Searching \ for 'Using Picstart+ for production programming' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/microchip/devprogs.htm?key=programming
Search entire site for: 'Using Picstart+ for production programming'.

Truncated match.
PICList Thread
'Using PicStart+ for production programming'
1998\11\18@141557 by Jeff Jolie

flavicon
face
part 0 806 bytes
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3510.1400"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I don't have a production programmer but would like to use the
picstart+ to burn chips for a short production run (15).&nbsp; Does anyone have
experience as to how reliable the picstart+ will burn chips.&nbsp; During
several months of product development I have never had a problem with chips
burned with the picstart+.&nbsp; If I reburn the chips several times will this
help? Can anyone recommend a good production programmer for doing short
production runs (100) for a reasonable amount of
money?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>

1998\11\18@152941 by Octavio Nogueira

flavicon
face
part 0 2947 bytes
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
   <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>Assunto: </B>Using PicStart+ for production
   programming<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
   <DIV><FONT size=2>I don't have a production programmer but would like to use
   the picstart+ to burn chips for a short production run (15).&nbsp; Does
   anyone have experience as to how reliable the picstart+ will burn
   chips.&nbsp; During several months of product development I have never had a
   problem with chips burned with the picstart+.&nbsp; If I reburn the chips
   several times will this help? Can anyone recommend a good production
   programmer for doing short production runs (100) for a reasonable amount of
   money?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>I know one company had to remove 1000 PICs from
returned</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT><FONT size=2>board because of programming
error by Picstart+. The boards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>failed on the field.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I would suggest you ProPic 2 Gold. Take a look at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><A
href="http://www.propic2.com">www.propic2.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Octavio</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000
size=2>==============================================<BR>Octavio Nogueira - <A
href="spam_OUTnogueiraTakeThisOuTspampropic2.com">.....nogueiraKILLspamspam@spam@propic2.com</A> ICQ#
19841898<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; From the creator of ProPic,&nbsp;&nbsp; ProPic 2&nbsp;
now much better<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; New ProPic 2
homepage:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A
href="http://www.propic2.com">http://www.propic2.com</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PIC Programmer for Windows with down to earth price
<BR>==============================================</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>

1998\11\18@205905 by russellh

picon face
> Jeff Jolie wrote:
>
> I don't have a production programmer but would like to use the
> picstart+ to burn chips for a short production run (15).  Does anyone
> have experience as to how reliable the picstart+ will burn chips.

<snip>

The Picstart programs and verifies at 5 volts. So operation at the
margines isn't guaranteed, or even tested for. A production programmer
programs and verifies at high and low line, as published in the data
sheet. If you don't do that, then voltages that the PIC is spec'ed to
run at might not work.

Russell Hedges

1998\11\19@124531 by bill bass

picon face
My understanding on the major difference between a professional
programmer versus a PICSTART Plus is the lack of verification check at
+/-10% of 5V power supply to the PIC. Correct me if I am wrong.

Why can't we just program the PIC with the PICSTART Plus and then test
the PIC in the final product with the supply adjusted to 4.5 and 5.5
volt??  It may be time consumming though.

If the PIC works at these voltages extremes, I would assume the PIC
has been programmed propertly - regardless of the programmer used.
This, if true and acceptable, will greatly help those on small
production run cases.

Sure hope somebody knowledgeable can clarify on this issue.

Thanks,

Bill Bass

{Quote hidden}

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

1998\11\19@153254 by Octavio Nogueira
flavicon
face
>My understanding on the major difference between a professional
>programmer versus a PICSTART Plus is the lack of verification check at
>+/-10% of 5V power supply to the PIC. Correct me if I am wrong.
>
>Why can't we just program the PIC with the PICSTART Plus and then test
>the PIC in the final product with the supply adjusted to 4.5 and 5.5
>volt??  It may be time consumming though.

Sorry but you are wrong. It's not +/- 10% of 5V most  of them need to be
tested at 2.5 V and 6V.

Octavio
==============================================
Octavio Nogueira - nogueiraspamKILLspampropic2.com ICQ# 19841898
  From the creator of ProPic,   ProPic 2  now much better
    New ProPic 2 homepage:    http://www.propic2.com
   PIC Programmer for Windows with down to earth price
==============================================

1998\11\19@221032 by bill bass

picon face
Hello, Octavio,

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Can you kindly also tell me, and others, if I can test the programmed
pic at 2.5V and 6V in the final product for verification check?
Also, I assume in yours Propic, you are really reading back the
program at the two extreme voltages.  I would think running the
program directly serve the same purpose.

