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PICList Thread
'Magenta ICD'
2000\03\12@141745 by Nigel Goodwin

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picon face
Following my earlier message about problems with the LCD demo program,
I've managed to find the problem. As I said I would, I single stepped
through the program (in particular the LCD initialisation routine) and
checked the voltages on the pins of the LCD display. The data pins on
the display changed fine, but the 'E' pin didn't toggle as it was
supposed to. Checking through the source code I found out the connection
instructions had been typed incorrectly, and the 'E' and 'RS' lines were
reversed, swopping the two wires over cured the problem :-).

I've E-mailed Magenta to let them know!.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : spam_OUTnigelgTakeThisOuTspamlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
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       | England         |                 Ju Jitsu                   |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

2000\03\12@152600 by Saeed Saeed

picon face
Where can I find this program at?

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Nigel Goodwin
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 11:55 AM
To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Magenta ICD


Following my earlier message about problems with the LCD demo program,
I've managed to find the problem. As I said I would, I single stepped
through the program (in particular the LCD initialisation routine) and
checked the voltages on the pins of the LCD display. The data pins on
the display changed fine, but the 'E' pin didn't toggle as it was
supposed to. Checking through the source code I found out the connection
instructions had been typed incorrectly, and the 'E' and 'RS' lines were
reversed, swopping the two wires over cured the problem :-).

I've E-mailed Magenta to let them know!.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : .....nigelgKILLspamspam.....lpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    | Official site for Shin Ki and New Spirit   |
       | England         |                 Ju Jitsu                   |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

2000\03\12@171948 by Reginald Neale

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<x-flowed>What does this package do that the simulation function of MPLAB
doesn't do? The Watch Window etc. looks very similar. How does it
handle devices that have built in A/D?

Reg Neale

</x-flowed>

2000\03\13@121330 by jamesnewton

face picon face
The difference is that with (any) ICD you are actually watching what the
actual chip is doing (including A/D, USART, etc...) rather than what a
program written on the PC THINKs the chip will be doing. Its the difference
between a gang killing and playing D&D. One is real the other is not. Your
code will stay alive in the SIM in many cases where it is going to actually
die when it gets in the real chip. SIMs are doomed to succeed.

ICD rules! If you can't get an ICD, second best is an EMU.

---
James Newton EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)


-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Reginald Neale
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 17:15
To: @spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Magenta ICD


What does this package do that the simulation function of MPLAB
doesn't do? The Watch Window etc. looks very similar. How does it
handle devices that have built in A/D?

Reg Neale

2000\03\13@131432 by Jerry Merrill

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James:

I agree that real hardware is far superior to simulation.  Although
simulations can be quite accurate, it is very difficult to specify stimuli
that mimics real-world and even more difficult to make that virtual world
interact with the simulated PIC.  Of course, it is also very non-real-time.

HOWEVER, I have to disagree on one point you have stressed several times
now: that an ICD is SUPERIOR to an ICE.  I am obviously biased since I
produce an ICE, but then again....you are about to produce an ICD so I
think its fair.:)

You may have had some bad experiences with old ICEs in the past but those
were probably due to inferior products that did not use real bondouts.
Those experiences should not extrapolate to the idea that ICEs are inferior
to monitor based debugging by definition.

The slave bondouts provided by Microchip for their devices use REAL
PRODUCTION SILICON.  This means that a properly designed ICE is not
'trying' to emulate the 'REAL' device; it **IS** the real device.  -Same
peripherals, Same I/O characteristics, same timing, same personality
(quirks and all), SAME SILICON.

The difference is that the bondout makes more of the internals of the
device visible so that an ICE manufacturer can add external hardware.  This
extra visibility and control allows us to add things like execution
tracing, timing, unlimited CODE breakpoints, data monitoring and breaking,
and detecting and breaking on STACK over/under flow.  Of course, it also
allows us to load the user programs into SRAM instead of reprogramming
FLASH.  Finally, it allows us to do all of this without using ANY of the
processor's resources; no interrupts, no stack space, no code space, no RAM
space(file registers), no I/O pins.

If you have a small budget then an ICD is the best you can afford, making
it the best choice for your budget.  But that does not make it BETTER, just
the BEST you can afford

Don't get me wrong. I think an ICD is a great compromise if you can't
afford a real ICE.

