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PICList Thread
'New PICs and Architectures'
1997\08\09@225121 by myke predko

flavicon
face
Hi,

This is really a question for the Microchip engineers.

When I look through the "Future Products" .pdf I was wondering what kind of
architecture is going to be used for some of the devices.

For example, the 16C179 seems to be a High-End (17Cxx) Architecture, but I
was wondering how so much "SRAM" (File Registers) are implemented.  In
"Advance Information", there is very little information on this.  I'm also
curious about the "Software Stack".

When will more information be available on this?

myke

"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe sky diving isn't the sport for
you" - Steve Smith

1997\08\10@090638 by Mike Smith

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face
---Original Message-----
From: myke predko <spam_OUTmykeTakeThisOuTspamPASSPORT.CA>
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sunday, 10 August 1997 12:22
Subject: New PICs and Architectures



{Quote hidden}

Did you notice the 18 month leadtime before *samples* were going to be
available?  This is the hardware equivalent of vapourware.  I mean, if
Microsoft stated that their next os, lets call it, um, Washington, would run
on a 386, would support all 95, 98, and NT 5 features, and offer voice
recognition and be fully object-oriented, but wouldn't have any betas
available til 1st 1/4 '99, how much credence would you give them?  Given the
severe lack of info in 'Future Products', I'd write it off as damage
control...

MikeS
<.....mikesmith_ozKILLspamspam.....relaymail.net>

If MicroChip disagree, I'd love to see info disproving my statement.
Leadtime still speaks volumes, though.

1997\08\10@164104 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>Did you notice the 18 month leadtime before *samples* were going to be
>available?  This is the hardware equivalent of vapourware.  I mean, if
>Microsoft stated that their next os, lets call it, um, Washington, would run
>on a 386, would support all 95, 98, and NT 5 features, and offer voice
>recognition and be fully object-oriented, but wouldn't have any betas
>available til 1st 1/4 '99, how much credence would you give them?  Given the
>severe lack of info in 'Future Products', I'd write it off as damage
>control...

Please don't misunderstand me, but as I recall Win95 was originally
supposed to ship in '93.

If "Washington" were scheduled for 1Q99, my guess is they're already "95%
done" in Redmond.  (That's 1999 I presume.  If 2099, they're almost done
with specs <G>)

However, given the relatively low complexity of the PIC line, I'd agree
that 18 months means somebody had a jr engr make a wish list based upon AVR
features, had it sanitized by a more sr engr, and then published it as
future products.

Knowing a little about what's really coming, though, makes me sit here
patiently...

Like most of us, I have my own PIC wish list.  It's been shared in several
places.  Anybody check out the new Scenix PIC clone http://www.scenix.com
or http://www.parallaxinc.com

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\08\10@214923 by Antti Lukats

flavicon
face
[snip]
>Like most of us, I have my own PIC wish list.  It's been shared in several
>places.  Anybody check out the new Scenix PIC clone http://www.scenix.com
>or http://www.parallaxinc.com

Hey do you know more about the scenix.com

their web pages is ____empty____ (checked 1 min ago)
I don't see a point to redirect people to such places.?

antti


No Limits                                 Go To
Basics of AVR                              AVR
AVRBASIC         http://www.avrbasic.com          Born for Basic

Grand opening in August.
Watch out for first week offers.

1997\08\11@004803 by blunn

flavicon
face
Bob Lunn
08/11/97 02:49 PM


I thought the list might be interested in a brief summary of
the microcontroller section of the Microchip 'Future Products'
document.

8-pin/12-bit    16 bytes of data eeprom

8-pin/14-bit    16 bytes of data eeprom
eprom            4 ch x 8-bit A/D

8-pin/14-bit    16 bytes of data eeprom
flash            4 ch x 10-bit A/D
              serial I/O (uart?)

