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'MAXIM small orders system'
1999\08\19@070458 by Russell McMahon

picon face
For those who don't know :-)
Maxim have a small order system which allows you to buy direct from them
off the web.
Prices are available in 1 / 25 / 100 quantity in a 480K PDF

Prices seem dearish (ie cheaper than Farnell but still > 50% of Farnell in
most cases).
BUT if they send these as fast as they send samples then the service is
excellent (YMMV :-))

https://www.maxim-ic.com/

I don't sell Maxim parts or have any financial interest in Maxim.
I just happily use their products.


Russell McMahon

===========================

1999\08\19@081448 by Thierry Vanmarcke

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> For those who don't know :-)
> Maxim have a small order system which allows you to buy direct from them
> off the web.
> Prices are available in 1 / 25 / 100 quantity in a 480K PDF
>
> Prices seem dearish (ie cheaper than Farnell but still > 50% of Farnell in
> most cases).
> BUT if they send these as fast as they send samples then the service is
> excellent (YMMV :-))

Well, actually, if you order only 2 parts, they will sometimes send them for
free (as samples). Happened to me, I ordered 2 samples of the MAX1480 which
never arrived. After trying again without success, I ordered 2 by using their
small order service and got an e-mail from their sales department saying that
I would not be charged for it!

Long life free samples !

1999\08\19@224855 by Brian Kraut

picon face
It sure would be nice if companies like Mototola and TI would also realize that
some of the people who try to buy two or three parts today without a mimimum
order quantity are the same people who will need two or three hundred thousand i
n
the future.  But I guess that is one of the reasons why Maxim is one of the
fastest growing semiconductor companies while others are going nowhere.

Thierry Vanmarcke wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\20@092054 by ARudzki

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> It sure would be nice if companies like Mototola and TI would also realize
that
> some of the people who try to buy two or three parts today without a
mimimum
> order quantity are the same people who will need two or three hundred
thousand in
> the future.  But I guess that is one of the reasons why Maxim is one of
the
> fastest growing semiconductor companies while others are going nowhere.
>
Except that they quote like 10-12 week lead times.


tony

1999\08\20@102506 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
> > It sure would be nice if companies like Mototola and TI would also realize
> that
> > some of the people who try to buy two or three parts today without a
> mimimum
> > order quantity are the same people who will need two or three hundred
> thousand in
> > the future.  But I guess that is one of the reasons why Maxim is one of
> the
> > fastest growing semiconductor companies while others are going nowhere.
> >
> Except that they quote like 10-12 week lead times.

Maxim has a nice growing story, they started to pack interesting
functions inside DIP8 and other DIP packages, as counters, decoders and
other functions, in a way to substitute 3, 4, or more digital / analog
chips.  They grew in the market by this way, analog, power control
chips, conversion, communication, then focused heavy in miniaturization
for cellular devices with very low power and high speed (digital, analog
and RF)...

It is getting hard to find a Maxim's DIP package, almost everything is
being done in those microscopic packages. They have some very nice chips
that everyone would love to use, but it impossible to solder by hand.
Probably their big customers don't use DIP packages anymore, so why
still producing DIP?  Well, even big customers need to produce
prototypes and development units.

They diversified switching power chips by increasing features and better
specs, and the vaste different models created a problem. If you want to
produce a SPS with 5V output and 2 to 5 input, you will be crazy, there
are at least 15 different chips dedicated to this job, and probably
other dozen that can also do it, and you know that there is one that it
is better than the others for your particular application, but it is not
clear which one.

As Maxim was the first one to produce those kind of hybride chips, they
fixed a market price for it, along with the free samples and plenty of
free literature. Somebody needs to pay for it, right? What happens right
now is that other companies produce similar products, as Analog devices,
Linear Tech, and several others with very competitive prices. Take a
look for example at the RS232 interface chips, several other companies
produce it by a much better price than Maxim.  I guess Maxim can not
reduce their prices because they have a strong marketing policy and it
takes a big bite of the profit.

The traditional answer about 2-12 weeks lead time, changes everytime you
made the call, at the same day, same hour, and I guess it is not a real
production lead time, just an inventory relocation "guessing time".

When you ask for a free sample, in real it is not free, you will pay for
it (and much more) when you develop a board using Maxim's part, and then
you *will need* to produce it in hundreds or thousands using Maxim's
parts.  Their marketing strategy is correct, at least they allow
developpers to *have* parts for free, but how can you produce a
prototype using a TSSOP package with 0.5mm pitch (pin to pin distance)?

Texas Instruments use a different approach, they send those tinny chips
soldered over a small printed circuit board to allow you to do easy
wiring.

I like Maxim's vision of the future and strategies, they are always
investing and creating, for sure our electronic world would be different
without their technology push.

                        *** Long Life to the DIP ***

Wagner Lipnharski
UST Research Inc.
http://www.ustr.net

1999\08\20@111104 by Tom Handley

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At 10:23 AM 8/20/99 -0400, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>It is getting hard to find a Maxim's DIP package, almost everything is
>being done in those microscopic packages. They have some very nice chips
>that everyone would love to use, but it impossible to solder by hand.
>Probably their big customers don't use DIP packages anymore, so why
>still producing DIP?  Well, even big customers need to produce
>prototypes and development units.

  This is getting to be a big problem for prototypes... I was recently
looking to replace an LMC660 quad op-amp that buffers and filters humidity
sensors in my PIC-based weather station. The sensor output, on rare
occasions, was exceeding the common mode input of the LMC660 and TI had a
true rail to rail I/O op-amp but it's not available in a DIP package...

