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PICList Thread
'PIC programming'
1995\10\04@075635 by Valehrach Roman

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ABSTRACT: (for those too bored by long messages ;-)
student looking for information, sourcecodes, circuits, etc. concerning the
programming of Microchip PICs (esp. 16C5X, 16C7X, 17CXX, 84s ) for privat and
educational purpose only, emails encouraged (no spams please!)


 Having spent my time with the 'more popular' microcontrollers by Intel
(8051-series), I'm now very interested in using the Microchip PIC-series
because they are so small and don't need expensive peripherals. The only
problem is that you need a special programer to burn those PICs and being
a student my buget is too small to buy a commercial programer. Beside the
price the commercial programers also seem to have the disadvantage of
'inflexibility' in adopting to newer PICs (or at least one has to pay a
'fair' amount for the updates).

 So I set myself the aim to build a cheap and flexible (both because
selfmade) programer with all the information I could get and ordered the
"Microchip Data-Book" in order to optain needed information about the
programming of PICs. (Am I right that there IS information (algorithms,
voltage, etc.) concerning the programming of PICs in that book ?)

 Although I waited for some time I still haven't got the book (my local
dealer seems to have difficulties with that order) and so I extended my
search to the internet (my only source since I don't own a modem).  With
luck I stumbled over David Tait's 84-programer and all the variations.
(BTW I'm really grateful for the work you all have done. Special !!cheers!!
for David who really set the ball rolling.)
[For all those who don't know where to find those 84-programers:
   ftp://rasi.lr.ttu.ee   directories /pub/sis/msdos and /pub/sis/CAD
 as far as I know... ]

 So by now I *have built* a working 84 programer, but I still don't know
HOW to program those 84s. Since my aim is not to 'reinvent the wheel'
but to optain knowledge about programming PICs, I'm still looking for
information ...
 Don McKenzie mentions a FAQ-file (by David Tait) in the files to his own
programmer. ("After reading through David Tait's FAQ file on PIC84
programming..." cited from !PIC.ME [DON001_2.ZIP]).
 Could someone please tell me where I can find it (in the internet) or
even email it to me?

 With the 84-programers I also stumbled over the PIP (in prerelease version,
Will the final also be publical available?). Is there a documented driver/
interface (since there are so many variations) or does anyone have sourcecode
for such a (PINAPI-) driver ?


 Since I'm austrian and we are a bit at the backwater of the backwater I
still can't buy the newer serial chips at my local stores (everyone seems to
be talking about the ?16C61/62? now). So I'm still interested in programming
the 'older' PICs (16C5Xs), which are cheaper than the 84s and far more
available arround here. (I sort of gathered that one has to put the program
in parallel form to the equivalent pins of RB/RA and provide a strobe signal.
But what is the length of this strobe, exact voltage-level, needed (preceding)
preparations, Pinout in programming mode, etc. ?)

 Therefore I'm VERY interested in information and sourcecodes (IMHO the
best way to learn something is to test out what exists; EXEs aren't really
*open* to the eye and besides I don't want to get sewed for reverse
engineering - I'm not Microsoft to come through merely unharmed :-).
So I would be VERY grateful if somebody could tell me where to find such
info/source or email them to me. (These would be used for privat/educational
purpose only!)


 Since I'm a true friend of IBMs OS/2 (half 2 Nil the bugs of WIN95 :-)
I'm also interested in ports or porting a programer (HW/SW) to that system.


 Many thanks in advance for your responses!

P.S.: I'm aware of the postings about a MIPP-project (= Machine Independent
     Pic Programmer) a few days ago but don't know how far things have gone
     so far. Is the MIPP finished? Will it be optainable free of charge?
     How about sources?