ICE rules! If you can't get an ICE, second best is an ICD!  :)

<SNIP>
>
>ICD rules! If you can't get an ICD, second best is an EMU.
>
>---
>James Newton KILLspamjamesnewtonKILLspamspamgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
>http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
>Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)
>

Jerry Merrill

RemoveMEjerrymTakeThisOuTspamtech-tools.com
http://www.tech-tools.com
FAX: (972) 494-5814
VOICE:(972) 272-9392
TechTools
PO Box 462101
Garland,  TX  75046-2101

2000\03\13@142139 by jamesnewton

face picon face
I love a good argument <GRIN>

Facts remain:
1. ICE is NOT a production chip. They are modified versions of production
chips. They may be very close... and I'm willing to give that they will
probably work just as production chip in 99.999999 percent of cases. But
they are NOT production chips. Can't ICE actual production device. You must
remove the production CPU and insert ICE.

2. Expense does matter and does make ICE not as good as ICD. Especially to
"the rest of us." The "if you can't afford..." thing really gets me going.
<GRIN>

3. Extra features of ICE are (IMH(N)O) minor compared to extra cost. I can
see most all the things you mentioned happening from ICD as "after the fact"
type of "oh! that's what must have happened" events. Not as good, but still
ok.

Points conceded:
1. ICE doesn't use processor resources (like RB6&7, registers etc...) but
these are details of MCHip implementation. Scenix "did it right" and used
the OSC pins so no processor resources are involved.

2. Not all target processors have ICD and almost all have ICE of some sort
or another. As I said, if you can't get ICD, ICE is next choice. <GRIN>

3. Some extra features of ICE are nice to have.

To be completely honest, the intensity of my opinions on this point are
"penis envy" to a large degree. I can't afford to have ICE for every
processor I'm interested in and it galls me.  I think a lot of hobbyists
(and maybe a few pros?) feel the same way. I can ask for and maybe get ICE
from some of my clients, but that will never satisfy my desire to be able to
"look inside" all the chips I want to work with. I want to make cheap ICD
(or ICE if that were possible) available for a little more than the cost of
the processor.

Just to clear up a point: I have no intention of releasing an ICD device as
a "I developed it" for profit device. I want to see ICD abilities either A)
so low in cost that you might as well buy it (and the $80 price with the
upcoming MChip Seminars gets that close) or B) open source, you breadboard
it with a RS232 level converter and some cables, like Tony Nixons ASCII
programmer or ROMZAP bootloader.

Throwing in test bench and programming abilities for other devices like Dan
Michael's WS(C)T:
http://www.sni.net/~oricom/projects.htm
or just ICD and programming like the "rumor" for the WARP-13 programmer
from:
http://www.new-elect.com
makes for an even nicer way to get started or add some inexpensive extra
ability to a pro bench.

So, when is TECH-TOOLS coming out with a combined Test-bench, programmer,
ICD for $50? <VBG>

---
James Newton spamBeGonejamesnewtonspamBeGonespamgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)


{Original Message removed}

2000\03\13@150424 by Jason Harper

picon face
> The slave bondouts provided by Microchip for their devices use REAL
> PRODUCTION SILICON.  This means that a properly designed ICE is not
> 'trying' to emulate the 'REAL' device; it **IS** the real device.  -Same
> peripherals, Same I/O characteristics, same timing, same personality
> (quirks and all), SAME SILICON.

Just out of curiosity, are these bondout versions of PICs available to the
general public (for homemade ICEs), or is this something that you have to
special order in quantities of a zillion?  I haven't seen this even
mentioned as an option on any of the PIC device datasheets I've read, or
anywhere on Microchip's website.
       Jason Harper

2000\03\13@160347 by Jerry Merrill

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face
>
>Just out of curiosity, are these bondout versions of PICs available to the
>general public (for homemade ICEs), or is this something that you have to
>special order in quantities of a zillion?

No.  They are provided under NDA  (non-disclosure agreement) and a 3rd
party agreement.  It does not require zillion piece orders, but does
require a working 3rd party relationship with Microchip.

>I haven't seen this even
>mentioned as an option on any of the PIC device datasheets I've read, or
>anywhere on Microchip's website.
>        Jason Harper
>

You won't.  They are not available for general sale.

IMHO, this is due to several reasons:
1. They are of insignificant volume compared to production packaged
devices. They are produced as a 'necessary evil'.  They do not make money
on the bondouts but still must produce them so that users can buy high
powered development tools (so they will design-in production chips).
2. They require additional information (under NDA) to understand how to
implement them.
3. Tech support would be impossible for Microchip - the normal FAEs and
support personnel have no reason to be knowledgeable about these
applications.  Only Microchip's own ICE group and 3rd party ICE developers
would really need to be familiar with the nuances of implementing ICE
functions.  By limiting access to these devices and the associated
documentation, Microchip limits their support exposure to their production
parts.


