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'My opinion on pirating electronic cad software'
1999\03\09@030407 by Ry Lato

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OK, there seems to be a big controversy on this mailing list
about using pirated Electronics CAD software.
Lets put things into perspective. Many of us on this list are hobbyists
and or students. We cannot afford to spend the $1000-$10,000
costs of some of these CAD packages. We would not by the software
anyway, we simply cannot afford it. So who are we stealing food from?
There are limitations that we have by not having a registered licence.
For one thing, we are not entitled to technical support from the
software maker. The bottom line is this. As long as no one is profiting
from any design made with any of these "cracked" CAD packages, I don't
have a problem with it. In fact it benefits the Electronics CAD
companies. If I use a cracked version of Orcad for a student project or
for a hobbyist project, I may get used to working with it. I then may
choose ORCAD when I work in industry or create a electronics related
business, in where using pirated software becomes an unnecessary risk.
In fact Protel saw this years ago and made EASYTRAX available for free.
Its not a matter or right or wrong. Its putting everything into logical
perspective rather than self righteous morality.





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1999\03\09@045932 by Mark Willis

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Please consider;

 MIT owns the hardware/software used to run this list - They can shut
down the PICList in a minute, if they don't like what we do with it.

 I seriously doubt MIT wishes to be dragged into any possible lawsuit,
bad media publicity, etc. from a few on this list discussing Pirated
Software.

 Would it improve that same poor students' situation, if this list was
closed by MIT due to users abusing the list?  Anyone own a spare T1 line
we can move the list to when it's closed down, and have the $$$ it takes
to buy list server software?

 Let's just NOT go there!

 Cadsoft wants $49 for companies using the software in question, free
for student evaluation;  Ivex's software's FREE, for the basic software
up to so many pins IIRC, etc. etc.  So on what's been posted to the
list, the "cost" argument is completely irrelevant IMHO - You can go to
APCircuits & get their free tools & use them, you can use Circad's demo
for free, IVEX's software starts off free, or Eagle Light (for FREE, or
pay $49 for it if you're a company).  There are many, MANY other pieces
of CAD software out there for free or low cost.  You mention EasyTrax as
free - then want me to believe that it's impossible for a poor student
engineer to have a CAD package?  Pretty strange logic.

 Yes, some of these have limitations.  (You want to learn electronics?
Learn to "Divide and conquer" - build sub-assemblies with Ivex's
software, that you can attach together, etc.  This whole list's about
learning to use your brain, not your larcenous instincts!  <G>)

 Yes, those're not "ideal" software, it's not OrCAD or whatever;  I
learned using an engineering pad & pencils, you can use that too, so
what if there're more expensive ways to do things?  You CAN get tools
for free, for any "hobbyist" project I've ever done.

 If you're making an over 8-layer board, over 11"x17" in size, what
sort of "hobbyist" *are* you?  Circad's Dos demo version does something
like that, IIRC <G>  I'm sure it's not the only software, that capable,
out there.

 YES, the "Dream software" like (my at one time favorite) Pads PCB and
OrCAD, isn't free;  By this same argument, is it OK for me to steal a
brand new, very expensive SMT soldering station from the local
electronics store showroom, 'cuz they have many of 'em and bought them
at wholesale, this one was a demo anyways, I want/need one & have none,
even though I could use my current soldering iron & work for long enough
to make enough money to buy it in a couple months? - Suuure.  You'll
have a hard time convincing me on this one, I believe.

 OTOH, questions like "I'm a poor hobbyist, how can I get a good
working CAD package" are quite OK by most members of the list, I think
("OT" but extremely relevant and quite acceptable, IMHO.)  Price making
that PC Board you just gotta have Orcad and PADS for, then tell me again
that $49 is too much for a hobbyist to spend...

 This argument and the cracks posts are "upsetting the denizens", so to
speak;  I'd like the list to be mostly ON TOPIC, and about PICs.  Anyone
who wants to discuss cracks, "warez" etc. can go to usenet, or make
their own mailing list, or do it in e-mail off list, or whatever - I'm
not saying they cannot talk about those things - I *AM* saying that:
*This* list isn't the right place for talking about cracks.

 I know all about being a poor engineer (I'm sure ALL of us know all
this.  Too intimately.)  That's where many/most of us started;  I think
you'll find VERY few of the PICList members are against poor, starving
young (or old <G>) engineers getting what they need to have, to get more
income - AND, they're also against losing this valuable (to ALL of us!)
resource called the PICList.  If the PICList is valuable to you,
*please* do not risk its loss by doing things that may cause its
destruction.

