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'Regular FAQ pointer required?'
1997\08\09@020142 by Russell McMahon

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I have been reading this list for only a few weeks now and find it
interesting and potentially useful but, like Tjaart van der Walt, I note a
certain amount of repetitiveness of subject.

To some degree this is unavoidable but for much material this may be able
to be reduced by both having a FAQ or resource repositry and, most
importantly, having a regular message which points readers to it. To be
done well someone would need to edit threads and save the core material.
NO, I'm not volunteering :-). Any volunteers?

> From: Tjaart van der Walt <spam_OUTtjaartTakeThisOuTspamwasp.co.za>
> So this was the two-monthly virus warning... <G> We've just had the
monthly OS war, the two-weekly
> don't-reply-to-spam  discussion and the my-Windows-DLL-is
-bigger-than-yours, not to mention the usual
> gimme-your-code-for-I2C. Whatever happened to the
where-can-I-find-a-programmer-for-under $1.
> (Of course, someone will misread my message, and kindly direct me to such
a  programmer)

1997\08\10@073155 by Robert Lunn

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Russell McMahon wrote:

> To some degree this is unavoidable but for much material this may
> be able to be reduced by both having an FAQ or resource repository
> and, most importantly, having a regular message which points readers
> to it.

       There are a number of very good FAQ's (such as Andy Warren's)
       and many exhaustive despatch pages (such as Don McK's).  Both
       these can be tracked down within 60 seconds using any search
       engine.

       The problem is not the availability of this material, but
       rather people's laziness in finding it.

       If somebody can't be bothered going to Altavista and typing
       'microchip pic faq' why do you think they would be bothered
       following a pointer from this mailing list?

___Bob

1997\08\10@084021 by Mike

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At 09:21 PM 8/10/97 +0000, you wrote:

>        If somebody can't be bothered going to Altavista and typing
>        'microchip pic faq' why do you think they would be bothered
>        following a pointer from this mailing list?

Sorry Bob but your psychology is all wrong, new users may not understand
the use of search engines - if a pointer was supplied by the list server
as - say a two line suffix to all messages - are you saying that NOONE
would use it and you would rely on them using a search engine - in my
experience of risk assesment and constraint management such a pointer
would save a great deal of time for first time users and others who
have little time to wade through search engines ?

I'm going travelling soon and it would be great to point and click
on a single link to unsubscribe and check for any latest additions to
the FAQ. Isn't this far more efficient than complaining that people
wouldn't use such a facility ?

I think its a great move, a pointer to a FAQ and unsubscribe info :)

Rgds

mike
Perth, Western Australia


Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes
academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that
theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic.
                                                                      Massen

1997\08\10@091915 by Mike Smith

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---Original Message-----
From: Mike <.....erazmusKILLspamspam@spam@WANTREE.COM.AU>
To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sunday, 10 August 1997 22:11
Subject: Re: Regular FAQ pointer required?



{Quote hidden}

Links certainly have their uses - if someone here indicates a potentially
interesting site I'll use it (the link)

OTOH as a new user I discovered how to use search engines efficiently in my
first session or two - not that I'm especially brilliant, but when your
browser has a button on it marked search...

>
>I'm going travelling soon and it would be great to point and click

Leave your computer turned on, and set up a mailer that will log on every
day and retrieve mail.

>on a single link to unsubscribe and check for any latest additions to
>the FAQ. Isn't this far more efficient than complaining that people
>wouldn't use such a facility ?
>
>I think its a great move, a pointer to a FAQ and unsubscribe info :)

Save all the unsubscribe messages sent to the list itself. (maybe)

MikeS
<EraseMEmikesmith_ozspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTrelaymail.net>

1997\08\10@112703 by Mike

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At 10:50 PM 8/10/97 +0930, you wrote:

>>I'm going travelling soon and it would be great to point and click
>
>Leave your computer turned on, and set up a mailer that will log on every
>day and retrieve mail.