  I fully understand the need for smaller packages and the dwindling market
for DIPs but I would be willing to pay for DIP samples for evaluation. It's
getting to the point where you have a hard time finding even low frequency
analog chips in DIP packages... I recently requested a voltage reference
sample and I received four samples in a TSOP package even though it was
suppose to be available in a DIP...

  - Tom

>Wagner Lipnharski
>UST Research Inc.
>http://www.ustr.net


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs ;-)

1999\08\20@113143 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Tom Handley wrote:
>    I fully understand the need for smaller packages and the dwindling market
> for DIPs but I would be willing to pay for DIP samples for evaluation. It's
> getting to the point where you have a hard time finding even low frequency
> analog chips in DIP packages... I recently requested a voltage reference
> sample and I received four samples in a TSOP package even though it was
> suppose to be available in a DIP...

I believe it is time to someone crazy as us develop a DIP package
adapter socket for TSSOP's, SOIC's SOP's and other small bacterias and
microscopic animals to be able to be inserted onto a Protoboard, isn't?
I am pretty sure it would sell quite well, not in millions, but... can
you imagine to be able to use that "rail to rail TI quad amplifier" you
are looking for and insert at that old PCB DIP holes? using a cheap $1
adapter socket?  I would buy a bunch of it... :)  The only ones I ever
saw were PLCC adapters to tru hole (JDR or Jameco sell those), but it
doesn't follow DIP measurements.

Wagner.

1999\08\20@120508 by Alice Campbell

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Hi wagner,

the picture in my head is a thin pcb sized to fit inside the socket,
with square holes to fit into the socket, sized for those breakaway
square .010 header strip pins that are double-ended.  then you could
just  break off the number of leg pins you need, and solder on the
legs at the same time as you stick down the bug.
seems like a a bunch of different sizes could be laid out in rows on
an 8x10 pcb.

alice

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\20@121138 by Harrison Cooper

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found the URL for these.

http://www.arieselec.com/products/correct.htm

1999\08\21@093720 by Russell McMahon

picon face
FREE sample arrive in NZ (bottom of the world) in about a week


RM




-----Original Message-----
From: ARudzki <spam_OUTarudzkiTakeThisOuTspamSGI.NET>
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Saturday, 21 August 1999 01:21
Subject: Re: MAXIM small orders system


>> It sure would be nice if companies like Mototola and TI would also
realize
{Quote hidden}

1999\08\21@184935 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Wagner, if we could do adapters for $1 in single qty, I would sell my
house to raise startup capital ;-)

  There are adapters but they are relatively expensive considering you
still have to solder the SOIC, etc, to the adapter. Then there are `older'
guys like me who have difficulty soldering at 0.050" and below ;-)

  - Tom

At 11:30 AM 8/20/99 -0400, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>Tom Handley wrote:
>>    I fully understand the need for smaller packages and the dwindling
market
{Quote hidden}

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs ;-)

1999\08\22@173955 by paulb

flavicon
face
Tom Handley wrote:

>  Wagner, if we could do adapters for $1 in single qty, I would sell my
> house to raise startup capital ;-)

 Whilst understanding that Tom is pooh-pooing the practicality of
getting down to $1 a board, it seems to me that if it were to be
practical at all, there is *no way* you would *ever* offer them as
"single qty".

 I note the local electronics shop now sells resistors only in packs
of five, or twos for the large ones (as Tandy = Radio Shack always did).
This seems to me the only sensible approach.  I can't think of a time
when I ever needed to buy one resistor; for whatever reason I wanted the
one, it would always have been sensible to have the remainder in stock
for next time - to avoid a trip where possible.

 If you were making these adapter boards (and I think they should be
made), you would *never* want to ship less than ten to anyone.  At that
rate, they should still be cheap to do.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\08\23@062509 by steveb

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face
> FREE sample arrive in NZ (bottom of the world) in about a week

Nat semi also have a small quantity buy system. With the sample
system,  I was getting samples from the US before the local guys
had come back with a price.
"A web site just for design engineers" and "pre-production
quantities" it says in the ad.

http://buy.national.com

Steve.

======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: .....stevebKILLspamspam.....tla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

1999\08\23@064000 by Pavel Korensky

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face
At 08:09 20.8.1999 -0700, you wrote:
>   I fully understand the need for smaller packages and the dwindling market
>for DIPs but I would be willing to pay for DIP samples for evaluation. It's
>getting to the point where you have a hard time finding even low frequency
>analog chips in DIP packages... I recently requested a voltage reference
>sample and I received four samples in a TSOP package even though it was
>suppose to be available in a DIP...

The lack of DIPs is really a problem. But I can say, that it is possible
(and funny sometines) to do prototyping on SMDs. Couple of months ago, I
almost converted to SMDs and I can say that I am happy now, because I do
not need to drill holes in PCBs or buy expensive universal boards. When I
am prototyping, I firstly make a design in Eagle, that I make fast (not
optimized) PCB for SMD components. I print the PCB on laser printer, etch
it either in my company or at home (in bathroom) and I am ready to solder.
The only thing which I bought specially for it is a hot air solder/desolder
station (around 1000 USD). With the hot air, it is possible to change parts
with different values very quickly. When I need to add ICs, I simply solder
thin teflon isolated wires on SMD parts and I can than solder those wires
directly to PCB traces.
For really small parts, like uMAX and TSOP, I am using small PCB rectangles
with etched traces and I am soldering wires to the traces.

