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'MChip F___ Up!'
1999\09\09@163417 by Erik Reikes

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I just called my Microchip FAE and got some interesting news.  Supposedly
all production of the 16F8xx series has been pushed out 16-18weeks.
According to my calender that is 4 months, or Q1 2000.  On their web site
it says in production.

3 weeks ago they tell me 2 weeks for samples.  Now they tell me 4 months.
Guess its time to switch architectures.  They have got some serious
customer relations problems.

-E

1999\09\09@164255 by Andy Kunz

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>3 weeks ago they tell me 2 weeks for samples.  Now they tell me 4 months.
>Guess its time to switch architectures.  They have got some serious
>customer relations problems.

Same experience here.  Unfortunately, we have 2500 PCBs waiting for chips :-(

And a PO'd customer to boot.

"December" they say.

Andy

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1999\09\09@165726 by Erik Reikes

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At 04:41 PM 9/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>3 weeks ago they tell me 2 weeks for samples.  Now they tell me 4 months.
>>Guess its time to switch architectures.  They have got some serious
>>customer relations problems.
>
>Same experience here.  Unfortunately, we have 2500 PCBs waiting for chips :-(
>
>And a PO'd customer to boot.
>

I'm instantly bailing on them.  3-4 months is an awful damn long time for
something that was said to be here now.

I may go with H8, HC11 or the tried and true 8051 instead.

Anyone else have recommendations for 8bit MCUs with UARTS and possible AD's
in the sub $7 range?  FLASH would be ideal.  I know the H8's are at least
FLASH.  Don't know about the AD's


-E

1999\09\09@170352 by Dan Creagan

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A big question now is why?  I would hope it is secondary
suppliers - not a problem in the current chip design (of
which I have a few - just haven't dabbled a lot).

Dan

{Original Message removed}

1999\09\09@173039 by Dave VanHorn

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> Anyone else have recommendations for 8bit MCUs with UARTS and possible
AD's
> in the sub $7 range?  FLASH would be ideal.  I know the H8's are at least
> FLASH.  Don't know about the AD's


Atmel AVR8535  8 mhz, 8 mips, 8 channels of 10 bit ADC, vectored ints, 32
registers (no pages)  512 bytes of ram, 512 eeprom, 4kwords of program
memory, no uv erasers.   Development kit is $50, ICE is $200
Come to the dark side luke :)

1999\09\09@183740 by l.allen

picon face
{Quote hidden}

Motorola???????  <choke>... that was the reason I went to PICs!

I was about to throw a wobbly myself  at MChip when the 16F877s
finally arrived but I was being held back by the worry that
other uC makers might not be any better.... or worse?
_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand
_____________________________

1999\09\09@184412 by wsiemens

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You might want to consider the industry before heading to an Atmel product.
Atmel does not own their own fabs and the industry is starting to go on
"allocation". Try to buy some flash! Who do you think will give atmel fab
time if their own products are requiring it. Although if they have tons of
stock...

Wendall

{Original Message removed}

1999\09\09@185855 by Peter van Hoof

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I am also really p***ed off by this.
I have bought 10 pcs from digikey while I really needed about thirty but was
restricted in how many I could buy. I spent the money for three ICD's (one
for a colleague and two for me for work and play) and am stuck with my
project which has a deadline.

I have found numerous problems in the ICD. The errata on Microchips website
mentions problems with the a/d converter. And I am wondering if the whole
thing is just rushed too much.

I know there are probably spots where I can get enough chips to finish my
project (a small one) but I do need the a/d converter to operate properly.

I did already put more than a hundred hours in my code. and did sink too
much money in it to switch now.

I do doubt though that I will be going this same path next time

Atmel sounds better and better.

Peter van Hoof
-------------
pvhspamKILLspamvertonet.com
http://go.to/pvh

> {Original Message removed}

1999\09\09@193648 by Bob Drzyzgula

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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 01:58:46PM -0700, Erik Reikes wrote:
> At 04:41 PM 9/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >>3 weeks ago they tell me 2 weeks for samples.  Now they tell me 4 months.
> >>Guess its time to switch architectures.  They have got some serious
> >>customer relations problems.
> >
> >Same experience here.  Unfortunately, we have 2500 PCBs waiting for chips :-(
> >
> >And a PO'd customer to boot.

