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PICList Thread
'Yeeeeehah! - 50MHz 16C5X clones !'
1997\08\12@051819 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Here's an update on the Scenix chip :

Fastest 8-bit Microcontroller in the World
50 MIPS Performance
 DC-50MHz operation
 1 instruction per clock (branches 3)
 20ns instruction cycle, 60ns interrupt response

EE Flash Technology
 In-system programming via OSC pins
 Internal access time of 12ns
 EE Flash rated for 10,000 cycles

Fast Interrupts
 Hardware context save/restore of PC, W, STATUS, and FSR
 Jitter-free 3-cycle interrupt response to RTCC rollover
 RB pins provide interrupt/wakeup-on-change

Flexible I/O
 All pins individually programmable as inputs or outputs
 Inputs are each TTL or CMOS level selectable
 All pins have selectable internal pull-ups (~20kW to VDD)
 RB and RC inputs each selectable as Schmitt Trigger
 All outputs capable of sinking/sourcing 30ma
 RA outputs have symmetrical drive (same Vdrop +/-)
 Analog comparator on RB (RBO out, RB1 in-, RB2 in+)

Component Reduction
 Internal oscillator (off, 4MHz^20-7+/-8%) lowers EMI
 Built-in brown-out detector (off, 1.5V, 2.5V, 4.0V)
 Power-on-reset, multi-input wakeup

Designed for PIC16C5x Compatibility
 Ten new instructions for improved code efficiency
 New high-speed interrupts that are easy to use
 Selectable 8-level hardware stack
 C flag fuse-selectable as input to add and subtract operations
 W mappable into RTCC space for increased accessibility
 Code memory is run-time readable (fast lookups &  98 UL compliance)
 EE Flash and RAM are fuse-reduceable to model  54 through  58
 Turbo fuse enables divide-by-one execution
 Order-of-magnitude performance increase @ fractional power per MIPS

General
 EE Flash code memory - 2048 x 12
 RAM registers - 136 bytes
 Operating voltage - 3.7V to 6.25V
 Only 12mA @ 50MHz, 5V
 DIP-18/28, SDIP-28, SOIC-18/28, SSOP-20, and SSOP-28 packages

Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
spam_OUTtjaartTakeThisOuTspamwasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
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|________________________________________________________|

1997\08\27@154047 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 11:17 AM 12-08-97 +0200, Tjaart van der Walt wrote:
>Here's an update on the Scenix chip :
>[... some interesting stuff]

could you please post some address info of the manufacturer (web site, email)?

Gerhard

1997\08\27@162621 by sdattalo

face
flavicon
face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>
> At 11:17 AM 12-08-97 +0200, Tjaart van der Walt wrote:
> >Here's an update on the Scenix chip :
> >[... some interesting stuff]
>
> could you please post some address info of the manufacturer (web site, email)?

http://www.scenix.com/

There's a description of the part, but no data sheet. This month's
issue of Electronic Design has a feature article on the part. The
theme of the article is that a super-duper fast microcontroller
doesn't need any silicon wasting peripherals because everything
can be simulated in software. So the marketing wizards coined the
term "virtual peripheral" to make up for the lack of hardware
features. But the part is like a supercharged C54. I can't wait
to see Microchip's response.

Scott
--
                                __o
 I buy pizza instead of gas.    \<
                             (*)/(*)

1997\08\28@011844 by tjaart

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face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>
> At 11:17 AM 12-08-97 +0200, Tjaart van der Walt wrote:
> >Here's an update on the Scenix chip :
> >[... some interesting stuff]
>
> could you please post some address info of the manufacturer (web site, email)?
>
> Gerhard

My (opinionated) opinion first....
I don't think Microchip 'unveiled' 20 'new' flash micro's (for full
production in the year 2050) in their press release for nothing. The
'future
products' pdf file on the Microchip site makes for real good reading, if
a
bit too humorous. They can't even fix up a buggy compiler in a year, so
how
would they be able to do a 16C877 (EE version of the '77) in good time?

Now the word-of-mouth stuff...
Pricing seems to be in the USD2 to USD3 range.