Best regards

PavelK
**************************************************************************
* Pavel KorenskyÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* DATOR3 LAN Services spol. s r.o.ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
* Styblova 13, 140 00, Prague 4, Czech Republic      ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
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* SUMMA SCIENTIA - NIHIL SCIREÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ *
**************************************************************************

1999\08\23@201410 by tekphobia

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face
This brings up an interesting question... I'm just a teen (17) hobbyist
with no big company and no desires for 1,000,000+ parts. I've ordered
numerous samples from Maxim, Nat'l Semi, and TI. I was told by someone
that I'm lying in a way because I wouldn't be purchasing mass amounts of
these parts. So I ask..is it wrong? What happens if I invent something
using one of these parts and I need more and more of 'em? Speaking of
which, I ordered a sample of TI's TLC0831 -- it's an 8-bit A/D
Converter. Well, I used that to write a magazine article (It'll be in
Nuts & Volts), so in the long run, this will boost the (depending on how
many readers there are) demand for this particular chip. Actually, Nat'l
Semi. makes the same chip -- ADC0831 which is more available.

A thought to ponder,

Tim Hamel


Steve Baldwin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\23@232009 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Tim!

I am also a teen (19) hobbyist/student. Its been a while since the subject
of age came up here,but I'd be interested to see how many of us there are
on the list.

I also use a fairly large number of free samples. I don't see how one could
label it as lying,unless the question is specifically asked "How many do
you expect to use?" and I were to reply with a very large number. In fact,
I usually inform them that I am an engineering student. I'm not sure how
much more ground that gains me versus a hobbyist.

I feel very strongly that it is beneficial to a company to send free
samples to people like us. As you say, you might come up with a product one
day that you wish to market,and you are more likely to use their parts in
it. In addition, you may decide to become an engineer,in which case your
familiarity with their products is a clear advantage to them.

Sean


At 05:12 PM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
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1999\08\23@234216 by piclist

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face
I'm glad SOMEONE agrees with me! It is good PR to give out samples, EVEN to
hobbyists. I'd say the majority of the people on this list are in the mid-20s
on up -- either way, I look up to ya guys/gals =) I do hope to have the title
"Embedded Systems Engineer" slapped on a resume some day!

Anyways, I appreciate your feedback Sean. Now I won't feel so guilty in
ordering samples =)

Tim Hamel



Sean H. Breheny wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\24@005804 by Dennis Plunkett

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At 23:17 23/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

So it you want an electric motor do you say that you're a fan manufacturer?
When you need a new motor for your car do you say that your a car designer?
When you need a new vacum do you say that you wish to tial it for your
cleaning company?
When you want chewing gum, do you say that you're a taste tester?
When you want a bottle of wine to you say that you're a wine conesire?
When you want a new house, do you say that you're homeless?
When you fail to stop at a red light and get caught by a read light
cammera, do you say that you where testing the cammera operation?

The list goes on...


Dennis

1999\08\24@005809 by Mark Willis

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face
Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
{Quote hidden}

 Maybe sell 12-packs, and allow people to "Mix and match" (or at least
to pick from several options?)  I would use more than one style of
these, most likely others would too.

 Mark

1999\08\24@014224 by Lynx {Glenn Jones}

flavicon
face
Im 16. i too use free samples and i feel as you do. I will also be an
engineering student this year, at caltech. I have already used samples
(maxim in fact) on a product that i had planned on marketing and
patenting, but then i found out that it was patented in 96 *doh* oh well,
the experience was invaluable, and i am already in love with maxims
products.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A member of the PI-100 Club:
3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751
058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679

On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Sean H. Breheny wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\08\24@014849 by Sam Laur

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face
> hobbyists. I'd say the majority of the people on this list are in the mid-20s
> on up -- either way, I look up to ya guys/gals =) I do hope to have the title
> "Embedded Systems Engineer" slapped on a resume some day!

I could describe myself as that (embedded systems engineer). And I'm 24 now.
I've been doing it for work, for over 3 years now, first just a couple "loose"
projects to show my skills, then the latest 2 years as a steady job.

In my current work, I do microcontroller software, design the hardware around
it (from proto to layout to production plan); design the enclosure, specify
and buy the parts, do the product testing after production, and finally I've
also had to make the Windows-based configuration programs. Argh... Well, the
fun part is that I get to do most of it at home. If you didn't get it by now,
my workplace only has 1 full-time employee (me) and two part-time marketroids.

About samples, I've used Maxim's system, sometimes to get actually needed new
parts, sometimes just to look at the part, test it a bit, say "oh, cool" and
put it to gather dust in a closet... sometimes even to use them in a hobby
project.

Since I'm actually doing my work, I've also gotten samples from distributors.
It's a bit harder than just clicking some buttons on a WWW form - you actually
have to talk to someone on the phone :-)

1999\08\24@093419 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Dennis Plunkett wrote:
> So it you want an electric motor do you say that you're a fan manufacturer?
> When you need a new motor for your car do you say that your a car designer?
> When you need a new vacum do you say that you wish to tial it for your
> cleaning company?
> When you want chewing gum, do you say that you're a taste tester?
> When you want a bottle of wine to you say that you're a wine conesire?
> When you want a new house, do you say that you're homeless?
> When you fail to stop at a red light and get caught by a read light
> cammera, do you say that you where testing the cammera operation?

Well Dennis, you are right, but according to the sales people point of
view (they have sales points and volume to do), they will always choose
to sell a single motor (in real they are willing to give it for free) to
a fan manufacturer instead to a hobbiest person.

There are two points of view, the first one is from the company
visionary person, the president or owner, this guy invest into the
future and he is able to sacrifice today to collect tomorrow. The second
is from the sales people, they just *don't care* about the company's
future, they can jump from one company to another as fast as you change
your underware. In most cases (if not all) they only see their bank
account numbers. This is so real, that they =need= to have sales points
to do, they would not need it if they worry about the company's future,
huh?

