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'Mail formatting'
1997\07\01@043122 by Tim Forcer

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Although I've now upgraded to Eudora Light 3.0.1, which is very good and
handles all sorts of formatting, I strongly support all those wanting to
keep to plain ASCII text.  The main reason is that ALL applications,
printers and users understand this format.  Sure, it's possible to do all
sorts of clever things with html, rtf and the rest, but those "standards"
aren't set in stone, and it's very easy to find that something is missing,
stopping you reading anything at all.

If the vast majority can agree to keep to ASCII plain text, could there
also be some general acceptance of making initial posts have a line length
of about 70 characters?  This means that even after they have been subject
to several nested responses, the line length stays below the magic 80.
Leading spaces (except in quoted code, where they must be retained) are
also an irritation - although I accept this is probably purely personal.

Generally speaking I'm a slow upgrader.  I'm still using Word 2.0 (and
haven't yet found a significant reason to upgrade, even if money wasn't a
factor).  My Win95 CD-ROM sat on my desk for almost a year before I ran it.
I don't object to new things on principle, and I'm delighted with the
Eudora upgrade.  My objection is that many upgrades actually take the user
several steps backwards.


Tim Forcer               spam_OUTtmfTakeThisOuTspamecs.soton.ac.uk
Department of Electronics & Computer Science
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

1997\07\01@054628 by Mike Smith

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----------
> From: Tim Forcer <.....T.M.ForcerKILLspamspam@spam@ECS.SOTON.AC.UK>
> To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mail formatting
> Date: Tuesday, 1 July 1997 17:51
>
> Although I've now upgraded to Eudora Light 3.0.1, which is very good and
> handles all sorts of formatting, I strongly support all those wanting to
> keep to plain ASCII text.  The main reason is that ALL applications,
> printers and users understand this format.  Sure, it's possible to do all
> sorts of clever things with html, rtf and the rest, but those "standards"
> aren't set in stone, and it's very easy to find that something is
missing,
> stopping you reading anything at all.

Yes, I understand that, but how long is the 'lowest common denominator'
factor going to hold?  1, 10, 100 years?  Ascii's been going at least 10,
but I'd hate to be still using it in 20 years.

>
> If the vast majority can agree to keep to ASCII plain text, could there
> also be some general acceptance of making initial posts have a line
length
> of about 70 characters?  This means that even after they have been
subject
> to several nested responses, the line length stays below the magic 80.
> Leading spaces (except in quoted code, where they must be retained) are
> also an irritation - although I accept this is probably purely personal.
>

I just let paragraphs line-wrap - just like a word processor.  CR's belong
at the end of paragraphs, not lines.  If you've ever had to clean up a
document that's been cr/lf'ed at the end of each line, and the margins
changed, you'll know why.  I hate leading spaces too - but without a
formatting standard other than plain ascii, you can't set user margins/tabs
etc.

> Generally speaking I'm a slow upgrader.  I'm still using Word 2.0 (and

Word 2 runs significantly faster than its successors.  Unless you have a
fast Pentium, I'd keep with it - as you say it does all you need (and
probably more).  Even Word 2 could handle RTF though.

> haven't yet found a significant reason to upgrade, even if money wasn't a
> factor).  My Win95 CD-ROM sat on my desk for almost a year before I ran
it.

OTOH I like 95 much more than 3.11 - it's replacement for the hopeless
Progman/Fileman 4.11 and earlier had - (Explorer) justifies it alone.

>  I don't object to new things on principle, and I'm delighted with the
> Eudora upgrade.  My objection is that many upgrades actually take the
user
> several steps backwards.

95 is hungrier.
I was at a friends place using Eudora lite and hated it at first use.
Admittedly, it was a Win16 version, which tend to be clunky after using
**good** Win32 apps

MikeS
<.....mikesmith_ozKILLspamspam.....relaymail.net>

1997\07\01@061322 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

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On Tue, Jul 01, 1997 at 07:16:19PM +0930, Mike Smith wrote:

> Yes, I understand that, but how long is the 'lowest common denominator'
> factor going to hold?  1, 10, 100 years?  Ascii's been going at least 10,
> but I'd hate to be still using it in 20 years.

At least 10? A little off, methinks. I've been using it for 25 years, so
the prospect of still using it in another 20 doesn't hold any great fear.
Probably the chief objection to ASCII is that it doesn't cater for
languages with non-ASCII glyphs, like umlauts and accents. Whither Unicode?