Again, thanks and appreciate your assistance.

Bill Bass


> >My understanding on the major difference between a professional
> >programmer versus a PICSTART Plus is the lack of verification check
at
> >+/-10% of 5V power supply to the PIC. Correct me if I am wrong.
> >
> >Why can't we just program the PIC with the PICSTART Plus and then
test
> >the PIC in the final product with the supply adjusted to 4.5 and 5.5
> >volt??  It may be time consumming though.
>
Octavio wrote:

> Sorry but you are wrong. It's not +/- 10% of 5V most  of them need
to be
> tested at 2.5 V and 6V.
>


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

1998\11\20@062142 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
At 17:51 1998-11-18 -0800, you wrote:
>> Jeff Jolie wrote:
>>
>> I don't have a production programmer but would like to use the
>> picstart+ to burn chips for a short production run (15).  Does anyone
>> have experience as to how reliable the picstart+ will burn chips.
>
><snip>
>
>The Picstart programs and verifies at 5 volts. So operation at the
>margines isn't guaranteed, or even tested for. A production programmer
>programs and verifies at high and low line, as published in the data
>sheet. If you don't do that, then voltages that the PIC is spec'ed to
>run at might not work.
>
>Russell Hedges

Exactly what i«ve been thinking about today.
There is a 7085 in the picstart +.
I wonder if possible tu just exchange that for a variable one, and put a
knom on thePicstart so i can
set it to 5V and program the PIC,
set it  to 3V and verify,
then set it to 6V and verify
(or something like that)

I don«t know how that will affext the rest of the electrinocs in PICstart
however, like the PIC17, serial comm driver, or muxwe etc.

Another alternative is to build a adapter with level-translator, but that
would cause trouble if bidirectional lines.

But as PIC hat TTL level input (?) and rail-rail output probablu just
series resistors in th eused lines will do (except for VPP and GND), and we
can vary the supply voltage ecternally, gated by the +5V Picstart think it
is supplying.

(just a fast buffering OP with variable gain to set it to give 2...7 V @ 5V
signal in)

But it is probably not much harder to build one of the programmers others
sypply as kits etc.

And for long series it is not fun to run the Picstart in three passes for
each chip...

But anyway; do somebody have a scematic on the Picstart internals?

/Morgan
       Morgan Olsson                   ph  +46(0)414 70741
       MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK            fax +46(0)414 70331
       H€LLEKS           (in A-Z letters: "HALLEKAS")
       SE-277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN               .....mrtKILLspamspam.....iname.com
___________________________________________________________

1998\11\20@094851 by Octavio Nogueira

flavicon
face
>Hello, Octavio,
>
>Thanks for taking the time to answer.
>
>Can you kindly also tell me, and others, if I can test the programmed
>pic at 2.5V and 6V in the final product for verification check?
>Also, I assume in yours Propic, you are really reading back the
>program at the two extreme voltages.  I would think running the
>program directly serve the same purpose.
>
>Again, thanks and appreciate your assistance.
>
>Bill Bass

Hi Bill and others,
It's my pleasure to help.
I think running the code at both extremes is not as efficient as with a
production programmer. Also the programmer test if the chip is erased
at vdd min to assure a good erasing margin.
When you run the code, you could have some parts of it that are called
only if an external event occur, like interrupts, etc. You have to be sure
to run all parts of it.
And yes, the ProPic 2 Gold programmer is a production programmer.

Octavio
==============================================
Octavio Nogueira - EraseMEnogueiraspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpropic2.com ICQ# 19841898
  From the creator of ProPic,   ProPic 2  now much better
    New ProPic 2 homepage:    http://www.propic2.com
   PIC Programmer for Windows with down to earth price
==============================================

1998\11\20@135411 by andre

flavicon
face
Why bother with picstart plus if there is promate2 made for that.

Andre

bill bass wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\11\20@151151 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
Andre Abelian wrote:
>
> Why bother with picstart plus if there is promate2 made for that.
>
PicStart+:  approx $99.00 US
Promate 2:  over $1000.00 IIRC

The cost of the Promate is still less than failing product, though.

