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PICList Thread
'What Schematic/PCB software to use - some addition'
1998\07\06@145009 by Montaigne, Mike

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I was all set to buy PADDS (after previous threads in this group and
other cad newsgroups advice; I am using DOS TANGO & ORCAD now), so I
signed up for the 3 day course on using PADDS  as everyone has different
preferences and I wanted to see if I could live with the product.
Conclusions: PADDS is NOT (IMHO) user friendly, but it is stable and
after I used it, and went through a lot of pain, I probably could do
some useful work.  PADDS also comes with the best router around but
routers are not very useful on analog, which I do a lot of.  Few
people, (actually no-one I could find) like or even use the schematic
draw portion of PADDS.  The manufacture claims that the schematic
problems will be fixed in the next major rewrite which is coming out
"soon" which means two years after that, we can use it too.  Everyone I
talked to, used some other schematic package and generated a net list to
import to PADDS with the usual incompatibility problems that this
process usually has.  I looked briefly at EAGLE and appreciate the two
positive comments aired on this newsgroup.  I could not get any previous
comments on the package.  It seems a bit "new kid on the block" to me
and I am/was afraid to buy it.  Orcad has a very bad reputation on the
CADS newsgroups.  They are a big company and hopefully they will get
their act together before all their users give up in disgust.  My front
runner right now is ACCEL.  Because I know TANGO, the learning curve is
not too difficult for me, and they seem to have the interface between
schematic and PCB package fairly refined.  I tried a small board from
schematic to finished PCB and the process seemed to go well, including
the back annotation.  The negative is the package is very expensive
(again IMHO), even more expensive than PADDS because I need to make
boards with more than 1500 holes some times, and the next upgrade (I
think to 6000 holes) is a few grand.  I am by no means an expert on this
subject and would appreciate any comments on the above.  I am just a
user who has to upgrade eventually, and can't afford to make a very
expensive mistake.

Mike Montaigne

{Quote hidden}

1998\07\06@153321 by Smargiassi

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I like you have used Orcad for many years.  Its a DOS verion.  It is
not to stable on a WIN95 system.  After nine years of dealing with
Orcad's bugs, I gave up.  I am now using Protel and so far it seems
easier to use and can produce a good board.  The learning curve was
reasonable and the price was OK for the depth of the produce.  Orcad's
upgrade price is too, too high.  Other "professional" packages are too
expensive.  I think they are supporting the overhead of too many corp.
buyouts.  The software design cost does not justify a $10K price for
for a good stable package.

Paul Smargiassi

Montaigne, Mike wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\07\06@155827 by Max Toole

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Do any of you have any experience with the PCBoards by Mental Automation?
DIgi-Key sells it.  I have been using it and it seems to work pretty well.

Thanks,
Max

1998\07\06@160317 by Dave Miga

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Montaigne, Mike wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Have you considered TraxMaker? This is the improved version 2.06 just
recently released. If you remember ProTel Easytrax from the DOS days,
you will like TraxMaker. check out http://www.microcode.com  They also
have a simulator/schematic package that ties into TraxMaker; it's called
CircuitMaker.   -Dave Miga, EDS Inc. http://www.eds-inc.com

1998\07\06@165009 by mwalsh

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Dave Miga wrote:

> Have you considered TraxMaker? This is the improved version 2.06 just
> recently released. If you remember ProTel Easytrax from the DOS days,
> you will like TraxMaker. check out http://www.microcode.com  They also
> have a simulator/schematic package that ties into TraxMaker; it's called
> CircuitMaker.   -Dave Miga, EDS Inc. http://www.eds-inc.com


I recently upgraded to Microcode's Traxmaker & CircuitMaker Pro versions.
I had been using a DOS version of Protel's Autotrax and since the schematic
package was so bad I used the DOS version of Tango for those.

I was told that Microcode bought the rights to Autotrax, and I've noticed
that
I can read my old PCB files with Traxmaker.  It doesn't support back
annotation
and I can't really comment on the router since I haven't used it, but
otherwise
the package seems solid so far.  It doesn't have all the bells and whistles
that you
find in the higher priced software, but I almost never used any of them even
when
they have been available.

The package was about US $1400.00, but they have others available if you
don't need their professional version.

Mark Walsh

1998\07\06@194238 by nino.benci

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Paul wrote...

> I like you have used Orcad for many years.  Its a DOS verion.  It is
> not to stable on a WIN95 system.  After nine years of dealing with

I have used Orcad SDT3 on a Win95 system for 2 years now with no ill
effects BUT only in VGA 640*480 16 colour mode. Otherwise its fine. I
concur with your comments on pricing, the upgrade option is well
beyond my finances.