****************************************************************************
*   Roman VALEHRACH               eMail-to: spam_OUTe8927070TakeThisOuTspamstudent.tuwien.ac.at  *
*                                           (subject of change)            *
*                                                                          *
*   EVERYBODY!..                                        furry creatures  ->*
*   "SHARE AND ENJOY, SHARE AND ENJOY...                from alpha-centaur *
*     (we tell you .. go stick your head in a pig)"     (footprints)       *
****************************************************************************

1995\10\04@093223 by Don McKenzie

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On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Valehrach Roman wrote:

>   Don McKenzie mentions a FAQ-file (by David Tait) in the files to his own
> programmer. ("After reading through David Tait's FAQ file on PIC84
> programming..." cited from !PIC.ME [DON001_2.ZIP]).
>   Could someone please tell me where I can find it (in the internet) or
> even email it to me?

Hi Valehrach. The mention I made is of the file David uploaded to the
MicroChip BBS. I still keep telling users about this BBS. If you can ring
a Compuserve number at local call cost, then that's all you have to pay
for full access.

The file is also available on the Internet, I know David reads this
daily, so if someone doesn't come up with the Inet address, David will. I
have it somewhere but not at my finger tips at the moment.

>
>   With the 84-programers I also stumbled over the PIP (in prerelease version,
> Will the final also be publical available?). Is there a documented driver/
> interface (since there are so many variations) or does anyone have sourcecode
> for such a (PINAPI-) driver ?

I doubt if you will get source but if you are after a cheap all round
programmer kit, contact Antti at Silicon Studios. He is about to release
a new PCB that will do just about everything. I even have one on order!!

>   Since I'm austrian and we are a bit at the backwater of the backwater I
> still can't buy the newer serial chips at my local stores (everyone seems to
> be talking about the ?16C61/62? now). So I'm still interested in programming
> the 'older' PICs (16C5Xs), which are cheaper than the 84s and far more
> available arround here. (I sort of gathered that one has to put the program

Perhaps you should rethink the 5x cheaper philosophy!
My programmer now supports 61, 62, 63, 64, 64, 71, 84, 620, 621, and 622.
My hardware supports these, but I can't lay claim to the software. This
was done by Cybertech of Las Vegas US. I supply a shareware version with
my board.

>
> P.S.: I'm aware of the postings about a MIPP-project (= Machine Independent
>       Pic Programmer) a few days ago but don't know how far things have gone
>       so far. Is the MIPP finished? Will it be optainable free of charge?
>       How about sources?

As above. Contact Silicon Studios, however I think you will get a few
responses to your message.

Don...

 Low Cost DIY PCB's for PICs & COM1/LPT1 PC I/O Interface Kits    ;!
 Don McKenzie. 29 Ellesmere Cres., Tullamarine. 3043 Australia    ;@
 Tel +61 3 9338 6286 Mobile +61 019 939 799 .....donmckKILLspamspam@spam@tbsa.com.au    ;#
 Check My Promo Disk at http://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/~sis/mirror/don/    ;$
 Type: 'finger donmckspamKILLspamtbsa.com.au|more'  for more information.

1995\10\04@175234 by Shingo Uto

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On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Don McKenzie wrote:

> I doubt if you will get source but if you are after a cheap all round
> programmer kit, contact Antti at Silicon Studios. He is about to release
> a new PCB that will do just about everything. I even have one on order!!
>

I built programmer following skematic from Silicon Studios.  It works for
most of the computer, but somehow it does not work for my laptop
computer.  I check the voltage on the com port, and it is normally -7 to
-8 volt not -12 volt.  I am wondering is there any way to solve this
problems.

Shingo Uto

1995\10\04@183250 by Ben L Wirz

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Does anybody have an address for Antti at Silicon Studios, I might be
interested in this.

Ben,
.....blw2KILLspamspam.....cec.wustl.edu

P.S.  Thanks for everyones suggestions about my pic programer purchase!



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Shingo Uto wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1995\10\05@145747 by d%comms.ee.man.ac.uk%UKACRL.bitnet

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Hi Roman,

I think Don has answered most of your questions, but you say:

>   So by now I *have built* a working 84 programer, but I still don't know
> HOW to program those 84s. Since my aim is not to 'reinvent the wheel'
> but to optain knowledge about programming PICs, I'm still looking for
> information ...