Now the verbatim stuff... (It is from the pdf file on the Scenix site)
Introducing the SX series of 8-bit CMOS microcontrollers
from Scenix Semiconductor. The SX incorporates a multitude of
advanced features - each implemented with a practical
understanding of microcontroller applications.
Let the blazing speed of the SX propel your next project
into the 21st century.
Fastest 8-bit Microcontroller in the World

50 MIPS Performance
 DC-50MHz operation
 1 instruction per clock (branches 3)
 20ns instruction cycle, 60ns interrupt response

E2 Flash Technology
 In-system programming via OSC pins
 Internal access time of 12ns
 E2 Flash rated for 10,000 cycles

Fast Interrupts
 Hardware context save/restore of PC, W, STATUS, and FSR
 Jitter-free 3-cycle interrupt response to RTCC rollover
 RB pins provide interrupt/wakeup-on-change

Flexible I/O
 All pins individually programmable as inputs or outputs
 Inputs are each TTL or CMOS level selectable
 All pins have selectable internal pull-ups (~20kW to VDD)
 RB and RC inputs each selectable as Schmitt Trigger
 All outputs capable of sinking/sourcing 30ma
 RA outputs have symmetrical drive (same Vdrop +/-)
 Analog comparator on RB (RBO out, RB1 in-, RB2 in+)

Component Reduction
 Internal oscillator (off, 4MHz-2^ 0-7 +/-8%) lowers EMI
 Built-in brown-out detector (off, 1.5V, 2.5V, 4.0V)
 Power-on-reset, multi-input wakeup

Designed for PIC16C5x Compatibility
 Ten new instructions for improved code efficiency
 New high-speed interrupts that are easy to use
 Selectable 8-level hardware stack
 C flag fuse-selectable as input to add and subtract operations
 W mappable into RTCC space for increased accessibility
 Code memory is run-time readable (fast lookups &  98 UL compliance)
 E2 Flash and RAM are fuse-reduceable to model  54 through  58
 Turbo fuse enables divide-by-one execution
 Order-of-magnitude performance increase @ fractional power per MIPS

General
 E2 Flash code memory - 2048 x 12
 RAM registers - 136 bytes
 Operating voltage - 3.7V to 6.25V
 Only 12mA @ 50MHz, 5V
 DIP-18/28, SDIP-28, SOIC-18/28, SSOP-20, and SSOP-28 packages
 Complete tools available free from Parallax, Inc c.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
.....tjaartKILLspamspam@spam@wasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\08\28@060249 by Dave Mullenix

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>> >Here's an update on the Scenix chip :

>> could you please post some address info of the manufacturer (web site,
email)?
>
>http://www.scenix.com/

Also try

http://www.parallaxinc.com/

They're making a programmer and other support hardware for the chip.

Dave, N9LTD

1997\08\28@092914 by Andy Kunz

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face
Tjaart wrote:

>My (opinionated) opinion first....
>I don't think Microchip 'unveiled' 20 'new' flash micro's (for full
>production in the year 2050) in their press release for nothing. The
>'future
>products' pdf file on the Microchip site makes for real good reading, if
>a
>bit too humorous. They can't even fix up a buggy compiler in a year, so
>how
>would they be able to do a 16C877 (EE version of the '77) in good time?

The Scenix and AVR chips have made MCHP much more interested in listening
to engineers.  We had two MCHP employees here yesterday for two hours.  One
guy from Chandler (about 5 hours of flying), another from Long Island (a
two-hour drive), and a sales rep from south Jersey (two hours).

We were talking about half a million parts a year between two of our
customers (almost done projects).  My guess is we're going to get the chip
we want (same chip both projects) and YOU will benefit, and it's going to
happen SOON because it's half a million chips a year and we need them for
production by about January.  It isn't on the Future Products list because
we just spelled it out to them yesterday.

I suggest you stop complaining about how they aren't giving you what you
want (C compiler, chip features, etc).  Get them an order that will mean
real volume, and you'll get exactly what you want.

