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PICList Thread
'Mail List Scolding'
1999\01\05@091335 by Roger Morella

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I recently read a posting from a man who scolded someone on the list for
not being mail list savvy.  He did it a way that was berating and quite
insensitve.  I'm not sure if he was trying to educate the person or show
the rest of us what a pompous baboon he himself is.  While critisizing
the person for not using "common sense", he failed to use common sense
himself.   I remember an instant when I made the big mistake of sending
an off topic message across a whole group of mailing lists.  At the time
I was ignorant of the ways of mailing lists.  One of the mailing list
members e'mailed me with a nasty note telling me what a jerk I was.  The
big difference was that instead of berating me in front of the whole
list, he had the courtesy (and common sense) to e'mail me directly and
not waste bandwidth by sending his comments to the whole list.  Please,
if someone does something improper on the mailing list, e'mail them
directly. And if you send them a copy of the Mailing list FAQ along with
it, you might actually be doing him and the rest of us a favor.  Don't
tell the rest of us what he did.  Chances are the rest of us already
know and some of us have already e'mailed him directly to inform him of
his mistake.  This is a new experience for a lot of people.  Don't make
it any harder than it has to be.

1999\01\05@102751 by Frank Hreczuch

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I think you hit it on the head !!....and taking this a bit further......

I am one of those who is not particularly "mail list savvy".  I've only
been on this list now for about a year and am still not sure how to
respond in a proper manner here.  I guess you might say I am one of
those afraid to ask questions for fear of being ridiculed.  I've seen
some of the tongue-lashing here in the past and has made me think twice
before asking what might be considered a dumb question.

I realize that there are those who know much more than I do when it
comes to PICs...and I accept that.  It's unfortunate that many 'newbies'
sit on the sideline because we don't know exactly how to ask for help,
or know what to expect !  And, yes...."This is a new experience for a
lot of people".

Well, I belive I've said enough....now I'll run off to the sideline and
duck !!!

regards,
Frank
.....................................

Roger Morella wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\01\05@121228 by Keith Causey

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Thanks Roger,
   Too many people think that after programming a PIC, programming a person
is an isomorphic process. :o)
                               Keith Causey

1999\01\05@133139 by Paul Fletcher

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I totally agree with you Frank, as members of this list we are ALL here to
better our understanding of the PIC. ANY one of us should feel comfortable
submitting a posting without facing fire for doing so. I do feel there are
some people
out there that just enjoy putting others down, which is very sad and is dead
against
the principle of why we join these lists in the first place.

Paul Fletcher.


Frank Hreczuch wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\01\05@185402 by Michael J. Ghormley

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<Michael assends his trusty soapbox>

One of the great strengths of this list is that it has somehow NOT
generated into a continual series of "pissing contests" as many of the
newsgroups have.

I know that I have bitten my toungue on more than one occasion to keep from
escalating some insensitive and rude remark into something ruder and more
insensitive.

I have also felt it necessary to attach some small caveat to some of my
posts such as:
       (flame sheilds up!)
or some such.  I wish that this could be a more open exchange where one is
allowed the occasional mistake (which should be promptly and politely
corrected, of course) in order to avail ourselves of the collective wisdom
of the group.

I, for one, welcome "newbie" (some have called them stupid) questions as I
sometimes think that they are the only ones that I am qualified in
answering.  And the occasional wrong answer has at its core a kernel of
good in that, once corrected, we will all be on the right track.  We will
all share the collective knowledge.

That's my point on this scattergraph.

<Micheal steps down places the soapbox somewhere nearby>

Michael

* TAKE THE '.NOSPAM' OUT OF MY ADDRESS TO REPLY
**********************************************
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too hard to read anyway!
                                 Groucho Marx
**********************************************

1999\01\05@212848 by Jaume Aragay Badia

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       I've been reading the list for a couple of weeks before sending my first
email; there is the same problem in IRC channels and in any place where many
people get together: there HAS to be a "black sheep" needing to show to the
world his pretended knowledge on everything.

       Everyone is a newbie in some topics, that's why mail lists work fine to
SHARE experiences. I've recieved quite polite emails besides of the list to
tell me the things I was doing wrong, and an EXPLANATION on how to SOLVE
this mistakes, and this kind of messages are the ones that really help.

