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'Why PIC versus the 68HC11 (especially the PIC16C74'
1998\12\14@014930 by Ry Lato

picon face
I have been working on project for about 2 years using the PIC family of
microcontrollers. I now am starting to regret ever using PICs. It seems
that a 68HC11 will do almost everything a PIC can with many advantages
over a PIC. For one thing, I could have done debugging without an
expensive emulator. An eval board with buffalo monitor would have
worked. In volume the PIC16C74 costs about $5 in volumes of 100 from
digikey. The HC11 can be bought for about $1 these days. The HC11 also
has on-board flash. A savings of another $1. When you have 4
microcontrollers in a consumer product, those savings can be
significant. I also would not have had to deal with tedious an
meticulous chore of  bank switching, whether in program code or ram
pages My question, is why are people choosing the PIC family of
microcontrollers over the HC11, especially the PIC16C74? Perhaps I am
missing something.


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1998\12\14@022434 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
Ry Lato wrote:
>
> I have been working on project for about 2 years using the PIC family of
> microcontrollers. I now am starting to regret ever using PICs. It seems
> that a 68HC11 will do almost everything a PIC can with many advantages
> over a PIC. For one thing, I could have done debugging without an
> expensive emulator. An eval board with buffalo monitor would have
> worked. In volume the PIC16C74 costs about $5 in volumes of 100 from
> digikey. The HC11 can be bought for about $1 these days. The HC11 also
> has on-board flash. A savings of another $1. When you have 4
> microcontrollers in a consumer product, those savings can be
> significant. I also would not have had to deal with tedious an
> meticulous chore of  bank switching, whether in program code or ram
> pages My question, is why are people choosing the PIC family of
> microcontrollers over the HC11, especially the PIC16C74? Perhaps I am
> missing something.

In some cases (like ours) a project may run out of ROM or RAM. After
all the money spent on development on the code and hardware, it
becomes very expensive to port everything to a new platform.

Hobbyists (like most of the PIClisters) also don't appreciate
having to buy new programmers, dev boards etc.

If you ask a Motorola FAE (very) nicely, they'll give you a
development board, software, a few parts etc. Try that with Mchip.

I share your views on the pricing of the Midrange and higher PICs.
It baffles me completely why anyone would want to buy a 17C$$$.
It is nothing less than financial masochism.

The new flash parts will be a good indicator of how serious Mchip
is about grabbing the world market. If the 16C7$$$ and above OTP
parts don't come down by 50%, they're doomed. The flash parts will
also have to be at least 15% cheaper than what the OTP's are
selling for now to seriously compete with Motorola.

We've already started using Motorola instead of Mchip on some
products. The projected 20% price INCREASE in the 16F8$$$ parts
next year will make it just that much easier to justify dumping
Mchip on new projects. Are these guys on a different planet?

Geez - it's like there are two persons in charge - one with
savvy for the 12CXXX, and Rip van Winkel in charge of the
rest of the PICs. The prices on the 12CXXX are sooooooo good....

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1998\12\14@033225 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
    In volume the PIC16C74 costs about $5 in volumes of 100 from
   digikey. The HC11 can be bought for about $1 these days. The HC11 also
   has on-board flash.

Really?  Tell me where I can get 100 68HC11's with flash (only some have it)
for less than $500!  (or be branded a troll!)

Otherwise, we may be in agreement.  I don't find the 40pin PICs particularly
interesting, except perhaps for scaling up a design based originally based
on a smaller PIC.  By the time you get to 40 pins, there's a lot of
competition from multiply-sourced architectures with lots of different
versions.  OTOH, I don't think there are any 68HC11 varients with fewer than
40 pins, are there?

BillW

1998\12\14@050235 by g.daniel.invent.design

flavicon
face
$1.00 for a 68HC11 ?
this has got to be a sick joke,

last time I asked 68HC11A was $28.00 NZ from Arrow (wholesale
distributor), other parts were not in stock. years ago I actually made a
IDE X-assembler/editor/downloader with running home built interface on
an Astrad 664 PC, it all worked, but finally I woke up to the fact that
the 68HC11 series were just not cost effective.

Motorola have a history of indoctrinating students into the Motorola way
by giving special deals to Universities, they sure catch up on price
afterwards. Sounds like you've been the victim of a strong Motorola
sales pitch.

Stocks are also important, to the best of my knoledge Microchip so far
has a better history of "just in time delivery" + reserve stocks, look
on Motorola's web site and there are sometimes messages about big
delays, this has been a big problem for Motorola recently. Imagine
completing a major design and finding out that no parts will be
available for X months.

