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PICList Thread
'[OT] Reed Relay problem for 16C84 based truck ligh'
1998\01\21@154347 by Bryson, William G (Bill)

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I am using a 16C84 PIC to create a light bar for the 5 marker lamps (Cabover
lights) on top of a Chevrolet Truck. The lights scroll left or right when
that respective blinker is on. They also all blink in sync with the
Emergency Flashers and are all on solid with when the parking lamps are on
(with no blinker or flashers). For the record, I have 3 inputs:  left /
right blinker, and parking lights.

The 5 light outputs from the PIC are input into a 74LS04, Hex Inverter. The
5 outputs of the Hex Inverter drive the coils of 5 Radio Shack 5VDC Reed
Relays (part# 275-232).  The relay contacts are passing 13 to 13.8V to the
lights. The current for each light is about 275ma (.275 Amps).

The problem is the CONTACTS of the reed relays are sticking intermittently.
Any of the 5 contacts may stick. The coil voltage is not the problem. The
contacts may still be stuck after powering down the circuit  and powering
back up without any power to the coil.  I have also shorted the coil while
the contacts are stuck to no avail.

Heat is NOT the problem for the sticky contacts.  The contacts have become
stuck immediately after the entire system had sat for hours. However,
sometimes it is necessary to cool the system for several seconds to unstick
the contacts.

I would appreciate any technical input anyone might be able to provide.

On a lesser note, I have been unable to locate the manufacturer of the
relay. There is an 'OMR' or 'DMR' and a 'DEG' name on the relay. Any ideas
on who and where this company is located.

Thanks....

-------------------------------------------------
Work all day & night,
deliver on time & on budget,       Regards,
and justice for all...             Bill Bryson

1998\01\21@155220 by Andrew Mayo

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face
See if the contacts stick even when not passing current. I think really
you should use conventional relays, or transistors. Reed relays do tend
to suffer from this problem when switching a load. Remember the lamp
inrush current is much larger than the steady-state current. This is
possibly the reason for the problem. You could possibly alleviate it by
placing a wirewound resistor in parallel with each relay to pass
sufficient current to preheat the lamp filament (it will last longer,
too). Enough current to make the lamp glow very dimly in absolute
darkness is sufficient.

{Quote hidden}

1998\01\21@160423 by ndie Ohtsji [4555]

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Bill,

Did you add any diodes across the relay coil (anode to gnd, cathode to
+12VDC)????   The diode provides path for current to flow once the
12 volts is removed.  Remember the coil is just a big inductor.



+12DC --------+-------+
             |       |
            ---     ---
            /_\     | | Relay coil
             |      ---
             |       |
GND  --------+-------+


Hope this helps!

-Randie
                                   ________
  Randie Ohtsji                   / ____/ /__  ____  ____ ___  _________
  email: rohtsjispamKILLspamglenayre.com    / /___/ / _ \/ __ \/ __ `/ / / / __/ _ \
  Glenayre R & D                / /_\ / /  __/ / / / /_/ / /_/ / / /  __/
  Vancouver, B.C.  CANADA       \____/_/\___/_/ /_/\__,_/\__  /_/  \___/
  Phone: (604) 293-1611 x4555      ________________________/ /
  Fax:   (604) 293-4317           /_________________________/




{Quote hidden}

1998\01\21@162650 by wwl

picon face
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:43:02 -0600, you wrote:

>I am using a 16C84 PIC to create a light bar for the 5 marker lamps (Cabover
>lights) on top of a Chevrolet Truck. The lights scroll left or right when
>that respective blinker is on. They also all blink in sync with the
>Emergency Flashers and are all on solid with when the parking lamps are on
>(with no blinker or flashers). For the record, I have 3 inputs:  left /
>right blinker, and parking lights.
>
>The 5 light outputs from the PIC are input into a 74LS04, Hex Inverter. The
>5 outputs of the Hex Inverter drive the coils of 5 Radio Shack 5VDC Reed
>Relays (part# 275-232).  The relay contacts are passing 13 to 13.8V to the
>lights. The current for each light is about 275ma (.275 Amps).
>
Reed relays are not really designed for load switching. Remember that
the inrush current for a 275mA lamp load may be a lot more due to the
low resistance of the cold filament.
Use Transistors or MOSFETs to switch this kind of load - smaller, more
reliable and probably cheaper as well!
    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / @spam@wwlKILLspamspamnetcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1998\01\21@162655 by peter

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Bryson, William G (Bill) wrote:

> lights. The current for each light is about 275ma (.275 Amps).

Inrush current will be 4/5 times, this is the probable cause

> The problem is the CONTACTS of the reed relays are sticking intermittently.

> relay. There is an 'OMR' or 'DMR' and a 'DEG' name on the relay. Any ideas
> on who and where this company is located.

OMR ? check out Omron they are a MAJOR relay manufacture



KILLspampeterKILLspamspamcousens.her.forthnet.gr

1998\01\21@162659 by Najemy, Daniel

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One source that we use for reed-relays is as follows:

       Standex Electronics
       4538 Camberwell Rd
       Cincinnati, Ohio 45209

       Phone: (513) 871 3777

The application I've used them in is quite different - we use only 1 or
2 (or sometimes even 1/2) turn around the relay to sense very high
currents in backplanes.

There is some hysterisis associated with the relays, as the primary
force that trip them is driven by electric fields. The fields have to be
gone for a sufficient amount of time before the switch will open.

Reed relays are also subject to close during vibration - this may not be
a good thing if it's on top of your truck.

Is this going into production? or are you just having fun? You may want
to use a mosfet or bjt instead of the relay. A nice p-channel mosfet
would do the job.

Daniel Najemy -  Data General Corporation, Numaliine Power Systems

> {Original Message removed}

1998\01\22@050827 by Geoff Wootton

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I had the same problem with just a 150mA inductive load. As Mike Harrison
says, reed relays are not really suitable for load switching. In my case
I used a transistor instead and have had no problems since.

Geoff.

1998\01\22@104314 by Bryson, William G (Bill)

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To all who replied to my request - thanks for the advice...

My problem indeed ended up being in-rush current.  I am in the process of
replacing the reed relays with either transistors or a ULN2803A Darlington.
Thanks to all...

-------------------------------------------------
Work all day & night,
deliver on time & on budget,       Regards,
and justice for all...             Bill Bryson


> {Original Message removed}


'Truck tachometer'
2000\06\01@023816 by Jacky Joulin
picon face
Hello ,
I need realize an application to read truck speed motor ( a tachometer ).
The origin speed information is the "W" output alternator.
Some of the readers as technical information on the "W" output !.
I research also stage input electronique diagram of a truck tachometer for
PIC adaptation .

Thank for your help.

Jacky

RemoveMEWeslayTakeThisOuTspamaol.com

2000\06\01@032723 by Jacky Joulin

picon face
Hello ,
I need realize an application to read truck speed motor ( a tachometer ).
The origin speed information is the "W" output alternator.
Some of the readers as technical information on the "W" output !.
I research also stage input electronique SCHEMA (diagram) of a truck
tachometer for PIC adaptation .

Thank for your help.

Jacky

spamBeGoneWeslayspamBeGonespamaol.com

2000\06\01@094659 by Chris Eddy

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Jacky;

For tachometer measurement, I suggest using the interrupt on port B0 feature.
The software can increment a count every time a pulse arrives, and at the same
time timer 0 or timer 1 is running a crystal time.  At some predetermined time
increment, the counts and time are computed to arrive at RPM's.  RPM's are
really RPS, so you divide counts by time period, scale it to arrive at the
correct units, and you have your RPM's.  I would go one step further and fold
each new reading into a mild low pass filter so that you get a smooth result.

Just a side note, if the alternator is belt driven, you may not get a precise
result.  The belt might have 'slippage' under various RPM's and alternator
load.  Picking up the ignition pulse is more exact.

Chris Eddy

Jacky Joulin wrote:

> Hello ,
> I need realize an application to read truck speed motor ( a tachometer ).

2000\06\01@095505 by Alan B Pearce

face picon face
>Picking up the ignition pulse is more exact.

Most trucks are diesel and don't have one of these. Perhaps this is why he is
looking at the alternator?

My idea would be to have some form of sensor mounted to sense the teeth on the
starter ring gear. This would probably give a more consistent pulse pickup then
alternator frequency.

2000\06\01@110224 by Octavio Nogueira

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> >Picking up the ignition pulse is more exact.
>
> Most trucks are diesel and don't have one of these. Perhaps this is why he
is
> looking at the alternator?
>
> My idea would be to have some form of sensor mounted to sense the teeth on
the
> starter ring gear. This would probably give a more consistent pulse pickup
then
> alternator frequency.

What about picking the fuel injector pulse? I was
thinking in applying this to measure RPM and fuel
consume.
to measure the width of the pulse I will use CCP

Friendly Regards

Octavio Nogueira
===================================================
TakeThisOuTnogueiraEraseMEspamspam_OUTpropic2.com                  ICQ# 19841898
ProPic tools - low cost PIC programmer and emulator
http://www.propic2.com
===================================================

{Original Message removed}

2000\06\01@110847 by Alan B Pearce

face picon face
>What about picking the fuel injector pulse? I was
>thinking in applying this to measure RPM and fuel
>consume.
>to measure the width of the pulse I will use CCP

probably easier to get at than the starter ring gear. Also kills two birds with
one stone, if you are needing fuel consumption data. I do not know how accurate
it would be, put probably accurate enough.

2000\06\01@111714 by Midgley John

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Chris

Interesting. I have a tacho application in mind, and was wondering about
whether to time the interval between adjacent pulses, or to count a
number of pulses over a fixed time. You've gone for the latter - are
there pros and cons for the two options?

Regards

John Midgley

>{Original Message removed}

2000\06\01@115129 by M. Adam Davis

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Pulse width measurement:
 Con:
   More math code (or large lookup table and comparisons)
   Need special hardware (either flip flop, or the portB:0 interrupt)
   May need averaging to slow updates (flipping from 5 to 4 to 5 very
   quickly can be annoying)
 Pro:
   Very fast measurements (update multiple times per second)
 Comments:
   The pulse width should NOT be measured.  What you actually want to measure
   is the period of one complete cycle.  You can either convert a full cycle
   to a single pulse and measure that (flip-flop) or use the PORTB:0
   interrupt to measure the time between the same type of transistion ( time
   between the two low to high or the two high to low)

Count the pulses:
 Con:
   Slow updates (use a moving average to have fast updates)
 Pro:
   Easy to implement
 Comments:
   To get high resolution, you need to wait a long period of time to get
   enough pulses.  To get quick updates you need to measure pulses only a
   short period of time:
   Engine going at 2357 RPM
   Update once/second gives you 3 readings of 39 then one reading of 40.
   After multiplying by 60, you get 2340, but every 4th reading is 2400.
   This is quick update, but low resolution.
   At one reading every 3 seconds, you flip from 2340 to 2360, staying on
   2360 4 out of every 5 readings.

   To cover this, many (if not most) systems use a moving average of sorts.
   You measure the number of pulses in 1/2 second for 6 total seconds.  Store
   each measurement in a seperate register and average them.  Now you have
   six seconds of measurements (giving you 2360 more often than 2350) and you
   can update the display every half second.  The new 1/2 second readings
   overwrite the oldest reading before the new average.  The only drawback to
   this is speed changes are up to 6 seconds behind the actual speed.  For
   small or slow speed changes this is fine, but if the engine suddenly
   siezes at 2357 the display will update as follows in the next 6 seconds:
   2350, 2160, 1960, 1760, 1570, 1370, 1170, 980, 780, 580, 390, 190, 0

-Adam

Midgley John wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> >{Original Message removed}

2000\06\01@115932 by Chris Eddy

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Both methods are possible, as the ignition timing actually comes in no more than
hundreds of hertz, which is comparatively slow if you want to time between
pulses.  The down side to measuring this time is usually the resolution of the
reading at the higher rpm's.. if you need say 2% accuracy at high end, and you run
the RTC at 1MCPS, then you might not get a super accurate value.  But most folks
just want an indicator, and if you grab a handful of pulses, you will bury the
resolution error in a number of readings.  What was 10% error for one pulse is 1%
error for 10 pulses, etcettera.  There are lots of ways to skin this cat.

Chris

Midgley John wrote:

> Chris
>
> Interesting. I have a tacho application in mind, and was wondering about
> whether to time the interval between adjacent pulses, or to count a
> number of pulses over a fixed time. You've gone for the latter - are
> there pros and cons for the two options?

2000\06\01@122155 by Dale Shelor

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>
>What about picking the fuel injector pulse? I was
>thinking in applying this to measure RPM and fuel
>consume.

If it is a Diesel it's probably mechanical injected.  Only the lastest
diesel trucks have electroniclly controlled injection.  It may be possible
to read the mechanical injection pulses with a load cell on one of the
injection lines.  If it is a newer electroniclly controlled diesel then you
can probably find the RPM as serial data from the engine fuel computer.
The new Volvo trucks have a Motorola 68HC11 in the dash just to control the
gauges.  It appears a lot of info (RPM, speed, temp, oil pressure) is sent
as signal serial data stream to the dash. (But they still run hoses all the
way to the dash and have mechanical air pressure gauges!)

