Searching \ for 'help me choose the best emulator' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=help+choose+best
Search entire site for: 'help me choose the best emulator'.

Truncated match.
PICList Thread
'help me choose the best emulator'
2000\04\16@080319 by Sam S Man

flavicon
face
part 0 16 bytes
</x-html>

2000\04\16@100939 by Henrik Nielsen

flavicon
face
part 0 16 bytes
</x-html>

2000\04\16@143452 by Mark Newland

flavicon
face
I did the same research about a year ago and seems like the favorite was
the Mathias.  That is what I got and am very happy with it.

Sam S Man wrote:

> hi all,pls help me choose one out of these three 3rd party
> emulators. 1. ClearView Mathias2. ICE PIC 23. RICE 17 A or suggest me
> one which is even better (in performance and accessories). But not ICE
> 2000 i can't afford it at the moment. i need it within 2 weeks
> time. thanxsamAdvanES

2000\04\16@144957 by MEDICINTEKNIK KB

picon face
I second that

Sven in Sweden

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
FrŒn: Mark Newland <spam_OUTapeTakeThisOuTspamESKIMO.COM>
Till: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Datum: den 16 april 2000 20:34
€mne: Re: help me choose the best emulator


{Quote hidden}

2000\04\16@234617 by V sml

picon face
Hi,

Check this comparison chart up:
http://www.adv-transdata.com/RICE17A_comparison.htm

Note: it is by adv-transdata.

Cheers, Ling SM

>I did the same research about a year ago and seems like the favorite
was
the Mathias.  That is what I got and am very happy with it.

Sam S Man wrote:

> hi all,pls help me choose one out of these three 3rd party
> emulators. 1. ClearView Mathias2. ICE PIC 23. RICE 17 A or suggest
me
> one which is even better (in performance and accessories). But not
ICE
> 2000 i can't afford it at the moment. i need it within 2 weeks
> time. thanxsamAdvanES

2000\04\17@110412 by Jerry Merrill

flavicon
face
Hi:

We (TechTools) also have a comparison chart at:

http://www.tech-tools.com/mat-cc.htm

We try very hard to make our comparison as honest as possible and encourage
feedback on its accuracy.  We are currently updating it to reflect
Transdata's recent price reduction and the fact they now have Data
break-pointing on one of their modules.

We avoid promoting ourselves on the list so I will try to stay as factual
as possible (I'll leave out the superlatives :) ), but I would like to
point out a couple of noticeable errors on the chart referenced below.  I'm
sure they are simple un-intentional oversights, but they are significant.

1. The transdata chart implies that one must buy a new Mathias Family
module with each Member module.  This is incorrect.  The whole idea of our
modular architecture is to separate the functionally of the Family module
(core processor) from the Member module (peripheral functions).  This
allows one to add support for devices within a given core (12bit or 14bit)
for $50 - $200....period.  This is why our chart separates the cost of the
'INITIAL DEVICE SUPPORT' from the 'ADDITIONAL DEVICE' support.  The FAMILY
module is a one-time expense included in the 'INITIAL DEVICE' cost.

It also means that any features or enhancements to a family can be added to
the FAMILY module and they become available to ALL member modules in that
core.  For example, when the newer 14bit core bondout became available from
Microchip a couple of years ago, we offered a new 'ADVANCED FAMILY MODULE'
that incorporated that chip.  Because of the modularity, that one upgrade
instantly upgraded ALL 14 bit devices.  All of the member modules became
operational at full speed and gained Data Break-pointing.

Transdata is using this newer bondout (and offering data breakpoints) on
its newest module only.

2. The chart states our rated speed is 20MHz.  In fact, Mathias operates at
over 30MHz but is limited to 25MHz with current available bondouts.  This
is determined by the SLOWEST device in the system - the BONDOUTs
themselves.  BTW, 25MHz is not a limit because the bondouts operate at the
full rated speed of the production parts.

3. There seems to be some question as to what a 'no-skid' breakpoint is.
By 'no-skid' we mean that our ICE breaks BEFORE executing a code breakpoint
rather than AFTER.  This is important.  If an ICE breaks AFTER executing a
breakpoint, and that breakpoint is set on a JMP/GOTO, SKIP or anything else
that modifies the program counter, you can end up far away from the
instruction that CAUSED the break.  This makes debugging difficult.  Also,
if you are working in C, and you put a breakpoint on a line. You want to
break BEFORE any _part_ of that line executes.  Without 'no-skid'
break-pointing, part of the line executes (the first opcode of the string
of opcodes that make up that source line).  Breaking BEFORE executing the
line is more intuitive and makes debugging easier.  Software debuggers
break BEFORE executing the line. This is more difficult in an ICE, but doable.

In all fairness, it is difficult to make a chart that accurately compares
these two products because of architectural differences and the limited
space available.