We need to understand the machine (in this case the distributor
companies) to deal and work with them accordingly. They are suppose to
deal with big companies and also students (hobbiests) in the same
manner, but are they? If they suppose to but they are not, should we not
act in the same way?

This is a very controversial matter, and everyone needs to find out the
best way to deal with distributors.

1999\08\24@100333 by Andy Kunz

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face
>This is a very controversial matter, and everyone needs to find out the
>best way to deal with distributors.

To quote someone famous in American history,

       Honesty is the best policy.

I deal with sales companies all the time as part of my job.  My hobbies
also generate some sales for these same folks.  When dealing with them,
most of these sales guys have been told (by me) to ask if it's for business
or for a "toy."  If it's for business, they ask volume questions.  If it
isn't, the samples (not always free) come because of the volume of other
business I do with them.

You have to build a relationship with them.  Always deal with the same
person, treat him/her well, and BE HONEST.

They won't ship samples if they figure out you're lying.  So if it's a
small run - tell them.  If it's for a toy - tell them.  Then when you tell
them you have a big order, they'll believe you and when it comes through,
everybody will be happy.

Andy

==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
RemoveMEandyTakeThisOuTspamrc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
spamBeGoneandyspamBeGonespammontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\08\24@102406 by Andrej Nemec

flavicon
face
> Dennis Plunkett wrote:
> > So it you want an electric motor do you say that you're a fan
manufacturer?
> > When you need a new motor for your car do you say that your a car
designer?
> > When you need a new vacum do you say that you wish to tial it for your
> > cleaning company?
> > When you want chewing gum, do you say that you're a taste tester?
> > When you want a bottle of wine to you say that you're a wine conesire?


> When you want a new house, do you say that you're homeless?

I am afraid this one won't work. ;-)


> > When you fail to stop at a red light and get caught by a read light
> > cammera, do you say that you where testing the cammera operation?

Cheers, Andrej

1999\08\24@111412 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Dennis,

Well, maybe I didn't make myself clear,but I AM an electrical engineering
student at Cornell University. If I were not,then I would be lying and that
would be wrong. You are right,in general,I have no reason to expect free
samples from companies. However, when we are dealing with electronic
parts,they can at least expect that in a few years, I will be in a position
to select parts for large production runs,and I will be more likely to
select parts that I am familiar with.

Sean


At 03:01 PM 8/24/99 +1000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
TakeThisOuTshb7EraseMEspamspam_OUTcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174
________________________________________________________
NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet.  Shouldn't you?
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
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1999\08\24@124708 by Nick Taylor

picon face
Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
[snip]
> There are two points of view, the first one is from the company
> visionary person, the president or owner, this guy invest into the
> future and he is able to sacrifice today to collect tomorrow. The second
> is from the sales people, they just *don't care* about the company's
> future, they can jump from one company to another as fast as you change
> your underware. In most cases (if not all) they only see their bank
> account numbers.

There are many presidents, CEOs, etc. who are _NOT_ visionary, who are
only interest in this month's or this quarter's P&L statement.

The company that allows today's poor student access to free/inexpensive
hardware and software may well be influencing tomorrow's purchasing
officer.  From a pragmatic perspective, the poor student probably
doesn't
have the means for purchasing the items any way ... especially on the
software side of the market.

I'm an old fart, and never ask for free samples, nor do I use pirated
software ... but if I were a student I most certainly would.

- Nick -

1999\08\24@125125 by William K. Borsum

flavicon
face
Boy, all you yung'ins.
Did the same when I was your age. Some 35-40 years ago.

Just one comment:  We tend to get infatuated with one or two vendors over
the years--usually the first ones we work with.  There are other, sometimes
better, often cheaper alternatives to Maxim.  Case in point is their MAX666
regulator.  Analog devices makes an equivalent for 30% less cost, and
better specs.  Also, the Telcom TC55 is incredible for new designs.

I'm not bashing Maxim--I've specified their devices in many new designs,
and they have gotten their money's worth and then some with all the free
samples over the years.  But there ARE alternatives (to microchip too, for
that matter--ahhhh blasphemy....) and it really pays to look around and
developed a strong relationship with the field app engineers with the
various distributors.

Kelly




At 10:40 PM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Im 16. i too use free samples and i feel as you do. I will also be an
>engineering student this year, at caltech. I have already used samples
>(maxim in fact) on a product that i had planned on marketing and
>patenting, but then i found out that it was patented in 96 *doh* oh well,
>the experience was invaluable, and i am already in love with maxims
>products.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
{Quote hidden}

William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<borsumEraseMEspam.....dascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>

1999\08\24@130821 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>...MAX666...
>...--ahhhh blasphemy....)

Just a coincidence these two things were together?

<G>

Andy


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1999\08\24@162259 by l.allen

picon face
> So it you want an electric motor do you say that you're a fan manufacturer?
> When you need a new motor for your car do you say that your a car designer?
> When you need a new vacum do you say that you wish to tial it for your
> cleaning company?
> When you want chewing gum, do you say that you're a taste tester?
> When you want a bottle of wine to you say that you're a wine conesire?
> When you want a new house, do you say that you're homeless?
> When you fail to stop at a red light and get caught by a read light
> cammera, do you say that you where testing the cammera operation?
>
> The list goes on...
>
>
> Dennis
>
I take it Maxim and the like aren't idiots, if there weren't gold in
dem dar hills they wouldn't be diggin.

I personally go out of my way to use "designer friendly " companies,
which are not that common especially when you tell them you work for
a Psychology Dept, but since we are going to the market( and patent
office) with several items we have developed, I guess those companies
concerned money was well spent.


