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PICList Thread
'somebody need's sun/soulborne mboard?'
1996\11\01@082602 by michele

flavicon
face
I hope do not disturb anyone with this quite commercial announce :-)
Esto  no es un mensaje tecnico, perdone por la molestia :-)

Hi,
i have some Sun and Solbourne main bord (new and used) and some graphics
card (mono and color)
If somebody is interested, please write me.
Thank you

Hola,
Yo tengo unas motherboard SUN y SOLBOURNE y Graphic Card (nuevas y no) si
algun estˆ interesado puedes escribirme.
Muchas Gracias



Michele
spam_OUTmichele.mTakeThisOuTspamcaen.it

1996\11\01@200411 by Cameron Palmer

picon face
Michelle did you ever receive any of my messages about the ZIF socket?
CAMERON

----------
From:   pic microcontroller discussion list on behalf of michele
Sent:   Friday, November 01, 1996 7:11 AM
To:     Multiple recipients of list PICLIST
Subject:        somebody need's sun/soulborne mboard?

I hope do not disturb anyone with this quite commercial announce :-)
Esto  no es un mensaje tecnico, perdone por la molestia :-)

Hi,
i have some Sun and Solbourne main bord (new and used) and some graphics
card (mono and color)
If somebody is interested, please write me.
Thank you

Hola,
Yo tengo unas motherboard SUN y SOLBOURNE y Graphic Card (nuevas y no) si
algun est=E0 interesado puedes escribirme.
Muchas Gracias



Michele
.....michele.mKILLspamspam@spam@caen.it

1996\11\02@153153 by michele

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face
Hi Cameron,
I'm in a big trouble with my computer and my internet provider, yesterday i
have received your message (some days after) and i send your zif socket by
air mail i hope it arrive as soon as possible.
Please write me when it arrive.
Thanks

Michele

At 00.59 02/11/96 UT, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}


'PIC board?'
1998\01\28@203654 by Luis Gustavo Covino
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     We would like to build a board based on the PIC controller
for educational purposes, using a keypad and display, with
communication to a PC to download programs. Do you know any
"operating system" to control a system like this? (In Portuguese
we say something like a "monitor" system).

Thanks in advance

Luis Gustavo
_________________________________
High Performance Computing Lab
University of Sao Paulo - Brazil

1998\01\29@074650 by Alan G. Smith
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face
>      We would like to build a board based on the PIC controller
>for educational purposes, using a keypad and display, with
>communication to a PC to download programs. Do you know any
>"operating system" to control a system like this? (In Portuguese
>we say something like a "monitor" system).
Unfortunately the PICs (to the best of my knowledge) are not capable of writing
to their program
memory.
(If there are any newer exceptions to this, someone please let me know.)
This gives you 2 choices:
1) Use a toggle switch to go between "Load" and "Run"  Look at
http://www.dontronics.com at the
SimmStick stuff and you'll see a good example.
2) Use 2 micros where one is the "main" micro and the other one is for
communications with the PC,
programming the chip, etc.

Best of luck,

Alan G. Smith


+---------------------------------------------------------
| Alan G. Smith
| .....agsKILLspamspam.....poboxes.com
| http://www.innovatus.com/ags

1998\01\29@081444 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Alan G. Smith <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> the PICs (to the best of my knowledge) are not capable of writing to
> their program memory. (If there are any newer exceptions to this,
> someone please let me know.)

Alan:

All of the 16-bit PICs (the 17Cxx and the upcoming 16C1xx) can write
to their own program memory.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - fastfwdspamspam_OUTix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499


'PIC/STAMP to play midi through roland midi board?'
1999\03\09@191902 by ryan pogge
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face
hello, I have a midi board laying around that used to be
attached to my SB16, It is made by Roland.
I was wondering if there was a way to interface it to a PIC
or other micro to play midi from an eprom
or something.  is this going to be very complicated?
any ideas/starting points?
thanks Ryan


'[PIC]: Any interest in board?'
2000\08\10@132124 by Howard McGinnis
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Hopefully this doesn't violate the rules of the PIC list....

We recently completed the development of a 16F873 based controller module
for a customer's vending system and am wondering if there's any interest in
this board as a development board by PICsters.

The board is 3.5 x 3 inches designed to mount in a Polycase QS series
enclosure.

The board supports the 16F873 (and would support the 16F870 if it's ever
released).

There are 4 optically isolated inputs, 1 TTL input/output and 5 outputs.
The outputs are buffered by an Allegro 2597 to allow 3 inputs 1 amp sink
capability and 2 outputs are paralleled to provide 2 amp sink capability.
One I/O is a combination LED and shorting block input. The PORT A analogs
are bought out to a header but unused in our current application.

Interface to the board is currently through a 0.156 Molex connector, 17
position (12 for I/O, 3 for comm, 2 for power). We use a 12 and 5 position
connector in the application. If there's enough interest, we would probably
change it to support a small clamp style barrier strip in place of the Molex.

A LTC1485 provides a two wire RS-485 communication interface for multi-drop
applications. A 5 pin connector allows the communication lines to be
connected to other interface devices such as RS-232, IR and RF modules. If
there's enough interest, we would change to allow either the LTC1485 or a
DS275 for RS-232 to be used (separate sockets).

Our current design uses a 78L05 low power regulator, although we layed the
board out to support the 7805 in the TO-220 case if required. Our
application is in a 24 VDC system, so some 12 V zeners are present to ease
the load on the regulator ( on one board, I used 0 ohm resistors to allow
operation with 8-12 VDC power - it's my play board!). Our design uses a
Raychem Polyfuse, but a conventional fuse or no fuse could be used.

An engineer at another customers site asked me about a small controller
board for a non-work related application and I am considering another run
of boards just to have some on hand.

If there's interest in this board as a development board or even a
production board, please contact me directly at @spam@mcginnisKILLspamspame-visions.com.

Howard
Howard McGinnis
KILLspamhmcginniKILLspamspamdigital.net
Electronic Visions, Inc.
1650 Barrett Drive
Rockledge FL 32955
(321) 632-7530
http://ddi.digital.net/~hmcginni
RemoveMEmcginnisTakeThisOuTspame-visions.com

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2000\08\10@134024 by James Paul

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Howard,

I would be interested in some. How many would depend on the cost per
board.   Let me know further details, and I'll get back with you.

                                      Thanks and Regards,

                                             Jim


On Thu, 10 August 2000, Howard McGinnis wrote:

{Quote hidden}

jimEraseMEspam.....jpes.com

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2000\08\10@142417 by Dan Michaels

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Howard McGinnis wrote:
>Hopefully this doesn't violate the rules of the PIC list....
..........


Howard,

I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that they setup
the [AD]: category to handle this sort of announcement. That
way people who don't want to experience commercialism on
piclist can filter out the header. [Jim, Mark ?????]

- danM

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2000\08\10@143617 by jamesnewton

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Please use the [AD]: topic tag (and not the [pic]: tag) for further posts on
this (or other sales related) thread.

---
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EraseMEjamesnewtonspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}


'[PIC]: PIC Handy Board???'
2001\04\11@162546 by Thomas N
picon face
Hi everyone,

Quick question for you:

Is there any "Handy Board" out there that's made for the PICmicro?  Is there
any similar board out there?  I want to develop a similar system as the
Handy board, but I am not sure where to start.  Please help!


Thanks
Thomas

P.S.  The Handy Board is develop by MIT and it is made for HC11 Micro.

_________________________________________________________________________
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2001\04\11@180604 by Olin Lathrop

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> Is there any "Handy Board" out there that's made for the PICmicro?  Is
there
> any similar board out there?  I want to develop a similar system as the
> Handy board, but I am not sure where to start.  Please help!

I don't know what a "handy board" is, but Jameco has boards for simple PIC
prototyping.  There is usually circuitry for the oscillator, power, ground,
MCLR, and a holes array for adding your own stuff.


********************************************************************
Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, RemoveMEolinspam_OUTspamKILLspamembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com

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2001\04\11@201725 by Dan Michaels

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Thomas N wrote:

>
>Is there any "Handy Board" out there that's made for the PICmicro?  Is there
>any similar board out there?  I want to develop a similar system as the
>Handy board, but I am not sure where to start.  Please help!
>

Hello Thomas, I have looked around for such a board in the past, but
not found one. If you want to find more info about the original HC11
boards, I have some links here:

http://www.oricomtech.com/emerge6.htm#Des2

Since there are no PIC Handyboards that I know of, I decided to
build my own - but haven't had much time to follow this up as yet.
Some info about this idea is here:

http://www.oricomtech.com/projects.htm#Bot2

best regards,
- dan michaels
=====================

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2001\04\12@094834 by Lawrence Lile

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Yes, they are made by MicroEngineering labs.  They are all set up with a
premade circuit that works  for xtal or RC oscillators, all the ports are
brought out
to a row of holes, there's a big hole-per-pad prototyping area, all set up
for a 5 volt regulator, and so on.  I use them like mad.


Jameco  http://www.jameco.com   lists them on page 18 of catalog +ACM-204 from US+ACQ-9.95
up.  This with a Scott Edwards serial LCD and you are 2/3 the way to a
working board.


-- Lawrence Lile


{Original Message removed}

2001\04\13@111750 by Mohamed Eldesoky

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Do you mean HAndy device that is part of Oxygen project!!!????

Mohamed Eldesoky
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life is to try.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{Original Message removed}

2001\04\13@120521 by Dan Michaels

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Mohamed Eldesoky wrote:
>Do you mean HAndy device that is part of Oxygen project!!!????
>

Handy 21 and Handy board are 2 totally different projects from MIT.
Handy board was designed more than 5 years ago for control of small
robots, and originally developed in their robotics course 6.270:

http://www.handyboard.com/
http://www.mit.edu:8001/courses/6.270/home.html

Handy 21, or H21, is part of the MIT Oxygen project, and meant to be
a general-purpose computing and communications device - kind of the
ultimate Palm Pilot:

http://www.oxygen.lcs.mit.edu/
http://www.oxygen.lcs.mit.edu/H21.html

Apparently the funny name [Oxygen] comes from the idea that H21's
will eventually be as ubiquitous as oxygen.

...........
- dan michaels
http://www.oricomtech.com
======================

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'[PIC]:LCD Daughterboard?'
2001\09\16@113025 by JP
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Hi, I am looking at making an LCD daughterboard using a 16F84 and a 2x16 LCD display.  There are two reasons,

1. To make an LCD module that I can use with various projects and simply unplug and plug into a different project.

2. The main reason is to allow me to only take up 1 or at most 2 I/O lines for the display.  It will also be much easier being able to send the data to the daughterboard and then allowing that to do the rest of the display processing while the main processor gets on with it's other duties.  This will also allow me to have the display used by more that one PIC at once.

Has anybody already done this?  It seems like something that allot of people would use but I cannot search the PICLIST.com site as for some reason the links to the source / projects areas will not load.

Thanks,
JP.

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2001\09\16@123129 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Several vendors sell a PIC-n-LCD which should meet your needs nicely. Just
do a Google search.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\16@124611 by JP

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Sorry, I might not have explained, I want to make it not buy it.  I was just
wondering if anyone else had come accross code for such a thing that I could
look at as an example.


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\16@125025 by Raymond Choat

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Scott Edwards sells one. Check his site. Sorry you will have to do a search
as I do not have URL.
Wrong Way Ray (Raymond Choat)

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\16@125851 by Jeff DeMaagd

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face
I don't know if this is what you want, but Joan Ilari has a nifty LCD &
keypad module to start from here:

http://www.terra.es/personal4/joan.ilari/lcd/lcd.htm

If you wanted it on some sort of two wire bus you would likely have to
make a PIC for it to convert the protocols.

The reason I think it is nifty is that eight wires is all that is needed
for basic input and LCD display, using the standard Hitachi LCD protocol
and cheap shift register chips, I don't think making a PIC interface
between an I2C or other serial link and the module would be that
difficult.

Also check piclist.com.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: JP <RemoveMEpiclistKILLspamspamMAILANDNEWS.COM>


> Sorry, I might not have explained, I want to make it not buy it.  I
was just
> wondering if anyone else had come accross code for such a thing that I
could
> look at as an example.

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2001\09\16@133231 by dpharris

picon face
Yo!

Robert Cote developed a model train controller which uses a 16 key ketbd and
LCD display and a 84/628.  Code is available-- you could certainly hack
that.  He can also sell you a wee pc board.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/robert.cote/dccnew0.htm

David

Jeff DeMaagd wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2001\09\16@193910 by Tony Nixon

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picon face
JP wrote:
>
> Hi, I am looking at making an LCD daughterboard using a 16F84 and a 2x16 LCD display.  There are two reasons,
>
> 1. To make an LCD module that I can use with various projects and simply unplug and plug into a different project.
>
> 2. The main reason is to allow me to only take up 1 or at most 2 I/O lines for the display.  It will also be much easier being able to send the data to the daughterboard and then allowing that to do the rest of the display processing while the main processor gets on with it's other duties.  This will also allow me to have the display used by more that one PIC at once.
>
> Has anybody already done this?  It seems like something that allot of people would use but I cannot search the PICLIST.com site as for some reason the links to the source / projects areas will not load.
>
> Thanks,
>
> JP.
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
> ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Hi JP,

I have a beginners LCD project in PDF format that explains 4 and 8 bit
mode running from a 16F84. Has about 11 code examples that finish up
reading messages from ROM tables to display messages.