14-pin/14-bit   note the new package option
eprom            internal 4MHz oscillator
              4 ch x 10-bit A/D
              16-bit timer (runs during sleep)
              capture/compare/pwm module

18-pin/14-bit   128 bytes of data eeprom
eprom            analog comparators

18-pin/14-bit   2k bytes of program eeprom
flash            128 bytes of data eeprom
              internal oscillator (4MHz?)
              analog comparators
              4 ch x 10-bit A/D
              16-bit timer (runs during sleep)
              capture/compare/pwm module
              usart

20-pin/14-bit   note the new package option
flash            4k bytes of program eeprom
              128 bytes of data eeprom
              internal oscillator (4MHz?)
              4x PLL (for oscillator?)
              programmable gain amp (for oscillator?)
              4 ch (2 ch diff) x 10-bit A/D
              16-bit timer (runs during sleep)
              capture/compare/pwm module
              usart

28 & 40-pin     internal oscillator (4MHz?)
eprom            5 ch, 8 ch, 11 ch x 10-bit A/D
              16-bit timer (runs during sleep)
              8-bit timer (in addition)
              capture/compare/pwm module
              usart

28 & 40-pin     8k bytes of program eeprom
flash            256 bytes of data eeprom
              processor read/write to program eeprom
              internal oscillator (4MHz?)
              10-bit A/D (runs during sleep)
              analog comparator
              16-bit timer (runs during sleep)
              8-bit timer (in addition)
              capture/compare/pwm module
              usart
              parallel slave port


Notes:

    There seems to be a distinction between the 4MHz RC
    oscillator used on the 8-pin/12-bit cores, and the
    "precision" R/C oscillator used on the 8-pin/14-bit
    cores.

    There are some curious references to 'multi-speed
    clocking' (eg: 16F825).

    Some of the new flash parts (though only in the 28-
    and 40-pin packages?) support 5V only writes to
    program eeprom.  This would appear to allow remote
    in-circuit programming, and self-modifying code.

    Note the new 14-pin package 16C471/472.

    Note the new 20-pin package 16F787 (this is the one
    with the PLL to give one instruction cycle per clock
    cycle?).  This is a _powerful_ looking chip.

    The operating speed of most 'flash' based devices is
    increased to 20MHz.

    A new family of devices designated 16C1xx is announced.
    This has a 16-bit core like the 17Cxxx family, though
    any actual similarity between the two is impossible
    to determine.  This new family is distinguished by a
    'C-compiler optimized instruction set', a 'software
    stack capability', and an 'independant 32 kHz timer
    oscillator'.  These devices all feature large memory
    sizes: 8k to 16k program memory; and 512 to 1536 bytes
    data memory.  The stand-out member of the family is
    the 16C185 which 'implements FULL CAN model'.

    Two new members of the 17Cxxx family are announced
    that support IIC master mode (17C762/766).  However,
    these are only available in surface mount packages.

___Bob

1997\08\11@005601 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Mike Smith wrote:
>
>
> Did you notice the 18 month leadtime before *samples* were going to be
> available?  This is the hardware equivalent of vapourware.  I mean, if
> Microsoft stated that their next os, lets call it, um, Washington, would run
> on a 386, would support all 95, 98, and NT 5 features, and offer voice
> recognition and be fully object-oriented, but wouldn't have any betas
> available til 1st 1/4 '99, how much credence would you give them?  Given the
> severe lack of info in 'Future Products', I'd write it off as damage
> control...

G'day mate!

I cannot agree more. I think they are petrified of the AVR (have a look
at
Mchip's home page). It looks like the days of micromonopoly are over...

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
EraseMEtjaartspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTwasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\08\11@011445 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
---Original Message-----
From: Andy Kunz <mtdesignspamspam_OUTFAST.NET>
To: @spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Monday, 11 August 1997 06:12
Subject: Re: New PICs and Architectures



>>Did you notice the 18 month leadtime before *samples* were going to be
>>available?  This is the hardware equivalent of vapourware.  I mean, if
>>Microsoft stated that their next os, lets call it, um, Washington, would
run
>>on a 386, would support all 95, 98, and NT 5 features, and offer voice
>>recognition and be fully object-oriented, but wouldn't have any betas
>>available til 1st 1/4 '99, how much credence would you give them?  Given
the
>>severe lack of info in 'Future Products', I'd write it off as damage
>>control...
>
>Please don't misunderstand me, but as I recall Win95 was originally
>supposed to ship in '93.
>
>If "Washington" were scheduled for 1Q99, my guess is they're already "95%
>done" in Redmond.  (That's 1999 I presume.  If 2099, they're almost done
>with specs <G>)

I was using it as a patently vapourware situation...