Jerry Merrill

TakeThisOuTjerrymEraseMEspamspam_OUTtech-tools.com
http://www.tech-tools.com
FAX: (972) 494-5814
VOICE:(972) 272-9392
TechTools
PO Box 462101
Garland,  TX  75046-2101

2000\03\13@165014 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <RemoveMENDBBKGDCCLOPMOPDIPEAIEFLCCAA.sas76spamTakeThisOuTcornell.edu>, Saeed Saeed
<sas76EraseMEspam.....CORNELL.EDU> writes
>Where can I find this program at?

You can download the IceBreaker software from either EPE 'http://www.epe
mag.wimborne.co.uk' or Magenta 'http://www.magenta2000.co.uk', but I
don't know if they include the demo programs or not - they were supplied
on the floppy disk with the IceBreaker kit.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : EraseMEnigelgspamlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    | Official site for Shin Ki and New Spirit   |
       | England         |                 Ju Jitsu                   |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

2000\03\13@165023 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <v0421011cb4f1daf37209@[24.161.74.175]>, Reginald Neale
<RemoveMErnealeEraseMEspamEraseMEPOP-SERVER.ROCHESTER.RR.COM> writes
>What does this package do that the simulation function of MPLAB
>doesn't do? The Watch Window etc. looks very similar. How does it
>handle devices that have built in A/D?

It uses a pre-programmed 16F877, and as such you can use all the
functions of that chip, with the obvious exceptions of the pins and
memory used for interfacing to the PC. The advantage over a simulator is
that it runs in actual hardware, so can be connected to your physical
sensors etc., plus it runs at full speed as well.

My next little test project is to use the A/D and display the results on
the LCD screen.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : RemoveMEnigelgspam_OUTspamKILLspamlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    | Official site for Shin Ki and New Spirit   |
       | England         |                 Ju Jitsu                   |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

2000\03\13@170106 by Jerry Merrill

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At 01:20 PM 3/13/00 , you wrote:
>I love a good argument <GRIN>
>

I thought that might make your day.

>Facts remain:
>1. ICE is NOT a production chip. They are modified versions of production
>chips. They may be very close... and I'm willing to give that they will
>probably work just as production chip in 99.999999 percent of cases. But
>they are NOT production chips. Can't ICE actual production device. You must
>remove the production CPU and insert ICE.
>

I still disagree.  You are correct that you must replace the PRODUCTION
chip with the ICE.  However, the target side of the ICE is a direct
connection between the target pins and the bondout.  Inside of the bondout,
these pins are bonded directly to PRODUCTION silicon...REALLY!  The
bondouts do not LOOK like the normal production ships because they are
bonded to a larger pin frame to allow the extra signals to brought out.  I
will concede that the ICE adds a cable and connectors to the equation, but
the silicon at the end of the wire is IDENTICAL to the silicon molded into
production chips.


>2. Expense does matter and does make ICE not as good as ICD. Especially to
>"the rest of us." The "if you can't afford..." thing really gets me going.
><GRIN>
>

Agreed. Expense is certainly part of the equation and an ICD wins that
point hands-down.  I do not consider ICD users as 2nd class developers,
just under budgeted :)  I would probably not justify buying an ICE for
myself unless I were a consultant.  I would expect my boss to foot that bill.

>3. Extra features of ICE are (IMH(N)O) minor compared to extra cost. I can
>see most all the things you mentioned happening from ICD as "after the fact"
>type of "oh! that's what must have happened" events. Not as good, but still
>ok.
>

You always learn to work with what you have.  I've worked on projects at
other companies where NO debugging tools were provided.  In that case, you
buy your own (ouch), find a debug monitor (if target resources allow), use
'print' type debugging or even crash-n-burn (extensive desk-checking, add
what-if code fragments to test hypothesis about what is going wrong,
program a part, and observe.)

An ICE can save weeks of work sometimes.  For example, an ICE can tell you
WHICH line of code set a particular variable to a particular value!  This
is a very dynamic type of bug that can be captured instantly with an ICE
but is extremely difficult to deduce.

It really comes down to an evaluation of the cost of tools vs. time.

>Points conceded:
>1. ICE doesn't use processor resources (like RB6&7, registers etc...) but
>these are details of MCHip implementation. Scenix "did it right" and used
>the OSC pins so no processor resources are involved.
>

Agreed on the usage of OSC pins for debugger communications - very slick.