No way - I know how they make these switch mode supplies and how the
transistors are treated prior to and during assembly - I wouldn't risk
the fire hazard. I've seen one go up and that was enough. I'd rather
check my email at an internet cafe but, where I'm going ain't got one.

And its not worth buying a laptop just to check email - if I can get
a decent colour S/H 386 etc for around A$600 I might do it but, the
only efficient option is a clickable link on the last line of the
post to the Piclist, simple and efficient...

rgds

mike
Perth, Western Australia

1997\08\10@115437 by Mailing List Account

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On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Mike wrote:

> At 10:50 PM 8/10/97 +0930, you wrote:
>
> >>I'm going travelling soon and it would be great to point and click
> >
> >Leave your computer turned on, and set up a mailer that will log on every
> >day and retrieve mail.
>
> No way - I know how they make these switch mode supplies and how the
> transistors are treated prior to and during assembly - I wouldn't risk
> the fire hazard. I've seen one go up and that was enough. I'd rather
> check my email at an internet cafe but, where I'm going ain't got one.

       My computers average uptimes of at least a month, running Unix
of course, a Windows machine would probably crash out of bordem if left on
for an extended period of time.

--
Philip Lalone
Alpha-X Development - Professional Web Design (http://www.alphax.com)

1997\08\10@164100 by Andy Kunz

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>        My computers average uptimes of at least a month, running Unix
>of course, a Windows machine would probably crash out of bordem if left on
>for an extended period of time.

Some people say the stupidest things.

My one Windows machine stays up for months on end.  The other (the laptop)
is on as needed (usually 8-10 hours per day).  The other is off for weeks
on end.  My Linux machine gets reset regularly - at least once a week.

FWIW, my primary desktop just needed a new power supply.  A transistor blew
after 5+ years of being on almost continuously.  Anybody out there ever
hear of "inrush current" and the damage it does?!?!?!

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\08\10@212624 by blunn

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Bob Lunn
08/11/97 11:27 AM


{Quote hidden}

    Actually, according to my therapist my psychology is all right! ;)

    I wouldn't have thought we were talking about net newbies!  Is it
    unreasonable to expect a subscriber to this mailing list to know
    (or to find out!) how to use a tool as basic as a search engine?

    If someone is too lazy to understand the tools at hand why should I
    want to help them to be lazy?

    Of course, if they're so busy doing risk assesments and managing
    constraints that they have little time, then that's different.  I
    have tons of time, and will happily do their work for them!

___Bob

PS:  If you really want a suffix then it should be how something like

         For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing),
         send a message to "listservspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu" with one
         line of text: "help".

1997\08\10@233630 by Mailing List Account

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On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Andy Kunz wrote:

> >        My computers average uptimes of at least a month, running Unix
> >of course, a Windows machine would probably crash out of bordem if left on
> >for an extended period of time.
>
> Some people say the stupidest things.
>
> My one Windows machine stays up for months on end.  The other (the laptop)
> is on as needed (usually 8-10 hours per day).  The other is off for weeks
> on end.  My Linux machine gets reset regularly - at least once a week.

       My Windows 95 machines (Pentium 200, 64mb) have crashed from
clicking the start button.  If your Linux machine is crashing, you're an
idiot, and if you're reseting it manually that's irrelevant.  Linux is
hardly the most stable form of Unix but it's 10 times more stable than any
version of Windows.  I run OpenBSD and Linux, my machines are only off
when the power is out.

--
Philip Lalone
Alpha-X Development - Professional Web Design (http://www.alphax.com)

1997\08\11@001615 by Mike Smith

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---Original Message-----
From: Mike <@spam@erazmusKILLspamspamWANTREE.COM.AU>
To: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Monday, 11 August 1997 00:58
Subject: Re: Regular FAQ pointer required?