They're just like every other decent company - driven by customer demand.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\08\28@111216 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 07:08 AM 28-08-97 +0200, Tjaart van der Walt wrote:
>My (opinionated) opinion first....
>I don't think Microchip 'unveiled' 20 'new' flash micro's (for full
>production in the year 2050) in their press release for nothing.

I wasn't aware of this 'unveiling' document... anyway, calling something
'planned for full production in the year 2050' seems more marketing than
planning :-)

>The 'future products' pdf file on the Microchip site makes for real good
>reading, if a bit too humorous. They can't even fix up a buggy compiler
>in a year, so how would they be able to do a 16C877 (EE version of the
>'77) in good time?

There's one interesting thing: usually, once some manufacturer starts
running behind and trying to catch up with the development (more reacting
to others than acting and putting real new things out by themselves
*before* any competitor even thinks about something similar), they're in
serious trouble, meaning having lost the 'edge'. It's only the 'tip of the
iceberg' that becomes visible then, and the trouble usually sits deeper and
takes some time to resolve.

>Fastest 8-bit Microcontroller in the World
>[... some more interesting stuff, but not necessarily *so* interesting
>as to having a need to read it again :-)]

Ge

1997\08\28@112626 by tjaart

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face
Andy Kunz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I'm sure your grandmother is proud...
(I hope your spelling was better than some of the gems we find on this
list :))

>
> I suggest you stop complaining about how they aren't giving you what you
> want (C compiler, chip features, etc).  Get them an order that will mean
> real volume, and you'll get exactly what you want.

Mchip can't even supply us with the '74s we want, so how the hell can we
build up a 'decent' volume?? A nice catch-22 if you ask me.. Why don't
they
make their C compiler work so people can get more working products out
there?

>
> They're just like every other decent company - driven by customer demand.

Do you imply by this that there is no demand for flash chips ? (I mean
*real* chips, not the '84) The demand for flash has been there for a
long
time.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
tjaartspamKILLspamwasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\08\28@125958 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
At 05:08 PM 8/28/97 +0200, Tjaart wrote:
>Mchip can't even supply us with the '74s we want, so how the hell can we
>build up a 'decent' volume?? A nice catch-22 if you ask me.. Why don't
>they
>make their C compiler work so people can get more working products out
>there?

I don't have a problem getting them.  Maybe you're on the wrong side of the
Atlantic <G> - they provide fine in the Pacific Rim countries, too.

Real Embedded Programmers Use Assembly.  (I use both, so I still qualify as
"real" <G>).  Seriously, though, the '7x is about the smallest chip that is
practical for a C compiler, although I do use it in smaller chips (like an
'84-based project I'm working on).

Like my old high school math teacher always said, "If ya wanna do da job
right, ya gotta have da right tools."  He used that to belittle the less
gifted students (and we all hated him for it), but the principle is correct.

>> They're just like every other decent company - driven by customer demand.
>
>Do you imply by this that there is no demand for flash chips ? (I mean
>*real* chips, not the '84) The demand for flash has been there for a
>long
>time.

I'm just pointing out that, now that there's some competition (which there
wasn't before), they have become very much more interested in listening to
engineers.  Now that there's competition and somebody might cut into their
profits (uh-oh, here I go mixing off-topic threads), they have a reason to
listen and BY GOLLY THEY'RE LISTENING!

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\08\28@144516 by Walter Banks

picon face
About 90% of embedded applicatuions could be made
to run on some member of the top 10 embedded processor
vendors.

Look at the comments on this and several other threads and
there are common requirements to sell silicon. To be successful
a vendor has to address the following issues.

1) There are engineers that have a development project with
   a specific deadline usually measured in weeks or a few months
   at most.,

2) They need to know about what is curently available.

3) They need good solid technical information from the WEB,
   local seminars, application engineers or factory personel
   about specific parts. Local representative rapore counts
   for a lot in this business.

4) Silicon vendors get selected  on the basis of  past
   experience with the supplier and current product not
   on future products or ideas.

It is interesting that technology is only a small part of the
equation and information and availability is quite a large part.

Walter Banks

1997\08\28@161122 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 02:43 PM 28-08-97 -0400, Walter Banks wrote:
>It is interesting that technology is only a small part of the
>equation and information and availability is quite a large part.

