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'Manufacturing Sticker Shock'
1999\08\31@130217 by Anne Ogborn

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We were going to have a contract manufacturer do the little boards we're doing,
but they want $12 a board to assemble them.
Frankly, for that price it's saner to get somebody from state unemployment and
give them a soldering iron.
Thru-hole, here we come!

--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\08\31@131245 by Andy Kunz

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At 09:59 AM 8/31/99 -0700, you wrote:
>We were going to have a contract manufacturer do the little boards we're
doing,
>but they want $12 a board to assemble them.

How complex a board?  Component count, pad count?  Board size?  Lead
spacing?  Masked?

Just assembly?

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
spam_OUTandyTakeThisOuTspamrc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
.....andyKILLspamspam@spam@montanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\08\31@131703 by Harrison Cooper

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Annie....email me on this....we have a contract mfg in house now (they took
over our manufacturing cuz we didn't know how?  ya think after 25years they
would....)

{Original Message removed}

1999\08\31@170741 by Mike Keitz

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On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:59:58 -0700 Anne Ogborn <anniepoospamKILLspamNETMAGIC.NET>
writes:

> Frankly, for that price it's saner to get somebody from state
> unemployment and
> give them a soldering iron.
> Thru-hole, here we come!

I think it's easier and faster to hand-build SMT for a person with a
little practice   Be sure to design the board very conservatively.  Don't
use any parts with pin pitch less than 0.05".  Use 1206 resistors and
capacitors.  Put parts only on one side of the board.  Don't put the
parts close together.  Line up the resistors and capacitors so they are
all along the same axis, this makes it easier to solder them one end at a
time.  Don't route any traces between IC pads or too near other pads.
You'll still end up with a board that is smaller than the equivalent
thru-hole one.

SMT parts go on the board fast.  These time-consuming steps of thru-hole
are avoided:

* Bending the part leads to fit through the holes
* Turning the board over and back between placing and soldering
* Cutting the excess leads off

With SMT, the hand-working assembler would tin one pad of the board,
place the component using that pad to tack it down, then solder the rest
of the leads (at any time).   If all the resistors and capacitors are on
the same axis, it works well to place them down with one lead, then turn
the board around and solder all the other leads.

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'Manufacturing Sticker Shock'
1999\09\01@224132 by Anne Ogborn
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Andy Kunz wrote:
>
> At 09:59 AM 8/31/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >We were going to have a contract manufacturer do the little boards we're
> doing,
> >but they want $12 a board to assemble them.
>
> How complex a board?  Component count, pad count?  Board size?  Lead
> spacing?  Masked?
>
> Just assembly?
>
> Andy

components:

8pin SOIC       x 2
18 pin SOIC     x 1
28 pin SOIC     x 1
passives        12
1 crystal
4 connectors, all through hole
a couple electrolytic caps, through hole

about 80 pads
board 3.5 x 1.25
No exciting requirements for board - fr4, 0.050 lead spacing.
2 layer board
34 vias

question for folks - Eagle seems to be reluctant to give me this information.
I had to do things like mak e apin list and massage the data. Anybody have a bet
ter way?


--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\09\01@225819 by Anne Ogborn

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> With SMT, the hand-working assembler would tin one pad of the board,
> place the component using that pad to tack it down, then solder the rest
> of the leads (at any time).   If all the resistors and capacitors are on
> the same axis, it works well to place them down with one lead, then turn
> the board around and solder all the other leads.
>

Yes, it's just an issue of training time.

I may even use some mix.

--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\09\02@003815 by Jeff King

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I have a board with following:

(all throughhole)

8pin DIP      x 1
18 pin DIP     x 1
16 pin DIP    x 1
passives        9 (3 caps, 6 1/8 watt resistors)
1 resonator
2 connectors, one 3 pin, one 10 pin

about 83 pads
board 1.0 x 1.25
12/12 design rules
2 layer board
1 via

Getting this built for $1.80 each so your getting ripped at $12 each. My
boards are scored in a 20 up array and they are wave soldered. I'd avoid
handsoldering as its to easy to miss a hole/pad. I electrical test my PCB's
(about 0.40 each with soldermask) and my fallout rate is less then 0.5%
where without ET and handsoldered it was around 3%.

Ask around at your PCB houses who they use for assembly, you should
be able to get near these prices even in SF area and I guess even lower
near the border.

Good luck

-Jeff


Anne Ogborn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

etter way?
>
> --
> Anniepoo
> Need loco motors?
> http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\09\02@015723 by Dennis Plunkett

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At 19:39 1/09/99 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

a better way?
>
>
>--
>Anniepoo
>Need loco motors?
>http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html
>
>

At $12 that is not cheap, but how many are you after? May be able to do
them quite cheap here, but shipping may create trouble in the cost. With
the USD at placing hat AUD at .67c, things may be a bargin (Sorta)


Dennis

1999\09\02@022643 by William K. Borsum

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At 07:39 PM 9/1/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Andy Kunz wrote:
>>
>> At 09:59 AM 8/31/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> >We were going to have a contract manufacturer do the little boards we're
>> doing,
>> >but they want $12 a board to assemble them.
>>
>> How complex a board?  Component count, pad count?  Board size?  Lead
>> spacing?  Masked?
>>
>> Just assembly?