{Quote hidden}

The power supply in mine has been running for about 3 years, more or less
continuously.  Monitor is green, so it powers down and eliminates bulk of
the kWh.  IMO, if it was going to fail, would have happened in first few
months; a la bathtub curve.  All thats likely to happen now is a mains
fault, and I've got some heavy iron taking care of that...  One good idea is
to revers the fan and filter it, but make sure you clean the damn thing
monthly or less.

MikeS
<spamBeGonemikesmith_ozspamBeGonespamrelaymail.net>

1997\08\11@002648 by Mike Smith

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---Original Message-----
From: Andy Kunz <TakeThisOuTmtdesignEraseMEspamspam_OUTFAST.NET>
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Monday, 11 August 1997 06:11
Subject: Re: Regular FAQ pointer required?



>>        My computers average uptimes of at least a month, running Unix
>>of course, a Windows machine would probably crash out of bordem if left on
>>for an extended period of time.

>Some people say the stupidest things.

>My one Windows machine stays up for months on end.  The other (the laptop)
>is on as needed (usually 8-10 hours per day).  The other is off for weeks
>on end.  My Linux machine gets reset regularly - at least once a week.

Heh.  NT?  I have 95 stay up for days sometimes, but I throw all sorts of
bad things at it that make it crash.  (beta software, others and mine!)

>FWIW, my primary desktop just needed a new power supply.  A transistor blew
>after 5+ years of being on almost continuously.  Anybody out there ever
>hear of "inrush current" and the damage it does?!?!?!

Which is a good case for leaving it on, and using the reset switch instead.
Although I do power down for hardware changes. <g>

MikeS
<EraseMEmikesmith_ozspamrelaymail.net>

1997\08\11@034333 by David Gould

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> >        My computers average uptimes of at least a month, running Unix
> >of course, a Windows machine would probably crash out of bordem if left on
> >for an extended period of time.
>
> Some people say the stupidest things.
>
> My one Windows machine stays up for months on end.  The other (the laptop)
> is on as needed (usually 8-10 hours per day).  The other is off for weeks
> on end.  My Linux machine gets reset regularly - at least once a week.

Sorry, I know it's not on topic, but couldn't let this go.

My primary work desktop is a Linux machine that used to run NT. When it ran
NT I had to reboot every week to reclaim memory leaked by NT. Under Linux,
the last time I shut it down (to move to a new building) it had been up
158 days.

-dg

David Gould            RemoveMEdgEraseMEspamEraseMEillustra.com           510.628.3783 or 510.305.9468
Informix Software                       300 Lakeside Drive  Oakland, CA 94612
 Linux: The OS people choose without $200,000,000 of persuasion.

1997\08\11@082414 by 'Grif' w. keith griffith

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At 19:35 8/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Andy Kunz wrote:
>
>> >        My computers average uptimes of at least a month,
>> My one Windows machine stays up for months on end.  The other (the laptop)
>> is on as needed (usually 8-10 hours per day).  The other is off for weeks
>> on end.  My Linux machine gets reset regularly - at least once a week.
>
>        My Windows 95 machines (Pentium 200, 64mb) have crashed from
>clicking the start button.
--
Philip Lalone
Alpha-X Development - Professional Web Design (http://www.alphax.com)

Major snips and hacks

Ok Fine,,, now that we know windows is all bad

I've a laptop NT 4.0, an old Dell 90,  Win95 and an ALR 486 33 with 3.11
and one intell motherboard running an older version of Linux.

They all run fine,,, except for the laptop, none get turned off.  Except
for new programs being installed, written by people who think windows needs
an autoboot built into all applications (random) and the fact our network
manager can't seem to get Novell to run more than 2 weeks at a shot, my
machines don't crash.  I've had hardware failures, but just like the old
days, you just fix them, and the problem goes away.  New software is the
pits, and yes, the os shouldn't be that easily trashed by a program.  Just
treat the sucker like we did back in the old days of OS-8, and RDOS, test
the install, fix the problems and stuff seems to work just fine.  Now,
having said that, if you wanted to treat the things like a commadore 64 and
just get away with chucking a disk at the drive and having it work, well,,,
it ain't here yet.  (on my wish list!!!)