I can confirm that the Microchip databook will tell you how to program
PICs of all shapes and sizes so when your copy arrives you'll have all
the information you could possibly want.  Steve Walz put together a
file which sketches some of the programming details for the 16C5X PICs and
I guess that he'll have a copy on his FTP site:

ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew/

I can't remember the filename (picprog.txt perhaps).  Anyway, while you're
visiting make sure you pick up the parallel port FAQ from there - I found
it very helpful as I knew (know?) nothing about PC internals.

>   Don McKenzie mentions a FAQ-file (by David Tait) in the files to his own
> programmer.

I'm afraid the FAQ is not about 16C84 _programming_ but about my 16C84
_programmer_ - you won't learn about the 16C84 programming algorithm
from there.  If you want to make sure the FAQ is as useless as I say then
you can pick up a copy from one of these sites:

ftp://ftp.ee.ualberta.ca/pub/cookbook/comp/ibm/
ftp://ftp.luth.se/pub/misc/microchip/third-party/others/
ftp://ftp.mcc.ac.uk/pub/micro-controllers/PIC/

as pic84faq.zip.  The 16C84 programming spec from the 1995/96 databook
is available as datasheet DS30189D and you might be able to get a
copy from Elbatex GmBH, Eitnergasse 6, A-1230 Wien (Tel: 1-86642-0;
Fax: 1-86642-201) before your databook turns up.

> P.S.: I'm aware of the postings about a MIPP-project (= Machine Independent
>       Pic Programmer) a few days ago but don't know how far things have gone
>       so far. Is the MIPP finished? Will it be optainable free of charge?
>       How about sources?

I, at least, haven't had any time to work on this.  The main aim was to
make a PIC based PIC programmer that could be bootstrapped on any
computer with a serial port.  Robin Abbott's ETI programmer could be
described as a MIPP.  I think you can grab some information about
this project from the Silicon Studio site including a hex dump of the
PIC used in the programmer.  Robin seems to have joined the PICLIST
so maybe he can give you more details.

David
--
EraseMEdavid.taitspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTman.ac.uk

1995\10\06@174753 by Robin Abbott

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Re: pic programming

Roman
=====

The ETI programmer will program 5x,6x,7x etc. and future devices
using the serial port on a PC. It is cheap because it uses separate
sockets for 18,28 and 40 pin devices, and therefore has no
voltage switching on programming and supply pins.

If you want the code and circuit diagram drop me a line and I'll
send it to you. The circuit is unfortunately only available in
Designer 4.1 format, conversion to other formats seems to always
result in a fatal flaw like all components jet black!

robin.abbottspamspam_OUTdial.pipex.com

1995\10\06@192734 by Steve Chandler

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    I bought a Xeltek Rom Master because I heard it programms PIC
    microcontrollers. It only does the 16c5x stuff but I want to program
    the 16c84. Does anyone know if there are drivers available or enough
    info that I could write one? Xeltek says that it won't program them
    but I think the hardware is there and they don't want the $100 dollar
    Rom Master to compete with the $500 dollar Super Pro too much.

    ---Steve



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: PIC Programming
Author:  @spam@fs34KILLspamspamDIAL.PIPEX.COM at SMTP-GATEWAY
Date:    10/6/95 10:55 PM


Re: pic programming

Roman
=====

The ETI programmer will program 5x,6x,7x etc. and future devices
using the serial port on a PC. It is cheap because it uses separate
sockets for 18,28 and 40 pin devices, and therefore has no
voltage switching on programming and supply pins.

If you want the code and circuit diagram drop me a line and I'll
send it to you. The circuit is unfortunately only available in
Designer 4.1 format, conversion to other formats seems to always
result in a fatal flaw like all components jet black!

KILLspamrobin.abbottKILLspamspamdial.pipex.com

1995\10\07@063640 by Terry Yingling

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On Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:55:15 GMT, you wrote:

>The ETI programmer will program 5x,6x,7x etc. and future devices
>
>If you want the code and circuit diagram drop me a line and I'll
>send it to you. The circuit is unfortunately only available in

Robin, I would be very interested in the above info and I have designer too..

