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PICList Thread
'Picstart 16b'
1998\08\20@154345 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
Hmm.  I haven't been paying enough attention...

Anyway, I have an OLD picstart 16b, purchased shortly after they became
available, and shortly before the 16C84 came out.  Is it possible to
upgrade software and/or firmware so that the 16B can program the flash
parts?  I looked on microchips web site, and only saw the DOS software
upgrade - is that sufficient?  The programmer has firmware version 1.4

(I'd always assumed that I'd just build one of the simple flash
programmers if I wanted to use the flash parts, but I'm getting lazy.)

Thanks
Bill W

1998\08\21@003403 by Mike Ghormley

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face
William Chops Westfield wrote:

> Anyway, I have an OLD picstart 16b, purchased shortly after they became
> available, and shortly before the 16C84 came out.  Is it possible to
> upgrade software and/or firmware so that the 16B can program the flash
> parts?

I too have an old 16B.  There used to be the Phoenix upgrade firmware available
at
DonTronics, but I believe that it was withdrawn a while back.  The code was to b
e
programmed into a 17Cxx chip (usually a JW part for future upgrades) and then
their TM4 driver code (or some such) would give you access to all the newer chip
s.

I D/L'd the code and then asked if there was someone on the list who might be ki
nd
enough to burn me a 17Cxx if I sent it (and perhaps a twin for themselves) to
them, but the silence was deafening.  I even asked a few folks directly (off the
list, of course) but could find no one that was both willing and/or able to burn
the 17's.

I'm afraid that I can't be of much help as I couldn't even upgrade my own.  If y
ou
(or someone else on the list) has an interest in upgrading their 16B AND the
ability to burn a 17Cxx, we might collaborate to make our programmers more usefu
l.

If so, contact me OFF THE LIST and we can make arrangements.

Just a thought...

Michael

*************************************************************************
When the way of the Tao is forgotten, kindness and ethics must be taught.
Men must learn to pretend to be wise and good.  --  Lao Tzu
*************************************************************************

1998\08\22@025414 by Dr. Ed Edmondson, Jr. Ph.D.

picon face
I also have 2 of the original PIC Start Plus programmers.  However,  I have
updated both of mine to the latest and greatest!  The devices you need to
update the unit are available from your local Microchip sales office for free.

If you really want the devices programmed contact me at spam_OUTdreaejrphdTakeThisOuTspamaol.com and
we can try to get you going.

Ed

1998\08\23@005752 by Jim Robertson

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face
At 02:40 22/08/98 EDT, you wrote:
>I also have 2 of the original PIC Start Plus programmers.  However,  I have
>updated both of mine to the latest and greatest!  The devices you need to
>update the unit are available from your local Microchip sales office for
free.
>
>If you really want the devices programmed contact me at .....dreaejrphdKILLspamspam@spam@aol.com
and
>we can try to get you going.
>
>Ed

Um, I think they were talking about the orginal picstart 16B and not about
the "original picstart plus." Big difference! Microchip is not supporting
the picstart 16B in any way sharp or form.

Jim

Jim

--------------------------------------------------------
Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
Email: newfoundspamKILLspampipeline.com.au
http://www.pipeline.com.au/users/newfound
--------------------------------------------------------

1998\08\23@005759 by Jim Robertson
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face
At 21:03 20/08/98 -0700, you wrote:

>
>I'm afraid that I can't be of much help as I couldn't even upgrade my own.
If you
>(or someone else on the list) has an interest in upgrading their 16B AND the
>ability to burn a 17Cxx, we might collaborate to make our programmers more
useful.
>
>If so, contact me OFF THE LIST and we can make arrangements.
>
>Just a thought...

Well just a thought about my copyright rights!

If you downloaded the phoenix file then it is for your use only. You have
NO RIGHT to share the file will anyone.

What you are suggesting right in front of me is that you are willing to
pirate my firmware.

The phoenix file was free for personal use only. If you didn't get it while
if was offered as such then it is too late.

When I'm sure that I can continue with my business I will upgrade and
reposted it and expect it to pay its own way.