'Grif' N7IVS

1997\08\11@091457 by Mike Smith

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---Original Message-----
From: David Gould <RemoveMEdgspam_OUTspamKILLspamILLUSTRA.COM>
To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Monday, 11 August 1997 17:14
Subject: Re: Regular FAQ pointer required?



>> >        My computers average uptimes of at least a month, running Unix
>> >of course, a Windows machine would probably crash out of bordem if left
on
>> >for an extended period of time.
>>
>> Some people say the stupidest things.
>>
>> My one Windows machine stays up for months on end.  The other (the
laptop)
{Quote hidden}

Is Linux really the perfect solution in a GUI world?  I'm aware of
X-Windows, but does it have the diversity of apps that Windows has?
Does it *never* have problems when a badly behaved app crashes?  Somehow I
doubt this.  The original internet trojan horse took advantage of some holes
in unix.  Its unreasonable to expect that all bugs in unix have been fixed -
just like its unreasonable to expect this in NT - a much newer os.  I expect
that when NT reaches the current age of unix, the kind of problems we are
experiencing will be fixed (and replaced with newer, more subtle ones! <g>)

MikeS
<RemoveMEmikesmith_ozKILLspamspamrelaymail.net>

1997\08\11@105622 by Mailing List Account

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On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Mike Smith wrote:

> Is Linux really the perfect solution in a GUI world?  I'm aware of
> X-Windows, but does it have the diversity of apps that Windows has?
> Does it *never* have problems when a badly behaved app crashes?  Somehow I
> doubt this.  The original internet trojan horse took advantage of some holes
> in unix.  Its unreasonable to expect that all bugs in unix have been fixed -
> just like its unreasonable to expect this in NT - a much newer os.  I expect
> that when NT reaches the current age of unix, the kind of problems we are
> experiencing will be fixed (and replaced with newer, more subtle ones! <g>)

       X is good enough for NASA.  I can't say the apps are as pretty and
user friendly as Windows apps, it's definately not for everyone.  With
Windows, people have come to live with and expect their programs to crash.
Microsoft makes great word processors, but they don't care if they crash,
or if the OS allows them to.  New versions mean more money.

       Sure, give Microsoft plenty of time to get their operating systems
working right, in the mean time kids are making Unix clones that are much
more stable and secure than Windows NT.

Maybe MS will have better luck on the Mac :)

--
Philip Lalone
Alpha-X Development

1997\08\11@110241 by Engineering Department

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Absolutely on point!  Mike's right a FAQ pointer would be a big
help to trim the cycle of appropriate but repetitious threads.

Cheers

Win Wiencke
Image Logic Corporation

----------
{Quote hidden}

<snip>
> I think its a great move, a pointer to a FAQ and unsubscribe info :)

1997\08\11@125338 by Mike

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At 10:10 AM 8/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Absolutely on point!  Mike's right a FAQ pointer would be a big
>help to trim the cycle of appropriate but repetitious threads.
>
>Cheers
>
>Win Wiencke
>Image Logic Corporation

Thanks Win, I wonder how many of those 'please unsubscribe' messages
and their occasional expletives AND all those that complain back to the
list in complaint and retaliation would taper off if the listserver could
add a nice short to the point unsubscribe URL and/or FAQ ?

I'd bet it might be as much as 50% !

rgds

Mike
Perth, Western Australia

1997\08\11@184222 by Martin R. Green

picon face
I also subscribe to the PowerBuilder PB-L list, and EVERY message that goes
through that server has a 2 line "signature" appended that is used to
specify the "no job postings" rule of that list.  This listserver could do
the same, but use one line to reference the FAQ, and the 2nd to instruct
readers how to unsubscribe.