If you would like a copy, I will post it to you.

--
Best regards

Tony

mICros
http://www.bubblesoftonline.com
salesSTOPspamspamspam_OUTbubblesoftonline.com

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2001\09\16@211240 by Raymond Choat

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please post it for all of us. Thanks

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Nixon" <spamBeGoneTony.NixonSTOPspamspamEraseMEENG.MONASH.EDU.AU>
To: <KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC]:LCD Daughterboard?


> JP wrote:
> >
> > Hi, I am looking at making an LCD daughterboard using a 16F84 and a 2x16
LCD display.  There are two reasons,
> >
> > 1. To make an LCD module that I can use with various projects and simply
unplug and plug into a different project.
> >
> > 2. The main reason is to allow me to only take up 1 or at most 2 I/O
lines for the display.  It will also be much easier being able to send the
data to the daughterboard and then allowing that to do the rest of the
display processing while the main processor gets on with it's other duties.
This will also allow me to have the display used by more that one PIC at
once.
> >
> > Has anybody already done this?  It seems like something that allot of
people would use but I cannot search the PICLIST.com site as for some reason
the links to the source / projects areas will not load.
{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\17@012638 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
www.bobblick.com/bob/projects/lcdterm/ is a serial terminal using an
LCD and keypad. LCD's from 1x8 to 4x20 are easily configured.

Cheers,

Bob Blick

At 04:11 PM 9/16/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi, I am looking at making an LCD daughterboard using a 16F84 and a 2x16
LCD display.  There are two reasons,
>
>1. To make an LCD module that I can use with various projects and simply
unplug and plug into a different project.
>
>2. The main reason is to allow me to only take up 1 or at most 2 I/O lines
for the display.  It will also be much easier being able to send the data
to the daughterboard and then allowing that to do the rest of the display
processing while the main processor gets on with it's other duties.  This
will also allow me to have the display used by more that one PIC at once.
>
>Has anybody already done this?  It seems like something that allot of
people would use but I cannot search the PICLIST.com site as for some
reason the links to the source / projects areas will not load.
{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\17@021725 by kben

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JP,
try these programs
www.piclist.org/techref/piclist/cheapic/index.htm
The PROGRAMS half way down the page should give you enough info to hack together
what you want. That's how I built my first couple of projects,
including an LCD Daughterboard.  If you have any questions, you can contact
me
on-list or off.
Good Luck,
Kevin

>Sorry, I might not have explained, I want to make it not buy it.  I was just

>wondering if anyone else had come accross code for such a thing that I could

>look at as an example.
>
>
>{Original Message removed}

2001\09\17@024327 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Raymond Choat wrote:
>
> please post it for all of us. Thanks

> > Hi JP,
> >
> > I have a beginners LCD project in PDF format that explains 4 and 8 bit
> > mode running from a 16F84. Has about 11 code examples that finish up
> > reading messages from ROM tables to display messages.
> >
> > If you would like a copy, I will post it to you.


I will be away for a week, but tonight I'll post the LCD and ADC
projects here for download.

http://www.bubblesoftonline.com/lcdadc.zip




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Tony

mICros
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2001\09\17@033641 by Vasile Surducan

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Interfacing an x84 with a LCD is not too difficult.
See my solution at :
http://www.geocities.com/vsurducan/pic84lcd.htm

or more others at:
http://www.myke.com/code/2wirepic.asm
http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/resources.htm
http://www.netstra.com.au/~elek

Vasile

On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, JP wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\17@041254 by Bond, Peter

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Hi -

> Hi, I am looking at making an LCD daughterboard using a 16F84
> and a 2x16 LCD display.  There are two reasons,

2 wire LCD - http://www.rentron.com/Myke1.htm

(Assuming it hasn't already been posted...)

Peter
This email, its content and any attachments is PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL to
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2001\09\17@151321 by JP

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I would like that please :)

JP.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Nixon" <.....Tony.NixonspamRemoveMEENG.MONASH.EDU.AU>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC]:LCD Daughterboard?


> JP wrote:
> >
> > Hi, I am looking at making an LCD daughterboard using a 16F84 and a 2x16
LCD display.  There are two reasons,
> >
> > 1. To make an LCD module that I can use with various projects and simply
unplug and plug into a different project.
> >
> > 2. The main reason is to allow me to only take up 1 or at most 2 I/O
lines for the display.  It will also be much easier being able to send the
data to the daughterboard and then allowing that to do the rest of the
display processing while the main processor gets on with it's other duties.
This will also allow me to have the display used by more that one PIC at
once.
> >
> > Has anybody already done this?  It seems like something that allot of
people would use but I cannot search the PICLIST.com site as for some reason
the links to the source / projects areas will not load.
{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\17@162228 by JP

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Ok, I have read most of the stuff I can on these LCD's.  Two Questions,

1.  Writing in 4bit mode, do I set E high, set the 4 databits, Set E low,
Set E high, set the remaining 4 databits (d3 - d0) then set E low?

2.  How can I Equate a variable to 4 bits of PortB?  If using 8bit mode I
would simply use:

LCD-DATA equ PORTB
then later:
movwf    LCD-DATA

So for 4 bit mode I need to be able to Equate LCD-DATA to PORTB (bits
4,5,6,7).  How do I do this?

Thanks, and sorry if the above is a bit jumpled and makes no sense...

JP.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\17@163156 by M. Adam Davis

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The msot recent Nuts n Volts has exactly what you are asking for.  Two
hex files, one 2400 the other 9600 for a serial to lcd chip.

Check your local newstand.  I couldn't find it at nutsvolts.com.  If you
need it badly, I might be able to scan the hex file in for you.  Wish
they'd give the code...

-Adam

JP wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\09\17@172353 by JP

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Thanks but it is much more satisfying to write the code more or less myself.
It will help me learn faster too :)


{Original Message removed}

2001\09\18@145224 by Benjamin Bromilow

flavicon
face
For nibble mode, set the bits on the port then take E high then take it low
again, then change the bits on the port, set E high again and pulse E high
again. Then initiate the necessary delay (40us for most functions).
Don't forget to create a delay after switching on the LCD to allow
everything to settle down before giving commands. 30mS is more than enough
as I recall.
I believe the remote LCD daughterboard should work very nicely. I did
something very similar to driver some LEDs on a daughter board when I needed
to control 12 LEDs but didn't want to have to use 12 connecting wires. The
interesting bit I imagine will be brewing up an interface protocol. The
great thing about the LCD daughterboard is that the delay created by making
a serial interface will not matter too much because of the intrinsic delays
involved in writing to an LCD.
I got a CS550001 LCD module (2*16) from EIO. I got it to work with a 16F84.
I wrote up a quick app note, which EIO have posted on their technical page
for the CS550001 unit which includes source code for the CS550001 in nibble
mode with a 16F84 (the CS550001 only does nibble mode). Its not for a
daughterboard system but might give you some pointers. If you mail me off
list I can send a copy of the app note to you- otherwise its from
http://www.eio.com

Ben

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\18@171555 by JP

flavicon
face
Ok so I set the bits and then strobe E.  Any ideas on the bit allocation?

BTW pls do mail me the exsmple :)

JP.

{Original Message removed}

2001\09\19@153031 by Benjamin Bromilow

flavicon
face
The CS55001 units I used can only work in nibble mode. As I was using a
16F877 for its AD converters etc and wasn't short on port pins I simply
connected the LCD to the PIC like this:

RB4  === E
RD7  === DB4
RD6  === DB3
RD5  === DB2
RD4  === DB1
RD3    no connection
RD2    no connection
RD1    no connection
RD0    no connection

Obviously this is only good if you can afford to have four pins not
connected to anything.
then did the following- put data to Port D, pulse E, swap high and lower
nibbles in Port D then pulse E again then delay
or........

movlw    "B"    ; =b'00100100'
call    DISPLAY
movlw    "E"
call    DISPLAY
....etc etc

DISPLAY
movwf PORTD    ; from before the function call
bsf PORTB,4
nop
bcf PORTB,4
swapf PORTD,F    ; swap low bits into high bits of Port D
bsf  PORTB,4
nop
bcf PORTB,4
movlw H'0C'        ; enough for a 40uS delay
movwf STORE1
LOOP1
decfsz STORE1,1
goto LOOP1
return


This is how I did it in the end... Works fine. If the mhz of the PIC was
high enough, you might run into problems with the E pulse not being held
high for long enough but on 4Mhz oscillator, I had no problems. Initially I
tripled all delays to be extra sure then reduced them one by one when I knew
they were'nt a problem

Ben





{Original Message removed}


'[PIC]:F874 dev board?'
2001\12\14@115240 by Micro Eng
picon face
In my travels...I have seen an F874 dev board, that had a large breadboard
area on it.  But now I can't find it.  Anyone point me to where it is again?
 I would love a plcc based dev card, but the 40pin DIP is fine.

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2001\12\14@120821 by ronruss

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face
Checkout http://www.picwiser.com.

The PIC16F876 is so easy to use that you can usually
design your own prototyping system. Checkout the
2BIT article on the site also.

Micro Eng wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\12\14@124838 by Al Williams

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face
I just use a solderless breadboard. If you want something more semi
permanent, Radio Shack and Global sell a little PC board that exactly
matches the layout of a breadboard. No mask and they are usually filthy,
so plenty of flux :-)

The main connections you want are a reset switch, power, and the
resonator. If you want to use a bootloader, check out
http://www.al-williams.com/awce/rs1.htm for an easy way to hook a serial
cable up to a PIC in a breadboard. In fact, we have an '873 set up like
this at http://www.al-williams.com/awce/app1.htm

The little breadboard looking PCBs are great for this sort of thing.

Al Williams
AWC


> {Original Message removed}

2001\12\14@134345 by Mark Skeels

picon face
Try microEngineering Labs.

http://www.melabs.com

Mark

----- Original Message -----
From: "Micro Eng" <RemoveMEmicro_engEraseMEspamspam_OUTHOTMAIL.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLISTRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:51 AM
Subject: [PIC]:F874 dev board?


> In my travels...I have seen an F874 dev board, that had a large breadboard
> area on it.  But now I can't find it.  Anyone point me to where it is
again?
{Quote hidden}

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2001\12\17@161853 by Rock Thompson

picon face
Look at the circuit board section at http://www.picpalm.com.
I designed these boards to stack modularly.  So you
can have your basic motherboard and then stack various
prototype boards you've made on top of it.

--- Micro Eng <EraseMEmicro_engspam@spam@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> In my travels...I have seen an F874 dev board, that
> had a large breadboard
> area on it.  But now I can't find it.  Anyone point
> me to where it is again?
>   I would love a plcc based dev card, but the 40pin
> DIP is fine.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
{Quote hidden}

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2001\12\19@100401 by Tsvetan Usunov

flavicon
face
>In my travels...I have seen an F874 dev board, that had a large breadboard
>area on it.  But now I can't find it.  Anyone point me to where it is
again?
>  I would love a plcc based dev card, but the 40pin DIP is fine.

http://www.olimex.com/dev check for PIC-P28-xx proto board

Best regards
Tsvetan
---
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Development boards for PIC, AVR and MSP430  (http://www.olimex.com/dev)

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'[AD:] Yet another PIC prototype board?'
2003\11\24@062002 by Tom Deutschman
flavicon
face
Is there room (need) for yet another PIC proto board? I'm considering
designing and marketing a couple of PIC prototype boards. I am looking
for input on features such as processors supported, desired peripherals
(LCD, switches, LEDs, relays, digital pots, frequency synthesizers,
audio amplifiers, keypads, etc.), size, cost, quality. Would folks like
to see board with high-end PICMicro in SMT pre-soldered to board. Also
considering supplying quick-turn "custom" proto boards if there is
adequate demand for a particular configuration of above features. Any
input would be greatly appreciated. Why am I doing this? After almost 25
years of working for other companies, I have finally jumped ship to work
for myself. Translate this into moving to Spokane, WA USA for another
start-up only to see it reduce staff by almost 50% in the past several
months. So here we are in Spokane and here we want to stay. Thank you
much for any input.

Best regards,

Tom Deutschman
http://www.wizbangdesigns.com <http://www.wizbangdesigns.com/>


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2003\11\24@082330 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Tom Deutschman wrote:
> After almost 25 years of working
> for other companies, I have finally jumped ship to work for myself.
> Translate this into moving to Spokane, WA USA for another start-up
> only to see it reduce staff by almost 50% in the past several months.
> So here we are in Spokane and here we want to stay.

