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'PIC to help our girlfriends, depilator serious'
1998\06\12@063708 by Morgan Olsson

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>This apparatus, (reading the technical description) are able to generate a
>variable tension between 200 and 800 Volt, with  45 milliampere at 1 Mhz.
>The front panel have a timer and a couple pushbutton to increase or decrease
>the power at the tweezer.
>
>Using current at high frequency the bulb of the hair is permanent destroied.
>
>My call of PIC DEPILATOR is for discuss about the value of the current, the
>frequency (fixed or sweeped) the time and other unknow parameter and the way
>to use the PIC to controll all the function of the apparatus.

How is this device targetet at the hair?
Do you have to point a needle tip thing to the skin there the hair enter?
I dont understand how high frequency can be part of the trick, but maybe
have something to do with concentration to the hair root, i dont know.
Anyway, it is a design trick to make the output transformer very small.

A very simple driver/oscillator for that transformer might be constructed
from only a transistr and a few C and R, but probably work better and have
less power consumption (good for battery) if built more advanced.  And you
wish to control the voltage and current.  There is of course also a
question of EMC...

I believe the whole thing can be built in form and size of a electrical
tooth brush  (just dont put the depilator in your mouth and kill your
teeth...!)

To stay on this lists topic, use a PIC for timing of the treatment, battery
charging, flashing a LED or whatever seem fancy  ;)

It seem to mee you already have all information necessary, written like
this: f=1MHz, current limited to 45mA, and voltage limited to 800V.

A more sporty non-cheating way is to try out the currents etc on yourself
(not your girlfriend, if you wish to keep her... )

/Morgan
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  spam_OUTmrtTakeThisOuTspaminame.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\06\12@072015 by Alan King

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Since some people seem to be concerned about the high power, you
should know these newer devices have so much power because you simply
grab the hair with a pair of tweezers.  No needle to have to get to the
root.  The extra power is so it can get enough through the hair to the
root.  At least that was the impression I got from the Damark catalog
description..


>
> I believe the whole thing can be built in form and size of a electrical
> tooth brush  (just dont put the depilator in your mouth and kill your
> teeth...!)
>

1998\06\14@215559 by Morgan Olsson

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Alan King wrote
...
>The extra power is so it can get enough through the hair to the
>root.  At least that was the impression I got from the Damark catalog
>description..
...
Strange. isnt  hair a pretty good *isolator* ?

/Morgan

/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  .....mrtKILLspamspam@spam@iname.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\06\14@215627 by Morgan Olsson

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At 07:22 1998-06-12 -0400, Alan King wrote:
...
>these newer devices have so much power because you simply
>grab the hair with a pair of tweezers.
...

Are there no other electrical connection?
If so I believe what happens is that the hair is burned off between the
tweezers.
Do this device really kill the root?  Any idea how?

/Morgan
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  mrtspamKILLspaminame.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\06\14@220545 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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I wonder what kind of battery can deliver 800V*40mA=320W power? On the
other hand, I don't doubt the values mentioned here on the contrary with a
previous letter as a well-known fact high frequency (1 MHz in our example)
is principally harmless (think of the famous Tesla-trafo). I think the
appliance works so that with a targeted thermal schock kills the root of
the hair. But there is a missing data: you wrote about timer; it is good
possible that the high-frequency signal has a limited duration set by the
timer. So if someone wants to rebuild the machine it is needed to know how
long the pulse is (or maybe a pulse train?). Such power needs special
hardware (power FET or power high-frequency transistor).

Imre

On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Morgan Olsson wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\15@021439 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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Sorry, sorry, sorry

it is 32W instead of 320W, of course. As I understood from the previous
messages, it is a limit of the peak power, so it maybe possible to use a
battery. The remark for 1 MHz due to bci is o. k. but 460kHz is also close
enough to the common intermediate frequency of the most AM receivers to
cause also harmful interferences. 1,9 MHz would be a better solution I
guess.

Imre


On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\15@235908 by smg

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Morgan:

Interesting question about the conductivity of hair.

Actually, the hair is a complex containing certain protein structures.  The
protein is RF conductive.  Although engineering is playing a more
significant role in biology, there is still not a well defined field of
biomechanics or bioelectronics.  It is surprising, though, how much
technical work is being accomplihed by a relatively small community.  Such
questions as "what are the inertial forces of the enzymes entering the
blood stream" would have been meaningless a few years ago.  But now we have
the tools to answer these questions and examine new aspects of virul
intrusion.

RF is being used in medical treatments more than ever.  But RF is still
very dangerous and so we need to help people proceed carefully with any
knowledge we have.  The questions about hair are increasingly important for
reasons beyond cosmetics and business enterprise.  The "Help our
girlfriends" discussion is very relevant from the biological as well as the
marketing side.