> Orcad's bugs, I gave up.  I am now using Protel and so far it seems
> easier to use and can produce a good board.  The learning curve was
> reasonable and the price was OK for the depth of the produce.  Orcad's
> upgrade price is too, too high.  Other "professional" packages are too
> expensive.  I think they are supporting the overhead of too many corp.
> buyouts.  The software design cost does not justify a $10K price for
> for a good stable package.
>
> Paul Smargiassi
>
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1998\07\06@195418 by David VanHorn
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>> I like you have used Orcad for many years.  Its a DOS verion.  It is
>> not to stable on a WIN95 system.  After nine years of dealing with
>
>I have used Orcad SDT3 on a Win95 system for 2 years now with no ill
>effects BUT only in VGA 640*480 16 colour mode. Otherwise its fine. I
>concur with your comments on pricing, the upgrade option is well
>beyond my finances.


Don't try it with an Adrenaline Rush video card.  They lock up the system
at random intervals when the video mode changes.

1998\07\07@090216 by Smargiassi

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I was using SDT386 and PCB386, it was the last dos upgrade before they
stopped supporting the program.  I would work in VESA supper VGA
(600x800) mode but nothing higher after WIN95.  Compiling a netslist
was an if'y thing.  Had to reboot in different modes to get it to run.
I could not plot.  If a printing error occured, I would be thrown into
windows and the program would crash.  I never got it to run under NT.
I am a consultant and offen work by the project.  A program like Orcad
could greatly reduce my income.  Never again.
Paul Smargiassi

Antonio Benci wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\07\07@092809 by Pavel Korensky

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At 14:48 6.7.1998 -0400, you wrote:
>process usually has.  I looked briefly at EAGLE and appreciate the two
>positive comments aired on this newsgroup.  I could not get any previous
>comments on the package.  It seems a bit "new kid on the block" to me
>and I am/was afraid to buy it.  Orcad has a very bad reputation on the

Eagle is not sooo new. We are using the Eagle software for more than 4 years.
I think that the problem why this package is not generally known is the
fact that Eagle is written by German company and their marketing
(especially in US) is not so strong.

Bye PavelK

**************************************************************************
* Pavel Korensky                                                         *
* DATOR3 LAN Services spol. s r.o.                                       *
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**************************************************************************

1998\07\07@101717 by Craig Webb

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I missed the start of this thread - what was the URL where I can download
"Eagle" schematic software?

Thanks

Craig

At 02:12 PM 7/7/98 +0200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\07\07@103910 by AA9LA

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I have had good luck with CIRCAD.  It is a very powerful, but reasonably
priced package
for both schematic and board drawings.

See: http://www.holophase.com/

..EUGENE..  (AE2F - "Always Easy To Find")

1998\07\07@121050 by Dan Larson

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On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:53:08 -0400, Craig Webb wrote:

>I missed the start of this thread - what was the URL where I can download
>"Eagle" schematic software?
>
>Thanks
>
>Craig
>

http://www.cadsoft.de/

1998\07\07@123627 by Bob Shaver

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We have been using PADS PCB (now PowerPCB) for over 10 years, and PADS
LOGIC (schematic entry) since they created it.  LOGIC has _ALWAYS_ been
better that ORCAD as far as preventing various "drafting" mistakes like
dangling or unconnected connection lines.  We also use the ability to
back-annotate from PCB to the schematic (which gets MUCH harder when you
use a schematic package from another vendor).  Finally, the new versions
allow you to cross-probe between the SCH and PCB files (i.e. tag a net in
PCB and it highlights in the schematic).  Even if you don't use the
autorouter, the autorouter-like functions are very nice.  For example, it
can automatically push (or shove) existing tracks apart to make room for
the track you are routing.  Granted, specially in analog, you may have to
clean up the moved track, but it saves time because you don't have to stop
routing the first track, select the existing track and re-route it, then go
back and select the original track again.

The drawbacks are price, price and price (cheap by Mentor standards, but
expensive compared to some pared-down systems).
The user-interface takes a little getting used to, but is much better than
the old DOS menu system.

On Monday, July 06, 1998 2:49 PM, Montaigne, Mike [SMTP:RemoveMEmontaignemTakeThisOuTspamAECL.CA]
wrote:
{Quote hidden}

<<--- snip -->>

1998\07\07@124945 by Pavel Korensky

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At 09:53 7.7.1998 -0400, you wrote:
>I missed the start of this thread - what was the URL where I can download
>"Eagle" schematic software?
>
>Thanks
>
>Craig

look at http://www.cadsoft.de or http://www.cadsoft.com
There should be some demo on their site.