What a place to get stuck, ouch!

Do you plan on setting up a full web shop that takes real credit cards?  In
other words, a real merchant account with real shopping cart software?


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\11\24@083544 by Tom Deutschman

flavicon
face
>
> Tom Deutschman wrote:
> > After almost 25 years of working
> > for other companies, I have finally jumped ship to work for myself.
> > Translate this into moving to Spokane, WA USA for another start-up
> > only to see it reduce staff by almost 50% in the past
> several months.
> > So here we are in Spokane and here we want to stay.
>
> What a place to get stuck, ouch!
>
> Do you plan on setting up a full web shop that takes real
> credit cards?  In other words, a real merchant account with
> real shopping cart software?
>

Yes I do. Researching all of that now. My web host provides shopping
cart plug-in and I'll be setting up merchant services via Costco. I'll
even ship anywhere in the world :-)

Would like to design some hobby boards that have PIC and a variety of
state of the art peripheral IC's, along with the firmware to get
started. I plan to publish schematics, code, etc. for all designs.

Tom
http://www.wizbangdesigns.com

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2003\11\24@083957 by D. Jay Newman

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face
> Is there room (need) for yet another PIC proto board? I'm considering
> designing and marketing a couple of PIC prototype boards. I am looking

If you're doing pre-soldered SMD parts, you might want to talk with
James Caska. He's putting out a line of PICs that work with a Java
compiler. He might be willing to put out the bigger chips faster if
there were prototyping boards for them.

  http://www.muvium.com/
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2003\11\24@085910 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
Tom Deutschman wrote:
> Yes I do. Researching all of that now. My web host provides shopping
> cart plug-in and I'll be setting up merchant services via Costco. I'll
> even ship anywhere in the world :-)

Are you interested in reselling other people's products?  In other words,
doing the stocking, sales, shipping, and collecting for a markup?


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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2003\11\24@094325 by Tom Deutschman

flavicon
face
>
> Are you interested in reselling other people's products?  In
> other words, doing the stocking, sales, shipping, and
> collecting for a markup?

Yes, Olin. I am interested. I'll call you later today. Need to get snow
tires on. We just got another 4" on top of the 6" from the other day.

Tom



>
>
> *****************************************************************
> Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
> (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com
>
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2003\11\24@095153 by Brian Clewer

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face
Tom,
Don't forget that not everybody needs / wants a DEV board, but they will
need a programmer to get started.  If you can build a good, cheap
programmer - maybe with ICD support into MPLAB, you can't go too far wrong.

Brian.

{Original Message removed}

2003\11\24@100300 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>If you can build a good, cheap programmer - maybe
>with ICD support into MPLAB, you can't go too far
>wrong.

Well the ICD support is where you will founder, as the information is not
available for the ICD2 with MPLAB, and 18F chips, and for the product to
have a reasonable lifetime it will need these, as otherwise you are limited
to ICD1 with MPLAB version 5.xx, and 16F87x chips.

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2003\11\24@101129 by

picon face
Tom Deutschman wrote:

> >
> > Are you interested in reselling other people's products?  In
> > other words, doing the stocking, sales, shipping, and
> > collecting for a markup?
>
> Yes, Olin. I am interested. I'll call you later today. Need to get snow
> tires on. We just got another 4" on top of the 6" from the other day.
>
> Tom

Damn, I'v forgotten to call my tire shop to book the
change to winter tires ! Better call right away, after
the 1 of Dec we are not allowed to use summer tires in
Sweden...

Thanks for the pointer !

:-)

Jan-Erik.

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2003\11\24@110250 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> > > Are you interested in reselling other people's products?  In
> > > other words, doing the stocking, sales, shipping, and
> > > collecting for a markup?
> >
> > Yes, Olin. I am interested. I'll call you later today. Need to get snow
> > tires on. We just got another 4" on top of the 6" from the other day.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Damn, I'v forgotten to call my tire shop to book the
> change to winter tires ! Better call right away, after
> the 1 of Dec we are not allowed to use summer tires in
> Sweden...

       Really? You are FORCED to use winter tires?? Wow, I wish that were the case
here in Canada. Well that, and I wish positraction were a standard feature
on all cars, but hey, some people seem to love finding out how much flooring
your car when you've got zero traction helps... :) TTYL

----------------------------------
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2003\11\24@115726 by

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote :
> > Damn, I'v forgotten to call my tire shop to book the
> > change to winter tires ! Better call right away, after
> > the 1 of Dec we are not allowed to use summer tires in
> > Sweden...
>
> Really? You are FORCED to use winter tires??

Yup,
You MUST use "winter-tires" (studded or un-stubbed) between 1-Dec and 31-Mars.
And you MAY use *stubbed* winter tires only between 1-Oct and 30-April.

Jan-Erik.

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2003\11\24@224121 by Intosh, Ph.D.

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face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

source= http://www.piclist.com/piclist/2003/11/24/101129a.txt?



>Yes, Olin. I am interested. I'll call you later today. Need to get snow
>tires on. We just got another 4" on top of the 6" from the other day.
>
>Tom

Damn, I'v forgotten to call my tire shop to book the
change to winter tires ! Better call right away, after
the 1 of Dec we are not allowed to use summer tires in
Sweden...

Thanks for the pointer !

:-)

Jan-Erik.


- ----

It snowed here in 1985.  Really.  I saw it.  Again in about '94.  Perhaps
this year fits the pattern.  Hope I get the job in Laredo, where the
weather is warmer.



- ---
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http://www.piclist.com/member/AM-vima-Y84
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


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2003\11\24@235126 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Monday, Nov 24, 2003, at 19:38 US/Pacific, Aubrey McIntosh, Ph.D.
wrote:
>
> It snowed here in 1985.  Really.  I saw it.  Again in about '94.
> Perhaps
> this year fits the pattern.  Hope I get the job in Laredo, where the
> weather is warmer.
>
here, people buy expensive fancy all-wheel drive sport utility things,
and chains for the tires, just so they can drive for four or five hours
to GET to a place where it snows...  (but it's still cheaper than
houses.)

BillW

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'[OT:] Yet another PIC prototype board?'
2003\12\01@055657 by hael Rigby-Jones
picon face
{Quote hidden}

Here, people buy the same type of vehicle to drive their brats the 200 yards
to and from school in fine weather.

Mike




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'[EE] Small PC Board?'
2004\09\20@063429 by John C Clements
flavicon
face

I seem to recall here or on Slashdot, recent notice of a small PC
compatible full featured processor board.  Very much smaller that the
mini-ITX form factor, running very low power.  Am planning to use an
embedded PC in a project and wondering if anyone remembers the name of
the board and/or source?  Seem to recall this was about 1 to 1.5 inches
wide and 3 to 4 inches long.

Hope this is the right tag line, etc. been lurking here for several
years, have learned an immense amount from the community, thanks to all.

Yes, I am planning to use a PIC somewhere in the project, probably in
the motor PWM boards.

Thanks in advance,

John Clements



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2004\09\20@064602 by hael Rigby-Jones

picon face

>-----Original Message-----
>From: .....piclist-bouncesSTOPspamspam@spam@mit.edu [piclist-bouncesEraseMEspam@spam@mit.edu]
>On Behalf Of John C Clements
>Sent: 20 September 2004 11:34
>To: RemoveMEpiclistspamspamBeGonemit.edu
>Subject: [EE] Small PC Board?
>
>
>
>I seem to recall here or on Slashdot, recent notice of a small
>PC compatible full featured processor board.  Very much
>smaller that the mini-ITX form factor, running very low power.
> Am planning to use an embedded PC in a project and wondering
>if anyone remembers the name of the board and/or source?  Seem
>to recall this was about 1 to 1.5 inches  wide and 3 to 4 inches long.

There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of tiny embedded PC's available.  The
original "standard" for embedded PC's is PC104 (http://www.pc104.org/),
which includes an ISA bus so modules can be stacked.  However, much smaller
boards are now avaiable, e.g. http://www.jumptec.de/ depending on the kind
of CPU speed, memory and peripherals you require,

If you get Circuit Cellar there are a lot of adverts for these boards, or
simply Google for "embedded PC"

Regards

Mike

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2004\09\20@071705 by Ake Hedman

flavicon
face
John C Clements wrote:

> I seem to recall here or on Slashdot, recent notice of a small PC
> compatible full featured processor board.  Very much smaller that the
> mini-ITX form factor, running very low power.  Am planning to use an
> embedded PC in a project and wondering if anyone remembers the name of
> the board and/or source?  Seem to recall this was about 1 to 1.5 inches
>  wide and 3 to 4 inches long.
>
> Hope this is the right tag line, etc. been lurking here for several
> years, have learned an immense amount from the community, thanks to all.
>
> Yes, I am planning to use a PIC somewhere in the project, probably in
> the motor PWM boards.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> John Clements


The NANO-ITX boards from VIA is nice (12cm x 12cm)

http://www.viaembedded.com/product/epia_N_spec.jsp?motherboardId=221

Not as small as the one you saw though. They now also have some boards without the bulky connectors. http://www.viaembedded.com/product/epia_ms_spec.jsp?motherboardId=281

This is also a very interesting thingi at http://www.cdatas.com/ But then you probably has to go for Linux as your OS...

Regards
/Ake




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eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102
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2004\09\20@080015 by ?J=2E_Pe=F1a?=

flavicon
face
> I seem to recall here or on Slashdot, recent notice of a small PC
> compatible full featured processor board.  Very much smaller that the
> mini-ITX form factor, running very low power.  Am planning to use an
> embedded PC in a project and wondering if anyone remembers the name of
> the board and/or source?  Seem to recall this was about 1 to 1.5 inches
>  wide and 3 to 4 inches long.
http://www.gumstix.com/ ?

Saludos,
                                       HoraPe
---
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spamBeGonehorapeKILLspamspam@spam@compendium.com.ar
horapespam_OUTspam@spam@uninet.edu

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2004\09\20@093918 by Mike Singer

picon face
Superb resource on embedded systems:

http://www.linuxdevices.com


Mike, not Russell.

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2004\09\20@095523 by SO-8859-1?Q?Ruben_J=F6nsson?=

flavicon
face
Here is one "credit card sized":

<http://www.compulab.co.il/586core.htm>

Regards / Ruben

{Quote hidden}

==============================
Ruben Jönsson
AB Liros Electronic
Box 9124, 200 39 Malmö, Sweden
TEL INT +46 40142078
FAX INT +46 40947388
spamBeGoneruben@spam@spampp.sbbs.se
==============================

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2004\09\20@112011 by Win Wiencke

flavicon
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<John C Clements asks>

> I seem to recall here or on Slashdot, recent notice of a small PC
> compatible full featured processor board.

In the US check out http://www.JKMicro.com  I've had very good luck with
their stuff.

Win Wiencke

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2004\09\20@141643 by D. Jay Newman

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> I seem to recall here or on Slashdot, recent notice of a small PC
> compatible full featured processor board.  Very much smaller that the
> mini-ITX form factor, running very low power.  Am planning to use an
> embedded PC in a project and wondering if anyone remembers the name of
> the board and/or source?  Seem to recall this was about 1 to 1.5 inches
>  wide and 3 to 4 inches long.

If you can use Linux and a limited board, http://www.gumstix.com/
--
D. Jay Newman           ! DCX - it takes off and lands base down,
RemoveMEjayEraseMEspamKILLspamsprucegrove.com     !       as God and Robert Heinlein intended.
http://enerd.ws/robots/ !
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2004\09\20@202446 by Shawn Tan Ser Ngiap

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Hash: SHA1

On Monday 20 September 2004 18:34, John C Clements wrote:
> I seem to recall here or on Slashdot, recent notice of a small PC
> compatible full featured processor board.  Very much smaller that the
> mini-ITX form factor, running very low power.  Am planning to use an
> embedded PC in a project and wondering if anyone remembers the name of
> the board and/or source?  Seem to recall this was about 1 to 1.5 inches
>  wide and 3 to 4 inches long.

Well, these are not as small, but they're low power and 100% PC compatible
with support for flash based storage and PXE boot.. They're still small
though.. There are many configuration options available as well..

http://www.aeste.net/products/gaea.html

- --
with metta,
Shawn Tan

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'[EE] LQFP-48 to DIP adapter board?'
2006\03\13@212517 by Marcel Birthelmer
picon face
Does anyone know of a place that sells LQFP-48 to DIP (0.1" spaced)
adapters? I've scoured the net, and the closest I found are the breakouts at
Jelu, which don't help since the arrangement is not breadboard-friendly.

