Post by thread:Pseudo-random number generation.

Hello, exactly yesterday I have finished my hardware true (not pseudo) random number generator. It outputs a random bit sequence in CMOS logic. If interested, I can post the schematic (in ASCII, one page). I guess, you should connect the output to the T0CKI, and sample it - say - in every 1 msec. Regards, Imre On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, German wrote: {Quote hidden}> Hi! I need to generate three bytes of pseudo-random numbers for > an app. I'm working on that features PIC12C508 and 509. > Then I need to count the number of ones present on those 24 bits. > Any cool ideas on solving any of these tasks are welcome! > > Thanks a lot! > ------------------------------------ > netQ <netquakeKILLspaminnocent.com> > http://virtuaweb.com/picprog > "Home of amateur PIC programmers..." > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > mQCNAzV38BkAAAEEALfWv9j3f+tZ+z2IW+2o9Ebx4bUGnHjHPqIe0a6yVKawaeV/ > Y4I6L2/A0ddbVMG8+qJ0MvHNkr3DzYkpW+hTl9zAzXkKBdZ3GA5bbvot7entl/O2 > YDtRWUV730koxBo5iFFUbJH5kbmkox+h3znj34zPnZNWzNaqOAwol3wABfBNAAUT > tBxOZXRRIDxuZXRxdWFrZUBpbm5vY2VudC5jb20+ > =0bVU > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > >

I would be interested in it! -Adam root wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Hello, > > exactly yesterday I have finished my hardware true (not pseudo) random > number generator. It outputs a random bit sequence in CMOS logic. If > interested, I can post the schematic (in ASCII, one page). I guess, you > should connect the output to the T0CKI, and sample it - say - in every 1 > msec. > > Regards, > Imre > > On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, German wrote: > > > Hi! I need to generate three bytes of pseudo-random numbers for > > an app. I'm working on that features PIC12C508 and 509. > > Then I need to count the number of ones present on those 24 bits. > > Any cool ideas on solving any of these tasks are welcome! > > > > Thanks a lot! > > ------------------------------------ > > netQ <.....netquakeKILLspam.....innocent.com> > > http://virtuaweb.com/picprog > > "Home of amateur PIC programmers..." > > > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > Version: 2.6.2 > > > > mQCNAzV38BkAAAEEALfWv9j3f+tZ+z2IW+2o9Ebx4bUGnHjHPqIe0a6yVKawaeV/ > > Y4I6L2/A0ddbVMG8+qJ0MvHNkr3DzYkpW+hTl9zAzXkKBdZ3GA5bbvot7entl/O2 > > YDtRWUV730koxBo5iFFUbJH5kbmkox+h3znj34zPnZNWzNaqOAwol3wABfBNAAUT > > tBxOZXRRIDxuZXRxdWFrZUBpbm5vY2VudC5jb20+ > > =0bVU > > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > > >

part 0 1178 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream;-----Mensaje original----- De: German <netquakespam_OUTINNOCENT.COM> Para: @spam@PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Fecha: Lunes 30 de Agosto de 1999 21:16 p.m. Asunto: Pseudo-random number generation. Hi! I need to generate three bytes of pseudo-random numbers for an app. I'm working on that features PIC12C508 and 509. Then I need to count the number of ones present on those 24 bits. Any cool ideas on solving any of these tasks are welcome! Thanks a lot! ------------------------------------ netQ <RemoveMEnetquakeTakeThisOuTinnocent.com> http://virtuaweb.com/picprog "Home of amateur PIC programmers..." -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzV38BkAAAEEALfWv9j3f+tZ+z2IW+2o9Ebx4bUGnHjHPqIe0a6yVKawaeV/ Y4I6L2/A0ddbVMG8+qJ0MvHNkr3DzYkpW+hTl9zAzXkKBdZ3GA5bbvot7entl/O2 YDtRWUV730koxBo5iFFUbJH5kbmkox+h3znj34zPnZNWzNaqOAwol3wABfBNAAUT tBxOZXRRIDxuZXRxdWFrZUBpbm5vY2VudC5jb20+ =0bVU -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="cheksum1.asm" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="cheksum1.asm" Attachment converted: wonderland:cheksum1.asm (????/----) (0000BEA0)

