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'Microchip Appnote Dimmer Problem.'
1999\12\08@113710 by Darren King

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1999\12\08@130238 by Terry A. Steen

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It's not all that bad... HOT IN is the black wire from the source (wall
switch, outlet, etc), HOT OUT goes to what is being driven/dimmed (lamp).
The HOT OUT is just the conditioned HOT IN. These are the electrician
terms... you probably want to see 120VAC in [hot in], 0-120VAC out [hot out].

TAS

At 11:44 AM 12/8/99 -0800, Darren King wrote:
>   www.microchip.com/Download/Appnote/Category/rDesigns/40171a.pdf
>              As you can read, I'm  really lost.   Darren King
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1999\12\08@130453 by Fansler, David

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Darren - I do not pretend to be an expert - but here is what I see.
   1.  The schematic does not totally match the article
   2.  The load would go between Hot Out and Hot In.
   3.  You would supply a Neutral (white wire) to Return.
   4.  You would supply Hot (balck wirefrom power company) to Hot In
   5.  Ground (green) is a good idea.  It can be tied to Neutral (which is
done in US breaker boxes).
   6.  Vcc is generated by the circuit above the PIC (RV1, R1,2, C1-3,
D1-3)
   7.  I would take JP1 to be an external input to allow control of the
circuit by an outside source (another PIC, automation system, etc.)
   8.  While simple, a fair warning is given in the article that this
circuit has no isolation from the AC main and therefore can bite you!
   9.  If used for lighting purposes, this circuit will produce filament
hum at low light levels (larger filaments hum more)  A large choke in line
with the load will kill the hum.

David

{Original Message removed}

1999\12\08@134810 by Darren King

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Hmm..  OK this is what I thought kind of.  I was confused by the White
(return) after the triac.  However I guess thats pretty simple it just goes
back to the WHITE on JP2 and the only reason for that is that the Vcc
Circuit requires it to produce the +5V for the MCU to run.

Sound right?

The diode network that this appnote talks about inside the 12C508 that
protects it from the large AC Current which gives it Vdd+0.7v that kind of
thing.  Does this exist in all PicMicros?

Darren King

----- Original Message -----
From: Fansler, David <.....DFANSLERKILLspamspam@spam@AUTOCYTE.COM>
To: <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Microchip Appnote Dimmer Problem.


> Darren - I do not pretend to be an expert - but here is what I see.
>     1.  The schematic does not totally match the article
>     2.  The load would go between Hot Out and Hot In.
>     3.  You would supply a Neutral (white wire) to Return.
>     4.  You would supply Hot (balck wirefrom power company) to Hot In
>     5.  Ground (green) is a good idea.  It can be tied to Neutral (which
is
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

1999\12\08@154014 by Fansler, David

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I believe that you are correct in your deductions.  I did not read the app
note close enough to see they stated that the diodes on the port were
internal - I THINK (therefore I am not sure) this is common for cmos parts.

David V. Fansler
Network Administrator
TriPath Imaging, Inc. (Formerly AutoCyte, Inc)
336-222-9707 Ext. 261
.....dfanslerKILLspamspam.....autocyte.com <EraseMEdfanslerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTautocyte.com>
Now Showing! http://www.mindspring.com/~dfansler
<http://www.mindspring.com/~dfansler>   Updated September 23, 1999


               {Original Message removed}

1999\12\08@155729 by M. Adam Davis

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To my knowledge clamping diodes are not standard on all i/o ports on the
PICs...  I believe they interfere with some applications.  ALWAYS chck
the data sheet.  I do remember using the internal diode on the A port of
a 16c84 for clamping rs-232 voltages, so I'm sure it's common, but I
don't think it is always the case.

-Adam

Darren King wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

1999\12\09@052628 by Mark Willis

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Ummm...  Fun one <G>

Fansler, David wrote:
>
> Darren - I do not pretend to be an expert - but here is what I see.
>     1.  The schematic does not totally match the article
>     2.  The load would go between Hot Out and Hot In.