2006\03\13@215300 by Tarun Grover

picon face
Marcel,

You might want to check out http://www.schmartboard.com/index.asp.  They
sell some interesting adapter boards which I was introduced to recently by a
friend.  I don't know how well they would adapt to being bread-boarded but
it's worth a look.  I have a few of these but I'm not breadboarding directly
so it's not that big a concern for me, although they do use proper 0.1" pin
spacing.

Let us know what you think.

-Tarun.

On 3/13/06, Marcel Birthelmer <spamBeGonemarcelb.listsspam_OUTspamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a place that sells LQFP-48 to DIP (0.1" spaced)
> adapters? I've scoured the net, and the closest I found are the breakouts
> at
> Jelu, which don't help since the arrangement is not breadboard-friendly.
> -

2006\03\13@222727 by Timothy Weber

face picon face
Tarun Grover wrote:
> Marcel,
>
> You might want to check out http://www.schmartboard.com/index.asp.  They
> sell some interesting adapter boards which I was introduced to recently by a
> friend.  I don't know how well they would adapt to being bread-boarded but
> it's worth a look.  I have a few of these but I'm not breadboarding directly
> so it's not that big a concern for me, although they do use proper 0.1" pin
> spacing.

I use the SchmartBoards and just add solid-core wires to break out the
signals I'm interested in.  Messy, but I haven't needed a lot of lines
out so far so it hasn't been an issue.

Looking at the spacing just now, I think you could probably use 0.1"
pins to attach them to a breadboard, but the boards are about 2" square,
so you'd end up having to run the headers on two adjacent breadboard
sockets, taking up quite a bit of space.  (Let me know if that doesn't
make sense - I'll make a picture.)
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org

2006\03\14@154817 by Marcel Birthelmer

picon face
That does make sense, but in the end it would be a solution equivalent to
mounting it on the jelu breakout board. At this point, I'm hoping for one of
sparkfun's development for a similar and reasonably pin-compatible chip to
do the job.
Thanks for the input though.

On 3/13/06, Timothy Weber <.....twspamRemoveMEtimothyweber.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -


'[SX] Servos on SX48/52 Proto Board?'
2006\12\04@210533 by jcpolen/a
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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, jcpole wrote:

Hi all...


I've got a bunch of SX48/52 proto boards that I have used to build a custom brain for a combat robot I'm designing.  My programs work just fine, and I'm at the point where I need to actually make the little guy move, and I've hit a snag.  Is there anything special that I need to do to enable the servo connectors on these boards?  The schematics seem to show that they are already hardwired, but I don't get anything when I connect servos to the boards.


The schematics also mention a connection (actually, several connections) for Vsvo.  I seem to recall reading somewhere that one shouldn't use regulated power for servos and DC motors - do I need to connect an alternate power source for the servos?


I know that my servo logic is good because I tested the basic program (movement only) on a BS2px.  The boards just don't seem to be providing any power to the servo connectors.


Thanks...


Jamie
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2006\12\04@230656 by PJMontyn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, PJMonty wrote:

Jamie,
As I recall, the power switch switch is a three position switch.  Position 0 = OFF, position 1 = Power to logic only, position 2 = power to logic and servos.

I use regulated power for servos all the time, but that's because I'm driving them from a big 100 VAC powered supply.  If you're running off batteries for your bot, then giving them raw battery power is probably better.  Just make sure the battery voltage doesn't exceed the allowed voltage for the servos.  
In addition, you can't really power them from the regulator on the proto board since it's a linear regulator limited to about 1 AMP - but only with a heatsink the size of Cleveland.  Run a bunch of servos and you;ll get a burning hot voltage regulator in no time.

[list]Thanks,
PeterM[/list]
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2006\12\05@045021 by kd5dhun/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, kd5dhu wrote:

[2]
In addition to Peter's info make sure that you have selected the voltage source for the four 3-pin headers. To the right of last servo connector is a spot for a horizontal 3-pin header, this will allow you to select VDD or VIN for the servo headers. As shown in the attached picture this board is set to supply VDD to the servo connector. Also you will need to connect the signal pin of the three pin servo header to the SX. In the attached photo, the white wire connected to servo header '0' is connected to RA.0
[/2]
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2006\12\05@065334 by jcpolen/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, jcpole wrote:

Thanks Peter and Mike!

I knew that I had to have been missing something boneheaded...  :-)  
It never even occurred to me that a jumper was needed to select the voltage source - of course, that would explain why there's no continuity across those pins, wouldn't it?  ;-)  It's always the simple things - I practically have a neural network running on these SXs, and I get strung up by a missing voltage select jumper.  Gotta love it...

As far as the amperage for the servos, I was wondering about that...

Thanks again...

Jamie
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'[PIC] 18F45J10 - causing a short on the board?'
2007\10\16@110038 by alan smith
picon face
Has anyone used the 44 QFP package for this part?  This is one of those strange things thats going to turn out to be somthing else..but so far it points to the chip.  I have a 3.3V power to ground short, so I used a short sniffer to isolate the area, then started to isolate it further.  The short is measuring less than 4 ohms from power to ground.
 
 I lifted the two power pins on the chip and it cleared it up.  I've verified that the chip is down correctly, and that the power pins are connected correctly.  The one thing I forgot was the 10uF cap for the internal regulator, but that shouldnt cause a power to ground short.  This test is unpowered as well.  I did  power it up, but once I saw the supply was being dragged down I shut it off and did the check.  The fact that the cap wasn't there...could maybe have damaged the PIC?  

     
---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

2007\10\16@172216 by Spehro Pefhany

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Quoting alan smith <micro_eng2spam@spam@yahoo.com>:

> Has anyone used the 44 QFP package for this part?  This is one of  
> those strange things thats going to turn out to be somthing  
> else..but so far it points to the chip.  I have a 3.3V power to  
> ground short, so I used a short sniffer to isolate the area, then  
> started to isolate it further.  The short is measuring less than 4  
> ohms from power to ground.
>
>   I lifted the two power pins on the chip and it cleared it up.    
> I've verified that the chip is down correctly, and that the power  
> pins are connected correctly.  The one thing I forgot was the 10uF  
> cap for the internal regulator, but that shouldnt cause a power to  
> ground short.  This test is unpowered as well.  I did  power it up,  
> but once I saw the supply was being dragged down I shut it off and  
> did the check.  The fact that the cap wasn't there...could maybe  
> have damaged the PIC?

More likely a difficult-to-see short such as a bit of solder behind
the pins that disappeared when you unsoldered them.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany





'[SX] SX48 Controller Board?'
2007\12\29@101907 by ringlordn/a
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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, ringlord wrote:

All--

I recently discovered the SX Controller Board which uses the SX28 chip. My question may be very simple and very obvious . . . to everyone but me!


I wonder why Parallax chose the 28 pin SX chip instead of the 48 pin SX chip with the extra I/O pins for the product?


It APPEARS that the SX chip is pretty much standalone except for power and the external ocillators needed. (I am nowhere near to being well-versed in electronics.) Is there a schematic describing such a cobbled-together device?


Thanks!


--Bill
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2007\12\29@122920 by Henrymoun/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, Henrymou wrote:

Bill
It could be that people need a programming board to program the SX28 because it is a DIP chip
I don't ever put the SX controller board on a project because it's size dosn't go anywhere.
Recently I made a smaller SX board because of this.
Thats why I think it uses the SX28
bye
-Henry
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'[SX] Source of Cable assembly for Prof Dev Board?'
2008\02\01@105641 by johncouturen/a
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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, johncouture wrote:

On the Professional Development Board, in the upper right corner, is a dual row connector ("X1") for an LCD panel.  Does anyone know of a source for a 6-9" cable that will connect from that to a STRAIGHT, SINGLE ROW connector of 14 pins (something similar to the picture attached below).

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2008\02\01@115132 by PJMontyn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, PJMonty wrote:

John,
How about this:

http://www.toby.co.uk/content/catalogue/products.asp?series=A04a-xx-BT1-G
I stumbled around for a bit trying to find this.  For what it is worth, my Google search terms were:

single row idc
I mention this in case the above link doesn't work out for you and you want to pick up where I left off.

Thanks,
PeterM
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2008\02\01@121253 by johncouturen/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, johncouture wrote:

Thank you Peter!

You are right though, I was looking for the whole thing already done (for the school).

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2008\02\02@165208 by johncouturen/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, johncouture wrote:

Peter,
You did get me on the right track though!

On Prof Dev Board
14 pin IDC Socket, Dual Row
Mouser # 164-9007, $0.46 ea
On LCD
14 pin IDC Socket, Single Row
Mouser # 581-208284014000030, $3.34
Then ribbon cable between.  
I haven't seen these yet (order pending) but it looks like it will work.  Thank you again Peter.  Sometimes I just need the right search terms.

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2008\02\02@223414 by PJMontyn/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, PJMonty wrote:

John,
I'm glad you took up the baton and found what you needed.  You're right about having correct the search terms, that's why I posted them.  I have a friend who isn't computer savvy at all, but he always seems to know the right terms for Craigslist to find what he's looking for.  When I saw your situation, those were the terms that popped into my head.  They seemed to offer some decent hits.  
Glad to see you found your parts "locally," rather than all the way in the U.K.  I also appreciate the details on the Mouser part numbers.  This is something that I just know I'll need one of these days.

Thanks,
PeterM
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'[SX] Program SX to act as HID device ie keyboard? '
2008\02\06@183018 by gth629en/a

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In SX Microcontrollers, SX/B Compiler and SX-Key Tool, gth629e wrote:

Okay,
Here is what I need to do or find out if it is possible.

Lets say I have 20 standard I/O switches. With the propeller chip, can you detect those switches and program it to send ASCII keyboard codes to the PC via PS/2 or USB.

So pretty much I need to detect when a switch has been closed and in return send the ASCII command to computer. Like making your own keyboard. Also it would have to be able to realize when a key is continuously pressed.

I am at whits end and I know this has to be possible with some kind of PIC.


Please let me know if you have any idea. Thanks
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'[EE] What Kind of Wire for Veroboard?'
2008\12\23@194502 by solarwind
picon face
This may seem like yet another noob question, but I don't want to find
out the hard way half way through my project. I have tried to google
the answer to this, honestly, but didn't get many results. Wikipedia
didn't have much information on this either.

What kind of wire should I use for prototyping on Veroboards? For
breadboards, I use thin, single strand copper wire because it's stiff
and it sticks into the hole easily. However, veroboard does not
require that stiffness and the stiffness may actually be detrimental?

All I know about wire is that there are single stranded, multiple
stranded, thin and thick and a whole bunch of specialty types. Which
should I use for Veroboards? I don't want the wire occupying half the
board so I think it should be pretty thin, and I think I should get
the multiple stranded type for flexability. Also, I think the multiple
stranded copper wire will allow the solder to get between the gaps in
the wire easier, but I'm not too sure on this. What are your opinions
on this?

Please share your success stories as well.

--
solarwind

2008\12\23@200932 by marty

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> .
>
> What kind of wire should I use for prototyping on Veroboards? For

> All I know about wire is that there are single stranded, multiple
> stranded, thin and thick and a whole bunch of specialty types. Which
> should I use for Veroboards? I don't want the wire occupying half the
> board so I think it should be pretty thin, and I think I should get
> the multiple stranded type for flexability. Also, I think the multiple
> stranded copper wire will allow the solder to get between the gaps in
> the wire easier, but I'm not too sure on this. What are your opinions
> on this?
Solid strand for sure. It doesn't bunch up through a hole, and you can
route it by hand with whatever corners are needed.
How much board is occupied by wires is determined by the distance
between holes not wire diameter. Unless you use big wire like mains
cable.

2008\12\23@201006 by Detrick Merz

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I tend to take apart solid conductor ethernet cable and use it for
most things I need to point-to-point wire.  The stranded stuff, for my
fingers anyway, seems harder to use in those situations.  Most of what
I'm doing is Manhatten style construction, a bit different from vero
boards, but not terribly.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 7:44 PM, solarwind <EraseMEx.solarwind.xRemoveMEspamSTOPspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\12\23@202518 by Dwayne Reid

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face
At 05:44 PM 12/23/2008, solarwind wrote:

>What kind of wire should I use for prototyping on Veroboards?

I like to use the #24 solid wire used by the telephone company in
their multi-pair cables.  Solid conductor cat5 cable is similar but
there are only 5 colors (8 color pairs) in cat5 cable vs the 10 color
(50 color pairs) inside 25 pair or larger telco cable.

Give your local telephone company a call and talk to an installer.  A
few feet of 50 pair or 100 pair cable will last you a VERY long time.

dwayne


--
Dwayne Reid   <RemoveMEdwaynerKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2008\12\23@214301 by Michael Algernon

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Wirewrap wire  ( 30 gauge solid ) can be pretty wonderful for certain  
uses.  With a wirewrap tool, you can really rock.
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103243
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062640
MA
>
> On Dec 23, 2008, at 6:23 PM, Dwayne Reid wrote:
>
> At 05:44 PM 12/23/2008, solarwind wrote:
>
>> What kind of wire should I use for prototyping on Veroboards?
>
>


 WFT Electronics
Denver, CO   720 222 1309
" dent the UNIVERSE "

All ideas, text, drawings and audio , that are originated by WFT  
Electronics ( and it's principals ),  that are included with this  
signature text are to be deemed to be released to the public domain as  
of the date of this communication .

