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'Pic & JOb'
1998\05\08@112015 by Haile, Sam

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Hi All

can someone find a job with... pic programming knowledge only... or
learning to program pic is not meant for job just for fun


sam

1998\05\08@174328 by Bill Cornutt

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----------
> Hi All
>
> can someone find a job with... pic programming knowledge only... or
> learning to program pic is not meant for job just for fun
>
>
> sam
>


Sam,

Your question in interesting.

Programming is the art of solving problems using strict rules.
Every language and microprocessor has slightly different rules.
So Your question may be stated as "If I only learn one set of rules,
can I get a job?"

I am interested in art.  I have limited myself to using green
watercolor and painting the leaves of flowers.  Needless to
say, even though my paintings are true reproductions of
various green leaves, I have not sold many paintings.

With programming, not only do you need to know the rules, but you
need to be able to solve problems.  To learn the rules of a
language you need to write programs.  And with every program you
will get better.  And with solving problems, the same applies.  You
need to write programs and solve the problems as they come up.

School is a great way to learn.  The courses have been designed to
guide you through the learning process and the instructor is there
to help you when you have a problem.  Also your class mates will
be a help when you sit around and talk to them.  But it is up to you
to learn.  Don't just complete the assignments, try to make them
the best you can.  And write programs on your own that are not
assigned in class.  Program, program, program.....

The pic is not the best place to start.  It is complicated and there
is nothing more flustratting then to spend days trying and not
accomplish anything.  I would suggest that if you have no
experience programming, that you start with Qbasic.  Qbasic will
allow you to start out with simple programs and as your skill
increases, you can use the more advance features and build on
your knowledge.

I have not answered all of your questions, but others will have
advice also.

Bill C   spam_OUTbillTakeThisOuTspamcornutt.com

1998\05\08@180221 by Calvin

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Ha!

Is this a joke, or what?

Calvin

-----Original Message-----
From: Haile, Sam <.....shaileKILLspamspam@spam@ESEC1.ESSEX.AC.UK>
To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Viernes 8 de Mayo de 1998 10:13 AM
Subject: Pic & JOb


>Hi All
>
>can someone find a job with... pic programming knowledge only... or
>learning to program pic is not meant for job just for fun
>
>
>sam
>

1998\05\08@184849 by William Chops Westfield

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> can someone find a job with... pic programming knowledge only... or
> learning to program pic is not meant for job just for fu

"pic programming knowlege only" is not enough to get a job, IMHO.

First of all, "programming knowlege only" is pretty limitting.  In
general, it is more important to understand the problem you are solving
with your "program" than the programming itself.  This is why you can
find people with PHd's in computer science who are useless; unless you
happen to need something that exactly coincides with their thesis and
the environment they produced it in.  Since a PIC itself is so tiny and
pointless (unlike a desktop PC, for example), you have to know a fair
amount about the sort of things it can connect to.

Secondly, knowlege about a single particular architecture is limitting.
If you have a thorough knowlege of the PIC architecture(s) and
programming, you should have picked up enough about OTHER architectures
and languages to claim better than "PIC only."  If not, perhaps there is
something wrong with you.

There are probably some short term or "consulting" niches for someone
who doesn't do anything except PIC programming.  Probably NOT something
long term "that pays better than McDonalds" (over a long timeframe), or
with much of a "career growth path."

All those negatives aside, the "hands on hardware" knowlege of a typical
crop of "computer science BS's" is pretty abysmal, and the person who
built an 16C84 "LED blinker" will get the job offer over the otherwise
equal person who didn't, at least from me.

This is also, IMHO, what makes this such a good mailing list.  The scope
of discussion goes far enough beyond the PIC itself to make it almost
"well rounded"...

BillW

1998\05\08@191158 by Wynn Rostek

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>> Hi All
>>
>> can someone find a job with... pic programming knowledge only... or
>> learning to program pic is not meant for job just for fun

Sam,

PIC's are not just for fun, they are used in thousands of products.

As for getting a job knowing only how to program PIC's, I would have to say
that your chances are very slim.

If you would bear with me for a moment, I'd like to give you a different
slant on your question.  Medical knowledge spans a fairly wide range.  On
the low end, a boy scout may get a merit badge in first aid.  There are
paramedics, nurses, medical researchers, family doctors, surgens, and brain
surgens.

Brain surgens make a lot of money, and you don't see too many out of work
brain surgens.  On the other hand, I have not seen too many jobs that
required a merit badge in first aid.

Knowing how to program a single family of processors is like a merit badge.
You gain useful knowledge, but you are not likely to get a job because of it.

I have programmed in over a dozen high level languages, and I've programmed
in assembly language for over 20 processors.  The language is like a kind
of wood.  You can build a book shelf out of pine, or oak, or walnut.  Each
type of wood is a little different, and you have to handle them a little
different, but it is still a book shelf.  An employer cares a lot more
about about your knowledge of how to build a book shelf or a set of
cabinets than how much you know about a certain type of wood.

At least here in the United States, you can make a reasonable living with a
two year degree in computer programming.  You will make a little less than
twice as much with a four year degree, so if you can make it through
calculus and physics, it's worth it in the long run.