 I think this is what's bothering the "natives" here - knowing that the
list can be shut down for abuse, when they themselves have gone through
the same thing, with far less resources available, and managed to get
through without causing destruction of someone else's e-mail resources.
If you don't value the PICList, why are you on here?  (Just to scroll
your Inbox?  <G>)

 And if you're a poor (old or young) engineer in the Seattle area sans
computer, or sans internet connection, gads, send me e-mail, and I'll
help <G>  (I've thought a web page dedicated on how to shoestring
engineer your way to making money would be quite a hit, there's a
Blacksmithing to make your own shop series like that - why not a "Pic
your way into Electronics" series, starting with logic probe & ending
with 16-channel DSO's etc.?  <G>)

 Mark

Ry Lato wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\09@065614 by Pavel Korensky

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At 01:58 9.3.1999 -0800, you wrote:
>  YES, the "Dream software" like (my at one time favorite) Pads PCB and
>OrCAD, isn't free;  By this same argument, is it OK for me to steal a
>brand new, very expensive SMT soldering station from the local
>electronics store showroom, 'cuz they have many of 'em and bought them
>at wholesale, this one was a demo anyways, I want/need one & have none,
>even though I could use my current soldering iron & work for long enough
>to make enough money to buy it in a couple months? - Suuure.  You'll
>have a hard time convincing me on this one, I believe.

Please, do not use this kind of examples. Arguments like "copying software
is like stealing a car" is simply invalid. When I will steal the car, the
legal owner will have nothing. This is not the case with the software.

IMHO 99% of peoples usign cracked packages (CADs, 3D graphic etc.) are not
deciding if they should buy the program or grab a cracked copy. They simply
cannot even dream about buying those programs.

Hobbyist using cracked OrCAD ? Why not. If he is able to use the program
without manuals etc.

On the other side, if some electronic company buy one OrCAD license and use
crack for distribution of this software to 20 other seats, this is a problem.

IMHO, it is better to either not respond to cracks related messages, or
respond something like "Hey, please post those messages in related USENET
group, not in the PICLIST".

Best regards

PavelK




**************************************************************************
* Pavel KorenskyÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* DATOR3 LAN Services spol. s r.o.ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* Styblova 13, 140 00, Prague 4, Czech Republic      ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
*ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* PGP Key fingerprint:Ê F3 E1 AE BC 34 18 CB A6Ê CC D0 DA 9E 79 03 41 D4 *
*ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* SUMMA SCIENTIA - NIHIL SCIREÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
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1999\03\09@073815 by kypros.vassiliou

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Pavel Korensky wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Hi,
My opinion on Cracked software is that a Student or a Hobbyist does not
harm anybody, provided they don't earn any mony from that.They normally
cannot affort to buy it. On the contrast, they help the software house
to sell more in the near future because these people will sugest for
future purchase the software that they are familiar with.

Bill Gates, of Microsoft, said some day in the past that he is very
happy that so many people are using his software even in pirate copies.
That proves his software worth to evaluate and/or use, it is better that
the software of other companies etc etc.

These are not the exact words but the meaning is the same.
What I personaly beleive is that - first, it is illegal to use pirate
software to make money, and second, we do have to support the smaller
companies and buy/register the cheap shareware software they provide.

Anyway, the whole matter should not be descused in this list, normally.
It gives unnecessary trafic to the server.

Regards
Kypros

1999\03\09@092839 by jamesp

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AMEN...

{Quote hidden}

1999\03\09@094948 by Scott Dattalo

face
flavicon
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On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Ry Lato wrote:

> OK, there seems to be a big controversy on this mailing list
> about using pirated Electronics CAD software.
> Lets put things into perspective. Many of us on this list are hobbyists
> and or students. We cannot afford to spend the $1000-$10,000
> costs of some of these CAD packages. We would not by the software
> anyway, we simply cannot afford it. So who are we stealing food from?
> There are limitations that we have by not having a registered licence.
> For one thing, we are not entitled to technical support from the
> software maker. The bottom line is this. As long as no one is profiting
> from any design made with any of these "cracked" CAD packages, I don't
> have a problem with it. In fact it benefits the Electronics CAD
> companies. If I use a cracked version of Orcad for a student project or
> for a hobbyist project, I may get used to working with it. I then may
> choose ORCAD when I work in industry or create a electronics related
> business, in where using pirated software becomes an unnecessary risk.
> In fact Protel saw this years ago and made EASYTRAX available for free.
> Its not a matter or right or wrong. Its putting everything into logical
> perspective rather than self righteous morality.

