more:

Are the failing chips code protected and the working chips not?

Did the chips program before with the same programmer?

What sort of programmer are you using?

The batch number of the failing chips.

I do not believe it's likely you have reached the end of the useful life of
the chips but I don't know for certain.

Regards,

Jim

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1995\11\16@024206 by adrian

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you wrote:

> >Are the some limits on how many times you can prgaming a 16c84??
> >I have some problems wit some chips(I can use them,but not enabel to
> >progaming them)
> >Arne - norway
>
> Arne,
>
> EEPROM devices have a maximum number of write cycles specified. The Data
> EEPROM is rated a 1,000,000 write cycles. The 16C84 program memory I cannot
> find specified but it should be at the very least 1000 cycles and more
> likely to be 10,000.
>
> Thats a lot of program cycles!

The program memory is low endurance EEPROM, and is something like 1000 typ
(I think 100 min). Its not the same as the EEPROM data memory.


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1995\11\16@033509 by Don McKenzie

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On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Arne Alsvik wrote:

> Are the some limits on how many times you can prgaming a 16c84??
> I have some problems wit some chips(I can use them,but not enabel to
> progaming them)
> Arne - norway
>

I re-programmed an 84/04 1000 times without error some months ago as an
experiment and posted the results on the MicroChip BBS. Someone suggested
that I do an erase between burns, (I think it was David Tait?). I then got
4 fails in the next 1000, the first at around the 1300 mark.

As all of this took about 50 hours and I was running a batch file from
DOS and using my hard disk, I decided that the 84 was cheaper than my
hard disk to replace, so I settle for 1000 as being a fair figure.

Mind you, I am still using the same 84 for development, yes the one with
the liquid paper mark on the top, and the same one I have plugged in the
wrong way around at least twice, the one that will run at 8Mhz but not
10Mhz.

If I send you an 84 with a little white mark on the top, be cautious.
:-))

Don...

 Low Cost DIY PCB's for PICs & COM1/LPT1 PC I/O Interface Kits    ;!
 Don McKenzie. 29 Ellesmere Cres., Tullamarine. 3043 Australia    ;@
 Tel +61 3 9338 6286 Mobile  +61 14 672 127 .....donmckKILLspamspam@spam@tbsa.com.au    ;#
 Check My Promo Disk at http://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/~sis/mirror/don/    ;$
 Type: 'finger donmckspamKILLspamtbsa.com.au|more'  for more information.

1995\11\16@185534 by Arne Alsvik

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Thanks to All of You.

A
>
>Either the chips could be damaged or you programmer is not 100%  Are the
>devices that fail a different batch from those that work? The code is on the
>bottom line and looks like 9534CBN or 9525 CBA.
>


The code :9534cbn (problem with

I use the cheap  serial programmer device with one diode 1 capasitor and
three resistors+7805 .I have conect a power supply between the capasitor and
the diode. !!It do not work unless ....WHY ??.

I do sometime use the wrong setings (code protect...)


Three of them are gone ,one left.
I sure of  that  two are working (not able  to erase them.) One can I read ,
and I can verify , but I can not programming them. I am not sure of that it
is the firstly  code I have progammed.



>
>Did the chips program before with the same programmer?
>
YES

And i have testing the programmer with the chip I have left.

>What sort of programmer are you using?

pgr84 pip-2


>I do not believe it's likely you have reached the end of the useful life of
>the chips but I don't know for certain.
>

The program,erase count < 100 , But I can have turn the chip wrong way.

1995\11\17@035833 by Newfound Electronics

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>I use the cheap  serial programmer device with one diode 1 capasitor and
>three resistors+7805 .I have conect a power supply between the capasitor and
>the diode. !!It do not work unless ....WHY ??.

Maybe the diode is the wrong way arround!

>Three of them are gone ,one left.
>I sure of  that  two are working (not able  to erase them.) One can I read ,
>and I can verify , but I can not programming them. I am not sure of that it
>is the firstly  code I have progammed.

>>Did the chips program before with the same programmer?
>>
>YES
>And i have testing the programmer with the chip I have left.

Arne, are you saying it worked?

>
>>What sort of programmer are you using?
>
>pgr84 pip-2


Does anyone have a circuit diagram for this in protel schmatic format?
Failing that what about a gif or jpg file. Can anyone tell me how the 13V is
regulated?

Arne, it is very hard to help or even guess what is wrong. I hope you can
recover some of the chips. To me it sounds that there is something  not
quite right with the programmer. Have you tried to messure Vpp on pin 4? it
should be between 12.5V and 13.5V during programming. Pin 5 is ground.

If it has gone much higher that will destroy a PIC chip quickly. This is the
weakest point on the PICs. If you put it the wrong way around still you
should have a good chance of the PIC surviving.

Also check the Vdd is at 4.75V-5.25V during programming.

You really need  a friend near by with a working programmer to check your
PICs. Why don't you ask on the PICLIST if someone is near by to you.

I would not keep trying to test the PICs until you have measured the
programmer voltage and made sure its ok.

Good luck and please tell us if you find the problem.

Regards


Jim

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