Also, I liked your question whether or not hair is an isolator.  In terms
of the clasical BAND GAP theory I suppose you could say that it is not
because it is not a crystaline structure.  But when we are dealing with
organic substances, AC and pulse circumstances as well as variable
impedances, we find new will factors apply.

Thank you for your question.


Richard

----------
{Quote hidden}

1998\06\16@093053 by paulb

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Dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:

> The remark for 1 MHz due to bci is o. k. but 460kHz is also close
> enough to the common intermediate frequency of the most AM receivers
> to cause also harmful interferences. 1,9 MHz would be a better
> solution I guess.

 I'm not totally sure, but I doubt 1.9 MHz is appropriate.  There are
certain defined "ISM" (Industrial; Scientific; Medical) frequency
allocations and one of them is around 460KHz; perhaps 465 or 470.
500KHz is by the way a *distress* frequency, lest anyone should idly
make that suggestion!

 The fact that the ISM frequency is in close proximity to the standard
455KHz IF frequency is not accidental; a proper radio is supposed to be
designed *not* to receive this frequency, (procedure called "shielding")
but the intention is that stray 455KHz *from* radios will fall in a band
where it cannot interfere with any other service.  I know that sounds a
bit fuzzy, but that's how it works!  Other ISM bands include the 27 MHz
"CB" band.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\06\16@113042 by Andres j Ogayar

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-----Mensaje original-----
De: Morgan Olsson <RemoveMEmrtTakeThisOuTspamINAME.COM>
Para: spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Fecha: viernes 12 de junio de 1998 12:38
Asunto: Re: PIC to help our girlfriends, depilator serious


>>This apparatus, (reading the technical description) are able to generate a
>>variable tension between 200 and 800 Volt, with  45 milliampere at 1 Mhz.
>>The front panel have a timer and a couple pushbutton to increase or
decrease
>>the power at the tweezer.
>>
>>Using current at high frequency the bulb of the hair is permanent
destroied.
>>
>>My call of PIC DEPILATOR is for discuss about the value of the current,
the
>>frequency (fixed or sweeped) the time and other unknow parameter and the
way
{Quote hidden}

A quick question: jus 800V * 45.10-3 A = 36 W

   36 Watts of Radio Frequency (assuming 100% of efficiency) wil take out
an 1.2 A 9.6 V NiCd battery in less than 20 minutes. With the 'Normal' RF
efficiencies of 40-60% they will get as much as 8-10 minutes. And these
bateries _ARE_ heavy.That's the reason why these devices are mains-powered.

   By the way, you _do_ need an special FCC (or whatever your country's
Telecommunications authority is) license for these levels of power.


>A more sporty non-cheating way is to try out the currents etc on yourself
>(not your girlfriend, if you wish to keep her... )



   For sure! No animal, no girlfriend testing. Self testing would have
saved lots of animal lives... And erased some people from earth. This should
became law.


Think twice before playing with fire... You could get wet on bed (Spanish
proverb).

   Andres j. Ogayar.
   Malaga ("Costa del Sol"), Spain.

1998\06\16@143254 by Harijs Melders

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Years ago I repaired one such professional gear(depilator).
It was made in Italy and contains a classic UHF transmitter
(quartz oscillator, tripler, booster 10W) with tweezer instead
of ariel. I don't remember exactly what a frequency was,
I think around a 100 MHz, because a FM radio doesn't work
at all. Time was controlled simply by pedal.

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\17@041302 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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Only as background information:

there was an obsolete standard in my country (possibly others) that the IF
should be 473 kHz. Theoretically there may exist receivers using this
ones. It is true the IF circuits are shielded but I don't know what
happens if the IF comes the input circuitry of the rig. That remark also
o. k. with 27 MHz but maybe there is some designing differences between
the original project and the new one.

Imre

And another question: as the original depilator was described as a $3,500
device, maybe it emits not sinusoidal but some another curve? Or it is
meaningless?



On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\17@185244 by Leonardo De Palo

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Hi,
I'm very impressed about the experience and knoledement on this list.

When I have "put on" this argument,  some friends have been an ilaric
reaction. But now the discussion is becamed more seriously.

I propose to the interested PIC'er to address the discuss to define the best
way to "fry" the hair follicole, considering first of all the safety, all in
direction to use the PIC.

Ciao

Leonardo

1998\06\18@110227 by paulb

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Andres j Ogayar wrote:

> By the way, you _do_ need an special FCC (or whatever your country's
> Telecommunications authority is) license for these levels of power.

 The license is usually a "generic" one, in the form of type-approval
of the equipment.

 That is the meaning of ISM bands; bands and/ or frequencies on which
you don't require a license to transmit specified (in this case, quite
high) levels of power.  They are "Public Garbage Frequencies".  The type
approval is merely to demonstrate that your equipment *only* pollutes
the specified frequency/ band.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

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