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'MPLAB with HP Palmtop windows CE'
1997\08\01@175616 by Stephen H Alsop

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Does anyone know if MPLAB can be run on the new
Hewlett Packard Palmtop computers which have a small
version of Window preinstalled (call Windows CE)

If anyone has done this then I would be pleased to know how

Thanks

Stephen H Alsop    email: spam_OUTsteveTakeThisOuTspams.ssystems.easynet.co.uk
S&S Systems Ltd   www: http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~s.ssystems
Tel: 01909 773399 * Fax: 01909 773645

1997\08\01@194822 by PeterS

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Sadly not, as Microchip are still in 16-bit land and Windows CE requires
Win32 apps. Additionally, MPLAB would need to be recompiled for each
different vendor processor type.

When will the world move away from 16-bit apps? Who last bought a copy of
Windows 3.1?

Peter S


{Original Message removed}

1997\08\02@031106 by Mike

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At 05:35 PM 8/1/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Sadly not, as Microchip are still in 16-bit land and Windows CE requires
>Win32 apps. Additionally, MPLAB would need to be recompiled for each
>different vendor processor type.
>
>When will the world move away from 16-bit apps? Who last bought a copy of
>Windows 3.1?
>
>Peter S

What makes you think 32 bit apps are more efficient ?

Windows 95 is 95% 16 bit drivers and libraries most of which is ported
over from win 3.11.

there is a lot of propoganda and hype Win NT comes close to be a 32 bit app
but even that uses 16 bit dlls !

rdgs

mike

1997\08\02@045451 by Mike Smith

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---Original Message-----
From: Mike <.....erazmusKILLspamspam@spam@WANTREE.COM.AU>
To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Saturday, 2 August 1997 17:15
Subject: Re: MPLAB with HP Palmtop windows CE



{Quote hidden}

That wasn't what he claimed.  CPM on a Z80 machine loads WordStar faster
than NT on a Pentium can load Word, but I know which I'd sooner use...
OTOH, Word stinks for editing straight text.

>Windows 95 is 95% 16 bit drivers and libraries most of which is ported
>over from win 3.11.

Are you *sure* about those percentages?  Most of the V-drivers are 32 bit
(quite a number were in 3.11 for example, the disk access system)  The
memory/system stuff is 32 bit.  Most of the GDI is thunked to 16 bit though.

>
>there is a lot of propoganda and hype Win NT comes close to be a 32 bit app
>but even that uses 16 bit dlls !
>

Only for running 16 bit Windows programs, I think.

MikeS
<EraseMEmikesmith_ozspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTrelaymail.net>

I thunk, therefore I Windows.

1997\08\02@122429 by Eric van Es

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Mike wrote:

{Quote hidden}

So is there a TRUE 32-bit OS out there?
What will Win97 be? (If ever it surfaces from the rumours!)

--
eric van es
Mailto:vanesspamspam_OUTilink.nis.za  WWW: http://www.nis.za/~vanes/
Cape Town, South-Africa
Looking for TEMPORARY/HOLIDAY ACCOMMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

1997\08\02@141122 by Leon Heller

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In message <PICLIST%@spam@97080117561683KILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, Stephen H Alsop
<KILLspams.ssystemsKILLspamspamEASYNET.CO.UK> writes
>Does anyone know if MPLAB can be run on the new
>Hewlett Packard Palmtop computers which have a small
>version of Window preinstalled (call Windows CE)
>
>If anyone has done this then I would be pleased to know how
>

I've got the HP 320LX. It won't run ordinary Windows software, however,
(or even DOS applications) because it doesn't use an 80X86 CPU. All the
new Windows CE palmtops use either the Hitachi SH3 or MIPS RISC
processors.

The next version of Windows CE will also be available for the 80X86, but
palmtops with these processors won't run ordinary Windows software
either, because the OS is so different. If the source code was
available, it wouldn't be too diificult to get small Windows
applications like MPLAB running on these palmtops, as the standard
development system is Visual C++ for Windows CE, that is used with the
ordinary Visual C++ compiler. I've just ordered it from MS.