2008\12\23@221052 by solarwind

picon face
Everyone here is recommending solid (single stranded) wire. Why is
that? I always thought it was stiffer and harder to work with...

2008\12\23@230653 by apptech

face
flavicon
face
> Everyone here is recommending solid (single stranded) wire. Why is
> that?

Experience :-)..
Overall multistrand tends to be much harder for use with vero.
You can suit the wire size used to the required stiffness.
Multi strand wire tends to lead to spread strands and intertrack solder
bridges.
The stiffness can be used to "set" the wires into a desired position leading
to a neater layout.

I have used both. and strander has some advantages, but I'd usually use
single strand.

MA's suggestion of wire-wrap wire bears looking at. This is VERY thin wire,
usually silver plated, under a tenacious insulation layer. You can get PTFE
insulated or "Kynar" - a PTFE relataive. You can wrap Kynar around a hot
solderig iron tip and it just looks unhappy but largely ignores the iron.
Kynar is very tricky to strip - you need a sharp edge and some practice.
Broken wires while strippong are the initial norm. Despote this Kynar
insulated WW wire is often an excellent choice for solder breadboarding. Not
too good for plug in breadboards due to small size.
.
  Russell

> I always thought it was stiffer and harder to work with...

Yes, often.
No.


2008\12\23@232836 by solarwind

picon face
On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 10:58 PM, apptech <spamBeGoneapptechspam@spam@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Alright, stiff, single-stranded wire it is then. I have loads of that
lying around.

--
solarwind

2008\12\24@041504 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>What kind of wire should I use for prototyping on Veroboards?
>For breadboards, I use thin, single strand copper wire because
>it's stiff and it sticks into the hole easily. However,
>veroboard does not require that stiffness and the stiffness
>may actually be detrimental?

As with many answers, the answer is 'it depends ...'

If using veroboard with copper strips, then what a lot of people do is use
insulated wire on the component side, poked through the holes, and soldered
to the tracks. Such wire can be single or multi-strand. Many people find
single strand is good for this, as it can be cut to length, the ends
stripped of insulation, and then the bare ends bent at the correct spacing
for the pair of holes that they are to go through.

Single strand wire from old telephone cabling is an ideal size for this
purpose, thinner stuff like wire wrap wire is too thin. Wire wrap wire is
ideal for the purpose of running patch wires when modifying PCBs, as it can
be nicely wrapped around the pins of components.

Multistrand wire is more difficult to do this with, as it doesn't hold the
shape well when attempting to bend it to go through the holes, and when
soldering the strands can tend to splay out and short to other tracks.

2008\12\24@042604 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Everyone here is recommending solid (single stranded) wire.
>Why is that?

For the purpose you want it is the easiest to work with.

>I always thought it was stiffer and harder to work with...

Telephone wire (as recommended by several of us) is a small enough size that
it is easy to use. If you attempt to use wire wrap wire, as someone
suggested, you will find that it is too fine and will spring all over the
place at just the wrong moment. Telephone wire is just that bit heavier, and
so doesn't suffer from the same issue, but is not that heavy that it gets to
be awkward to handle.

2008\12\24@093202 by Jake Anderson

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face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>> Everyone here is recommending solid (single stranded) wire.
>> Why is that?
>>    
>
> For the purpose you want it is the easiest to work with.
>
>  
>> I always thought it was stiffer and harder to work with...
>>    
>
> Telephone wire (as recommended by several of us) is a small enough size that
> it is easy to use. If you attempt to use wire wrap wire, as someone
> suggested, you will find that it is too fine and will spring all over the
> place at just the wrong moment. Telephone wire is just that bit heavier, and
> so doesn't suffer from the same issue, but is not that heavy that it gets to
> be awkward to handle.
>
>  
Cat-5 whilst readily available isn't as good as genuine "telephone wire"
The insulation on cat-5 shrinks back when its heated which is less than
awesome when you solder it, and untwisting the pairs is a PITA.

2008\12\24@093559 by solarwind

picon face
And by telephone wire, do you guys mean the wire that you connect from
the wall socket to your phone?

2008\12\24@115920 by Forrest Christian

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face
solarwind wrote:
> And by telephone wire, do you guys mean the wire that you connect from
> the wall socket to your phone?
>  
No, the type in the wall.

It's usually about 28GA and has 4 to 8 conductors, solid.   You can get
raw cable like this from most home improvement and/or hardware stores.  
I think walmart even has it.   It's usually beige or grey.    CAT5 cable
would also work (the type for in-wall, which is solid, not the stranded
for patch cables), but it is fairly heavily twisted.   If you get real
"phone" or CAT3 cable, it isn't as nearly tightly wound, so it is easier
to work with.

My main gripe is that the PVC insulation tends to melt easily when
soldering, plus it tends to "shrink" away from the heat...  that is, if
you have a wire which is stripped to a certain length, and then you
apply heat, the insulation actually ends up moving away from the heat
source.   I've been thinking of buying some teflon (PTFE) or similar
high-temp wire just for this reason, but haven't really found a good
source for smaller spools in assorted colors.

-forrest

2008\12\24@121043 by Joseph Bento

face
flavicon
face

On Dec 24, 2008, at 7:35 AM, solarwind wrote:

> And by telephone wire, do you guys mean the wire that you connect from
> the wall socket to your phone?
> --  

No.  It's the #24 solid multicolored wire that you'll see (for  
example) if you look at your company's punchdown panel in the phone  
closet.  Or if you see the telephone man servicing a distribution  
panel at the street, you'll see hundreds of colored pairs of such  
wire.  Usually, an inquiry to a service man will yield a few feet of  
such cable that will have upwards of over 100 conductors.  Take an x-
acto knife and slice the jacket and you'll have enough wire to last a  
very long time.

Joe

2008\12\24@145929 by Philip Pemberton

face
flavicon
face
solarwind wrote:
> What kind of wire should I use for prototyping on Veroboards? For
> breadboards, I use thin, single strand copper wire because it's stiff
> and it sticks into the hole easily. However, veroboard does not
> require that stiffness and the stiffness may actually be detrimental?

Use the same stuff you use for breadboards. For me that's 24 or 26 SWG
single-core insulated tinned copper wire. Over here, it's sometimes known as
"bell wire" (though I have no idea why...)

If you're feeling cheap, get a piece of Cat5 cable, strip the outer jacket and
use the 8 inner cores. It's not ideal, but it'll work.

--
Phil.
RemoveMEpiclistspam_OUTspamphilpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

2008\12\24@150636 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Probably was (still is) use to connect house doorbell push buttons,
batteries to the solenoid door bell. :)

Philip Pemberton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\12\24@171124 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Dec 24, 2008, at 8:59 AM, Forrest Christian wrote:

> My main gripe is that the PVC insulation tends to melt easily when
> soldering, plus it tends to "shrink" away from the heat...

"plenum grade" cable (CAT5 or whatever) will have teflon insulation, I  
think.
I think it's pretty random whether a random cat5 patch cable pulled  
from the bin of "these would cost too much to untangle" cables will be  
teflon or PVC.
Teflon is somewhat annoying to strip compared to PVC.  Silicone  
insulated wire is a joy to solder, but I've never seen solid-core, and  
it's expensive and "thick."

WW wire, with "kynar" insulation is a nice compromise, but it's  
getting hard to find at reasonable prices.

BillW

2008\12\24@180837 by Jinx

face picon face
> Teflon is somewhat annoying to strip compared to PVC

Word

Some units for light aircraft I unwittingly wired with typical hook-up
wire had to be re-done with special fire-resistant wire. What a thoroughly
enjoyable day that was ;-{

2008\12\25@125823 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Some units for light aircraft I unwittingly wired with
>typical hook-up wire had to be re-done with special
>fire-resistant wire. What a thoroughly enjoyable day
>that was ;-{

That sounds like it would be halogen free cable. All the wiring in the
underground stuff at CERN is done with halogen free cable, and a good few
other underground installations as well. Used for good reason - guess what
it would be like if the sort of fumes you get when melting ordinary PVC
cable with a soldering iron occurred in an enclosed space you cannot get out
of quickly would be like. I somehow suspect an airplane falls into that
category ...


But I don't think that halogen free cable counts as Teflon. It is somewhere
between Teflon and PVC for stripping ease. Both Teflon and HF cable really
need heated tweezer type strippers to make a decent job.

2008\12\25@141629 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
The more common aircraft electrical wire meets MIL-W-22759. Here is a
link to partial specs. Click on the insulation link for info on the
insulation. I believe that some of the important issues are
flammability, fatigue, and abrasion resistance. I use the stuff around
the house for severe applications.
http://nepp.nasa.gov/npsl/Wire/22759/22759.htm

And for sources would suggest for small quantities
www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=11650/index.html
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php

Note it is stranded, and not suitable for the push-in boards. I use
mostly a speedex stripper, but it strips easily, but don't knick the
conductors or early fatigue failure is likely.

Alan B. Pearce wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\12\25@165411 by Jinx

face picon face
> But I don't think that halogen free cable counts as Teflon

No, it wouldn't. Teflon (polytetrafluoroethylene) has an awful lot of
halogen in it

> All the wiring in the underground stuff at CERN is done with
> halogen free cable, and a good few other underground installations
> as well

You recall the warnings about overheating Teflon-coated cookware ?
The hydrogen fluoride (IIRC) fumes can off your favourite budgie, birds
being particularly sensitive to things that can kill them

2008\12\25@221219 by Forrest W Christian

flavicon
face
I think that all of the mentioned characteristics are *definitely* good
for aircraft use:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair_Flight_111

Short version:  Crash was believed to be caused by arcing created by
condensation entering cracked insulation in aging entertainment system
wiring.  Subsequent fire burned quickly through the aircraft due to use
of flammable insulating blankets.

-forrest

Carl Denk wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\12\28@203342 by Dave Lag

picon face
Carl Denk wrote:
> The more common aircraft electrical wire meets MIL-W-22759. Here is a
> link to partial specs. Click on the insulation link for info on the
> insulation. I believe that some of the important issues are
> flammability, fatigue, and abrasion resistance. I use the stuff around
> the house for severe applications.
> http://nepp.nasa.gov/npsl/Wire/22759/22759.htm
>
> And for sources would suggest for small quantities
> www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=11650/index.html
> www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php
>
> Note it is stranded, and not suitable for the push-in boards. I use
> mostly a speedex stripper, but it strips easily, but don't knick the
> conductors or early fatigue failure is likely.

Current recommended aircraft wiring would be 22759/86A,
Teflon/Kapton/Teflon layers and yes, the strippers are $pecialized
D


'[EE] Any Suggestions for My Board?'
2009\03\29@215903 by solarwind
picon face
--00221532cba03a563a04664c6d5c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm going to start off with something simple to etch. It's just going
to be a simple board with a space for a 28 pin PIC, a 0.1 uF
capacitor, and a 6 pin ICSP header which the PICKIT2 can attach to.

Image: http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6762/imagetdl.png

The inside set of pins will be for the PIC, the outside set of pins
will be for header pins that will plug directly into a breadboard for
easy prototyping.

If anyone has any suggestions for my board, I would greatly appreciate it.

--
solarwind

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2009\03\29@223454 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Mar 29, 2009, at 6:59 PM, solarwind wrote:

> If anyone has any suggestions for my board, I would greatly  
> appreciate it.

See my "Instructable" on hobbyist design rules:
  http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-hobbyist-PCBs-with-professional-CAD-tools-by-/

Make your pads bigger.  Make your power supply traces bigger too.  
(shucks, make ALL your traces bigger.)  Your bypass cap should be  
closer to the supply pins.

This interferes with running traces between pins, which you've done  
twice (and at least once (on the left, between pin 1 and 2 of the ICSP  
connector) for no particularly good reason.  OTOH, this may be good  
practice...

It looks like the holes for your connector pins are the same size as  
those for the PIC and cap pins, which will result in "big" holes for  
the IC/cap (ok), or holes that are too small for the connector pins  
(less OK.)

BillW

2009\03\29@223750 by cdb

flavicon
face


:: I'm going to start off with something simple to etch. It's just
:: going
:: to be a simple board with a space for a 28 pin PIC, a 0.1 uF
:: capacitor, and a 6 pin ICSP header which the PICKIT2 can attach to.

If this is your first time ever for etching a PCB, you might want to
make your tracks a little wider where you can. This means that if you
get the etching time or developing time (if using photo transfer
method) slightly off and you get poor definition at the edge of the
tracks, you'll still have plenty of copper available to do the job.