For low RPM engines (like diesel trucks) the alternator is not real bad
source for RPM.  Oldsmobile did it for years on their diesel cars. (not
saying that Oldsmobile did anything right with a diesel car! 0-60 in 32
seconds, those were the days...)

Dale

2000\06\01@171957 by steve

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> >Picking up the ignition pulse is more exact.
>
> Most trucks are diesel and don't have one of these. Perhaps this is why he is
> looking at the alternator?
>
> My idea would be to have some form of sensor mounted to sense the teeth on the
> starter ring gear. This would probably give a more consistent pulse pickup then
> alternator frequency.

I have an alternator based tacho. The only real disadvantage is that
you have to calibrate it to your setup using an absolute method of
some sort. The W output is a sine wave output of moderately constant
amplitude and frequency proportional to belt speed.
For normal driving use, it is perfectly adequate. You probably only
read it to the nearest few hundred rpm anyway. If it's on a toothed
belt there isn't any slippage.

Steve.

======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: RemoveMEstevebspamTakeThisOuTtla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

2000\06\02@040707 by Jacky Joulin

picon face
Thank for yours many reply.

I have test this circuit for read the "W" output alternator:



   input  >------ R 2,2K-------------*-------------- R 10K ------    >  to
pin RB6 ( input  pic 16F84 )
                                            I
                                        I
                                        I
                                 Zener  5,1v
                                        I
                                        I
                                        I
                                    0v

Results:
Truck at   600T/mn  pulse = 2,2 ms  F= 227 Hz
Truck at   700T/mn  pulse = 2,0 ms  F= 250 Hz
Truck at 2550T/mn   pulse = 0,7 ms  F= 715 Hz


My problem :
Some parasites on the "W" output alternator degrade the signal end the result
is wrong.

How it's possible to perfect the electronique circuit ?

Thank for your help

Jacky

WeslayEraseMEspam.....aol.com

2000\06\02@101020 by Chris Eddy

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Jacky;

If I were you (but my French is not that good) I would do this:

Use a comparator powered from the 12V side, with a pullup on the output to
generate a 5V signal.  Zeners are such a crappy way to shape input.  Set a
threshold on one of the comparator input pins to half of the signal, and put the
signal from the alternator into the other.  BUT, run thealternator signal through
an RC circuit, say 10K and 100nF, to act as a filter.

That ought to do the trick, but if not, there are ways to AC couple the signal to
compensate for poor average value, as well as more sophisticated ways of
filtering.

I suggest the comparator because the way you have it with a zener is susceptable
to noise, but also, you do not have good control over the threshold of where the
signal is converted.  You should not prototype with a microprocessor, where you
measure the exact voltages of binary threshold.  The manufacturer does not
guarantee a precise threshold, only a range.  With a comparator, you will have a
precise threshold, and since the input is high impedance, you also get the
ability to filter.

Chris Eddy

Jacky Joulin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2000\06\02@163742 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

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On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 12:45:07AM -0400, Chris Eddy wrote:

> load.  Picking up the ignition pulse is more exact.

Not on a Diesel engine. Where did you anticipate getting the ignition
pulse from?

--
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2000\06\02@183510 by Chris Eddy

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There is a brief pulse of RF from the ignition event, even in a diesel engine,
and you amplify, peak detect, and threshold the event.  You get a clean train
of pulses, even cleaner than the same method on a gasoline engine.  I have done
it.  I know, a ton of you are going to scream that there is no electrical event
on a diesel piston fire.  The circuit designed for a gasoline engine RF pickup
worked very well on a diesel, to our amazement.  Don't ask me where the RF
comes from on diesel.  We all know where it comes from on gasoline.

So there.  That is three people that beat me over my dumbness.  That ought to
keep the hecklers at bay.

Tongue in cheek
Chris Eddy

Clyde Smith-Stubbs wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 12:45:07AM -0400, Chris Eddy wrote:
>
> > load.  Picking up the ignition pulse is more exact.
>
> Not on a Diesel engine. Where did you anticipate getting the ignition
> pulse from?

2000\06\03@150836 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Hi,

I will ask about the RF pulse in the Diesel engine ;-) Where did you put the
pickup coil and was it inductive or capacitive coupling ?

thanks,

       Peter

PS: By where I mean, just poked it in the engine compartment, wound a coil
on an injection pipe <grin> or in some other place like that.

2000\06\04@012250 by Chris Eddy

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face
Weelll, I suppose it doesn't matter.  The pickup was a metal contact with any
point on the vehicle.  The tailpipe was our own specific pickup point.  The car
is isolated by the tires, and the RF is like a big electrostatic flash on the
body of the vehicle.  When I was working on this stuff, I saw some neat stuff.
You can see the start of the dwell time, when the coil just begins ot charge
with current.  You can see a lot of nonsense RF on a Mercedes.  You have a hard
time picking up anything on some Hondas.  I can't say more on just how the
pickup/amp worked.

The existing European solution uses a figure eight antenna which lays on the
hood.  It works very poorly, and is the reason that folks are looking hard for
alternatives.

In secrecy,
Chris Eddy

"Peter L. Peres" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2000\06\05@020552 by Jacky Joulin

flavicon
face
Hello,


I research always the schema to interface and convert the "W" output alternator ----> TTL signal.

This is very important for me.

Thanks

jacky

2000\06\05@115919 by Jacky Joulin

flavicon
face
Hello,


I research always the schema to interface and convert the "W" output alternator ----> TTL signal.

This is very important for me.

Thanks

jacky


'[OT]: High school trucks in Australia'
2003\05\17@225924 by Mike Hord
picon face
>Had the only truck in high school with a digital dash...sorta)
>
>Why on earth would a high school kid want a truck? I am Australian, perhaps
>this is yet another cultural difference. :-)


DEFINITELY a cultural difference.  I've always wondered about that:  I went
to high school in the southern US, where fully 1/3 of the cars in the
student lot were trucks, and most of those had rifle racks in the back
window and tires 32 inches in diameter, and I wondered if trucks were an
indigenous oddity to the US.

Mike H.

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2003\05\18@010805 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
> Why on earth would a high school kid want a truck? I am Australian, perhaps
> this is yet another cultural difference. :-)

The "high school vehicle of choice" seems to be HIGHLY culture, class, and
locality dependent.  It depends on whether you're going to be "evaluated" on
what your vehicle can do (rich kids and their sports cars), what you can do
WITH your vehicle (trucks), or what you can do TO your vehicle (assorted
home-modified things, but especially low-rider types.)  This seems to
continue well on past high school, of course, or there would only be one
kind of car...

:-)
BillW

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2003\05\18@051129 by Jake Anderson

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face
Keep in mind the american deffinition of "truck" their "truck" is our
(Australian) four wheel drive or large ute. By the same token some of them
you do need a packed lunch if you want to walk around them.
{Original Message removed}


'[OT] Don't you BUY no ugly truck - 2005 Studebaker'
2004\12\08@005421 by Russell McMahon
face
flavicon
face
It's hard to know whether it will make Hummer owners cower or laugh.

       http://www.avantimotors.com/studespecific.htm

"Functional" design carried to its ludicrous conclusion.
It's interesting that the smaller diesel makes more power and torque, and at
lower revs (torque at MUCH lower revs).

____________________________________________

2004\12\08@050409 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <057301c4dcea$60b4dbe0$d201a8c0@y2k>
         Russell McMahon <RemoveMEapptechTakeThisOuTspamspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:

> "Functional" design carried to its ludicrous conclusion.
> It's interesting that the smaller diesel makes more power and torque, and at
> lower revs (torque at MUCH lower revs).

1) It's damn ugly
2) It's far too big (IMO). My money's on people buying these things just to
  do the daily school run. Yuck. (yes, there are a lot of people round here
  that own 4x4s (or what I suppose Americans would call SUVs), nearly all of
  them are used by parents to take their kids to school, even though the
  local school is within walking distance).
  I've no objections to people owning 4x4s, as long as no other vehicle is
  suitable - I realise agricultural sites would have a legitimate use for
  a 4x4, but someone who just wants to take the kids to school... Ngh...
3) I guess that thing will probably do, what, 10mpg tops? Ugh. What a
  waste...
 
I expect to be heavily flamed so... asbestos suit ON...
 
Later.
--
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... A committee has 6 or more legs and no brain.
____________________________________________

2004\12\08@051333 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesKILLspamspamMIT.EDU [piclist-bouncesSTOPspamspamspam_OUTMIT.EDU]
>On Behalf Of Russell McMahon
>Sent: 08 December 2004 05:40
>To: PIC List
>Subject: [OT] Don't you BUY no ugly truck - 2005 Studebaker XUV
>
>
>It's hard to know whether it will make Hummer owners cower or laugh.
>
>        http://www.avantimotors.com/studespecific.htm
>
>"Functional" design carried to its ludicrous conclusion.
>It's interesting that the smaller diesel makes more power and
>torque, and at
>lower revs (torque at MUCH lower revs).

Well, it's only 11% smaller displacment and it's turbo charged.  Stick a
turbo on the 6.8litre petrol engine and it also would be producing some
impressive torque figures!

It is *stupendously* ugly though.  Having said that, the convertables
aren't really any better.

Regards

Mike

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____________________________________________

2004\12\08@051343 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


{Quote hidden}

No flames from this direction, I totaly agree.

Mike

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____________________________________________

2004\12\08@083657 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
> I expect to be heavily flamed so... asbestos suit ON...
>

Yes, Phil, I would argue that I REALLY NEED such a truck to get to work in the morning.  Why, just the other day, I was consumed by road rage, and rammed my truck into a hapless passerby who happened to pull out in front of me and cut me off.  So much for HIS car!  I had nary a scratch. It is my god given right to have a vehicle that can plow anything off the road in front of it, be it rain, sleet, snow, or schoolbus.  And if it only gets 3 gallons to the mile, so what? That just shows how rich I am, proving I am important, and proving Americans are the most important people anywhere. So what if everybody thinks we SUV drivers are a**holes? When I am driving over the top of some 50MPG tin lizzie, how much mileage do they get then?  Huh?  Take THAT you tinny little beetley bugs!

<sarcasm off>



-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Who rode his bike to work today, with a PIC powered high intensity LED light built into the helmet, thinking about servo driven steering.  



> {Original Message removed}

2004\12\08@094930 by Peter Moreton

flavicon
face
There is a real anti-4x4 thing going on in the UK now, with the 'Campaign
against urban 4x4s' stopping people at road junctions and issuing them with
fake parking tickets asking them to re-consider there use of such vehicles.

In the main, I agree that the innapropriate use of 4x4's should be
discouraged, HOWEVER, in my household we have a sensible economic car, (for
me) and an Isuzu 4x4 (for my wife). The Isuzu goes off road every day, to
get to my wife's horses & goats, which are kept in a field. The Isuzu is
consequently plastered with mud, and full of straw and so far I haven't been
asked by any of the tree-huggers if 'I really need that four by four' (It's
rather obvious that we do!)

Finally, our 4x4 is a diesel and does 30mpg, which is a lot more than say, a
BMW 740 / Jag XKR, Big Merc etc etc. It would make more sense if the
aformentioned huggers would be campaign against all types of vehicle that
guzzle hydrocarbons excessively, and not focus on whether the car has 2 or 4
driven wheels.

Just my (humble) opinion!

Peter Moreton



{Original Message removed}

2004\12\08@100503 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Yes, Phil, I would argue that I REALLY NEED such a truck to get to
> work in the morning.  Why, just the other day, I was consumed by
> road rage, and rammed my truck into a hapless passerby who
> happened to pull out in front of me and cut me off.  So much for HIS
> car!  I had nary a scratch. It is my god given right to have a vehicle
> that can plow anything off the road in front of it, be it rain, sleet, snow,
>or schoolbus.  And if it only gets 3 gallons to the mile, so what? That
> just shows how rich I am, proving I am important, and proving
> Americans are the most important people anywhere. So what if
> everybody thinks we SUV drivers are a**holes? When I am driving
> over the top of some 50MPG tin lizzie, how much mileage do they
> get then?  Huh?  Take THAT you tinny little beetley bugs!

You're making a joke, Lawrence, but you aren't too far off from the truth.

I saw a man in an SUV literally run a family in a sedan off the road the
other day.  Literally off the road, until the two right hand wheels were on
the turf past the shoulder.  Times like that, I'm glad I have the Highway
Patrol phone number in my cell phone.  ;-)

I think these large SUVs (and big pickup trucks, too) tend to have
extend that feeling of invincibility that teenagers have.  And that sucks
for those of us driving smaller cars.

Mike H., who walks to work every day (to offset his tiny little Subaru
Forester which makes him feel guilty [@28 mpg]).
____________________________________________

2004\12\08@102552 by Dal Wheeler

flavicon
face
Don't worry, I'll drive a little extra to make up for your lack of petroleum
usage.  :)



-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Hord
who walks to work every day (to offset his tiny little Subaru
Forester which makes him feel guilty [@28 mpg]).


