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PICList Thread
'P16Pro Programming problem'
2000\04\22@002826 by Josh Koffman

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Greetings.
I recently built Bojan Dobaj's P16Pro programmer and am using the P16Pro
software to try to program a 16F877. I seem to have no problems when I
try to erase, read or blank check the microcontroller, but when I go to
program it, I get a programming error. Here are the numbers it has spit
out at me so far:
2 151F 2A1F
0 1283 2883
0 1283 2903
3 159F 349F

I have gotten some of the numbers a couple of times. I don't know what
these numbers represent. The only thing I can think of is that I'm
pretty sure my voltages are off a bit. My +5V is more like +6.6V and my
+13V is around +14.5V. I built the power supply section exactly as
described. In fact I built it twice as I was sure I had burned one of
the regulators, but I still get these voltage readings. Here is the url
if you wish to check out the programmer/software:
www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Peaks/9620/
Just in case it helps, I trying to run this on a 386SX25. I checked out
the programmer in the PICAll software and near as I could tell it seemed
to work. If someone had a checklist or procedure to follow to verify
that it is working ok that would be great.

I hope someone out there can help me...I don't even know where to begin.

Thank you in advance,
Josh Koffman
spam_OUTjoshyTakeThisOuTspammb.sympatico.ca

2000\04\22@044919 by Don McKenzie

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Josh Koffman wrote:
>
> Greetings.
> I recently built Bojan Dobaj's P16Pro programmer and am using the P16Pro
> software to try to program a 16F877.

snip---

> I hope someone out there can help me...I don't even know where to begin.
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Josh Koffman
> .....joshyKILLspamspam@spam@mb.sympatico.ca

Read the extensive help text built into the product. There is also a
test feature to check voltages, and yes your voltages look way out.

Don McKenzie    donspamKILLspamdontronics.com      http://www.dontronics.com

World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR and  PICmicro Hardware and  Software.
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
Simplest-Cheapest Intro to Micros?? http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

2000\04\22@123030 by Josh Koffman

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> > I recently built Bojan Dobaj's P16Pro programmer and am using the P16Pro
> > software to try to program a 16F877.
>
> Read the extensive help text built into the product. There is also a
> test feature to check voltages, and yes your voltages look way out.

Thanks for replying Don. Do you think it will help if I redo the power
supply section with two LM317 each tweaked so I get the exact voltages I
need? Also, where are these help texts? In the zip file there wasn't
much. Are they in the help section of the PICAll software?

Thank you again for your help,
Josh Koffman
.....joshyKILLspamspam.....mb.sympatico.ca

2000\04\22@145859 by Ken Kaarvik

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> My +5V is more like +6.6V and my
> +13V is around +14.5V. I built the power supply section exactly as
> described. In fact I built it twice as I was sure I had burned one of
> the regulators, but I still get these voltage readings

These are the results I had too when I used a 74HC05. It has a protection
diode on the output.
Make sure you're using an "LS" part (74LS05).

Cheers
Ken

2000\04\22@181336 by paulb

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Ken Kaarvik wrote:

> These are the results I had too when I used a 74HC05.  It has a
> protection diode on the output.
> Make sure you're using an "LS" part (74LS05).

 Actually, it's supposed to be a 74LS06/ 74LS16 and even then, you have
to be quite careful which brand you select, as some of these also have
the diode.  The T-I 74LS06 is specified to use at 30V, others, and *all*
74xx05 devices, are specified at *no more* than 7V.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

2000\04\22@191232 by Don McKenzie

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Josh Koffman wrote:
>
> > > I recently built Bojan Dobaj's P16Pro programmer and am using the P16Pro
> > > software to try to program a 16F877.
> >
> > Read the extensive help text built into the product. There is also a
> > test feature to check voltages, and yes your voltages look way out.
>
> Thanks for replying Don. Do you think it will help if I redo the power
> supply section with two LM317 each tweaked so I get the exact voltages I
> need? Also, where are these help texts? In the zip file there wasn't
> much. Are they in the help section of the PICAll software?
>
> Thank you again for your help,
> Josh Koffman
> EraseMEjoshyspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmb.sympatico.ca

I hope you are talking about the PICALLW file, or the windows version.
set the hardware up to p16pro first.
you can wander you way through the on line help, and it gives you
details to run the test program and toggle the printer port bits for
voltage testing and operation.

You don't need the accuracy of 317s or 1% resistors, these voltages
aren't critical, but the measurements you gave almost sounds like the
meter is faulty.

