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PICList Thread
'Pic list traffic'
1995\08\17@015110 by Przemek Klosowski

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After reading recent traffic on PIClist it occurred to me that maybe
we should revisit the issue of newsgroup vs. mailing list.  Recently
there has been a slate of me-too posts in response to someone's
disassembler announcement; also, it was established couple more times
that self-timing features of EEPROM in 16c84 make it easier to program
it from a serial port of a PC. I propose that if we had a newsgroup,
people would be able to see more context of the traffic, and would not
be as likely to ask the same question again and again (typical
expiration time for articles is three weeks; typically FAQs are posted
about that often, so they are always available).

Also, there is a more visible distinction between posting an article
to the whole newsgroup and sending a private e-mail reply to the
article's author.

I don't really see any downside of a newsgroup; it used to be that
newsgroups were harder to get, but with the present on-line access
revolution I'd think this is no longer the case.

On the other hand, all those nuisances can be avoided by simply
observing etiquette (separating list and personal e-mail, consulting
list archive before asking a question, etc).

       Just a thought

                       przemek

1995\08\18@201831 by Dan Judd

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I second the motion for moving to a newgroup.

>After reading recent traffic on PIClist it occurred to me that maybe
>we should revisit the issue of newsgroup vs. mailing list.  Recently
>there has been a slate of me-too posts in response to someone's
>disassembler announcement; also, it was established couple more times
>that self-timing features of EEPROM in 16c84 make it easier to program
>it from a serial port of a PC. I propose that if we had a newsgroup,
>people would be able to see more context of the traffic, and would not
>be as likely to ask the same question again and again (typical
>expiration time for articles is three weeks; typically FAQs are posted
>about that often, so they are always available).
>

Regards,Dan Judd
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1995\08\19@061500 by Jaco Swart

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Moving to a newsgroup? Yes, let's!

In fact, we have talked about starting a PIC newsgroup for Gauteng
here at Technikon Pretoria.

Greetings, Jaco Swart
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1995\08\20@162603 by Brian Read

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Tell me again what moving to a news group will buy us?
I see the same spamming and crap posts that go on forever
on news groups as on this list. Changing just to change is
not justification.

Convince me!
Brian

1995\08\20@174027 by Paul Picot

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On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, Brian Read wrote:

> Tell me again what moving to a news group will buy us?
...
> Convince me!

I'm afraid I have to agree with Brian.  There is a lot to be said for the
mailing-list format, namely that the signal-to-noise ratio is much higher
than it would be in a newsgroup, and that the spam and garbage posts are
actually much lower than we could expect in a newsgroup.

If some feel we are missing out on some spontaneous input from somebody
not on the list, I think that could be adressed by periodic postings in
relevant newsgroups, indicating the existence of this list.

As for the spam on this list, I agree it is offensive, but at the risk of
offending some people, may I point out that 90% of the traffic generated
by spam is generated from people already on the list, this message included!

If you see spam, DON'T RESPOND TO THE LIST.  You can be certain that the
perpetrator will never see it, and you will just further annoy people.

#belated vent off

-Paul

1995\08\20@184411 by Lee Jones

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I'm for keeping it a mailing list (not a news group).

1995\08\21@030126 by Lester

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Hi,

an extract from a resent mail:

<< There is a lot to be said for the
mailing-list format, namely that the signal-to-noise ratio is much higher
than it would be in a newsgroup, and that the spam and garbage posts are
actually much lower than we could expect in a newsgroup. >>

for what its worth I have to agree, if this mail list were a news group, I
would post advertisemnets from time to time, they would be in context, but
they would still offend many people.

This is a private mail list, therefore I would not even think of sending  a
commercial advertisement here.

Think about it.............I am stating fact, it may be distasteful to some
but thats life!

there are plenty more out there even worse than me.

I subcribe to many lists and this one is one of the cleanest. Spammers are
like spoilt little children, so lets treat them with the contempt they
deserve.


Best regards Lester.



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1995\08\21@062503 by David Eastlake

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Hi,

I agree with Brian, moving to a news group won't solve the spaming problem.

I seem to remember that in the US people have sucessfully charged companies
who phone them up trying to sell stuff. The way it worked if I remember was:

You have you name down on a list of people who didn't want to be bugged by
sales people phoning up.
By a company phoneing you they were using Your telephone which YOU paid for
to do thier business. Similar idea to stealing electricy.
The companies had to pay out 500 dollars each time they phoned someone who
had specifically asked not to be phoned.

I'm sure the precident would apply to computers and spaming too.

David
.....dj-eastlKILLspamspam.....uwe.ac.uk

1995\08\21@093857 by Lou Sortman

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On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, Brian Read wrote:

> Tell me again what moving to a news group will buy us?
> I see the same spamming and crap posts that go on forever
> on news groups as on this list. Changing just to change is
> not justification.
>
> Convince me!

Threading newsreaders and kill files.
You could kill the entire thread of spam or even kill
articles that talk about atomic bomb blueprints in all caps if
you want.

Even the good stuff clogs up my mailbox.  I'd rather run my
news program to read it.

1995\08\21@124140 by PETE KLAMMER

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On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, Paul Picot wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, Brian Read wrote:
>
> > Tell me again what moving to a news group will buy us?
> ...
> > Convince me!
>
> I'm afraid I have to agree with Brian.  There is a lot to be said for the
> mailing-list format, namely that the signal-to-noise ratio is much higher
> than it would be in a newsgroup, and that the spam and garbage posts are
> actually much lower than we could expect in a newsgroup.
>
> If some feel we are missing out on some spontaneous input from somebody
> not on the list, I think that could be adressed by periodic postings in
> relevant newsgroups, indicating the existence of this list.

The simplest alternative I am aware of would be a ``moderated''
mailing-list, wherein someone with authority has to screen postings before
they get remailed to members.  This is a burden on that ``someone'', and a
delaying hobble on member postings.  Maybe if the moderating authority could
be shared among several ``someones'', in several timezones, but I'm
speculating on technology that isn't just lying around yet.

Members-only posting (shades of CompuServe ``join''!) might mitigate the
problem, but by how much for how long?  Could a spammer masquerade as some
real member, or join under false pretenses?  Such a mechanism could be a
deterent, but it's hard to see how to give it any real ``teeth''.

I hope the Internet gurus or the NetNews gurus are working on this.

> As for the spam on this list, I agree it is offensive, but at the risk of
> offending some people, may I point out that 90% of the traffic generated
> by spam is generated from people already on the list, this message included!
>
> If you see spam, DON'T RESPOND TO THE LIST.  You can be certain that the
> perpetrator will never see it, and you will just further annoy people.

I partially agree; it's like responding to terrorists like the Unabomber,
except that spammers are (usually) in it for the money.  So if you can do
something that hits them in their pocketbooks, do that.  To me, that
includes making it somehow more trouble than it is worth.

But I can't agree, if this is what you mean, that if we just ignore it, it
will go away (or, it's a small annoyance, don't waste time fretting over
it).  These guys are trying to score bucks, and I suspect (without evidence,
I admit) they are getting enough payoff to continue and expand.  (Can someone
in ``Albqu.'' check out whether Jeff Slaton has ordered a new Lexus lately?)

> #belated vent off
>
> -Paul

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