Thank you


Terry Yingling

1995\10\07@132409 by Robin Abbott

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--813090794=_Mail-It2_=-940959554
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Terry,

Please see the PICLIST for details of the schematic.
I attach the PIC 2.0 hex code.

--813090794=_Mail-It2_=-940959554
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MDA4MEMzMzAwMUENCjowODBDNDgwMDMwMEMyNDAwNkMwMEEzMDQzMQ0KOjA4MEM1MDAwQzMw
NDE3MDlBMzA1QzMwNTQ1DQo6MDgwQzU4MDAwQjAyRUMwMTIwMDBBNDAyRDQNCjowODBDNjAw
MEVGMDIyNzBBQTMwNEMzMDRGQw0KOjA4MEM2ODAwMTcwOUEzMDVDMzA1MEIwMkU3DQo6MDgw
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OTkNCjowMjBGRkUwMDAxMEFFNg0KOjAwMDAwMDAxRkYNCg==

--813090794=_Mail-It2_=-940959554--

1995\10\08@215336 by Paul Christenson [N3EOP]

flavicon
face
>Content-transfer-encoding: base64

Uh, how about posting in a format that is useable?

1995\10\08@221241 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
Hi,

> Uh, how about posting in a format that is useable?

I wasn't the poster, and I may be jumping in here without looking,
but base64 is "the" standard MIME encoding format. If you're using
Unix, then you owe it to yourself to get the latest version of elm,
with the metamail add-on to allow it to handle MIME. If using Windows,
just about any windows mail program will handle MIME (e.g. Pegasus Mail).

Cheers, Clyde

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs       | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 3300 5011
RemoveMEclydeTakeThisOuTspamhitech.com.au      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 3300 5246
http://www.hitech.com.au  | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   | BBS:   +61 7 3300 5235
                   HI-TECH C: Compiling the real world...

1995\10\08@222734 by Lee Jones

flavicon
face
>> Content-transfer-encoding: base64

> Uh, how about posting in a format that is useable?

Base64 is emminently useable, portable, and standardized.  The SMTP
protocol specifically limits itself to 7-bit ASCII data (see RFC 821).
Without prior negotiation and agreement, the transfer of 8-bit binary
data is prohibit.  If forced, it will cause interoperability problems.

So 8-bit data must be converted to 7-bit for safe transport through
the email networks of the world.  Uuencode doesn't qualify since it is
non-standard (multiple, incompatible implementations) & uses characters
that may not translate into non-ASCII (i.e. EBCDIC on big IBM hardware).

MIME (see RFC 1521) is the Internet standards-track way that SMTP has
been extended to handle the transport of multi-part and/or binary data
Base64 is a required part of MIME.  It is well defined.  Any modern
email user agent (UA) will transparently decode base64 as the message
is read.  If you are unwilling or unable to upgrade your UA, there are
several stand-alone base64 decoders available (for PC, Unix, Mac, etc).

                                               Lee

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Jones Computer Communications             spamBeGoneleespamBeGonespamfrumble.claremont.edu
509 Black Hills Dr, Claremont, CA 91711         voice: 909-621-9008
-------------------------------------------------------------------

1995\10\09@131503 by Greg Riddick

flavicon
face
In response to the question about how the Basic Stamp measures
pot resistance:
The Basic stamp POT command actually measures discharge time for
an RC circuit rather than resistance per se.  By using a constant
capacitance value (like .1 uf) in series with an unknown
resistance, the resistance can be measured by determining how
long the capacitor takes to discharge after it has been fully
charged and then connected to ground through the resistor.  In
the Basic Stamp, a pin is taken high to  charge the capacitor,
and then put in input mode to trigger when the capacitor
discharges to below the threshold voltage of the pin gate.  This
setup can be made more accurate by including a separate resistor
of a known value on a different pin to calibrate the circuit for
temperature changes. See AN512 in the imbedded control  handbook.