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.804 / Virus Database: 546 - Release Date: 11/30/2004


____________________________________________

2004\12\08@175153 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
Got a real case of Road Rage right up close and personal yesterday.  A guy was not pleased by some nuance of my vehicular driving skill, and followed me for several blocks flashing his lights.  I stopped at a grocery store, and he got out and proceeded to insult my ancestry, parentage, questioned why my vehicle was not in a scrapyard, and so on, mostly incoherently. This display was all done in front of his kids who were sitting in the car at the time.  I was wondering if he was going to clobber me.  I wisely ignored him, as I was on a Fathead-Free Diet that day.  I am sure his kids now have an excellent example of mature, rational adult behaviour to clock their own actions against.  

Next time I feel like flipping off somebody on the road, I'll try to remember this grown-up schoolyard bully and how ridiculous and pointless he was.


-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.

> You're making a joke, Lawrence, but you aren't too far off from the truth.
>
> I saw a man in an SUV literally run a family in a sedan off the road the
> other day.  Literally off the road, until the two right hand wheels were
> on
> the turf past the shoulder.  Times like that, I'm glad I have the Highway
> Patrol phone number in my cell phone.  ;-)
>

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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____________________________________________

2004\12\08@175827 by Dal Wheeler

flavicon
face
Heh, what'd you do to insight this?  :)

-----Original Message-----
>From Lawrence Lile
Got a real case of Road Rage right up close and personal yesterday.  A guy
was not pleased by some nuance of my vehicular driving skill, and followed
me for several blocks flashing his lights.  I stopped at a grocery store,
and he got out and proceeded to insult my ancestry, parentage, questioned
why my vehicle was not in a scrapyard, and so on, mostly incoherently. This
display was all done in front of his kids who were sitting in the car at the
time.  I was wondering if he was going to clobber me.  I wisely ignored him,
as I was on a Fathead-Free Diet that day.  I am sure his kids now have an
excellent example of mature, rational adult behaviour to clock their own
actions against.  

Next time I feel like flipping off somebody on the road, I'll try to
remember this grown-up schoolyard bully and how ridiculous and pointless he
was.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.804 / Virus Database: 546 - Release Date: 11/30/2004


____________________________________________

2004\12\08@185328 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
> Heh, what'd you do to insight this?  :)
>

I think he didn't like my bumper stickers.

-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.

> {Original Message removed}

2004\12\08@231216 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> Heh, what'd you do to insight this?  :)

> I think he didn't like my bumper stickers.

Just think of the problems I'd have over there :-)


           RM


____________________________________________

2004\12\08@233053 by redtock8

flavicon
face
Ok, we want to know what they say,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
DXTron Technology Inc
Atlanta, Ga
PCB Assembly
TH and SMT
PIC Chip Programming
-----------------------------------------------------------------
spamBeGoneredrock8spamKILLspamdxtron.com
http://www.dxtron.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
{Original Message removed}

2004\12\08@233638 by Denny Esterline

picon face
Hey, that's what you get for sporting a "My AVR can kick your PIC's butt"
bumper sticker. :o)

-Denny



> > Heh, what'd you do to insight this?  :)
> >
>
> I think he didn't like my bumper stickers.
>
> -- Lawrence Lile, P.E.


____________________________________________

2004\12\09@030943 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Hey, that's what you get for sporting a "My AVR can kick your
> PIC's butt" bumper sticker. :o)

I recall a Dutch cartoon about two guys in very sporty cars in a traffic
jam. "can your car go XXXX  too?" with big empathis on *can*. so:

"My AVR could kick your PIC's butt, too bad it's not available any more"

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



____________________________________________

2004\12\09@081608 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
> Ok, we want to know what they say,
>

Sorry, Politics is taboo on the PIClist.  If I told you, I'd have to be kicked out. Some of you guys would WANT me kicked out.  

-- Lawrence Lile, P.E.


> {Original Message removed}

2004\12\09@101943 by Bradley Ferguson

picon face
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 07:11:03 -0600, Lawrence Lile <.....llilespam_OUTspamprojsolco.com> wrote:
> > Ok, we want to know what they say,
> >
>
> Sorry, Politics is taboo on the PIClist.  If I told you, I'd have to be kicked out. Some of you guys would WANT me kicked out.

Perhaps you could get away with posting it ROT13'd?

Bradley
____________________________________________

2004\12\09@111307 by William Couture

face picon face
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:19:42 -0600, Bradley Ferguson <TakeThisOuTbradleyee.....spamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 07:11:03 -0600, Lawrence Lile <TakeThisOuTllileKILLspamspamspamprojsolco.com> wrote:
>>> Ok, we want to know what they say,
>>>
>>
>> Sorry, Politics is taboo on the PIClist.  If I told you, I'd have
to be kicked out. Some of
>>you guys would WANT me kicked out.
>
> Perhaps you could get away with posting it ROT13'd?

Too insecure.  Try double ROT13 if you want real security.

Bill

p.s.  Yes, it's a joke!
____________________________________________

2004\12\23@011832 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 08:31 AM 12/8/2004, Lawrence Lile wrote:

> > I expect to be heavily flamed so... asbestos suit ON...
> >
>
>Yes, Phil, I would argue that I REALLY NEED such a truck to get to work in
>the morning.  Why, just the other day, I was consumed by road rage, and
>rammed my truck into a hapless passerby who happened to pull out in front
>of me and cut me off.  So much for HIS car!  I had nary a scratch. It is
>my god given right to have a vehicle that can plow anything off the road
>in front of it, be it rain, sleet, snow, or schoolbus.  And if it only
>gets 3 gallons to the mile, so what? That just shows how rich I am,
>proving I am important, and proving Americans are the most important
>people anywhere. So what if everybody thinks we SUV drivers are a**holes?
>When I am driving over the top of some 50MPG tin lizzie, how much mileage
>do they get then?  Huh?  Take THAT you tinny little beetley bugs!
>
><sarcasm off>


Looks like tomorrow, I'll be using my large dangerous SUV with cell phone,
ham radio, and strobes, to get through the 12-18" of snow, and once again
deliver medications to shut-ins, and patients to and from dialysis sessions.

It's not "tornado season" so I won't be sitting out in muggy weather for
hours at a time, hoping to give a few more minutes warning to the community.

< :) >

That studebaker though... YECCCCHHHHH..


BTW: I've solved my workspace organization problem. Just closed on two houses.
The one I'm living in, plus a small 2Br next door, which is to be my office.
Nice, separately metered and therefore tax deductible utilities!

____________________________________________

2004\12\23@030338 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Looks like tomorrow, I'll be using my large dangerous SUV with cell phone,
> ham radio, and strobes, to get through the 12-18" of snow, and once again
> deliver medications to shut-ins, and patients to and from dialysis
> sessions.

Is this your day job or after hours recreation? :-)

   RM

____________________________________________

2004\12\23@084450 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 02:33 AM 12/23/2004, Russell McMahon wrote:

>>Looks like tomorrow, I'll be using my large dangerous SUV with cell
>>phone, ham radio, and strobes, to get through the 12-18" of snow, and
>>once again deliver medications to shut-ins, and patients to and from
>>dialysis sessions.
>
>Is this your day job or after hours recreation? :-)

Volunteer thing.

2004\12\23@095106 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
I've seen an awful lot of messages go by on this thread...

I am not a fan of SUVs (couldn't imaging owning one), but I really don't get
why everybody thinks this one is particularly ugly.

Personally I kind of like it.

Well, it takes all kinds, including weird ones like me.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


2004\12\23@162813 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
See? Living where it snows builds character...

...which is why I live in California...

...I'm already enough of a character.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}


'[EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\23@151152 by Andrew Kieran
picon face

http://www.maxim-ic.com/company/hijackedparts/

This release on Maxim's web site confirms details of a truck
hijacking in which $2.2 million worth of marked, but untested,
Maxim parts were stolen.  You might want to warn your Buyers to
source their stuff only through authorized channels.  The
article reports that the stollen chips could have a failure rate
of 30%  !!

Andrew




________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag

2005\05\23@153936 by Bob Blick

face picon face
> This release on Maxim's web site confirms details of a truck
> hijacking in which $2.2 million worth of marked, but untested,
> Maxim parts were stolen.

500 lots of hot Maxim parts on eBay already:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7517614991



2005\05\23@155034 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Well, If I were in maxim's PR department, I would also say that the stolen
items were defective. Whether they were or not. But, of course, we should
support honesty by ensuring we purchase through authorized channels.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\05\23@160232 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 02:39 PM 5/23/2005, Bob Blick wrote:
> > This release on Maxim's web site confirms details of a truck
> > hijacking in which $2.2 million worth of marked, but untested,
> > Maxim parts were stolen.
>
>500 lots of hot Maxim parts on eBay already:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7517614991

Are you implying that these are "hot" as in stolen?

2005\05\23@165240 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 03:11 PM 5/23/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>http://www.maxim-ic.com/company/hijackedparts/
>
>This release on Maxim's web site confirms details of a truck
>hijacking in which $2.2 million worth of marked, but untested,
>Maxim parts were stolen.

By a customer fed up with long lead times? ;-)

They've apparently been exported from Malaysia and are for sale elsewhere
in Asia.

http://in.biz.yahoo.com/050518/138/5yl3v.html

You might want to warn your Buyers to
source their stuff only through authorized channels.  The
article reports that the stollen chips could have a failure rate
of 30%  !!

"Could". Hmmm..

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
.....speffspamRemoveMEinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff



2005\05\23@190732 by Mark Jordan

flavicon
face
On 23 May 2005 at 15:11, Andrew Kieran wrote:

>
> http://www.maxim-ic.com/company/hijackedparts/
>
> This release on Maxim's web site confirms details of a truck
> hijacking in which $2.2 million worth of marked, but untested,
> Maxim parts were stolen.  

       Yeah, sure. What a truck of 'marked but untested' parts
was doing outside the factory?


2005\05\23@193441 by wayne

flavicon
face
Maybe they make and test in two different locations??

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesspamspamBeGonemit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bounces@spam@spamspam_OUTmit.edu] On Behalf Of
Mark Jordan
Sent: 24 May 2005 00:07
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE]:Maxim truck hijacked

On 23 May 2005 at 15:11, Andrew Kieran wrote:

>
> http://www.maxim-ic.com/company/hijackedparts/
>
> This release on Maxim's web site confirms details of a truck
> hijacking in which $2.2 million worth of marked, but untested,
> Maxim parts were stolen.  

       Yeah, sure. What a truck of 'marked but untested' parts
was doing outside the factory?


2005\05\23@193747 by Bob Blick

face picon face
> At 02:39 PM 5/23/2005, Bob Blick wrote:
>>500 lots of hot Maxim parts on eBay already:
>>
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7517614991
>
> Are you implying that these are "hot" as in stolen?

It was the ad itself that listed them as "hot"!

:) Bob



2005\05\24@013556 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Well, If I were in maxim's PR department, I would also say that the
> stolen
> items were defective.

Which is almost certainly what's happening here.


       RM

2005\05\24@034101 by Hulatt, Jon

picon face
If maxim have a failure rate of 30% of chips that are fully manufactured
then i'd say they need to get a better foundry.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\05\24@103659 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Mon, 23 May 2005 20:07:16 -0300, Mark Jordan wrote:

> On 23 May 2005 at 15:11, Andrew Kieran wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.maxim-ic.com/company/hijackedparts/
> >
> > This release on Maxim's web site confirms details of a truck
> > hijacking in which $2.2 million worth of marked, but untested,
> > Maxim parts were stolen.  
>
>        Yeah, sure. What a truck of 'marked but untested' parts
> was doing outside the factory?

Indeed - I always understood that marking happened after (or as part of) testing, because that's when
speed-ratings are determined and then marked.  

Maybe Maxim only has pass/fail tests rather than any sort of classification, but I'm still suspicious that
this is a damage-limitation exercise.  Apart form anything else, the only errors that should remain would have
been those introduced by the connection and encapsulation - the functioning of the chip would have been
established at the wafer stage, because packaging failed chips is an expensive cost for nothing.  So the
failure rate should be vastly lower than 30%, or they're doing very bad business!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\05\24@104947 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: TakeThisOuTpiclist-bouncesspamspammit.edu [piclist-bouncesEraseMEspammit.edu]
>Sent: 24 May 2005 15:37
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [EE]:Maxim truck hijacked
>
>
 So the
>failure rate should be vastly lower than 30%, or they're doing
>very bad business!

Might explain the availability problems that their customers are
suffering!

Mike

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not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any
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2005\05\24@113031 by Hulatt, Jon

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu On Behalf Of Michael Rigby-Jones
> Sent: 24 May 2005 15:49
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: RE: [EE]:Maxim truck hijacked
>
> Might explain the availability problems that their customers
> are suffering!
>
> Mike
>

If anyone needs some Maxim parts, i've got a truckload for sale... ;o)








(that's a joke by the way. no need to call the feds)

2005\05\24@145316 by Peter

picon face


On Tue, 24 May 2005, Hulatt, Jon wrote:

> If maxim have a failure rate of 30% of chips that are fully manufactured
> then i'd say they need to get a better foundry.

