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PICList Thread
'Mass Storage'
1996\08\29@010254 by Philip Lalone

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       I'm using a PIC16c84, and i'm going to need more memory than it
offers, I was considering either a floppy drive, zip drive, or something
to that extent, the simpler the better, any ideas?

                                               Philip Lalone
                                               spam_OUTplaloneTakeThisOuTspamalphax.com
                                               Alpha-X Development

1996\08\29@012959 by John Payson

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>         I'm using a PIC16c84, and i'm going to need more memory than it
> offers, I was considering either a floppy drive, zip drive, or something
> to that extent, the simpler the better, any ideas?

Uh, how much more memory?  For under $1/Kbyte, you can add serial EEPROM
chips quite easily.  Depending upon your requirements, you may use a lot
of them (and get ones that individually moderately big) with a small number
of I/O pins.  I don't know about big ones, but I think the 2Kx8's I use are
under $2ea and you can get two on 2 wires, six on 3 wires, twelve on 4
wires, or twenty on 5 wires.

Of course, if your looking at storing dozens of megs, I think something else
might be in order...

1996\08\29@075720 by Byron A Jeff

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>
>         I'm using a PIC16c84, and i'm going to need more memory than it
> offers, I was considering either a floppy drive, zip drive, or something
> to that extent, the simpler the better, any ideas?

IDE hard drive using Programmed I/O (PIO) to access.

IDE is little more than a simple 16 bit bus implemented using 2 ports.

BAJ

1996\08\29@101219 by Peter L. Taylor

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-- [ From: Peter L. Taylor * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --



> >         I'm using a PIC16c84, and i'm going to need more memory than it
> > offers, I was considering either a floppy drive, zip drive, or something
> > to that extent, the simpler the better, any ideas?
>
> Uh, how much more memory?  For under $1/Kbyte, you can add serial EEPROM
chips
> quite easily.  Depending upon your requirements, you may use a lot of them
(and
> get ones that individually moderately big) with a small number of I/O pins
.  I
> don't know about big ones, but I think the 2Kx8's I use are under $2ea and
you
> can get two on 2 wires, six on 3 wires, twelve on 4 wires, or twenty on 5
> wires.
>
> Of course, if your looking at storing dozens of megs, I think something
else
> might be in order...
>
If you are looking for a larger amount of storage, try National's
NM29A040/080 4 or 8 MBit Flash. (Also Toshiba also second sources it) Approx
$5-10 USD in 100's.  It has a SPI port, but is only compatible with the
newer parts with SPI ports.  (Isn't with the 16CXX family) You'll have to do
bit banging, but for LARGE storage, this is the best chip I've found.
--
Peter L. Taylor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Email: .....petertKILLspamspam@spam@transera.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.transera.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TransEra Corp.
345 East 800 South
Orem, Utah 84058
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Voice:  (801)224-6550
Fax:    (801)224-0355
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1996\08\29@114103 by Bradley, Larry
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----------
From:  owner-piclist[SMTP:owner-piclistspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]
Sent:  Thursday, August 29, 1996 12:30 AM
To:  Multiple recipients of list PICLIST
Subject:  Re: Mass Storage

>         I'm using a PIC16c84, and i'm going to need more memory than it
> offers, I was considering either a floppy drive, zip drive, or
something
> to that extent, the simpler the better, any ideas?

Uh, how much more memory?  For under $1/Kbyte, you can add serial EEPROM
chips quite easily.  (snip)

-----------------------------
Problem with EEPROM is 10*6 write cycles typically (for Microchip parts).
It depends on how often one needs to write. Every 10 minutes would be no
problem. But every second could be.

What other storage options are open to PIC users for extra memory?
Philips has a 256 byte static ram chip with I2C. But are there other
serial static ram chips? One poster suggested using static ram chips such
as are used in PC cache memory systems, but
I suspect these would be messy to interface to.



Larry Bradley
Head, Networks Group
National Research Council
Ottawa, Canda
613-993-1649

1996\08\29@120347 by Wireless Scientific

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At 8:16 AM 8/29/96, Peter L. Taylor wrote:
>If you are looking for a larger amount of storage, try National's
>NM29A040/080 4 or 8 MBit Flash. (Also Toshiba also second sources it) Approx
>$5-10 USD in 100's.  It has a SPI port, but is only compatible with the
>newer parts with SPI ports.  (Isn't with the 16CXX family) You'll have to do
>bit banging, but for LARGE storage, this is the best chip I've found.


Wow, 8MBit for $19 q100. Just this morning, I was happy with 128K for $8.31.

craig

1996\08\29@123429 by Byron A Jeff

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{Quote hidden}

That would have been me. And yes the interface does have its downside. At
minimum 10 pins of I/O and 4 chips (RAM, 2 latches, 1 2-4 decoder)

And you lose every bit of the I/O space. It's possible to recover 16 bits
(8 inputs, 8 outputs) at the expense of another 2 chips (latch, buffer)
and upgrading the 2-4 decode to a 3-8.

Dallas Semi encapsulated the above design into a single chip (DS1380 and 1381
with the 1381 having an integrated lithum cell for battery backup). It gives
2K static ram and a bidirectional 8 bit I/O port at the cost of 10 pins
(8 regenerated). The DS1380 is about $9 in singles. check out

http://www.dalsemi.com

I highly recommend Dallas Semiconductor because they have really taken
the time to deal with folks who need small quantities of their parts. With
an 1-800 number, credit card orders, no minimum, and data sheets online,
one can really cook with their stuff.

