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PICList Thread
'Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)'
1995\11\02@111754 by Martin Nilsson

picon face
(I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!)  I have
heard the following reasons from Microchip reps:

1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology
requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading
off for EEPROM.

2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip
would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part
of their policy.

3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM.
Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For
development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram
in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC
seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful
to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in
circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented
on this.)

4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but
Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not
_program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists
(i.e. not much of a business).

I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding
EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close
to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for
instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here.

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: spam_OUTmnTakeThisOuTspamsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

{Quote hidden}

1995\11\02@221751 by BBoles

flavicon
face
    Of course Microchip listens...

    However, we are still a relatively small company and out of the
    1,000,000 things we have to do, program memory EEPROM PIC's are about
    number 736,492.

    Also, when we ask our larger customers (who don't need to get together
    to make bulk buys) what they will pay for a reprogrammable 16C73 as
    opposed to a EPROM 16C73, the answer just isn't the one we want to
    hear.

    Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
    give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
    The real world can be a scary place!

    Rgds, Brian.                             bbolesspamKILLspammicrochip.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)
Author:  Martin Nilsson <.....mnKILLspamspam.....SICS.SE> at Internet_Exchange
Date:    11/1/95 2:13 PM


(I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!)  I have
heard the following reasons from Microchip reps:

1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology
requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading
off for EEPROM.

2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip
would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part
of their policy.

3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM.
Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For
development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram
in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC
seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful
to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in
circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented
on this.)

4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but
Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not
_program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists
(i.e. not much of a business).

I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding
EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close
to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for
instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here.

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: EraseMEmnspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

{Quote hidden}

1995\11\03@020106 by BBoles

flavicon
face
    Of course Microchip listens...

    However, we are still a relatively small company and out of the
    1,000,000 things we have to do, program memory EEPROM PIC's are about
    number 736,492.

    Also, when we ask our larger customers (who don't need to get together
    to make bulk buys) what they will pay for a reprogrammable 16C73 as
    opposed to a EPROM 16C73, the answer just isn't the one we want to
    hear.

    Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
    give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
    The real world can be a scary place!

    Rgds, Brian.                             @spam@bbolesKILLspamspammicrochip.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)
Author:  Martin Nilsson <KILLspammnKILLspamspamSICS.SE> at Internet_Exchange
Date:    11/1/95 2:13 PM


(I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!)  I have
heard the following reasons from Microchip reps:

1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology
requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading
off for EEPROM.

2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip
would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part
of their policy.

3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM.
Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For
development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram
in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC
seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful
to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in
circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented
on this.)

4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but
Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not
_program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists
(i.e. not much of a business).

I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding
EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close
to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for
instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here.

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: RemoveMEmnTakeThisOuTspamsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

{Quote hidden}

1995\11\03@021334 by BBoles

flavicon
face
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)
Author:  Martin Nilsson <TakeThisOuTmnEraseMEspamspam_OUTSICS.SE> at Internet_Exchange
Date:    11/1/95 2:13 PM


(I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!)  I have
heard the following reasons from Microchip reps:

1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology
requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading
off for EEPROM.

2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip
would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part
of their policy.

3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM.
Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For
development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram
in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC
seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful
to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in
circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented
on this.)

4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but
Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not
_program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists
(i.e. not much of a business).

I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding
EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close
to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for
instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here.

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: RemoveMEmnspamTakeThisOuTsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

{Quote hidden}

1995\11\03@072701 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
>      Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
>      give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
>      The real world can be a scary place!

What is the E-mail address of this guy in Taiwan, I can't get constant
prices or supplies in Australia, and MicroChip offer no alternatives for
me.

I look like chucking in with Ben and friends at this stage.

I could say more but will bite my lower lip for now!!!!!

Don...

 Low Cost DIY PCB's for PICs & COM1/LPT1 PC I/O Interface Kits    ;!
 Don McKenzie. 29 Ellesmere Cres., Tullamarine. 3043 Australia    ;@
 Tel +61 3 9338 6286 Mobile  +61 19 939 799 EraseMEdonmckspamtbsa.com.au    ;#
 Check My Promo Disk at http://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/~sis/mirror/don/    ;$
 Type: 'finger RemoveMEdonmckEraseMEspamEraseMEtbsa.com.au|more'  for more information.

1995\11\03@135917 by Timothy McDonough DIAL UP1

flavicon
face
> >      Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
> >      give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
> >      The real world can be a scary place!
>
> What is the E-mail address of this guy in Taiwan, I can't get constant
> prices or supplies in Australia, and MicroChip offer no alternatives for
> me.

I'm not trying to single out anyone in particular but I'm curious to know
whether the people who complain so much about price, etc. sell their own
products, services, labor at bargain basement prices just because the
people who buy from them don't want to pay very much?

When you see low prices like Mot 6805J1A's for <$2 you have to remember
that they're on allocation half the time, they're more difficult to buy
in one's and tens, etc. Considering the overhead involved I doubt if any
manufacturer of mcu's would be in business on the money they make (lose?)
selling one or two pieces to an individual.

I'm not affiliated with Microchip. They're just one of the many suppliers
I deal with in an effort to earn a living for my family.

Tim McDonough

1995\11\03@173116 by John Bean

flavicon
face
>> >      Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
>> >      give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
>> >      The real world can be a scary place!
>>
>> What is the E-mail address of this guy in Taiwan, I can't get constant
>> prices or supplies in Australia, and MicroChip offer no alternatives for
>> me.
>
>I'm not trying to single out anyone in particular but I'm curious to know
>whether the people who complain so much about price, etc. sell their own
>products, services, labor at bargain basement prices just because the
>people who buy from them don't want to pay very much?
>
I worked for a company that made garage door openers radios, about 1.2
million units a year. We would let a 40k/year engineer work for three weeks
to eliminate one jumper on a single sided board. At .3 cents each it cost
many thousands of dollars to use that part.

In addition we would let work an extra two or three weeks on a layout just
to get the parts lined up so the head on the automatic insertion machine
did not have to turn. That turn takes about half a second but it works out
to several man-weeks per year of machine time in the quantities we were
doing.

I felt sorry, well sometimes, for the parts manufacturers. We used to beat
them mercilessly. I remember meeting 3 different EEPROM makers on the same
day to try to save a penny a part. Again, a penny is not much, but 1.2
million of them is something to write home about. And in this case we saved
7 of those shiny pennys on each EEPROM.

Our market was extreamly competitive. Eventually, someone was importing a
finished product for less than we could buy the parts for.

Now I am back in my own company doing custom stuff. Usually, it just
doesn't matter how much something costs. Nothing is more important than
time. I have used a MC68HC811E2 at $18.00 each to do a  485 bus keyswitch
box that interfaced a switch and two leds. It was cheaper, on 50 pcs, to
use the $900 worth of parts than it would have been to spend a week
re-writing the serial protocol for a 6805 or PIC.

And as far as allocation, it's part of life in the mass production game.
Saving some cost later is better than never saving it at all. Also, you
schedule say 50,000 pcs a month of something to keep the pipeline moving
and then take bigger sums when they are available.

John Bean

Advanced Telemetry Systems
RemoveMEjrbspam_OUTspamKILLspamgate.net

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