Or a better pr person who would have said 35.8% for 1.5% more
credibility.

Peter

2005\05\24@151651 by David Minkler

flavicon
face
I'm sure it's a real problem for them.  If the number is too low,
there's little hazard to the 'dark gray market' buyer.  If it's too
high, their insurance company won't pay off as well.  If it has too many
decimal places in it, they'll get laughed out of all the circles of
serious statisticians (and anybody else who is paying attention).  
Frankly, I think they called it too high for believability.

Dave

Peter wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\05\24@155118 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 12:18 PM 5/24/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm sure it's a real problem for them.  If the number is too low, there's
>little hazard to the 'dark gray market' buyer.  If it's too high, their
>insurance company won't pay off as well.  If it has too many decimal
>places in it, they'll get laughed out of all the circles of serious
>statisticians (and anybody else who is paying attention).
>
>
>Dave

They said "The failure rate could be as high as 30%.". It "could" also be
as low as zero, perhaps.

TI seems eager to 'help': http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/logic/xref_ti-maxim1.pdf

>Frankly, I think they called it too high for believability.

Yes

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
@spam@speffRemoveMEspamEraseMEinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2005\05\24@161552 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
They did say "up to" 30%.

It is within the realm of reason to expect that perhaps out of the truck
load of parts that there are a couple of lots that are really bad. In other
words, the truck could have 99.99% good parts, but perhaps the lot of
MAXnnnn chips just had a _very_ bad day.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


{Original Message removed}

2005\05\24@162928 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> If maxim have a failure rate of 30% of chips that are fully
> manufactured
> then i'd say they need to get a better foundry.

If I am not mistaken a chip is normally tested *before* it is put in a
housing, so 30% failure of *housed* chips would be rediculous.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\05\24@172025 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > If maxim have a failure rate of 30% of chips that are fully
> > manufactured
> > then i'd say they need to get a better foundry.
>
> If I am not mistaken a chip is normally tested *before* it is put in a
> housing, so 30% failure of *housed* chips would be rediculous.

Perhaps the 30% figure is related to handling?  I.e., clumsy crooks
dragging chips out the back of a truck can reasonably be expected
to trash ~30% of them?

I'd believe that, if they weren't yet packaged in such a manner as to
be shipped to distributors.  Maybe.

Or maybe it's a case of CYA.

Mike H.

2005\05\24@172933 by Denny Esterline

picon face
> Perhaps the 30% figure is related to handling?  I.e., clumsy crooks
> dragging chips out the back of a truck can reasonably be expected
> to trash ~30% of them?
>

Or perhaps they hijacked the truck hauling the rejects to the landfill? :-)

-Denny

2005\05\24@184944 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Denny Esterline wrote:
> Or perhaps they hijacked the truck hauling the rejects to the
> landfill? :-)

Hmm.  Sell your rejects to the insurance company.  Better than actually
dumping them in the landfill.  Works OK as long as Guido and Vinny can keep
their mouth shut and nobody asks too many questions about how a couple of
losers both ended up with shiny new cars.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\05\24@200856 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:20:24 -0500, Mike Hord wrote:

>...<
> Perhaps the 30% figure is related to handling?  I.e.,
clumsy crooks
> dragging chips out the back of a truck can reasonably
be expected
> to trash ~30% of them?
>
> I'd believe that, if they weren't yet packaged in such
a manner as to
> be shipped to distributors.  Maybe.
>
> Or maybe it's a case of CYA.

More likely FUD!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\05\25@125259 by Peter

picon face

On Tue, 24 May 2005, David Minkler wrote:

> I'm sure it's a real problem for them.  If the number is too low, there's
> little hazard to the 'dark gray market' buyer.  If it's too high, their
> insurance company won't pay off as well.  If it has too many decimal places
> in it, they'll get laughed out of all the circles of serious statisticians
> (and anybody else who is paying attention).  Frankly, I think they called it
> too high for believability.

Maybe they know that the thieves do not work to ISO9000 standards and do
not employ static control measures while handling the stuff ;-) Anyway
30% is too round a number to announce for anything hi-tech. Surely they
can count to more decimals than that.

Peter

>> On Tue, 24 May 2005, Hulatt, Jon wrote:
>>
>>> If maxim have a failure rate of 30% of chips that are fully manufactured
>>> then i'd say they need to get a better foundry.
>>
>> Or a better pr person who would have said 35.8% for 1.5% more credibility.
>>
>> Peter

2005\05\25@140213 by SM Ling

picon face
Either they(Maxim) are under-estimating the intelligent level of the thief
or insulting the recepients of their news.

The theives or rather the robbers were desperate but certainly  not stupid.
Their favorites are Intel CPUs, somehow they managed to target the
passanger-cars driven by the FAEs or the Sale-engineers.  This tell how much
they know and how much they have researched.

Ling SM

> I'm sure it's a real problem for them.  If the number is too low, there's
> little hazard to the 'dark gray market' buyer.  If it's too high, their
> insurance company won't pay off as well.  If it has too many decimal
places
> in it, they'll get laughed out of all the circles of serious statisticians
> (and anybody else who is paying attention).  Frankly, I think they called
it
> too high for believability.

2005\05\25@145032 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <EraseME5.1.1.5.2.20050524154328.04d56450spam@spam@mail.interlog.com>>          Spehro Pefhany <@spam@speffspam_OUTspam.....interlog.com> wrote:

> TI seems eager to 'help': http://focus.ti.com/pdfs/logic/xref_ti-maxim1.pdf

"Here ya go. Just in case you don't want to risk ordering junk, here's our
cross-reference list..."

ROFL!

Later.
--
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
spamBeGonephilpemEraseMEspamphilpem.me.uk              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... I will not steal this tagline, it eez scratched.

2005\05\25@145533 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <002901c560b2$df41e510$0300a8c0@main>
         olin_piclistspamBeGonespamembedinc.com (Olin Lathrop) wrote:

> Works OK as long as Guido and Vinny can keep
> their mouth shut and nobody asks too many questions about how a couple of
> losers both ended up with shiny new cars.

I can see it now..

Scene: dark alley alongside factory building

"Hey, boy. You's one o' them electronics engineering guys"
"Um, yeah...."
"Ya wanna buy some MAX232s? 30c on the dollar.."
"Not really"
"C'mon.. Ya know's ya wants to..."

:)

Later.
--
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
RemoveMEphilpem@spam@spamspamBeGonephilpem.me.uk              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.

2005\05\26@002112 by Jonathan Hallameyer

picon face
On 5/23/05, Bob Blick <.....bblick@spam@spamEraseMEsonic.net> wrote:
> > At 02:39 PM 5/23/2005, Bob Blick wrote:
> >>500 lots of hot Maxim parts on eBay already:
> >>
> >>cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7517614991
> >
> > Are you implying that these are "hot" as in stolen?
>
> It was the ad itself that listed them as "hot"!
>
> :) Bob
But they are in the tape... Would Maxim make the chips, package them
ship them for testing, open them up, test them and then re package
them? I would think that they would have some sort of container that
they can reuse rather than tape and reel.

--
Jonathan Hallameyer

2005\05\26@015729 by Chetan Bhargava

picon face
I completely agree as most manufacturers test the part and then mark
them.  That's how they separate the low power part from the regular
part as the dies are the same.

I know that Atmel does that as I have taken a tour of their facility
where they test and mark the parts.

Regards,

--
Chetan Bhargava
Web: http://www.bhargavaz.net
Blog: http://microz.blogspot.com


On 5/23/05, Mark Jordan <.....markRemoveMEspamcpovo.net> wrote:
>
>        Yeah, sure. What a truck of 'marked but untested' parts
> was doing outside the factory?

2005\05\26@022441 by Jinx

face picon face
> I know that Atmel does that as I have taken a tour of their facility
> where they test and mark the parts.

Just curious - harking back to the question of trying over-clocking
an -04 PIC (even though it might actually be quite happy running
at > 4MHz as a -20 reject)

How intensive is batch testing ? Say you have a bunch of micros
made from several wafers. Presumably, ideally, each wafer and
subsequent layers would be made of homogeneous material. So

(1) if you're working with known, controlled materials why does a
batch or part fail to meet spec in the first place

(2) if one piece from a batch or base wafer fails, can you assume
that the rest of that batch/wafer also will fail. Surely it can't be
necessary to test every piece in a high-volume product

(3) therefore is a selected sample rigorously tested under all conditions
and that assumption made, for whatever reason, for the rest of them

2005\05\26@023133 by emmanueld_sorreta

flavicon
face
part 1 2452 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The thieves have been caught but the chips are still at large.

Regards.

E. D. Sorreta
(See attached file: Four held over theft of computer chips.txt)


                                                                                                         
                     Chetan Bhargava                                                                      
                     <cbhargava@gmail.        To:       "Microcontroller discussion list - Public."      
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                     piclist-bounces@m        Subject:  Re: [EE]:Maxim truck hijacked                    
                     it.edu                                                                              
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         
                     26/05/2005 13:57                                                                    
                     Please respond to                                                                    
                     "Microcontroller                                                                    
                     discussion list -                                                                    
                     Public."                                                                            
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         




I completely agree as most manufacturers test the part and then mark
them.  That's how they separate the low power part from the regular
part as the dies are the same.

I know that Atmel does that as I have taken a tour of their facility
where they test and mark the parts.

Regards,

--
Chetan Bhargava
Web: http://www.bhargavaz.net
Blog: http://microz.blogspot.com


On 5/23/05, Mark Jordan <markEraseMEspam@spam@cpovo.net> wrote:
>
>        Yeah, sure. What a truck of 'marked but untested' parts
> was doing outside the factory?

2005\05\26@061210 by vasile surducan

picon face
On 5/24/05, Spehro Pefhany <RemoveMEspeffspamspamBeGoneinterlog.com> wrote:
> At 12:18 PM 5/24/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> >I'm sure it's a real problem for them.  If the number is too low, there's
> >little hazard to the 'dark gray market' buyer.  If it's too high, their
> >insurance company won't pay off as well.  If it has too many decimal
> >places in it, they'll get laughed out of all the circles of serious
> >statisticians (and anybody else who is paying attention).
> >
> >
> >Dave
>
> They said "The failure rate could be as high as 30%.". It "could" also be
> as low as zero, perhaps.

 I'm affraid I see too optimistic thoughts. I can tell you for sure
for my own experience that at least  MAX477 and MAX1186 have some
interesting failure rate...
So, a full truck with small parts will have more. As low as zero is impossible.

Vasile

2005\05\26@073133 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Jinx wrote :

> How intensive is batch testing ? Say you have a bunch of micros
> made from several wafers. Presumably, ideally, each wafer and
> subsequent layers would be made of homogeneous material. So
>
> (1) if you're working with known, controlled materials why does a
> batch or part fail to meet spec in the first place
>
> (2) if one piece from a batch or base wafer fails, can you assume
> that the rest of that batch/wafer also will fail. Surely it can't be
> necessary to test every piece in a high-volume product
>
> (3) therefore is a selected sample rigorously tested under
> all conditions
> and that assumption made, for whatever reason, for the rest of them

I can't see why this would be any different from producing just
about anything. Statistical inspection was developed during
WW-II when the US military found out that they didn't had the
resources (mostly time) to test and inspect *every* bomb made.

The methods developed are today known as "MIL-STD-105D".
Google for that, and the first hit is :
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/pmc/section2/pmc231.htm

In short, what you do is to first define an AQL for your product.
AQL = "Acceptable Quality Level", or the acceptable %-ige of
defective products leaving the production. Say an AQL = 0.01
says that one defective out of 10.000 is "OK".

Then, using your AQL, you look up in the MIL-STD 105D tables
(today computerized, but first on paper) to get your sampling
lot size and the number of accepted rejects in the lot.

Let's say that you have 100.000 parts batch. The tables could then
tell you to sample 100 parts, and that 1 error is OK, but if you
get 2 in the sample lot, the whole 100.00 batch is rejected.

One thing that is *very* important is that you use a as
random sampling from the whole lot as possible. Special
random number tables was printed that you used to both
decide from which box (or whatever) you should pick your
samples, and also at what time of day you should make
the sample.

I can't see any reason why you can't use statistical sampling
inspection on chips also.

Jan-Erik.



2005\05\26@081355 by Dave Lag

picon face
I understood that the edges of the wafer had worse yield that the centre?
D

Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2005\05\26@083454 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> I can't see why this would be any different from producing just
> about anything. Statistical inspection was developed during
> WW-II when the US military found out that they didn't had the
> resources (mostly time) to test and inspect *every* bomb made.

Besides, how does one do complete functional testing of things like bombs
and fuses?  BOOOM - 397 good 7 bad.  BOOOM - 398 good 7 bad.  Pffft - 398
good 8 bad....


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\05\26@090202 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Besides, how does one do complete functional testing of
> things like bombs
> and fuses?  BOOOM - 397 good 7 bad.  BOOOM - 398 good 7 bad.  
> Pffft - 398
> good 8 bad....

