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PICList Thread
'Programmer Idea'
1997\05\25@084006 by Tim Kerby

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Hi
I have had a great idea (I think!) for a PIC programmer.  I have recently
posted about programmers for the psion and acorn without much success but
this might change things.  The one thing most computers, PDAs etc have (or
is available as shareware) is a terminal program.  If a simple set of
commands were developed where the hex file was merely sent (either as text
or a xmodem protocol or something) after a few configuration details to the
programmer then it could work with almost anything without having to make
specialist software.  This would probally need a decent PIC to implement a
file transfer protocol and store the hex file but I think it could be done
if someone has the time to do it (not me at present - it's school exam
season!).  What do you think?


Tim

p.s.  A further development could be a programmer with assembler built in!


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PIC Site: web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/pic/
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1997\05\25@115829 by John Griessen

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Already done for the most part:

See   http://www.sistudio.com/
for the software,

and http://www.dontronics.com/
for the hardware.

JG

1997\05\25@134739 by Leon Heller

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In message <spam_OUT3.0.1.32.19970525133555.006bcb84TakeThisOuTspampop-3.ukonline.co.uk>, Tim
Kerby <.....tim.kerbyKILLspamspam@spam@UKONLINE.CO.UK> writes
>Hi
>I have had a great idea (I think!) for a PIC programmer.  I have recently
>posted about programmers for the psion and acorn without much success but
>this might change things.  The one thing most computers, PDAs etc have (or
>is available as shareware) is a terminal program.  If a simple set of
>commands were developed where the hex file was merely sent (either as text
>or a xmodem protocol or something) after a few configuration details to the
>programmer then it could work with almost anything without having to make
>specialist software.  This would probally need a decent PIC to implement a
>file transfer protocol and store the hex file but I think it could be done
>if someone has the time to do it (not me at present - it's school exam
>season!).  What do you think?
>

The current issue of ETI has a PIC-based PIC programmer circuit.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Email: leonspamKILLspamlfheller.demon.co.uk http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 118 947 1424 (home) +44 (0) 1344 385556 (work)

1997\05\25@140801 by Matthew Taylor

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At 01:35 PM 5/25/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi
>I have had a great idea (I think!) for a PIC programmer.  I have recently
>posted about programmers for the psion and acorn without much success but
>this might change things.  The one thing most computers, PDAs etc have (or
>is available as shareware) is a terminal program.  If a simple set of
>commands were developed where the hex file was merely sent (either as text
>or a xmodem protocol or something) after a few configuration details to the
>programmer then it could work with almost anything without having to make
>specialist software.  This would probally need a decent PIC to implement a
>file transfer protocol and store the hex file but I think it could be done
>if someone has the time to do it (not me at present - it's school exam
>season!).  What do you think?
>
>
>Tim
>
>p.s.  A further development could be a programmer with assembler built in!
>

I've been looking at a similar solution for the 8088 protable that i
typically use to program my pic16c84's.  The com port runs to slowly to
send the proper clock signals to the pic and the parallel port doesn't work
properly anymore.  Besides that, being too cheap to BUY a commercial
programmer, I'm looking at how to program a pic16c84 with another 16c84.
I'll let you know if it gets anywhere.

1997\05\26@111352 by myke predko

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Hi Tim,

I designed an 18 Pin PIC programmer that works exactly what you're talking
about here (I call it "YAP" for "Yet Another Programmer).  I use a 16C61 to
interpret the data coming in and program the device.  I also put in a 19 pin
0.100" connector strip so that the device being programmed could be left in
the programmer's socket and executed (via the terminal emulator/16C61's
control).  There is also serial rx/tx pins so messages can be sent to the
terminal emulator.

If you look up the programming specs for the PICs, you will see that a 10
msec delay is required for the data to be loaded into the device.  This
means that the .obj download can only be done very slowly (I used 1200 bps)
to put it directly into the PIC without buffering the data.  (4 bytes to
each instruction at 1200 bps takes 33.3 msec, it could be done at 2400 bps,
but I felt 1200 was more "Standard").

It works quite well and with the 19 pin header, it's actaully pretty good to
prototype with (I put in a programmable clock from executing, 1, 2, 4 or 8
MHz) - Although I prefer writing my code in MPLAB, and using a ZIF socket in
the prototype circuit.

