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PICList Thread
'Read protected PIC'
1999\03\09@100929 by Peter Seyringer

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How can i read out the code from a proteted PIC 16F84 ?

Peter
---
Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net

1999\03\09@101816 by ryan pogge

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face
I was also wondering this, I have seen a way to do it on a
C84 but not the F84...
it would be realy nice.... have my program on a PIC for
example and lost the original program in a hard drisk
failure.

thats just one example of the many legit reasons for it.

anyway I belive there is something on the picbasic mailing
list FTP....
someone remind me of the address maybe
ftp.quenos.net/picbasic-l/
???
sorry if thats a non working address people...
maybee someone else knows.


>How can i read out the code from a proteted PIC 16F84 ?
>
>Peter
>---
>Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net
>

1999\03\09@102213 by Wolfgang Kynast

picon face
PS> How can i read out the code from a proteted PIC 16F84 ?

I guess nobody on this list will help you to steal code.
And don't tell us that you have lost the source code, we
have heard that just too often.

Regards,
Wolfgang
--
PIC links:
http://people.frankfurt.netsurf.de/wky/pic.htm

1999\03\09@102835 by Ralph Stickley

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face
Why don't you try this S*** on the Micro-chip web board ??
-------
Unprotecting 16F84 (2 of 2), Read 48 times
Conf:
     Other PICmicro topics
From:
     Developer Moderator (spam_OUTtech.supportTakeThisOuTspammicrochip.com)
Date:
     Tuesday, February 16, 1999 08:00 AM

Protection hacking is not a subject suitable for this conference. You
will be removed from this conference if you attempt to pursue this
matter.

Code protection is a feature of PICmicros to secure intellectual
property and to protect designs, as well as to provide security for
applications. Use of this conference is a privilege that will be revoked
if criminal activities are discussed.
----------
Peter Seyringer wrote:
>
> How can i read out the code from a proteted PIC 16F84 ?
>
> Peter
> ---
> Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net


You think that code protection should be ill-legal too ? Maybe some
poor student needs to study this code...awwww... should they be deprived??

Hey, I was just borrowing a *COPY*...well, duh....all Software is a COPY!!!

Any logical justification for stealing software does not excuse the
fact that you 'stole' it...we can not legislate morality, but lashings
with a wet noodle will be forth comming!

Man, is everybody begging for a moderated PIC list or what???

Somebody hose me down, I'm burning up my keyboard here....
Ralph

"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

1999\03\09@110617 by Peter Seyringer

picon face
This text i found in a newsgroup


PIC16C84 Security

It has been widely claimed that the code security of the Microchip
PIC16C84 can be easily defeated. I do not have any personal experience with this
,
but is is of
sufficient concern that I want to pass along a message which David Tait
sent to the PIC mailing list. As you can read for yourself, David hasn't tried
it either, but he
forwarded details from a source who prefers to remain anonymous.


Date:         Wed, 26 Apr 1995 18:17:57 +0100
Reply-To: pic microcontroller discussion list
Sender: pic microcontroller discussion list
From: David Tait
Subject:      Re: Code protect
To: Multiple recipients of list PICLIST
In-Reply-To:   from "Bryan Crotaz" at Apr 25, 95 12:38:58 pm

I think a null message escaped - sorry about that.

Anyway, I'm glad the code protect topic has come up again because it will
let me get this off my chest - sorry it's so long.

The security of the PIC code protection mechanism has been discussed
many times before.  It has even been discussed on the Microchip BBS:
in Message 61000 of the "Relablty" SIG David Wilkie of Microchip
ends one such thread with the soothing: "I assure you that the code is
safe once the protection bit is activated."

The vulnerability of the 16C84 is of particular concern. The 16C84 is
often used in smart cards issued by the satellite TV industry.  These
cards are intended to permit access to encrypted TV channels, and
clearly there is a lot of interest in being able to clone the cards
thereby avoiding payment to the TV providers.  This means the
protection topic is endlessly discussed in newsgroups like
alt.satellite.tv.europe.  Every so often this newsgroup carries
adverts for hardware which is claimed to be capable of reading
protected PICs.  I have always been skeptical of these claims.  I have
changed my mind.

