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'cats! -Reply'
1999\09\10@063711 by Kevin Allenzovic

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This sounds a little impossible as AC would alternately contract and release your muscles forcing you to release it! This is one of the reasons we have AC supplied to our home and not DC, among ather obvious reasons.
Edison pushed for the use of AC by demonstrating on a horse. He'd fist hit it with AC and watch it bolt. When caught he'd again shcok it with DC killing it stone dead.



>>> Peter van Hoof <spam_OUTpvhTakeThisOuTspamVERTONET.COM> 10/September/1999 12:16pm >>>
This depends very much on circumstances sometimes defying logic or
explanation
as a teenager I grabbed the two poles of a 3kg heavy neon transformer...7kv
@100ma...
you would assume since current flowed from hand to hand, path over the chest
this should be deadly..... it was not. I did not manage to release the poles
but after about 15 seconds managed to kick the plug out of the outlet.

I survived , shaken , but unharmed.

Peter van Hoof
-------------
.....pvhKILLspamspam@spam@vertonet.com
http://go.to/pvh

[snip]
{Quote hidden}

1999\09\10@070011 by Peter van Hoof

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I cannot really recommend you do an experiment to confirm this or prove me
wrong but.... I could not let go. Ask others with similar experience about
it

Your muscles are just not fast enough to release a whole hand in this short
time.

Peter

> This sounds a little impossible as AC would alternately contract
> and release your muscles forcing you to release it! This is one
> of the reasons we have AC supplied to our home and not DC, among
> ather obvious reasons.
> Edison pushed for the use of AC by demonstrating on a horse. He'd
> fist hit it with AC and watch it bolt. When caught he'd again
> shcok it with DC killing it stone dead.

1999\09\10@073641 by Dag Bakken

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...and if they are fast enough, a contracted (but released) muscle
needs another muscle to contract so that the released muscle can
extend.  A muscle only works one way.

-DS


PvH> Your muscles are just not fast enough to release a whole hand in this short
PvH> time.

>> This sounds a little impossible as AC would alternately contract
>> and release your muscles forcing you to release it!

1999\09\10@090721 by paulb

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Sean H. Breheny wrote:

> Paul, didn't you really mean that to be a positive statement? Like: "I
> find it quite LIKELY",etc.  It seems like that from the rest of the
> sentence.

 You are of course dead(!) right Sean.  My intent was a double
neagative, viz:

>>  I find it quite unlikely that at that (open-circuit) voltage, it
>> would *not* deliver its full current limit, since it would easily arc
>> *through* any skin resistance

 Someone was really getting my goat, as she so often does, while I was
trying to write that and get back to work quickly!

Kevin Allenzovic wrote:

> Edison pushed for the use of AC by demonstrating on a horse.  He'd
> fist hit it with AC and watch it bolt.  When caught he'd again shock
> it with DC killing it stone dead.

 You are of course aware that Edison cheated slightly by using about
five times as much DC as AC voltage?  And a few *other* similarly minor
details.  I believe he also studied conjuring...
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\09\10@103836 by John Pfaff

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IIRC, the main reason we use AC instead of DC is the lower cost of
transmission.  I believe it was Edison that pushed for DC, because it was
safer.  Westinghouse and Tesla pushed for AC because of transformers and
motors.  Edison pointed to the fact that AC was used for executions, so it
is inherently dangersous.  All of this is from memory, so if I'm full of it,
someone please correct me.

{Original Message removed}

1999\09\10@105906 by Dan Tye

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Tesla was the "father" of AC and also, as it happened, Edison's
assistant during the time Tesla was formulating the use of AC.  Since
Edison believed strongly in the use and distribution of DC to the
masses, a rift developed between the two men which would never be
resolved.  If Edison had had his way, every small neighborhood would
have had its own DC power generating station (since DC can't be
transported over distance).  This is the version of history I am
familiar with anyway....

{Original Message removed}

1999\09\10@112357 by Andy Kunz

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>resolved.  If Edison had had his way, every small neighborhood would
>have had its own DC power generating station (since DC can't be
>transported over distance).  This is the version of history I am
>familiar with anyway....

At one point, Tesla was honored and presented with an award....
... named for Edison!

Andy

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1999\09\10@120012 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Reasons for AC selection involves sync motors, transformers, and long
range distribution, but I think the strongest reason is the fact that AC
(polarity reversing) does not generate electrolisys at different metal
junctions, so far it avoids chemical alteration and electrical terminals
destruction.