The design will be published in my book (I have it on very good authority
that it will be available the first week of September).  I have no plans to
have it marketted because there are so many *other* programmers out there
(which is why I named it the "YAP").

myke
{Quote hidden}

"My ancestors didn't spend millions of years clawing their way to the top of
the food chain, just so I could become a vegetarian"

1997\05\26@130724 by nigelg

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In message  <3.0.32.19970525115416.00685680@172.16.1.1> .....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
writes:
{Quote hidden}

I don't think using a standard comms program would be a good idea, as Tim
mentioned it would need a fairly powerful PIC to implement. However if you
write programmer software to feed out via the serial port a 16C84 would be
more then powerful enough. All it has to do then is read a byte or three,
process the command, and generate the timing delay between individual
programming data bytes. It could then reply via RS232 to confirm the required
time has passed to the main program, which would then send the next command.

Anyway, this has all been done already by a company called Keymaster, their
programmer is designed to program either 16C84/16F84 or ISO cards containing
these processors. If you do a web search on 'Keymaster' there are details
available, including the PC Windows software for download. A friend of mine
odered one of these, and the processor on the programmer was a 16C84.

If anyone wishes to create such a progammer, I would be happy to convert my
programmer software to work via the serial port - I'm currently converting
my parallel port version to run under Windows. I now have an early Windows
version running, and if anyones interested I'll put it on my web site for
dwonload - it's not finished yet, but it does work!.

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : EraseMEnigelgspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
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       | England         |                                            |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1997\05\27@152151 by ranguelo

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Tim Kerby wrote:
>
> Hi
> I have had a great idea (I think!) for a PIC programmer.
...
> The one thing most computers, PDAs etc have (or
> is available as shareware) is a terminal program.  If a simple set of
> commands were developed where the hex file was merely sent (either as text
> or a xmodem protocol or something) after a few configuration details to the
> programmer then it could work with almost anything without having to make
> specialist software.

IMHO it is a good Idea ! Some time ago i was thinking
about a simmilar programmer and i was wondering nobody
has build somthing simmilar.

Using standard serial communication and implementing
the programming algorithm in a PIC will solve some
problems of programmers we are using now :

- genereting exact Timing winth a PC
- non-standard uotput levels on the serial interface
- problems on multitasking operating systems

In addition it have's some advantages :

- works on all operating systems, including Linux, OS/2, NT ...
- works not only on intel-based PCs
- dont need special programming software
- maybe interactiv changing of the EEPROM-contents, for configuration
 of PIC devices.
- maybe reprogramming PICs trough a modem ???

Connecting a PIC programmer to a PDO is also not a bad idea,
for reprogramming devices 'in field'


> This would probally need a decent PIC to implement a
> file transfer protocol and store the hex file but I think it could be done

It would need big one, meybe a PIC16F84 would ne enough.
Since there is not enough RAM to save the the whole programm, it
have to read the HEX file line by line or even byte by byte
and programm and veryfy it.

A simple standard protokoll for the serial data transmission
like RTS/CTS (hardware) or XON/XOFF (software) should be implemented.

User interface for commands : select PIC type, read, write, erase
could be a easy text menu on the ASCII terminal.

> if someone has the time to do it (not me at present - it's school exam
> season!).

Simmilar Problem - not enough time ...



St.

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1997\05\28@041236 by Keith Dowsett

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At 15:00 25/05/97 +0100, Leon wrote:

>
>The current issue of ETI has a PIC-based PIC programmer circuit.
>
>Leon
>--
>Leon Heller
>Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
>Email: @spam@leonKILLspamspamlfheller.demon.co.uk http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk
>Tel: +44 (0) 118 947 1424 (home) +44 (0) 1344 385556 (work)
>

Yes, but as usual they don't include the source code for the PIC but expect
you to buy one pre-programmed. IMO it would have been a nicer idea to have
designed it around a 16C84 and included the source code. (Ideally on disk)

I realise that the designers have to make a living, but for a home-build
project preventing the builders from tweaking the code is not very helpful.
For example it should be a fairly straightforward process to add
'production' programming capabilities the way Octavio has with the ProPIC.

Of course if the designers publish the code for their programmer they won't
sell quite as many PICs, but I think most constructors would still buy one
because it's easier.