JM2CW - Martin R. Green
elimarSTOPspamspamspam_OUTbigfoot.com

----------
From:   Mike[SMTP:spamBeGoneerazmusSTOPspamspamEraseMEWANTREE.COM.AU]
Sent:   Monday, August 11, 1997 12:53 PM
To:     KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: Regular FAQ pointer required?

At 10:10 AM 8/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Absolutely on point!  Mike's right a FAQ pointer would be a big
>help to trim the cycle of appropriate but repetitious threads.
>
>Cheers
>
>Win Wiencke
>Image Logic Corporation

Thanks Win, I wonder how many of those 'please unsubscribe' messages
and their occasional expletives AND all those that complain back to the
list in complaint and retaliation would taper off if the listserver could
add a nice short to the point unsubscribe URL and/or FAQ ?

I'd bet it might be as much as 50% !

rgds

Mike
Perth, Western Australia

1997\08\11@190500 by David Gould

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mikesmith_oz@relaymail.net writes:
> >NT I had to reboot every week to reclaim memory leaked by NT. Under Linux,
> >the last time I shut it down (to move to a new building) it had been up
> >158 days.
...
> Is Linux really the perfect solution in a GUI world?  I'm aware of

No. Who said it was?

> X-Windows, but does it have the diversity of apps that Windows has?

No. Who said it does? On the other hand, it is remotable. That is, right now
I have windows open on my desktop from 7 different hosts on our network and
as far as I can tell they are all "local".

> Does it *never* have problems when a badly behaved app crashes?  Somehow I

Yes. Obviously, *never* is hyperbole, but I have never observed this in
four years of daily Linux use. If it did occur it would be rightly regarded
as an OS bug. In four years, I have had one hang due to a bad ethernet card
locking the bus. Other than that, I have had no OS level problems.

> doubt this.  The original internet trojan horse took advantage of some holes

The internet worm is famous. Partly because it was a big deal, but largely
because it was unusual. Compare with other systems and other viruses.
By and large there is no such thing as a unix "anti-virus" software even
though the majority of internet hosts run some flavor of unix.

> in unix.  Its unreasonable to expect that all bugs in unix have been fixed -

Of course.

> just like its unreasonable to expect this in NT - a much newer os.  I expect

Unix has had 15 years of field testing and bugfixing. NT hasn't. Is this
supposed to be an NT advantage?

> that when NT reaches the current age of unix, the kind of problems we are
> experiencing will be fixed (and replaced with newer, more subtle ones! <g>)

If the the recent spate of Explorer and ActiveX security bugs is any
indication, the future is now, at least "newer, more subtle" bugwise.


If you would like to discuss this further, please reply privately not to
the list as it really is off topic.

Thanks,

-dg

David Gould            EraseMEdgspamEraseMEillustra.com           510.628.3783 or 510.305.9468
Informix Software                       300 Lakeside Drive  Oakland, CA 94612
Q: If you could get in the time machine and go back and change one thing
that's happened in the history of computing, what would it be?
A: "I would have written a BASIC interpreter for the first PCs".
                                   -- Bob Metcalfe, inventor of Ethernet

1997\08\12@132004 by Eric van Es

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Martin R. Green wrote:
>
> I also subscribe to the PowerBuilder PB-L list, and EVERY message that goes
> through that server has a 2 line "signature" appended that is used to
> specify the "no job postings" rule of that list.  This listserver could do
> the same, but use one line to reference the FAQ, and the 2nd to instruct
> readers how to unsubscribe.
>
> JM2CW - Martin R. Green
> @spam@elimar@spam@spamspam_OUTbigfoot.com
OK then - shall we vote for this?

I vote : "aye"

lets get this over with <please?>
--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South-Africa
Mailto:spamBeGonevanesspamKILLspamilink.nis.za | WWW: http://www.nis.za/~vanes/
TEMPORARY/HOLIDAY ACCOMMODATION? http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

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