The fact that I provide information on a homebrew 16C84 programmer
means that I often get asked whether I know how to read protected
PICs.  Recently an interesting situation arose.  I received yet
another request for this information at exactly the same time that
someone happened to send me details of a technique claimed to
unprotect PICs.  I simply passed these on from one correspondent to
the other.  Much to my surprise the requester later wrote back to say
the technique worked (but he destroyed 3 PICs in the attempt).  The
originator of the method is happy for the information to be placed in
the public domain although he wants to remain anonymous for some
reason.  So for the benefit of PICLIST readers (and I know that
includes Microchip employees) here are his instructions more or less
verbatim (although the description is tied to his programmer the other
guy used a variant of mine):


> 1. I use the PIC16 programmer from Farnell Components (part no.
459-471).
{Quote hidden}

I must admit it looks like a surefire way to destroy PICs to me so I
haven't tried it myself even though the originator claims that he has
never fried a 16C84 this way.  I realise the fact that I have never
tried it myself means that all this is just hearsay, but although
there are some points left to the imagination, the description is
explicit enough to be tested by those worried by such things.

I have no idea whether the method is related to Bela Gebles
<.....100324.526KILLspamspam@spam@compuserve.com> technique, but if you think this info is
worth GBP1000, then like him, I'll be happy to give you my bank
account details :-)  On the other hand if you think it's all hogwash,
then I'm sorry to have wasted your time.

David


---
Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net

1999\03\09@122823 by Lester Wilson

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Many of you on the list are aware of our company. Crownhill Associates
Limited. We both sell programmers and Produce PIC based solutions on a
commercial basis.

It is not in any one's interest for the security of any protected device to
be easily compromised. We feel that it is in the best interests of all
concerned to be aware of the weaknesses of certain devices. These weaknesses
can be an advantage in certain conditions.

We stock and use a programmer that is designed to take advantage of some of
these weaknesses. Specifically it provides us with the ability to erase the
code protection on a code protected Window device !

Extracted from the user manual:-

Erasing EPROM-based Device

Many EPROM- based devices (such as /JW PicMicro devices or Windowed 27Cxxx
EPROMs) can be erased by the Ultra-Violet Eraser. Usually you put your chip
under the lamp
then wait for some time you estimate experimentally and then put the chip
into the
programmer and perform blank check. If the chip isnât erased yet you repeat
the procedure
from the very beginning. Certainly you can just leave the chip under the
eraser for a long time
to be sure it is completely erased. But who wants to wait for 2-3 times more
time that it is
really necessary? Besides long erasing process may lead to lower
erasing/programming
cycles limit for your valuable chips. The PicProg can help you to perform
Ultra-Violet Erasing
in the most effective way.

You just install the target device into PicProgâs ZIF-socket and put your
Ultra-Violet lamp over
it (sure you need the Lamp with an appropriate design to do so). Then you
click on the Erase
button or press F7 key. The PicProg quickly blank checks the device at the
minimum voltage
limit (see Setting Voltage Limits). If the device isnât blank the programmer
switches all the
socketâs pins to ground (helps to avoid occasional ESD spikes) and goes to
idle mode for a
certain time (60 seconds by default)

While waiting PicProg shows the time from the beginning of the process in
status line. When
the defined time runs out (or you press Enter key) PicProg blank checks the
device again and
repeats this procedure until the device appears to be blank. Then PicProg
aborts the mode,
makes a sound alarm and shows the total erasing time in its status line. You
can also abort
the erasing procedure at any time by pressing Esc key).

As you see the erasing process becomes completely automatic (you can perform
it in the
background) and you wait exactly as long as it needs for your device to be
properly erased.
Note: You shouldnât set Vdd min much lower than your target system operation
voltage low
limit as it wastes your valuable chipâs resources.