Supplies of all '87x chips seem to be just about gone.
Was searching again today, and all partminer, netbuy,
etc. could find were '877s, mostly in packages like
4MHz QFP, but a few in PDIP. Digikey had, I think, a
single 87x part left in stock at quantity around 270.
I'm thinking maybe it's time to check eBay :-)

What'd they do... bust the stepper? Or maybe the pipeline
is filled with 18xxx wafers and they just didn't stockpile
enough 16F87x parts to get past that ramp-up?

> I'm instantly bailing on them.  3-4 months is an awful damn long time for
> something that was said to be here now.
>
> I may go with H8, HC11 or the tried and true 8051 instead.

The H8 is a really cool chip; in particular the H8S/21xx
series in flash is extremely nice. 80 or 100 pins,
8xA/D, 2xD/A, 16xPWM, 4KB RAM/128KB Flash, ISP,
16xComparators, 2xI2C, 4x8-bit timers, 1x16-bit timer,
3 UARTS, 16MB linear address space, develop in GCC. Some
parts have 8-bit ISA-bus I/F and 3 PS/2 ports. However,

* Devel quantities and lead times are again an issue.
  A while back all I could find were tray quantities,
  $750 worth of parts to get anything. A week ago I
  checked with my contact at Allied (they can still
  get anything off Avnet even though they were sold
  off a while ago) and they said late December for
  some H8S/2148s.
* No parts available in anything but QFP or TQFP -- 0.65mm max pitch.
* Most of them cost $12-20 US
* Development tool support is sparse.

You probably want to stay away from the older flash parts
like the 3048, they require a special flash programming
circuit that isn't required by the newer parts.

Search Netbuy and Partminer for HD64F2 to get a sense
of availability and pricing.

> Anyone else have recommendations for 8bit MCUs with UARTS and possible AD's
> in the sub $7 range?  FLASH would be ideal.  I know the H8's are at least
> FLASH.  Don't know about the AD's

Atmel seems pretty available, but it isn't clear to me
that they've been tested under high-popularity
conditions.

It seems to me that the 8051 architecture is about the
only thing that is largely immune to this kind of problem
You can almost *always* find somebody selling 8051s --
I've got 13 8051 vendors listed on my web page, and I'm
pretty sure I've missed two or three -- and if you want a
virtually shortage-immune design, you can use an 8031
and put the flash, A/D and the SRAM out on the board
instead of relying on a particular vendor's architecture
and programming interface. Unfortunately, that'll cost
in design time & complexity, board real estate, if not
componant cost (8031s in PLCC-44s cost about $1 in small
quantities).

--Bob

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1999\09\10@065132 by bam-mon

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>
> Anyone else have recommendations for 8bit MCUs with UARTS and possible AD's
> in the sub $7 range?  FLASH would be ideal.  I know the H8's are at least
> FLASH.  Don't know about the AD's
>
> -E

Well, we changed to ATMEL long ago. They are just perfect !

Regards,
   Reelf Monsees

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1999\09\10@101344 by John Pfaff

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Having great success with A/D on the 68HC908GP20.

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Reikes <EraseMEereikesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTXSILOGY.COM>
To: PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 4:57 pm
Subject: Re: MChip F___ Up!


At 04:41 PM 9/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>3 weeks ago they tell me 2 weeks for samples.  Now they tell me 4 months.
>>Guess its time to switch architectures.  They have got some serious
>>customer relations problems.
>
>Same experience here.  Unfortunately, we have 2500 PCBs waiting for chips
:-(
>
>And a PO'd customer to boot.
>

I'm instantly bailing on them.  3-4 months is an awful damn long time for
something that was said to be here now.

I may go with H8, HC11 or the tried and true 8051 instead.

Anyone else have recommendations for 8bit MCUs with UARTS and possible AD's
in the sub $7 range?  FLASH would be ideal.  I know the H8's are at least
FLASH.  Don't know about the AD's


-E

1999\09\10@114806 by eplus1

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This seems like a good time to ask for comments on the following: This is
what I tell people when they ask about LOW COST routes to getting in to
embedded controllers:

Current lowest cost entry points:

Atmel AT89S series In Circuit Programmable 8051 clones:
http://www.atmel.com under $10.00
for uProcessor
www.ied.pios.com/catalog/pio_Catalog.asp?firstTime=true&From=IED-CATA
LOG&sNewlink=&part_number=at89s&matchtype=PN&pnmatch=any&mfg_code=%25
www.marshall.com/dynamic/search?search=AT89S&type=mpart&bl=or&result_
option=quick&mfr=ATM
, PC Parallel Port programming cable
http://www.ustr.net/files/at89s8252a.gif
, software
http://www.ustr.net/files/ispdos.zip
, and SIM
ftp://http://www.atmel.com/pub/atmel/sim51eng.zip
Many free 8051 compilers, etc. available.
(Downside: NO ICE, NO IDE, 4 uP's, single source, 2 MIPS)

MicroChip Technologies PIC:
http://www.microchip.com $50 to $100 for
any of hundreds of uControllers
www.ied.pios.com/catalog/pio_Catalog.asp?firstTime=true&From=IED-CATA
LOG&part_number=PIC&matchtype=PN&pnmatch=any&mfg_code=%27MCH%27
, and Programmers
www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lab/3544/devprogs.htm
, from many soureces w/ Free IDE
www.microchip.com/10/Tools/picmicro/devenv/mplabi/index.htm
(Downside: NO ICE, 2 to 10 MIPS)

OR

MicroChip Technologies 16F8xx PICs:
http://www.microchip.com under $200 for
uController
www.ied.pios.com/catalog/pio_Catalog.asp?firstTime=true&From=IED-CATA
LOG&mfrSubmit=True&part_number=PIC16F8&submit=+Find+&matchtype=PN&pnmatch=an
y&mfg_code=%27MCH%27&nPerPage=25
, Free IDE
www.microchip.com/10/Tools/picmicro/devenv/mplabi/index.htm
, programmer and ICE
www.microchip.com/10/Tools/picmicro/icds/MPLABICD/index.htm
www.ied.pios.com/catalog/PartDetail.asp?part_number=DV164001&mfg_code
=MCH&sSearchID=969641&firstTime=True
(Downside: 4 uP's, 2 to 10 MIPS, single source?, parts not in production as
of 1999/09/09 despite web site reference to being in-production, FAE
reported to say production pushed out to Q1 2000)


Scenix SX series ISP PIC clone:
http://www.scenix.com under $200 for
50 MIPS uController, PC Serial Port programming and ICE adapter with true
ICE (emulation circuitry built into the production chips so what the
emulator sees is what the uP saw!) and IDE
http://www.parallaxinc.com/order/order.htm
http://www.parallaxinc.com/sx/sx.htm
(Downside: a few uP's, single source)

Atmel AT90S (AVR) series RISC processors:
http://www.atmel.com about $250 for
uProcessor,
www.ied.pios.com/catalog/pio_Catalog.asp?firstTime=true&From=IED-CATA
LOG&mfrSubmit=True&part_number=AT90S&submit=+Find+&matchtype=PN&pnmatch=any&
mfg_code=%25&nPerPage=25
www.marshall.com/dynamic/search?search=AT90S&type=mpart&bl=or&result_
option=quick&mfr=ATM
, ICE
www.marshall.com/dynamic/pdpage?m=atm&p=ATICE200-
, Free IDE
ftp://http://www.atmel.com/pub/atmel/astudio.exe
(Downside: Cost, 4 to 8 MIPS, single source?)

James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
(hint: you can add your own private info to the techref)
KILLspamjamesnewtonKILLspamspamgeocities.com
1-619-652-0593 phoneÊ



{Original Message removed}

1999\09\10@120205 by Dave VanHorn

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> Atmel AT90S (AVR) series RISC processors:
> http://www.atmel.com about $250 for  uProcessor,

Where did you get THAT price??  (Or is the a game of "find the decimal
point"?)

The ICE is $200.  The development kit (demo board/programmer) is $50.
The assemblers (one from atmel, one from IAR) are free, as is the IDE, which
is also the front end for the ICE.

I'm using mine right now!

1999\09\10@120823 by eplus1

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Dave, its a list including the processor, dev kit, and ICE $200+$50=$250

James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
(hint: you can add your own private info to the techref)
RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspamgeocities.com
1-619-652-0593 phoneÊ



{Original Message removed}

1999\09\10@131144 by Dwayne Reid

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>
>Anyone else have recommendations for 8bit MCUs with UARTS and possible AD's
>in the sub $7 range?  FLASH would be ideal.  I know the H8's are at least
>FLASH.  Don't know about the AD's

Yep - look at the 'C' family of parts instead of the 'F' parts.  I use
16c73B in my current generation of oven control systems and have had NO
problems getting them.