If you plan to crack ORCAD and to get hooked on it, you probably deserve
what you get. Putting it politely, ORCAD is not a decent EDA package.
(I'll be glad to tell you why.)

If you want something for nothing - you're not going to get it. If you
want something for free (as in no money) then you should seriously
consider gEDA - the GNU EDA project. I'm amazed at how quickly this
project is being developed. But until it is a fully mature tool, it's
going to cost you in time.

1999\03\09@103714 by John A. Craft

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Isn't this the same apathy that let that criminal in the white house off?

What's wrong with a little morality, self righteous or otherwise.

Jc.


At 12:03 AM 3/9/99 PST, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

John A. Craft                                                   (601)689-8103 Vo
ice
Sr. Systems Analyst / Vice President                    (601)689-8130 Fax
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Stennis Space Center, MS  39529

1999\03\09@104710 by Dan Larson

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On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 06:48:27 -0800, Scott Dattalo wrote:

>On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Ry Lato wrote:
>

>
>If you want something for nothing - you're not going to get it. If you
>want something for free (as in no money) then you should seriously
>consider gEDA - the GNU EDA project. I'm amazed at how quickly this
>project is being developed. But until it is a fully mature tool, it's
>going to cost you in time.
>

Is gEDA vailable for Linux ? is it Xwindows based?

I will be moving to Linux soon.  I would be very interested in some Linux
based CAD freeware.

BTW, I think the Eagle package is great for the price... FREE.  The crack
is unneccessary since my "hobbyist" designs are easily broken up into
sub assemblies.  I have to do that any way since I want to get the whole
schematic to fit on one sheet of paper in my inkjet printer.  I really
is no fun to trim and tape multiple sheets together.

I'm thinking of registering Eagle for $49 even though I dont have to
just because it is worth at least *that* much to me...  I can't
share my hand-drawn schematics electronically with anyone.  The only
thing I wish that it had was the ability to render to a GIF file
instead of the printer so I can share schematics with people who
don't use Eagle.

BTW, IMHO it really is stupid to market software as tangible goods.
Since the software is *not* a physical and tangible good it cannot
possible be handled as if it were.  Copying and pirating  cannot
be controlled.  Honest people will pay anyway.  Dishonest people
will never pay.  People that cannot afford *huge* prices of such
software will never pay either. So where is the loss?

Software should be marketed as a service where the author(s)
sell their service and support instead of the binary image
which is so easily copied.

Linux is just one example of the success of this business modle
for a software product.  The gEDA project is very appealing for
this reason.

There are already companies gearing up to profit by servicing
Linux users.  You can't pirate a service.

BTW, I *am* a software engineer!  I make my living writing
software, wich is just a service provided by my company for
our customers which buy our systems.  I had my moment of
glory a long time ago writing software to be retailed,
but soon learned that only a lucky few hit the right combination
of ideas, desgin, timing, implemenation ever made significant
money.  I am much happier writing software for a customer as a service
than as a shrink-wrapped product.

Dan

1999\03\09@120121 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
       Except for very limited fair use exemptions, the creator of a
copyrighted work OWNS that work.  You may not use or copy that work
without his/her permission (except for the fair use exemptions stated in
the copyright law).  The law is an attempt at balancing the desires of
the creator of the work and those who wish to use the work.  If you don't
think the balance is in the right place, write your congressperson!
       It is interesting to me that we all desire the protection of the
law but oftern don't feel an obligation to follow the law.


Harold



Harold Hallikainen
.....haroldKILLspamspam@spam@hallikainen.com
Hallikainen & Friends, Inc.
See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed
in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm

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1999\03\09@122231 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 3/9/99 1:59:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, mwillisspamKILLspamNWLINK.COM
writes:

<<
  MIT owns the hardware/software used to run this list - They can shut
down the PICList in a minute, if they don't like what we do with it.

  I seriously doubt MIT wishes to be dragged into any possible lawsuit,
bad media publicity, etc. from a few on this list discussing Pirated
Software.

  Would it improve that same poor students' situation, if this list was
closed by MIT due to users abusing the list?  Anyone own a spare T1 line
we can move the list to when it's closed down, and have the $$$ it takes
to buy list server software?