Once you've sussed out temperature and time, then revert back to
standard tracks.

Colin
--
cdb, colinspamspambtech-online.co.uk on 30/03/2009

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359




2009\03\29@225332 by eCHIP

flavicon
face
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Hi,

> The inside set of pins will be for the PIC, the outside set of pins
> will be for header pins that will plug directly into a breadboard for
> easy prototyping.

If you have the header being 300 mil wide, then you can plug this module
into the breadboard or the final target board.

The white connector is for ICSP/ICD and the blue DIP switch is to
isolate the RB6 and RB7 which may or may not be necessary.

See the attached picture.

Cheers

Ravi



part 2 28312 bytes content-type:image/gif; name=000_0291.gif (decode)


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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2009\03\30@034735 by Clint Sharp

picon face
In message <spam_OUTa94764e0903291859x3b99a6ffuaed0b8550224551dspam_OUTspamspam_OUTmail.gmail.com>,
solarwind <x.solarwind.xspam_OUTspamgmail.com> writes
>I'm going to start off with something simple to etch. It's just going
>to be a simple board with a space for a 28 pin PIC, a 0.1 uF
>capacitor, and a 6 pin ICSP header which the PICKIT2 can attach to.
You're going to be using the internal oscillator on the PIC?

I'd add space for a crystal and associated capacitors. Move the 0.1uF
cap to the side of the PIC so it's immediately next to the chip with
negligible track length, route the ICSP traces so they don't have to
pass between IC pins.

Make the header pin holes larger.

 A few extra millimetres of board won't hurt (it's not being crammed
into a shuttle payload) and will make it *much* easier to achieve a
board that will etch reliably every time because you can and should use
fatter traces. Consider adding a power LED.

When you build it, find header pins like;

uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProd
uct&R=2518402

so you can attach scope probes etc. easily

{Quote hidden}

--
Clint Sharp

2009\03\30@072151 by olin piclist

face picon face
solarwind wrote:
> The inside set of pins will be for the PIC, the outside set of pins
> will be for header pins that will plug directly into a breadboard for
> easy prototyping.

If you mean one of those solderless breadboards, that will be awkward.  Your
board looks wide enough to cover up all the holes of the columns you plug
the board into.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2009\03\30@105615 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Mar 30, 2009, at 4:22 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> If you mean one of those solderless breadboards, that will be  
> awkward.  Your
> board looks wide enough to cover up all the holes of the columns you  
> plug
> the board into.

I've seen wider boards commercially sold as "breadboard compatible."
Breadboards will accomadate "DIPS" up to 1.3 inches wide, and this one  
seems a "typical" 0.8 inches (with pins on .5 inch centers, which  
isn't so bad ...
The wires don't have to plug in to the breadboard AFTER your PCB; they  
can go underneath, too.

BillW


'[EE] PC-based test system or USB I/O board?'
2009\12\26@122559 by PICdude
flavicon
face
Hi all,

I have been meaning to learn USB and to create a PC-based test  
interface with it, so that I can use a PC to simulate various  
sensors/triggers/signals to test products, and in same cases be able  
to measure the product responses and determine if they're correct,  
etc.  But time is difficult to come by lately, and I'm now looking for  
something off-the-shelf.

I would need the following I/O...
- At least 5 digital outputs (to simulate switching to ground, sending  
5V and 12V power to the product under test, etc)
- 2 analog voltage outputs (8-bit is fine).  I can use a couple D2A's  
for this, assuming I have a couple SPI/I2C outputs, or 16 extra  
digital outputs
- 2 variable resistance outputs (I can use digital pots again,  
assuming I have enough digital outputs or 2 I2C/SPI outputs)
- 4 digital inputs to test outputs from the products.
- At least 36 (44 would be nice) extra inputs, which I'll use later  
with phototransitors to "read" some 7-segment displays, and have the  
PC interpret the results on the products.
- 2 analog inputs.

On the PC side I'd like it to have a direct USB connection to the PC  
(no serial-to-USB interface).   I'll need to write code so that the  
operator will select the product model/configuration, and it will  
setup the correct signals, tell the operator what the display should  
show, and they can click "pass" or "fail" to move to the next test  
step, so I need some type of scripting language on the PC side.

Anyone doing anything similar?  Any commercial products do this  
already, at a non arm-and-leg price?  A generic I/O board with enough  
analog and digital I/O's would be nice, but I would need the PC-side  
scripting language to send/read the signals.

Cheers,
-Neil.



2009\12\26@131345 by YES NOPE9

flavicon
face
Consider a USB to i2c adapter.  i2c modules of all types abound.
I could loan you my adapter that I bought from
                     http://www.i2cchip.com/    ($70)
They also have chips and modules ranging from $4 up.

Gus


{Quote hidden}

> --

2009\12\26@194031 by PICdude

flavicon
face
I like this.  A single I2C to USB interface with a bunch of I2C to  
A/D, D/A, digital I/O interfaces would be a relatively simple  
solution.  If I am going to create my own PCB for this, I might as  
well go with the chip option.  Now I'm re-thinking why not just use a  
USB PIC and force myself to learn that.  I'll sleep on that.

The big open concern is the PC-side programming.  I'm not sure I want  
to get a full compiled development environment and mess with USB port  
programming etc.  What would be nice is if there's an API set that  
lets me control the I2C devices from a generic scripting language  
(perhaps sh, bash, etc under Linux or something similar under Win),  
and gives me simple function calls such as read input port, set output  
bit, etc).  I need to research that.

Cheers,
-Neil.


Quoting YES NOPE9 <RemoveMEyesKILLspamspam@spam@nope9.com>:

{Quote hidden}

2009\12\26@200256 by YES NOPE9

flavicon
face
The USB to i2c chip emulates a serial port.  I think that google may  
even reveal PIC code for this.
Talking to a serial port simplifies life for OS X, Windows and Linux.
All sorts of development environments support serial ports.  Python,  
Ruby , shells , F-script , RealBasic ( free for Linux )
Gus


On Dec 26, 2009, at 5:40 PM, PICdude wrote:

I like this.  A single I2C to USB interface with a bunch of I2C to
A/D, D/A, digital I/O interfaces would be a relatively simple
solution.  If I am going to create my own PCB for this, I might as
well go with the chip option.  Now I'm re-thinking why not just use a
USB PIC and force myself to learn that.  I'll sleep on that.

The big open concern is the PC-side programming.  I'm not sure I want
to get a full compiled development environment and mess with USB port
programming etc.  What would be nice is if there's an API set that
lets me control the I2C devices from a generic scripting language
(perhaps sh, bash, etc under Linux or something similar under Win),
and gives me simple function calls such as read input port, set output
bit, etc).  I need to research that.

Cheers,
-Neil.


Quoting YES NOPE9 <yesspamBeGonespam.....nope9.com>:

{Quote hidden}


'[EE] PC-based test system or USB I/O board?'
2010\01\03@183735 by Alex Harford
face picon face
On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 9:25 AM, PICdude <KILLspampicdude3spam.....narwani.org> wrote:

> On the PC side I'd like it to have a direct USB connection to the PC
> (no serial-to-USB interface).   I'll need to write code so that the
> operator will select the product model/configuration, and it will
> setup the correct signals, tell the operator what the display should
> show, and they can click "pass" or "fail" to move to the next test
> step, so I need some type of scripting language on the PC side.
>
> Anyone doing anything similar?

I am.  I've found the Phidgets boards to be useful.  Since they are
USB, you can just throw a hub in there and scale easily.
http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?category=0

The really nice thing is that they have a Python API (among others),
which makes it simple to integrate with manufacturing tests.  wxPython
is a good gui toolkit to use.

My suggestion would be to minimize keyboard/mouse interaction to avoid
operator error, do your products have a barcode that could be scanned
to determine model / configuration?

Alex

'[EE] Cheap ARM board?'
2010\01\16@002058 by Vitaliy

face
flavicon
face
Hi List,

A customer asked if we can supply a custom solution that would include an
ARM processor, 8Mb of SDRAM, and 8Mb of flash. The target price is $20 or
less. It sounds like something that should be available off-the-shelf, but
so far I'm only finding boards with flash and SDRAM in the Kb range
(Coridium et al)

If an off-the-shelf board with these specs does not exist, how hard would it
be to build one? I imagine not very hard, but then again we've never worked
with ARM chips. Is it realistic to spend <$20/ea to manufacture it?

Vitaliy

2010\01\16@011608 by YES NOPE9

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

It looks like it would be tough going.....
Check these guys out
http://www.newmicros.com/
click on TiniARM
Gus


'[OT]Around the circuit board?'
2010\05\06@075312 by cdb
flavicon
face
I hve heard of round table discussions and sitting around a table, but
a job ad for an analog design engineer?

'The successful candidate will be able to use their design and testing
knowledge around the circuit board , power supplies and firmware in
this R&D environment. '

Colin
--
cdb,  on 6/05/2010




'[EE] Copper clad perfboard?'
2011\12\31@170953 by Eric Kort
flavicon
face
So my latest electronics project worked great, and it looked great
(IMHO) on the top side of the perfboard, but was a bit of a mess on
the bottom (wiring) side which was a mix of bent leads and hookup wire
used to make the necessary connections.  As a result I started to
think about moving up to photoresist PCB etching.  But it occurs to me
that the process would be significantly simpler if I did not need to
drill the through holes.  I am curious to know if anyone knows of a
source for copper clad perfboard (i.e., not just pads around the
holes, but completely plated on one side).  With a bit of care with
registration, it seems one could etch the traces on such perfboard and
then the holes would be already be there!

Does anyone know where copper clad perfboard could be obtained?  Or is
that a fundamentally dumb idea?

-Eri

2011\12\31@171929 by Adam Field

flavicon
face
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Eric Kort <spam_OUTeric.kortspamKILLspamexsilico.com> wrote:
> So my latest electronics project worked great, and it looked great
> (IMHO) on the top side of the perfboard, but was a bit of a mess on
> the bottom (wiring) side which was a mix of bent leads and hookup wire
> used to make the necessary connections.  As a result I started to
> think about moving up to photoresist PCB etching.  But it occurs to me
> that the process would be significantly simpler if I did not need to
> drill the through holes.  I am curious to know if anyone knows of a
> source for copper clad perfboard (i.e., not just pads around the
> holes, but completely plated on one side).  With a bit of care with
> registration, it seems one could etch the traces on such perfboard and
> then the holes would be already be there!
>
> Does anyone know where copper clad perfboard could be obtained?  Or is
> that a fundamentally dumb idea?
>
> -Eric

Not exactly a whole clad bottom, but a compromise between connectivity
and isolation:

http://www.busboard.us/#BreadBoards

Look at all the patterns they have. I've been using the breadboard
pattern replicas and the 6H pattern. There's also plain stripboard
which you can cut the traces where appropriate. There is an actual
tool to make the cuts, but I'm not sure what you would call it.

2011\12\31@175150 by KPL

picon face
I have been trying to switch from protoboards to homemade pcb's
recently (may be a fifth time in last few years :) and I am not quite
sure yet if that's worth the trouble at all. I can build a circuit on
a protoboard much faster than design a pcb that I can really make and
actually produce it. It is just a lot of work to properly design a
pcb, which can be really made at home, that means preferably
single-sided, with as little jumpers as possible, with not too many
traces between DIP pins, etc.
Finally, who cares what it looks like, and you can even make
protoboard look quite good, if doing it with care. The main problem
remains - it can be really difficult to replace a component in a wired
protoboard.

On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 00:19, Adam Field <RemoveMEadamRemoveMEspamEraseMEbadtech.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\12\31@180936 by John Gardner

picon face
That's awesome, Adam. Thanks.

Jac

2011\12\31@184748 by IVP

face picon face
>As a result I started to think about moving up to photoresist
> PCB etching

Could I humbly suggest you DO look at drilling your own ?

I've not used perf board (Vero) for a very long time though I do
use breadboards, because 0.1" is not dead just yet

But for an equally very long time I've etched and drilled my own
prototype boards as so many parts are not 0.1". And in fact DIP
is more commonly no longer an option for ICs

The toner-transfer method is quick, cheap, simple and repeatable. A
$20 mini-drill and 1mm tungsten carbide bit is all you need for 99%
of through-hole. 1.2mm, 1.5mm and 3mm steel bits will cover the 1%

For the minimal investment it is so worth it

Jo

2011\12\31@190413 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
I use a Dremel drill press to drill the holes. The center of the pad etched away makes a good punch mark to get the drill centered. :)

> $20 mini-drill and 1mm tungsten carbide bit is all you need for 99%
> of through-hole. 1.2mm, 1.5mm and 3mm steel bits will cover the 1%
>
> For the minimal investment it is so worth it
>
>
>

2011\12\31@200550 by Joe Wronski

flavicon
face
I don't know if you've considered another possibility we used to call "drill and mill".  A drill like a mini hole saw is used to drill the through holes and it also creates a pad from the hole saw perimeter.  As a tech in the 80's, I made many  boards this way.  We would create a layout on 0.1" graph paper (now, I would do it on a PC and print it, but that and a useable printer were big bucks back then), tape it to plain copperclad, and punch the hole locations, then "drill and mill".  I wouldn't know where to find the mill drills now.

