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PICList Thread
'Transponder'
1997\03\11@054504 by Octavio Nogueira

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Hi,

Does anyone have any informations about transponder, like the one used
in cars to pay toll? Is it possible to do one with PIC?

Cheers,

Octavio
========================================================
Octavio Nogueira
e-mail:   spam_OUTnogueiraTakeThisOuTspammandic.com.br
homepage: www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/6902/index.html
voice/fax: +55 11 240-6474
"ProPic" The first Production PIC Programmer running in
Windows and under US$ 20.00.
========================================================

1997\03\11@070044 by Oyvind Kaurstad

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>Hi,
>
>Does anyone have any informations about transponder, like the one used
>in cars to pay toll? Is it possible to do one with PIC?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Octavio

In Norway we have a system built on the SAW (Surface Acoustic Waves) principle.

The transponders contain a PCB and a single SAW chip.
The chip contains a pattern that corresponds to a unique serial number.

When a car passes, the system sends out a powerful RF signal
>from an antenna pointed at the car, and the transponder reflects a slightly
modified signal (modified according to the serial number) that is
received by the system.

The transponder contains no batteries or other power source.

A database holds information about payments/number of passings etc for each
serial number.

I don't know how this is done in other countries.

I know of people that pull down the sunscreen, turn on full lights, and steps
on the loud pedal before passing....

Anyway, I don't think it is possible to use a PIC to a thing like this.

If it was possible, you would have to get hold of someone elses serial number
and then they would hav to pay for your passings....

Remember, the above applies only to the system commonly used in Norway.

-Oyvind

1997\03\11@072609 by Micheal Yano

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Apparently the new toll road being built in Toronto, Canada uses PIC devices
as the transponders, it will be interesting to see the results.



At 01:05 PM 3/11/97 +0100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Thanks.


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1997\03\11@094514 by Octavio Nogueira

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> De: Oyvind Kaurstad <.....oyvind.kaurstadKILLspamspam.....NOFAC.ABB.NO>
> Para: EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Assunto: Re: Transponder
> Data: Terga-feira, Margo 11, 1997 09:05


> ... If it was possible, you would have to get hold of someone elses
serial number
> and then they would hav to pay for your passings....
> -Oyvind

HEY, WAIT A MINUT !!!  I'm don't want this information to crack any system,

nor to do any thing ilegal, I'd rather need this informations to try to use

this system here in my city.

Regards,

Octavio
========================================================
Octavio Nogueira
e-mail:   nogueiraspamspam_OUTmandic.com.br
homepage: www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/6902/index.html
voice/fax: +55 11 240-6474
"ProPic" The first Production PIC Programmer running in
Windows and under US$ 20.00.
========================================================

1997\03\11@170610 by Karoly Hoss

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Octavio Nogueira wrote:
>

>
> HEY, WAIT A MINUT !!!  I'm don't want this information to crack any system,
>
> nor to do any thing ilegal, I'd rather need this informations to try to use
>
> this system here in my city.
>

ofcourse , you just want to use the sys legally
they just don't give you the transponder , how rude :)
so you'll have to build your own :)
I'd start searching after the TIRIS sys made by texas

it's a great transponder sys . and symple too .
(even for cracking)

bye
charley

1997\03\12@014229 by Oyvind Kaurstad

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>> ... If it was possible, you would have to get hold of someone elses
>serial number
>> and then they would hav to pay for your passings....
>> -Oyvind

>HEY, WAIT A MINUT !!!  I'm don't want this information to crack any system,

>nor to do any thing ilegal, I'd rather need this informations to try to use

>this system here in my city.

>Regards,

>Octavio

Sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention.

I'm sure it is possible to *design* a system like this with pics, and that is of
course legal.

Making a transponder to be used with an existing system would probably be
illegal...

Right?

-Oyvind

1997\03\13@112604 by Octavio Nogueira

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> ofcourse , you just want to use the sys legally
> they just don't give you the transponder , how rude :)
> so you'll have to build your own :)
> I'd start searching after the TIRIS sys made by texas
>
> it's a great transponder sys . and symple too .
> (even for cracking)
>
> bye
> charley

We don't have any transponder operating here, so who will
not give me the transponder? I just want to install a system like
this.

Octavio
========================================================
Octavio Nogueira
e-mail:   @spam@nogueiraKILLspamspammandic.com.br
homepage: www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/6902/index.html
voice/fax: +55 11 240-6474
"ProPic" The first Production PIC Programmer running in
Windows and under US$ 20.00.
========================================================

1997\03\13@112608 by Octavio Nogueira

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>Sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention.

>I'm sure it is possible to *design* a system like this with pics, and that
is of
>course legal.

>Making a transponder to be used with an existing system would probably be
>illegal...

>Right?

>-Oyvind
>----------

You are absolutely right, I have a system here that weight trucks, but the
operator have to enter the plate number of each truck and sometimes it
weight
about 1000 trucks a day, so it would be nice if I could put one transponder
in
each truck so when it arrives the transponder send this informations and
some
others.

Cheers,

Octavio
========================================================
Octavio Nogueira
e-mail:   KILLspamnogueiraKILLspamspammandic.com.br
homepage: www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/6902/index.html
voice/fax: +55 11 240-6474
"ProPic" The first Production PIC Programmer running in
Windows and under US$ 20.00. Now in version V3.2
========================================================

1997\03\13@121708 by Harrison Cooper

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someplace....in my notes.....I have some info from Micron on some
wireless RF stuff.  I think it might be on the webpage for
them....http://www.micron.com

if not...I'll see if I can dig it out.

