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'Open letter to Russell M'
2007\10\15@115347 by Cedric Chang

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Some of us listen to you.

Best

Cedric

2007\10\15@125635 by Peter Todd

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On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 09:52:09AM -0600, Cedric Chang wrote:
>
> Some of us listen to you.

Some don't. I'm normally the type of person who will get into big
arguments about stuff like global warming. But Russell's obviously made
up his mind, and no amounts of facts will change it. So why bother? It's
boring, futile and I've got to much schoolwork to bother.

For the record, my views are roughly those held by James. But I'm pretty
much silent on the issue, because there isn't much real debate going on.


Not that I won't get into arguments with Russell on other topics. :)

- --
http://petertodd.org
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2007\10\15@132132 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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>-----Original Message-----
>From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu]
>On Behalf Of Peter Todd
>Sent: 15 October 2007 17:56
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: Open letter to Russell M
>
>
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>
>On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 09:52:09AM -0600, Cedric Chang wrote:
>>
>> Some of us listen to you.
>
>Some don't. I'm normally the type of person who will get into
>big arguments about stuff like global warming. But Russell's
>obviously made up his mind, and no amounts of facts will
>change it.

Perhaps due to the rather large deficit of "facts" on this issue?

Regards

Mike

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2007\10\15@141431 by Peter Todd

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On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 06:21:49PM +0100, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
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My point being, that he, and you, don't consider the facts on the issue
to be valid at all. How am I to ever argue against that?

It's not a rational debate at that point, so why bother?

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2007\10\15@165624 by Bob Axtell

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Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
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No facts are needed. When I see Panama City, Florida go below sea level,
I will become
concerned. Until then, the whole thing  is just a waste of time.

--Bob Axtell

2007\10\16@035226 by Michael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

fact
-noun
something which is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information.

So far this definition does not apply to GW.  Most of the alleged facts regarding anthropomorphic GW are hypotheses at the moment, judged by normal scientific standards.

This is the exact same reason that rational debate IS useful. It is far less rational to debate about something that is 100% conclusively proven one way or the other!

Regards

Mike

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2007\10\16@050634 by Russell McMahon

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> ... But Russell's obviously made
> up his mind, and no amounts of facts will change it.

It's rather sad that I've put the effort I have so far into this to
get that sort of impression.

As I've said, my *SOLE* agendaless aim is to know the truth, that it
may set me free.

I don't 'make up my mind' on such things.
I listen to what is said, listen to how people say they have used the
tools that they always use to analyse things and use the resultant
data input to better inform me as to what reality probably is, or how
probable it is that various interpretations or impressions reflect
reality.

When I see the majority (they tell me) of the scientific community
involved in a particular subject

- all say in unison "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain",

- AND all throw their usual scientific tools and tests out of their
cot and refuse to play with them as they always have on other
occasions,

- AND tell me that they are in fact throwing dice that make entirely
good sense to them,

- BUT they throw them where we can't see them

- AND they won't tell us what the dice actually  read

- AND they all say 'things are marvellous here, we're all having a
great time, please send more money'

- AND when the umbrella organisation does in fact front up to some
extent and make comments about what the dice really read

- BUT all the usually discerning engineers and scientists and
statisticians outside the discipline concerned go 'wow' that's great
then' and actually publish their actually meaningful albeit woolyly
put figures which can be quite clearly seen to not pass by any normal
scientific standard the toy test that the scientists have decided to
throw away on this occasion for whatever reason.

- AND all said engineers etc al and the press and all reinterpret the
statements as if they have meaning that the umbrella organisation KNOW
they haven't got

- BUT the umbrella orgn and all the toy tossers don't say - 'er, well,
actually, no, that's just English but you've misunderstood our
wording' but instead say amongst themselves (presumably) 'phew, they
bought it',

- THEN

I'm just the wee'est bit sad when people say

   > ... But Russell's obviously made
   > up his mind, and no amounts of facts will change it.

Look at the science, such as they'll show you.
Turn the words, such as they will tell you back into standard science
speak.
Listen to what is actually being promulgated.

What is being said?

Clue, based entirely on what James has posted in the past while from
IPCC and if you like , anything whatsoever that you can find on the
IPCC site, if your translation of the

       ******************  FACTS  *********************

that they are saying
doesn't sound something like

   "There is no statistically significant indication that
anthropogenic action is responsible for climate change / global
warming"

then you should go back and check your calculations.

How it is that things they would expect from a high school senior
maths class seem to escape the vast majority of the world's population
escapes me.

_____________

Is their AGW? - there may be.

Should we be working out what we should do in case it's true?
Of course!

Should we treat the world well?
Are you mad?

Do we understand stats, science or political speak any more?
Apparently not.

_____________

More anon maybe, as I've been saying awhile.
Very very very low sleep of late as I plough towards a vvvvvv major
deadline.
Almost there.
Looking good.
Stay tuned.

Maybe take a refresher basic stats course while you're waiting :-)




       Russell



- BUT


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