>
>However, given the relatively low complexity of the PIC line, I'd agree
>that 18 months means somebody had a jr engr make a wish list based upon AVR
>features, had it sanitized by a more sr engr, and then published it as
>future products.
>
>Knowing a little about what's really coming, though, makes me sit here
>patiently...

Patient?  Me?  I want it NOW!!

>
>Like most of us, I have my own PIC wish list.  It's been shared in several
>places.  Anybody check out the new Scenix PIC clone http://www.scenix.com
>or http://www.parallaxinc.com

The former is marked as -under construction- the latter says its scheduled
for release (press?) on the 22 this month.  The Parallax support info looks
intriguing, though.  (Rather interestingly, if you search for keyword
'scenix' in a search engine, you get more data -

Product | Scenix8S Scenix8P Scenix16 Scenix32
=======================================
======================================== ====================== Data Width |
8-bit 8-bit 16-bit 32-bit Features | CISC, 1-bit Serial CISC, 8-bit Parallel
RISC, 2-Stage .....

Interesting, wot?  Does anyone know how to access a web site with the same
permissions as a search engine?

MikeS
<RemoveMEmikesmith_ozTakeThisOuTspamrelaymail.net>

1997\08\11@011653 by tjaart

flavicon
face
blunn@KEYCORP.COM.AU wrote:
>
> Bob Lunn
> 08/11/97 02:49 PM
>
> I thought the list might be interested in a brief summary of
> the microcontroller section of the Microchip 'Future Products'
> document.

What I'd *really* like to see is a list where they state which PIC
the 'future' chip will be based on. It took me ages to discover that
the 16C77 will be available in a 'flash' version (16C877).

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
spamBeGonetjaartspamBeGonespamwasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\08\11@032715 by blunn

flavicon
face
Bob Lunn
08/11/97 05:26 PM


> What I'd *really* like to see is a list where they
> state which PIC the 'future' chip will be based on.
> It took me ages to discover that the 16C77 will be
> available in a 'flash' version (16C877).

    In those cases where the data sheet includes
    a 'package options' section you'll find a note
    like "footprint compatible with...".

    In those cases where the data sheet includes
    a 'pin diagram' section they seem to assume
    that you'll compare pinouts and "reverse
    engineer"!

___Bob

1997\08\11@035208 by tjaart

flavicon
face
blunn@KEYCORP.COM.AU wrote:
>
> Bob Lunn
> 08/11/97 05:26 PM
>
> > What I'd *really* like to see is a list where they
> > state which PIC the 'future' chip will be based on.
> > It took me ages to discover that the 16C77 will be
> > available in a 'flash' version (16C877).
>
>      In those cases where the data sheet includes
>      a 'package options' section you'll find a note
>      like "footprint compatible with...".
>
>      In those cases where the data sheet includes
>      a 'pin diagram' section they seem to assume
>      that you'll compare pinouts and "reverse
>      engineer"!

That's what I thought. Problem is, all the PIC with the same
number of IO pins also share the same footprint...

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
TakeThisOuTtjaartEraseMEspamspam_OUTwasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\08\11@045305 by blunn

flavicon
face
Bob Lunn
08/11/97 06:53 PM


{Quote hidden}

    Umm, no...  By 'footprint compatible' they mean
    something more than "your circuit wont blow up"!

    They mean that a comparator input is still a
    comparator input, and T0CLKIN is just that.

    Thus, the 16C772 is 'footprint compatible with
    popular PIC16C72'.  I take this to mean that the
    16C772 is a pin-for-pin plug-in replacement for
    the 'C72 (though the s/w may need to be changed).

