Post by thread:Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)

(I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!) I have heard the following reasons from Microchip reps: 1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading off for EEPROM. 2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part of their policy. 3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM. Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented on this.) 4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not _program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists (i.e. not much of a business). I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here. Martin Nilsson Swedish Institute of Computer Science E-mail: spam_OUTmnTakeThisOuTsics.se Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista Fax: +46-8-751-7230 Sweden Tel: +46-8-752-1574 {Quote hidden}> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 17:50:09 -0500 > From: Chris Smolinski <.....cpsKILLspam@spam@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET> > Subject: Re: Bulk Buy of 16C84? > > > Is there interest in doing a bulk buy of PIC 16C84's, or perhaps > >another PIC? I know this one is very popular due to eeprom, and I need > >several for upcoming projects. I thought if there is interest, I would > >try to put together a bulk purchase and save everyone some money. > > I was thinking of the of the 10 Mhz, 18 pin Dip package. By > >getting the faster speed everyone will be satisfied, even though it cost > >a little more. If there is interest in 25 units, we can get a > >decent discount over the 1 piece price. If there is interest in > >100 or 1000 it is much cheaper, I like to be optimistic. > > If your interested, email me directly with aproximate of how many > >you might be interested in. I will put everyone who is intersted on a > >email macro to keep you up to date. I wished I could publish prices, but > >I want to see what kind of price break we can get first based on > >the interest poll. (It should definately be <$10) > > > > I'm planning on using the PIC16C84 in a project at work, and checked > pricing. I need about 500 of 'em (two build two systems, each has 256 PICs, > each PIC monitors a photodiode to check for a pulse of light at a certain > time, and then processes the information and presents it on a common bus to > be read by a 486. I wonder if this would be a record for the most PICs in a > single product???) > > Anyway, I was quoted around $5 or so each. I'll have to check the pricing > info at work tomorrow to make sure. If you can get the volume up, you > certainly should get the price break. > > Any idea why Microchip doesn't make any other PICs with EE program memory? > I need the ability to re-program the PICs in-circuit, so that left the > 16C84 as the only possibility.

Of course Microchip listens... However, we are still a relatively small company and out of the 1,000,000 things we have to do, program memory EEPROM PIC's are about number 736,492. Also, when we ask our larger customers (who don't need to get together to make bulk buys) what they will pay for a reprogrammable 16C73 as opposed to a EPROM 16C73, the answer just isn't the one we want to hear. Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less. The real world can be a scary place! Rgds, Brian. bbolesKILLspammicrochip.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84) Author: Martin Nilsson <.....mnKILLspam.....SICS.SE> at Internet_Exchange Date: 11/1/95 2:13 PM (I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!) I have heard the following reasons from Microchip reps: 1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading off for EEPROM. 2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part of their policy. 3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM. Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented on this.) 4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not _program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists (i.e. not much of a business). I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here. Martin Nilsson Swedish Institute of Computer Science E-mail: EraseMEmnspam_OUTTakeThisOuTsics.se Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista Fax: +46-8-751-7230 Sweden Tel: +46-8-752-1574 {Quote hidden}> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 17:50:09 -0500 > From: Chris Smolinski <cpsspam_OUTACCESS.DIGEX.NET> > Subject: Re: Bulk Buy of 16C84? > > > Is there interest in doing a bulk buy of PIC 16C84's, or perhaps > >another PIC? I know this one is very popular due to eeprom, and I need > >several for upcoming projects. I thought if there is interest, I would > >try to put together a bulk purchase and save everyone some money. > > I was thinking of the of the 10 Mhz, 18 pin Dip package. By > >getting the faster speed everyone will be satisfied, even though it cost > >a little more. If there is interest in 25 units, we can get a > >decent discount over the 1 piece price. If there is interest in > >100 or 1000 it is much cheaper, I like to be optimistic. > > If your interested, email me directly with aproximate of how many > >you might be interested in. I will put everyone who is intersted on a > >email macro to keep you up to date. I wished I could publish prices, but > >I want to see what kind of price break we can get first based on > >the interest poll. (It should definately be <$10) > > > > I'm planning on using the PIC16C84 in a project at work, and checked > pricing. I need about 500 of 'em (two build two systems, each has 256 PICs, > each PIC monitors a photodiode to check for a pulse of light at a certain > time, and then processes the information and presents it on a common bus to > be read by a 486. I wonder if this would be a record for the most PICs in a > single product???) > > Anyway, I was quoted around $5 or so each. I'll have to check the pricing > info at work tomorrow to make sure. If you can get the volume up, you > certainly should get the price break. > > Any idea why Microchip doesn't make any other PICs with EE program memory? > I need the ability to re-program the PICs in-circuit, so that left the > 16C84 as the only possibility.