Just my monday morning thoughts,

Keith.



==========================================================
Keith Dowsett         "Variables won't; constants aren't."

E-mail: KILLspamkdowsettKILLspamspamrpms.ac.uk
  WWW: http://kd.rpms.ac.uk/index.htm

1997\05\28@070244 by Kieran Sullivan

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I have just read the article below. It is quite a good design
hardware-wise. Unfortunately I am just about to finish my own design which
may be used via a serial or parallel port. It too uses a PIC (16C84), but I
will put my code onto my web site as soon as it is finished. The hardware
is complete and testing finished last night. The code for the PIC is well
under way and should be finished by next Monday. The programmer controller
on the PC will be written under Windows95, but there will be both a
command-line and GUI interface version. I need the command line version so
that it works with my IDE. The GUI version will be useful for reading the
PIC and disassembling the code, etc. If anyone wants the hardware design
and PCB layout I will be happy to post it to my web site a little earlier
than I had planned. BTW, anyone know how to convert orcad schematics and
PCB layouts to JPEG or GIF files?

Kieran


----------
From:   Keith Dowsett[SMTP:RemoveMEkdowsettTakeThisOuTspamRPMS.AC.UK]
Sent:   28 May 1997 10:12
To:     spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: Programmer Idea

At 15:00 25/05/97 +0100, Leon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Yes, but as usual they don't include the source code for the PIC but expect
you to buy one pre-programmed. IMO it would have been a nicer idea to have
designed it around a 16C84 and included the source code. (Ideally on disk)

I realise that the designers have to make a living, but for a home-build
project preventing the builders from tweaking the code is not very helpful.
For example it should be a fairly straightforward process to add
'production' programming capabilities the way Octavio has with the ProPIC.

Of course if the designers publish the code for their programmer they won't
sell quite as many PICs, but I think most constructors would still buy one
because it's easier.

Just my monday morning thoughts,

Keith.



==========================================================
Keith Dowsett         "Variables won't; constants aren't."

E-mail: RemoveMEkdowsettspamTakeThisOuTrpms.ac.uk
  WWW: http://kd.rpms.ac.uk/index.htm

1997\05\28@073145 by Mike Smith

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> From: Kieran Sullivan <ksullivanEraseMEspam.....BFSEC.BT.CO.UK>
> To: EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: Programmer Idea
> Date: Wednesday, 28 May 1997 19:56
>
> I have just read the article below. It is quite a good design
> hardware-wise. Unfortunately I am just about to finish my own design
which
> may be used via a serial or parallel port. It too uses a PIC (16C84), but
I
> will put my code onto my web site as soon as it is finished. The hardware
> is complete and testing finished last night. The code for the PIC is well
> under way and should be finished by next Monday. The programmer
controller
> on the PC will be written under Windows95, but there will be both a
> command-line and GUI interface version. I need the command line version
so
> that it works with my IDE. The GUI version will be useful for reading the
> PIC and disassembling the code, etc. If anyone wants the hardware design
> and PCB layout I will be happy to post it to my web site a little earlier
> than I had planned. BTW, anyone know how to convert orcad schematics and
> PCB layouts to JPEG or GIF files?
>

Sounds nice.  Does it need an interrupt on the parallel port, if used in
that mode?  I'm kinda short on ints!

Re conversion - Protel outputs PostScript files (which embed in MS Word
nicely) - I don't know if OrCad does tho.
If it did, you could use something like PaintShop Pro's PS rasteriser to
load it into PSP, then save it however you like...
There are probably other shareware / freeware converters around.  (PSP's
rasteriser is not part of PSP shareware, BTW, it's an extra cost item)

MikeS
<RemoveMEmikesmith_ozEraseMEspamEraseMErelaymail.net>

1997\05\28@182231 by Antti Lukats

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hi,

The content of ETI PIC programmer firmware chip was published HEX File

for PIC16C84 implementation Francis J Decks Mac PIC Programmer includes
full PIC firmware source for PIC16C84. Check it out.

//

I had long time planes to make PIC16C84 based PIC programmer, but hence I
wanted it to be too perfect ie to use PWM for VPP/VCC. I know by now this
is possible and maybe I find it fun to make a true 'non-developer' PIC
programmer with F84.