If you've got a 100 or so, I'll hand assemble them myself for $12 each!
Should take only a few hours. :-)
Local stuffers tell me to use $0.12 per component for autoplace and solder
and clean.
Kelly


William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<.....borsumKILLspamspam.....dascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>

1999\09\02@031807 by Dennis Plunkett

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At 23:26 1/09/99 -0700, you wrote:
>At 07:39 PM 9/1/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Andy Kunz wrote:
>>>
>>> At 09:59 AM 8/31/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>> >We were going to have a contract manufacturer do the little boards we're
>>> doing,
>>> >but they want $12 a board to assemble them.
>>>
>>> How complex a board?  Component count, pad count?  Board size?  Lead
>>> spacing?  Masked?
>>>
>>> Just assembly?
>
>If you've got a 100 or so, I'll hand assemble them myself for $12 each!
>Should take only a few hours. :-)
>Local stuffers tell me to use $0.12 per component for autoplace and solder
>and clean.
>Kelly

OCH!
Should be looking at 2c or less

Dennis


>
>
>William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
><EraseMEborsumspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>
>
>

1999\09\02@062117 by Bob Drzyzgula

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On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 07:39:13PM -0700, Anne Ogborn wrote:
>
> question for folks - Eagle seems to be reluctant to give me this information.
> I had to do things like mak e apin list and massage the data. Anybody have a b
etter way?

On Cadsoft's home page, under download... user files,
there's a ULP called "count2", written by one of the
cadsoft employees, that will give you the number of
pads, SMDs, vias and holes in a board. Since it's
so tiny, I *think* I'll get away with including it
in this message (then again, I might also get flamed
for sending attachments to the list, I don't know... :-).

--Bob

/*  This EAGLE User Language Program prints an info
*  file (count.txt) that informs you about the
*  number of pads, vias and smds in your layout
*/

int i, j, k, h;
i = j = k = h = 0;

board(B) {
output("count.txt") {
 printf("%s\n\n", EAGLE_SIGNATURE);
 printf("Info file for %s\n\n\n", B.name);
  B.holes(L) {
    h++;
    }
  B.elements(E) {
    E.package.holes(H) {
      h++;
      }
    E.package.contacts(C) {

      if (C.pad)
         i++ ;

      if (C.smd)
         j++ ;   }  }


  B.signals(S) {
    S.vias(V) {
         k++;    }  }

 printf("   Number of Pads:  %d\n\n", i);
 printf("   Number of SMDs:  %d\n\n", j);
 printf("   Number of Vias:  %d\n\n", k);
 printf("   Number of Holes: %d\n\n", h);

}
}

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
bobspamspam_OUTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

1999\09\02@084457 by Kellar Kevin K CNIN

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This site allows you to submits your design to several pcb shops for quotes.
I have not tried this service,  but it was reference by the EDN mag.
       http://www.pcb-quote.com/
Kevin

> {Original Message removed}

1999\09\02@094321 by Barry King

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> This site allows you to submits your design to several pcb shops for quotes.
> I have not tried this service,  but it was reference by the EDN mag.
>         http://www.pcb-quote.com/

pcb-quote.com gives you quotes on having the PCB blanks made
based on the PCB specs.  They don't quote assembly.  I think Annie
was looking for an assembly house.

FWIW, in our local market (Northern VT, USA) the $12 quote per
PCB for the board she described is not competitive.  Set-up costs
not withstanding, a run of 50 or 100 boards should be cheaper than
that.

------------
Barry King, KA1NLH
Engineering Manager
NRG Systems "Measuring the Wind's Energy"
Hinesburg, Vermont, USA
http://www.nrgsystems.com

1999\09\02@100155 by Andy Kunz

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>components:
>
>8pin SOIC       x 2
>18 pin SOIC     x 1
>28 pin SOIC     x 1
>passives        12
>1 crystal
>4 connectors, all through hole
>a couple electrolytic caps, through hole

Annie,

How many boards?  I have a guy who does the assembly for me and my
customers, and could do this _much_ cheaper.  Because it's a one-man show
he doesn't have the overhead of set-u, etc.

What's costing you is the mixing of through-hole and SMT.  An all-THT or
all-SMT board would be much cheaper.  You are looking at having double the
handling here.

Anyway, if you are interested contact me private @spam@supportKILLspamspammontanadesign.com
and I'll put you guys together.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
KILLspamandyKILLspamspamrc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
RemoveMEandyTakeThisOuTspammontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\09\02@124055 by Eric Oliver

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Anne,

There are some shareware and freeware scripts to do things like this on Eagle's
website.  Have you browsed their list of plugins ?

>
> question for folks - Eagle seems to be reluctant to give me this information.
> I had to do things like mak e apin list and massage the data. Anybody have a b
etter way?
>
>
> --
> Anniepoo
> Need loco motors?
> http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\09\02@171853 by Anne Ogborn

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I've got 1000 initially, will probably follow every few months with
1K more

--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\09\02@173304 by Anne Ogborn

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Thanks


  Number of Pads:  27

  Number of SMDs:  82

  Number of Vias:  56

  Number of Holes: 2


--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\09\02@173714 by Anne Ogborn

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Thanks to everybody for responding to my manufacturing problem.

Those who are interested in the work, I'm not done with engineering.
When I get a more final hardware design, I'll post info to all of you
asking for bids.



--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

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