Just my two cents worth.  By the way, I have a BSCS in computer
architecture and I've been programming for 20 years.  I've also done
digital and analog design, and have a fairly broad background in RF. I also
made a living writing magazine articles for a while.  Just to let you know
how I've formed my opinions.

Wynn

1998\05\08@192227 by Mark S.

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This makes me feel good - I am a "average" pic programmer, though i have
done lots of programming (databases mostly). However, I am quite good with
electronics, that's my main passion.


{Quote hidden}

1998\05\08@213917 by robert bowman

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BillW said

>All those negatives aside, the "hands on hardware" knowledge of a typical
>crop of "computer science BS's" is pretty abysmal

one thing to beware: once your organization finds out you can actual get a
custom LCD to work or something, you will be writing drivers for the rest of
your life. kiss those sexy GUI jobs goodbye. personally, I figure a couple
of buttons is all the interface a sane user needs.

1998\05\11@122529 by Keith Howell

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Sam,

This posting has provoked far more responses than perhaps it requires.

I'll assume from the grammar and the surname that English is not
your first language, and allow for that.

> can someone find a job with pic programming knowledge only
> or [is] learning to program pic is not meant for job just for fun [?]

Well, all I do is program the PIC16C65 all day but if this were the only
skill I had then it would be hard to get any other job.

Skills cross-pollinate and blossom in novel ways.
Appreciating both hardware and software allows you
to design each with the other in mind.
My technical authoring skills allow me to prepare
project proposals and technical reports well.
A hobby interest in astronomy and satellites got me a job
offer with a company writing satellite mission control
software.

Regarding fluent English, this is essential if you wish to work
with English-speaking engineers. I certainly would find it
extremely hard to work in say France without being fluent in French.

Regarding spelling, an occasional slip of the finger is forgivable,
but when people repeatedly mis-spell the same word it is obvious they
don't know how to spell it. Acceptable for those learning a language,
but not for native speakers. If someone is not able to spell in their
own language, or is too sloppy to care about details, then I would
not employ them to produce good quality work. The comment about
mis-spelt variable names holds true.

Learn as many skills as your ability allows.
Each is a potential meal ticket!

"The roots of education are bitter, but the fruits are sweet"
- some ancient greek philospher.

1998\05\13@110835 by lilel

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Kieth wrote:


> Skills cross-pollinate and blossom in novel ways.
> Appreciating both hardware and software allows you
> to design each with the other in mind.
> My technical authoring skills allow me to prepare
> project proposals and technical reports well.
> A hobby interest in astronomy and satellites got me a job
> offer with a company writing satellite mission control
> software.

Like kieth, I program PICs day in and day out, but I could not do my
job without other skills:

Mountain climbing skills got me a job fixing alarm systems on top of
tall, tall storage tanks.  With a few ropes and a voltmeter I could
climb much more safely and efficiently than the other techs.

Experience in HVAC controls got me a lot of knowledge in heat
transfer and eventually led  to a job with an appliance company
making things that heat food.

Playing around with PICS making LED blinkies and other simple
circuits led to job programming them.  "CAN YOU PROGRAM
MICROPORCESSORS?" they asked.  "YUP!" I said, gulping.  "THEN HERE"S
YOUR BENCH!" they said.  "Oh SH___" I thought, expletive deleted,
"Now I'll have to do this for real!"


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1998\05\13@221953 by ape

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This reminds me of the lessons of my computer teacher years ago.  He
would
drill it into our heads in the first week that programming within itself
is absolutely
worthless.  One of the examples he used was to ask us, "If you knew how
to
program, could you write a chess program if you don't even know how to
play
chess?" (he gave other examples).

I personally haven't done programming of any sort in years.  I instead
went back
to school, got my 2 year electronics degree, got some experience, and am
now
getting back into programming.  My specialty is programming MCU's to
replace
preexisting circuits into a much smaller and cheaper package.  But I
have to
understand the electronics that I'm replacing.

Lawrence Lile wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\05\13@234911 by Chuck Rice

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At 9:21 AM -0700 5/11/98, Keith Howell wrote:

> If someone is not able to spell in their
> own language, or is too sloppy to care about details, then I would
> not employ them to produce good quality work. The comment about
> mis-spelt variable names holds true.


This has not been my experience. There are many types of engineers.
In my experience, the creative spellers also tend to be creative
engineers. The spelling 'bean counters' also make good engineers,
but of a different type. I have found that it is good to have both
types on staff.

By being prejudice against one type or the other, you cut yourself
off. You can hire a minimum wage worker to edit and respell the
poor spelling engineers work, but you cannot hire a minimum wage
design engineer to create for the good speller.

Sometimes you can find the all around perfect person, but they are
few and far between.

As a job applicant, you should put your best foot forward and
spell check your work and go the extra mile. But as an employer,
you should keep an open mind and judge on the employees worth
to the company.  -Chuck-

__________________________________________________________________________
Chuck Rice                                     <EraseMEChuckspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTWildRice.com>

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