1. The RICE17 supports Microchip's 17 series devices; Mathias does NOT.
Because of this difference, the RICE17 MUST allow for memory expansion or
include considerably more memory.  Mathias includes the maximum amount of
memory addressable by the 12 and 14bit devices. Therefore it would not be
fair to say ours is fully populated and theirs requires expansion.  Nor
would it be fair to say theirs is expandable and ours is not.  These are 17
series ONLY issues.
 - If you are doing 17 series parts, Mathias is not a contender.  If you
are doing 12 and/or 14bit parts, memory expansion is irrelevant; both ICEs
include the maximum memory addressable by these devices.

2. The RICE17 uses a single module system for device support.  Mathias uses
a two module (Family and Member) system.  If you are doing a single device
(or group of similar devices) then cost comparisons are simple; compare our
3 board solution (Mathias, Family & Member) to their 2 board solution
(RICE, MODULE) ('INITIAL DEVICE SUPPORT'.)  However, if you intend to do
more than one group of devices, then it is a little more complicated; you
must compare the INITIAL DEVICE support cost PLUS each ADDITIONAL DEVICE
SUPPORT COSTS.

3. The 12 bit and 14 bit core devices have different capabilities.  It is
difficult to note all exceptions in a chart.  These differences are due to
basic bondout differences.  For example, we have DATA BREAKPOINTS, BREAK on
STACK OVERFLOW, BREAK on STACK UNDERFLOW and STACK viewing on ALL 14bit
devices.  NONE of these features are available on 12bit devices(by any
manufacturer).

4. RICE17 has TRACE built-in, but TIMING is optional.  Mathias does NOT
include TRACE, but has two options; 1. Timing only option or 2. TRACE with
TIMING option.

Lastly, the relative importance of each of these points depends a whole lot
on YOUR focus.  Do you wish to emulate a single device or multiple devices?
Do you do 12 AND 14 bit devices? Do you do 17 series?  Do you see the
value of Data break-pointing? Do you see the value of 'no-skid'
breakpoints?  Are the features YOU consider important available on ALL of
the devices you wish to emulate?

An important factor that can not be summarized in a chart is the
intuitiveness of the software.  Does it do WHAT you expect, WHEN you expect
it?  Does its work-flow follow (or adapt) to YOUR way of working?  Only YOU
can answer that!

Download the software from both companies and evaluate that for yourself.

Of course, customer support and company responsiveness are other very
important but intangible factors.

I won't try to comment on the intangibles; just the facts.  I'll let the
group comment on their experiences.

BTW, I did not mark this as [OT] because I think discussions on relative
ICE merits are very much on topic for developers looking to make
investments in PIC tools.


At 10:43 PM 4/16/00 , you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Jerry Merrill

.....jerrymKILLspamspam.....tech-tools.com
http://www.tech-tools.com
FAX: (972) 494-5814
VOICE:(972) 272-9392
TechTools
PO Box 462101
Garland,  TX  75046-2101

2000\04\17@111621 by Andrew Kunz

flavicon
face
Jerry,

That is an excellent summary, and ought to be on your web page as part of the
comparison.

FWIW, I use the "Virtual Mathias" mode frequently to debug code segments on my
laptop, when I don't have access to the Mathias (ie, in the car, on the plane,
etc).  That sure is a handy tool to have, because it supports both the C
compiler and CVASM.

As for responsiveness, I've already been flamed here for telling it like it is.
I'll never go back to AdvTran if I can help it.

Keep on speaking "Grafted-In Texan." <G>

Andy










Jerry Merrill <EraseMEjerrymspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTTECH-TOOLS.COM> on 04/17/2000 11:00:41 AM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>








To:      @spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

cc:      (bcc: Andrew Kunz/TDI_NOTES)



Subject: Re: help me choose the best emulator








Hi:

We (TechTools) also have a comparison chart at:

http://www.tech-tools.com/mat-cc.htm

We try very hard to make our comparison as honest as possible and encourage
feedback on its accuracy.  We are currently updating it to reflect
Transdata's recent price reduction and the fact they now have Data
break-pointing on one of their modules.

We avoid promoting ourselves on the list so I will try to stay as factual
as possible (I'll leave out the superlatives :) ), but I would like to
point out a couple of noticeable errors on the chart referenced below.  I'm
sure they are simple un-intentional oversights, but they are significant.

1. The transdata chart implies that one must buy a new Mathias Family
module with each Member module.  This is incorrect.  The whole idea of our
modular architecture is to separate the functionally of the Family module
(core processor) from the Member module (peripheral functions).  This
allows one to add support for devices within a given core (12bit or 14bit)
for $50 - $200....period.  This is why our chart separates the cost of the
'INITIAL DEVICE SUPPORT' from the 'ADDITIONAL DEVICE' support.  The FAMILY
module is a one-time expense included in the 'INITIAL DEVICE' cost.