--Greg


'PIC Programming'
1995\11\21@021329 by Joel Carvajal
flavicon
face
Can anyone send me a *COMPRESSED* (LHA or PKZIP) PDF (Acrobat format) file
of the PIC16CXX Programming Specification Document?

I cannot use the modem to connect to Microchip's BBS for company policy
reason.

Sorry to be a pain.

1995\11\21@021329 by Joel Carvajal

flavicon
face
Can anyone send me a *COMPRESSED* (LHA or PKZIP) PDF (Acrobat format) file
of the PIC16CXX Programming Specification Document?

I cannot use the modem to connect to Microchip's BBS for company policy
reason.

Sorry to be a pain.

1995\11\21@092525 by Paul Christenson [N3EOP]

flavicon
face
>Can anyone send me a *COMPRESSED* (LHA or PKZIP) PDF (Acrobat format) file
>of the PIC16CXX Programming Specification Document?
>
>I cannot use the modem to connect to Microchip's BBS for company policy
>reason.

If you can use the modem to access the Internet, then you can get it through
the WWW.  Just point your browser at
http://www.ultranet.com/biz/mchip/
and you can get everything you need from there.

1995\11\21@092525 by Paul Christenson [N3EOP]

flavicon
face
>Can anyone send me a *COMPRESSED* (LHA or PKZIP) PDF (Acrobat format) file
>of the PIC16CXX Programming Specification Document?
>
>I cannot use the modem to connect to Microchip's BBS for company policy
>reason.

If you can use the modem to access the Internet, then you can get it through
the WWW.  Just point your browser at
http://www.ultranet.com/biz/mchip/
and you can get everything you need from there.


'Pic Programming'
1995\12\18@064323 by Erik Hermann
flavicon
face
* Patrick C Leger <blah+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU> wrote:


>I just built an RS-232 powered 16C84 programmer (the one with 1
>diode, 1 cap, 1 78L05, and 3 resistors), but I'm having some problems
>with it.  The 78L05 sucks the tx line (and thus MCLR) down to about 7
>volts, which is apparently not enough to kick it into programming

The 16C84 needs about 10.5 to 11V to switch to programming mode.
My original design uses a resistor and a Zener-diode, because I had the same
problem with the 78L05.


    TxD ---*-----------------------------
    (2)    I                            I
          ---                          ---
          I I                          I I
          I I 2k2                      I I 10k
          ---         1N4148           ---
           I       I\I                  I
           *-------I-I-----*---------   I
           I       I/I     I        I   I
         ----\             I +      I   I
          /\  \           ---    14 I   I 4
         /  \    5V6      ---   --------------
         ----         100u I    I  Vdd Vpp   I
           I               I    I            I
           I               I  5 I            I
    GND ---*---------------*----I Vss        I
    (7)           22k           I            I
                 -----       12 I            I
    RTS ---------I   I----------IRB6 (clock) I
    (4)          -----          I            I
                 -----       13 I            I
    DTR ---------I   I----*-----IRB7 (data)  I
    (20)         -----    I     I            I
                  2k2     I     I  PIC 16C84 I
    CTS ------------------I     I------------I
    (5)



This should work. If not, try to vary the resistor between DTR and CTS.

- Erik
___ Terminate 1.51

1995\12\18@075327 by Griffith Kadnier

flavicon
face
You wrote:
>
> * Patrick C Leger <blah+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU> wrote:
>
>
>>I just built an RS-232 powered 16C84 programmer (the one with 1
>>diode, 1 cap, 1 78L05, and 3 resistors), but I'm having some problems
>>with it.  The 78L05 sucks the tx line (and thus MCLR) down to about 7
>>volts, which is apparently not enough to kick it into programming
>
>The 16C84 needs about 10.5 to 11V to switch to programming mode.
>My original design uses a resistor and a Zener-diode, because I had
the same
{Quote hidden}