_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand
_____________________________

1999\08\24@180300 by Des Bromilow

flavicon
face
This is what I do. I tell the manufacturer what I'm making and that it's a prototype to ascertain the commercial viability of producing the device. This is usually what I'm doing... I see a design, and then play with a derivative of it, which I'll plan on selling (as a product, or a kit) once i have a commercially viable version.

I don't know what the manufacturer thinks when I have to tick the "annual volumes" box at 1-999... I guess they hope for 999, whereas in reality (experience) I'd be lucky to buy ten in the first year.

Des

>>> Andy Kunz <RemoveMEsupportspam_OUTspamKILLspamMONTANADESIGN.COM> 8/24/99 11:58:55 pm >>>
>This is a very controversial matter, and everyone needs to find out the
>best way to deal with distributors.

To quote someone famous in American history,

       Honesty is the best policy.

I deal with sales companies all the time as part of my job.  My hobbies
also generate some sales for these same folks.  When dealing with them,
most of these sales guys have been told (by me) to ask if it's for business
or for a "toy."  If it's for business, they ask volume questions.  If it
isn't, the samples (not always free) come because of the volume of other
business I do with them.

You have to build a relationship with them.  Always deal with the same
person, treat him/her well, and BE HONEST.

They won't ship samples if they figure out you're lying.  So if it's a
small run - tell them.  If it's for a toy - tell them.  Then when you tell
them you have a big order, they'll believe you and when it comes through,
everybody will be happy.

Andy

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1999\08\24@183816 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 10:56 24/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi Dennis,
>
>Well, maybe I didn't make myself clear,but I AM an electrical engineering
>student at Cornell University. If I were not,then I would be lying and that
>would be wrong. You are right,in general,I have no reason to expect free
>samples from companies. However, when we are dealing with electronic
>parts,they can at least expect that in a few years, I will be in a position
>to select parts for large production runs,and I will be more likely to
>select parts that I am familiar with.
>
>Sean

Yes Sean, I DO KNOW THAT YOU are an ELECTICAL ENGINEERING STUDENT. I was
just making the point that we should not have to missinform suppliers just
to get a part, you don't tell the Milk Bar owner (Drug store?) that youre
going to die of thirst if you don't get a drink now, just to get a drink do
you?

End of toppic

Dennis


{Quote hidden}

1999\08\24@184108 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 13:06 24/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>...MAX666...
>>...--ahhhh blasphemy....)
>
>Just a coincidence these two things were together?
>
><G>
>
>Andy
>
I don't think so, have you been caught with this little device spitting out
6V too?

Dennis



>
>==================================================================
>Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
>------------------------------------------------------------------
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>==================================================================
>
>

1999\08\24@235128 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Well, maybe I didn't make myself clear,but I AM an electrical engineering
> student at Cornell University. If I were not,then I would be lying and that
> would be wrong. You are right,in general,I have no reason to expect free
> samples from companies. However, when we are dealing with electronic
> parts,they can at least expect that in a few years, I will be in a position
> to select parts for large production runs,and I will be more likely to
> select parts that I am familiar with.

Years ago I took a minivan full of students to an electronics show.
They were grabbing all the booklets, databooks and flyers they could.
I heard one vendor telling his mate in full earshot of the particular
student : "These students are like fucking vultures". They now have
more buying power and bigger budgets than he does.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt

1999\08\25@003016 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
Hi Tjaart,

I wish I could say that would be likely to happen here. I dunno,maybe I'm
not seeing the whole picture here,but I have yet to meet an EE student at
Cornell who is also a real electronics hobbyist. It seems to me that they
would only express mild interest in such materials at a trade show.

What is perhaps worse than that is the response when I told my EE advisor
that I was an electronics hobbyist and an amateur radio operator. IIRC, it
was something like "Ah, I see". In my opinion,they should welcome such
strong interest in the field with open arms.

Sean

At 06:01 AM 8/25/99 +0200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
KILLspamshb7spamBeGonespamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\08\25@004322 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
"Sean H. Breheny" wrote:
>
> Hi Tjaart,
>
> I wish I could say that would be likely to happen here. I dunno,maybe I'm
> not seeing the whole picture here,but I have yet to meet an EE student at
> Cornell who is also a real electronics hobbyist. It seems to me that they
> would only express mild interest in such materials at a trade show.
>
> What is perhaps worse than that is the response when I told my EE advisor
> that I was an electronics hobbyist and an amateur radio operator. IIRC, it
> was something like "Ah, I see". In my opinion,they should welcome such
> strong interest in the field with open arms.
>
> Sean

I am currently interviewing applicants for positions in the
development lab. I won't take anyone who doesn't have a
passion for electronics to the point of also doing it as a
hobby.

The worst engineer is the one who studied it because his/her
advisor/parents said so.

--
Friendly Regards           /"\
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|--------------------------------------------------|

1999\08\25@010812 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Tjaart van der Walt wrote:
[snip]
> I am currently interviewing applicants for positions in the
> development lab. I won't take anyone who doesn't have a
> passion for electronics to the point of also doing it as a
> hobby.
>
> The worst engineer is the one who studied it because his/her
> advisor/parents said so.

Some time ago I was selecting few people for the dev/lab too, and it was
very interesting, I "planted" several objects into the waiting room.

a) Few PC related magazines,
b) Electronic Buyer's News paper,
c) Two boards with microcontrollers
d) Bare PCB's (no components)
e) Few microcontrollers in a plastic tube
f) Some circuit diagrams
g) Some chips tech data sheet
h) The Local Newspaper
i) Time Magazine
j) Sport Magazine
k) Racing Car's Magazine

When a candidate arrived, he was asked to wait for a whole minute in
that room. The receptionist in the same room had the job to make notes
of all objects the waiting "victim" touch, open, look or read. Of course
the "victim" shouldn't notice it.