It also means that any features or enhancements to a family can be added to
the FAMILY module and they become available to ALL member modules in that
core.  For example, when the newer 14bit core bondout became available from
Microchip a couple of years ago, we offered a new 'ADVANCED FAMILY MODULE'
that incorporated that chip.  Because of the modularity, that one upgrade
instantly upgraded ALL 14 bit devices.  All of the member modules became
operational at full speed and gained Data Break-pointing.

Transdata is using this newer bondout (and offering data breakpoints) on
its newest module only.

2. The chart states our rated speed is 20MHz.  In fact, Mathias operates at
over 30MHz but is limited to 25MHz with current available bondouts.  This
is determined by the SLOWEST device in the system - the BONDOUTs
themselves.  BTW, 25MHz is not a limit because the bondouts operate at the
full rated speed of the production parts.

3. There seems to be some question as to what a 'no-skid' breakpoint is.
By 'no-skid' we mean that our ICE breaks BEFORE executing a code breakpoint
rather than AFTER.  This is important.  If an ICE breaks AFTER executing a
breakpoint, and that breakpoint is set on a JMP/GOTO, SKIP or anything else
that modifies the program counter, you can end up far away from the
instruction that CAUSED the break.  This makes debugging difficult.  Also,
if you are working in C, and you put a breakpoint on a line. You want to
break BEFORE any _part_ of that line executes.  Without 'no-skid'
break-pointing, part of the line executes (the first opcode of the string
of opcodes that make up that source line).  Breaking BEFORE executing the
line is more intuitive and makes debugging easier.  Software debuggers
break BEFORE executing the line. This is more difficult in an ICE, but doable.

In all fairness, it is difficult to make a chart that accurately compares
these two products because of architectural differences and the limited
space available.

1. The RICE17 supports Microchip's 17 series devices; Mathias does NOT.
Because of this difference, the RICE17 MUST allow for memory expansion or
include considerably more memory.  Mathias includes the maximum amount of
memory addressable by the 12 and 14bit devices. Therefore it would not be
fair to say ours is fully populated and theirs requires expansion.  Nor
would it be fair to say theirs is expandable and ours is not.  These are 17
series ONLY issues.
 - If you are doing 17 series parts, Mathias is not a contender.  If you
are doing 12 and/or 14bit parts, memory expansion is irrelevant; both ICEs
include the maximum memory addressable by these devices.

2. The RICE17 uses a single module system for device support.  Mathias uses
a two module (Family and Member) system.  If you are doing a single device
(or group of similar devices) then cost comparisons are simple; compare our
3 board solution (Mathias, Family & Member) to their 2 board solution
(RICE, MODULE) ('INITIAL DEVICE SUPPORT'.)  However, if you intend to do
more than one group of devices, then it is a little more complicated; you
must compare the INITIAL DEVICE support cost PLUS each ADDITIONAL DEVICE
SUPPORT COSTS.

3. The 12 bit and 14 bit core devices have different capabilities.  It is
difficult to note all exceptions in a chart.  These differences are due to
basic bondout differences.  For example, we have DATA BREAKPOINTS, BREAK on
STACK OVERFLOW, BREAK on STACK UNDERFLOW and STACK viewing on ALL 14bit
devices.  NONE of these features are available on 12bit devices(by any
manufacturer).

4. RICE17 has TRACE built-in, but TIMING is optional.  Mathias does NOT
include TRACE, but has two options; 1. Timing only option or 2. TRACE with
TIMING option.

Lastly, the relative importance of each of these points depends a whole lot
on YOUR focus.  Do you wish to emulate a single device or multiple devices?
Do you do 12 AND 14 bit devices? Do you do 17 series?  Do you see the
value of Data break-pointing? Do you see the value of 'no-skid'
breakpoints?  Are the features YOU consider important available on ALL of
the devices you wish to emulate?

An important factor that can not be summarized in a chart is the
intuitiveness of the software.  Does it do WHAT you expect, WHEN you expect
it?  Does its work-flow follow (or adapt) to YOUR way of working?  Only YOU
can answer that!

Download the software from both companies and evaluate that for yourself.

Of course, customer support and company responsiveness are other very
important but intangible factors.

I won't try to comment on the intangibles; just the facts.  I'll let the
group comment on their experiences.

BTW, I did not mark this as [OT] because I think discussions on relative
ICE merits are very much on topic for developers looking to make
investments in PIC tools.


At 10:43 PM 4/16/00 , you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Jerry Merrill

KILLspamjerrymKILLspamspamtech-tools.com
http://www.tech-tools.com
FAX: (972) 494-5814
VOICE:(972) 272-9392
TechTools
PO Box 462101
Garland,  TX  75046-2101

2000\04\17@225313 by V sml

picon face
>We (TechTools) also have a comparison chart at:
http://www.tech-tools.com/mat-cc.htm

The chart was done at 9-1-98.

Cheers,  Ling SM

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2000 , 2001 only
- Today
- New search...