I spent an hour on the phone yesterday with my local FAE trying to find a
currently shipping part with 10 bit or better a/d on board - the best fit
was the 16F876.  I can get sample parts right now (FAI) and but, like you,
was told that production quantities are 18 weeks away.  My client will have
to decide if that is acceptable.

I'm not stuck on flash - OTP is just fine for my stuff.  The only reason for
looking at the 16f876 was the 10 bit a/d.

Like I said, no problems getting OTP to this point in time.

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <spamBeGonedwaynerspamBeGonespamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 15 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 1999)

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1999\09\10@133018 by Erik Reikes

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At 11:10 AM 9/10/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Yep - look at the 'C' family of parts instead of the 'F' parts.  I use
>16c73B in my current generation of oven control systems and have had NO
>problems getting them.

The problem here as you note is the 8 bit AD, which isn't enough for my
application.

>
>I spent an hour on the phone yesterday with my local FAE trying to find a
>currently shipping part with 10 bit or better a/d on board - the best fit
>was the 16F876.  I can get sample parts right now (FAI) and but, like you,
>was told that production quantities are 18 weeks away.  My client will have
>to decide if that is acceptable.

I'll believe it when you have the 876 in your hand.  I ordered 873's almost
a month ago and was told that week.

Since I have too much investment in PIC's right now to switch I'll be going
with the 16c63A and implementing my AD's as V->PWM circuits.  It helps with
our isolation problems, but is durned expensive.

The atmel chips are interesting, but that would mean a new compiler and new
learning curve and I just don't currently have the time.  It also looks
like the exact part of their's that I do need isn't releases yet...

-Erik Reikes

1999\09\10@133430 by Dave VanHorn

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> The atmel chips are interesting, but that would mean a new compiler and
new
> learning curve and I just don't currently have the time.  It also looks
> like the exact part of their's that I do need isn't releases yet...

Which part?

1999\09\10@134233 by Andy Kunz

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> The problem here as you note is the 8 bit AD, which isn't enough for my
>application.

If you have time during operation, you can increase the significant bits by
multiple samples, with a known noise factor added in.  256 samples will
yield 12 bits resolution easily.

                R1
PORTx.y -----/\/\/\/\--o---Analog signal
                      |
PORTA.b ---------------o
                      |
                      -
                      -C1
                      |
                     GND

By toggling PORTx.y pin high/low every n samples (I used 16 in my project)
and selecting the right values for R1 and C1 (C1 may not be necessary), it
works.

Somebody else can explain how/why - I'm busy!  Wagner would be a good
candidate...

Andy

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1999\09\10@144521 by Erik Reikes

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At 12:31 PM 9/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> The atmel chips are interesting, but that would mean a new compiler and
>new
>> learning curve and I just don't currently have the time.  It also looks
>> like the exact part of their's that I do need isn't releases yet...
>
>Which part?

I was looking at the AT90S2333, but looking again, I see the AT90LS4433
which is interesting.  I may try them for the next project, but I think I'm
locked into PIC right now even though I'm kinda pissed at Mchip.  The cost
I'm looking at for 63A's is in the $2.50 range which is hard to beat.  The
problem is that my A->PWM circuit with isolation will cost around $4-$5 per
channel.  Its basically a couple of op-amps driving MOSFETS going to an
opto-isolator.  We are measuring current and get into ground loop problems
because of down-stream current measurers.  The circuit is supposed to be
able to act as a "line sniffer" and measure mA level currents in a wire.

-Erik Reikes

1999\09\10@155714 by Erik Reikes

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At 01:41 PM 9/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Seems like the toggle charges the cap and you are using the known decay
rate to more accurately measure the Analog signal.  Yikes... Sounds a bit
hairy to me, although a very interesting idea.  I suppose the oversampling
takes care of temp variations in the cap and resistor through averaging or
something.  Let me get a couple more cups of coffee in me and I may be able
to figure out how that works.

-E


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1999\09\10@155727 by Bob Drzyzgula

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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 10:30:46AM -0700, Erik Reikes wrote:
> At 11:10 AM 9/10/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> >Yep - look at the 'C' family of parts instead of the 'F' parts.  I use
> >16c73B in my current generation of oven control systems and have had NO
> >problems getting them.
>
>  The problem here as you note is the 8 bit AD, which isn't enough for my
> application.