Both AC and DC avoids metal oxydation.  If in use, you can't find a
circuit braker or wire connector with oxydation.  Temperature caused by
bad contact can alter the metal composition, but it is not attacked by
air oxygen in regular use.  It can be oxydated if left unused or
disconnected.

Studies show that nature use only DC charges, even our body generate
DC.  Deep studies show that an atom is in real an AC polarization
generator, that turns to be DC when in use by the charge flow.  The "AC"
characteristics of the atom is what makes it stable and balanced.  This
AC oscillation is caused by the orbital electrons, with harmonics
because electrons spin.  A material could be identified by its atomic AC
characteristics, since its atomic construction is specific, such
electron layers, cycle timmings (frequencies), harmonics and so on.

So the Star Track Mr. Spock's pocket substance identification is not
absurd as many think it is,  Equipments as X-ray fluorescence (XRF) that
can identify more than 225 alloys, or the Atomic Absorbtion
Spectroscopy, or general Spectrometer procedures could be easily
replaced in the future by a simple Radio Frequency Receiver tunned and
searching for known atomic patterns, as well Dr. McCoy personal health
pocket scanner could search for RF patterns that only certain diseases
and body disturbances could generate.  We should always remember that
expensive fiction movies have scientists and astronomers hired to be
fiction consultants. It is somehow easy to identify cheap movies by its
poor and silly fictioned technology.

I don't follow this technology thread for long, but I believe that GHz
communication technology should take in consideration this atomic
interation and frequencies when selecting metals for antenas and
conductors, for a better power flow.

A 48VDC battery can't kill you immediatelly, but if its 5mA current
through a 10kOhms wet human body crosses the heart muscle during certain
time, the muscle will suffer and can go to a fatal arrest.  Safety
speaking, AC is much more recognizable, you can feel microamps of AC,
but not DC.

25 years ago, I was adjusting a 100W radio transmitter final stage on
the bench, somebody just hit the power cord and the transmitter bounced
to fall, my poor instinct made me hold the unit and my hand went
directly over the high voltage power stage tubes plates connectors.
Burn flesh smell all over the place, but almost not pain at all, even
that the palm of my hand got four deep burns to the bones, as if red hot
needles were pushed into it.  I don't recommend that experience to
nobody.  :)  About the transmitter? It went to the floor along with
Wattmeter and oscilloscope...

1999\09\10@120021 by Greg Brault

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> Actually, AC permeates throughout the body much easier than DC.  In fact,
> tests have been shown that 60 Hz is one of the easiest freqs that can get
> through... which seems contradictory to using it.

Greg


> > This sounds a little impossible as AC would alternately contract
> > and release your muscles forcing you to release it! This is one
> > of the reasons we have AC supplied to our home and not DC, among
> > ather obvious reasons.
> > Edison pushed for the use of AC by demonstrating on a horse. He'd
> > fist hit it with AC and watch it bolt. When caught he'd again
> > shcok it with DC killing it stone dead.

1999\09\10@131147 by Dwayne Reid

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>This sounds a little impossible as AC would alternately contract and
release your muscles forcing you to release it! This is one of the reasons
we have AC supplied to our home and not DC, among ather obvious reasons.
>Edison pushed for the use of AC by demonstrating on a horse. He'd fist hit
it with AC and watch it bolt. When caught he'd again shcok it with DC
killing it stone dead.

Sorry - but I think that you have things a little mixed up here.  Edison was
AGAINST the use of AC.  There are other errors in your statements above - I
can cite references for you to look up if you wish.

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <EraseMEdwaynerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 15 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 1999)

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1999\09\10@203552 by AppTech

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I think you have the Edison account backwards.
This from memory - may be faulty memory of course :-) - He used DC
distribution and touted it's safety compared to AC. So much so that a number
of his linemen died from excessively believing his spiel.


>This sounds a little impossible as AC would alternately contract and
release your muscles forcing you to release it! This is one of the reasons
we have AC supplied to our home and not DC, among ather obvious reasons.

If you have ever found yourself attached to an AC source of significant
potential you may have found that letting go is difficult notwithstanding
the cyclical contraction and release of muscles. 50 Hz is rather fast and
reversals effectively occur at 100 Hz. Numerous people will tell you stories
about not being able to let go from an AC contact.

> Edison pushed for the use of AC by demonstrating on a horse. He'd fist hit
it with AC and watch it bolt. When caught he'd again shcok it with DC
killing it stone dead.