The 68HC11 series does have a nice pheripheral range and instruction
set(slow), but so do the Atmel Mega, SGS Thomson ST92F103 and Hitachi
H8S, they also feature 128k Flash program memory, EEPROM, Analog,
SCI/s,SPI, high speed etc and have the benefit of deliverability.

Take a close look at most of the Microchip series and you will find a
large number of pin for pin compatible Micros with widely variable
pheripheral options, Motorola has a list of Micros to be phased out and
some of the 68HC11 series are on there.

Emulator ? either you have the money or you get to use your brain, it's
not a big deal unless you have a poor understanding of the chip and
don't read the manual and are pressed for time.

4 microcontrolers in a consumer product ? *really* necessary ? surely
you don't need 4 of exactly the same micro in one product, sounds pretty
unusual.

regards,
Graham Daniel.

Ry Lato wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\12\14@084821 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>> pages My question, is why are people choosing the PIC family of
>> microcontrollers over the HC11, especially the PIC16C74? Perhaps I am
>> missing something.

Because you can actually GET the Microchip parts.  Motorola is too busy
selling to Detroit.

Andy


==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\12\14@120220 by goflo

flavicon
face
My experience as well - Motorola has great products and tech support,
which I can rarely use, because I can't get them reliably...

Jack

Andy Kunz wrote:
>
> >> pages My question, is why are people choosing the PIC family of
> >> microcontrollers over the HC11, especially the PIC16C74? Perhaps I am
> >> missing something.
>
> Because you can actually GET the Microchip parts.  Motorola is too busy
> selling to Detroit.

1998\12\14@123142 by uter van ooijen / floortje hanneman

picon face
> My question, is why are people choosing the PIC family of
> microcontrollers over the HC11, especially the PIC16C74?

I am a hobbyist. I use the 16c84 and 16f84 because these chips used to be
the cheapest EEPROM (or FLASH) controllers available, with simple
programmer designs and plenty other info available on the web. If I had to
choose again I would also look at the low-end AVRs. Am I missing something?

regards,
Wouter.

1998\12\14@152111 by Ry Lato

picon face
>
>4 microcontrolers in a consumer product ? *really* necessary ? surely
>you don't need 4 of exactly the same micro in one product, sounds
pretty
>unusual.


It is a Digital Subwoofer Amplifier for car audio.
1st one controls analog filtering, analog switches, power supplies,
fuse monitoring, input gain control, serial port functions, power
supply monitoring, overload sensing etc, crude signal processing for
gain compression to eliminate amplifier clipping.
2nd monitors the amplifier output by acting as a resettable peak
detector.
3rd runs an LCD GUI and switch array built into the amplifier unit
4th runs a much more feature intensive LCD GUI and switch array as
 an optional remote control.



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1998\12\14@200927 by Jim Robertson

flavicon
face
At 08:43 14/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>> pages My question, is why are people choosing the PIC family of
>>> microcontrollers over the HC11, especially the PIC16C74? Perhaps I am
>>> missing something.
>
>Because you can actually GET the Microchip parts.  Motorola is too busy
>selling to Detroit.
>
>Andy
>
>
>==================================================================
>Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
>==================================================================

Actually, the big problem with motorola is that they are the biggest
consumers of their
own chips. When anything even looks like threatening their production,
guess if they
will opt for selling you a chip ($) or a motorola mobile phone or  pager
($$),  PBX ($$$) etc.

This is something to allways keep in mind. It has already proven itself the
ruin of those relying
on motorola chips in the past.

Jim
--------------------------------------------------------
Jim Robertson
Email: newfoundspamKILLspampipeline.com.au

http://www.pipeline.com.au/users/newfound
--------------------------------------------------------

1998\12\14@204026 by Eric Borcherding

picon face
Try looking into a NEC KO-K3 8-32 bit uC they have more HP.

Eric

1998\12\15@115650 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> Actually, the big problem with motorola is that they are the biggest
> consumers of their own chips. When anything even looks like threatening
> their production, guess if they will opt for selling you a chip ($) or a
> motorola mobile phone or pager ($$), PBX ($$$) etc.

