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'Material to fill a box'
2004\06\17@073454 by Ake Hedman

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Hi all,

I am making some DIN modules for control purposes and think about
filling them with something to keep the wires etc in place plus give
them some extra weight. I have looked around for electronic filling
material and obviously found the epoxy type.  But it's so damn
expensive. Is there some lower cost material one can use?

Regards
/Ake

---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: 46 657 413430 Cellular: 46 730 533146
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      CAN:
http://can.sourceforge.net
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe

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2004\06\17@095613 by hilip Stortz

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i'm not sure about cost, but there are non-corrosive silicone compounds
available.  sorry i don't know a local source for you, but electronics
distributors should have it.  they pour in as a reasonably thin liquid
and then solidify, they are 2 part so have to be mixed before use and
them chemically react to solidify.  note that you need one that is not
corrosive, many silicones are corrosive, particularly over time.  for
just weight, you could do what they do in many lamps, just put a steal
plate in it.

Ake Hedman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\17@105040 by Fred Hillhouse

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Maybe marine silicone RTV? It isn't acidic like the regular stuff or if
would kill the fish. Or so I am told anyway.



{Original Message removed}

2004\06\17@111914 by Ake Hedman

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Is this the type you mean?

www.wacker.com/internet/webcache/en_US/PTM/TM/Elastosil/Elastosil
_RT_Addition/ELASTOSIL_RT_607.pdf

Regards
/Ake

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[spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]För Philip Stortz
Skickat: den 17 juni 2004 15:56
Till: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Ämne: Re: Material to fill a box


i'm not sure about cost, but there are non-corrosive silicone compounds
available.  sorry i don't know a local source for you, but electronics
distributors should have it.  they pour in as a reasonably thin liquid
and then solidify, they are 2 part so have to be mixed before use and
them chemically react to solidify.  note that you need one that is not
corrosive, many silicones are corrosive, particularly over time.  for
just weight, you could do what they do in many lamps, just put a steal
plate in it.

Ake Hedman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\17@111916 by Ake Hedman

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Do you have apointer for that stuff?

Regards
/Ake

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[PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]För Fred Hillhouse
Skickat: den 17 juni 2004 16:51
Till: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Ämne: Re: Material to fill a box


Maybe marine silicone RTV? It isn't acidic like the regular stuff or if
would kill the fish. Or so I am told anyway.



{Original Message removed}

2004\06\17@121113 by Fred Hillhouse

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No I don't. I was fixing an aquarium once and I was told to find that stuff.



-----Original Message-----
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[EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Ake Hedman
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:20 AM
To: PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: SV: Material to fill a box


Do you have apointer for that stuff?

Regards
/Ake

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[@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]Fvr Fred Hillhouse
Skickat: den 17 juni 2004 16:51
Till: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Dmne: Re: Material to fill a box


Maybe marine silicone RTV? It isn't acidic like the regular stuff or if
would kill the fish. Or so I am told anyway.



-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Ake Hedman
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM
To: spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Material to fill a box


Hi all,

I am making some DIN modules for control purposes and think about
filling them with something to keep the wires etc in place plus give
them some extra weight. I have looked around for electronic filling
material and obviously found the epoxy type.  But it's so damn
expensive. Is there some lower cost material one can use?

Regards
/Ake

---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavdgen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: 46 657 413430 Cellular: 46 730 533146
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      CAN:
http://can.sourceforge.net
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe

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2004\06\17@121958 by Ake Hedman

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Thanks anyway. I saw that Farnell had something like that but it also is
very expensive. If iI use it for my boxes I think the cost to fill them
will equal the cost for the box including all components. Not fun... :-(

Regards
/Aje

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Ämne: Re: Material to fill a box


No I don't. I was fixing an aquarium once and I was told to find that
stuff.



{Original Message removed}

2004\06\17@163354 by David Minkler

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Ake,

If conditions in the enclosure are appropriate, you might consider wax.
At a prior place of employment, we looked at several from Walnut Hill
Enterprises.  They manufacture mostly for the hobby candle making
industry but they have a chemist on staff who seemed willing to discuss
our needs with us.  They are in Bristol, PA.  We eventually went with
something else as the temperature rise in our enclosures was too high
for waxes to be suitable.

