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'Switching from Microchip to ATMEL'
2011\11\12@054839 by jana1972

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Hi,
I started with PICs( made by Microchip) only recently. I bought PICkit3 and ICD 3 to be able to program PICs and make in-circuit debugging. But in-circuit debugging does not work for me as it should and Microchip was not still able to help.
I even open a ticket but they were not able/willing to answer  it - the ticket remains "pending" and I doubt it will be ever answered .
Shortly ,It does not seem to me that Microchip care about customers , particularly the new customers as it should.

So I am thinking about moving to ATMEL.
Or  is here anyone  who switched to PIC from Atmel? :-)


My story is here with few details:

I bought adaptor with PIC16F648A-ICD to use it for the debugging code of PIC16F628A. Unfortunatelly, I can NOT still use PIC16F648A - ICD for the debugging .
When I try to debug the code, using PIC16F648A-ICD and ICD3 or PICkit3 I receive

ICD3Err0040: The target device is not ready for debugging.
Please check your configuration bit settings and program the device before proceeding.
Stepping target failed.

My Config is __CONFIG _CP_OFF & _LVP_OFF & _BOREN_OFF & _MCLRE_ON & _WDT_OFF &_PWRTE_OFF & _INTOSC_OSC_NOCLKOUT

I bought ICD3 and PIC16F648A-ICD from http://www.farnell.com/. An engineer from the Farnell confirmed the problem with ICD3 reporting:

"
Hi I have been trying to get a similar version of a Microchip header working. But not had any success with the ICD3 yet. All my attempts have failed. This may be an issue that Microchip need to know about. "

I think can spend my time on learning AVR instead
Your comment is welcome.
Thanks

2011\11\12@071306 by enkitec

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On 12-Nov-11 08:48, spam_OUTjana1972TakeThisOuTspamcentrum.cz wrote:
> I think can spend my time on learning AVR instead
>
>

    You won't regret that decision!

    I changed to AVR some ten years ago.

    Mark Jordan

2011\11\12@084907 by Chris McSweeny

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On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 10:48 AM,  <.....jana1972KILLspamspam@spam@centrum.cz> wrote:
> Or  is here anyone  who switched to PIC from Atmel? :-)

I have, but for performance and peripheral availability reasons rather
than any issue I had with PICs. For the devices I use, you get 4 times
as many MIPS as AVRs do one instruction per clock cycle rather than
one every 4 for a PIC.

Chris

2011\11\12@091358 by jim

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If you decide to go to Atmel, would you be willing to sell your PICKIT3 and
PIC16F648A adaptor?
I need one for where I work, and if you won't be needing it, maybe you can
recoup some of the money you spent on it.

Let me know.

Regards,

Jim

{Original Message removed}

2011\11\12@091721 by PICdude

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Atmel has some good products, but I find it tough to base production  items on a company that AFAIK still hasn't turned a profit.  And if  you think you had problems with Microchip support, then best of luck  with Atmel.  I requested samples from Atmel, never received them, then  called a few times (Digikey & Mouser were out of them btw).  Samples  only came after the local FAE wanted to meet me.  He gave me a free  AVR Dragon programmer, which I never was able to get working, and  subsequent emails to the FAE were not responded to.  Then there's that  whole thing with their lawyers not agreeing to keep any discussions I  have with the FAE confidential.  A lot of their support is through the  forum (which IIRC is supported by Atmel), but I have not been able to  register (not receiving confirmation emails), and can't reach anyone  to assist with that.  And Atmel allegedly has a lot of chip shortages.

Microchip isn't perfect, but I can usually call an FAE for help if I  can't get an answer on the forum (and I've called FAE's in Texas when  I was in a bind/rush).  Yes, they've had shortages too, but only once  was I in a bind and called up an FAE I knew in Texas, who scoured the  office for 17 pieces of a PIC and sent it to me -- at no charge.