Now if only all weapons manufacturers could be forced to use that
approach - and testing must of course be done on premises!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\05\26@103821 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu [piclist-bouncesspam_OUTspam@spam@mit.edu]
>Sent: 26 May 2005 13:36
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [EE]:Maxim truck hijacked
>
>
>Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>> I can't see why this would be any different from producing
>just about
>> anything. Statistical inspection was developed during WW-II when the
>> US military found out that they didn't had the resources
>(mostly time)
>> to test and inspect *every* bomb made.
>
>Besides, how does one do complete functional testing of things
>like bombs and fuses?  BOOOM - 397 good 7 bad.  BOOOM - 398
>good 7 bad.  Pffft - 398 good 8 bad....

Coffee meets keyboard....

Olin, you've come out with some gems recently ;)

Regards

Mike

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2005\05\26@104408 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 07:35 AM 5/26/2005, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>I can't see why this would be any different from producing just
>>about anything. Statistical inspection was developed during
>>WW-II when the US military found out that they didn't had the
>>resources (mostly time) to test and inspect *every* bomb made.
>
>Besides, how does one do complete functional testing of things like bombs
>and fuses?  BOOOM - 397 good 7 bad.  BOOOM - 398 good 7 bad.  Pffft - 398
>good 8 bad....

Unfortunately, sometimes it's worse than that.
Look up the history of the magnetic exploder in WWII US torpedoes.
We might as well have sent them out with empty torpedoes for a while,
till the sub captains started pulling the appropriate plugs, and
finally it got fixed.

2005\05\27@015817 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

picon face
Hi Bob.

1. Is it wrong understanding that most expensive part of
the small to medium sized chip is the package itself not
the silicon dice ?

2. If the package is the most expensive part in the total cost
of the chip who whould be stupid enough to pack untested silicon,
labeling it and then ship to other facility for "final testing" ?

Maxim PR should hire people with brains not with tongues and
attitude to properly handle such situations. No ifs and buts
and same applies to security in Malasia.


WBR Dmitry.

PS.
Kind of curious how Malasian police have determined that
hijacked truck indeed left Malasia already ? It might very
well be sitting on next door factory for re-labeling to
"certified" Maxim released dates.



Bob Ammerman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2005\05\27@020019 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

picon face
Good point Olin :)


Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
> Hmm.  Sell your rejects to the insurance company.  Better than actually
> dumping them in the landfill.  Works OK as long as Guido and Vinny can keep
> their mouth shut and nobody asks too many questions about how a couple of
> losers both ended up with shiny new cars.

2005\05\27@021538 by Jinx

face picon face
> Maxim PR should hire people with brains not with tongues
> and attitude to properly handle such situations. No ifs and buts
> and same applies to security in Malasia.
>
>
> WBR Dmitry.

Dmitry, if "ifs and buts" were fruit and nuts, we'd all have a
Merry Christmas ;-)

Often it takes something like this to shake a company up -
like people who put an alarm in AFTER they've been burgled

'[OT]: Re: [EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@032356 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

picon face
Hi Jinx. Not everyone enjoys "sweet things" you know :)

Any normal company would have a list of major scenarios
"what would have happen if..." with very few possible
gaps left. Loosing a truck with tested and marked chips
doesn't seems like impossible "gap" to me.

World is stock in bullshit.

I've seen email circling recently around ( don't recall
right know from what list ) about how would one person
to give 100% or more of hardwork to his company as most
of the management folks demand on the meetings )

They arranged alphabet from A to Z and assigned
each letter numbers starting from 1 ( to A ) and
ending up by 26 ( Z )

Some of their results

KNOWLEDGE  :  11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5 = 96%
HARDWORK   :  8+1+18+4+23+15+18+11 = 98%
(will bring one very close :)

ATTITUDE   :  1+20+20+9+20+21+4+5 = 100%
(will get you there)

BULLSHIT   :  2+21+12+12+19+8+9+20 = 103%
(will allow one to contribute more than 100%)



Jinx wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@044237 by vasile surducan

picon face
On 5/27/05, Jinx <spamBeGonejoecolquitt@spam@spamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> > Maxim PR should hire people with brains not with tongues
> > and attitude to properly handle such situations. No ifs and buts
> > and same applies to security in Malasia.
> >
> >
> > WBR Dmitry.
>
> Dmitry, if "ifs and buts" were fruit and nuts, we'd all have a
> Merry Christmas ;-)
>
> Often it takes something like this to shake a company up -
> like people who put an alarm in AFTER they've been burgled

Joe,
 As an alarm designer (fortunately it was a long time ago) I can tell you
it's useless to arm the alarm. There is no alarm design which can't be tricked.
And BTW, only in NZ is comming the "bad Santa's" We heve here only
good Santa's, dogs are walking with sausages in the tails and all we
are happy.
:)

Vasile

'[OT]: Re: [EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@055540 by Dmitriy Kiryashov

picon face
Vasile, what kind of "sausages" ? :)


vasile surducan wrote:
>
>  Joe,
>   As an alarm designer (fortunately it was a long time ago) I can tell you
> it's useless to arm the alarm. There is no alarm design which can't be tricked.
> And BTW, only in NZ is comming the "bad Santa's" We heve here only
> good Santa's, dogs are walking with sausages in the tails and all we
> are happy.
> :)

'[EE]:Trembler/tilt switch was Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@062049 by Jinx

face picon face
>  Joe,
>   As an alarm designer (fortunately it was a long time ago)

It's your lucky Vasile, you may have the privilege of helping me ;-)

I've got a little alarm project for a small vehicle that needs a
movement detector and have day-dreamed about it for a day
or two. It's a senior school project for a group of  young ladies
(yes, I know, get over it) -

Anyhoo....

"We are SWIPE, a Young Enterprise team. Young Enterprise is
a learning experience for secondary school students. They have to
form a company; become directors; develop products and services,
which they then have to market and sell"

Someone they approached suggested mercury tilt switches, but in
my limited experience with tilt switches, they aren't all that sensitive
and aren't very good for detecting motion, like a small vehicle being
moved. I've suggested that a pendulum trigger would be better.
Simply a hanging wire in a ring (both gold-plated) that would sway,
as it has far less inertia than a mercury switch (even if the mercury
switch is set at some teetering angle). The wire/ring is how the TILT
switches in pinball machines started off. And they work - I've lost
many a 20p being too energetic

One complication is that the vehicle probably won't always be left
on level ground, so I've been trying to think of a simple way to make
this pendulum switch self-levelling, or another type of switch as an
alternative

So far I've thought of suspending the whole circuit on nylon thread,
or just the wire/ring on thread or a metal chain. It has to be both
sensitive and rugged. The Sensitive New Age Guy of alarm triggers
if you like ;-)

Any ideas ?

'[EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@062905 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
{Quote hidden}

My guess is that nobody packaged untested silicon, but rather that
post-packaging testing wasn't done. I would expect that some small
percentage of parts are messed up at the packaging stage, and perhaps this
happens in a bursty manner (oops, there was a spot of dust on the lens of
the robot vision system that was controlling the wire bonding...) and so a
particular batch of a particular component could have problems.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems


{Quote hidden}

>> {Original Message removed}

'[EE]:Trembler/tilt switch was Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@065416 by Denny Esterline

picon face
{Quote hidden}

Have a look at the vibration sensors from Signal Quest ( P/N SQ-SEN-003P /
3PS / 3PS-XL)  http://www.signalquest.com/

They're basicaly a ball in cage design, but all the parts are gold plated
and sealed. I used some in another project - my only complaint would have to
be price, about $5 US ea in low quantities. But I'm sure they'd send a few
samples if you told them what you're doing.

There's also some app notes from Analog about using an accelerometer for
automotive alarm applications - but I don't have a link handy.

-Denny

2005\05\27@072612 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Someone they approached suggested mercury tilt switches, but in

> Any ideas ?

Two axis accelerometer IC (ADXL202 and friends.)
$US15/1 Digikey.

Mount horizontal to monitor tilt in a plane.
Accept local accelerations at set time as "normal".
Trigger alarm when desired criteria met.


   RM

2005\05\27@072758 by Aza D. Oberman

flavicon
face
<Jinx is considering trembler/tilt detection for his young enterprise club
project>

Back in the dark ages crystal phonograph cartridges had removable needles.
By replacing the needle with a mass and putting it on the bed next to a
sleeping person one could "see" breathing motion and even the recoil from
the heart pumping on a 'scope or strip chart recorder.

While clearly not a "tilt" detector, a mass on a piezo element might give
you, and those gals in your club, a cheap jiggle detector...

Aza D. Oberman

2005\05\27@082628 by Jinx

face picon face
> Two axis accelerometer IC (ADXL202 and friends.)
> $US15/1 Digikey.

I've considered accelerometers. Given more time to develop
the product and maybe a higher sale price (not likely) or lower
component cost, they'd be worth looking at

Aza's suggested something piezo

Two bits of wire is attractive financially but there could be
mechanical difficulties

'[EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@083140 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>My guess is that nobody packaged untested silicon, but
>rather that post-packaging testing wasn't done. I would
>expect that some small percentage of parts are messed
>up at the packaging stage, and perhaps this happens in
>a bursty manner (oops, there was a spot of dust on the
>lens of the robot vision system that was controlling the
>wire bonding...) and so a particular batch of a particular
>component could have problems.

Sounds reasonable. I guess one could also get a percentage where the bond
could be good, but the pressure of forcing the epoxy into the mould either
breaks a bond, or finds a weakness in the wire at some point other than the
bond, causing a break.

As to shipping packaged but untested parts, I guess that the bare chip
testing is not full parametric testing, but basic functional tests, and that
the full parametric tests occur at a plant with labour which has a higher
level of technical expertise (read more expensive) than the assembly plant,
so shipping assembled, but non-parametrically tested, chips may well be a
viable economic way of doing things.

'[EE]:Trembler/tilt switch was Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@083624 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Two axis accelerometer IC (ADXL202 and friends.)
>$US15/1 Digikey.

And you could probably get enough as samples for free from AD.

>Mount horizontal to monitor tilt in a plane.

In this use I always felt that they would perform best so the vertical force
of gravity was at 45 deg to both sensors. Then it may be possible to use a
differential detection between the two sensors without worrying too much
about actual drift of the absolute value.

2005\05\27@085023 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
the ADXL acceleromiters from AD are really nice
in terms of interface straight into the A/D converter
0-5v range, simple SW noise filter would suffice

use a smaller PIC with their digital PWM style output perhaps
PIC10F + acceleromiter (keep in mind you get to quote bulk prices in your
"final product")
+ siren (or use the horn and indicator lights) and link into the cars
existing door open warning system.
LM705 + decoupling caps internal RC osc
few logic level FET's
perhaps some gidgets?


> {Original Message removed}

2005\05\27@090448 by Jinx

face picon face

> >Two axis accelerometer IC (ADXL202 and friends.)
> >$US15/1 Digikey.
>
> And you could probably get enough as samples for free from AD

After several run-ins with Murphy lately, I'd rather pay for OTS

AD's price is US$8.50 / 1000-4999

www.analog.com/en/subCat/0,2879,764%255F800%255F0%255F%255F0%255F,00.
html

which you'd probably say is an easy NZ$15 / 10+ ? That's a big
big part of $50 retail. I'll try Memec on Monday

Would the lower-priced ones like ADXL320 or ADXL311 work
as well ?

'[OT]: Re: [EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@091012 by Dave Lag

picon face
Ahhh, Here in the west we have "sausage dogs" where the whole dog is
made of sausage, (no, not the other way around!)
;)
D

Dmitriy Kiryashov wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[EE]:Trembler/tilt switch was Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@092200 by Jinx

face picon face
> use a smaller PIC with their digital PWM style output perhaps
> PIC10F + acceleromiter (keep in mind you get to quote bulk prices
> in your "final product")
> + siren (or use the horn and indicator lights) and link into the cars
> existing door open warning system.
> LM705 + decoupling caps internal RC osc
> few logic level FET's
> perhaps some gidgets?

I was leaning towards a 12F675, which has A2D and is nW

As far as the overall project goes, I'm trying to put myself in their
shoes. This is part of their general coursework and the business is
not intended to last for the rest of the year.

Their main goal is to demonstrate good business practice, which
includes not losing a heap of money (better still, make a healthy
profit) by successfully marketing a product

My main goal is to help them meet their goal by designing and building,
in record time ! , a short run of reliable, effective alarms with a good
mark-up margin. Originally they suggested a run of 200, but without
any market research I thought that more than a little risky

So I'm all for simplicity, and an accelerometer + PIC certainly is
that, now I need to work on the price

2005\05\27@094451 by Wayne Allen

flavicon
face
looking in my old car alarm, try a spring with a weight (a screw) on one
end soldered to a piezo buzzer disk. any vibration/motion flexed the disk
and generated a voltage...something like this


/-\
| |====*
\-/


V. Cheap!!!!

Wayne

{Quote hidden}

> -

'[EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@095500 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> They said "The failure rate could be as high as 30%.". It "could" also be
> as low as zero, perhaps.

They also didn't say 30% of what... I'm always surprised how much
discussion can happen about the actual value of a percentage without
anybody knowing the base of that percentage.