Dave

Ake Hedman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\17@163807 by Ake Hedman

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Thanks. That was a *very* good idea. Well worth a test.

Regards
/Ake

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[PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU]För David Minkler
Skickat: den 17 juni 2004 22:40
Till: EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Ämne: Re: Material to fill a box


Ake,

If conditions in the enclosure are appropriate, you might consider wax.
At a prior place of employment, we looked at several from Walnut Hill
Enterprises.  They manufacture mostly for the hobby candle making
industry but they have a chemist on staff who seemed willing to discuss
our needs with us.  They are in Bristol, PA.  We eventually went with
something else as the temperature rise in our enclosures was too high
for waxes to be suitable.

Dave

Ake Hedman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\17@171006 by Steve Kosmerchock

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Have you thought about using a "hot glue gun"?

Steve

Ake Hedman <RemoveMEakheEraseMEspamEraseMEEUROSOURCE.SE> wrote:
Hi all,

I am making some DIN modules for control purposes and think about
filling them with something to keep the wires etc in place plus give
them some extra weight. I have looked around for electronic filling
material and obviously found the epoxy type. But it's so damn
expensive. Is there some lower cost material one can use?

Regards
/Ake

---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavdgen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: 46 657 413430 Cellular: 46 730 533146
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se CAN:
http://can.sourceforge.net
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe

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2004\06\17@172139 by Ake Hedman

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That is also a good idea. Anyone tested this? Experiences?

Regards
/Ake

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[RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]For Steve Kosmerchock
Skickat: den 17 juni 2004 23:10
Till: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Amne: Re: Material to fill a box


Have you thought about using a "hot glue gun"?

Steve

Ake Hedman <EraseMEakhespamspamspamBeGoneEUROSOURCE.SE> wrote:
Hi all,

I am making some DIN modules for control purposes and think about
filling them with something to keep the wires etc in place plus give
them some extra weight. I have looked around for electronic filling
material and obviously found the epoxy type. But it's so damn
expensive. Is there some lower cost material one can use?

Regards
/Ake

---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavdgen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: 46 657 413430 Cellular: 46 730 533146
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se CAN:
http://can.sourceforge.net
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe

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2004\06\17@194050 by David Minkler

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Ake,

Some of the glues become (noticably) conductive over time (and
temperature).  The origin of my suggestion about waxes came from the
fact that boards and individual components were frequently coated with
waxes (beeswax maybe?) as conformal coatings in the days before silicone
or acrylic conformal coatings (say, the 50s and early 60s).
Additionally, I recall that core and coil neon light transformers were
often encapsulated in tar (quite a mess and smelly too).

Regards,

Dave

Ake Hedman wrote:

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2004\06\18@035611 by Ake Hedman

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Dave,

I remember trafos with tar myself. But as you say it was a bit smelly.

I think wax is interesting. It is in fact low priced. Concerns are a low
melting point and possibly conductivity. But I think I will go for a
test on this.

Thanks & Regards
/Ake

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Till: EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Ämne: Re: SV: Material to fill a box


Ake,

Some of the glues become (noticably) conductive over time (and
temperature).  The origin of my suggestion about waxes came from the
fact that boards and individual components were frequently coated with
waxes (beeswax maybe?) as conformal coatings in the days before silicone
or acrylic conformal coatings (say, the 50s and early 60s).
Additionally, I recall that core and coil neon light transformers were
often encapsulated in tar (quite a mess and smelly too).

Regards,

Dave

Ake Hedman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\18@061944 by William Chops Westfield

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On Friday, Jun 18, 2004, at 00:55 US/Pacific, Ake Hedman wrote:

>> I have looked around for electronic filling
>> material and obviously found the epoxy type. But it's so damn
>> expensive. Is there some lower cost material one can use?
>>
note that general purpose epoxy or polyurethane resins are considerably
cheaper in moderate quantities, and can be "filled" with a large
percentage of "really cheap" stuff like sawdust or sand...