Jim

>Michael
>
>*************************************************************************
>When the way of the Tao is forgotten, kindness and ethics must be taught.
>Men must learn to pretend to be wise and good.  --  Lao Tzu
>*************************************************************************
>
--------------------------------------------------------
Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
Email: .....newfoundKILLspamspam.....pipeline.com.au
http://www.pipeline.com.au/users/newfound
--------------------------------------------------------

1998\08\23@020919 by Mike Ghormley

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face
Jim Robertson wrote:

<snip of my previous post>

> Well just a thought about my copyright rights!

I must say right up front that I had not thought that you had any interest in cl
aiming
copyright priviledges to something that a) was freely given away, and b) came wi
th no
disclaimer about personal use that I am aware of.  I had heard that it had been
withdrawn, but thought it had something to do with TM4 not working in NT or some
such
thing.

I will of course respect your wishes, Jim.  I apologize, but I had little idea u
ntil now
that you felt that way.  I truly hope that you can see where I was coming from a
s I wish
to earn and keep the respect of you as well as the other members of this list.

> If you downloaded the phoenix file then it is for your use only. You have
> NO RIGHT to share the file will anyone.

As stated above, I will not share it.

> What you are suggesting right in front of me is that you are willing to
> pirate my firmware.

Switch to decaf, Jim.  I (or someone, if there was no disclaimer) made a mistake
, but I
am not pirating anything.  Your harsh words indicate that you have jumped to the
wrong
conclusion.  If I were going to "pirate" something, do really think that I would
be so
bold as to post to the PICLIST about it TWICE?

> The phoenix file was free for personal use only. If you didn't get it while
> if was offered as such then it is too late.

I _did_ get it while it was offered (from the DonTronics site) but remember no
disclaimers.  Where were they?  I have never looked at the file.  Is it there?

> When I'm sure that I can continue with my business I will upgrade and
> reposted it and expect it to pay its own way.

I was led to believe that you were seriously ill and had given out the "last" re
vision of
Phoenix for altruistic reasons.  Apparently your illness and altruism were a bit
overstated to me.

As I have said, I will respect your wishes now that they are known to me.  I wis
h you
every success in your efforts now and in the future.

Since we seem to be not be on the same wavelength, let me ask you a question.  I
have the
file for my personal use.  I do not have the facilities to program a 17Cxx part.
 If I
have found a person willing to burn me a copy, may I send that person my copy (p
erhaps
with a disclaimer about your copyright) so that it may be burnt?  Just let me (a
nd others
on the list, apparently) know what it is you wish.  I am sure that we will all b
e
gracious enough heed your wishes in this matter.

Michael

*************************************************************************
When the way of the Tao is forgotten, kindness and ethics must be taught.
Men must learn to pretend to be wise and good.  --  Lao Tzu
*************************************************************************

1998\08\23@033401 by Don McKenzie

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face
Mike Ghormley wrote:
> Jim Robertson wrote:
> <snip of my previous post>
> > Well just a thought about my copyright rights!
> I must say right up front that I had not thought that you had any interest in
claiming
> copyright priviledges to something that a) was freely given away, and b) came
with no
> disclaimer about personal use that I am aware of.  I had heard that it had bee
n
> withdrawn, but thought it had something to do with TM4 not working in NT or so
me such
> thing.
> I will of course respect your wishes, Jim.  I apologize, but I had little idea
until now

Hi guys,
Download entry to this file was ***ONLY*** via
http://www.dontronics.com/phoenix.html
I had a mechanism of username and password so that the file couldn't be
directly linked to from another site.
The original text is still in place and reads as follows:
===============================================
Newfound Electronics has made it's PicStart 16-B Phoenix upgrade file
available freely for personal use only. All rights are reserved and no
authority has been given for use in any commercial product. At this
stage, it is for personal experimentation and users must supply their
own chips and programming facilities. There is no Author support
whatsoever. You program and use the PicStart Phoenix upgrade at your own
risk. There is no fee charged for personal use.
===============================================

No, I'm not getting in the center of this Jim/Mike exchange, but as the
file was posted by me, I feel I should clarify the 'Rules' as set down
for file distribution by Jim.