If I buy one part and it's defective, my failure rate of that part is 100%
(at least when using the "popular" meaning of % -- keep in mind that we're
not really talking about statistics here :). The failure rate of the lot
this part was in probably was something else, the failure rate of the waver
batch, of the whole foundry, of the packaging machine, of the manufacturer
overall, ... you get the idea. All different average failure rate
percentages.

So what's the reference of the 30%? The truck load? Give me a break. I
don't think they have serious statistics about defect averages in truck
loads... :)

Then the "could be as high as"... Employing statistics, for any finite
selection with finite error rates you get a non-0 probability that there is
a failure rate of 100%. And you get a non-0 probability that there is a
failure rate up to 30%. So in precise statistical terms, they didn't say
squat and just stated the obvious -- yes, the error rate could be as high
as 30%, which is something that can be said to have a probability of
greater than 0 for any selection of components. To become real, non-obvious
information, they would have to have included some more details about their
statistic assumptions.

Gerhard

'[EE]:Trembler/tilt switch was Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@095639 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamKILLspammit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamRemoveMEmit.edu]
>Sent: 27 May 2005 12:24
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [EE]:Trembler/tilt switch was Maxim truck hijacked
>
>
><Jinx is considering trembler/tilt detection for his young
>enterprise club
>project>
>
>Back in the dark ages crystal phonograph cartridges had
>removable needles. By replacing the needle with a mass and
>putting it on the bed next to a sleeping person one could
>"see" breathing motion and even the recoil from the heart
>pumping on a 'scope or strip chart recorder.
>
>While clearly not a "tilt" detector, a mass on a piezo element
>might give you, and those gals in your club, a cheap jiggle detector...

Some of the cheaper car alarms use exactly this scheme.  You need to
limit the maximum possible excursion of the disks as the peizo material
is very brittle, i.e. dropping it or knocking it hard could be enough to
damage the disk.

The higher cost alarms (e.g. clifford) use an inductive sensor,
essentialy a coil of wire next to a magnet which is mounted in a rubber
suspension.  More robist and the rubber suspension makes the system
naturaly damped.  It may be possible to adapt this to the tilt sensor by
using a hall effect sensor instead of the coil.

Regards

Mike

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2005\05\27@095829 by Peter

picon face

On Fri, 27 May 2005, Jinx wrote:

> So far I've thought of suspending the whole circuit on nylon thread,
> or just the wire/ring on thread or a metal chain. It has to be both
> sensitive and rugged. The Sensitive New Age Guy of alarm triggers
> if you like ;-)

Does it have to be cheap too ? (can you use Maxim parts ?). There was a
thread on the piclist about 2 years ago that discussed exctly this and
the conclusion was that a 2-axis accelerometer would be good, or a
subcritically damped electrolytic level sensor.

Your chain solution does not work as designed (to put it simply, there
is a trick that involves tying 3 equal threads to the top of a glass of
water, full of water, tying them into a knot above it and then grabbing
the knot and swinging the device any way you like - there will be no
spillage as long as the threads are taut).

But if you make an electrolytic attitude sensor it should work. Is this
a demo model or must it work 'forever', pass tests, refuse to freeze
solid in winter etc ?

Peter

'[EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@100144 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 08:54 AM 5/27/2005, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
> > They said "The failure rate could be as high as 30%.". It "could" also be
> > as low as zero, perhaps.
>
>They also didn't say 30% of what... I'm always surprised how much
>discussion can happen about the actual value of a percentage without
>anybody knowing the base of that percentage.
>
>If I buy one part and it's defective, my failure rate of that part is 100%
>(at least when using the "popular" meaning of % -- keep in mind that we're
>not really talking about statistics here :).

Indeed, your sample size it statistically meaningless.


>Then the "could be as high as"... Employing statistics, for any finite
>selection with finite error rates you get a non-0 probability that there is
>a failure rate of 100%.

I think it's obvious that the high defect rate quoted was intended to
deter black market purchasers.

Interesting opportunity for their competition though, to have a look
at "raw" output and what Max's yield rates are, if they are truly
untested parts, which seems doubtful.


'[EE]:Trembler/tilt switch was Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\27@104943 by phil B

picon face
use the adxl311, a lot cheaper ($6.38 directly from
ad).


--- Russell McMahon <.....apptechspamRemoveMEparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> --

2005\05\27@113217 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On May 27, 2005, at 4:12 AM, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Two axis accelerometer IC (ADXL202 and friends.)
> $US15/1 Digikey.

And frequently available cheaper as "tilt sensitive" game controllers,
for instance:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=EX-517

BillW

2005\05\27@123544 by David P Harris

picon face
Jinx wrote:

>>Two axis accelerometer IC (ADXL202 and friends.)
>>$US15/1 Digikey.
>>    
>>
>
>I've considered accelerometers. Given more time to develop
>the product and maybe a higher sale price (not likely) or lower
>component cost, they'd be worth looking at
>
>Aza's suggested something piezo
>
>Two bits of wire is attractive financially but there could be
>mechanical difficulties
>
>  
>
Hi -

There is an article on "Electronic Angle Measurement" using a ADXL202,
PIC16F84A, and LCD in this month's Circuit Cellar (June 2005).

David


2005\05\27@163335 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
Jinx opined:
> Someone they approached suggested mercury tilt switches, but
> in my limited experience with tilt switches, they aren't all
> that sensitive and aren't very good for detecting motion,
> like a small vehicle being moved. I've suggested that a
> pendulum trigger would be better.
> Simply a hanging wire in a ring (both gold-plated) that would
> sway, as it has far less inertia than a mercury switch (even
> if the mercury switch is set at some teetering angle). The
> wire/ring is how the TILT switches in pinball machines
> started off. And they work - I've lost many a 20p being too energetic
>
> One complication is that the vehicle probably won't always be
> left on level ground, so I've been trying to think of a
> simple way to make this pendulum switch self-levelling, or
> another type of switch as an alternative
>

A metal ball inside a "cage" made from loops of wire. The cage is curved
(the loops at the ends are higher than the loops in the middle) so that the
ball will come to rest away from the ends even if the truck is not level.
Each wire loop is electrically separate and connected to a PIC pin. Scan the
pins looking for which loops are shorted together by the ball. If the short
moves, so did the truck.

---
James.


2005\05\27@180127 by Bob Blick

face picon face
A piezo electric disc, soldered to the PC board at one edge, with a
3mmx25mm  machine screw soldered to and protruding from the far edge. I've
seen that as a tilt sensor in cheap car alarms. Just don't expect it to
survive a lot of 4-wheeling.

-Bob

2005\05\27@195509 by Jinx

face picon face
> But if you make an electrolytic attitude sensor it should work. Is this
> a demo model or must it work 'forever', pass tests, refuse to freeze
> solid in winter etc ?

It's a bona fide product that'll be offered for sale at a special event
next month (which I can't stall, too big), and thereafter. It's going to
get rough treatment in cold winters and hot summers and a lot of rain.
Given more freedom wrt time/money I'd like it to be the alarm Harrods
would sell you. Which is why the accelerometer appeals to me on a
techie level, but I'd have to get cost down

I really appreciate all the ideas put forward so far. There's nothing
like a simple project with lots of possibilities is there ? ;-) Usually
fun watching these from the outside, not quite so funny when it's
yourself trying meet a deadline. Everything suggested so far is worth
investigating and I'm sure would be doable. The killer is the deadline.
I just don't want to risk having parts turn up the day after due date
(or worse, the day before and they weren't right for the job after all)


2005\05\27@230840 by Denny Esterline

picon face
> I really appreciate all the ideas put forward so far. There's nothing
> like a simple project with lots of possibilities is there ? ;-) Usually
> fun watching these from the outside, not quite so funny when it's
> yourself trying meet a deadline. Everything suggested so far is worth
> investigating and I'm sure would be doable. The killer is the deadline.
> I just don't want to risk having parts turn up the day after due date
> (or worse, the day before and they weren't right for the job after all)


How many do you need? If you're interested in the SignalQuest parts, I think
I have a handful of them around here somewhere (about 10, IIRC)

-Denny

2005\05\28@001342 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Which is why the accelerometer appeals to me on a
> techie level, but I'd have to get cost down

Take rotary pot.
Mount L bracket on shaft.
Mount 2nd pot on this at 90 degrees.
Mount this by shaft to car etc body.
Hang weight off outer pot.
Align contraption so pots are at half travel when neutral.
This is a 2 axis accelerometer
Cermet or plastic pots increase life.

Cheap accelerometer arguably as cheap.


   RM

'[EE]:Maxim truck hijacked'
2005\05\28@082040 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Dave VanHorn wrote:

> I think it's obvious that the high defect rate quoted was intended to
> deter black market purchasers.

Exactly.... which makes all the discussion about what it means basically
meaningless. Technically, it means nothing -- no yield rate for tested,
semi-tested or untested batches, wavers, truck loads, nothing. Pure
marketing.

> Interesting opportunity for their competition though, to have a look at
> "raw" output and what Max's yield rates are, if they are truly untested
> parts, which seems doubtful.

Not really an interesting opportunity... probably doesn't make much sense
to compare your competitor's marketing noise with your statistical figures.

Gerhard

2005\05\28@103337 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face

>
> > Interesting opportunity for their competition though, to have a look at
> > "raw" output and what Max's yield rates are, if they are truly untested
> > parts, which seems doubtful.
>
>Not really an interesting opportunity... probably doesn't make much sense
>to compare your competitor's marketing noise with your statistical figures.

I meant by actually getting some of the raw output.

2005\05\29@084946 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Dave VanHorn wrote:

>>> Interesting opportunity for their competition though, to have a look at
>>> "raw" output and what Max's yield rates are, if they are truly
>>> untested parts, which seems doubtful.
>>
>>Not really an interesting opportunity... probably doesn't make much sense
>>to compare your competitor's marketing noise with your statistical figures.
>
> I meant by actually getting some of the raw output.

Oh, I missed that... but then there's the big "if" you noted. So probably
not even there an opportunity. It seems the only opportunity this presented
was to have a peek at Maxim's marketing strategies in an unusual situation
-- and to get some directed help from competitors regarding compatible
replacements :)

Gerhard

2005\05\29@204629 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
Or, you could just warn that there are counterfeit parts out there and
advise people to buy Maxim parts only through Maxim dealers

       http://www.maxim-ic.com/sales/counterfeit_parts.cfm



'[OT] the empire gets struck back'
2005\10\28@121026 by Alan B. Pearce
face picon face
Forwarded from another list

http://recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com/2005/10/oregon-riaa-victim-fights-back-sues.html

> nice to see a bit of balance entering into this whole business.



'[EE]: 1986 Truck voltage regulator'
2007\10\12@120724 by Cedric Chang
flavicon
face
I am tracing the circuitry on a 1986 Ford F-250 truck voltage  
regulator.  There are four lugs emerging from the regulator and they  
are labeled I - A - S - F when reading them from left to right.  I  
have some guesses as to what they are for.  Can anyone use their way-
back machine and tell me the function of each of these lugs.

Thanks

Cedric

2007\10\13@211538 by Dave Lagzdin

picon face
If I had to "guess"
www.junkyardgenius.com/charging/ford02.html
:)

On 12/10/2007, Cedric Chang <ccspam@spam@nope9.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -


'[OT]: Tow Truck stories revenge ?'
2008\04\30@130654 by Cedric Chang
flavicon
face
I had a trailer located in the parking lot of a church.  I had gotten  
permission to park it there.  Due to some confusion, a new church  
employee called a towing company.   The towing company owner was on  
vacation for 3 days and when he came back, he wanted towing charges  
plus 3 days storage.   Oh yes, by the way, he doubled the towing and  
storage charges because there was a car loaded on the trailer.

I have thought many times that the late night application of  
expanding foam in the exhaust pipe of his trucks ( they are parked on  
the street ) would be fun.

cc

'[OT]: Tow Truck stories revenge ?'
2008\04\30@133424 by David VanHorn

picon face
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Cedric Chang <EraseMEccRemoveMEspamSTOPspamnope9.com> wrote:
> I had a trailer located in the parking lot of a church.  I had gotten
> permission to park it there.  Due to some confusion, a new church
> employee called a towing company.   The towing company owner was on
> vacation for 3 days and when he came back, he wanted towing charges
> plus 3 days storage.   Oh yes, by the way, he doubled the towing and
> storage charges because there was a car loaded on the trailer.

It was wrongfully towed, I don't see how you owe him anything,
ESPECIALLY for the time he was on vacation.   But such guys are
professional assholes.

> I have thought many times that the late night application of
> expanding foam in the exhaust pipe of his trucks ( they are parked on
> the street ) would be fun.

GAS tank!    It dosen't become apparent till they try to fuel up,
which just adds to the fun.