Hi, it is not done yet but it is planned. Regards, Imre On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Robert A. LaBudde wrote: {Quote hidden}> At 10:09 AM 8/31/99 +0200, Imre wrote: > >exactly yesterday I have finished my hardware true (not pseudo) random > >number generator. It outputs a random bit sequence in CMOS logic. If > >interested, I can post the schematic (in ASCII, one page). I guess, you > >should connect the output to the T0CKI, and sample it - say - in every 1 > >msec. > > I for one would be interested. Have you done a power spectrum analysis to > see how 'true' you hardware is at generating 'white' noise? > > > ================================================================ > Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS e-mail: TakeThisOuTralEraseMEspam_OUTlcfltd.com > Least Cost Formulations, Ltd. URL: http://lcfltd.com/ > 824 Timberlake Drive Tel: 757-467-0954 > Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239 Fax: 757-467-2947 > > "Vere scire est per causae scire" > ================================================================ > >

At 09:13 AM 9/1/99 +0200, Imre wrote: {Quote hidden}> White noise generator, design by dr. Imre Bartfai, 8/30/1999 > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------- Vdd > | 220k 220k 5V > | +---\/\/\---+ +---\/\/\---+------+ > | | | | | | > | Ge | |\ | | +------+ \ > | EFT317 PNP +-----+----|- \ | | | / 220k > | C | | | >-+----| |----+ | |\ \ > | |/ \ +-------|+ / 47n | +-----|- \ | > +--B| 220k / | | |/ | | | >--+ > |\ \ | | 1/2 LM358 +----------|+ / | > |E | | | | | |/ \ > +----| |----+--+ + + + / 47k > | 47n | | | | 1/2 LM358 \ > \ \ \ \ \ | > 4k7 / 1M / / 2k2 1M / / 2k2 + out > \ \ \ \ \ > | | | | | > +-----------+-----+-----------------------+----+---------------- Vss Where does the transistor collector go? Presumably to Vdd? (Unconnected as shown.) ================================================================ Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS e-mail: RemoveMEralTakeThisOuTlcfltd.com Least Cost Formulations, Ltd. URL: http://lcfltd.com/ 824 Timberlake Drive Tel: 757-467-0954 Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239 Fax: 757-467-2947 "Vere scire est per causae scire" ================================================================

{Quote hidden}> At 09:13 AM 9/1/99 +0200, Imre wrote: > > White noise generator, design by dr. Imre Bartfai, 8/30/1999 > > > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vdd > > | 220k 220k > 5V > > | +---\/\/\---+ +---\/\/\---+------+ > > | | | | | | > > | Ge | |\ | | +------+ \ > > | EFT317 PNP +-----+----|- \ | | | / > 220k > > | C | | | >-+----| |----+ | |\ \ > > | |/ \ +-------|+ / 47n | +-----|- \ | > > +--B| 220k / | | |/ | | | >--+ > > |\ \ | | 1/2 LM358 +----------|+ / | > > |E | | | | | |/ \ > > +----| |----+--+ + + + / > 47k > > | 47n | | | | 1/2 LM358 \ > > \ \ \ \ \ | > > 4k7 / 1M / / 2k2 1M / / 2k2 + out > > \ \ \ \ \ > > | | | | | > > +-----------+-----+-----------------------+----+---------------- > Vss > Robert A. LaBudde wrote: > Where does the transistor collector go? Presumably to Vdd? (Unconnected as > shown.) > The collector is not connected. This circuit relies on the reverse breakdown of the Base-Emitter junction which produces a lot of noise. More or less the same as a zener diode, which can also be very noisy, although a transistor is usually worse (or better depending on your point of view). Regards Mike Rigby-Jones