I could be wrong, but we hired two guys: The first one found the
"intentional" misplaced crystal connected to port pins instead the
oscillator pins at the Orcad diagram printout, and he *told me that*
during the enterview. The second told me that he found out about the
receptionist writing. In real he played with her, she wrote two pages in
less than a minute... :)  Those were not the only reasons why we hired
them, but coincidentaly it happened.

You can say you are a lucky person when your "paid job" is also your
hobby.

1999\08\25@011638 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
> Some time ago I was selecting few people for the dev/lab too, and it was
> very interesting, I "planted" several objects into the waiting room.
>
> a) Few PC related magazines,
> b) Electronic Buyer's News paper,
> c) Two boards with microcontrollers
> d) Bare PCB's (no components)
> e) Few microcontrollers in a plastic tube
> f) Some circuit diagrams
> g) Some chips tech data sheet
> h) The Local Newspaper
> i) Time Magazine
> j) Sport Magazine
> k) Racing Car's Magazine
>
> When a candidate arrived, he was asked to wait for a whole minute in
> that room. The receptionist in the same room had the job to make notes
> of all objects the waiting "victim" touch, open, look or read. Of course
> the "victim" shouldn't notice it.

Wagner!

You are wicked, wicked, wicked! I like it!
I'll report back....

--
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1999\08\25@021229 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 01:06 25/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Interesting to say the least, and very sneaky!
The question is what was the percentage of people whom looked at the non
technical related stuff to those that did?
In my situtation I don't think that one minute would be enough before my
inquisativness got the better of me. Also I think that I would be concerned
about a company that left it's "washing" out in a waiting room for everyone
to see. Perhaps these items placed in a more real situation would prevoke a
btter response.

Question for everyone->
Why do we think that people whom have a hobby of electronics are better?
Before you answer that contemplate this off the cuff situation:-
Do you care that your family doctor does not practice surgery as a hobby?


Dennis

1999\08\25@025905 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

> You can say you are a lucky person when your "paid job" is also your
> hobby.

Lucky me then :-)

--
Best regards

Tony

http://www.picnpoke.com
Email spamBeGonesalesspamKILLspampicnpoke.com

1999\08\25@031156 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
Tony Nixon wrote:
>
> Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>
> > You can say you are a lucky person when your "paid job" is also your
> > hobby.
>
> Lucky me then :-)

Hey Tony, are you trawling for a job then? ;)

Let's just hope Paul's hobbies are not, uhm, job related.
"Doctor Webster, it is alive!"
"Good work Igor, pass me that soldering scalpel"

--
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1999\08\25@074111 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
On Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 04:16:44PM +1000, Dennis Plunkett wrote:
>
> Interesting to say the least, and very sneaky!
> The question is what was the percentage of people whom looked at the non
> technical related stuff to those that did?
> In my situtation I don't think that one minute would be enough before my
> inquisativness got the better of me. Also I think that I would be concerned
> about a company that left it's "washing" out in a waiting room for everyone
> to see. Perhaps these items placed in a more real situation would prevoke a
> btter response.

Generally, my office is enough. I tend to use the
archeological filing system (I think about how long ago
I last saw it and I look about that far down into the
piles) and the collection of stuff at the surface usually
covers a pretty wide range.  I consider it a big plus
when applicants keep getting distracted, staring at the
various stuff, or even better commenting on the relative
merits of various parts that happen to be out.

OTOH, just yesterday I was interviewing applicants
for a procurement position, a job that requirs intense
organzational skills and attention to detail. One of the
applicants could hardly stand it and was picking things
up off the floor and moving things so they wouldn't fall
off the desk. I gave her a lot of bonus points for that...

> Question for everyone->
> Why do we think that people whom have a hobby of electronics are better?

In my case, I'm more often hiring people to do computer
support, but the preferance is the same; I always look
for the person who has set up a bedroom network with
five PCs assembled from parts gotten from yard sales and
cast-off equipment, and running as many different operating
systems. My reason is this: Such a person quite clearly has
an insatiable thirst for learning about this technology.
In a business that changes as rapidly as ours, the fact
that an applicant has learned a few things in the past is
virtually irrelevent. In my experience, only the person
who stays in a constant state of learning regarding the
technology can do really well. If an applicant tells
me that "I've been hearing about this Linux stuff for
some time, but I can't really mess with the family PC",
I take this as a strong indication that this is one of
those horses that will keep begging to go to the trough,
but every time he gets there will find some excuse not
to drink.

> Before you answer that contemplate this off the cuff situation:-
> Do you care that your family doctor does not practice surgery as a hobby?

No, but I might be impressed if he spent his free time
volunteering at clinics in lower-income neighborhoods
or, as my doctor (who has a private, general practice)
does, writing papers for and letters to medical journals,
and regularly bringing medical students into his office
to observe. I would strongly prefer someone who loves
the practice of medicine and who might reschedule a few
appointments to attend a morning seminar or maybe would
carve out time to coach his daughter's soccer team, but
would never shutter his office on Wednesday to play golf.

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
TakeThisOuTbob.....spamTakeThisOuTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

1999\08\25@101102 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>You can say you are a lucky person when your "paid job" is also your
>hobby.

When I was a "kid engineer" that was true of me, too.  I tested out of my
early college programming classes by providing the one electronics prof
(who also happened to have "programming 101") a digital simulation program
which wrote <HACK GAG> BASIC source code for a circuit described as a net list.

Now, I race model boats and build them for other racers.  I designed my own
electronics, including a data logger and telemetry system, to learn what's
going on.

But what I enjoy most are my kids.  All 7 of them.