2008\04\30@140736 by Hazelwood Lyle

flavicon
face
> > I have thought many times that the late night application of
> > expanding foam in the exhaust pipe of his trucks ( they are
> parked on
> > the street ) would be fun.
>
> GAS tank!    It dosen't become apparent till they try to fuel up,
> which just adds to the fun.
> --

Or you could just buy him a locking gas cap. :-)

Lyle

'[OT]: Tow Truck stories revenge ?'
2008\04\30@142109 by Matthew Miller

flavicon
face
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 11:06:30AM -0600, Cedric Chang wrote:
> I had a trailer located in the parking lot of a church.  I had gotten  
> permission to park it there.  Due to some confusion, a new church  
> employee called a towing company.   The towing company owner was on  
> vacation for 3 days and when he came back, he wanted towing charges  
> plus 3 days storage.   Oh yes, by the way, he doubled the towing and  
> storage charges because there was a car loaded on the trailer.
>
> I have thought many times that the late night application of  
> expanding foam in the exhaust pipe of his trucks ( they are parked on  
> the street ) would be fun.

While in college, I knew a guy that broke into the towing company's yard and
liberated his car. :) I think of him as an every-man hero, but of course his
actions didn't turn out well for him...

Around the same time a student shot a crossbow dart at a tow truck, which
was more stupid and had worse consequences.

Here's what you can do that might be more effective and even more
satisfying (and isn't a crime): spread the word, gossip, what a bad
businessman this person is. Drive business away from him. Everyone likes
"underdog" gossip! ;)

Matt

'[OT]: Tow Truck stories revenge ?'
2008\04\30@143251 by David VanHorn

picon face
Yeah.. There is some fun in theorizing, but in the end, actually doing
any of that usually works out badly.

But one can dream. (subject to restrictions for homeland security)

'[OT]: Tow Truck stories revenge ?'
2008\04\30@151349 by Tony Harris

picon face
Personally, I would think that employee should be on the hook for at least some if not all of the charges - he/she shouldn't have called the towing company without previously checking the status of the vehicle on the property - they appear to have overstepped their bounds and should be made to make good on their mistake.
 
 Although, yes, I think that towing company is being about as unfair as they can be by attempting a double charge, you can probably fight the double charge as technically it's not taking more space then it would with just the trailer alone.  I'd definitly stay away from anything damaging property tho, otherwise you might end up owing a lot more that would actually be yours to owe...
 
 JMHO
 
 -Tony
 

Cedric Chang <RemoveMEccKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTnope9.com> wrote:
 I had a trailer located in the parking lot of a church. I had gotten
permission to park it there. Due to some confusion, a new church
employee called a towing company. The towing company owner was on
vacation for 3 days and when he came back, he wanted towing charges
plus 3 days storage. Oh yes, by the way, he doubled the towing and
storage charges because there was a car loaded on the trailer.

2008\04\30@152638 by Martin

face
flavicon
face
If it's a lot of money just get a lawyer involved, the tow truck company
is unlikely to want to deal with lawyers (get someone 'bigger' on your side)
-
Martin


Cedric Chang wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\04\30@160857 by Jeff Findley

flavicon
face

"Martin" <spamBeGonemartinspam@spam@nnytech.net> wrote in message
news:RemoveME4818C7D7.1090004spam_OUTspamnnytech.net...
> If it's a lot of money just get a lawyer involved, the tow truck company
> is unlikely to want to deal with lawyers (get someone 'bigger' on your
> side)

Or just pay the bill and then sue the guy in small claims court.  I'd think
that a judge in small claims court would be pretty reasonable about giving
you back the money for the car storage, since it was *on top* of the
trailer.  Usually the fee for doing this isn't very much and you don't have
to pay a lawyer.

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein



2008\04\30@165410 by Jinx

face picon face
> Or just pay the bill and then sue the guy in small claims court

Even informing him that's what you intend to do might be enough
to show him you're serious about not paying and make him back
down

I've heard a wicked one about revenge on a taxi driver

ISTR it was dished out, very coldly, by a male friend of a female
grossly aggrieved by something a taxi driver had done

He saw the driver in a line of taxis somewhere. Starting at the back
of the line, he went to each and asked "Are you the guy that does
hand jobs ?". As you'd expect, each driver indignantly declined

When he got to the target, in full view of the line of cabs behind,
he leaned over, said "City St please" and got in

I suspect that towies may demonstrate their indignation. With a
chain or a jemmy perhaps, before you get to truck #2


2008\04\30@182914 by Philip Pemberton

face
flavicon
face
Cedric Chang wrote:
> I had a trailer located in the parking lot of a church.  I had gotten  
> permission to park it there.  Due to some confusion, a new church  
> employee called a towing company.   The towing company owner was on  
> vacation for 3 days and when he came back, he wanted towing charges  
> plus 3 days storage.   Oh yes, by the way, he doubled the towing and  
> storage charges because there was a car loaded on the trailer.

I'm not one for revenge, it never seems to accomplish anything (except causing
more trouble). Intellectual and moral high road FTW.

Best plan? Talk to a lawyer. Discuss the legality of his actions, possibly
take it to court. If that's too expensive, small claims court might be an option.

If you're feeling vindictive, pay the fine then sue the jackass that called
the truck.

Less vindictive? Go after the tow company. Charging double because there's a
car on the trailer would (in this country) almost certainly be struck down any
judge with an ounce of sense.

What's even more fun is the Unfair Contract Terms Act. If a court decides that
a contract term is unfair, that term can be nullified (or the whole contract
in some cases - IANAL and memory fails me at the moment). Subtle enforcement
of the concept of a contract being a two-sided agreement, not a method for
bullying.

Paying the fine on a credit card then charging it back would be another
option, but I suspect your bank may be less than pleased. The catch is by
paying it you're sort-of agreeing that the price is fair, but the price only
goes up with time. Basically the guy has you by the short and curlies...

IMHO the whole car-towing trade should be outright abolished. Yes you can
clamp the car at the side of the road, and there should be a maximum fine set
in law, but removing the vehicle should be considered theft (TWOC - Taken
Without Owner's Consent). In effect, the whole thing is legalised extortion. I
seem to recall there was something on ITV's "Tonight" show about this exact
thing... and BBC's "Watchdog" show have certainly covered it on occasion too.

--
Phil.                         |  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
piclistspamspamphilpem.me.uk         | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | (")_(") world domination.

2008\04\30@195359 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> While in college, I knew a guy that broke into the towing
> company's yard and
> liberated his car. :) I think of him as an every-man hero,
> but of course his
> actions didn't turn out well for him...

I did scale a tow truck yard's fence once, before I went to
the office, so I could check my car before confronting them.
The car had been illegally towed - it was validly parked in
my own company's car park.  No dogs on duty that day,
fortunately.

> Here's what you can do that might be more effective and
> even more
> satisfying (and isn't a crime): spread the word, gossip,
> what a bad
> businessman this person is. Drive business away from him.
> Everyone likes
> "underdog" gossip! ;)

Everyone knows that tow truck companies act like everyone
who works there are scum. (Funny how false impressions can
be created). Bad press at the public level doesn't hurt them
much. And may get them some business. I had in mind those
who may care about people effectively employing strong arm
tactics in their city.


       Russell


2008\04\30@195359 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> If it's a lot of money just get a lawyer involved, the tow
> truck company
> is unlikely to want to deal with lawyers (get someone
> 'bigger' on your side)

I visited the tow truck company, as noted. The pleasant
manager on duty said that their actions had been
successfully defended in court on numerous occasions.

I'm hoping that trial by TV program may prove more robust.



       Russell


'[OT]: Tow Truck stories revenge ?'
2008\05\01@041603 by Alan B. Pearce
face picon face
>I visited the tow truck company, as noted. The pleasant
>manager on duty said that their actions had been
>successfully defended in court on numerous occasions.

Did you ask them for case numbers? It may well be that non of the cases
concern this particular site.

2008\05\01@045853 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> >I visited the tow truck company, as noted. The pleasant
>>manager on duty said that their actions had been
>>successfully defended in court on numerous occasions.
>
> Did you ask them for case numbers? It may well be that non
> of the cases
> concern this particular site.

He didn't actually care.
He was essentially saying "So sue us - many people have and
they have all failed".
If it had been MY car involved then I think the small claims
court would be an excellent way to go. As it was a friend of
my son's that complicates such an approach. I think trial by
Mayor, MP and TV are the more useful routes. Trial by
internet is less useful as everyone knows about tow truck
companies already :-).



       Russell




2008\05\01@064149 by Dennis Crawley

picon face
On Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:06 PM [GMT-3=CET],
Cedric Chang  wrote:

> I had a trailer located in the parking lot of a church.
> I had gotten permission to park it there.  Due to some
> confusion, a new church employee called a towing company.
> cc

Buy a bottle of the finest whisky and go to talk with the priest.
... by Christmas this issue will be solved.

BTW, whenever I read the word "revenge", I don't know why,
I remmember the movie "Galaxy Quest" :)





2008\05\01@070733 by Jeff Findley

flavicon
face

"Apptech" <spam_OUTapptechspam_OUTspamspam_OUTparadise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:013501c8ab1d$6b318d70$e701a8c0@y2k...
>> If it's a lot of money just get a lawyer involved, the tow
>> truck company
>> is unlikely to want to deal with lawyers (get someone
>> 'bigger' on your side)
>
> I visited the tow truck company, as noted. The pleasant
> manager on duty said that their actions had been
> successfully defended in court on numerous occasions.

Of course they're going to say that.  They want you to believe that they're
right and you're wrong and you should just pay them and quietly go away.

Of course, I don't know the laws in NZ, so they may be right.  Are there any
law help lines at the local university there?  Here in the US, universities
with law programs sometimes offer legal help for free, or a small fee.

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein



2008\05\01@090445 by alan smith

picon face
I dunno if you can get out of the towing charges.  You need to...hopefully did....show record that you attempted to get in touch with him over those 3 days he was gone, meaning that he should have had someone in charge while gone to release the trailer.  Otherwise, he could tow and "store" alot of cars, go away for 2 weeks and then charge everyone for those weeks and make alot of money..unfairly.  Granted, the employee should not have called for a tow, so maybe they will split that charge.  Its the storage fee that you could fight in small claims, but you also need to read the tow companies contract with the church as well, and what rights they (towing company) have and assume.  
 
 So if it was me, I'd see if the church would split the tow charges...go and pay that to the guy and say...your unfair, and either you drop those charges or I take you to court...see what he says.  It will cost you between $50 and $100 to file suite, but if you win, he pays that back to you.   Might also check with the BBB to see if he has been doing this in the past, as it might be another bit if evidence on your side showing he is being unfair in his practices.
 
 Good luck...and forget the revenge.  That will just land you in worse trouble.

Tony Harris <kg4wfxspam_OUTspamyahoo.com> wrote:
 Personally, I would think that employee should be on the hook for at least some if not all of the charges - he/she shouldn't have called the towing company without previously checking the status of the vehicle on the property - they appear to have overstepped their bounds and should be made to make good on their mistake.

Although, yes, I think that towing company is being about as unfair as they can be by attempting a double charge, you can probably fight the double charge as technically it's not taking more space then it would with just the trailer alone. I'd definitly stay away from anything damaging property tho, otherwise you might end up owing a lot more that would actually be yours to owe...

JMHO

-Tony


Cedric Chang wrote:
I had a trailer located in the parking lot of a church. I had gotten
permission to park it there. Due to some confusion, a new church
employee called a towing company. The towing company owner was on
vacation for 3 days and when he came back, he wanted towing charges
plus 3 days storage. Oh yes, by the way, he doubled the towing and
storage charges because there was a car loaded on the trailer.


'[OT] Driverless trucks ...was:Matternet - "Interne'
2012\02\09@210435 by YES NOPE9
flavicon
face
Presume that claims for Google cars or other driverless cars are valid.......  that is , a driverless car is safer than a human-piloted one...

Does it make sense that driverless trucks would be safer, more fuel efficient and very clever at routing ?  Perhaps trucks could pick up and drop off loads without human intervention.  Shipments could be routed for maximum cost saving without regard to transit time..... No humans touch the boxes from start to finish.   99guspuppe

2012\02\10@040453 by Jesse Lackey

flavicon
face
Large-scale driverless vehicles will usher in societal change on the scale of the internet and cell phones.  The possibilities are near endless, once one starts thinking about never having to drive (work during commute time), automated deliveries, higher speed driving on very dense roads b/c of vehicle to vehicle coordination, ability to centrally plan routing of many thousands of cars in a metropolitan area minute by minute, knowing within 5 minutes how long a 30 mile drive in dense traffic will take, ability to prioritize some vehicles over others, your car parks itself and meets you when you want it to, on and on and on. Revolution.

Not that it will be easy or fast, but it will happen.  Huge gains in safety, convenience, and efficiency/cost drive it all (pardon the pun.)   But an entire class of lower-middle-class careers will disappear.

J


YES NOPE9 wrote:
> Presume that claims for Google cars or other driverless cars are
> valid......  that is , a driverless car is safer than a human-piloted
> one...
>
> Does it make sense that driverless trucks would be safer, more fuel
> efficient and very clever at routing ?  Perhaps trucks could pick up
> and drop off loads without human intervention.  Shipments could be
> routed for maximum cost saving without regard to transit time..... No
> humans touch the boxes from start to finish.   99guspuppe

2012\02\10@045021 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
And if you think it over it started to be happen already. Commercial
airplanes can take off, land and fly without a pilot, military uses UAV
planes to save lives of pilots and to reduce the size of the vehicle and of
course to make manoeuvres that is cannot be stand by a human. Many train
system can go without the driver etc... And of course there is the Google
car and most main car manufacturers are developing such system.

