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PICList Thread
'PICs and jobs'
1998\05\09@010237 by Mark G. Forbes

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Sam's received some good comments with regard to employment.
I'd like to add one more point, one which leaped out at me
when I first saw his posting:

"Spelling counts."

When I see misuse of capitalization, poor structure and
misspelled words, I visualize a person who's at least poorly
organized, and quite possibly poorly educated. This is not
necessarily true; many talented, capable people are poor
spellers. The talented, capable, *successful* people also
know that their message will never get across without some
attention to the picky details.

One of our otherwise brilliant programmers had a recurring
problem with bugs in new software products. While structurally
sound, the code contained occasional misspellings of variable
names, which resulted in some rather arcane errors. This had
a direct effect on net productivity, since time-to-market isn't
just development alone....the product has to work, too!

In your quest for fame and riches, get a broad education. Don't
ignore those facets that may seem irrelevant to a technologist.
I spend more of my time communicating than I do actually
designing, and I'm nominally a full-time designer. Especially in
an era of email, the ability to communicate clearly in written
form is crucial to your success, and the rest of the world will
judge you on your written word, absent any other measure of your
skills.

iss like, nOt so kool if peepl cant unerstannd what yer riting
cuz ya kent spel gud. An Like comma's, and stuff, ar like rilly
usefull ya no?

Study hard!
Mark G. Forbes, R & D Engineer  |  Acres Gaming, Inc.    (541) 766-2515
KC7LZD                          |  815 NW 9th Street     (541) 753-7524 fax
spam_OUTforbesmTakeThisOuTspampeak.org                |  Corvallis, OR 97330
http://www.peak.org/~forbesm
.....mforbesKILLspamspam@spam@acresgaming.com

"There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing
about."
---Anomalous

1998\05\09@042545 by Zack Cilliers

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Hi There!

Fortunately not everyboby's native
language is english.
So it is not to say if i can't spell
english flowlessly that i am not
educated.

AAP!!

Zack
              )|(
            (o o)
-----ooO--(_)--Ooo----

spazzmanspamKILLspaminame.com

There is no justice.
There is just us.

>iss like, nOt so kool if peepl cant
unerstannd what yer riting
>cuz ya kent spel gud. An Like comma's,
and stuff, ar like rilly
>usefull ya no?
>
>Study hard!
>Mark G. Forbes, R & D Engineer  |
Acres Gaming, Inc.    (541) 766-2515
>KC7LZD                          |  815
NW 9th Street     (541) 753-7524 fax
>.....forbesmKILLspamspam.....peak.org                |
Corvallis, OR 97330
>http://www.peak.org/~forbesm
>EraseMEmforbesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTacresgaming.com
>
>"There has been an alarming increase in
the number of things I know nothing
>about."
>---Anomalous
>

1998\05\09@113647 by Alex Torres

picon face
>Sam's received some good comments with regard to employment.
>I'd like to add one more point, one which leaped out at me
>when I first saw his posting:
>
>"Spelling counts."
>
>When I see misuse of capitalization, poor structure and
>misspelled words, I visualize a person who's at least poorly
>organized, and quite possibly poorly educated. This is not
>necessarily true; many talented, capable people are poor
>spellers.

And not everybody's native language is English !
There are many people from non english speaking countries present here. Some
of them are not good in english grammar so they can do some mistakes, but it
not meaning that they are poorly educated.

I'm sure that native English speaking people find many mistakes in my
messages, but for approximately 3 years that I here in piclist nobody has
complained of my messages.
==================================
Alex Torres, Kharkov, Ukraine (exUSSR)
E-Mail: altorspamspam_OUTgeocities.com
2:461/28 FidoNet
Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6311

1998\05\11@040142 by tjaart

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Mark G. Forbes wrote:

{Quote hidden}

One thing I've noticed about engineers is that most are dyslexic to some extent.As long as you can
count those zero's on your paycheque... ;)

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
@spam@tjaartKILLspamspamwasp.co.za

|--------------------------------------------------|
|                WASP International                |
|R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development|
|--------------------------------------------------|
|SMS KILLspam0832123443KILLspamspamwasp.co.za  (160 chars max)|
|     http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html     |
|Voice: +27-(0)11-622-8686  Fax: +27-(0)11-622-8973|
|          WGS-84 : 26¡10.52'S 28¡06.19'E          |
|--------------------------------------------------|

1998\05\11@094816 by Bill Cornutt
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"My dog's not in this fight."