My perception of Atmel, since they're partnering with the Arduino  folks now, is that they're moving to primarily support the hobbyist  market.  To each their own, so you need to decide what works best for  you.  If you've a hobbyist, I think you'll be fine with Atmel.

Cheers,
-Neil.



Quoting enkitecspamKILLspamgmail.com:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\11\12@100109 by enkitec

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    Hi Neil,

    I never had any problem with their products as you did.
    Haven't used this Dragon. I built my own programmers.
    And I'm not an Hobbyist. Thousands of products in the field.

    Mark Jordan



On 12-Nov-11 12:17, PICdude wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2011\11\12@101917 by Philip Pemberton

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On 12/11/11 10:48, @spam@jana1972KILLspamspamcentrum.cz wrote:
>   So I am thinking about moving to ATMEL.
>
> Or  is here anyone  who switched to PIC from Atmel? :-)

You might also want to have a look at the ST Micro STM8 and STM32 series micros. The devkit boards (Discovery Series) for the STM32 are on the order of £10 each (and similar for the STM8). The CPU core is an ARM Cortex, so you get full GCC support too (= free compilers!). The icing on the cake is that there's an open-source Linux/OSX driver for the ST-Link pod (which is available separately or built into the Discovery boards) -- https://github.com/texane/stlink/.

There's also support from the major pay-for compiler manufacturers... If memory serves Raisonance and IAR are the big two for the ARM platform.

You can even program code into your own hardware using the ST-Link hardware on the Discovery boards... which is a nice touch.

Finally, ST also provide some HAL libraries for their chips. While it's a good idea to read the hardware manual (or at least the pinmux section and the sections covering the peripherals you're using), you don't necessarily *have* to -- you can build simple prototypes using the demo code and HAL documentation... Take GCC, add your favourite text editor or IDE (vim, emacs, notepad++, whatever), STLINK and the HAL libs, and you've got a complete development system *including* onchip ICD.

-- Phil.
KILLspampiclistKILLspamspamphilpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

2011\11\12@122432 by Electron

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At 11.48 2011.11.12, you wrote:
>Hi,
>I started with PICs( made by Microchip) only recently. I bought
>PICkit3 and ICD 3 to be able
>to program PICs and make in-circuit debugging. But in-circuit
>debugging does not work for
>me as it should and Microchip was not still able to help.
>I even open a ticket but they were not able/willing to answer  it -
>the ticket remains "pending"
>and I doubt it will be ever answered .
>Shortly ,It does not seem to me that Microchip care about customers ,
>particularly the new
>customers as it should.
>
> So I am thinking about moving to ATMEL.

All right, then when you get problems with the AVR and ATMEL doesn't answer,
you'll switch back to the PIC. In a continuous loop. :-)

Seriously, I don't know if you're doing it only for a hobby or you wish to
make some products too.. but expecially in the latter case you better choose
your target platform basing on something else than the support you'd get
from the manufacturer. Let away that these things may change.

Good luck!

2011\11\12@135030 by Andre Abelian

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When you put the pic in debug mode after compiling it you need to program first before it is ready to use it.
just click program.
you can put check mark on debugger/settings/ you will see very bottom 2 places to put check mark. after
putting check mark when you compile it will program then it will be ready to debug. 
Opening a support ticket I do not like it either but working with microchip
for ever 20 year they are the best in the world. specially when you open a ticket saying you damaged the tool
and here is my serial number etc. they will ship it to you next day air. I never seen support like that.
specially free c compiler that does nice job. I use it over 6 months now only no optimization
witch I do not care. 
I know Atmel is good too but you can't say atmel is better or microchip is better.
all this is how you learned to use software and hardware.  I personally like pic24 and pic32 the most.
pic32 is really easy to use it.