I mean a 7805 should give you an output of +/- 5%. In fact, i have found
4.9 to 5.0 is general with the regs I get.

Don McKenzie    donspamspam_OUTdontronics.com      http://www.dontronics.com

World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR and  PICmicro Hardware and  Software.
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
Simplest-Cheapest Intro to Micros?? http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

2000\04\22@191650 by Don McKenzie

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Ken Kaarvik wrote:
>
> > My +5V is more like +6.6V and my
> > +13V is around +14.5V. I built the power supply section exactly as
> > described. In fact I built it twice as I was sure I had burned one of
> > the regulators, but I still get these voltage readings
>
> These are the results I had too when I used a 74HC05. It has a protection
> diode on the output.
> Make sure you're using an "LS" part (74LS05).

I use TTL parts not HC or LS, this may be your problem, i know TI LS
parts can be a real pain.

In fact all i use for the simple programmer is the 7407. Peter in HK for
his DIY kits, supplies a 7406, as he had similar problems to me. you
just need to set up the hardware config to suit the chip type, that is
7406/7407.

Don McKenzie    @spam@donKILLspamspamdontronics.com      http://www.dontronics.com

World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR and  PICmicro Hardware and  Software.
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
Simplest-Cheapest Intro to Micros?? http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

2000\04\22@203708 by Josh Koffman

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> > Thanks for replying Don. Do you think it will help if I redo the power
> > supply section with two LM317 each tweaked so I get the exact voltages I
> > need? Also, where are these help texts? In the zip file there wasn't
> > much. Are they in the help section of the PICAll software?
>
> I hope you are talking about the PICALLW file, or the windows version.
> set the hardware up to p16pro first.
> you can wander you way through the on line help, and it gives you
> details to run the test program and toggle the printer port bits for
> voltage testing and operation.

I am going to look for these in a few minutes

> You don't need the accuracy of 317s or 1% resistors, these voltages
> aren't critical, but the measurements you gave almost sounds like the
> meter is faulty.
>
> I mean a 7805 should give you an output of +/- 5%. In fact, i have found
> 4.9 to 5.0 is general with the regs I get.

Actually I suspected my regulators were bad, so I breadboarded the power
supply section. With all the parts in I got about 6.6 and about 14.5
volts on the outputs, but as soon as I pulled the 7808 out, the output
dropped from 6.6 to 5.0V. I don't know why. Both regulators check out
separately. I am going to try it with two separate supplies I think.
Also how could this be a problem of what buffer I used?

Thank you very much for your help!
Josh Koffman
KILLspamjoshyKILLspamspammb.sympatico.ca

2000\04\22@205616 by Wagner Lipnharski

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74LS06 is a 30V open collector output, supply current is 31mA!!!, while
the 74LS05 is lower voltage (5V) open collector output, its supply
current is only 2.4mA.  The biggest difference between TTL and LS units,
is the fanin/fanout, means that the input/output impedances for the TTL
are lower than the LS, of course it generate a power hungry
qualification for the TTL units.  In most cases (not all), you can use a
LS in place of a plain TTL, by including a pull up resistor at the LS
output (around 2k2), while the input is not always that need a pull-down
resistor (to simulate the TTL lower impedance) around 15k.

TTL, LS or HCT at the PC parallel port, will work a little bit
different, mainly regarding to sharp pulses and capacitances on the
cable, etc. You will not see HCT units at the parallel port output, and
in some pc cards you can see plain TTL as the output, just to satisfy
some external low impedances circuits (old printers and other fancy
devices).

Using a different impedance chip (TTL instead LS or vice-versa), can
cause problems with bounced signals and "ringing" noises. Some high
speed applications as programmers and eprom emulators, can get some
problems mainly at the "clock" pin.  In some cases you need to "play"
with a capacitor from the Clock pin to ground (your circuit side), start
with a 30pf and go up to 20nF, you can find one that "miraculously"
makes your unit works nice.

It depends on lots of things, even ground loops between your PC and the
external device, up to fluorescent lights installed right above the
parallel cable...

I got a T-Shirt from the club saying "PUT A CAPACITOR ON IT".

Wagner.

Don McKenzie wrote:
>
> Ken Kaarvik wrote:
> >
> > > My +5V is more like +6.6V and my
> > > +13V is around +14.5V. I built the power supply section exactly as
> > > described. In fact I built it twice as I was sure I had burned one of
> > > the regulators, but I still get these voltage readings

To make sure your voltmeter is operating nice (gross calibration check),
measure a 9V (new) battery. Looks like your voltmeter is uncalibrated
indicating more than actual voltage. If it is the case, the 9V battery
would read around 12V, considering your misread 5V as 6.6V.