What about the 16C773? That's 12-bit. Is that vapor too?

--Bob

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1999\09\10@160450 by Chris Eddy

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You unfaithful sackheads!

Just how short is your memory?  Microchip has been really good at meeting
delivery.  With the one caveat, don't expect a part until it is fully
released to the public.

The phenomena that you are seeing now is that nasty trend called allocation.
The semiconductor slump ended abruptly, and all (I said ALL!) manufacturers
are feeling a bit of pressure to meet demand.  We were warned two months ago
by Microchip that allocation times were going out, and that we should get in
the pipe, and that the trend should be short lived.

Call your frigin distributor and ask them if life is peachy right now.  One
of my distys is having some allocation with discrete semi too.  So jump
ship.. Motorola has one of the worst allocation records in the industry!
Fools!

Like f__king rats off a ship.  Makes me sick.

Chris Eddy
Pioneer Microsystems, Inc.

1999\09\10@162129 by Harrison Cooper

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Amen Chris....

its sorta industry wide right now....

Right now...I'm my Xilinx worst nightmare...when I call him, and identify
myself as "Tim's worst nightmare", they know exactly who is calling!!!

1999\09\10@162542 by Andy Kunz

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>Seems like the toggle charges the cap and you are using the known decay

You only want the R to allow a 1/2 bit change to the Analog signal.

C1 is not always needed.

Andy

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1999\09\10@162955 by William M. Smithers

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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Bob Drzyzgula wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 10:30:46AM -0700, Erik Reikes wrote:
> > At 11:10 AM 9/10/99 -0600, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Yep - look at the 'C' family of parts instead of the 'F' parts.  I use
> > >16c73B in my current generation of oven control systems and have had NO
> > >problems getting them.
> >
> >  The problem here as you note is the 8 bit AD, which isn't enough for my
> > application.
>
> What about the 16C773? That's 12-bit. Is that vapor too?
>

Or the 14C000, which is (theoretically) up to 16 bits.  Although
12 is more like it, on a good day.

-Will





{Quote hidden}

1999\09\10@172318 by Erik Reikes

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At 03:19 PM 9/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>You unfaithful sackheads!
>
>Just how short is your memory?  Microchip has been really good at meeting
>delivery.  With the one caveat, don't expect a part until it is fully
>released to the public.
>

My memory goes back to 4 weeks ago when I was promised the chips on such
and so date, and production on such and so date which turned out to be
totally false.  Its one thing to say originally : hey, it'll be 18 weeks.
Its quite another to say two, then three weeks later say 18 (for a total of
22 : 5 months).

{Quote hidden}

1999\09\10@191134 by Julian Fine

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>You unfaithful sackheads!

WELL SAID.

>
>Just how short is your memory?  Microchip has been really good at meeting
>delivery.  With the one caveat, don't expect a part until it is fully
>released to the public.


I have never had a problem all it takes is good planning, good engineering
and not running away with the the latest and greatest till they are proven.



>
>The phenomena that you are seeing now is that nasty trend called
allocation.
>The semiconductor slump ended abruptly, and all (I said ALL!) manufacturers
>are feeling a bit of pressure to meet demand.  We were warned two months
ago
>by Microchip that allocation times were going out, and that we should get
in
{Quote hidden}

Here here.

          Julian Fine   RemoveMEjulianKILLspamspamfine.co.za
Eagle Wireless Security http://www.fine.co.za
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1999\09\10@220212 by Mark Willis

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Erik Reikes wrote:
>
> At 12:31 PM 9/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Which part?
>
> I was looking at the AT90S2333, but looking again, I see the AT90LS4433
> which is interesting.  I may try them for the next project, but I think I'm
> locked into PIC right now even though I'm kinda pissed at Mchip.  The cost
> I'm looking at for 63A's is in the $2.50 range which is hard to beat.

For hobby & prototyping, Flash is "Wunnerful", even for hard-core geeks
with 3 EPRom erasers <G>  /JW parts tend to be rather pricey, compared
to Flash, as we all know.  For production, OTP is far cheaper, unless
you expect to regularly revise your code.  Wish the /JW parts were
cheaper, or there was a flash part that came in OTP versions also <G>
Learning curve can far exceed the parts costs, too, definitely - need to
consider all those factors & more (just to confuse yourself) before
making the best choice you can <G>

Using an Atmel on one project just for speed & for the flash - Wouldn't
want to pay $8 instead of $2.50 for some projects, if they ever come to
be, that's about 3/2 the profit margin per item!