Joe W


On 12/31/2011 5:09 PM, Eric Kort wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -Eric

2011\12\31@201945 by Chris Roper

picon face
It all depends on your experience level and the reason to create a PCB.

I  used to etch my own boards, many years ago, but the chemicals I
used back then are considered a NO NO now, even if I could find them I
doubt I would use them.
Just disposing of them is an issue that we were not aware off.

If you are creating a, low frequency, low current,  one off device then
Viro Board works well.

If you are prototyping on a Breadboard then the Breadboard format PCB's
from AdaFruit are great.

If you need to run off a batch or intend to go into production, then a PCB
service is a must.

Personally I think home etching is a thing of the past

2011\12\31@201955 by IVP

face picon face
>I use a Dremel drill press to drill the holes

Carl, must admit I don't like a press as much as hand-held for
very smaller diameter bits, especially the composite ones which
tend to be brittle. I hold the drill with the right hand and use the
left hand index finger as a feedback to gauge the pressure and
as a stabiliser. For 2mm and above I'm OK with a press though

Eric, here's a board I finished yesterday

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/4bit_sm.jpg

Overall it would have taken less time than trying to fudge about
with irregular components (eg SMT parts inc. SD card socket)
on 0.1" board. And it's tidy and robust enough to last for many
months of development. One additional benefit is that, because
of the shift towards cheaper SMT packages, the ability to make
and drill your own is now more often cost effective than it used
to be (at the prototype/short run stage)

Jo

2011\12\31@211634 by John Ferrell

face
flavicon
face
On 12/31/2011 8:19 PM, Chris Roper wrote:
> It all depends on your experience level and the reason to create a PCB.
>
> I  used to etch my own boards, many years ago, but the chemicals I
> used back then are considered a NO NO now, even if I could find them I
> doubt I would use them.
> Just disposing of them is an issue that we were not aware off.
>
> If you are creating a, low frequency, low current,  one off device then
> Viro Board works well.
>
> If you are prototyping on a Breadboard then the Breadboard format PCB's
> from AdaFruit are great.
>
> If you need to run off a batch or intend to go into production, then a PCB
> service is a must.
>
> Personally I think home etching is a thing of the past.
You will change your mind if you visit
tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
and search YouTube for Printed circuit boards. I am short on experience on the current resources but it appears to me that custom parts and prototypes are easier than ever. Jinx just answered a question I had about drilling and I hope to try the toner transfer method this week. There seem to be a lot of safe etchants available as well. Other than using some of the readily free software I plan to hand draw a board at 2X size, scan and reduce it to the proper scale and complete it. My laser printer (less than $100) will print 4x6 and may be 3X5 paper so small stuff will be practical.

The expert services like ExpressPCB do a very professional job should I need a production run. Things have never been this good for HomeBrewing before!

-- John Ferrell W8CCW
"The man who complains about the way the
ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it."

2011\12\31@222913 by IVP

face picon face
> using some of the readily free software I plan to hand draw a
> board at 2X size, scan and reduce it to the proper scale and
> complete it

I've two methods -
(1) tiff output from Eagle
(2) .gif or .bmp output from a graphics program (eg Paint Shop Pro)

like at the bottom of this page, and always re-sized/re-scaled to 600dpi
with the dimensions included to remind me when I use it again

http://www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/io/dev/lcd/DOGM.htm

After doing so many I can copy/paste between library boards without
needing to use Eagle, even for routing

> My laser printer (less than $100) will print 4x6 and may be 3X5 paper
> so small stuff will be practical

Printers are regularly on special as loss leaders. The Canon LBP6000
was on special here for NZ$49 and I bought it specifically for toner
transfer. No intention of wasting it on documents. My paper is glossy
clay-based. 30 minutes in a warm soak and it peels off easily

> The expert services like ExpressPCB do a very professional job
> should I need a production run. Things have never been this good
> for HomeBrewing before!

Of course I use professionals for clients, if that's what they want, or
quantities where it simply makes sense (and I appreciate the varied
opinions about what makes sense). Most often I deal with prototypes
and I want a board right now. And I'll be honest, there is a satisfaction
to doing it yourself, and the week isn't so full that a spare hour or two
can't be found

Jo

2011\12\31@223011 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Everyone has their own preferences, and I respect that. One needs to try different things within the range of supplies and equipment available, then settle on their favorite. My Dremel press is an older (ancient) model. I like the feed with turning a thumb knob. Also the table allows easy sliding with 1 hand for  accurate location. But I must admit, my PCB's are small, generally less than 4" square, but then again, it wouldn't be hard to make the Dremel table larger.  Just a quick 1/4 turn back an forth. The newer models feed with a lever which would be tiresome drilling a zillion holes. I also have a Delta floor drill press with 5/8" chuck. It is definitely to big and clumsy for PCB work, even with a small chuck that chucks in the big chuck :)

On 12/31/2011 8:19 PM, IVP wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\12\31@230154 by IVP

face picon face
> I also have a Delta floor drill press with 5/8" chuck. It is
> definitely to big and clumsy for PCB work, even with a
> small chuck that chucks in the big chuck :)

Ha ! ;-) I've got a set-up like that. One of the better features
of inexpensive drills with pretty good chucks and gearboxes
is that when the cheap as s*** battery dies you've still got a
pretty good chuck and gearbox left. And at the price who
would feel any remorse cannibalising a chuck that can take a
very small bit and fits in a bench press

At one time I collected a pile of thrown-out battery drills and
re-jigged the motors and gearboxes as curtain pullers. Tough
little things and they work marvellously. On the to-do list for
them are as solar panel trackers and a large semi-mechanical
clock

Jo


'[EE] Copper clad perfboard?'
2012\01\01@040046 by Electron
flavicon
face
At 02.19 2012.01.01, you wrote:
>>I use a Dremel drill press to drill the holes
>
>Carl, must admit I don't like a press as much as hand-held for
>very smaller diameter bits, especially the composite ones which
>tend to be brittle. I hold the drill with the right hand and use the
>left hand index finger as a feedback to gauge the pressure and
>as a stabiliser. For 2mm and above I'm OK with a press though
>
>Eric, here's a board I finished yesterday
>
>http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/4bit_sm.jpg

Is it a PIC32MX120F? :-)

Hey, I too use the pins and then connect wires.. Your board at first
looked like MINE! Very minor details of difference, but if not twins
they would look like brothers. :-)

The pins I use are Harwin pins originally though for prototyping vias.

Are You doing 4bit SDcard access? 8-) Could You tell us more?

Cheers,
MarI/O



>
>Overall it would have taken less time than trying to fudge about
>with irregular components (eg SMT parts inc. SD card socket)
>on 0.1" board. And it's tidy and robust enough to last for many
>months of development. One additional benefit is that, because
>of the shift towards cheaper SMT packages, the ability to make
>and drill your own is now more often cost effective than it used
>to be (at the prototype/short run stage)
>
>Joe
>

2012\01\01@055428 by IVP

face picon face
>>home.clear.net.nz/pages/joecolquitt/4bit_sm.jpg
>
> Is it a PIC32MX120F? :-)

dsPIC

> The pins I use are Harwin pins originally though for prototyping vias

Nah. I'm cheap - component lead cut-offs. I'll use proper SIL pins
if it's something pluggable

> Are You doing 4bit SDcard access?

Having a go. Analysis of proprietary 4-bit devices to try to back-
engineer the CMD and data structure looks promising. SPI transfers
at high speed are practical only up to a point because the card takes
longer to respond to the read command than it does to transfer the
sector requested, ie > 50% of the PIC's time is spent waiting for
data. The sector transfer can be very fast (10s of MHz) but there's
nothing that can be done about the response time in SPI mode

Giving the topic diversion some legitimacy, you would not be able to
experiment with large PICs which are in QFN or TQFP packages if
perf board was your only mounting option

Jo

2012\01\01@085155 by Eric Kort

flavicon
face
> Giving the topic diversion some legitimacy, you would not be able to
> experiment with large PICs which are in QFN or TQFP packages if
> perf board was your only mounting option
>

Right.  I would have thought that the shift from through hole to
surface mount would lead to a resurgence of DIY pcbs, not their death,
but who am I to say?  Regardless, I am often a "late abandoner" (as
opposed to an early adopter).

Nevertheless, after the extensive discussion here I am inclined to
utilize one of the many permutations of perfboard mentioned earlier
for simpler prototypes.  I think I may still etch and drill my own
PCBs for more extensive prototypes, if only so that when my children
are older I can say things like "When I was younger, we used to etch
our own PCBs!  And the components had wires sticking out of them that
we stuck through HOLES!"

Thanks to all for an interesting discussion.

-Eri

2012\01\01@085157 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
No, the original, foreign made chuck died after a couple of years, and I replaced it with a Jacobs industrial quality chuck that only accommodates 1/8" - 5/8" drill bits. Part of the same order was a 1/4" maximum bit size chuck with a 1/4" hex shank, since I knew wanting to drill less than an 1/8" was likely. My drill arsenal also includes industrial quality: 12 volt NiCad battery, 3/8" and 1/2" corded variable speed reversing, a rotohammer, and the Dremel. :) I buy only industrial quality tools, since at least occasionally, I torture with heavy duty use, since only rarely do I need to rely on others for service/repair or construction.
> is that when the cheap as s*** battery dies you've still got a
> pretty good chuck and gearbox left. And at the price who
> would feel any remorse cannibalising a chuck that can take a
> very small bit and fits in a bench press
>

2012\01\01@091022 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> Right.  I would have thought that the shift from through hole to
> surface mount would lead to a resurgence of DIY pcbs, not their death,
> but who am I to say?  Regardless, I am often a "late abandoner" (as
> opposed to an early adopter).

The big problem is that so much SMD stuff is too fine a pitch for handmade PCBs. Realistically 0.5mm pitch would be the finest that one could reliably etch for, but a lot of interesting stuff comes in finer pitch, BGA or one of the many leadless packages which have their own requirements.
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2012\01\01@100242 by Mark Hanchey

flavicon
face
On 1/1/2012 8:51 AM, Eric Kort wrote:

> Right.  I would have thought that the shift from through hole to
> surface mount would lead to a resurgence of DIY pcbs, not their death,
> but who am I to say?  Regardless, I am often a "late abandoner" (as
> opposed to an early adopter).

I have tried the toner transfer method and found it lacking and the cost for making a one off board is way too high using the photo method or sending out to have the board made.  My problem was finding good quality protoboards that were not too expensive. I recently found some great ones  by a company called usa circuits. The boards are 5 x 3.4 , have all plated through holes, and are on a very stiff fiberglass material. Since using these I haven't wanted to make a printed board. The cost is about $4 a board if you buy them 5 at a time, $4.50 each otherwise. Well worth it for the quality you get.
http://usacircuits.com/c/21/protoyping-pcb

Mark

2012\01\01@174605 by IVP

face picon face
> The big problem is that so much SMD stuff is too fine a pitch for
> handmade PCBs. Realistically 0.5mm pitch would be the finest
> that one could reliably etch for, but a lot of interesting stuff comes in
> finer pitch, BGA or one of the many leadless packages which have
> their own requirements

I'd go along with that. A particular 3-axis gyro chip looked very
attractive functionally but is available only in a 3x3mm 16-pin QFN

Once upon a time it was difficult to buy ones and twos. Now you
can buy anything anywhere but it's difficult to use, if not impossible,
without specialist assembly

Aaaaargh

2012\01\01@230941 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi Chris,

Which chemicals are you talking about? The only two common ones I know
of are Ferric Chloride and Ammonium Persulfate. Neither are any more
toxic than common household chemicals as far as I know. Ferric
Chloride is generally considered nasty because of its ability to stain
things permanently, but as long as you dilute it sufficiently, it
should be disposable in a municipal sewer system - indeed, it is
sometimes used in wastewater treatment I think. I am less familiar
with Ammonium Persulfate but I doubt that it is any worse.

Sean


On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Chris Roper <caroperspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2012\01\02@071642 by Chris Roper

picon face
I primarily used  Ferric Chloride and you are correct, if handled properly,
it is not too bad. But we have all kinds of local bylaws now about
disposing of it and as I live in a Flat I don't really have the space to
store and mess with chemicals.

On the other hand, professionally made PCB's are a lot more affordable
these days, not cheep, but if it is for a final project, especially if you
need to make more than one unit, possibly to help defray the cost, PCB
services can do it well and reasonably fast even down to very fine pitch
and include through hole plating and silk screening that
are virtually impossible with home etched boards.