BillW

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2004\06\18@063851 by Ake Hedman

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I did not think about that but of course that is a possibility. Don't
know who to manage without you all guys on the list. You are the best!!!

Regards
/Ake

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[.....PICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]For William Chops Westfield
Skickat: den 18 juni 2004 11:56
Till: RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Amne: Re: SV: SV: Material to fill a box


On Friday, Jun 18, 2004, at 00:55 US/Pacific, Ake Hedman wrote:

>> I have looked around for electronic filling
>> material and obviously found the epoxy type. But it's so damn
>> expensive. Is there some lower cost material one can use?
>>
note that general purpose epoxy or polyurethane resins are considerably
cheaper in moderate quantities, and can be "filled" with a large
percentage of "really cheap" stuff like sawdust or sand...

BillW

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2004\06\18@095219 by Morgan Olsson

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Filling the epoxy etc with quartz powder also make the temperature expansion more like that of a PCB, and enhances the thermal conductivity.  I have used an epoxy with 70% filling.

Åke, look in Elfa.

There are also silicone types, some filled to enhance termal conductivity.
Silicones have the great advantage that they are flexible so thermal expansion and cycling does not meake mechanical stress and wear on solder joints, components in general etc.

The best ever I have used also for total water safe applicaiton is a tacky silica gel from Wacker, it is very flexible, transparent and somewhat self-healing: you can push a test neeedle down to the PCB for testing, then withdraw it and it is water tight again.  I have the PCB completely suspended in this mass and tha tmake it shock proof.  Even the casing may break and the PCB is protected from water!  Just remember to have air in the casing for thermal expansion.

/Morgan

William Chops Westfield 11:55 2004-06-18:
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2004\06\18@102357 by llile

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Paraffin wax is an old technician's trick to keep water out of things.  It
is noncondctive and noncorrosive. easy to remove with reapplication of
heat. Beats silicon rubber, which sometimes contains acetic acid and eats
copper.  We used to fill outdoor sensor boxes with paraffin wax all the
time.


-- Lawrence Lile





David Minkler <@spam@minkRemoveMEspamEraseMELUXTRON.COM>
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06/17/2004 06:45 PM
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       Subject:        Re: SV: Material to fill a box


Ake,

Some of the glues become (noticably) conductive over time (and
temperature).  The origin of my suggestion about waxes came from the
fact that boards and individual components were frequently coated with
waxes (beeswax maybe?) as conformal coatings in the days before silicone
or acrylic conformal coatings (say, the 50s and early 60s).
Additionally, I recall that core and coil neon light transformers were
often encapsulated in tar (quite a mess and smelly too).

Regards,

Dave

Ake Hedman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\18@105929 by 4HAZ

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Have to be careful with paraffin wax with certain components.
If the wax is too hot it could overheat some parts, melt some plastics, or
ooze into a relay.
OTOH it can give quite a nice plume during the "smoke test".
I have used a mixture of paraffin wax melted with "Lionel-Train smoke
liquid" to coat transformers and pass transistors, gives a really graphic
indication when things are being pushed too hard.

KF4HAZ - Lonnie

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2004\06\18@110927 by David VanHorn

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At 09:23 AM 6/18/2004 -0500, RemoveMEllileEraseMEspamKILLspamSALTONUSA.COM wrote:

>Paraffin wax is an old technician's trick to keep water out of things.  It is noncondctive and noncorrosive. easy to remove with reapplication of heat. Beats silicon rubber, which sometimes contains acetic acid and eats copper.  We used to fill outdoor sensor boxes with paraffin wax all the time.

It also doesn't significantly affect tuned circuits, so it's used to secure tuning components from vibration.

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2004\06\18@142057 by Morgan Olsson

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llile@SALTONUSA.COM 16:23 2004-06-18:
>Paraffin wax is an old technician's trick to keep water out of things.  It
>is noncondctive and noncorrosive. easy to remove with reapplication of
>heat. Beats silicon rubber, which sometimes contains acetic acid and eats
>copper.