 Mark

 Mark

1999\09\11@013701 by Andy Kunz

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>For hobby & prototyping, Flash is "Wunnerful", even for hard-core geeks

Wow, we haven't seen Lawrence Welk for a few years.  Big fans, me and the
wife.  Of course, SHE remembers when they weren't reruns <G>

I guess her excuse is growing up in Iowa.  Mine is we just watched it with
my parents.  My mother's a big polka fan (grew up in .de).

Andy

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1999\09\11@014527 by Matthew Fries

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Wow! I had no idea that Lawrence Welk preferred FLASH over OTP.  :)



At 01:10 AM 9/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Remove the BALONEY from my email address.
-----------------------------------------------------
Matthew Fries       Minneapolis, MN    USA
KILLspamfreezespamBeGonespambaloneyvisi.com

"Quit eating all my *STUFF*!" - The Tick

1999\09\11@110504 by Eric Oliver

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> >
> >Just how short is your memory?  Microchip has been really good at
meeting
> >delivery.  With the one caveat, don't expect a part until it is fully
> >released to the public.

While I have to agree that using the latest and greatest technology until a
product is proven is not a good idea, this has "let the buyer beware"
written all over it. Busy professionals have to be able to trust in their
vendors. A reputable vendor is expected to live up to stated
claims/promises. So many commercial software vendors have fallen into the
rut of promising more than they can deliver, delivering excessivly buggy
software late and then charging for "maintenance releases" aka bug fixes.
Are hardware vendors falling into the same rut ? where/when will it end ?

As some may know by now, I got burned more than once believing in Borland (
call me stupid). Borland a) consistently mislead/screwed their customers
and b) lacked the resources to adapt to changes in the marketplace.  It's a
downward spiral. The more customers they pissed off, the more resources
they lost leaving less to expend on future development. I watched, naively,
as developers expressed their discontent and left the Borland camp for
greener pastures. With that experience behind me, I have to ask, is
MicroChip headed down the same path ?

>From feedback on this list it would appear that MicroChip is lagging behind
and losing marketshare to other vendors more sensitive to industry wants
and needs.  I can only say that I am paying attention this time.  I will
not stick my head in the sand and follow MicroChip blindly.

Sadly, many corporations dismiss feedback such as the content of this
thread as temporary and isolated fires. The truth is that times have
changed. The members of this list are a powerful force that can and will
effect changes. Everytime a professional states he is abandoning MicroChip
for XXX they start others like me considering other options.  They lose
one, then two, then ten, then twenty.  Then new hires that are trained by
this professional are no longer exposed to PICs. They learn XXX. If a
company like MicroChip ignores this cycle, irrepreable damage can be done
before someone in upper management ever notices ( because he/she were never
exposed to feedback such as this thread they might not know or
underestimate the root cause of negative trends ). It's like a snowball
rolling downhill. Dismiss it as a 4" diameter nusiance now and someday you
may lookup and see a 20' diameter full blown nightmare bearing down on you.

With Borland, there were other financial indicators that I ignored and I
haven't taken the time to scrutinize MicroChip's financial performance, but
I will. There are key indicators that can definitively tell if MicroChip's
policies are adversly affecting the company now and in the future. Thanks
once again to the Internet, this information is freely available.

One can't make a determination about MicroChip and if they're headed in the
right direction based solely on discussions such as these, but together
with hard financial data educated people such as those on this list can
draw their own conclusions.

Eric

>
>
> I have never had a problem all it takes is good planning, good
engineering
> and not running away with the the latest and greatest till they are
proven.
>
>
>
> >
> >The phenomena that you are seeing now is that nasty trend called
> allocation.
> >The semiconductor slump ended abruptly, and all (I said ALL!)
manufacturers
> >are feeling a bit of pressure to meet demand.  We were warned two months
> ago
> >by Microchip that allocation times were going out, and that we should
get
> in
> >the pipe, and that the trend should be short lived.
> >
> >Call your frigin distributor and ask them if life is peachy right now.
One
{Quote hidden}

1999\09\11@114015 by Mark Willis

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I think the best answer I can give to this is, "Knock it off!"  Sheesh.