Hej Michael Rigby-Jones. Tack fšr ditt meddelande 11:24 1999-09-01 +0100 enligt nedan: {Quote hidden}> > At 09:13 AM 9/1/99 +0200, Imre wrote: > > > White noise generator, design by dr. Imre Bartfai, 8/30/1999 > > > > > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Vdd > > > | 220k 220k > > 5V > > > | +---\/\/\---+ +---\/\/\---+------+ > > > | | | | | | > > > | Ge | |\ | | +------+ \ > > > | EFT317 PNP +-----+----|- \ | | | / > > 220k > > > | C | | | >-+----| |----+ | |\ \ > > > | |/ \ +-------|+ / 47n | +-----|- \ | > > > +--B| 220k / | | |/ | | | >--+ > > > |\ \ | | 1/2 LM358 +----------|+ / | > > > |E | | | | | |/ \ > > > +----| |----+--+ + + + / > > 47k > > > | 47n | | | | 1/2 LM358 \ > > > \ \ \ \ \ | > > > 4k7 / 1M / / 2k2 1M / / 2k2 + out > > > \ \ \ \ \ > > > | | | | | > > > +-----------+-----+-----------------------+----+---------------- > > Vss > > > Robert A. LaBudde wrote: > > > Where does the transistor collector go? Presumably to Vdd? (Unconnected as > > shown.) > > >The collector is not connected. This circuit relies on the reverse >breakdown of the Base-Emitter junction which produces a lot of noise. More >or less the same as a zener diode, which can also be very noisy, although a >transistor is usually worse (or better depending on your point of view). > >Regards > >Mike Rigby-Jones Suggestion, untested: I would think that connecting a cap between B and Vss would increase the noise output. (making a "stamp-off" pointfor the transistor noise voltage with much lower impedance than only the 220k resistor) The idea is to in next step reduce the amplifier to just one opamp stage. Regards /Morgan Morgans Reglerteknik, HŠllekŒs, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN tel +46(0)414-446620, fax -70331, mrtEraseME.....iname.com

For most transistors it takes around 7 volts to break down the reverse emitter/base junction so this circuit may not work at 5 volts. Maybe you can substitute a low voltage zener for the transistor. Maris At 09:13 AM 9/1/99 +0200, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>Hi, >as more people wished, here is the true h/w random number generator: > > White noise generator, design by dr. Imre Bartfai, 8/30/1999 > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------- Vdd > | 220k 220k 5V > | +---\/\/\---+ +---\/\/\---+------+ > | | | | | | > | Ge | |\ | | +------+ \ > | EFT317 PNP +-----+----|- \ | | | / 220k > | C | | | >-+----| |----+ | |\ \ > | |/ \ +-------|+ / 47n | +-----|- \ | > +--B| 220k / | | |/ | | | >--+ > |\ \ | | 1/2 LM358 +----------|+ / | > |E | | | | | |/ \ > +----| |----+--+ + + + / 47k > | 47n | | | | 1/2 LM358 \ > \ \ \ \ \ | > 4k7 / 1M / / 2k2 1M / / 2k2 + out > \ \ \ \ \ > | | | | | > +-----------+-----+-----------------------+----+---------------- Vss > > Standard TTL can not be driven, but CMOS (and maybe LS) are o.k. > The power supply must be filtered thoroughly due to the high gain! > >Regards, >Imre > >