       In my short experience here I've already noticed some of this "newbie
killer" emails, but most of them are not, so: DON'T BE AFRAID TO ASK, it
worked fine for me, and remember that no one was born knowing everything, we
all have to learn and sharing the knowledge reinforces it.


Jaume.

----------------------
 Jaume Aragay Badia
  spam_OUTaragayTakeThisOuTspamemail.com
----------------------

1999\01\05@214548 by Keith Causey

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Dear fellow PIClisters,

  It is really refreshing to see all the responses to this thread. It
reinforces my hope that most people can communicate and enjoy communicating.
Sometimes we do cruel things because we have never had them done to us and
don't know what it feels like. Let us not forget that the pretentious
misanthrope (they know who they are)  who sent the scalding diatribe is a
person too. As a subscriber to this list I'm sure he read all of this and
has been soundly spanked.

                                       Happy Information Sharing
                                       Keith Causey

1999\01\05@214930 by James Cameron

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Roger Morella wrote:
> I recently read a posting from a man who scolded someone on the list
> for not being mail list savvy.

Oh dear, I've done it again, sorry.

> He did it a way that was berating and quite insensitve.

Yep, I do that a bit ... half the problem is that I know what I am
writing and I don't mean to be berating and insensitive, but the problem
is that all those people out there have receivers on different baud
rates, so to speak, and the data arrives filtered.  Semantic differences
even within the same country, sometimes.

> I'm not sure if he was trying to educate the person or show
> the rest of us what a pompous baboon he himself is.

Sometimes I copy the list on such a reply so that the rest of the list
doesn't have to send a private reply as well.  A second order effect;
reducing the amount of private mail that has to be sent.

Standing order: please tell me if I appear to be insensitive.

I will try harder to stick to private insensitivity.  ;-)

--
James Cameron                                      (.....cameronKILLspamspam@spam@stl.dec.com)

OpenVMS, Linux, Firewalls, Software Engineering, CGI, HTTP, X, C, FORTH,
COBOL, BASIC, DCL, csh, bash, ksh, sh, Electronics, Microcontrollers,
Disability Engineering, Netrek, Bicycles, Pedant, Farming, Home Control,
Remote Area Power, Greek Scholar, Tenor Vocalist, Church Sound, Husband.

"Specialisation is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein.

1999\01\06@092030 by lilel

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I've made several (I think successful) pleas for civility on this
list.  Among them are:

1.  Gently reminding people who trash newbies or Unsubscribe-impaired
individuals that, three or four years ago they were probably new too.


2.  Emailing unsubscribing-impaired people privately with a cheery
note telling them how to unsubscribe.

3.  Trying to respond most to newbie questions.  Frankly, most of the
advanced discussions on this list get out of my league pretty quickly
when they discuss some cryptographic subtlety or other esoteric
subject.  I kinda like the basics.

4.  Trying to encourage new people.  How else do you learn this
stuff?

5. Trying to gently discourage those who trash the new folks
(offline)


New electronic medium, including mailing lists and
newsgroups, tends to be a harsh, informal, impersonal and rude
medium.  People fire off an email before they have calmed down and
thought deeply about things (present company excepted.)  Most of the
time when I have responded in anger I have regretted it later.


-- Lawrence Lile

=> Median Filter Source Code
=> AutoCad blocks for electrical drafting
=> Brownout tester plans
=> Amateurish pictures of my family

at:  http://home1.gte.net/llile/index.htm

1999\01\06@185115 by Scott Shidel...

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On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Frank Hreczuch wrote:
> respond in a proper manner here.  I guess you might say I am one of
> those afraid to ask questions for fear of being ridiculed.  I've seen
> some of the tongue-lashing here in the past and has made me think twice
> before asking what might be considered a dumb question.

Dont worry..if someone flames you for asking a on topic question, they are
the moron and not you.  I am a total beginner at PICs, but judging from
other lists I am on I assume that every skill level is
welcome here.
I have already posted questions with the feeling that "damn, everyone is
going to think i am dumb askin this", but its only email, and having a few
faceless people think you arent skilled is 100 times better than sitting
there pounding your head over and over with manuals and data sheets.
You will get the occasional know it all pompous jerk that will feel the
need to show his superiority to you, but just blow it off because you will
usually get more cureous replies anyhow.


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