Most (not all) one-component silicone glues etc react with water vapour in the air and produce acid.  Theese are not intended for electronics and such.

There exist two component silicones that are the best you can get even for high voltage encapsulaotins.

>  We used to fill outdoor sensor boxes with paraffin wax all the
>time.

I have seen it crack of low temperature when it is pretty nonflexible and have high contraction/temperature coefficient (what is the english term?)

/Morgan
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2004\06\19@015423 by SM Ling

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Maybe you can try the fast-filling foam use for packing, or those for
filling up seam for water-proofing purpose.  The water-proofing foam can be
purchased through hardware store.  Let us know the outcome if you do try
them.

Cheers, Ling SM

> Paraffin wax is an old technician's trick to keep water out of things.  It
> is noncondctive and noncorrosive. easy to remove with reapplication of
> heat. Beats silicon rubber, which sometimes contains acetic acid and eats
> copper.  We used to fill outdoor sensor boxes with paraffin wax all the
> time.
>
>
> -- Lawrence Lile

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2004\06\19@050017 by Peter L. Peres

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>Paraffin wax is an old technician's trick to keep water out of things. It
>is noncondctive and noncorrosive. easy to remove with reapplication of
>heat.

>It also doesn't significantly affect tuned circuits, so it's used to
>secure tuning components from vibration.

The compund used to secure tuned circuits is usually refined beeswax with
or without rosin added (see my other post). It is harder and sticks better
than paraffin wax, which tends to crack and flake off. Paraffin wax is
what's in the 'tealight' candles. Because of the cracking problem it is
granulated but that makes it unsuitable for sealing use. Tealight wax cast
in any larger size will crack and have pitiful mechanical charcteristics.

Beeswax is much better for this. Be very sure to use *refined* beeswax.
This has the acidity adjusted. Unrefined wax will eventually leak fatty
acids and such and may affect your circuit. Same goes for rosin. Refined
rosin must be used.

To make the rosin+wax compund, you melt rosin and add the wax while
stirring. The result can be cast immediately or allowed to cool and
reheated later. The rosin percentage affects the hardness of the resultant
material. Both materials are flammable when liquid. Keep a lid handy to
put out a flame on the pot and do not use an open flame for heating. DO
NOT put out a wax/rosin fire with water. Use CO2. Also this thing will
cause 3rd degree burns even when it looks cool. Beware.

Peter

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2004\06\19@050019 by Peter L. Peres

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>Paraffin wax is an old technician's trick to keep water out of things.
>It is noncondctive and noncorrosive.

And better than that is rosin+wax. It has a specific name I forget now, it
is used in art (sculpture, lost wax molding etc). Can be cast and
machined with hand tools. The melting point of some waxes is well above
100 degrees C. 'hot glue' has a melting point above 110C and a
crystallisation range at 50-70C.

Peter

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2004\06\19@050428 by Ake Hedman

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I am amazed. This is also a *very* good one. I will try it out and
report. Thanks again all for lending me a time slice of your brainpower.

Regards
/Ake

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[spamBeGonePICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]För SM Ling
Skickat: den 19 juni 2004 07:47
Till: RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Ämne: Re: SV: Material to fill a box


Maybe you can try the fast-filling foam use for packing, or those for
filling up seam for water-proofing purpose.  The water-proofing foam can
be
purchased through hardware store.  Let us know the outcome if you do try
them.

Cheers, Ling SM

> Paraffin wax is an old technician's trick to keep water out of things.
It
> is noncondctive and noncorrosive. easy to remove with reapplication of
> heat. Beats silicon rubber, which sometimes contains acetic acid and
eats
> copper.  We used to fill outdoor sensor boxes with paraffin wax all
the
> time.
>
>
> -- Lawrence Lile

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2004\06\19@050843 by Ake Hedman

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Thanks Peter, suberb as always!

Regards
/Ake

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Skickat: den 19 juni 2004 04:56
Till: RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Amne: Re: SV: Material to fill a box


>Paraffin wax is an old technician's trick to keep water out of things.
It
>is noncondctive and noncorrosive. easy to remove with reapplication of
>heat.