I don't like the "hot out" term at all;  Originally I was misled, here -
I'd expect the load to go between Hot Out and Return, given that
terminology!  Hot In is power from the power grid, and, Hot Out is
pulled towards Neutral/Return from Hot In by that Triac, to light the
bulb - so I'd have called that Lamp Return instead, or something like
that.  So yep, David's right, and this is just plain murky terminology
<G>  Not an electrician, I guess?

>     3.  You would supply a Neutral (white wire) to Return.
>     4.  You would supply Hot (balck wirefrom power company) to Hot In
>     5.  Ground (green) is a good idea.  It can be tied to Neutral (which is
> done in US breaker boxes).

Definitely a good life-saving idea.

>     6.  Vcc is generated by the circuit above the PIC (RV1, R1,2, C1-3,
> D1-3)
>     7.  I would take JP1 to be an external input to allow control of the
> circuit by an outside source (another PIC, automation system, etc.)

For safety, I'll add this:  If you're going to use JP1, please DO verify
that "Neutral" isn't hot with respect to the Ground line, before or
during installation;  If it is and you connect a switch pair to J1,
touch a lead on that & grab something that's grounded, and you can be
killed.  So - please be a little careful there!

Probably a good idea to verify that anyways, I've seen a few mis-wired
houses.  (Some with 3-prong outlets throughout the house, none having
ground wires attached, almost bought that place...  Would've run ground
wires soon!)

>     8.  While simple, a fair warning is given in the article that this
> circuit has no isolation from the AC main and therefore can bite you!
>     9.  If used for lighting purposes, this circuit will produce filament
> hum at low light levels (larger filaments hum more)  A large choke in line
> with the load will kill the hum.

Have it hum "Singing in the rain" for us Seattle area webbed-footed
folks?  <G>

> David

I'll add another finnick:  I just plain *detest*, dimmers that come on
"Full Bright" when the light's "off".  BAD idea;  I lose my night vision
so as I later walk down the hall, I step on the cat & get bit &
scratched, trip on the cat scratching post, step on the sharp metal
piece the cat knocked off the shelf and bleed on the carpet, and by then
I'm getting "displeased"...  With Full On, I get far more light than I
want or need, it wastes energy (as I dim the light way down & leave it
on all night, instead of turning the light OFF, due to the huge
annoyance of losing night vision) - and it's really hard on the bulb!

I'd have the bulb come on at 10% or so, and ramp up fast if the user
holds down "Brighter", but not full on to start with;  Ick.  I've heard
the excuse, "But - full on, instantly, will scare a burglar worse";  I
seriously doubt it, a sane burglar is going to be FAR more concerned
about an occupant turning the light on to 20% - so they still have night
vision, and can still see to chase the burglar, or to get into position
inside the place to hold them for police, far easier than with the
lights coming on full brightness - so the occupant's Blinded completely,
I'd think.

If you blow a bulb up, that might spook the burglar more;  Why use a
dimmer circuit to blow bulbs up, though?  Use it to extend bulbs' life,
instead!

 Mark

> {Original Message removed}

1999\12\09@121753 by Darren King
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part 0 6547 bytes
How can the TRIAC work if I hook the load up between Hot IN and Hot OUT?
I've read everything and I'm just having trouble understanding why there are
3 wires at JP2.  One of them has to be duplicate so to speak.  If the
connection was made between Hot in and Hot Out.

So Therefore.  White is as we know White.  Hot In is I guess Black...
The circuit goes Hot Out is where the load is connected between the triac
and then back to Hot In.  Wow is this schematic bad.  The Jumper will have
to have 2 wires connected to pin 3 and 1 on JP2.  Thats what confused me so
much.    Here is what I think the schematic should look like.

In otherwords the Load or the light bulb is connected directly to mains, but
because of this stupid jumper its all very confusing.  Is this correct
people?  I made a diagram and its quick and ugly but it does show the
important Mains connections.