Erasing Code Protection for PIC16C(F)8x
If you programmed some code into one of the PIC16C(F)8x chips with the Code
Protection
enabled and later lost your source file you generally canât read the chipâs
contents back.
PicProg can help you erase the Code Protection bits without erasing the
other cells thus
allowing restore the code you miss. The following procedure should be
performed:

á Insert code-protected PIC16C(F)8x into PicProgâs ZIF-socket;

á Click on the Erase button while holding down the Control key or press
Control+F7 keys;

á PicProg performs code-protection removal procedure (it can be quite
lengthy depending
on the chip) and reports its results in the status line;

á If the PicProg succeeded you can read the device back to software buffer
(see Reading
Device);

Note: While reading unprotected device you should set Vdd read to 2.0V (see
Setting Voltage
Limits).

á If PicProg fails to erase Code Protection you can repeat the previous
steps two or three
times.

1999\03\09@124311 by Adam Bryant

picon face
Oh man, and just when we were about to wrap up the cracked software
thread AGAIN.

Let me see if I can short circuit the inevitable thread that will result
from this posting.  You can erase this PIC and reuse it for another
application.  There are probably ways to circumvent the code protection
on a 16F84 (although Microchip improved the code protection considerably
over the 16C84).  However, unless you have a legitimate reason for
needing to do so (which you should have posted along with the query) you
are a pirate, and members of this list will not give you the time of day,
let alone help you to steal someone elses hard work.

Hope I didn't step on any toes, but I get my dander up when someones
SEEMS to be trying to steal anothers hard work.

Adam Bryant (age 0x23)
abryantspamKILLspampeaktech.com (work)
.....adamdbKILLspamspam.....juno.com (home)
Parker, CO, USA
Robotics, RC Airplanes, anything using a PIC

On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:58:35 +0100 Peter Seyringer
<EraseMEPeter_Seyringerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTGMX.NET> writes:
>How can i read out the code from a proteted PIC 16F84 ?
>
>Peter
>---
>Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net
>

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1999\03\09@163511 by Eduardo R.

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face
>>Extracted from the user manual:-

>>Erasing EPROM-based Device

>>....Besides long erasing process may lead to lower erasing/programming
cycles limit

>> for your valuable chips.


AFAIK is the programming process what "wears" the chip not the erasing
cicle.....I got confused at this point because I heard before that you may
let the PICs in the eraser even for weeks without harming them at all.


Eduardo Rivera







At 05:19 PM 3/9/99 -0000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\10@021350 by David Duffy

flavicon
face
Don't be too quick to judge others wanting to read a protected PIC.
I had a situation a few years ago where I had a HDD die one day and
stupidly had no backup copies of my recent PIC source. I even tried
to get the data retreived off the dead HDD and was quoted AUD$2000.
I gave them the go-ahead but it was unsuccessful. (didn't charge me)
After a fair amount of swearing, I went out & did what I should have
done earlier & bought a 420MB tape backup drive. The I re-wrote the
lost code and BACKED IT UP like I should have always done. Since
then, I ALWAYS do a daily & monthly backup. (LS120's these days)
Loosing code CAN happen but SHOULDN'T happen. I found that when
I re-wrote the code I did a better job anyway !  Oh well, it's easy to be
wise in hindsight eh ?  That's my AUD$0.02 worth for now.  :-)
Regards...

___________________________________
David Duffy               Audio Visual Devices
Ph: +61 7 38210362   Fax +61 7 38210281
AVDspamspam_OUTuq.net.au  Unit 8, 9-11 Trade Street
Cleveland, Qld, 4163, Australia.
___________________________________

1999\03\10@070028 by D. Schouten

picon face
>Oh man, and just when we were about to wrap up the cracked software
>thread AGAIN.
>
>Let me see if I can short circuit the inevitable thread that will
result
>from this posting.  You can erase this PIC and reuse it for another
>application.  There are probably ways to circumvent the code
protection
>on a 16F84 (although Microchip improved the code protection
considerably
>over the 16C84).  However, unless you have a legitimate reason for
>needing to do so (which you should have posted along with the query)
you
>are a pirate, and members of this list will not give you the time of
day,
>let alone help you to steal someone elses hard work.
>
>Hope I didn't step on any toes, but I get my dander up when someones
>SEEMS to be trying to steal anothers hard work.

Me too!

Daniel...

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