All of the above is on the premise of fast parallel access. Now if speed isn't
an issue then it becomes more interesting... The 74X595 is a ideal chip
for addressing lots of I/O bits serially. It's a 3-state 8 bit serial shift
register with integrated latch. Also it's cascadable due to the non 3-state
output pin that holds the last bit of the shift register. The whole job
can be done with 3 of these puppies and 3 I/O bits.

But the original poster was talking about floppies and ZIP drives. I got the
distinct impression that:

A) He wanted a lot of space.
B) The space had to be semi-permanent.

With a low end of 1.5 Megabytes and a high of almost 100 MB, I don't think
that any semiconductor solution is going to be cost effective.

I still think interfacing to an IDE hard disk has the most promise....

BAJ

1996\08\29@131207 by Wireless Scientific

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At 11:32 AM 8/29/96, Bradley, Larry wrote:
{Quote hidden}

the PCF8570 part that you mentioned is not a common part, i.e. currently
there's no stock in US. Well that's what my Philip's rep told me this
morning after I requested samples a couple days ago. She said that it was
going to take several weeks to get some parts to me. Fortunately I can
tolerate the time.

craig

1996\08\29@143125 by John Payson

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> Problem with EEPROM is 10*6 write cycles typically (for Microchip parts).
> It depends on how often one needs to write. Every 10 minutes would be no
> problem. But every second could be.
>
> What other storage options are open to PIC users for extra memory?
> Philips has a 256 byte static ram chip with I2C. But are there other
> serial static ram chips? One poster suggested using static ram chips such
> as are used in PC cache memory systems, but
> I suspect these would be messy to interface to.

RamTron makes some nice I2C parts: 512x8 and 2Kx8 "FRAM"'s.  These things
are amazingly cheap (under $3/2K I think) and work like EEPROMs except:

[1] No delay on writes; as soon as the data is done being written to the I2C
   bus the chip can read or write more data. (i.e. writes take about 20us
   instead of however-many ms)

[2] 10^12 endurance.  Note, however, that the chips are worn out by both reads
   and writes (the 10^12 limit is for total cycles).  On the other hand,
   even at 1000 accesses/second to a location, it would take 31 years to
   wear out the part.  [hopefully I'm remembering the 10^12 right]

1996\08\29@200110 by Steve Hardy

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> From: Byron A Jeff <byronspamspam_OUTGEMINI.CC.GATECH.EDU>
>
> >
> >         I'm using a PIC16c84, and i'm going to need more memory than it
> > offers, I was considering either a floppy drive, zip drive, or something
> > to that extent, the simpler the better, any ideas?
>
> IDE hard drive using Programmed I/O (PIO) to access.
>
> IDE is little more than a simple 16 bit bus implemented using 2 ports.
>

Byron (or anyone): where is a description of the IDE spec?  I have a
few drives lying around and would like to see if it is feasible to
interface them to homebrew systems i.e. non-IBM.

Regards,
SJH
Canberra, Australia

1996\08\29@201533 by Lee Jones

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>>> I'm using a PIC16c84, and i'm going to need more memory than it
>>> offers, I was considering either a floppy drive, zip drive, ...
>>
>> IDE hard drive using Programmed I/O (PIO) to access.
>> IDE is little more than a simple 16 bit bus implemented using 2 ports.
>
> Byron (or anyone): where is a description of the IDE spec?

IDE stands for Integrated Drive Electronics (I think).  It's the
marketing name that caught on.  However, all the standards stuff
is under ATA (AT Attachment, if I recall correctly) interface.
I have a spec for it but I don't remember the site.  Try one of
the search engines (like Alta-Vista) or a standards body.

You might also contact one of the major drive manufacturers and
buy a full manual for one of their IDE/ATA interface drives.  The
real trick is ensuring that it has the interface hardware details
_and_ the programming information before purchase.


> I have a few drives lying around and would like to see if it is
> feasible to interface them to homebrew systems i.e. non-IBM.

Certainly.  Newer low-end Macintoshes use IDE drives too (in my
opinion, a real lose since I really like SCSI).

                                               Lee

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-------------------------------------------------------------------

1996\08\29@211402 by Ricardo Seixas

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At 23:30 28/08/96 -0700, you wrote:
>        I'm using a PIC16c84, and i'm going to need more memory than it
>offers, I was considering either a floppy drive, zip drive, or something
>to that extent, the simpler the better, any ideas?
>
>                                                Philip Lalone
>                                                KILLspamplaloneKILLspamspamalphax.com
>                                                Alpha-X Development
>

Check out this page, there's a lot of information about IDE specifications.
www.paranoia.com/~filipg/HTML/LINK/F_IDE-tech.html

1996\08\29@225856 by Byron A Jeff

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>
> > From: Byron A Jeff <RemoveMEbyronTakeThisOuTspamGEMINI.CC.GATECH.EDU>
> >
> > >
> > >         I'm using a PIC16c84, and i'm going to need more memory than it
> > > offers, I was considering either a floppy drive, zip drive, or something
> > > to that extent, the simpler the better, any ideas?
> >
> > IDE hard drive using Programmed I/O (PIO) to access.
> >
> > IDE is little more than a simple 16 bit bus implemented using 2 ports.
> >
>
> Byron (or anyone): where is a description of the IDE spec?  I have a
> few drives lying around and would like to see if it is feasible to
> interface them to homebrew systems i.e. non-IBM.

Netscape bombed out on me. However I was able to find a decent FAQ about IDE
at http://www.seagate.com. It was under the Support/Disc section. At the
very bottom it had a pointer to an ftp site. Netscape go boom so I didn't
get there.

Another possibility is to call the manufacturer of the drive and ask for the
tech manual. This isn't the install guide but a interface and programming
level spec on the drive. I got a couple for some connor drives I was playing
with (but never got to work).

Hope this helps,

BAJ

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