CTS.
>
> - Erik
>___ Terminate 1.51
>

Do you use a public domain programming package (sw) ?

tahnks,gwk


'PIC programming'
1996\11\05@115738 by Conor O'Rourke
flavicon
face
Hi!,

This may sound like a silly question but....
I've been reading the PIC data sheets and I understand the PIC
pretty well and how it's programmed but I'm puzzled by one thing
- the clock source.
The data sheet indicates that you need a clock source to program
the PIC (I'm using the PIC16C84 here), but it doesn't specify
what happens when you set the Config fuses such that the clock
source is changed. For example if you are using RC and you set
the fuses for XT does the system stop?? Personally, I would think
that fuse setting would not take effect until next MCLR# but
you never know! Also, my impression is that the PIC as supplied
would be set as RC (EEPROM all 1s) and so what would happen if
you used a crystal while the fuses were set as RC or
vice versa. Will damage result? Looking at the input circuit it
is very hard to know.
Hmm, I think I might just give up and spend the cash on the PicStart
Plus - it might be worth it :-)

Thanks,

 Conor O'Rourke.

1996\11\05@141928 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
>
> Hi!,
>
> This may sound like a silly question but....
> I've been reading the PIC data sheets and I understand the PIC
> pretty well and how it's programmed but I'm puzzled by one thing
> - the clock source.
> The data sheet indicates that you need a clock source to program
> the PIC (I'm using the PIC16C84 here),

This is an incorrect assertion. The clock isn't involved in programming.

{Quote hidden}

The data sheet makes it very clear that a crystal shouldn't be hooked up
when the chip is in RC mode.

The issues you raise are important for in system programming. But if you're
building your own programmer, there should be no oscillator of any type
hooked up to the PIC.

> Hmm, I think I might just give up and spend the cash on the PicStart
> Plus - it might be worth it :-)

Maybe. But check out the Web for the myriad of 16C84 programming
circuits that are out there if you're interested in the cheap solution.

BAJ

1996\11\05@175832 by Craig Knotts

flavicon
face
    When programming a PIC, you're supplying a clock signal externally, so
    that the configured clock doesn't really apply.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: PIC programming
Author:  TakeThisOuTCOROURKEEraseMEspamspam_OUTCCVAX.UCD.IE at internet
Date:    11/5/96 2:55 PM


Hi!,

This may sound like a silly question but....
I've been reading the PIC data sheets and I understand the PIC
pretty well and how it's programmed but I'm puzzled by one thing
- the clock source.
 <snip>

1996\11\05@212145 by Jim Robertson

flavicon
face
At 04:54 PM 11/5/96 +0000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Conor,

You are misreading the 16C programming specs. The only "Clock source" required
is the synchronous "CLK" signal on RB6, NOT the parts "OSC" clock.
In fact, if you really read the (later) programming specs closely, you will
see
that the external "OSCillator" should be disabled.

Take it from me, the OSCillator clock is not required for programming and
indeed
can be a nuisance in the case of ISP.

As the part does NOT use the external OSCillator,  the state of the OSC
fuses is completely irrelevant.

However, for the 17Cxx series, it is a different matter. These devices are
self-programming or "Bootstrap programmed" (like the 68705s) and DO require
the
on board OSCillator to be driven. NOW the state of the OSC fuses do make a
difference!

If you read the 17Cxx programming specs, you  will see that an external clock
is required with sufficient swing and drive to OVERPOWER whatever OSC type is
selected. In other words, for the 17Cxx parts the "brute force method" is
used.

Jim

1996\11\06@131253 by Conor O'Rourke

flavicon
face
> You are misreading the 16C programming specs. The only "Clock source" required
> is the synchronous "CLK" signal on RB6, NOT the parts "OSC" clock.
> In fact, if you really read the (later) programming specs closely, you will
> see
> that the external "OSCillator" should be disabled.

Ahhh. That explains it. I think I was misreading the programming specs.
I don't have them with me at the moment. When I get home I'll look at them
again. I think I was thrown by the specs that said clock between 4-10MHz
in the programming section...I assumed therefore that the clock had to
be present.