Don McKenzie  EraseMEdonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTdontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
For more details, send a blank message to infospamspam_OUTdontronics.com
or @spam@simstickKILLspamspamdontronics.com or KILLspambasicsKILLspamspamdontronics.com

1998\08\23@035052 by Don McKenzie

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face
(My apologies if this is posted twice, it was reported as failed mail)

Mike Ghormley wrote:
> Jim Robertson wrote:
> <snip of my previous post>
> > Well just a thought about my copyright rights!
> I must say right up front that I had not thought that you had any interest in
claiming
> copyright priviledges to something that a) was freely given away, and b) came
with no
> disclaimer about personal use that I am aware of.  I had heard that it had bee
n
> withdrawn, but thought it had something to do with TM4 not working in NT or so
me such
> thing.
> I will of course respect your wishes, Jim.  I apologize, but I had little idea
until now

Hi guys,
Download entry to this file was ***ONLY*** via
http://www.dontronics.com/phoenix.html
I had a mechanism of username and password so that the file couldn't be
directly linked to from another site.
The original text is still in place and reads as follows:
===============================================
Newfound Electronics has made it's PicStart 16-B Phoenix upgrade file
available freely for personal use only. All rights are reserved and no
authority has been given for use in any commercial product. At this
stage, it is for personal experimentation and users must supply their
own chips and programming facilities. There is no Author support
whatsoever. You program and use the PicStart Phoenix upgrade at your own
risk. There is no fee charged for personal use.
===============================================

No, I'm not getting in the center of this Jim/Mike exchange, but as the
file was posted by me, I feel I should clarify the 'Rules' as set down
for file distribution by Jim.

Don McKenzie  RemoveMEdonTakeThisOuTspamdontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
For more details, send a blank message to spamBeGoneinfospamBeGonespamdontronics.com
or TakeThisOuTsimstickEraseMEspamspam_OUTdontronics.com or RemoveMEbasicsspamTakeThisOuTdontronics.com

1998\08\23@073217 by Bob Cousins

flavicon
picon face
Don McKenzie wrote:

>The original text is still in place and reads as follows:
> [snipped]

I don't want to take sides or anything, just make some comments on my experience
in writing licence statements for bits of software I write.

I try to address personal use, commercial use and distribution separately and
state whether these are allowed and if so what fees and other conditions are
made. Words like "freely" and "only" are rather ambiguous, and also with
non-native readers I always avoid these.

I think most people are quite reasonable and happy to respect the author's
intention, but natural languages are so easy to misunderstand!
--
Bob Cousins, Software Engineer.
Home page at http://www.lintilla.demon.co.uk/

1998\08\23@091333 by Alan King

picon face
Don McKenzie wrote:
> No, I'm not getting in the center of this Jim/Mike exchange, but as

Aw come on, pull out the asbestos shorts and have some fun!


{Quote hidden}

 Hmm, first off, as a 'native language speaker' tm, I would
read that as being ok to give to him as long as he provided
his own chips and programming facilities and was going to
use it for personal use..
 But, even if it was worded to more closely follow Jim's
apparent intent, it is impossible to do in practice.  Take
the networks and tv programs.  They would love to truly
reserve all rights, and make you pay to have a copy of any
broadcast, and some things even say "all rights reserved".
But they know very well that is not the case, because it is
upheld over and over that by simply having broadcast
something, they have inherently given up rights for personal
use.  And even though you are NOT supposed to make a bunch
of copies and give them to friends, it is almost impossible
to get in trouble for doing so unless you make commercial
gain, because a court will see it as having had those rights
given up.  In the same manner, "all rights reserved" and
having made something available for personal use don't
jive.  No matter how much you try, you can't get those
rights back after the fact..  Short of having a specific
signed contract saying so.  Don't let all the software 'user
agreements' mislead you, as a rule they don't stand up in
court.  If you spell things out well though people will
generally abide by it, but you can't confuse that with the
ability to enforce it..
 As a general rule, don't give anything away..  then you're
safe.  If you want to do so, do as the big M does and make
it either time limited internally or intentionally buggy as
crap beta software.  Just be a bit better at remembering to
take the bugs back out before you release it
commercially..