Therefor I should stay out of it.  That would be the smart thing to
do.  That would be the safe thing to do.  So then why don't I do it?

There are people who's mind is one level above pond scum.  And I
hope everyone just ignores them.  Just as I will ignore someone
who points out a spelling error (in a mean manner) made by a
gentleman who can communicate in seven languages.

The reply in question was posted late Friday afternoon and I
intended to not say anything until the person had an opportunity to
answer any controversy he may have caused, if he chose to reply.
As the next work day after the reply has not yet  started, this timer
has not timed out yet.  But here I am anyway.

I am not here to defend anyone.  They can do that themselves if
they think it is necessary and/or productive.

The comment about spelling and grammar was appropriate.  The
question involved  jobs' and an employer's first impression of a
persons qualifications is a written resume.

And the comment was not done in a manner that criticized, but
was given as good advice. (Which appeared to be much needed)
And it was followed with good advice on other topics as well.

Also the reply pointing out that some posters may have limited
English abilities was also appropriate. All the advice given by
everyone who responded was extremely good. (Even mine) And I
think it wonderful that people take time to help others as they
always do on this list.

When replying to a post I make assumptions about the poster.
What is their knowledge level.  What do they want to know.  And
what is their level of English.  I don't want to give an answer that
is above their knowledge as they would not understand the words.

The same with the nontechnical words I use.  If I see a hint that
English is not their first language, I try to use simpler words. I do
this because if they don't understand what I write, then it is
useless to them.  And some times I do see a hint that English is
not their first language.  The way a word is used or the order of a
group of words.  But this is extremely rare.  The English used on
this list is so good that I have to be careful that I write as best I
can.  And not only is English my first language but it is my only
language.  I just hope that the people on the list accept me with
this language limitation.

Recently there has been a thread on this list about a young man
and his accomplishments.  The thread's subject is "There is hope".
There is hope that the USA's universal free school system (through
age 17) does produce graduates that have some ability and
ambition.  The youth in the USA fall into three groups.  Those that
don't finish school, those that do finish but can't read nor write,
and those that finish and can read and write.  I would not be
surprised if the three groups were equal in numbers.  That is why
the thread "There is hope" does give hope in the USA.

There was a lot to the original question.  I seen a young person
who had never applied himself to learn anything.  And after
discovering the Pic's limited instruction set (limited in number of
instructions) thought "This should be easy.  After all, there are only
33 things to learn, and then I can get a good job."  I did think that
this person had limited English skills, that English was his first
language and he was educated in the USA.

But like I first said "My dog's not in this fight."  I just wanted to
give some background information.

Bill C       RemoveMEbillTakeThisOuTspamcornutt.com

1998\05\12@145928 by Mike Keitz

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On Tue, 12 May 1998 13:22:29 -0400 Martin Green
<spamBeGoneMartin_GreenspamBeGonespamCONSUMERSGAS.COM> writes:

[...]
>     Any profession or occupation with government regulation...
[...]
>   strong teacher trade unions...

When government and unions combine and attempt to do a job, doing quality
work is *way, way* down on anyone's list of priorities.

The constant drumbeat from the union is (rather predictably) "Pay
Teachers More."  Low teacher pay is not the primary cause of the problem.
The real solution is more direct:  change the system so that unqualified
or ineffective teachers are fired.  Then it will likely be discovered
that higher pay is needed to retain qualified, effective teachers.  But
it has to happen in that order.

Notice I said "change the system" as well as "union" with "fired" above.
These are keywords that identify things that aren't going to happen in
our lifetimes.  Government-run education will be the same for a long
time.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

1998\05\12@160655 by Tom Handley

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  Zack, I'm born and raised in the USA and I can't spell in English ;-)

  For one thing, we have all these stupid rules like; "I" before "E" except
after "C"... What `idiot' invented that one? Was he from England? That's
another problem. They speak a different version than we do. And we in the USA
speak a different version depending on what part of the country we are from.

  But back to the original message; communications is a very important skill
no matter how you speak it or spell it...

  - Tom

At 10:27 AM 5/9/98 +0200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\05\12@173301 by Andy Kunz

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>Notice I said "change the system" as well as "union" with "fired" above.

AMEN!

There's a private reply to Dave's vitriol that if anybody wants they can
ask me to copy to them.