As someone else commented the data sheet _does_ say that operation with
a crystal while on RC mode will cause damage. Funny the way data sheets
don't tell you what'll happen generally. They say "operation in this
mode is not recommended" or similar, not "do this and smoke will appear"
:-0

>
> Take it from me, the OSCillator clock is not required for programming and
> indeed
> can be a nuisance in the case of ISP.

It's going to be a nuisance then :-). I think I'll gate Vpp to disable
the external clock (from an ISA bus) when I'm programming the device in
circuit. Either that or make sure I get the program right first time...
nah...it's a pain ripping an ISA card in and out of circuit.

{Quote hidden}

Thanks for clearing that up,

Conor O'Rourke,
Dublin, Ireland

1996\11\06@161350 by Bradley, Larry

flavicon
face
Jim, please elaborate on how the clock can cause problems with
programming, particularly with an in-circuit programming setup. If this
is indeed the case (so far I've had no problems, but I've only played
around a little bit), suggestions for disabling the clock during
programming, in an in-ciruit environment?

Larry


>----------
>From:  Jim Robertson[SMTP:RemoveMEnewfoundspamTakeThisOuTNE.COM.AU]
>Sent:  Wednesday, November 06, 1996 1:58 PM
>To:    Multiple recipients of list PICLIST
>Subject:       Re: PIC programming

(snip)

>Take it from me, the OSCillator clock is not required for programming and
>indeed
>can be a nuisance in the case of ISP.
>
>(Snip)

1996\11\07@011103 by John Payson

picon face
> Jim, please elaborate on how the clock can cause problems with
> programming, particularly with an in-circuit programming setup. If this
> is indeed the case (so far I've had no problems, but I've only played
> around a little bit), suggestions for disabling the clock during
> programming, in an in-ciruit environment?

From my experience, it appears the same counter is used for the ISP address
as is used for the "program counter".  Normally, holding /MClr low before
entering ISP mode will ensure that this register is zero at the start of
programming.  If, however, /MClr rises too slowly the PIC may start executing
code before entering ISP mode.  If this happens, then programming will start
wherever code was executing, rather than at address zero.  Disabling the
clock will avoid this phenomenon.

1996\11\07@074847 by Jim Robertson

flavicon
face
At 11:11 PM 11/6/96 -0600, you wrote:
>> Jim, please elaborate on how the clock can cause problems with
>> programming, particularly with an in-circuit programming setup. If this
>> is indeed the case (so far I've had no problems, but I've only played
>> around a little bit), suggestions for disabling the clock during
>> programming, in an in-ciruit environment?
>
>>From my experience, it appears the same counter is used for the ISP address
>as is used for the "program counter".  Normally, holding /MClr low before
>entering ISP mode will ensure that this register is zero at the start of
>programming.  If, however, /MClr rises too slowly the PIC may start executing
>code before entering ISP mode.  If this happens, then programming will start
>wherever code was executing, rather than at address zero.  Disabling the
>clock will avoid this phenomenon.


Yer, that is what I was refering to. When I was developing my programer's ISP
port, I had this problem. Amazingly as the same thing happened for both the
programming and verify cycles with the program counter ending up at the same
address. Therefore the problem was not evident until you actually tried to
use
the chip.

This one took a bit of head scratching before the penny dropped. The remedy
is to have only a very short delay between Vdd rise and Vpp rise. This is now
stated in the programming specs but back then it wasn't. We did it hard in the
early days!

Jim



--------------------------------------------------------
Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
Email: newfoundEraseMEspam.....ne.com.au
http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~newfound

PHOENIX Shareware Picstart 16B upgrade coming.
For more details, send email to EraseMEnewfoundspamne.com.au with
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1996\11\07@095829 by Conor O'Rourke

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> > You are misreading the 16C programming specs. The only "Clock source"
required
> > is the synchronous "CLK" signal on RB6, NOT the parts "OSC" clock.
> > In fact, if you really read the (later) programming specs closely, you will
> > see
> > that the external "OSCillator" should be disabled.
>
> Ahhh. That explains it. I think I was misreading the programming specs.
> I don't have them with me at the moment. When I get home I'll look at them
> again. I think I was thrown by the specs that said clock between 4-10MHz
> in the programming section...I assumed therefore that the clock had to
> be present.