That's really obvious -- if still somebody doesn't take into account that
in order to consider buying something somebody first has to know that he
will be able to buy it when he needs it (availability), and that in order
to be able to include anything in a design one has to have decent
information on it: I don't know why they would be in business anyway. (If
so, probably because of government deals: they have no urgent needs, and
don't need to know exactly how the thing works :-)

These two are nothing more than an obvious prerequisite (? language), in
order to be able to consider their technology gems.

ge

1997\08\28@161434 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:43:49 -0400 Walter Banks <.....walterKILLspamspam.....BYTECRAFT.COM>
writes:

>It is interesting that technology is only a small part of the
>equation and information and availability is quite a large part.

This is true, once the technology is adequate for the job at hand then
additional technology is usually of little use.  This is especially true
for something like a toaster; the quality of toast produced depends not
at all on the MIPS rating of the processor.  But the usual sales approach
is to get in early, wow 'em with technology (before the project has
developed enough to know what technology is actually needed), and get 'em
hooked on your chip.  The salesforce seems to believe (maybe correctly)
that only a few, if any, designers will strongly consider small
increments of price and the availability / nonavailability in the early
stages.  And they are probably right, since the designer is just trying
to get something, anything, to work.  Throwing as much technology as
possible at it seems to make the job easier as well as providing lots of
up-to-date jargon to use at meetings.  A superior may ask "Does this
design use 'FLASH'?" and it seems a lot better to be able to answer "yes,
of course it does, what am I, a stick in the mud?" rather than try and
explain why not.

In my opinion, in-circuit reprogrammable means in-circuit deprogrammable,
so if it is a relatively simple product that you want to send out the
door and never see again, OTP is good.  Besides lower cost (and OTP will
always cost less than flash since it is the same thing with several
wiring paths removed and a less critical tolerance on the oxide
thickness), it likely takes a much higher surge of voltage applied to the
chip to accidentally tear up the program in it.

The ability to use EEPROM or Flash parts for early development is a
fairly strong point, however a major customer will likely use an ICE
since the cost is only $1-5K and its usefullness is much higher than
Flash parts, on-chip debugging, and other glitzy technology.

1997\08\28@170134 by Andy Kunz

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face
>The ability to use EEPROM or Flash parts for early development is a
>fairly strong point, however a major customer will likely use an ICE
>since the cost is only $1-5K and its usefullness is much higher than
>Flash parts, on-chip debugging, and other glitzy technology.

Sometimes (as in RF-related work) ICE's are not usable, and the only way to
verify it in circuit is to have an adequate test plan in place ahead of time.

I sense another thread starting....

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\08\28@175715 by Walter Banks

picon face
>
> At 02:43 PM 28-08-97 -0400, Walter Banks wrote:
> >It is interesting that technology is only a small part of the
> >equation and information and availability is quite a large part.
>
> These two are nothing more than an obvious prerequisite (? language), in
> order to be able to consider their technology gems.


Adding to two comments that have been posted on my note.
It is an obvious prerequiste and there are still many potential
suppliers that do not understand the issue.  As consumers
companies that are not paying sufficient attention to the
detail of making sales also often fail in other detail related
issues  After this baseline then ease of emulators and
technical; features become important. Sales are won
through a combination of many things.

Walter Banks

1997\08\28@192147 by John Payson

picon face
> >The ability to use EEPROM or Flash parts for early development is a
> >fairly strong point, however a major customer will likely use an ICE
> >since the cost is only $1-5K and its usefullness is much higher than
> >Flash parts, on-chip debugging, and other glitzy technology.
>
> Sometimes (as in RF-related work) ICE's are not usable, and the only way to
> verify it in circuit is to have an adequate test plan in place ahead of time.
>
> I sense another thread starting....

Agreed wholeheartedly.  While ICE's can be nice at times, they are often
clunky and bothersome.  Even though my company has an emulator for some
of the CPU's we use, it seems I very rarely take it off the shelf: unless
I'm having a particularly vexing problem in my code, it's usually adequate
to simply use a normal CPU and reprogram as needed.  If I can ISP the
device, so much the better.