Of course Microchip listens... However, we are still a relatively small company and out of the 1,000,000 things we have to do, program memory EEPROM PIC's are about number 736,492. Also, when we ask our larger customers (who don't need to get together to make bulk buys) what they will pay for a reprogrammable 16C73 as opposed to a EPROM 16C73, the answer just isn't the one we want to hear. Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less. The real world can be a scary place! Rgds, Brian. @spam@bbolesKILLspammicrochip.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84) Author: Martin Nilsson <KILLspammnKILLspamSICS.SE> at Internet_Exchange Date: 11/1/95 2:13 PM (I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!) I have heard the following reasons from Microchip reps: 1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading off for EEPROM. 2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part of their policy. 3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM. Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented on this.) 4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not _program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists (i.e. not much of a business). I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here. Martin Nilsson Swedish Institute of Computer Science E-mail: RemoveMEmnTakeThisOuTsics.se Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista Fax: +46-8-751-7230 Sweden Tel: +46-8-752-1574 {Quote hidden}> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 17:50:09 -0500 > From: Chris Smolinski <spamBeGonecpsspamBeGoneACCESS.DIGEX.NET> > Subject: Re: Bulk Buy of 16C84? > > > Is there interest in doing a bulk buy of PIC 16C84's, or perhaps > >another PIC? I know this one is very popular due to eeprom, and I need > >several for upcoming projects. I thought if there is interest, I would > >try to put together a bulk purchase and save everyone some money. > > I was thinking of the of the 10 Mhz, 18 pin Dip package. By > >getting the faster speed everyone will be satisfied, even though it cost > >a little more. If there is interest in 25 units, we can get a > >decent discount over the 1 piece price. If there is interest in > >100 or 1000 it is much cheaper, I like to be optimistic. > > If your interested, email me directly with aproximate of how many > >you might be interested in. I will put everyone who is intersted on a > >email macro to keep you up to date. I wished I could publish prices, but > >I want to see what kind of price break we can get first based on > >the interest poll. (It should definately be <$10) > > > > I'm planning on using the PIC16C84 in a project at work, and checked > pricing. I need about 500 of 'em (two build two systems, each has 256 PICs, > each PIC monitors a photodiode to check for a pulse of light at a certain > time, and then processes the information and presents it on a common bus to > be read by a 486. I wonder if this would be a record for the most PICs in a > single product???) > > Anyway, I was quoted around $5 or so each. I'll have to check the pricing > info at work tomorrow to make sure. If you can get the volume up, you > certainly should get the price break. > > Any idea why Microchip doesn't make any other PICs with EE program memory? > I need the ability to re-program the PICs in-circuit, so that left the > 16C84 as the only possibility.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84) Author: Martin Nilsson <TakeThisOuTmnEraseMEspam_OUTSICS.SE> at Internet_Exchange Date: 11/1/95 2:13 PM (I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!) I have heard the following reasons from Microchip reps: 1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading off for EEPROM. 2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part of their policy. 3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM. Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented on this.) 4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not _program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists (i.e. not much of a business). I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here. Martin Nilsson Swedish Institute of Computer Science E-mail: RemoveMEmnTakeThisOuTsics.se Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista Fax: +46-8-751-7230 Sweden Tel: +46-8-752-1574 {Quote hidden}> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 17:50:09 -0500 > From: Chris Smolinski <cpsEraseME.....ACCESS.DIGEX.NET> > Subject: Re: Bulk Buy of 16C84? > > > Is there interest in doing a bulk buy of PIC 16C84's, or perhaps > >another PIC? I know this one is very popular due to eeprom, and I need > >several for upcoming projects. I thought if there is interest, I would > >try to put together a bulk purchase and save everyone some money. > > I was thinking of the of the 10 Mhz, 18 pin Dip package. By > >getting the faster speed everyone will be satisfied, even though it cost > >a little more. If there is interest in 25 units, we can get a > >decent discount over the 1 piece price. If there is interest in > >100 or 1000 it is much cheaper, I like to be optimistic. > > If your interested, email me directly with aproximate of how many > >you might be interested in. I will put everyone who is intersted on a > >email macro to keep you up to date. I wished I could publish prices, but > >I want to see what kind of price break we can get first based on > >the interest poll. (It should definately be <$10) > > > > I'm planning on using the PIC16C84 in a project at work, and checked > pricing. I need about 500 of 'em (two build two systems, each has 256 PICs, > each PIC monitors a photodiode to check for a pulse of light at a certain > time, and then processes the information and presents it on a common bus to > be read by a 486. I wonder if this would be a record for the most PICs in a > single product???) > > Anyway, I was quoted around $5 or so each. I'll have to check the pricing > info at work tomorrow to make sure. If you can get the volume up, you > certainly should get the price break. > > Any idea why Microchip doesn't make any other PICs with EE program memory? > I need the ability to re-program the PICs in-circuit, so that left the > 16C84 as the only possibility.

> > Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will > > give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less. > > The real world can be a scary place! > > What is the E-mail address of this guy in Taiwan, I can't get constant > prices or supplies in Australia, and MicroChip offer no alternatives for > me. I'm not trying to single out anyone in particular but I'm curious to know whether the people who complain so much about price, etc. sell their own products, services, labor at bargain basement prices just because the people who buy from them don't want to pay very much? When you see low prices like Mot 6805J1A's for <$2 you have to remember that they're on allocation half the time, they're more difficult to buy in one's and tens, etc. Considering the overhead involved I doubt if any manufacturer of mcu's would be in business on the money they make (lose?) selling one or two pieces to an individual. I'm not affiliated with Microchip. They're just one of the many suppliers I deal with in an effort to earn a living for my family. Tim McDonough

>> > Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will >> > give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less. >> > The real world can be a scary place! >> >> What is the E-mail address of this guy in Taiwan, I can't get constant >> prices or supplies in Australia, and MicroChip offer no alternatives for >> me. > >I'm not trying to single out anyone in particular but I'm curious to know >whether the people who complain so much about price, etc. sell their own >products, services, labor at bargain basement prices just because the >people who buy from them don't want to pay very much? > I worked for a company that made garage door openers radios, about 1.2 million units a year. We would let a 40k/year engineer work for three weeks to eliminate one jumper on a single sided board. At .3 cents each it cost many thousands of dollars to use that part. In addition we would let work an extra two or three weeks on a layout just to get the parts lined up so the head on the automatic insertion machine did not have to turn. That turn takes about half a second but it works out to several man-weeks per year of machine time in the quantities we were doing. I felt sorry, well sometimes, for the parts manufacturers. We used to beat them mercilessly. I remember meeting 3 different EEPROM makers on the same day to try to save a penny a part. Again, a penny is not much, but 1.2 million of them is something to write home about. And in this case we saved 7 of those shiny pennys on each EEPROM. Our market was extreamly competitive. Eventually, someone was importing a finished product for less than we could buy the parts for. Now I am back in my own company doing custom stuff. Usually, it just doesn't matter how much something costs. Nothing is more important than time. I have used a MC68HC811E2 at $18.00 each to do a 485 bus keyswitch box that interfaced a switch and two leds. It was cheaper, on 50 pcs, to use the $900 worth of parts than it would have been to spend a week re-writing the serial protocol for a 6805 or PIC. And as far as allocation, it's part of life in the mass production game. Saving some cost later is better than never saving it at all. Also, you schedule say 50,000 pcs a month of something to keep the pipeline moving and then take bigger sums when they are available. John Bean Advanced Telemetry Systems RemoveMEjrbspam_OUTKILLspamgate.net