{Quote hidden}

2000\04\23@003400 by Josh Koffman

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> > My +5V is more like +6.6V and my
> > +13V is around +14.5V. I built the power supply section exactly as
> > described. In fact I built it twice as I was sure I had burned one of
> > the regulators, but I still get these voltage readings
>
> These are the results I had too when I used a 74HC05. It has a protection
> diode on the output.
> Make sure you're using an "LS" part (74LS05).


Ken,
I am using the 74LS05. And the power supply is giving those voltages
even when disconnected from the rest of the circuit. I will be posting
more in a few minutes...


Thank you,
Josh Koffman
spamBeGonejoshyspamBeGonespammb.sympatico.ca

2000\04\23@003820 by Josh Koffman

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Don,

> I hope you are talking about the PICALLW file, or the windows version.
> set the hardware up to p16pro first.
> you can wander you way through the on line help, and it gives you
> details to run the test program and toggle the printer port bits for
> voltage testing and operation.

I am talking about the windows version. I am running it under win95 just
to test the hardware. I know the setup screen where you can toggle the
bits. I can turn on and off the two LEDs. The problem is I don't know if
any of the other bits are working as they should. I guess what I am
looking for is for instance, test pin X on the socket. When you activate
bit X, pin X should be +5V. I hope that makes some sense.

> You don't need the accuracy of 317s or 1% resistors, these voltages
> aren't critical, but the measurements you gave almost sounds like the
> meter is faulty.
>
> I mean a 7805 should give you an output of +/- 5%. In fact, i have found
> 4.9 to 5.0 is general with the regs I get.

I suppose I should have elaborated. The 7805 only put out 6.6 volts when
the 7808 was also in the circuit. As soon as I pulled the 7808, the 7805
immediately dropped back to 5 volts. Both regulators check out
separately. I will be posting more in a few minutes. I hope you can take
the time to read it...Thank you.

Thank you for all your help!
Josh Koffman
TakeThisOuTjoshyEraseMEspamspam_OUTmb.sympatico.ca

2000\04\23@142138 by Dwayne Reid

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<x-flowed>At 11:26 PM 4/22/00 -0500, Josh Koffman wrote:
>I suppose I should have elaborated. The 7805 only put out 6.6 volts when
>the 7808 was also in the circuit. As soon as I pulled the 7808, the 7805
>immediately dropped back to 5 volts. Both regulators check out
>separately.

I have not seen your circuit, but I think I know what is going on.  Tell me
- do you have the GND lead of the 7808 connected to the +5V rail?  If so,
what you are seeing is the effect of the ground current of the 7808 raising
the +5V supply.  The cure is simple: add a 1K resistor from 5V to
gnd.  Your voltages should drop to their expected values.

dwayne




Dwayne Reid   <RemoveMEdwaynerspamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)

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2000\04\23@142549 by David VanHorn

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Hash: SHA1

At 12:13 PM 4/23/00 -0600, Dwayne Reid wrote:
>At 11:26 PM 4/22/00 -0500, Josh Koffman wrote:
>>I suppose I should have elaborated. The 7805 only put out 6.6 volts when
>>the 7808 was also in the circuit. As soon as I pulled the 7808, the 7805
>>immediately dropped back to 5 volts. Both regulators check out
>>separately.


I have seen this in cases where a second supply (like your 8V supply) was
feeding into the +5V through protection diodes on a chip..

- --
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2000\04\23@160333 by Wagner Lipnharski

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This is a common mistake to not assembly the exact components from a
design. For example, the LED (with a resistor) connected to the output
voltage of power supply. Some people think it is a fancy non-sense
hardware.  They think it is not necessary and just don't assembly it. In
some cases they are correct, but they need to check everything to see if
removing that LED it will not change something. At the first sight it
will not, but if that LED is the only existent "load" to the power
supply output, it will make a difference not to install it.

Some PIC programmers have LEDs for the 5V and 13.5V, in some cases not
installing them can create the below effect of increasing +5V.

Another common mistake is not installing the 0.1uF decoupling capacitors
in a digital circuit. I already debugged a digital board with serious
problems, it was missing all the 6 decoupling capacitors planned to be
there.

Wagner

Dwayne Reid wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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