  Let's just NOT go there!
 >>
AFAIK you can't be sued for discussing a topic.  MIT is in the US and covered
by laws concerning free speech.  If we were using the list to transmit
binaries of comercial software they would have genuine grounds for action, but
to shut it down because we discuss the morality of this issue would be absurd.
This topic IS relevant to the scope of this list.  Most, if not all of us, use
some form of CAD to perform our daily work/hobby.
As a software engineer I tend to lean towards the developers point of view.
Most of these companies, however, have made versions of their comercial
software available very cheap or free for the asking. As somone who has just
gone through the painfull task of finding quality CAD software, I would't even
consider a package that didn't offer a way of road testing before buying.

Dave Duley

1999\03\09@162024 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
somebody wrote:
> MIT owns the hardware/software used to run this list - They can shut
> down the PICList in a minute, if they don't like what we do with it.
...
jory wrote:
> i don't want to police such things, but please keep in mind the
> nature of your communication, and the nature of a public list and
> decide what is appropriate.
...

That's a nice and wise position Jory.

In the United States, K-Mart sells .22 caliber cartridges at the
shelves, as well any gas station sells gasoline at will. Both can be
used to protect and serve or to destroy and cause pain.

Offffff ccccoourrrse, there is a morality thing involved, but what is
wrong is the =bad use= of the thing itself. The fact of hiding the
information doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Well, still the moral thing
to decide to avoid to show it, but, the free speech and show is
something very nice. If not, any newspaper and lots
of search sites would be closed, lots of dictionaries pages would be
ripped off. Altavista, Yahoo, Lycos and other has thousand of hyperlinks
for cracks, serial numbers, tricks, adult sites and much more crazy
things. This is the freedom thing. Now, the =use= of that information
can be discussed, not the availability of the thing. Months ago I needed
a .dll file Microsoft had only inside a huge package, I don't know how I
found only the .dll in some .uk site. Thanks to those guys.

Again, offfff ccccoouuurrsee we will not allow (in name of the free of
speech and show) post adult sites advertisements in our churches,
schools and other "high morale level" places.  The society decides what
is the "morale level" for every place.

I believe that the announce of "crack sites" in the list can benefit
some students or not fortunate ($$$) people, that otherwise would have
difficulties to find the same thing at the search engines. I am not
encouraging piracy at all. I believe that in such way it was related to
the subject of this list. It is done. The bandwidth used shows how
controversial is this subject. Let's just be aware for the future "high
tension" situations and not waste so much time over it. Lets close the
subject.

Wagner Lipnharski.
http://www.ustr.net

1999\03\10@015426 by Madis Kaal

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>I'm thinking of registering Eagle for $49 even though I dont have to
>just because it is worth at least *that* much to me...  I can't
>share my hand-drawn schematics electronically with anyone.  The only
>thing I wish that it had was the ability to render to a GIF file
>instead of the printer so I can share schematics with people who
>don't use Eagle.

3.55 Eagle's CAM processor can render directly to TIFF, which can
then be converted to whatever graphics format you want.

btw, isn't it time be put this thread to rest already, and go on with
discussing the microcontroller stuff again?

1999\03\10@020300 by Mitchell D. Miller

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part 0 2476 bytes
As a business person, if I felt that some aspect of my business opens the door to legal issues, I'd probably close that door before the opportunity came-a-knockin'.

Everyone is free to have their own opinion, but those do not necessarily change the law, and it is simply illegal to copy software that says you musn't.

This sort of thing falls right into the same category as a store owner playing the radio over their in-house PA system.  It's illegal.  Same goes for making unauthorized copies of written material.

Thank you Mark Willis for this great list; many of us do appreciate your helping keep this list around.

-- Mitch

------------------------------------
Mitch Miller, Roseville, CA
.....mitchmKILLspamspam.....ns.net
------------------------------------

{Original Message removed}

1999\03\10@033106 by Mark Willis

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face
One correction, it's Jory's list, I'm just the guy keeping the place
in line while Jory takes a much-needed break, or something like that
<G>  (But I can wish 'twere mine <G>)  I'll just try to keep 'er
healthy.

 Mark

Mitchell D. Miller wrote:
> <snipped>
> Thank you Mark Willis for this great list; many of us do appreciate your helpi
ng keep this list around.
>
> -- Mitch

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