Andre
   




________________________________
From: "RemoveMEjana1972TakeThisOuTspamcentrum.cz" <spamBeGonejana1972spamBeGonespamcentrum.cz>
To: TakeThisOuTpiclistEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 2:48 AM
Subject: Switching from Microchip to ATMEL

Hi,
I started with PICs( made by Microchip) only recently. I bought PICkit3 and ICD 3 to be able to program PICs and make in-circuit debugging. But in-circuit debugging does not work for me as it should and Microchip was not still able to help.
I even open a ticket but they were not able/willing to answer  it - the ticket remains "pending" and I doubt it will be ever answered .
Shortly ,It does not seem to me that Microchip care about customers , particularly the new customers as it should.

So I am thinking about moving to ATMEL.
Or  is here anyone  who switched to PIC from Atmel? :-)


My story is here with few details:

I bought adaptor with PIC16F648A-ICD to use it for the debugging code of PIC16F628A. Unfortunatelly, I can NOT still use PIC16F648A - ICD for the debugging .
When I try to debug the code, using PIC16F648A-ICD and ICD3 or PICkit3 I receive

ICD3Err0040: The target device is not ready for debugging.
Please check your configuration bit settings and program the device before proceeding.
Stepping target failed.

My Config is __CONFIG _CP_OFF & _LVP_OFF & _BOREN_OFF & _MCLRE_ON & _WDT_OFF &_PWRTE_OFF & _INTOSC_OSC_NOCLKOUT

I bought ICD3 and PIC16F648A-ICD from http://www.farnell.com/. An engineer from the Farnell confirmed the problem with ICD3 reporting:

"
Hi I have been trying to get a similar version of a Microchip header working. But not had any success with the ICD3 yet. All my attempts have failed. This may be an issue that Microchip need to know about. "

I think can spend my time on learning AVR instead
Your comment is welcome.
Thanks

2011\11\12@140238 by V G

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On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:48 AM, <RemoveMEjana1972spamTakeThisOuTcentrum.cz> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I never had any problems with Microchip. They were always helpful and
generous

2011\11\12@141622 by Martin Baker

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Could you please insert a topic tag so that the rules/filters will work, and
this stuff doesn't end up in my multi-layer spam traps?

Thanks, with interest in the thread and respect for all.

M

{Original Message removed}

2011\11\12@142144 by Dwayne Reid

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At 03:48 AM 11/12/2011, jana1972EraseMEspam.....centrum.cz wrote:
>Hi,
>I started with PICs( made by Microchip) only recently. I bought
>PICkit3 and ICD 3 to be able to program PICs and make in-circuit
>debugging. But in-circuit debugging does not work for me as it
>should and Microchip was not still able to help.  I even open a
>ticket but they were not able/willing to answer  it - the ticket
>remains "pending" and I doubt it will be ever answered .  Shortly
>,It does not seem to me that Microchip care about customers ,
>particularly the new customers as it should.
>
>  So I am thinking about moving to ATMEL.

What you really need to worry about Atmel is that they discontinue products and part numbers on a regular basis.  That can make it difficult to support old products and projects.  That said - a lot of people really like the AVR family.

I migrated from Motorola (now Freescale) a long time ago after I got burned with a sole-sourced part (Motorola 68HC705 family) becoming not available for 54 weeks because some large-scale manufacturer bought up all available and future stock of that part.  That meant that it would be 54 weeks before my order would be filled.

I simply couldn't wait that long and I bailed from Motorola.  Microchip was coming along very nicely back then and I was assured that being stuck without having availability of at least a pin-compatible chip would NEVER happen.

And, thus far, I've NEVER, ever been stuck trying to get product from Microchip.  On the very rare occasion, I've had to switch to a somewhat different but completely pin-compatible PIC that simply dropped into the target socket without any problems.  The worst I've ever had to do is add some configuration changes to the source code and re-compile for the new chip.

Because I am part of a very small company and because I have to worry about my products being able to be supported for a very long time, I choose my vendors very carefully.  That means using parts available from multiple sources whenever possible and being very picky about which sole-sourced vendors I use.  Microchip has NEVER let me down - that makes me a loyal customer.