One thing I have sometimes thought would be nice would be a 24-pin PIC in
a skinnydip package with 18 of the pins in an ordinary DIP18-PIC configura-
tion.  This would allow use of a larger CPU during development/debug and a
smaller CPU drop-in once development was complete.  Unfortunately, I suspect
silicon probably wouldn't work out well for that and the idea would thus not
be practical, but it would be nice if it could work.

1997\08\28@201540 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>
> At 02:43 PM 28-08-97 -0400, Walter Banks wrote:
> >It is interesting that technology is only a small part of the
> >equation and information and availability is quite a large part.
>
> That's really obvious -- if still somebody doesn't take into account that
> in order to consider buying something somebody first has to know that he
> will be able to buy it when he needs it (availability), and that in order
> to be able to include anything in a design one has to have decent
> information on it: I don't know why they would be in business anyway. (If
> so, probably because of government deals: they have no urgent needs, and
> don't need to know exactly how the thing works :-)

In the 'old' days of electronics design, an engineer didn't even
consider using a part if it was single-sourced.  This was when the rule
of thumb was "if it takes more than 20 ICs, use a micro."  At least then
you could buy 4000 and 54/74 parts from at least half a dozen reliable
manufacturers.  Now I find myself skating the issue when my boss says
"If Microchip goes out of business, so do we, huh?".  The connotation of
availability appears to have changed over the years.  I'll be happy when
there's a higher availability of PIC-compatible manufacturers - not just
reliable availability from a single supplier.
-- Matt

1997\08\29@214308 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
On Sat, Aug 30, 1997 at 02:20:35AM +0100, Marc 'Nepomuk' Heuler wrote:
> Now that I've read a lot rumors about that SX chip, I have two questions:
>
> What's the minimum powerup delay @5V (all possibly existing fuses

The datasheet is not yet available, so neither is that information. It may
well be that Scenix don't have a good answer yet.

> Where can I buy the damn thing (30-50 pieces for a starter, SOIC or SSOP

You can't. I have been told, from the horse's mouth, that the first
silicon is being tested now, production is scheduled for January. Of
course there's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip. I understand
another sample wafer run is scheduled between now and January, so meeting
that schedule will depend on the next samples being near-perfect. Apparently
production capacity has been allocated by the fab.

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs               |            HI-TECH Software
Email: EraseMEclydespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuThtsoft.com          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
PGP:   finger clydespamspam_OUThtsoft.com   | AUS: +61 7 3354 2411 +61 7 3354 2422
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSI C for the PIC! Now shipping! See http://www.htsoft.com for more info.

1997\08\31@025403 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
Of course, parallax's involvement makes one immediately aware of how nice
something like a basic-stamp 2 would be with a 50MIPs core instead of the
current PIC...  Has there been discussion on the stamp list?

As processors get faster in general, applications DON'T get faster, they
just get more complex.  The number of cycles wasted doing GUI interfaces is
simply astounding, and a 4MHz Z80 with memory mapped text display and
WordStar is hard to match, speedwise, with a modern wysiwyg multifont
multwindow bitmapped display...

BillW

1997\08\31@054045 by mike

flavicon
picon face
In message  <@spam@616355217A07D011828D00805FCCB1C0A46218KILLspamspamtorino.corp.es.com>> KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU writes:
> I just met with an FAE from microchip, who said this was basically a
> masked FPGA.....
>

Which I guess means that:

 - the die size will be bigger (?)
 - Scenix will be fab-less (?)

Both of which lead to higher production costs - right?
Are there any other issues, good or bad with it being a masked FPGA?


Incidently, I have mentioned it before, but I know someone who uses
a 16C57 (IIRC) with an external oscillator at 50 MHz in production. He
was happy to select on test each PIC, but has found that every PIC he
has bought has worked. He doesn't cover the full temp range though
which might make a difference, but I suspect that most projects don't
need to cover the range anyway.