--Matt

1998\11\20@170945 by uter van ooijen / floortje hanneman

picon face
When you verify that your product works at the extremes of the supply
voltage,
can you then be sure that all the instructions read OK? I would not be
so sure (full path coverage etc.).
BTW there are also low-budget programmers who can verify at various
supply voltages (for instance my home-brew 16x84 programmer).
regards,
Wouter.

----------
{Quote hidden}

1998\11\20@175726 by andre

flavicon
face
Matt Bonner wrote:

> Andre Abelian wrote:
> >
> > Why bother with picstart plus if there is promate2 made for that.
> >
> PicStart+:  approx $99.00 US
> Promate 2:  over $1000.00 IIRC

No it is not over $ 1000

Check microchips web site $ 500 for Promate 2 and 150 for module


Andre

> The cost of the Promate is still less than failing product, though.
>
> --Matt

1998\11\23@143042 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
Andre Abelian wrote:
>
> Matt Bonner wrote:
>
> > Andre Abelian wrote:
> > >
> > > Why bother with picstart plus if there is promate2 made for that.
> > >
> > PicStart+:  approx $99.00 US
> > Promate 2:  over $1000.00 IIRC
>
> No it is not over $ 1000
>
> Check microchips web site $ 500 for Promate 2 and 150 for module
>
I guess that I did not recall correctly.  When I bought mine, I also
bought 2 modules.  That would take it to over $1000 Canadian.  I suppose
I should have walked down the hall to the file room and looked it up.
:-)

--Matt


'Using Picstart+ for production programming'
1998\12\02@152248 by John Payson
flavicon
face
>Why can't we just program the PIC with the PICSTART Plus and then test
>the PIC in the final product with the supply adjusted to 4.5 and 5.5
>volt??  It may be time consumming though.

|Sorry but you are wrong. It's not +/- 10% of 5V most  of them need to be
|tested at 2.5 V and 6V.

My interpretation of things is that the PIC needs to be verified
above/below any voltage level at which it might be used.  If a
part is only programmed/verified at VDD=5.0 volts, that part can
only be relied to run at VDD=5.0 volts.  By contrast, if the part
is verified at both 2.5 and 6.0 volts, then unless a smaller volt-
age range is specified for the desired clock speed the part may
safely be used at any voltage between 2.5 and 6.0 volts.

Note that, in practice, lower VDD values will cause marginally-
erased EPROM memory cells to read as programmed, and higher values
will cause marginal cells to read as blank.  Since all OTP devices
are shipped from the factory thoroughly blank, it is very unlikely
that an OTP device which programs/verifies at 5.0 volts would have
programming-related problems at any lower voltage.  On the other
hand, it is not uncommon for EPROMS that haven't been baked long
enough to read as blank at 5.00 volts but not at 2.5.  If such a
device is programmed in a 5-volt-only programmer and then used in
a low-voltage application, the PIC may misbehave strangely and biz-
arrely.

As for the 16C84/16F84, I believe that the current devices massively
over-erase and over-program their EEPROM, making VDD/programming
problems unlikely.  Nonetheless, if a 16x84 is not totally blank
before programming, the only way to be sure that it programmed corr-
ectly is to verify it at the lowest voltage at which it will be ex-
pected to run.

1998\12\04@113524 by bill bass

picon face
Hello,  John

Thanks for your time to answer. Your info supplied is something I
don't know.

Question:  (Pre-requisite) If I have a nice 5V regulator supplying the
PIC's power and only use brand new 16F84s for programming, can count
on and I still use the Picstart+ as a "production programmer"?

I hope my understanding on what you say is correct.  It also puzzled
me a bit why would I test a pic at, say 3V , if the chip will never
see 3V supply.

Thanks again.

Bill
> >Why can't we just program the PIC with the PICSTART Plus and then
test
> >the PIC in the final product with the supply adjusted to 4.5 and 5.5
> >volt??  It may be time consumming though.
>
> |Sorry but you are wrong. It's not +/- 10% of 5V most  of them need
to be
{Quote hidden}

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

1998\12\04@150113 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
bill bass wrote:
>
> Hello,  John
>
> Thanks for your time to answer. Your info supplied is something I
> don't know.
>
> Question:  (Pre-requisite) If I have a nice 5V regulator supplying the
> PIC's power and only use brand new 16F84s for programming, can count
> on and I still use the Picstart+ as a "production programmer"?
>
> I hope my understanding on what you say is correct.  It also puzzled
> me a bit why would I test a pic at, say 3V , if the chip will never
> see 3V supply.
>
Testing the PIC at the extreme voltage supply ranges stresses the PIC,
perhaps bringing out other flaws (for example, those caused by running
it at the maximum rated temperature extreme - something that a
production progammer can't check for). Also (especially with UV
devices), the PIC might appear completely erased at 5V, but a few flakey
zeros might appear at a voltage (or temperature) extreme.