Cheers
Chris

On 2 January 2012 06:09, Sean Breheny <RemoveMEshb7spamBeGonespamRemoveMEcornell.edu> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2012\01\02@194901 by Al Shinn

picon face
About etching pcbs- I recently enjoyed etching with hardware store muriatic acid and drugstore hydrogen peroxide. when you are done with the solution, neutralize the acid and precipitate the copper with baking soda. Trash the solids and down the drain with the now harmless water. I was using the laser printer on toner transfer paper

http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/products/transfer_paper.html

 -- I had not much good luck with glossy magazine paper method

The etchant:   "Mix two parts hydrogen peroxide for every one part hydrochloric acid. When mixed, they form a substance that is a severe skin irritant, and will produce toxic chlorine gas."

http://www.wikihow.com/Etch-a-Circuit-Board
--
Looking forward,
Al Shinn

2012\01\02@202156 by smplx

flavicon
face


On Mon, 2 Jan 2012, Al Shinn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Not wishing to be a kill-joy here BUT...

"two parts hydrogen peroxide for every one part hydrochloric acid"

Doesn't really tell me a lot. What are the concentrations of these liquids before you mix them?

Also, mixing "baking soda" with copper chloride (the result of etching copper metal with HCL and H2O2) does ***NOT*** result in pure water + solids, there will be some copper ions left in solution. You really shouldn't just flush this down the drain as a mater of course.

Regards
Sergio Masc

2012\01\02@212540 by Denny Esterline

picon face
On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 6:24 PM, smplx <KILLspamsmplxspamBeGonespamallotrope.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

No! No! No! Don't throw out this etchant, it's just getting getting good!

It's been a while since I've done any of this but...
--searching......
http://www.piclist.com/techref/postbot.asp?by=time&id=piclist%5C2004%5C09%5C12%5C173932a&author=Denny+Esterline+&tgt=post

(wow, 2004, time flies)
The point is that it's stuff you can buy locally. And
recycle effectively forever. The Hydrogen Peroxide is just the 3% medical
stuff you can get at the pharmacy or grocery store. And the acid is
available at most hardware stores and pool supplies, often called "muratic
acid", it's actual Hydrochloric acid and usually about 30-35%.

I still believe it's the best choice etchant, but I'm far less interested
in homebrew PCBs nowadays. Most of the time I just don't think the
time/value equation works out.

Good luck, please be responsible for your own safety.
-Denn

2012\01\03@135212 by Al Shinn

picon face
Sergio,
I clearly stated "hardware store muriatic acid and drugstore hydrogen peroxide"  Should I have added "full strength"?
There would be only the smallest traces of copper left after precipitating with baking soda.  Copper is not like mercury or lead in that neither of them have a minimum daily requirement - copper does. We use copper pipes for our water, copper coated scrub thingeys, etc, etc. we used to use CuSO4 to kill roots in the sewer lines but that WAS tough on the sewage treatment plants.
If you wish to remove any final traces of copper, first test some of the suspect clear solution with a dollop of household ammonia, any significant copper will turn the resulting solution blue - if the test fails, electrolyze out the remaining copper or even just throw in some steel wool to scavenge the copper out.
What I should have mentioned is that you should not throw away the solution anyway cause "they" say it regenerates with exposure to air and can be used over and over. I don't do that much etching so I toss mine.

"
Not wishing to be a kill-joy here BUT...

"two parts hydrogen peroxide for every one part hydrochloric acid"

Doesn't really tell me a lot. What are the concentrations of these liquids
before you mix them?

Also, mixing "baking soda" with copper chloride (the result of etching
copper metal with HCL and H2O2) does ***NOT*** result in pure water +
solids, there will be some copper ions left in solution. You really
shouldn't just flush this down the drain as a mater of course.

Regards
Sergio Masci
"
--
Looking forward,
Al Shinn

2012\01\04@084923 by smplx

flavicon
face


On Tue, 3 Jan 2012, Al Shinn wrote:

> Sergio,
> I clearly stated "hardware store muriatic acid and drugstore hydrogen
> peroxide"  Should I have added "full strength"?

Al,
"full strength" would have been as useful as "good dollop" :-)

When I first came across this cupric chloride etching system a few years ago, I was intrigued, so I decided to give it a try. I went out and bought some concrete cleaner from a local hardware store (couldn't find muriatic acid but I'd read that "muriatic acid" as supplied by a hardware store is mainly used to clean brickwork and concrete AND the concrete cleaner I found said it contained HCL). It's action on copper metal was very disapointing with and without the drugstore H2O2. I tried forcing the copper into solution by passing a current through it but this didn't help much. I tried other things like bubbling air into the mix (as some other recipes suggest).

So I resorted to using laboratory grade concentrated hydrochloric acid in place of the concrete cleaner. Yep this worked very well but this stuff is hard to get as a hobbyist.

Knowing a little bit about chemistry I was able to tell that the internet homebrew recipe wasn't working. I wonder how many other people have actually tried this and given up in frustration.

So, all in all, without knowing what concentrations are being used, some people might get lucky and it works, while others just give up not understanding what is going wrong.

> There would be only the smallest traces of copper left after
> precipitating with baking soda.  Copper is not like mercury or lead in
> that neither of them have a minimum daily requirement - copper does. We
> use copper pipes for our water, copper coated scrub thingeys, etc, etc.

But these traces are much higher than if the water were just passing through a copper pipe.

> we used to use CuSO4 to kill roots in the sewer lines but that WAS tough
> on the sewage treatment plants.

We also used to use things like mercury and arsenic to treat things like syphilis but that was tough on the patients. We frown on using mercury and arsenic on people now just as we do on putting copper into sewers.

> If you wish to remove any final traces of copper, first test some of the
> suspect clear solution with a dollop of household ammonia, any
> significant copper will turn the resulting solution blue - if the test
> fails, electrolyze out the remaining copper or even just throw in some
> steel wool to scavenge the copper out.

The point isn't that I can remove traces of copper "if I wish to", it's that ***EVERYONE*** who does home etching should be strongly encouraged to.

> What I should have mentioned is that you should not throw away the
> solution anyway cause "they" say it regenerates with exposure to air and
> can be used over and over. I don't do that much etching so I toss mine.
>

Regards
Sergio Masc

2012\01\04@133703 by Al Shinn

picon face
Sergio,
Egg on my face! I etched some copper with the H2O2 and muriatic acid and then precipitated out the copper with baking soda as I suggested. You were right, the remaining solution is too blue (has some copper left) for me to feel good about dumping down the drain, don't even need the ammonia test. I'll try the steel wool to scavenge the remaining Cu.



Looking forward,
Al Shinn



Looking forward,
Al Shinn


On 1/3/2012 10:52 AM, Al Shinn wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2012\01\04@150812 by smplx

flavicon
face


On Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Al Shinn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Hi Al,

Might I suggest that you simply let the neutralised solution evaporate to leave just solid then dispose of all the solid together (possibly together with other metal that is to be recycled).

Regards
Sergio Masci

2012\01\05@234206 by Al Shinn

picon face

Sergio,
Thanks,
And thanks again for "making" me do the experiment to prove myself wrong about simple dropping out the copper with bicarb - don't want to spread false info.
but I have found the trick to get the last tiny bit of copper out of solution. The Baking soda neutralized solution has all but a trace of the copper precipitated out of it but there is still a faint blue tint. A bit of fine steel wool dropped into this solution removes this last trace of copper to the point that even ammonia won't make it turn blue (this is a pretty sensitive test for copper).

By the way, muriatic acid is an entity that is bought at the hardware store, so needs no concentration figures. BUT, my bottle does say 20 degree Baume (whatever that means) also says (31.45%)
I CAN attest that the 2 parts drugstore H2O2 to 1 part hardware store muriatic acid makes a fine pc board etchant - I used a fine brush to "agitate" the etching and it took around 5 minutes.
One beauty of this system is that the H2O2 is less than $1.00 and my muriatic acid label says $2.99 (1 quart) (bought within the last couple of years)
I would NOT guess that concrete cleaner would necessarily be the same stuff even though muriatic acid IS used for that purpose.
Evaporating to dryness is fine if you don't have much solution, and live in a low humidity place, and are patient, and have the spare space where it won't be disturbed by wives or animals (I have both - well, only one of each). At least it does not have acid fumes after neutralizing so the evaporation can be done inside.


"
Hi Al,
Might I suggest that you simply let the neutralized solution evaporate to leave just solid then dispose of all the solid together (possibly together with other metal that is to be recycled).

Regards
Sergio Masci
"
--
Looking forward,
Al Shinn

2012\01\06@024453 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 3, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Al Shinn wrote:

> I clearly stated "... drugstore hydrogen peroxide"

Muriatic acid is almost always full strength (about 32%), but hydrogen peroxide is available in several concentrations.  Normal medicinal H2O2 is 3% (which is what you want), but 6% is pretty common for hair bleaching, and you can get somewhat stronger than that if you have a well-equipped "drug store."

ObJoke:  Two chemists go into a bar.  The first says "I'll have an H2O."  The second says "I'll have an H2O too."  They get and consume their drinks, and the second chemist dies!

Note that the minimum price for a professionally manufactured PCB has gone down to about $20.  (That gets you 10, identical 50mm square boards from China (Seeed or iTead Studios), or 3 boards of about that size from DorkbotPBX or similar services in the US ($5/in^2)  That includes postage.  Gratification isn't so instant as etching your own, but ... at prices like that it's difficult to justify messing around at home.  And you get two sides, Plated-through holes, soldermask and silkscreen, and routed to shape.

For large, simple, PCBs, home etching may still make sense.  As board size goes up, your options dwindle, per-in^2 deals get expensive, and you don't get any cost savings for simplicity.

BillW

2012\01\06@032305 by KPL

picon face
I have never ever needed more than 2 or 3 of same boards yet. This is
not a business, but a hobby.
So producing a single pcb costs probably few $, and gets you further
in an hour, instead of waiting for weeks. Any reasonably priced
shipping takes usually about 3 weeks from china/hk to here.
So basically it depends on many factors.

>
> Note that the minimum price for a professionally manufactured PCB has gone down to about $20.  (That gets you 10, identical 50mm square boards from China (Seeed or iTead Studios), or 3 boards of about that size from DorkbotPBX or similar services in the US ($5/in^2)  That includes postage.  Gratification isn't so instant as etching your own, but ... at prices like that it's difficult to justify messing around at home.  And you get two sides, Plated-through holes, soldermask and silkscreen, and routed to shape.
>
> For large, simple, PCBs, home etching may still make sense.  As board size goes up, your options dwindle, per-in^2 deals get expensive, and you don't get any cost savings for simplicity.
>
> BillW


-- KPL

2012\01\06@035149 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 6, 2012, at 12:23 AM, KPL wrote:

> So producing a single pcb costs probably few $, and gets you further
> in an hour, instead of waiting for weeks.

Yes.  Except for the first board, which typically involves $20 in startup costs (etchant, or etchant chemicals, bare PCB material, laser printer :-), maybe special paper, Drillbits and maybe a drill, solvents and scrubbies, sharpies for touch-up, some sort of cutting tool, etc, etc.)

Most homebrew boards will take more than an hour, all things considered.
But less than a day.

DorkbotPBX isn't based in China, though you're probably still looking at three weeks turnaround once everything is considered.  My order there went in on the 12th and showed up on the 30th, IIRC.

BillW

2012\01\06@040648 by KPL

picon face
>> So producing a single pcb costs probably few $, and gets you further
>> in an hour, instead of waiting for weeks.
>
> Yes.  Except for the first board, which typically involves $20 in startup costs (etchant, or etchant chemicals, bare PCB material, laser printer :-), maybe special paper, Drillbits and maybe a drill, solvents and scrubbies, sharpies for touch-up, some sort of cutting tool, etc, etc.)
>

Yes, of course. But most home tinkerers have most of those tools anyway.
For those starting this hobby now, it's probably a different story.

> Most homebrew boards will take more than an hour, all things considered.
> But less than a day.

Quite probably design time is less, since you do not have to check if
holes are correctly defined, or other things that are crucial for
professionally made pcb's.
For homemade board it's probably 10 minutes before etching, about 20
minutes etching (I'm using FeCl), after that it's just cleaning and
drilling, which does not take a lot for my simple boards.
I'm currently using some cheap toner transfer paper from china,
ordered on ebay. Seems like just a paper with some kind of
polyethylene coating, it's working quite ok.
Tried similar paper from building stuff, but that coating has much
lower melting point.

> DorkbotPBX isn't based in China, though you're probably still looking at three weeks turnaround once everything is considered.  My order there went in on the 12th and showed up on the 30th, IIRC.
>
> BillW

I'm in eastern Europe, so everything outside EU is considered far away:)
Unfortunately, everything inside EU is considered expensive.

-- KPL

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