1998\08\23@101014 by Bob Cousins

flavicon
picon face
Alan King wrote:

>But they know very well that is not the case, because it is
>upheld over and over that by simply having broadcast
>something, they have inherently given up rights for personal
>use.  

That's not quite true. Copyright laws allow for certain things such as "fair
use", but there is no automatic transfer of rights in granting permission to
use.

>And even though you are NOT supposed to make a bunch
>of copies and give them to friends, it is almost impossible
>to get in trouble for doing so unless you make commercial
>gain, because a court will see it as having had those rights
>given up.

Not true, people have been successfully prosecuted for making lots of copies of
videos etc for friends. Commercial gain may affect the sentence, but doesn't
affect the judgement of infringement.

> In the same manner, "all rights reserved" and
>having made something available for personal use don't
>jive.  No matter how much you try, you can't get those
>rights back after the fact

You misunderstand what rights are being reserved; it is the rights to future use
that are being retained. Its like lending someone a book, you are letting them
use it, but they don't own it. The rights to use, sell, copy, distribute or
grant permission to others to use etc is still retained by the lender.

There is a lot of confusion about copyright, but there are plenty of FAQs about,
see bricolage.bel-epa.com/resources/lounge/bureau/copyright/index.html
for example.

To an extent, people think that if a law or parts of a law aren't practicably
enforceable, that somehow reduces their moral obligation. I appreciate that in
the real world, as an author, I have to realise that  _some_ people will
straight rip you off, and _most_ people think its ok to do what they can get
away with (i.e. not likely to be caught), so I therefore adopt a pragmatic
approach.

No offence intended,
--
Bob Cousins, Software Engineer.
Home page at http://www.lintilla.demon.co.uk/

1998\08\24@042626 by Marcos Migliorini

flavicon
face
Dear Don:
I want to know if is possible to download the PicStart 16-B Phoenix upgrade
file. You wrote that this file is free for personal use but when i try to
download your web sait ask me for a username and a password. Could you
please clarified me this point?

Thanks you very much.

Marcos Migliorini from Argentina

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Don McKenzie <donEraseMEspam.....DONTRONICS.COM>
Para: EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Fecha: Domingo 23 de Agosto de 1998 13:23 p.m.
Asunto: Re: Picstart 16b


>Mike Ghormley wrote:
>> Jim Robertson wrote:
>> <snip of my previous post>
>> > Well just a thought about my copyright rights!
>> I must say right up front that I had not thought that you had any
interest in claiming
>> copyright priviledges to something that a) was freely given away, and b)
came with no
>> disclaimer about personal use that I am aware of.  I had heard that it
had been
>> withdrawn, but thought it had something to do with TM4 not working in NT
or some such
>> thing.
>> I will of course respect your wishes, Jim.  I apologize, but I had little
idea until now
{Quote hidden}

1998\08\24@163948 by Don McKenzie

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face
Marcos Migliorini wrote:
>
> Dear Don:
> I want to know if is possible to download the PicStart 16-B Phoenix upgrade
> file. You wrote that this file is free for personal use but when i try to
> download your web sait ask me for a username and a password. Could you
> please clarified me this point?
>
> Thanks you very much.

Hi Marcos, if you read:
http://www.dontronics.com/phoenix.html
which is the only link, it explains the situation fully I hope. This
file is no longer available and hasn't been since the 14th of July-98.
It also gives the reason. I have left the page there as an explanation.
Perhaps it may be wiser to delete it completely, but then if there are
any changes or updates on the story, they will appear there.

Don McKenzie  donSTOPspamspamspam_OUTdontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
For more details, send a blank message to spamBeGoneinfoSTOPspamspamEraseMEdontronics.com
or KILLspamsimstickspamBeGonespamdontronics.com or EraseMEbasicsspamEraseMEdontronics.com

1998\08\24@213420 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
Mike Ghormley <@spam@mikeg@spam@spamspam_OUTBLACKSAND.COM> wrote:

> If you (or someone else on the list) has an interest in upgrading their
> 16B AND the ability to burn a 17Cxx, we might collaborate to make our
> programmers more useful.