Regarding your Microchip support ticket being 'pending' for several days - that happens to me too.  Be assured that Microchip WILL eventually get around to answering your ticket.

I brought this exact issue up with the big-wigs at Microchip when I attended Masters this past summer and they assured me that they are diligently trying to expand their support team so that those wait times don't happen.  I am hopeful that the support delays will get shorter.

In the mean time, keep posting questions both here and at the Microchip forums.  I suspect that you are missing an essential step but I don't recognize what that step is.  What I can tell you is that I use the debug headers with ICD2, ICD3, PICkit2, PICkit3 all the time and simply don't have any problem with using them.

Good luck with your project!

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <EraseMEdwaynerspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2011\11\12@142542 by jana1972

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Andre,
Thank you for your reply.


> When you put the pic in debug mode after compiling it you need to program first before it is ready to use it.
> just click program.
Sure. I programmed it before trying to debug

> I know Atmel is good too but you can't say atmel is better or microchip is better.
I do not know yet  if  Atmel is better or not, but my experience with Microchip is not good.
They sell product ( header/adaptor ) with PIC16F648A-ICD and if I needed help, they have not been able/willing to help.
As I wrote earlier, an engineer from the Farnell, UK ( that sells Microchip products and where I bought it)  reported the same problem too.




{Quote hidden}

> -

2011\11\12@145235 by Peter Johansson

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On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:48 AM,  <EraseMEjana1972spamspamspamBeGonecentrum.cz> wrote:

>  So I am thinking about moving to ATMEL.
>
> Or  is here anyone  who switched to PIC from Atmel? :-)

It sounds like you are a bit rash in the decision to switch, but if
you insist, consider the MSP430 and the LaunchPad.  You can have a
full programmer/debugger + 2 target chips shipped to your door (in
many parts of the world) for a mere  USD$4.30.  Put in a sample
request for two MSP430G2553's at the same time and you'll be busy for
weeks.

There are a many practical reasons not to use the MSP430, but the
architecture is very nice and it makes for an excellent "first MCU."

-p.

2011\11\12@155203 by Chris McSweeny

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On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Dwayne Reid <RemoveMEdwaynerKILLspamspamplanet.eon.net> wrote:
> What you really need to worry about Atmel is that they discontinue
> products and part numbers on a regular basis.  That can make it
> difficult to support old products and projects.  That said - a lot of
> people really like the AVR family.

Do they? Could you give me an example, because I'm struggling to think of one.

Chris

2011\11\12@160020 by V G

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On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Chris McSweeny <cpmcsweenySTOPspamspamspam_OUTgmail.com>wrote:

> Do they? Could you give me an example, because I'm struggling to think of
> one.
>

Arduino fanboys?

Best I could come up with

2011\11\12@171541 by Dwayne Reid

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At 01:52 PM 11/12/2011, Chris McSweeny wrote:
>On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Dwayne Reid <spamBeGonedwaynerSTOPspamspamEraseMEplanet.eon.net> wrote:
> >That said - a lot of people really like the AVR family.
>
>Do they? Could you give me an example, because I'm struggling to think of one.

Plenty 'o projects out on the web based on AVR.  But the most extreme example is one word: Arduino.  Yeah - the Arduino platform has become so popular that other uP manufacturers are targeting it, but the original design was based strictly on Atmel processors.

Now that Digilent (Microchip PIC32), NXP, others are targeting the Arduino user base, the rules are changing.  For the better, imho.

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <KILLspamdwaynerspamBeGonespamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2011\11\12@175734 by Chris McSweeny

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On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 10:15 PM, Dwayne Reid <EraseMEdwaynerspamEraseMEplanet.eon.net> wrote:
> Plenty 'o projects out on the web based on AVR.  But the most extreme
> example is one word: Arduino.  Yeah - the Arduino platform has become
> so popular that other uP manufacturers are targeting it, but the
> original design was based strictly on Atmel processors.