--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs  |HI-TECH Software,      |Email: EraseMEclydespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuThtsoft.com
Ph:  +61 7 3354 2411|P.O. Box 103, Alderley,|WWW:  http://www.htsoft.com/
Fax: +61 7 3354 2422|QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.  |PGP: finger clydespamspam_OUThtsoft.com
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1997\07\01@083248 by Andy Kunz

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>sorts of clever things with html, rtf and the rest, but those "standards"
>aren't set in stone, and it's very easy to find that something is missing,

Here's a typical reason.  I use Winword 8, a customer uses Winword 5.  He
wants to get a file off my laptop, so I save it as RTF for him.  He can't
read it - Microsoft (the definer of RTF, btw) changed the spec again.
(Reason for all this is I ony have a 250M HD in my laptop, and I don't need
to cram it full of MS crap).

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\07\01@083251 by Andy Kunz

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>languages with non-ASCII glyphs, like umlauts and accents. Whither Unicode?

So downloads can take twice as long...

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

1997\07\02@002518 by Mike Smith

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> From: Clyde Smith-Stubbs <@spam@clydeKILLspamspamHTSOFT.COM>
> To: KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mail formatting
> Date: Tuesday, 1 July 1997 19:42
>
> On Tue, Jul 01, 1997 at 07:16:19PM +0930, Mike Smith wrote:
>
> > Yes, I understand that, but how long is the 'lowest common denominator'
> > factor going to hold?  1, 10, 100 years?  Ascii's been going at least
10,
> > but I'd hate to be still using it in 20 years.
>
> At least 10? A little off, methinks. I've been using it for 25 years, so

'At least'  implies 10 or more.  Since (25 >= 10) == TRUE , my statement
holds.  I used 10 as that was the midrange of my series of numbers, I
suppose I could have said
2.5, 25, 250 ; but it seemed clumsy, and the human mind is fairly used to
dealing with base 10.  <G>

> the prospect of still using it in another 20 doesn't hold any great fear.

Ascii is nice to program with, but I'm sure an RTF app, if it found
straight ascii, could handle it.

> Probably the chief objection to ASCII is that it doesn't cater for
> languages with non-ASCII glyphs, like umlauts and accents. Whither
Unicode?

Nice if you use NT, where it is default.  95 will live with it, in a
begrudging manner.  The notion of pushing it into legacy 3.11 apps - no
way!

MikeS
<RemoveMEmikesmith_ozTakeThisOuTspamrelaymail.net>

1997\07\02@002524 by Mike Smith

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> From: Andy Kunz <spamBeGonemontanaspamBeGonespamFAST.NET>
> To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mail formatting
> Date: Tuesday, 1 July 1997 21:53
>
> >languages with non-ASCII glyphs, like umlauts and accents. Whither
Unicode?
>
> So downloads can take twice as long...

Two times is not a problem, unless you're getting mail in the 100's of k's
volume.  The PICLIST  volume takes less than a minute.  2 x would be less
than 2 minutes.  It's like UI response times.  If a screen redraws in 2mS
instead of 1mS, who really cares?  (apart from benchmark programs)

MikeS
<RemoveMEmikesmith_ozspamTakeThisOuTrelaymail.net>

1997\07\02@002530 by Mike Smith

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> From: Andy Kunz <montanaEraseMEspam.....FAST.NET>
> To: EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mail formatting
> Date: Tuesday, 1 July 1997 21:52
>
> >sorts of clever things with html, rtf and the rest, but those
"standards"
> >aren't set in stone, and it's very easy to find that something is
missing,
>
> Here's a typical reason.  I use Winword 8, a customer uses Winword 5.  He
> wants to get a file off my laptop, so I save it as RTF for him.  He can't
> read it - Microsoft (the definer of RTF, btw) changed the spec again.
> (Reason for all this is I ony have a 250M HD in my laptop, and I don't
need
> to cram it full of MS crap).

AAArrgh!  You *would* think that if a RTF converter did not recognise
something, it would emit the offending code in plain text, allowing the
user to decide what to do.

MikeS
<RemoveMEmikesmith_ozEraseMEspamEraseMErelaymail.net>

1997\07\02@081040 by Andy Kunz

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>AAArrgh!  You *would* think that if a RTF converter did not recognise
>something, it would emit the offending code in plain text, allowing the
>user to decide what to do.

Remember, we're talking Microsnot here, not real people.  To be fair, some
of what was in the file was diagram (WMF file), but even that should be OK
- it's another of their "standards."

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Montana Design - 409 S 6th St - Phillipsburg, NJ 08865
         Hardware & Software for Industry & R/C Hobbies
       "Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!"
==================================================================

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