Andy

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1999\08\25@102558 by Adam Davis

flavicon
face
I'm slightly afraid that if I pursue electronics as a career, I will no longer
enjoy it as a hobby...  I'm likewise afraid I'd get stuck doing electrical work
where there is no change.  I feel like I have to keep learning new things to
enjoy it...

-Adam

Tjaart van der Walt wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\08\25@111253 by Eric Oliver

flavicon
face
Well, I think that's quite different. First of all, you could say that a
surgeon _does_ practice as a hobby considering the vast amount of
education/training that is spent to become qualified in that profession.
Also, while certainly not all, but many doctors work long hours ( and make
good money doing it <g> ).

You also have to consider the logistics of practicing surgery as a hobby
<bg>. If you did find a surgeon practicing surgery in his basement, I
wouldn't call him dedicated but a rather sick man <g>.

All jests aside, the truth is that someone who loves what they do exudes
enthusiasm and passion when talking about it.  For instance, when someone
makes the mistake of bring up anything computer/electronic/manufacturing (
my passions), they generally can't get me to shutup <g>.

Eric

> Question for everyone->
> Why do we think that people whom have a hobby of electronics are better?
> Before you answer that contemplate this off the cuff situation:-
> Do you care that your family doctor does not practice surgery as a hobby?
>
>
> Dennis

1999\08\25@130421 by Nick Taylor

picon face
Dennis Plunkett wrote:
[snip]
> Question for everyone->
> Why do we think that people whom have a hobby of electronics are better?
> Before you answer that contemplate this off the cuff situation:-
> Do you care that your family doctor does not practice surgery as a hobby?
> Dennis

For my part, that perspective has been formed by my experiences.  Many,
many years ago when I worked in electronics the best of the best were
those who went home and experimented with the differences between xtal-
filters and phasing for SSB generation ... or messed with this new thing
called "hi-fi".  Later, as a professional pilot, the best of the best
both in the military and civilian sectors were the guys who ownded a
Pitts, Citabria, or even an old Aztec.  Now, as a parent who spends a
lot
of my free time at school with my 10 & 11 y.o. boys, I find that the
best
teachers are those who would be teaching without salary if there were no
paid teaching jobs available.

When Paul say' "Good work Igor, pass me that soldering scalpel", I hope
to be on his patient list!

- Nick -

1999\08\25@190843 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Tjaart van der Walt wrote:
>
> Hey Tony, are you trawling for a job then? ;)

I was thinking about it for a while. University life can get very slow
at times. On the other hand, I introduced the department to PICs and
have 'invented' a lot of uses for them here. Some really interesting
projects crop up from time to time, like the one I'm doing now - remote
controlling a 1600Kg 'slotcar' at up to 100Kph. I'm hoping a 16F8xx has
the grunt to do the job. (When they are available)

These are the sort of jobs that wake you up in the middle of the night
because a new idea has somehow emerged out of the back of your dozing
brain. Then it keeps you up for the rest of the night trying to figure
it out. Geat stuff :-)

> Let's just hope Paul's hobbies are not, uhm, job related.
> "Doctor Webster, it is alive!"
> "Good work Igor, pass me that soldering scalpel"

Dr Phibes, eat your heart out.

--
Best regards

Tony

http://www.picnpoke.com
Email spamBeGonesales@spam@spamspam_OUTpicnpoke.com

1999\08\25@193342 by Russell McMahon

picon face
From: Adam Davis <    >

>I'm slightly afraid that if I pursue electronics as a career, I will no
longer
>enjoy it as a hobby...  I'm likewise afraid I'd get stuck doing electrical
work
>where there is no change.  I feel like I have to keep learning new things
to
>enjoy it...


Adam,

If you enjoy electronics enough this will not be a problem.

I have heard a number of people bemoan that what was a hobby is no longer
enjoyable since it became their job - this applies in all sorts of jobs.
BUT, if you tend to eat/dream/breathe electronics or whatever then, as
someone else noted here recently, and as many very successful people have
noted, "Imagine being paid to do what I would do for free if I could." I
met one man who was fascinated by bumble-bees from his earlisest child-hood
and he now has a PhD in a bumble-bee related topic and SELLS bumble bees
for a living :-)   - way to go! "Passion" is probably the driver. "Just
sort of interested" may not be enough. Certainly, being able to direct
which things you do and not just doing the same task over and over is to me
a necessary part of the job's interest.

While I'm not sold out on electronics (hardware & software) per se as the
reason for existence I enjoy it immensely as a tool to achieve things. What
this really means is that I greatly enjoy achieving things which can be
achieved this way. An eg lawyer (shudder :-)) may say the same things about
what he/she does but neither of us would be more than passingly interested
in what the other is passionately consumed by. I am self employed with
offices and workshop behind and under my home. I find that work and play
merge into a seamless blur. The main problems are having time for other
things (family, food, sleep, ...) and having time for the electronics
related things I want to do as opposed to have to do. ie all are fun but
the priority list may sometimes be ordered by clients. Working for yourself
or as part of a small team who profit directly from the work done probably
helps the enthusiasm level.

I would have passed the "how many things did he look at in 1 minute"
pre-employment test at any stage in my career to date.




regrads


               Russell McMahon

PS - I like what you all have done with my MAXIM small order thread :-)

1999\08\25@195645 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>I have heard a number of people bemoan that what was a hobby is no longer
>enjoyable since it became their job - this applies in all sorts of jobs.

Been there.  Hopefully I get TOO successful with the race boats!