>It also doesn't significantly affect tuned circuits, so it's used to
>secure tuning components from vibration.

The compund used to secure tuned circuits is usually refined beeswax
with
or without rosin added (see my other post). It is harder and sticks
better
than paraffin wax, which tends to crack and flake off. Paraffin wax is
what's in the 'tealight' candles. Because of the cracking problem it is
granulated but that makes it unsuitable for sealing use. Tealight wax
cast
in any larger size will crack and have pitiful mechanical
charcteristics.

Beeswax is much better for this. Be very sure to use *refined* beeswax.
This has the acidity adjusted. Unrefined wax will eventually leak fatty
acids and such and may affect your circuit. Same goes for rosin. Refined
rosin must be used.

To make the rosin+wax compund, you melt rosin and add the wax while
stirring. The result can be cast immediately or allowed to cool and
reheated later. The rosin percentage affects the hardness of the
resultant
material. Both materials are flammable when liquid. Keep a lid handy to
put out a flame on the pot and do not use an open flame for heating. DO
NOT put out a wax/rosin fire with water. Use CO2. Also this thing will
cause 3rd degree burns even when it looks cool. Beware.

Peter

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2004\06\21@193040 by Win Wiencke

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face
<Ake Hedman asked>
> I have looked around for electronic filling
> material and obviously found the epoxy type.  But it's so damn
>expensive. Is there some lower cost material one can use?

I came across a relatively inexpensive rigid urethane from an outfit called
GoldenWest (http://www.goldenwestmfg.com) -- lots of other outfits sell it
too.  It warms when curing but nothing unusual.  The normal application is
for architectural impediments, cast wall plaques and the like.

I used it to cast protective bezels for some hardware.  It cures in minutes
and conceivably could be cast in such a way that it becomes the housing.

Obviously there are a few questions about thermal properties, but it's a
real good dielectric and seems quite inert.  I'm tempted to try the stuff as
a way to pot and enclose in one operation, but I've never actually done it.

Win Wiencke
Image Logic Corporation

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2004\06\22@023528 by Ake Hedman

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This looks promising.

/Ake

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[spam_OUTPICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]För Win Wiencke
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Till: RemoveMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Ämne: Re: Material to fill a box


<Ake Hedman asked>
> I have looked around for electronic filling
> material and obviously found the epoxy type.  But it's so damn
>expensive. Is there some lower cost material one can use?

I came across a relatively inexpensive rigid urethane from an outfit
called
GoldenWest (http://www.goldenwestmfg.com) -- lots of other outfits sell
it
too.  It warms when curing but nothing unusual.  The normal application
is
for architectural impediments, cast wall plaques and the like.

I used it to cast protective bezels for some hardware.  It cures in
minutes
and conceivably could be cast in such a way that it becomes the housing.

Obviously there are a few questions about thermal properties, but it's a
real good dielectric and seems quite inert.  I'm tempted to try the
stuff as
a way to pot and enclose in one operation, but I've never actually done
it.

Win Wiencke
Image Logic Corporation

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2004\06\22@030059 by William Chops Westfield

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On Jun 21, 2004, at 11:34 PM, Ake Hedman wrote:
>
> I came across a relatively inexpensive rigid urethane from an outfit
> called GoldenWest (http://www.goldenwestmfg.com) -- lots of other
> outfits sell it too.

Lots of this sort of thing (two part urethane resins) exist;
"Alumilite" is the brand name product carried by many of the more
serious hobby stores.
Cheaper and broader products from places like http://www.bare-metal.com/
Most will foam if you add some water, although not in a particularly
controlled fashion.  Several product lines specifically include foams.
And assorted fillers.

Not a LOT cheaper than bulk epoxy resins, but faster and less viscous.

BillW

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2004\06\25@091537 by hilip Stortz

picon face
i had good luck with a high voltage divider i made (i think 60 10meg
resistors in series and a shunt across the meter terminals, all on
perfboard in a plastic box) that i potted in paraffin wax from the
grocery store, so i think it would likely work for most low power
electronics, but i doubt it conducts heat very well.

David Minkler wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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