You mean, exactly like Microsoft, who is making OSes (er..), Compilers,
and whatever else it is, that its customers make with it's tools, at half
the price, and even offers to upgrade Borland C compilers to M$ C++ 6.0
automatically ? This world is definitely much more interesting than I
thought.  Needs more study. ;)

Peter

PS: Sorry, I could not resist. Riding sharks has always been an
interesting sport (when watching from far off). ;)

1998\12\15@200254 by Jim Robertson

flavicon
face
At 17:37 15/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> Actually, the big problem with motorola is that they are the biggest
>> consumers of their own chips. When anything even looks like threatening
>> their production, guess if they will opt for selling you a chip ($) or a
>> motorola mobile phone or pager ($$), PBX ($$$) etc.
>
>You mean, exactly like Microsoft, who is making OSes (er..), Compilers,
>and whatever else it is, that its customers make with it's tools, at half
>the price, and even offers to upgrade Borland C compilers to M$ C++ 6.0
>automatically ? This world is definitely much more interesting than I
>thought.  Needs more study. ;)
>
>Peter
>
>PS: Sorry, I could not resist. Riding sharks has always been an
>interesting sport (when watching from far off). ;)

One of us has missed the point completely and I'm not putting my hand-up.
Motorola makes more money on their own chips when they sell them in
their own value added products. If there is a problem with the supply of
motorola chips, they are going to keep what chips that are available for
their own consumer products and not sell to average Joe Blow.

What does this have to do with microsoft who aren't ever going to run out of
electrons?

Jim
--------------------------------------------------------
Jim Robertson
Email: .....newfoundKILLspamspam.....pipeline.com.au

http://www.pipeline.com.au/users/newfound
--------------------------------------------------------

1998\12\15@202159 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
Putting pieces together, it sounds like motarola USED to have "lots" of
chip variants in their databook, some of which were probably just chips
they used in their internal products (which were near-impossible to get
unless you wanted 10k or more.)  Now, they're re-organizing and have divided
the list into their "no excuses OTP" chips, which should become easy to
obtain, their "digital DNA" "put a cpu core and peripherals in your own
asic" thing (for those big customers), and parts that will be "discontinued."

Sounds good to me, or it will be AFTER the transition anyway.

Just a theory, mind you...

BillW

PS: Still waiting to hear about the source of those cheap 68CH11s!

1998\12\16@020032 by Kevin Fisk

flavicon
face
>
> One of us has missed the point completely and I'm not putting my hand-up.
> Motorola makes more money on their own chips when they sell them in
> their own value added products. If there is a problem with the supply of
> motorola chips, they are going to keep what chips that are available for
> their own consumer products and not sell to average Joe Blow.

OK, I'm going to way in for a moment only because I have a little experience
here. I have never work **for** Motorola, but our company worked **with** a
Motorola group whose mandate was NOT to use Motorola Microcontrollers. They
said their reason was.... surprise! They "couldn't get any". Even people in
their own organization where put on allocation. Now all this is going back
3-4 years so things have perhaps changed. I did find those comments rather
surprising at the time.

The people I spoke with said the different groups where essentially
completely isolated companies. Again, this may have changed, and I would
hope it has if I was a Motorola employee.

Just my 0.02 worth.....

Cheers,

Kevin

1998\12\16@052053 by g.daniel.invent.design

flavicon
face
But we can give them *.hex files for ROM versions right ?
Please, this is a sick joke and I know it.

Jim Robertson wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
Steam engines may be out of fashion, but when you consider that an
internal combustion engine would require recovery of waste heat by
transfer just before top dead centre then fashion becomes rather
redundant, USE STRATIFIED HEAT EXCHANGERS ! and external combustion.

You heard it first from: Graham Daniel, managing director of Electronic
Product Enhancements.
Phone NZ 04 387 4347, Fax NZ 04 3874348, Cellular NZ 021 954 196.

1998\12\16@083905 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>Motorola group whose mandate was NOT to use Motorola Microcontrollers. They
>said their reason was.... surprise! They "couldn't get any". Even people in
>their own organization where put on allocation. Now all this is going back

I have had the exact same experience.

Andy


==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\12\16@083910 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>What does this have to do with microsoft who aren't ever going to run out of
>electrons?

Microsoft will undersell its customers who sell against Microsoft.

It's like having Ford build engines for Chevrolet to sell against Ford
cars.  Oh wait, that sounds like American Motors!  (Actually that's a good
point).

Andy


==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\12\16@123730 by kfisk

flavicon
face
>
> One of us has missed the point completely and I'm not putting my
hand-up.
> Motorola makes more money on their own chips when they sell them in
> their own value added products. If there is a problem with the supply
of
> motorola chips, they are going to keep what chips that are available
for
> their own consumer products and not sell to average Joe Blow.