Russell McMahon

1999\09\10@210119 by Anne Ogborn

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If I recall a lot of the AC/DC debate was driven by patent rights
rather than any honest technical issues.

--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\09\10@220832 by Jim Robertson

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At 11:11 10/09/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>This sounds a little impossible as AC would alternately contract and
>release your muscles forcing you to release it! This is one of the reasons
>we have AC supplied to our home and not DC, among ather obvious reasons.
>>Edison pushed for the use of AC by demonstrating on a horse. He'd fist hit
>it with AC and watch it bolt. When caught he'd again shcok it with DC
>killing it stone dead.
>
>Sorry - but I think that you have things a little mixed up here.  Edison was
>AGAINST the use of AC.  There are other errors in your statements above - I
>can cite references for you to look up if you wish.
>
>dwayne

Dwayne is right by my recall of history. Edison argued against AC and part of
his argument was rounding up cats and dogs and electrocuting them to prove how
dangerous AC was. The electric chair arose out of Edison's demonstrations of
the lethal nature of AC rather than the other way around as was suggested
elsewhere.

Jim



{Quote hidden}

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
________________________________________
Email: @spam@newfoundKILLspamspampipeline.com.au
http://www.new-elect.com
MPLAB compatible PIC programmers.
________________________________________

1999\09\11@013502 by paulb

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Anne Ogborn wrote:

> If I recall a lot of the AC/DC debate was driven by patent rights
> rather than any honest technical issues.

 Hmmm.  How little has changed!
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\09\11@043832 by gdaniel

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Edison did *not* promote AC over DC, Edison sold DC systems and
appliances.   Nikola Tesla invented the AC (or poly phase) system early
on.   Later Nikola worked briefly for Edison and was fortunate that
Edison did not comprehend his new ideas.   Although Edison appreciated
Tesla's work on repair of his DC machines there were profound
differences between Edison's grasping type philosophy and Tesla's
intuitive higher understanding of physics possibilities.   Tesla later
worked with Westinghouse's backing and not only perfected the AC system,
he also invented radio control, resonance theories, fluorescent lighting
and many other devices.   Tesla has been described as "A man out of
time" and I would translate this as meaning a extremly gifted inventor.
Edison ran the electrocution demos to "prove" that AC was more
dangerous, not suprisingly the contrary was true and so he rigged the
demonstrations to dishonestly implicate AC.


regards,
Graham Daniel.

Kevin Allenzovic wrote:
>
> This sounds a little impossible as AC would alternately contract and release y
our muscles forcing you to release it! This is one of the reasons we have AC sup
plied to our home and not DC, among ather obvious reasons.
> Edison pushed for the use of AC by demonstrating on a horse. He'd fist hit it
with AC and watch it bolt. When caught he'd again shcok it with DC killing it st
one dead.

--
Steam engines may be out of fashion, but when you consider that an
internal combustion engine would require recovery of waste heat by
transfer just before top dead centre then fashion becomes rather
redundant, USE STRATIFIED HEAT EXCHANGERS ! and external combustion.

You heard it first from: Graham Daniel, managing director of Electronic
Product Enhancements.
Phone NZ 04 387 4347, Fax NZ 04 3874348, Cellular NZ 021 954 196.

1999\09\11@045734 by gdaniel

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Talk to any survivor of an AC electric shock, typically in a high
voltage shock the electrical signal spasms their muscles and throws them
clear across the room. Consider a stop watch, a little practice will
have you starting and stopping the button to produce a time of .09
seconds. (or close)   Now consider a synchronised super powerful signal
to the nervous system, for .01 of a second all muscles are synchronised
to grasp/release.   The key difference is that AC will cause a net
shaking effect, while DC will lock the body.   At 400 volts you'd better
hope for a release part of the (AC) cycle.
At lower voltages there is more concious control of releasing, dependant
on actual body contact and body dryness.   If you work as an electrician
you quickly learn not to sweat around high voltage contacts.
regards,
Graham.

Peter van Hoof wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
Steam engines may be out of fashion, but when you consider that an
internal combustion engine would require recovery of waste heat by
transfer just before top dead centre then fashion becomes rather
redundant, USE STRATIFIED HEAT EXCHANGERS ! and external combustion.

You heard it first from: Graham Daniel, managing director of Electronic
Product Enhancements.
Phone NZ 04 387 4347, Fax NZ 04 3874348, Cellular NZ 021 954 196.

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