After quick search I have found these:

Mercedes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-j0jXEGbGs

Volkswagen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ6JKzdZUrk

GM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e32yeI1YSI0

Tamas



On 10 February 2012 09:05, Jesse Lackey <RemoveMEjsl-mlKILLspamspam@spam@celestialaudio.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2012\02\10@053632 by alan.b.pearce

face picon face
> And if you think it over it started to be happen already. Commercial
> airplanes can take off, land and fly without a pilot, military uses UAV
> planes to save lives of pilots and to reduce the size of the vehicle and of
> course to make manoeuvres that is cannot be stand by a human. Many train
> system can go without the driver etc... And of course there is the Google
> car and most main car manufacturers are developing such system.
>
> After quick search I have found these:
>
> Mercedes:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-j0jXEGbGs
>
> Volkswagen:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ6JKzdZUrk
>
> GM:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e32yeI1YSI0
>
> Tamas

I don't have time to check the videos, but there is also the 'self parking' systems being fitted to some cars now.


-- Scanned by iCritical.

2012\02\10@120942 by Carey Fisher

face picon face
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:05 AM, Jesse Lackey <jsl-mlspamBeGonespam.....celestialaudio.com>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Somebody once said that we overestimate technological change in the short
term (flying cars) but underestimate it in the long term (Internet).
Personally, I hope to live another 30-40 years to see what technology
brings us.

-- Carey Fisher
Chief Technical Officer
New Communications Solutions, LLC
678-999-3956
KILLspamcareyfisherspam.....ncsradio.co

2012\02\10@125814 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
On 10 February 2012 17:09, Carey Fisher <spam_OUTcareyfisherspamKILLspamncsradio.com> wrote:

> Somebody once said that we overestimate technological change in the short
> term (flying cars) but underestimate it in the long term (Internet).
> Personally, I hope to live another 30-40 years to see what technology
> brings us.


30 years later you will say the very same thing... It is easier to look
back: My grandma had no telly nor car or phone when she was young, maybe
not even in her street -- when she died she died she had remote controlled
colour TV, HiFi, both wired and cellphone... Everything happened in a time
frame of only one human life.

Tama

2012\02\10@130107 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
(sorry for the repetition of 'she died', not sure how my computer echoed
back this many times :-) )


On 10 February 2012 17:58, Tamas Rudnai <RemoveMEtamas.rudnaiRemoveMEspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

-- int main() { char *a,*s,*q; printf(s="int main() { char *a,*s,*q;
printf(s=%s%s%s, q=%s%s%s%s,s,q,q,a=%s%s%s%s,q,q,q,a,a,q); }",
q="\"",s,q,q,a="\\",q,q,q,a,a,q);

2012\02\10@154207 by Denny Esterline

picon face
Not long ago many manufacturers were dumping significant sums of money into
various self driving car ideas. The whole scene got very quiet after one
question was asked:
When a self driving car injures someone, who's responsible?
(translate that into "who get's sued")

In my opinion, we won't see significant deployment of this tech until
someone has a very good answer to that question.

-Denn

2012\02\11@003105 by YES NOPE9

flavicon
face
It seems pretty simple to me.
These vehicles will be loaded with sensors and recording devices.
If an accident occurs... tons of data will indicate who or what caused the accident.
A percentage will be applied to each vehicle or external event.... and who is in control will be ascertained.
Kind of creepy.... but not particularly hard to determine.
99guspuppet


{Quote hidden}

2012\02\11@040646 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
I think the biggest problem would be the transition period when both self
and human driven cars will be on the road -- once it is completed and every
single vehicle will be self driven one no one would sue anyone as there
will be significantly less accidents and then when it happens machines
would not want to find all kind of excuses why it happened and who's fault
was that -- no need lawyers or police involved.

Tamas


On 11 February 2012 05:31, YES NOPE9 <yesspamspamnope9.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2012\02\19@223500 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
hmm... you guys seem to have much more faith in computer-controlled
machinery than I do... remember computerized voting machines? when was
the last time you flew on a robot-controlled airliner? I guess I am
just getting old...

--Bob A

On 2/9/12, YES NOPE9 <RemoveMEyesspamBeGonespamRemoveMEnope9.com> wrote:
> Presume that claims for Google cars or other driverless cars are valid.......
>  that is , a driverless car is safer than a human-piloted one...
>
> Does it make sense that driverless trucks would be safer, more fuel
> efficient and very clever at routing ?  Perhaps trucks could pick up and
> drop off loads without human intervention.  Shipments could be routed for
> maximum cost saving without regard to transit time..... No humans touch the
> boxes from start to finish.   99guspuppet
>

2012\02\19@225745 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I, too, am skeptical of robotic cars, but I must point out that all
airliners today ARE big robots. While they DO need human help, most of
the flying is done by setting the autopilot, and even that is not
necessary if you do not deviate from the pre-programmed plan.

Sean

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Bob Axtell <KILLspambob.axtellspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2012\02\20@100308 by Bob Ammerman

flavicon
face
> when was
> the last time you flew on a robot-controlled airliner? I guess I am
> just getting old...
>
> --Bob A

The last time I flew, at least for a good part of the flight, I am sure.

-- Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

2012\02\20@102151 by Chris Roper

picon face
On one flight I was on  the Pilot came on the intercom after the landing
and said:
"sorry for the bumpy landing, regulations state we have to do
it manually occasionally to stay in practice"

So I guess most landings are under Auto Pilot control too.

On 20 February 2012 17:03, Bob Ammerman <picramspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneroadrunner.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2012\02\20@105306 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Interesting, I thought it was the opposite: Once it was really foggy and
the pilot announced that now we will use auto pilot for landing as the
visibility is zero... Everyone become very quiet all in a sudden and some
was praying for the creator of zeros and ones :-)

Tamas


On 20 February 2012 15:21, Chris Roper <spamBeGonecaroperspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > --

2012\02\21@131244 by Joe Wronski

flavicon
face
I thought you said "computerized vomiting machines".  Must ... clean ... keyboard and screen.
Getting old, too.
Joe W


On 2/19/2012 10:34 PM, Bob Axtell wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2012\02\21@152613 by IVP

face picon face
> Must ... clean ... keyboard and screen

>I thought you said "computerized vomiting machines".
And here I am vomiting on my keyboard and screen the old-fashioned wa

2012\02\22@010111 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
In the US at least, to my knowledge, it is not allowed to land with
zero visibility unless there is an emergency. Each approach path to
each runway has a "decision height". While you are on approach in
instrument meteorological conditions, you can fly the approach
completely "blind" up until decision height. At that point, however,
if you cannot see the runway by eye or at least see the runway lights
by eye, you must abort the landing and fly to your designated
alternate landing site (or some other landing site or a different
runway at the same airport or sit in a holding pattern until the
weather improves).

Of course, the above does not determine whether you use Auto-land or
do it manually but it does indicate that you should not normally be
landing in ultra-low visibility anyway.

Sean


On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Tamas Rudnai <TakeThisOuTtamas.rudnaispamspamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[OT] Driverless trucks ...was:Matternet - "Interne'
2012\02\22@085008 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
That's not likely not true, but the blind landings require certain equipment, plane and crew certifications. There have been significant changes in the last few years. Zero visibility landings are more interesting once on the ground, with navigating around on the runway and taxiways when you can't see anything. It was not unusual to send a vehicle to drive out and leas the plane in. Then the hazard is taxiing on to an active runway, or collision with other objects on the ground. It's hard enough to keep those wingtips damage free.

An interesting item is private operators, not for hire can depart (with normal IFR clearances) in zero visibility. This could be a company owned plane with only company employees on board. But generally the ability to return to the same airport safely governs the go/no-go decision.

On 2/22/2012 1:01 AM, Sean Breheny wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[OT] Driverless trucks ...was:Matternet - "Interne'
2012\02\22@085617 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi Carl,

Trying to understand your answer. What do you mean by "That's not
likely not true"?

On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Carl Denk <EraseMEcdenkRemoveMEspamwindstream.net> wrote:
> That's not likely not true, but the blind landings require certai

'[OT] Driverless trucks ...was:Matternet - "Interne'
2012\02\22@093504 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
When, I got out of flying 5 years ago, the blind landings were just starting to get approved, and there were relatively few planes crews approved. There have been significant improvements in the equipment available and quantity installed since then. I have to assume the air carriers (airlines) have taken up on this, and new planes delivered have the capability, many planes retrofitted, and crews trained and certified as part of their routine required (annual) training. And then to insurance carriers frequently have requirements that are beyond the FAA or other government agencies. I recently had a friend with a homebuilt aircraft install an EFIS (Electronic glass screen display) system in his plane. This is common place today, where 7 years ago, the cost was prohibitive.

Here's the standard ILS (Instrument landing system)  approach procedure for our local airport showing 200' above, and 1/2 mile visibility as minimums
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1202/05703IL7.PDF

Here's the Catagory III ILS at Cleveland's airport showing no vertical restriction, but does have RVR 06 (Runway visual range = 600') which is saying the pilot needs a little (600' @ 120 mph) sight distance to navigate on the ground.

There might be better info, but this is what I found quickly.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway_visual_range
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/ILS.htm

And

On 2/22/2012 8:56 AM, Sean Breheny wrote:
> Hi Carl,
>
> Trying to understand your answer. What do you mean by "That's not
> likely not true"?
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Carl Denk<spamcdenk.....spamspamwindstream.net>  wrote:
>    
>> That's not likely not true, but the blind landings require certain
>>

'[OT] Driverless trucks ...was:Matternet - "Interne'
2012\02\22@155756 by John Gardner

picon face
I've had the experience of being talked down by a PAR operator
in fog so thick I could'nt see the ground standing on it, finally.
Taxiing perhaps more dangerous than flying, in those conditions.

Many years ago, military helos

2012\02\23@224417 by John Gardner

picon face
In the news...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/02/23/BU4E1NAK5L.DTL&type=auto

2012\02\24@204605 by IVP

face picon face


> hmm... you guys seem to have much more faith in computer-controlled
> machinery than I do

How about this one Bob ? Game ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2106032/Mind-youre-going-The-skateboard-controlled-brainwaves-moves-think-should.html

'[OT] Driverless trucks ...was:Matternet - "Interne'
2012\02\24@234243 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
On Sat, Feb 25, 2012, at 02:45 PM, IVP wrote:
>
>
> > hmm... you guys seem to have much more faith in computer-controlled
> > machinery than I do
>
> How about this one Bob ? Game ?
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2106032/Mind-youre-going-The-skateboard-controlled-brainwaves-moves-think-should.html
I'm used to my car going where I look, so skateboards going when I think
is OK, too :)

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
                         or over the web

'[OT] Driverless trucks ...was:Matternet -"Internet'
2012\02\25@200446 by IVP

face picon face

> I'm used to my car going where I look, so skateboards going when
> I think is OK, too :)

'tis a pity about the 'distractions' though. You know, cars pulling out,
cars going past, pedestrians, young child chasing a ball from between
two parked cars, what time is it, how fast am I going, my nose itches,
bet that girl thinks I'm way cool .........

Needs to be able to positively detect and act on only key thought

2012\02\25@211844 by Justin Richards

face picon face
It so happens I have just applied for a position with a company that
provides support for driver less trucks

2012\02\26@171742 by IVP

face picon face
> provides support for driver less trucks

Insurance ? A & E

2012\02\26@205425 by Justin Richards

face picon face
> Insurance ? A & E ?
> --

>From the position blurb ...

Based on strong growth in the area of Machine Control and Guidance
technologies, the WesTrac Technology Group is expanding its
capabilities in supporting the following products.

The primary focus of the role is to install commission and train
customers/dealers in the use of the Caterpillar technology product
range, and to provide on-going customer support. This product range
includes


'[EE] CAN bus in heavy trucks'
2017\11\13@115116 by Bob Blick
flavicon
face
Is there any standardization of the connectors used in heavy truck CAN bus? For instance, if I have a device that needs to be permanently connected in the vehicle, what are my options as far as connecting to the vehicle's bus? I don't want it to physically interfere with maintenance and diagnostics of the vehicle.

Thanks,

Bob
-- http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
.

2017\11\13@121110 by Chris Pearson

picon face
Some have OBDII like a standard passenger vehicle would. Some don't. Some
have one of two different types of plugs that support the J1939 standard -
there's a 7-pin and a 9-pin IIRC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1939

Some have OBDII as well as a separate J1939 plug. The wiring in each plug
is standardized but there is no one standard across all heavy duty
vehicles.

We used Mitchell's Truck Series when we had to build up a database of which
vehicle had which plug.The purpose was to know if the vehicle had an OBDII
port or if it required an adaptor to be able to plug an OBDII device into
one of the J1939 ports. https://truck.prodemand.com/

For connecting one device in one vehicle permanently you could also just
hardwire into the wiring behind the OBDII or J1939 port.

- Chris Pearson

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Bob Blick <bobblickspam_OUTspam@spam@outlook.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

-- http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
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.

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