Jim Robertson <spamBeGonenewfoundspamKILLspamPIPELINE.COM.AU> wrote:

> Well just a thought about my copyright rights!
>
> If you downloaded the phoenix file then it is for your use only. You have
> NO RIGHT to share the file will anyone.
>
> What you are suggesting right in front of me is that you are willing to
> pirate my firmware.

I offered to help Mike.  However, I did in fact download my own copy when
it was available.  Since we both downloaded it, I hope you don't consider
my helping him out by programming a chip to be an infringement of your
copyright or license.

1998\08\25@034256 by Jim Robertson

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face
At 01:24 25/08/98 -0000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Thanks Eric. Help if you can.

I will delete my "other" reply and we can all get back to watching Ally
Mcbeal.

Jim

--------------------------------------------------------
Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
Email: TakeThisOuTnewfoundKILLspamspamspampipeline.com.au
http://www.pipeline.com.au/users/newfound
--------------------------------------------------------

1998\08\25@090141 by Marcos Migliorini

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Don:
Thank you for your clearly explanation.

Marcos Migliorini
-----Mensaje original-----
De: Don McKenzie <.....donspamRemoveMEDONTRONICS.COM>
Para: RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU <spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Fecha: Lunes 24 de Agosto de 1998 17:39 p.m.
Asunto: Re: Picstart 16b


>Marcos Migliorini wrote:
>>
>> Dear Don:
>> I want to know if is possible to download the PicStart 16-B Phoenix
upgrade
{Quote hidden}


'PICSTART 16B'
1998\12\07@104209 by miked
flavicon
face
> If anyone is interested, I have an upgrade kit for the picstart 16b1.  It
> was purchased for my programmer, which turned out to be a 16b and could not
> be upgraded.  The chip is new, untouched and comes with all documentation.
> Any takers?  North America only, please.
>
I upgraded my 16B with the 16B1 firmware(up to 16C62x series) with no
problems. From what I gathered the only difference between the two was
the addition of Power and Programming LEDs.
I now have PHOENIX firmware which supports up to the 12Cxxx series, so
far.


'Picstart 16b'
1999\02\28@174104 by Scott Dattalo
face
flavicon
face
A couple of weeks ago Darrel Johansen hinted at releasing the source code
to the Picstart 16b. If you're on the gnupic mailing list then you know
that he followed through. However, Microchip has also decided to release
the schematic as well. You can get the code and the schematic here:

http://www.interstice.com/~sdattalo/gnupic/ps16b.html


Some of the UI Borland 3.1 based code was not released. However, the
communication code that runs on the PC and the .asm that runs in the
programmer are both available.


Disclaimer:

The fact that these are on my web page (as opposed to Microchip's) should
tell you that Microchip does not want to provide technical support
regarding this release. So please don't waste Darrel's or anyone else's
time at Microchip asking questions about them.


Scott


'picstart 16b'
2000\05\25@015936 by Soon Lee
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Hi any one hve the picstart 16b schemetic
pls sent it to me
thanks

2000\05\25@031608 by Mark Willis

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face
I have it, if no-one else has already sent it, will send it in the AM -
just e-mail me.  Think it's on microchip.com somewhere.  PS16b.pdf is
the file name IIRC.  26k or so.

 Mark

Soon Lee wrote:
> Hi any one hve the picstart 16b schemetic
> pls sent it to me
> thanks

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

2000\05\25@230721 by Jim Robertson

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face
At 12:15 AM 5/25/00 -0700, you wrote:

Be careful though. There are different PS 16B models so make sure the
circuit matches your PS 16B before you take it too seriously.

-Jim


{Quote hidden}

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
________________________________________
Email: EraseMEnewfoundspam@spam@pipeline.com.au
http://www.new-elect.com
MPLAB compatible PIC programmers.
________________________________________

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