(Thought I'd see a discussion of technical merits, not ancient
musicians, on THIS list guys.  Ack.)

 Mark (Forget where I got the spelling from - 'twas NOT from Welk.)

Matthew Fries wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\09\11@145634 by Dwayne Reid

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>
>What about the 16C773? That's 12-bit. Is that vapor too?
>
>--Bob

Yep - not available yet.  It was actually my first choice.  Soon, the FAE says.

Andy's suggestion may be useful.  I currently do something similar on my
oven controllers, except that I take 16 samples over 33.33 mS for each
channel and discard the extra bits (I'm mostly interested in noise /
transient suppression and 60 Hz rejection).  I'll have to take a closer look
at how useful those extra bita are.

Thanks for the suggestions!

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <spamBeGonedwaynerspamKILLspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 15 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 1999)

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email.

1999\09\13@151134 by Eric Oliver

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IMHO, Borland has always produced better tools. They just have a nasty habit
of abandoning a product and leaving developers holding the bag.

>I just switched back to Borland because of problems in the MSVC compiler.
>Borland has ALWAYS had better error and warning message integration.

Andy

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1999\09\13@152005 by Andy Kunz

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At 01:07 PM 9/13/99 -0500, you wrote:
>IMHO, Borland has always produced better tools. They just have a nasty habit
>of abandoning a product and leaving developers holding the bag.

My revenge is to use Version 5 of their compiler.

Andy

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1999\09\13@160652 by Matt Bonner

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Eric Oliver wrote:
>
> IMHO, Borland has always produced better tools. They just have a nasty habit
> of abandoning a product and leaving developers holding the bag.

I've been using Borland C++ Builder to develop my desktop apps, their
documentation stinks (doesn't most?), but their forums are great on-line
help resources.

BTW, what products have they abandoned?  I'm guessing that you're
referring to their Turbo products?

--Matt

1999\09\13@161115 by Andy Kunz

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>BTW, what products have they abandoned?  I'm guessing that you're
>referring to their Turbo products?

Which happen to have been replaced by Borland products that accept the same
source code just fine...

Andy

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1999\09\13@224123 by Eric Oliver

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This is what I'm using,  BC++ 5.02 that is.  It still has a few bugs and of
course, although they say BCB is the upgrade path, it's really a different
paradigm.  I have a huge investment in OWL code and regardless of their
marketing speak, BCB doesn't like OWL that much.

{Original Message removed}

1999\09\14@003710 by Anne Ogborn

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Eric Oliver wrote:
>
> IMHO, Borland has always produced better tools. They just have a nasty habit
> of abandoning a product and leaving developers holding the bag.
>
> >I just switched back to Borland because of problems in the MSVC compiler.
> >Borland has ALWAYS had better error and warning message integration.
>
> Andy
>


Sadly, their Java development environment is an example of this -
Has lots of nifty features, but the early versions were buggy.

Sadly, the current version is still buggy.

--
Anniepoo
Need loco motors?
http://www.idiom.com/~anniepoo/depot/motors.html

1999\09\14@105004 by Matt Bonner

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Eric Oliver wrote:
>
> This is what I'm using,  BC++ 5.02 that is.  It still has a few bugs and of
> course, although they say BCB is the upgrade path, it's really a different
> paradigm.  I have a huge investment in OWL code and regardless of their
> marketing speak, BCB doesn't like OWL that much.

I recently had problems buying BCB V4 because BC++ 5.02 came bundled
with it.  Apparently the shippers were pulling Builder boxes and
removing BC++ because it's not Y2K compliant.

Unlike you, I've only recently gotten into C++ (last 2 years) - BCB is a
great way to get going quickly.

--Matt

1999\09\15@130704 by Eric Oliver

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Well,

They bought DBase and it went by the wayside. Then there's Paradox. There
are some really irritating bugs in BC++ 5.02 they they no longer support.
Refer to my other message regarding moving from BC++ to BCB. At one time
they actively marketed and sold BC++ for OS/2 for at least a year after they
had stopped development.  This by itself wasn't so bad, but feedback on CIS
from the users indicated that the product was _broken_ !! There were so many
bugs in the IDE, compiler and linker that you couldn't do serious
development with it. The bottom line is that Borland had to change direction
to survive. Unfortunately, more than a few people got burned along the way.

{Original Message removed}

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