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'Lithium Ion Batteries.. I told Ya So Re: Personal '
2006\08\19@112859 by Russell McMahon

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> ^ Whoa ???   a handgun is not designed to be "lethal" ....that is
> entirely in the
> hands of the operator, and is somewhat determined by the ammunition
> ( blanks,
> salt, rubber, teflon, hollow-point ) and the aim of the operator
> ( head, heart, arm,
> tire, engine block, radiator, up in the air )    AGSC ^

Depends what planet you live on.
Leaving aside such issues as shooting things which aren't alive, and
loading bullets with things which they aren't especially usually
loaded with: when used against people, if the person dies it's never
an unexpected outcome. Sure, the probability of death will vary with
calibre, load, range, ballistic & mechanical characteristics etc (eg
cross cut hollow points tend to alter the probabilities nastily) , and
some calibre and load combinations are small enough that lack of death
is more probable than not.

BUT firearms carried by military personnel (not surprisingly) AND by
police forces are *designed* to kill as their primary use.
And purposefully shooting in heart, arm, leg or torso on demand is a
hollywood myth. Given a moving target most handgun users do not have
the ability to select their target area. (Young men with 2000 hours
on-type with PS, XB, etc can hit any target where-ever they want any
time they want while simultaneously eating Pizza and surfing the
net, - but they are still largely next generation's handgun owners).

Our NZ "unarmed" police, who always have a 14mm weapon in the gun safe
in the nearest patrol car, are NOT trained to shoot to wound OR to
shoot to kill. They are trained to "shoot to stop". This involves
attempting to place all shots in the central torso. {Encountering Stop
signs consequently makes me more nervous than it used to be}. Head
shots and limb shots both have their problems in real world fracas.
Bystander collateral damage and a tendency to not notice limb shots
when powered by horse tranquilisers or methamphetamines makes torso
shots the gold standard. NZ Police weapons AFAIK are set to 'double
tap' (pleasant euphemism) automatically and while shootings by police
are, so far, far less frequent than in more civilised countries, when
they do occur is not uncommon for people to find 4 or 6 bullets in
them from a single firing event by a single police officer. A majority
still seem to manage not to die, but any suggestion that the weapon is
not designed to be lethal is laughable. As long ago as 'way back then'
(about 1930 AFAIR) US research was carried out with animal carcases to
determine how much "stopping power" was required from a police handgun
and the magnum concept grew out of the perceived level of firepower.

>>> A Tazer is "less lethal" (than eg a Magnum 38), not non-lethal.

> A tazer is designed to be basically non-lethal, unlike any handgun.
> It's not always non-lethal, or even as non-lethal as it's supposed
> to be, but it's more along the lines of fists; lethal occasions are
> unexpected accidents...

That's akin to saying that baseball bats used as weapons are designed
to be non lethal. I imagine that it's true enough. But 'death by
baseball bat attack' would surprise no-one.  A Taser (tm) (not Tazer)
is not "basically non lethal". It has a far lower probability of death
in use than a typical law enforcement handgun BUT if anyone dies when
one is used it does not surprise anyone who has any experience in the
field or break any laws of physics or (probably) cause the user any
great legal problems. Hundreds of fatalities have been caused by
Tasers to date. [[Some vigorously claim this is untrue. Most of these
are probably holocaust deniers who used to be cigarette company
executives and who haven't stopped beating (or Tasering (tm)) their
wives yet]]. FWIW (and WIW will vary with the perceptions of the
reader), here's Amnesty Internationals thoughts on the subject.

       http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511392004


Distributed capacitor passive shock systems will probably fall in the
same general category fwiw.



       Russell


2006\08\19@173042 by Peter Todd

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On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 03:19:44AM +1200, Russell McMahon wrote:
> That's akin to saying that baseball bats used as weapons are designed
> to be non lethal. I imagine that it's true enough. But 'death by
> baseball bat attack' would surprise no-one.  A Taser (tm) (not Tazer)
> is not "basically non lethal". It has a far lower probability of death
> in use than a typical law enforcement handgun BUT if anyone dies when
> one is used it does not surprise anyone who has any experience in the
> field or break any laws of physics or (probably) cause the user any
> great legal problems. Hundreds of fatalities have been caused by
> Tasers to date. [[Some vigorously claim this is untrue. Most of these
> are probably holocaust deniers who used to be cigarette company
> executives and who haven't stopped beating (or Tasering (tm)) their
> wives yet]]. FWIW (and WIW will vary with the perceptions of the
> reader), here's Amnesty Internationals thoughts on the subject.
>
>         http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511392004

I used to live next to a police officer who said they were explicitly
told in their training that all use of force was potentially lethal,
handguns were called lethal force, and stun guns, rubber bullets, even
baton blows to the head were all known as less lethal force. All these
"less lethal" alternatives were to be used only in situations when use
of a gun was otherwise justified.

Obviously you can see that training and actual practice are two very
different things. I've seen news reports of many known to be unarmed,
often even non-violent, suspects having stun guns used against them.
Taser International calls their weapons non-lethal. But read the actual
definition, and it's easy to see it's defined as weapons explicitly
designed to *minimize* fatalities...

If they built my rock-climbing equipment under that legalize I'd stay home!

--
http://www.petertodd.ca

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