I learned the realtime fun with F84 when I managed to have 8 PWM outputs
with 6 bit resolution and 1.8KHz update and simulatnuous 19.200 serial
input at 4MHz clock.

should be possible to handle serial IO and PWM for PIC programmer as well.

The main problem with programmer and direct hex download is that at
9600 baud some handshaking is required and this is not so unifrom across
platforms. At lower baudrate direct hex programming is possible.

for windows as example hardware handshake works only after serial port
FIFO's are cleared those up to 16 bytes should be buffered.


At 09:12 AM 28/5/97 BST, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- Silicon Studio Ltd.
-- http://www.sistudio.com

1997\05\28@193124 by Leon Heller

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In message <EraseME1.5.4.16.19970528091024.2c3f4beaspamspamspamBeGonemailhost.rpms.ac.uk>, Keith
Dowsett <RemoveMEkdowsettKILLspamspamRPMS.AC.UK> writes
{Quote hidden}

I find this rather irritating, also. To be fair, ETI often does publish
the source code, or a hex dump, at least. I don't think they pay much
for articles, which probably encourages the author to charge for the
program.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Email: spamBeGoneleonSTOPspamspamEraseMElfheller.demon.co.uk http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 118 947 1424 (home) +44 (0) 1344 385556 (work)

1997\05\29@084443 by mike

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In message  <KILLspamfidDOGA9NHjzEw9FspamBeGonespamlfheller.demon.co.uk> EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
writes:
> I find this rather irritating, also. To be fair, ETI often does publish
> the source code, or a hex dump, at least. I don't think they pay much
> for articles, which probably encourages the author to charge for the
> program.

50 pounds per page is the latest rate.

Regards,

Mike

1997\05\29@131531 by nigelg

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In message  <@spam@01BC6B59.FE586AC0@spam@spamspam_OUTstargate.bfsec.bt.co.uk> spamBeGonePICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
writes:

> I have just read the article below. It is quite a good design
> hardware-wise. Unfortunately I am just about to finish my own design which
> may be used via a serial or parallel port. It too uses a PIC (16C84), but I
> will put my code onto my web site as soon as it is finished. The hardware
> is complete and testing finished last night. The code for the PIC is well
> under way and should be finished by next Monday. The programmer controller
> on the PC will be written under Windows95, but there will be both a
> command-line and GUI interface version. I need the command line version so
> that it works with my IDE. The GUI version will be useful for reading the
> PIC and disassembling the code, etc. If anyone wants the hardware design
> and PCB layout I will be happy to post it to my web site a little earlier
> than I had planned. BTW, anyone know how to convert orcad schematics and
> PCB layouts to JPEG or GIF files?

If you can print out to a file as a LaserJet printer, I have a convertor for
producing a PCX from the LaserJet file. It's not my program, and I was asked
not to pass it around, but if you send me the file I can convert it for you.

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : .....nigelgspam_OUTspamlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    |                                            |
       | England         |                                            |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1997\05\29@145324 by tim.kerby

picon face
How would you program the pic - without the programmer you were making?
I always think code should be published.


Tim

Keith Dowsett wrote:

{Quote hidden}


'Programmer Idea'
1997\06\02@145209 by Steve Smith
picon face
on the subject of orcad conversion
I use orcad lots and conversion is real easy.
1. setup orcad to DXF output
2. use either Paint shop pro or corel draw to import these and export to
desired format

1997\06\02@182622 by Steve Smith

picon face
Orcad will DXF out and this goes into MS Word easy
Steve.....

1997\06\02@185317 by Bo Berglund

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face
part 0 334 bytes

Cheers!

Bo Berglund
PaddelvŠgen 10, S-17545 JŠrfŠlla, Sweden
e-mail: TakeThisOuTbo.berglundKILLspamspamspammailbox.swipnet.se



----------
From:   Steve Smith[SMTP:.....XYGAXspamRemoveMEAOL.COM]
Sent:   den 3 juni 1997 00:26
To:     RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: Programmer Idea

Orcad will DXF out and this goes into MS Word easy
Steve.....




'Programmer Idea'
1997\08\15@000824 by Jens.Madsen
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face
Why not reset PIC16C84 to keep current down? The Count-Program-Reset
Methode meets the microchip specifications.

Best regards,
Jens Dyekjfr Madsen

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