I had a look and I know where I went wrong. I was looking for info about
CLKIN in programming mode and I couldn't find it. What I _did_ do was
open the data book at the wrong page - the 17CXX ac/dc specifications
where I saw "CLKIN 4 - 10MHZ" and click, I seized on that. Serves me
right for reading data sheets at 1 in the morning. :-)

BTW, someone else was asking about disable in the click in an in circuit
environment. Well, if you can gate MCLR so that 13V is applied it should
be no problem to use the same sequence to disable the clock.


Conor.

1996\11\08@050500 by Matthew Mucker

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>
>I had a look and I know where I went wrong. I was looking for info about
>CLKIN in programming mode and I couldn't find it. What I _did_ do was
>open the data book at the wrong page - the 17CXX ac/dc specifications
>where I saw "CLKIN 4 - 10MHZ" and click, I seized on that. Serves me
>right for reading data sheets at 1 in the morning. :-)

Well, fer cryin' out lound, when else WOULD you read them?  Surely you
wouldn't want to be up at the godawful hour of ten in the morning, would
you?  ;-)

-Matt


 "DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and
millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million
machines in use wordwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that
cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do
not denote a higher life form."


'pic programming'
1998\06\16@073107 by ratacus spartucus
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part 0 278 bytes
Is their anyway i could use a pic 16f84 or something in the pic family to buikld a programmer for a 12c509. something standalone, and the code going to the 12c509 be on a eeprom,,, anyhelp would be appreciated or and links or reference would also be appreciated.

thanx

adam


1998\06\17@004355 by paulb

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Hello Adam.

> Is there any way I could use a pic 16f84 or something in the pic
> family to build a programmer for a 12c509.  Something standalone, and
> the code going to the 12c509 be on a eeprom.  Any help would be
> appreciated and links or reference would also be appreciated.

 Excellent idea!  In fact, most stand-alone programmers specially for
PICs use a PIC, generally a 17C42 as I understand it.  I've got one, a
PICSTART 16B2, but there is great suspicion that its firmware is
unstable so I'm not using it yet.

 The reason the 17C42 is used is mainly as it has plenty of I/O.  For
the 12C509 however you don't need much I/O anyway, so a 16F84 would be
perfect - well, with a few other bits.

 Firstly, you need a VPP (programming voltage) supply with switching.

 Actually, before I elaborate, may I presume you are using a parallel-
port programmer for the 16F84, or intend to do so?  In fact, the same
programmer will happily program 12C509s with an adapter.  Conversely,
you can program another 16F84 with your 16F84-based programmer etc.

 Anyway, whatever circuit controls the VPP for your current programmer
can be built into your stand-alone one.  You only have to connect the
programming lines to common port pins, and the serial EEPROM.  You'll
need a few control keys and some indicators.  Suggest a latch such as a
75HC595 to drive up to 8 LEDs as indicators.  Go for an 8K EEPROM so it
can hold a number of code images.

 Wild guess - is this to field-copy and "clone" parts, such as cable
decoders or Playstation picks?

 Cheers,
       Paul B.


'PIC programming'
1998\11\01@103541 by Gary Chung
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Hi,
Can someone recommend a good book for PIC programming ??
Preferebly assembly language or "C"

TIA
Gary

1998\11\01@141602 by Les

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The best book of all is the Net, there is a wealth of knowledge out there,
thats how I learned. I bought the books after and have found most of them
inadequate and repetitive there are a few gems such as Nigel Gardners PIC
Cookbook 1, book 2 isn't so hot as he covered most things in the first one.

                       My pennies worth

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