Leon
--
Leon Heller: RemoveMEleonTakeThisOuTspamlfheller.demon.co.uk http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 118 947 1424
See http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk/rcm.htm for details of a
low-cost reconfigurable computing module using the XC6216 FPGA

1997\08\02@141753 by Mike

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At 06:25 PM 8/2/97 +0930, you wrote:

>>What makes you think 32 bit apps are more efficient ?
>>
>
>That wasn't what he claimed.  CPM on a Z80 machine loads WordStar faster
>than NT on a Pentium can load Word, but I know which I'd sooner use...
>OTOH, Word stinks for editing straight text.

True - I made an interpetation based on the paradigm initiating his query.

>>Windows 95 is 95% 16 bit drivers and libraries most of which is ported
>>over from win 3.11.
>
>Are you *sure* about those percentages?  Most of the V-drivers are 32 bit
>(quite a number were in 3.11 for example, the disk access system)  The
>memory/system stuff is 32 bit.  Most of the GDI is thunked to 16 bit though.

No - but 95 for 95 - they were real cute numbers - I don't think its too
far off though.

>>there is a lot of propoganda and hype Win NT comes close to be a 32 bit app
>>but even that uses 16 bit dlls !

>Only for running 16 bit Windows programs, I think.

Not sure about the history - but it would be efficient for lots of 16 bit
code to handle smaller data items like characters - why would any OS
writer limit one instruction to 32 bits when they could get more than one ?

Rgds

mike
Perth, Western Australia

1997\08\02@161351 by Tim Kerby

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Hi
I don't think it would run anway due to its memory and disk space
requirements.  I also think that applications tend to have to be ported to
windows CE due to the reduced enviroment.  I am however working on some pic
stuff for the new Psion Series 5 at the moment (when I get one in the next
week) which should be at beta stage by xmas if I get things together.
Maybe only an assembler and programmer to start but I might add to that.


Tim


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1997\08\02@163049 by PeterS

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Where on earth have you been? 16bit apps on Intel are horrendously inefficient.
Flat model anything is better than Intel segmented stuff.

You're way off the mark on Win95. It is certainly not true 32 bit but 95% 16bit
- catch a clue.

NT IS 32 bit. Only 16bit code is used where 16bit compatibility is needed.

Peter S

{Original Message removed}

1997\08\02@180856 by Darrel Johansen

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I wonder if anyone out there has tried MPLAB with the Toshiba Libretto?
It's only now becoming available outside of Japan, but it runs Win 95,
not CE.  It should run MPLAB, I would think.

Darrel
Tempe, AZ

1997\08\02@204956 by Griffith Wm. Kadnier

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WinNT IS a true 32 bit OS. It just provides 16 bit dlls for running legacy
apps ala Win 3.1.

If all you run is 32 bit applications, WinNT never even tries to load or
intercept any 16 bit code.

I would venture a guess that MCHIP has no in-house expertise or interest in
porting their (already) running apps to Win32. And they probably WON'T,
until they are forced to by market pressure.

They might even use BIOS calls, or non-standard library code to do direct
RS232 communication to the programmers/ICE's (a no-no in the Win32 world).

After all, they are a uP house, not a Windows dev OEM. If it works OK with
Win95 (and it does), they probably figure..."don't break it!"

That said, I'll put SoftIce for NT to work in the next few days, and see
what (and how) MPLAB is doing on an NT box.

gwk
Algorithmics Inc.

----------
{Quote hidden}

1997\08\03@025018 by Mike

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At 02:29 PM 8/2/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Where on earth have you been? 16bit apps on Intel are horrendously
inefficient.

Considering logic - are we talking about Apps with all their internal
management type programming or instructions themselves.

> Flat model anything is better than Intel segmented stuff.

Yes - totally agree - Intel put computing back 10 years when this came out :(

>You're way off the mark on Win95. It is certainly not true 32 bit but 95%
16bit
> - catch a clue.