This is a Germanium transistor... -----Original Message----- From: Maris <EraseMEmarisTIAC.NET> To: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU <RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Pseudo-random number generation. {Quote hidden}>For most transistors it takes around 7 volts to break down the reverse >emitter/base junction so this circuit may not work at 5 volts. Maybe you >can substitute a low voltage zener for the transistor. >Maris > > >At 09:13 AM 9/1/99 +0200, you wrote: >>Hi, >>as more people wished, here is the true h/w random number generator: >> >> White noise generator, design by dr. Imre Bartfai, 8/30/1999 >> >> +--------------------------------------------------------------------- Vdd {Quote hidden}>> | 220k 220k 5V >> | +---\/\/\---+ +---\/\/\---+------+ >> | | | | | | >> | Ge | |\ | | +------+ \ >> | EFT317 PNP +-----+----|- \ | | | / 220k >> | C | | | >-+----| |----+ | |\ \ >> | |/ \ +-------|+ / 47n | +-----|- \ | >> +--B| 220k / | | |/ | | | >--+ >> |\ \ | | 1/2 LM358 +----------|+ / | >> |E | | | | | |/ \ >> +----| |----+--+ + + + / 47k >> | 47n | | | | 1/2 LM358 \ >> \ \ \ \ \ | >> 4k7 / 1M / / 2k2 1M / / 2k2 + out >> \ \ \ \ \ >> | | | | | >> +-----------+-----+-----------------------+----+---------------- Vss >> >> Standard TTL can not be driven, but CMOS (and maybe LS) are o.k. >> The power supply must be filtered thoroughly due to the high gain! >> >>Regards, >>Imre >> >>

part 0 5903 bytes content-type:application/x-unknown-content-type-PFE32; name=noise509.asm (decoded 7bit) Nino Code follows... ; ; Pseudorandom digital white noise generator for PIC series. ; ; PIC12C508 version written April 7th, 1997 by Scott Rider. ; Questions/comment to RemoveMEchipTakeThisOuTspamaeug.org ; ; PIC12C509 modified version by Antonio L. Benci. 22/03/1999. ; ; This program uses Microchip assembler mnemonics and the Microchip ; MPASM assembler (http://www.microchip.com/). Default config options ; are set in the __FUSES line below: MCLRE off, CP off, WDT off, OSC=INTRC. ; ; _______ _______ ; | \/ | ; (+5V) Vdd --+ 1 8 +-- Vss (GND) ; | | 470 ; X1/CLKI/GP5 --+ 2 7 +-- GP0 (audio out) --/\/\/-- (spkr) ; (not used) | | | 10K 1uF ; X2/CLKO/GP4 --+ 3 6 +-- GP1 --/\/\/--|(-- (line) ; (swt input) | | (swt input) ; GP3/!MCLR --+ 4 5 +-- GP2 ; (swt input) | (PIC12C508) | (swt input) ; +----------------+ ; ; This program generates a continuous stream of white noise through a ; speaker connected (via a 470-ohm series resistor) to pin GP0 of a ; PIC12C509. It demonstrates an easy method for generating a seemingly ; random stream of bits. Hardware folks will probably recognize it as the ; tapped shift register technique covered in the CMOS Cookbook by Don ; Lancaster. ; ; Adapted from the original PIC16C54 (Parallax) version by Scott Edwards. ; ;########################################################################## ; ; Programmable noise weighting added by A L Benci 22/03/1999 ; ; GP1..GP4 are connected to a dip switch which the user can use to select ; 'textures' of 2 