You should try not snipping the bit I was actually responding to!

Chris

2011\11\12@193724 by RussellMc

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Y'All

Please add a tag to the subject line.
Maybe [OT].
Maybe [AVR]
Not really PIC unless people recover their senses :-) (Yeah, I know).

I won't add one so that all who are seeing these posts will still see them.

I suggest [AVR] is probably best


     Russel

2011\11\13@052939 by Electron

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At 22.00 2011.11.12, you wrote:
>On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Chris McSweeny <@spam@cpmcsweeny@spam@spamspam_OUTgmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Do they? Could you give me an example, because I'm struggling to think of
>> one.
>>
>
>Arduino fanboys?
>
>Best I could come up with.


You are really arduinophobic. :D

Let 'em use it: if it's crap, we that don't use it will have less competition.
I don't see the problem! You should even be happy that more and more engineers
use Arduinos. ;-)

I'm too much of a "low level" guy to use it, I do mostly realtime-critical stuff
but I reckon that for simple tasks those that use such "easy" solutions aren't
dumb! I do respect those that choose a different tool "less man" than the one I
would choose.

I still like and prefer to talk to the metal directly, but maybe I'm just under
the NIH syndrome (always been). So maybe I'm dumber than them.. but who cares,
as long as we all have a choice, it's OK.

2011\11\13@165649 by V G

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On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:00 AM, Electron <spamBeGoneelectron2k4spamKILLspaminfinito.it> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

It's not the Arduino I hate (although that has many, many flaws too), it's
the hipster artsy "I'm so ironic" thick framed glasses audience that
generally surrounds it that I absolutely can not stand

2011\11\15@183729 by Bob Axtell

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On 11/12/2011 7:17 AM, PICdude wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2011\11\15@213628 by V G

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On 2011-11-15, at 6:37 PM, Bob Axtell <TakeThisOuTengineerKILLspamspamspamcotse.net> wrote:
> I Agree, PICDUDE.
>
> One BIG factor when choosing a chip is whether it can be obtained when
> you need it for PRODUCTION. One good clue is if samples can't be obtained..
> How can you use a chip in a product when the chip company can't even supply
> samples?
>
> MICROCHIP is the world LEADER in uP-based chips. In 20 years of interaction,
> MC never failed to sell me all the samples and production I could buy.
>
> I may be old but I'm not stupid. ATMEL is out.and always has been.
>
>
> --Bob Axtell
> --
Amen.

2011\11\16@013401 by Electron

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At 00.37 2011.11.16, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>>> --

2011\11\16@093027 by Jon Chandler

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Electron wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2011\11\16@102807 by Electron

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At 15.30 2011.11.16, you wrote:
>>> One BIG factor when choosing a chip is whether it can be obtained when
>>> you need it for PRODUCTION. One good clue is if samples can't be obtained.
>>> How can you use a chip in a product when the chip company can't even supply
>>> samples?
>>>
>>> MICROCHIP is the world LEADER in uP-based chips. In 20 years of interaction,
>>> MC never failed to sell me all the samples and production I could buy.
>>>
>>> I may be old but I'm not stupid. ATMEL is out.and always has been.
>>>
>>>
>>> --Bob Axtell
>> Well said, Bob. This is the reason why I never seriously looked at any Maxim
>> chips (dunno if things changed now, but they were unserious till some years
>> ago at least).
>>
>Not entirely right in Maxim's case.  Samples are usually easy to get.  
>But production quantities impossible!

Yes I got samples, but I was clearly talking about production, when I realized
that, I stopped requesting samples. It was totally pointless anyway, as I would
not have used them.

Got a lot of Microchip and TI samples ;) but I made good use of them in several
products (not mass scale production but hey, give me some time and luck :D ).

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