Aye ? The vast proportion is a hodge podge of stuff which is 16 bit, th
numbers are obviously open to debate - it should be possible to scan the
code with a simple program which counts the number of 32 bit and 16 bit
instructions and outputs the proportion - the decoding wouldn't be too
hard since you wouldn't need to perform anywhere near a full dissassembly.

>NT IS 32 bit. Only 16bit code is used where 16bit compatibility is needed.

Alas - even NT has quite a  bit of 16 bit code in it - why would you want
full 32 bit addressing on smaller data structures - like disk drives OR
buffers etc ?

Are you saying you are going to force the OS to use 4 gigabyte addressing
(32bits) on everything - when 16 bit instructions can selectively be used
to operate on data structures of anything from one byte to 1 Megabyte ?

Rdgs

Mike
Perth, Western Australia

1997\08\03@025227 by Mike

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At 05:47 PM 8/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>WinNT IS a true 32 bit OS. It just provides 16 bit dlls for running legacy
>apps ala Win 3.1.

Sorry - no such thing as a true 32 bit operating system - what is the
collective definition of a 16 or 32 bit operating system ANYWAY ???

>If all you run is 32 bit applications, WinNT never even tries to load or
>intercept any 16 bit code.

It may not load a 16bit dll 'app' BUT I would be willing to bet it is
riddled with 16 bit code since its more efficient to selectively use
16 bit instructions when its just a complete waste of resources to try
and FORCE a 4 gigabyte address space on each and every data structure ?

Rgds

mike
Perth, Western Australia


Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes
academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that
theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic.
                                                                      Massen

1997\08\03@141557 by Leon Heller

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In message <3.0.1.32.19970802173539.006b0ae0EraseMEspam.....pop-3.ukonline.co.uk>, Tim
Kerby <EraseMEtim.kerbyspamUKONLINE.CO.UK> writes
>Hi
>I don't think it would run anway due to its memory and disk space
>requirements.  I also think that applications tend to have to be ported to
>windows CE due to the reduced enviroment.  I am however working on some pic
>stuff for the new Psion Series 5 at the moment (when I get one in the next
>week) which should be at beta stage by xmas if I get things together.
>Maybe only an assembler and programmer to start but I might add to that.

A former colleague of mine developed an 8051 x-assembler for the Psion
Series 3, primarily so that he could mess about with his hobby whilst
not neglecting his family.

Leon
--
Leon Heller: RemoveMEleonEraseMEspamEraseMElfheller.demon.co.uk http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 118 947 1424
See http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk/rcm.htm for details of a
low-cost reconfigurable computing module using the XC6216 FPGA

1997\08\03@223537 by Mike Smith

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---Original Message-----
From: Griffith Wm. Kadnier <RemoveMEgriffkspam_OUTspamKILLspamALGOINC.COM>
To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sunday, 3 August 1997 10:20
Subject: Re: MPLAB with HP Palmtop windows CE



{Quote hidden}

Lets all pray Win98 breaks it into tiny pieces.  *That* should make them sit
up and take notice.  At least one of their competition's ICE's uses a Win32
base - even in beta, the difference is noticable.

MikeS
<RemoveMEmikesmith_ozKILLspamspamrelaymail.net>

1997\08\03@224408 by Griffith Wm. Kadnier

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Mike,

Here Here. I would LOVE to do all of my PIC dev work on an NT box. Maybe
one of us can talk MCHIP into farming out a contract for the port ????  ;}

regards,
gwk
Algorithmics Inc.