Regards,

Mike Watson

1997\08\31@064747 by mikesmith_oz

flavicon
face
On 31 Aug 97 at 9:05, Mayes uk wrote:

>
> Incidently, I have mentioned it before, but I know someone who uses
> a 16C57 (IIRC) with an external oscillator at 50 MHz in production.
> He was happy to select on test each PIC, but has found that every
> PIC he has bought has worked. He doesn't cover the full temp range
> though which might make a difference, but I suspect that most
> projects don't need to cover the range anyway.
>

That's overclocking with a vengeance!
How does it go across the other PIC family members 7x for example.
According to the specs, a 50M clock in a PIC still would only be 1/4
as fast as the Scenix at 50MHz
MikeS
<RemoveMEmikesmith_ozTakeThisOuTspamrelaymail.net>

1997\08\31@104400 by Antti Lukats

flavicon
face
At 11:54 PM 30/8/97 PDT, you wrote:
>Of course, parallax's involvement makes one immediately aware of how nice
>something like a basic-stamp 2 would be with a 50MIPs core instead of the
>current PIC...  Has there been discussion on the stamp list?

You said it :)
yes, Scenix (or AVR) + FRAM Serial memory make "dream stamps" possible.

>As processors get faster in general, applications DON'T get faster, they

YES and NO.

YES for sure if Billy is involved - see the Windows threads.
   software must get more complex to require new hardware
   to give more profit to the desktop computer industry :(

NO  in some other cases.

From what is available today on low cost processors ( <= 3USD) AT90S1200
AVR Risc is fastest - too fast as many people might think. Where could
I use 16MIPS? they do ask. And really this is something that is hard
to understand right away. But after working some time with AVR I have
found that the speed increase from PIC to AVR is just enough to make the
difference. It really makes the difference. The only AVR chip available
in production qty AT90S1200 is so tiny and has almost no spoecial I/O that
it might seem to be almost unusable. That is is not so.
with 16MIPS it possible as example to have timer ints at let say 4 microsecs,
or better at baudrate/16 making possible things like

* 19200 full-duplex software UART   http://avrbasic.com/appnotes
* 250KBAud background UART (half-duplex)

all those things run in the background and can be considered as virtual
hardware a concept we feel Parallax and Scenix are targetting too.

When already 16 MIPS made a difference then you can imagine how useable
the virtual hardware will become 50MIPS.
I guess 57.6 KBaud software UART might be duable (as background task)
and other funny things.

>just get more complex.  The number of cycles wasted doing GUI interfaces is
>simply astounding, and a 4MHz Z80 with memory mapped text display and
>WordStar is hard to match, speedwise, with a modern wysiwyg multifont
>multwindow bitmapped display...

In old days - my best DIY computer ever:
Z80 + 64dRAM + 1KB Boot ROM + 5.25 Inch Floppy + ASCII Terminal and CP/M
works like magic. Cold boot in 4 seconds maximum. Runs Turbo Pascal
and is enough for any kind of assemblers and compilers.
Havent seen a Pentium that would boot as fast.

antti






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1997\08\31@122416 by Andy Kunz

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>In old days - my best DIY computer ever:
>Z80 + 64dRAM + 1KB Boot ROM + 5.25 Inch Floppy + ASCII Terminal and CP/M
>works like magic. Cold boot in 4 seconds maximum. Runs Turbo Pascal
>and is enough for any kind of assemblers and compilers.
>Havent seen a Pentium that would boot as fast.

So how come you aren't complaining like the other whiners about Parallax
not supporting the Scenix under DOS?

<VBG>

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\08\31@131745 by Antti Lukats

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At 12:22 PM 31/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>In old days - my best DIY computer ever:
>>Z80 + 64dRAM + 1KB Boot ROM + 5.25 Inch Floppy + ASCII Terminal and CP/M
>>works like magic. Cold boot in 4 seconds maximum. Runs Turbo Pascal
>>and is enough for any kind of assemblers and compilers.
>>Havent seen a Pentium that would boot as fast.
>
>So how come you aren't complaining like the other whiners about Parallax
>not supporting the Scenix under DOS?
>
><VBG>

you mean scenix SX-50 to support DOS? <VVVVVBG>

I am not complaining. I am not whining. [I never do]
And I dont even have a Pentium.