___Bob

1997\08\11@081551 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
At 02:42 PM 8/10/97 -0300, you wrote:
>[snip]
>>Like most of us, I have my own PIC wish list.  It's been shared in several
>>places.  Anybody check out the new Scenix PIC clone http://www.scenix.com
>>or http://www.parallaxinc.com
>
>Hey do you know more about the scenix.com

Got my information via fax.  Sorry, dude!

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\08\11@123644 by nvdw

flavicon
face
Mike Smith wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Hear Hear...

Hooray for the cynics...

Nic
;-)

1997\08\11@135354 by Ravindra Divekar

picon face
I think a new 16C84 with a built in

4x4 key matrix scanner (74C922) and a
led display driver (MAX7219) would

do extremely well in the market.




-- Ravindra

1997\08\11@150525 by John Payson

picon face
> I think a new 16C84 with a built in
>
> 4x4 key matrix scanner (74C922) and a
> led display driver (MAX7219) would
>
> do extremely well in the market.

Any PIC with at least 24 I/O pins should work for this application, though
eight pins may need transistors to "boost" their outputs.  Other than boosting
the sinking abilities of eight I/O pins, what else would you want as features?

1997\08\11@151910 by Ravindra Divekar

picon face
(1)
Its more than just extra I/O pins.

You overlook the fact that for most
low-end applications, a microcontroller
spends precious clocks and program memory
to scan and debounce a keypad, or send
data to a multiplexed LED display.
Just imagine, if the hardware takes care of
this, the cpu can take care of more
number-crunching tasks, and even the interrupts
can be put to better use.

(2)
another product i was going to suggest:

a PIC-Stamp without BASIC:

the Basic stamps are such a good idea,
because then you dont need to add a crystal oscillator
externally.
But the basic interpreter makes them costly, especially
for people who would rather program in assembly, than basic.
Imagine a BS-2 from Parallax without basic, but at half the price.
what a wonderful idea !!

-Ravindra.


{Quote hidden}

1997\08\11@165402 by John Payson

picon face
> (1)
> Its more than just extra I/O pins.
>
> You overlook the fact that for most
> low-end applications, a microcontroller
> spends precious clocks and program memory
> to scan and debounce a keypad, or send
> data to a multiplexed LED display.
> Just imagine, if the hardware takes care of
> this, the cpu can take care of more
> number-crunching tasks, and even the interrupts
> can be put to better use.

Keeping a display and keyboard scan running at 100Hz each requires the
expenditure of less than 10,000 cycles per second.  If you don't have
enough CPU cycles available, boosting the speed of the chip is cheaper
than adding extra hardware.  Given that neither display scanning nor
keyboard scanning is particularly time-critical, I don't see much bene-
fit from adding automatic display scanning hardware (*).

(*) For an LCD driver, automatic scanning may allow the display scan to be
run while the CPU is asleep, resulting in substantial power savings versus
a CPU-driven scan.  LED's, however, are so power-hungry that saving 2mA by
shutting down the CPU is a non-issue if the LED's are running.

{Quote hidden}

Other companies do make such things.  Alternatively, some of the newer PICs
will have a built-in oscillator for precisely that reason.

1997\08\11@172242 by Kalle Pihlajasaari

flavicon
face
Hi Ravindra,

> But the basic interpreter makes them costly, especially
> for people who would rather program in assembly, than basic.
> Imagine a BS-2 from Parallax without basic, but at half the price.
> what a wonderful idea !!

Buy the Interpreter IC from Parallax for about US$18 and then
get some PIC.002 SimmSticks for US$ 6 and a few other bits and
bobs and make your own Stamp2's.

Check out the Silicon Studio Site for more details on the PIC.002

  http://www.sistudio.com

See Parallax site for quantity pricing, you have to poke around a bit

  http://www.parallaxinc.com

Cheers
--
Kalle Pihlajasaari   RemoveMEkallespam_OUTspamKILLspamip.co.za   http://www.ip.co.za/ip
Interface Products   P O Box 15775, DOORNFONTEIN, 2028, South Africa
+ 27 (11) 402-7750   Fax: 402-7751    http://www.ip.co.za/people/kalle

DonTronics, Silicon Studio and Wirz Electronics uP Product Dealer

1997\08\12@013556 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Ravindra Divekar wrote:
>
>
> the Basic stamps are such a good idea,
> because then you dont need to add a crystal oscillator
> externally.
> But the basic interpreter makes them costly, especially
> for people who would rather program in assembly, than basic.
> Imagine a BS-2 from Parallax without basic, but at half the price.
> what a wonderful idea !!