1997\03\13@122429 by David W. Duley

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In a message dated 97-03-13 11:29:39 EST, you write:

<<
You are absolutely right, I have a system here that weight trucks, but the
operator have to enter the plate number of each truck and sometimes it
weight
about 1000 trucks a day, so it would be nice if I could put one transponder
in
each truck so when it arrives the transponder send this informations and
some
others.

Cheers,

Octavio >>
Octavio,
I was wondering if some of the products from Dallis Semi.  would do the trick
for you.  They are memory devices that use an RF link.  They are designed to
be put into bins or boxes that move through a facility on conveyor belts and
the like.  Used for batch tracking.  They have a range of about 3 feet.
Dallis sells the PC side of the hardware.  I think it operates on 300mhz AM.

Just a thought
Dave Duley
V.P. DreiTek Inc.

1997\03\13@143149 by Christian Becerra

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Octavio Nogueira wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Octavio : There are several companies that specialize in RFID systems

Try http://www.id-tech.com. They have a development kit also....

--
+++++++++++++++++++CB TECHNOLOGY+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Christian Becerra       Product Development & Failure Analysis
spamBeGonecbecerraspamBeGonespamcsn.net        Custom Test Equipment for Manufacturing
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1997\03\13@160053 by Robert Lunn

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>I have a system here that weighs trucks, but the operator have to
>enter the plate number of each truck and sometimes it weigh about
>1000 trucks a day, so it would be nice if I could put one transponder
>in each truck so when it arrives the transponder send this informations
>and some other.

       You should investigate the TIRIS system from Texas Instruments.
       This is a passive RF transponder, and is widely used around the
       world for the sort of application you describe.

       TI also, of course, sell the interrogator for reading the tags.
       You can get either the basic RF unit (which essentially outputs
       the demodulated RF data stream, from which you must extract the
       tag data) or an intelligent unit (which outputs a formatted RS-
       232 data stream).

       The tags themselves are available in large number of different
       packages, ranging from glass pellets for injection into cattle
       up to solid blocks for attachment to railway cars.

       I believe the also now sell a user programmable tag.

       Other well-known names for similar products are Destron, and
       Trovan.

___Bob

PS:     A quick alta-vista search on 'passive transponder' certainly
       gives you a useful links, including 'http://www.trovan.com'.

1997\03\13@165433 by Martin McCormick

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       Oklahoma has been using what I believe to be the TI tags in
their PikePass system which has been up and running for about 5 or 6 years.
I don't know if the heart of the system is like a PIC, but the tags which
are yellow plastic rectangular boxes about half the size of an audio cassette
contain a lithium battery which dies after about five years.  The strange
thing is that the processor in the tag is always active in that I can detect
a very faint amount of RF coming from it if I hold it near the ferrite
rod antenna on an AM radio.  I am guessing that when the tag is in view of
the microwave dish at the toll booth, the reflected signal carries the ID
number.  The processor, if it is that sophisticated, must gate a conductive
path that changes the way in which the tag reflects the signal.  I am
surprised that the processor doesn't go to sleep when no signal is there to
aluminate it.

       As for the potential for fraud, I think it is pretty low-tech and
consists of the same sort of stuff that dishonest people do with charge cards,
keys, or calling card numbers.  The account balance information is centrally
stored and the presence of a tag at a toll booth either starts or stops
the calculation of a toll.

       My guess is that the circuitry is probably more like a serial ROM
rather than any kind of processor.

Martin McCormick

In message <3.0.32.19970314064358.006afad4@huey>, Robert Lunn writes:
>        You should investigate the TIRIS system from Texas Instruments.
>        This is a passive RF transponder, and is widely used around the
>        world for the sort of application you describe.

1997\03\13@191549 by Robert Lunn

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>I don't know if the heart of the system is like a PIC, but the tags which
>are yellow plastic rectangular boxes about half the size of an audio cassette
>contain a lithium battery which dies after about five years.

   No, the TIRIS tag is _passive_.  It doesn't have an internal power
   source.

___Bob

1997\03\13@204027 by Karoly Hoss

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Octavio Nogueira wrote:
>
> > ofcourse , you just want to use the sys legally
> > they just don't give you the transponder , how rude :)
> > so you'll have to build your own :)
> > I'd start searching after the TIRIS sys made by texas
> >
> > it's a great transponder sys . and symple too .
> > (even for cracking)
> >
> > bye
> > charley
>
> We don't have any transponder operating here, so who will
> not give me the transponder? I just want to install a system like
> this.
>

sorry I was thinking of the highway transponders used in
italy :)

bye
charley

1997\03\15@055539 by Octavio Nogueira

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>We built a system for doing what you describe a few years back. The ti
transponders looked quite good, however the receivers were a little
expensive. I would go with the ti >system if you have a large number of
trucks.
>The transponders are good if
>(1) You have a large number of trucks per receiver, or
>(2) The mobile units do not have their own power. or
>(3) The transponders are not moving past the receiver too quickly.

>A simple alternative to the transponders is to simply send a dumb dtmf
tone through a H field. This gives you 16 distinct 'trucks' and then use a
cheap tone decoder chip on a >receiver (with a dumb loop pickup).
>Otherwise use a cheap, say, 27MHz low power Tx/Rx pair (Don't be afraid to
use walkie talkies, an excellent robot book I say some time ago had that
idea for robot comms).

>Adam Crow
>Crowtech Pty Ltd
>http://www.ozemail.com.au/~crowtech

>P.S. Others may be interested in this post, could you post it to the PIC
list please?

Sure!

Octavio
========================================================
Octavio Nogueira
e-mail:   TakeThisOuTnogueiraEraseMEspamspam_OUTmandic.com.br
homepage: www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/6902/index.html
voice/fax: +55 11 240-6474
"ProPic" The first Production PIC Programmer running in
Windows and under US$ 20.00.
========================================================

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