Darren King

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Willis <KILLspammwillisKILLspamspamFOXINTERNET.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: Microchip Appnote Dimmer Problem.


{Quote hidden}

is
{Quote hidden}

filament
> > hum at low light levels (larger filaments hum more)  A large choke in
line
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

1999\12\09@125130 by Fansler, David

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Daren - yes you could eliminate the upper circuit and provide an outside
source for Vcc.  You would have to keep R3 in order for  the PIC to monitor
the AC zero crossing.

As for hooking up the load to JP2 - your gif is correct.  The Hot In on the
circuit is used for the Vcc production and  is used for zero crossing
detection.  Hot would also go to one side of the load.  The other side of
the load would go to "Hot Out" - which goes to the Triac.  The other side of
the Triac goes to Neutral (Return(White)) - per your extra line on the gif.
Therefore, the current (voltage - whatever) would flow  through the light,
but stop at the Triac when it was off - therefore a dead end - no current
flow.  As you turn the triac on, the current would be allowed through the
Triac to Neutral (Return) which would allow current through the light
causing it to produce illumination.

Hope this helps!

David V. Fansler
Network Administrator
TriPath Imaging, Inc. (Formerly AutoCyte, Inc)
336-222-9707 Ext. 261
spamBeGonedfanslerspamBeGonespamautocyte.com <TakeThisOuTdfanslerEraseMEspamspam_OUTautocyte.com>
Now Showing! http://www.mindspring.com/~dfansler
<http://www.mindspring.com/~dfansler>   Updated September 23, 1999


               {Original Message removed}

1999\12\09@134248 by Marcelo Yamamoto

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It's correct, but do not forget to place a fuse. If something goes wrong, it
will avoid future headache, fire...

Marcelo Y.

Darren wrote:

>Could I eliminate the Vcc Circuitry?  That would make it much simplier for
>learning and just use some batteries or another wall wart.  How would that
>effect the circuit in regards to zero crossing?
>
>How can the TRIAC work if I hook the load up between Hot IN and Hot OUT?
>I've read everything and I'm just having trouble understanding why there
are
>3 wires at JP2.  One of them has to be duplicate so to speak.  If the
>connection was made between Hot in and Hot Out.
>
>So Therefore.  White is as we know White.  Hot In is I guess Black...
>The circuit goes Hot Out is where the load is connected between the triac
>and then back to Hot In.  Wow is this schematic bad.  The Jumper will have
>to have 2 wires connected to pin 3 and 1 on JP2.  Thats what confused me so
>much.    Here is what I think the schematic should look like.
>
>In otherwords the Load or the light bulb is connected directly to mains,
but
{Quote hidden}

(which
>is
>> > done in US breaker boxes).
>>
>> Definitely a good life-saving idea.
>>
>> >     6.  Vcc is generated by the circuit above the PIC (RV1, R1,2, C1-3,
>> > D1-3)
>> >     7.  I would take JP1 to be an external input to allow control of
the
{Quote hidden}

>> > {Original Message removed}

1999\12\09@140322 by Darren King

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Thanks for the input.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcelo Yamamoto" <EraseMEm_yamamotospamUOL.COM.BR>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: Microchip Appnote Dimmer Problem.


> It's correct, but do not forget to place a fuse. If something goes wrong,
it
> will avoid future headache, fire...
>
> Marcelo Y.
>

1999\12\10@213854 by Donald L Burdette

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Darren -

After reading your posts, I have one other recommendation - get some
experience with logic circuits before you play with lethal voltages and
high power levels.  I don't mean to be unkind, but if you have this much
trouble understanding what's really a simple circuit, you should not be
messing with mains voltages.

1999\12\10@214652 by TIM

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i agree...............the wrong hook up on some terminals.......like
MT1..REVERSED ON MT2....(triac's)...WILL BLOW UP IN YOU'R FACE.......EVEN
OPTO COUPLERS.........BEWARE......
{Original Message removed}

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