to 30. A zero value skips the function. ; ; list p=12c509 radix dec include "p12c509.inc" __FUSES _MCLRE_OFF &_CP_OFF & _WDT_OFF & _IntRC_OSC ;Internal osc. cblock 0x07 ;Variables i ;Loop counter x ;Scratch y ;Scratch zz ;Scratch sr0 ;32 bits of shift register sr1 sr2 sr3 ;/ endc org 0x0 ; ; PIC12C509 cold starts at 03FFF (where it loads a factory-programmed ; internal osc. calibrate value). It then rolls over to 0x0. ; movwf OSCCAL goto start ; ; Subroutines in 12-bit PIC series must go on bottom page of ROM. ; wait loop decfsz i,F goto loop retlw 0 ; ; Main code area traditionally starts at 0x100 on a 12-bit PIC. ; org 0x100 start movlw b'11000000' ;Turn off T0CKI option ;/ movlw b'00000000' ;Preset outputs to come up low movwf GPIO ;/ movlw b'00011110' ;Set the I/O direction (GP3..GP1 as inputs, GP0,GP5 as output) tris GPIO clrf sr0 ;Might as well start with a seed of zero. clrf sr1 clrf sr2 clrf sr3 ;/ ; ; The main loop 'taps' is 24 CPU cycles. At the 4MHz internal clock ; rate, the noise output is operating at a max. rate of about 21KHz. ; taps btfss sr3,6 ;Get bits 18 and 31 for the feedback XOR. bcf x,0 btfsc sr3,6 bsf x,0 ;Bit 31 -> x btfss sr2,1 bcf y,0 btfsc sr2,1 bsf y,0 ;Bit 18 -> y movf y,W ;!(x XOR y) -> carry xorwf x,F btfsc x,0 bcf STATUS,C btfss x,0 bsf STATUS,C ;/ rlf sr0,F ;32-bit shift rlf sr1,F rlf sr2,F rlf sr3,F ;/ ; ; Put a pseudorandom bit out to the speaker. In this example, GPIO bit 0 ; (pin 7 on the PIC12C509) is used. Be sure to use a 470 ohm resistor for ; speaker or 10K or better for input to an op-amp/divider/whatever. ; btfss sr3,7 ;line 1 bcf GPIO,0 ;line 2 btfsc sr3,7 ;line 3 bsf GPIO,0 ;line 4 ; ; Uncomment the following 'call wait' to experiment with changing the ; 'texture' of the noise (see 'wait' routine, above). movf GPIO,W ;read switch input andlw b'00011110' ;mask all but swt bits movwf i ;save value btfss STATUS,Z ;is result zero call wait ;Optional delay routine to alter sound goto taps ;Ad infinitum... ; ; That's all, folks! ; end -- ****************************************************** * Antonio (Nino) Benci * * Professional Officer / Electronic Services Manager * * Monash University - Dept of Physics * * Wellington Rd, Clayton. 3168 * * Victoria, Australia. * * TEL - 61 3 9905 3649, FAX - 61 3 9905 3637 * * Mobile - 0414 764 763 (private and ah only) * * EMAIL - EraseMEnino.bencispamspamBeGonesci.monash.edu.au (work) * * - RemoveMEfleatechKILLspamexcite.com (private) * * WWW - http://www.physics.monash.edu.au/ * ****************************************************** Content-type: application/x-unknown-content-type-PFE32; name=noise509.asm Content-disposition: inline; filename=noise509.asm Attachment converted: wonderland:noise509.asm (????/----) (0000BF5E) Content-type: text/x-vcard; name=Nino.Benci.vcf; charset=us-ascii Content-description: Card for Antonio L Benci Content-disposition: attachment; filename=Nino.Benci.vcf Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Attachment converted: wonderland:Nino.Benci.vcf (TEXT/CSOm) (0000BF5F)