and we still support x86 DOS for our software.
(to be able to use them under Mac/Linux DOS EMU's)

antti

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'Yeeeeehah! - 50MHz 16C5X clones !'
1997\09\01@003226 by tjaart
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Clyde Smith-Stubbs wrote:

> > Where can I buy the damn thing (30-50 pieces for a starter, SOIC or SSOP
>
> You can't. I have been told, from the horse's mouth, that the first
> silicon is being tested now, production is scheduled for January. Of
> course there's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip. I understand
> another sample wafer run is scheduled between now and January, so meeting
> that schedule will depend on the next samples being near-perfect. Apparently
> production capacity has been allocated by the fab.

I was told that engineering samples should be available through Parallax
in September.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
spamBeGonetjaartspamBeGonespamwasp.co.za
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1997\09\01@124141 by Marc 'Nepomuk' Heuler

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Hi Antti (Antti Lukats), in <TakeThisOuT199708310905.MAA17686EraseMEspamspam_OUTpeak.edu.ee> on Aug 30 you wrote:

> with 16MIPS it possible as example to have timer ints at let say 4 microsecs,
> or better at baudrate/16 making possible things like
>
> * 19200 full-duplex software UART   http://avrbasic.com/appnotes
> * 250KBAud background UART (half-duplex)

I don't think so.  The AT90S1200 has only 512 code words.  I have bought
several of them but until today I am not that satisfied with it.  I once
tried to interlock two lengthy but not too complex simultanous io
operations into a 12C508 and found that 512 code words are not enough.  It
actually was possible on 12C509 (1024 words).

Assuming an AT90S1200 has only 512 words, most apps I can imagine that can
benefit from its speed, don't fit into the part - even more so when a
third/half of that space is used for virtual hardware like UART.

It's nice to have the option, of course.  But for my project I have to wait
for the AT90S2313 (1024 code words + UART + 20 MIPS).

1997\09\01@133558 by Antti Lukats

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At 11:18 AM 1/9/97 CET, you wrote:
>Hi Antti (Antti Lukats), in <RemoveME199708310905.MAA17686spamTakeThisOuTpeak.edu.ee> on Aug 30
you wrote:
>
>> with 16MIPS it possible as example to have timer ints at let say 4 microsecs,
>> or better at baudrate/16 making possible things like
>>
>> * 19200 full-duplex software UART   http://avrbasic.com/appnotes
>> * 250KBAud background UART (half-duplex)
>
>I don't think so.  The AT90S1200 has only 512 code words.  I have bought
>several of them but until today I am not that satisfied with it.  I once
>tried to interlock two lengthy but not too complex simultanous io
>operations into a 12C508 and found that 512 code words are not enough.  It
>actually was possible on 12C509 (1024 words).
>
>Assuming an AT90S1200 has only 512 words, most apps I can imagine that can
>benefit from its speed, don't fit into the part - even more so when a
>third/half of that space is used for virtual hardware like UART.

You have looked at our application Notes? have you??

Complete mini application using full-duplex background software UART at
9600/19200 Baud occupies 69 Words.

The amount of Virtual UART code is ~ 60 words. As some of the code is
co-shared (ie initialization that would have been used anyway) then the
actual code amount of the virtual full duplex UART is ~58 Words, still
a bit more than 1/10th, but but not 1/3 rd.
and there is still plenty of time in ISR to add more virtual hardware:

First 8 bit PWM channel: 6 Words additional
next PWM channel         4 Words additional code.

>It's nice to have the option, of course.  But for my project I have to wait
>for the AT90S2313 (1024 code words + UART + 20 MIPS).

Oh, yes we all are waiting for it.

Still at 1.80USD price I think AT90S1200 is pretty much OK with the
price/performance ratio. And there are lotsa applications possible.

antti




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1997\09\02@102112 by Harrison Cooper

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yea....we use Verilog to design our custom chips.  And...so yes....it
can be said the same of any chip.  sorry about this post....sometimes I
just feel its better to not comment.  Like the CAD software thing...kept
my mouth shut on it.  Guess I will for now on as well unless its in
private email.

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