Best regards

PavelK

**************************************************************************
* Pavel Korensky                                                         *
* DATOR3 LAN Services spol. s r.o.                                       *
* Modranska 1895/17, 143 00, Prague 4, Czech Republic                    *
*                                                                        *
* PGP Key fingerprint:  F3 E1 AE BC 34 18 CB A6  CC D0 DA 9E 79 03 41 D4 *
*                                                                        *
* SUMMA SCIENTIA - NIHIL SCIRE                                           *
**************************************************************************

1998\07\07@132913 by William Chops Westfield

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www.douglas.com has release a freeware version of their Mac PCB cad program,
downloadable from their web site.  Don't know much about it...

BillW

1998\07\12@204804 by marcel

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Hi back from holiday's about to do some pcb stuff i did look at there
webpages
is verry interesting but does anybody work with Electonicworkbench
from  interactive.com it is schematics spice and pcb design
i work on an apple machine but software fore this work is expensive for apple

and i think outdated any body with recommendations?


Marcel Electronic Workshop Scoop
Amsterdam
spamBeGonemarbelspamBeGonespamxs4all.nl


Pavel Korensky wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\07\13@050919 by Morgan Olsson

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>i work on an apple machine but software fore this work is expensive for apple
>
>and i think outdated any body with recommendations?
>
Buy a used PC!
The CAD programs usually need a lot less power than for instance the editor
MS Word...

/Morgan
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  TakeThisOuTmrtEraseMEspamspam_OUTiname.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\07\13@064150 by Caisson

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> Van: marcel <RemoveMEmarbelspamTakeThisOuTXS4ALL.NL>
> Aan: PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: Re: What Schematic/PCB software to use - some additional
comments
> Datum: maandag 13 juli 1998 2:52
>
> Hi back from holiday's about to do some pcb stuff i did look at there
> webpages
> is verry interesting but does anybody work with Electonicworkbench
> from  interactive.com it is schematics spice and pcb design
> i work on an apple machine but software fore this work is expensive for
apple
>
> and i think outdated any body with recommendations?

To my amasement EWB uses the PCB software from ULTIBOARD.  I have to work
with that stuff (UltiCap & UltiBoard).  I _STRONGLY_ advice anyone to stay
away from this un-developped, un-debugged and overrated piece of software.

They have not even learned in 12 _YEARS_ to write a decent tutorial/
reference manual.  The PCB version I've got has got a win95 help-file ...
Allmost all subjects are still 'under construction'  and the rest just
states that they found the best sulution to {whatever}.  What the solution
is/was they don't state ...

Be perfect when you use Ulti Cap/Board stuff, because to edit something
that is already on the board is a heck of a job.  Ever tried to move a
45-degree ange wire ?  Seen it degrade to a stair-case ?  Well, I have.
Nowerdays I think i'ts easier to remove the trace & to re-draw it.

I could go on-and-on :-(

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

P.s.
 They (UltiBoard) have got a Help-desk.  The want You to upgrade to the
next version, or to wait for the next-even-better version. :-(((

1998\07\14@023752 by David Peterson (NOSPAM)

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>>i work on an apple machine but software fore this work is expensive for apple
>>
>>and i think outdated any body with recommendations?
>>
>Buy a used PC!
>The CAD programs usually need a lot less power than for instance the editor
>MS Word...
>
>/Morgan
>/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
>\  EraseMEmrtspaminame.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

Mac users
Don't buy a PC....................
There is freeware PCB called 'layout' available
Although I have a copy I have not used it as yet, but have heard good reports
also I use EWB on a 6030 Mac and find it adequate if a bit slow
on the old girl, it really flies on a Power Mac.
Availability? Email me direct.
Regards David

Remove (NOSPAM)Before replying.

I halve a spelling checker; It came with my pea sea.
It plainly marks four my revue Mistakes I dew not sea.
I've sent this message threw it, And I'm shore pleased to no
It's letter perfect in its weigh; My checker tolled me sew.

1998\07\14@074645 by Caisson

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> Van: Caisson <RemoveMEcaissonEraseMEspamEraseMETELEBYTE.NL>
> Aan: RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: Re: What Schematic/PCB software to use - some additional
comments
> Datum: maandag 13 juli 1998 10:57

Sorry guys, my reply to the above subject should have been
person-to-person.
Just pressed the wrong button.  My mistake (or was it ? I'm not sure :-)

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

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