Check out http://www.parallaxinc.com I think Microchip are going
see some healthy competition. I hope I don't get sued, but here's a
snippet form their claim :

Rocklin, California, August 6, 1997 - Parallax, Inc. announced the
"SX Key", an integrated development system which significantly
advances development tool technology. The development system was
designed for use with Scenix Semiconductor's new SX 8-bit
microcontroller. The new low cost micro is EEPROM based and, at
50 MIPS, holds title as the fastest 8-bit micro in the world.

Note : EEPROM based *AND* 50 MIPS! Wow! From the rest of the
anouncement it seems as if there is an on-board ICE (like Motorola)
and Zero programmer components (I could be wrong).

It remains to be seen if the Scenix vapourware has more substance
than the Microchip vapourware...

Perhaps we will see a "The truth about Scenix" section next to
the "The truth about the AVR" section on Microchip's homepage.
How very, very, very immature.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
RemoveMEtjaartTakeThisOuTspamspamwasp.co.za
________________________________________________________
|        WASP International   http://wasp.co.za          |
|   R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development   |
|Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer|
|Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686  |  Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973 |
|             WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E             |
|________________________________________________________|

1997\08\12@085249 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
----Original Message-----
From: Tjaart van der Walt <EraseMEtjaartspamspamspamBeGonewasp.co.za>
To: RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTSTOPspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, 12 August 1997 15:08
Subject: Re: New PICs and Architectures

<snip>

{Quote hidden}

Roll on the 22nd!

>
>It remains to be seen if the Scenix vapourware has more substance
>than the Microchip vapourware...

I did a search on Scenix in the usenet.  Turns out they were hiring in June
last year -
<<
A Very Successful Venture Financed Start-up Company in Santa Clara CA is
looking
for TOP Notch Engineers. Currently the Company has the following Engineering
openings: Design Engineer----------------------You will be responsible for
logic
and verification, as well as some circuit design and place and route for
functional units of a mixed-signal chip.Position requires a background in
logic
design, circuit design and computer architecture.Experience with
Verilog/VHDL,
programming in C and/or Place and Route experienceis a plus. An MSEE or
equivalent is required. Fresh graduates are welcomed to apply.Principal
Design
Engineer--------------------------------Will be a leading member of the team
designing a high performance mixed-signal chip fromlogic design through
circuit
design and layout/place and route.Position requires experience in logic
design,
circuit design and a background in computer architecture. The ability to
make
detailed logic and circuit tradeoffs for performance and power is key.
Experience with Verilog/VHDL is a must, programming in C and/or Place and
Route
experience is an advantage. Responsibilities will include identification of
critical paths in the logic design, creation andtiming of gate and
transistor
level models, and investigation of logic and circuit designalternatives to
meet
performance goals. Candidate should have 5+ years of industryexperience with
microprocessor/microcontroller development experience. A strong background
in
circuitsand physical design understanding to make tradeoffs is required.
MSEE or
equivalent is required.Mask Designer------------------You will be
responsible
for mask design of a mixed-signal chip.Position requires experience in
standard
cell and digital logic layout.Experience with EEPROM, FLASH, EPROM, ROM,
RAM,
and ANALOG layout is a  plus.Candidate should have 1+ years of industry
experience.
>> - found using DejaNews, keyword Scenix, using 'old' database

Look sort of familiar for a PIC clone?

>
>Perhaps we will see a "The truth about Scenix" section next to
>the "The truth about the AVR" section on Microchip's homepage.
>How very, very, very immature.

Haven't they heard that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? <g>
Seriously, the extra competition (Atmel and Scenix) has to be good for us,
both in terms of innovation and cost.

MikeS
<spamBeGonemikesmith_ozSTOPspamspamEraseMErelaymail.net>

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