--Matt

1998\12\04@160136 by paulb

flavicon
face
Bill Bass wrote:

> Question:  (Pre-requisite) If I have a nice 5V regulator supplying the
> PIC's power and only use brand new 16F84s for programming, can count
> on and I still use the Picstart+ as a "production programmer"?

 Well, not *really*!

> I hope my understanding on what you say is correct.  It also puzzled
> me a bit why would I test a pic at, say 3V , if the chip will never
> see 3V supply.

 Further to other replies, there are a least *three* variables to
consider; Vcc, Temperature, and *aging* (of both CPU and regulator, so
they interact).  Only one of these is *readily* adjustable by the
programmer, so a large variation in this is used in the understanding
that it will account for the other two.

 It may be however that a smaller range, such as 4.5 to 5.5V, or 4 to
6V, will account for the others if you really do intend to use the
device only at 5V.

 This can be achieved by inserting diodes in series with the reference
leg of the regulator (increases Vcc by 0.6V) and in series with the
output (drops it by 0.6V) and arranging manual switching to short or
open these diodes in sequence and do a final quick verify in all three
conditions.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\12\04@173159 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
I don't see why a Picstart+ can't be used for production, as long as you
are aware of what you are doing.

First of all, you'd never use a PIC in something life-sustaining, no
matter what programmer you used. The PIC is not intended for it(OK, some
of the new ones that have parity and can read their own code, blah blah).

The real question is, how many warranty or service returns are likely to
occur? Is is going to cost you enough money to justify buying a production
programmer?

The 16F84 is probably the least likely to flake out for want of a
production programmer, at least two reasons:
1) programming voltage internally generated.
2) timing not very critical when programming.

A tiny one-person company making a few dozen widgets(there's that word!)
may not find it worth the expense to buy a production programmer. Anything
bigger than that, I'd say get a production programmer.

Also, there are alternatives to the Picmaster. First, there are ones made
by one-person companies(Octavio's ProPic2). If you are anxious enough
about verification to consider a production programmer you probably feel
anxious about buying one from somebody you can't sic your lawyers on.
Second, there's the Needham's EMP-20. I've had one of those for years and
it's been very reliable(it also does other micros, eeproms, plds, flash
and eproms. A pretty good value($500usd). Don't buy it if you need to use
the very newest pics, because they are always 6 months behind with the new
personality modules($20 each).

If you are doing a zillion PICs, buy a Picmaster. No question.

Just my .02

-Bob

1998\12\07@153240 by uter van ooijen / floortje hanneman

picon face
> A tiny one-person company making a few dozen widgets(there's that word!)
> may not find it worth the expense to buy a production programmer.
Anything
> bigger than that, I'd say get a production programmer.

My WISP programmer can do in-circuit production programming
(4.0 - 6.0) for 16c84 and 16f84's when they are fed by a 7805 or similar.
The design, fimware etc are available for free: http://www.xs4all/~wf/wouter/wisp

I have seen even simpeler designs on the web which can do the same
(though not in-circuit I think).  I don't have the URLs at hand.

But as said, the 16x84's are the least likely to be affected by VCC-related
programming problems.

regards,
Wouter.


'Using Picstart+ for production programming'
1999\01\12@174506 by John Payson
flavicon
face
|  Further to other replies, there are a least *three* variables to
|consider; Vcc, Temperature, and *aging* (of both CPU and regulator, so
|they interact).  Only one of these is *readily* adjustable by the
|programmer, so a large variation in this is used in the understanding
|that it will account for the other two.

Right, but if successful verification of a part at VDDmin (as
opposed to something lower) is sufficient to assure operation at
VDDmin under all temperature/aging variations, and if verification
at VDDmax (as opposed to something higher) is sufficient to assure
operation at VDDmax under all temperature/aging variations, is
there any reason to expect that verification at VDDnom will not
ensure correct operation at VDDnom?

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 1999 , 2000 only
- Today
- New search...