----------
{Quote hidden}

legacy
> >apps ala Win 3.1.
> >
> >If all you run is 32 bit applications, WinNT never even tries to load or
> >intercept any 16 bit code.
> >
> >I would venture a guess that MCHIP has no in-house expertise or interest
in
> >porting their (already) running apps to Win32. And they probably WON'T,
> >until they are forced to by market pressure.
> >
> >They might even use BIOS calls, or non-standard library code to do
direct
> >RS232 communication to the programmers/ICE's (a no-no in the Win32
world).
> >
> >After all, they are a uP house, not a Windows dev OEM. If it works OK
with
> >Win95 (and it does), they probably figure..."don't break it!"
>
> Lets all pray Win98 breaks it into tiny pieces.  *That* should make them
sit
> up and take notice.  At least one of their competition's ICE's uses a
Win32
> base - even in beta, the difference is noticable.
>
> MikeS
> <spamBeGonemikesmith_ozspamKILLspamrelaymail.net>

1997\08\04@013707 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

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On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 07:43:15PM -0700, Griffith Wm. Kadnier wrote:

> Here Here. I would LOVE to do all of my PIC dev work on an NT box. Maybe
> one of us can talk MCHIP into farming out a contract for the port ????  ;}

They already did (can't say who to, but it wasn't us). That was about 12 months
ago (not a full 32 bit port, just an NT device driver).

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs  |HI-TECH Software,      |Email: .....clydespam_OUTspamhtsoft.com
Ph:  +61 7 3354 2411|P.O. Box 103, Alderley,|WWW:  http://www.htsoft.com/
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1997\08\04@025803 by avrbasic

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At 03:36 PM 4/8/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 07:43:15PM -0700, Griffith Wm. Kadnier wrote:
>
>> Here Here. I would LOVE to do all of my PIC dev work on an NT box. Maybe
>> one of us can talk MCHIP into farming out a contract for the port ????  ;}
>
>They already did (can't say who to, but it wasn't us). That was about 12 months
>ago (not a full 32 bit port, just an NT device driver).

12 months to write a NT driver?
I would read all the 42CD-ROM's from MSDN if required in 12 months.

:)

antti

No Limits                                 Go To
Basics of AVR                              AVR
AVRBASIC         http://www.avrbasic.com          Born for Basic

Grand opening in August.
Watch out for first week offers.

1997\08\04@081503 by ags

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> 12 months to write a NT driver?
> I would read all the 42CD-ROM's from MSDN if required in 12 months.
>
> :)
As someone that writes NT drivers for a living, there is much more involved than
would appear to the
uninitiated.
(Especially if you have misbehaving hardware designed by HW engineers that think
"Solder is my favorite
programming language" ;-) )

Have a great day!

--Alan G. Smith

+---------------------------------------------------------
| Alan G. Smith
| TakeThisOuTagsKILLspamspamspampoboxes.com
| http://www.innovatus.com/ags

1997\08\08@230911 by rajnish nischal

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On Sat, 2 Aug 1997 03:11:06 -0400 Mike wrote,

______________Orignal Message_________________

At 05:35 PM 8/1/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Sadly not, as Microchip are still in 16-bit land and Windows CE
requires
>Win32 apps. Additionally, MPLAB would need to be recompiled for each
>different vendor processor type.
>
>When will the world move away from 16-bit apps? Who last bought a copy
of
>Windows 3.1?
>
>Peter S

What makes you think 32 bit apps are more efficient ?

Windows 95 is 95% 16 bit drivers and libraries most of which is ported
over from win 3.11.

there is a lot of propoganda and hype Win NT comes close to be a 32 bit
app
but even that uses 16 bit dlls !

rdgs

mike
_________________________


Caught on the Web :

>Webster's Dictionary definition of Windows95:
>
>Windows95: <win-doz-nin-te-fiv> n.
>   32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an
>   8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor,
>   written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.


--

CarryOn

Rajnish.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

1997\08\09@032241 by Mike Smith

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---Original Message-----
From: rajnish nischal <.....rajnischalspamRemoveMEHOTMAIL.COM>
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU <spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Saturday, 9 August 1997 12:40
Subject: Re: MPLAB with HP Palmtop windows CE



{Quote hidden}

Addendum: - that gets endlessly criticised by ppl who are sour that they
didn't buy shares in it way back when... <g>

MikeS
<TakeThisOuTmikesmith_ozspamspamrelaymail.net>

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