Andy


==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\05\12@234705 by Dennis Plunkett

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13/05/'98


Ah, to think that if English did not have over 830 000 words, and rules that
may be broken; "I" before "E" except after "C", then SPELL, LEISURE! Who has
that 8 year old boy who spelt FISH as GHOTI? (GH as F from enough, O as in I
from women, and the TI I can not remember), and why does four become forty.
It is most probably the most complex language, no wonder why we often get it
wrong!

Sentence and paragraph structure have changed, no more do we indent the
first sentence of a paragraph, nor is there a need to place a separating
line between each. Nottice the credits on movies and TV,  that they do not
always spell names with the first letter in uppercase.

English is constantly evolving; improving, phonetic spelling is now very
common. Do not agree with that? Colour: Color, Centre: Center, why is there
two there's and two wholes, which write is right which witch is which; the
list goes on and on and on.

Times have changed, and for some unbeknown reason (To me) the emphasis has
been placed on getting the idea right, rather than the presentation. I have
seen that people who had schooling in the 30s and 50s are far better
(Seemingly) at mastering control of English than those who went in the 80s,
etc. Perhaps this may indicate that English is an acquired knowledge over a
vast period of time, and not one that can be thought in a matter of a few
hours each day (Opinion only).

I must say that the English that has been used presently is nothing short of
colourful and down right insultive. I have not looked at all the posters
regarding this whole process, and do not wish to do so. The last one from
Martin Green, was sent to me, as I have now removed myself from this list.
It would now seem that the call for mediation may be correct and the only
option.



Overboard with emotions
PS. I don't have any good PIC jokes.

-=====================================================================-

Dennis Plunkett: Embedded Hardware, Software design
NEC Australia DRMASS
Line Interface cards
TRX software
ISDN interface card
ph 03 9264-3867

-=====================================================================-

1998\05\13@071432 by Marco DI LEO

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Alex Torres wrote:
> >When I see misuse of capitalization, poor structure and
> >misspelled words, I visualize a person who's at least poorly
> >organized, and quite possibly poorly educated. This is not
> >necessarily true; many talented, capable people are poor
> >spellers.
>
>  And not everybody's native language is English !
> There are many people from non english speaking countries present here. Some
> of them are not good in english grammar so they can do some mistakes, but it
> not meaning that they are poorly educated.

I couldn't agree more. I am always worried to hurt someone's ego when I
write to English speaking people. I hope that they don't get me wrong so
I am used to repeat the concept hoping at least one of my wording
carries the right meaning. I also use a lot of spell checking (you can't
understand what I am saying, but the single words are correct at least
:-)

> I'm sure that native English speaking people find many mistakes in my
> messages, but for approximately 3 years that I here in piclist nobody has
> complained of my messages.

Every time I hope some English speaking guy send me back my message
pointing the error I made but I think this is PICLIST and not an English
course!!

Ciao  <--(my English spell checker always complains about this...)
 Marco

----
Marco DI LEO                  email: EraseMEm.dileospamsistinf.it
Sistemi Informativi S.p.A.    tel:   +39 6 50292 300
V. Elio Vittorini, 129        fax:   +39 6 5015991
I-00144 Roma
Italy

1998\05\13@130049 by Matt Bonner

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Dennis Plunkett wrote:
>
> I must say that the English that has been used presently is nothing short of
> colourful and down right insultive. I have not looked at all the posters
> regarding this whole process, and do not wish to do so. The last one from
> Martin Green, was sent to me, as I have now removed myself from this list.
> It would now seem that the call for mediation may be correct and the only
> option.
>
I think that everyone (especially regular contributors like Dennis) who
are considering unsubscribing should look at this link:
 http://www.catalog.com/vivian/lifecycle.html

This thread typifies the life cycle of an email list.  Let's be careful
as to which part of stage 6 we evolve to.  (Bad English: I should
say....to which we evolve.)
;-)

--Matt

1998\05\14@094049 by g.daniel.invent.design

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> I couldn't agree more. I am always worried [about hurting]to hurt someone's eg
o when I
> write to English speaking people. I hope that they don't get me wrong so
> I am used to repeat[ing] the concept hoping [that] at least one of my [phrases
]wordings
{Quote hidden}

Marco !

There is a good reason for lack of complaints !

Many english speaking people write far poorer messages than you do.

Your differences are mainly in some skipping of non essential words and
slightly different ordering of your sentences.

I think carefully on reply to you !(in case of obvious "bungles")

By the way, feel free to correct me, I always let a few gramatical
errors slip through.

regards,
Graham Daniel
(New Zealand)

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