OK, I'm going to way in for a moment only because I have a little
experience
here. I have never work **for** Motorola, but our company worked
**with** a
Motorola group whose mandate was NOT to use Motorola Microcontrollers.
They
said their reason was.... surprise! They "couldn't get any". Even people
in
their own organization where put on allocation. Now all this is going
back
3-4 years so things have perhaps changed. I did find those comments
rather
surprising at the time.

The people I spoke with said the different groups where essentially
completely isolated companies. Again, this may have changed, and I would
hope it has if I was a Motorola employee.

Just my 0.02 worth.....

Cheers,

Kevin

1998\12\16@191838 by Mark A Moss

picon face
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:29:49 +0200 Tjaart van der Walt
<tjaartspamspam_OUTWASP.CO.ZA> writes:

>We've already started using Motorola instead of Mchip on some
>products. The projected 20% price INCREASE in the 16F8$$$ parts
>next year will make it just that much easier to justify dumping
>Mchip on new projects. Are these guys on a different planet?

I believe they frequently refer to themselves as *Planet Microchip* on
their website.

Mark Moss
Amateur Radio Operator, Technician, and General Tinkerer

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1998\12\16@191840 by Mark A Moss

picon face
I work for a company that makes surgical power tools and related systems.
One control console uses two micros.  One controls all the functions of
the console (motor switching, reading the ROM from the foot switch and
hand pieces, checking temp's, etc.) and the other controls the highly
graphical touch screen.  Works great.

Mark Moss
Amateur Radio Operator, Technician, and General Tinkerer


On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:19:18 PST Ry Lato <@spam@picky77KILLspamspamHOTMAIL.COM> writes:
>>
>>4 microcontrolers in a consumer product ? *really* necessary ?
>surely
>>you don't need 4 of exactly the same micro in one product, sounds
>pretty
>>unusual.

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1998\12\17@033920 by Ry Lato

picon face
>
>PS: Still waiting to hear about the source of those cheap 68CH11s!

This was a price that I was given by a motorola app. engineer
while in college about 2 years ago, when we were using the 68000
processor in a class I took. It was for large volumes (~100K).



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1998\12\17@040647 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
Ry Lato wrote:
>
> >
> >PS: Still waiting to hear about the source of those cheap 68CH11s!
>
> This was a price that I was given by a motorola app. engineer
> while in college about 2 years ago, when we were using the 68000
> processor in a class I took. It was for large volumes (~100K).

I wonder if someone's got an up-to-date comparison between
different micro's. Score to be calculated on the basis of :
1) Price in quantities 100 and 5k pieces
2) ROM/RAM size
3) Memory technology (OTP vs. Flash)
4) Second-source availability
5) Hardware dev tools price (like ICE, programmers etc)
6) Software dev tools price (compilers, IDE's etc)
7) Internal Functionality (Stack access, Program memory
   access, interrupt handling, peripherals like AD, PWM,
   UARTS etc)
8) Availability
9) FAE Support
10) App note availability
11) Upwards migration path through ALL devices
12) Evironmental specs (IO current, temp, supply voltage)

I think the outcome will hold a few surprises...

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1998\12\17@104332 by NCS Products

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>We've already started using Motorola instead of Mchip on some
>products. The projected 20% price INCREASE in the 16F8$$$ parts
>next year will make it just that much easier to justify dumping

Oh?  Is this posted on the website?

>Mchip on new projects. Are these guys on a different planet?

Yes, they're on "Planet Microchip".  ;-)

1998\12\20@234336 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
NCS Products wrote:
>
> >We've already started using Motorola instead of Mchip on some
> >products. The projected 20% price INCREASE in the 16F8$$$ parts
> >next year will make it just that much easier to justify dumping
>
> Oh?  Is this posted on the website?

No. This was the indication I received from here. Someone
from overseas confirmed that they got the same information.
The same thing happened with the 8k devices. (C76 & C77)

>
> >Mchip on new projects. Are these guys on a different planet?
>
> Yes, they're on "Planet Microchip".  ;-)

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'Why PIC versus the 68HC11 (especially the PIC16C74'
1999\01\11@120911 by Larry G. Nelson Sr.
flavicon
face
Another point in Microchips favor is they have not discontinued a processor
unlike Motorola. Microchip also has never burned me with allocation problems.



At 12:32 AM 12/14/98 PST, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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