part 0 980 bytes content-type:text/x-vcard; name=Nino.Benci.vcf; charset=us-ascii (decoded 7bit) Nino. -- ****************************************************** * Antonio (Nino) Benci * * Professional Officer / Electronic Services Manager * * Monash University - Dept of Physics * * Wellington Rd, Clayton. 3168 * * Victoria, Australia. * * TEL - 61 3 9905 3649, FAX - 61 3 9905 3637 * * Mobile - 0414 764 763 (private and ah only) * * EMAIL - nino.benciSTOPspamspam_OUTsci.monash.edu.au (work) * * - spamBeGonefleatechSTOPspamEraseMEexcite.com (private) * * WWW - http://www.physics.monash.edu.au/ * ****************************************************** Content-type: text/x-vcard; name=Nino.Benci.vcf; charset=us-ascii Content-description: Card for Antonio L Benci Content-disposition: attachment; filename=Nino.Benci.vcf Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Attachment converted: wonderland:Nino.Benci.vcf 1 (TEXT/CSOm) (0000BF60)

Hi, it is o.k. It IS unconnected. Regards, Imre On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Robert A. LaBudde wrote: {Quote hidden}> At 09:13 AM 9/1/99 +0200, Imre wrote: > > White noise generator, design by dr. Imre Bartfai, 8/30/1999 > > > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------- Vdd > > | 220k 220k 5V > > | +---\/\/\---+ +---\/\/\---+------+ > > | | | | | | > > | Ge | |\ | | +------+ \ > > | EFT317 PNP +-----+----|- \ | | | / 220k > > | C | | | >-+----| |----+ | |\ \ > > | |/ \ +-------|+ / 47n | +-----|- \ | > > +--B| 220k / | | |/ | | | >--+ > > |\ \ | | 1/2 LM358 +----------|+ / | > > |E | | | | | |/ \ > > +----| |----+--+ + + + / 47k > > | 47n | | | | 1/2 LM358 \ > > \ \ \ \ \ | > > 4k7 / 1M / / 2k2 1M / / 2k2 + out > > \ \ \ \ \ > > | | | | | > > +-----------+-----+-----------------------+----+---------------- Vss > > Where does the transistor collector go? Presumably to Vdd? (Unconnected as > shown.) > > ================================================================ > Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS e-mail: KILLspamralspamBeGonelcfltd.com > Least Cost Formulations, Ltd. URL: http://lcfltd.com/ > 824 Timberlake Drive Tel: 757-467-0954 > Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239 Fax: 757-467-2947 > > "Vere scire est per causae scire" > ================================================================ > >

Hi, note, that the transistor is an obsolete Ge-PNP dug out of the junk box. The Zener provided far worse results. This, however, worked at 5 volts definitely. Regards, Imre On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Maris wrote: {Quote hidden}> For most transistors it takes around 7 volts to break down the reverse > emitter/base junction so this circuit may not work at 5 volts. Maybe you > can substitute a low voltage zener for the transistor. > Maris > > > At 09:13 AM 9/1/99 +0200, you wrote: > >Hi, > >as more people wished, here is the true h/w random number generator: > > > > White noise generator, design by dr. Imre Bartfai, 8/30/1999 > > > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------- Vdd > > | 220k 220k 5V > > | +---\/\/\---+ +---\/\/\---+------+ > > | | | | | | > > | Ge | |\ | | +------+ \ > > | EFT317 PNP +-----+----|- \ | | | / 220k > > | C | | | >-+----| |----+ | |\ \ > > | |/ \ +-------|+ / 47n | +-----|- \ | > > +--B| 220k / | | |/ | | | >--+ > > |\ \ | | 1/2 LM358 +----------|+ / | > > |E | | | | | |/ \ > > +----| |----+--+ + + + / 47k > > | 47n | | | | 1/2 LM358 \ > > \ \ \ \ \ | > > 4k7 / 1M / / 2k2 1M / / 2k2 + out > > \ \ \ \ \ > > | | | | | > > +-----------+-----+-----------------------+----+---------------- Vss > > > > Standard TTL can not be driven, but CMOS (and maybe LS) are o.k. > > The power supply must be filtered thoroughly due to the high gain! > > > >Regards, > >Imre > > > > > >

At 05:42 PM 09/01/1999 +1000, you wrote: >My previous reply included the code example in line and as an >attachement. This was an error on my part. Appologies if this causes >problems, i was too fast on the SEND button... Thanks for sharing it. Personally, I like including the code in the body of the message when it's small enough. Makes it much easier to archive for future reference (otherwise, we have to imbed it in the message ourselves). Fact is, most people saving your info won't be using your code exactly as you wrote it, anyway; we'll be modifying it to suit our own needs. Since we'll be editing the file anyway, it's simple to also strip off the message portions of a combined file. So, as long as it doesn't cause any unobvious problems with the list, I'm all for sending a single text message, instead of attatching text to text. Save the attatchments for binaries. Thanks again for sharing your work & take care... Wes B. ************************************************************************ * Wes B. * "It's a wonderful world out there, Hobbes old * * EraseMEwesbEraseMEpronetisp.net * buddy... Let's go exploring." - Calvin * ************************************************************************