>in what the other is passionately consumed by. I am self employed with
>offices and workshop behind and under my home. I find that work and play
>merge into a seamless blur. The main problems are having time for other
>things (family, food, sleep, ...) and having time for the electronics
>related things I want to do as opposed to have to do. ie all are fun but

Been there, done that.  I'm back at a "real" job because I got stiffed by
several customers (to the tune of $65K between three of them).  My wife is
much happier now that the income is more steady (although she really
enjoyed the year I made $125K).

>I would have passed the "how many things did he look at in 1 minute"
>pre-employment test at any stage in my career to date.

"Only one minute!  Come on, Wagner, I'm not done playing yet!"

Andy

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1999\08\25@203016 by Richard Prosser

flavicon
face
Just to add another 2c worth:-

I'm also in the happy position of having my work & hobby in electronics.

The thing I notice is that professional electronics is only about 10% (at
best) actual bench design work; the rest being specification, parts lists,
circuit & layout checking, software, general paperwork and support of
earlier projects.

Therefore, if I'm working on an actual design I may do a bit less of the
electronic side at home - but catch up a bit on computer work instead. After
working on a PC all day at work (e.g. paperwork phase) I'm only too happy to
do a repair job or some hardware work at home to balance it out.

The hardest part is finding the time to try & squeeze it all in - along with
family, sport, & etc.

Richard


> {Original Message removed}

1999\08\26@021118 by Nigel Goodwin

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picon face
In message <3.0.32.19990825161642.006bb99c@huey>, Dennis Plunkett
<RemoveMEdennisEraseMEspamspam_OUTRDD.NECA.NEC.COM.AU> writes
>Question for everyone->
>Why do we think that people whom have a hobby of electronics are better?

If they are interested, they are liable to be better at their job! - we
get 'work experience' boys from the local schools and technical college
(no attractive young girls - despite asking!). One of the first
questions I ask is 'do you build things at home', the second is 'do you
know your colour code' - the third is to throw a resistor at them :-).

>Before you answer that contemplate this off the cuff situation:-
>Do you care that your family doctor does not practice surgery as a hobby?

How do you know he doesn't? :-).
--

Nigel.

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1999\08\26@021125 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <EraseME37C3FC99.8822821Dspam@spam@baladyne.com>, Adam Davis
<@spam@adavisspam_OUTspam.....BALADYNE.COM> writes
>I'm slightly afraid that if I pursue electronics as a career, I will no longer
>enjoy it as a hobby...  I'm likewise afraid I'd get stuck doing electrical work
>where there is no change.  I feel like I have to keep learning new things to
>enjoy it...

I know what you mean!, I've been a TV/VCR/Satellite/Audio service
engineer for 28 years, coming from a hobby background. Although I still
build occasional projects I don't have the enthusiasm I used to have
years ago - perhaps for this reason I've tended to head towards
computers and software (PICS?) instead?.
--

Nigel.

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       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1999\08\26@100040 by Adam Davis

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face
Uh oh, I'm partially color blind.  I can do it if I stare at it for 5-10
seconds, but an employer might not be too impressed with that...

-Adam

(I remember oh so long ago when I bought a package of resisters on tape from
RS.  I asked my sister to help me sort through them, writing the value on the
tape edge. (she didn't know the color code previously)  She still did them an
oder of magnitude faster than I...)

Nigel Goodwin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\08\26@190054 by paulb

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Getting stale, but...

Sean H. Breheny wrote:

> What is perhaps worse than that is the response when I told my EE
> advisor that I was an electronics hobbyist and an amateur radio
> operator.  IIRC, it was something like "Ah, I see".  In my
> opinion,they should welcome such strong interest in the field with
> open arms.

 According to the lexicon, I think he is what they call a "suit".

Dennis Plunkett wrote:

> In my situtation I don't think that one minute would be enough before
> my inquisitivness got the better of me.  Also I think that I would be
> concerned about a company that left it's "washing" out in a waiting
> room for everyone to see.

 Ah, but recall that he said he noted two "intelligent" responses.  One
was to go for the "tech" stuff, the *other* was to pick the "set-up".

> Before you answer that contemplate this off the cuff situation:-
> Do you care that your family doctor does not practice surgery as a
> hobby?

 There are a couple of traps in this question.  *Very* few family
doctors nowadays practice serious surgery.  Many (and it is a dying
thing as beaurocracy bites hard) do a little simple surgery at a level
which you might well call "practice" or "hobby", in working hours.
That's fine, you really *don't* need to be super-skilled to lift lumps
off people's skin like you do for the hemi-thyroidectomy I assisted
yesterday.

 If OTOH you are really talking about (specialist) surgeons, who
perform urgent procedures at all hours, then you'll be hard-stretched
*finding* one who doesn't spend a lot of time in this enterprise.  They
have pretty much integrated their work into their "hobby" time FBOW.

 One wonders as an aside, what "suits" do for a hobby.  Pull wings off
flies?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\08\26@194549 by Sean H. Breheny

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Hi Paul,

At 08:59 AM 8/27/99 +1000, you wrote:
>  According to the lexicon, I think he is what they call a "suit".
>

Well, that would be the logical conclusion if the only info you had was
what I told you. Actually, I am very puzzled by him. He DOES seem very
interested in some engineering items because he asked me if I could figure
out how to disable the mechanical door stop that he has. I figured it out
in about 20 seconds and he said "Wow,do you want a job as an assistant of
mine?"(he was actually joking,because I think he hires only grad students
with more experience in IC fabrication,etc. He specializes in
electromechanical/optical micromachines in silicon) He says that he
regularly gives people that test (a bit akin to Wagner's idea).

Perhaps he just didn't know what to say when I said I was into electronics
as a hobby? I dunno, I am puzzled by the whole lot of them,actually! Maybe
I just don't know any of them well enough.

Sean

|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
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