>2. Not all target processors have ICD and almost all have ICE of some sort
>or another. As I said, if you can't get ICD, ICE is next choice. <GRIN>
>
>3. Some extra features of ICE are nice to have.
>
>To be completely honest, the intensity of my opinions on this point are
>"penis envy" to a large degree.

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of sour-grapes but......I guess
you would know better than I <GRIN>

{Quote hidden}

I'll check with the employees, our suppliers, the electric company, phone
company, mortgage company, grocery store, microwarehouse, Amazon, Dell and
Microsoft.  If they will all continue providing their services/products to
me and reduce their prices to single digit percentages of their costs, then
so will I.  Until that unlikely deflationary event, I'll have to continue
charging enough to pay what they all demand and still have enough left over
to feed my wife and kid :)   I don't think I could come close to paying the
electric bill, let alone any salaries at that price point. (hmmm....maybe
if I took a day-time job...).


>
>---
>James Newton RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspamspamgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
>http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
>Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)
>
>
>{Original Message removed}

2000\03\13@195915 by Marc

flavicon
face
> The slave bondouts provided by Microchip for their devices use REAL
> PRODUCTION SILICON.  This means that a properly designed ICE is not
> 'trying' to emulate the 'REAL' device; it **IS** the real device.  -Same
> peripherals, Same I/O characteristics, same timing, same personality
> (quirks and all), SAME SILICON.


That lets me thing about code protection.  When someone can etch a production
chip open and bond the bondout-dedicated extra pads to his attack device,
he can read out the secret firmware, can't he?

It sounds like being possible to do at home.

2000\03\13@200322 by Quitt, Walter

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face
Do you have a wire bonder kicking around?

http://www.bonders.com

Our parent company....

-W

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc [EraseMEmarcspamspamspamBeGoneAARGH.FRANKEN.DE]
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 3:37 PM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Magenta ICD


> The slave bondouts provided by Microchip for their devices use REAL
> PRODUCTION SILICON.  This means that a properly designed ICE is not
> 'trying' to emulate the 'REAL' device; it **IS** the real device.  -Same
> peripherals, Same I/O characteristics, same timing, same personality
> (quirks and all), SAME SILICON.


That lets me thing about code protection.  When someone can etch a
production
chip open and bond the bondout-dedicated extra pads to his attack device,
he can read out the secret firmware, can't he?

It sounds like being possible to do at home.

2000\03\13@224855 by Reginald Neale

flavicon
face
<x-flowed>>In message <v0421011cb4f1daf37209@[24.161.74.175]>, Reginald Neale
><rnealeSTOPspamspamspam_OUTPOP-SERVER.ROCHESTER.RR.COM> writes
> >What does this package do that the simulation function of MPLAB
> >doesn't do? The Watch Window etc. looks very similar. How does it
> >handle devices that have built in A/D?
>
>It uses a pre-programmed 16F877, and as such you can use all the
>functions of that chip, with the obvious exceptions of the pins and
>memory used for interfacing to the PC. The advantage over a simulator is
>that it runs in actual hardware, so can be connected to your physical
>sensors etc., plus it runs at full speed as well.
>
>My next little test project is to use the A/D and display the results on
>the LCD screen.
>--

Nigel:

Thanks for your reply. I'm still a little confused. Does it allow you
to debug code for devices other than the 16F877? Are you limited to
devices that have the extra 4K for the debugging code?

Thanks,
Reg

</x-flowed>

2000\03\14@133408 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
picon face
In message <v04210102b4f35d93848a@[24.161.74.175]>, Reginald Neale
<spamBeGonernealeSTOPspamspamEraseMEPOP-SERVER.ROCHESTER.RR.COM> writes
>Thanks for your reply. I'm still a little confused. Does it allow you
>to debug code for devices other than the 16F877? Are you limited to
>devices that have the extra 4K for the debugging code?

You can debug code for 'many' of the PIC's, as the code will often run
on the 16F877 - obviously you may have to make a few minor adjustments,
such as the location of the data registers which start higher for the
16F877 than the 16F84 (for instance).
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : KILLspamnigelgspamBeGonespamlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    | Official site for Shin Ki and New Spirit   |
       | England         |                 Ju Jitsu                   |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

2000\03\14@201457 by Marc

flavicon
face
> > That lets me thing about code protection.  When someone can etch a
> > production
> > chip open and bond the bondout-dedicated extra pads to his attack device,
> > he can read out the secret firmware, can't he?
> >
> > It sounds like being possible to do at home.
>
> Do you have a wire bonder kicking around?

No, but I talked to someone who has bonded a few wires to testpads
on silicon with just caps connected to them as energy source.  Not
good for busses, but busses could be read one bit at a time.

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