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'Internet Toaster [OT]'
2000\02\11@153159 by Robert Rolf

picon face
Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> Well, my personal hell has finally arrived, they want me to design an
> internet enabled toaster... almost.
>
> I'm asked to incorporate some kind of module that communicates with an
> external time standard (WWV, GPS, atomic time, whatever) that programs the
> clock on appliances  (coffeemakers especially.)  You plug it in, it knows
> what time it is.  Simple.
>
> Not for me.  Anybody heard of these little modules?
> -- Lawrence Lile

Yeah. GPS time/frequency references. Lots of sources.
Costs 10 times what a coffemaker would.

WWVB receivers used to be sold by Radio Shaft. WWVB doesn't
work well in areas of high electrical noise.

You could go with one of the new TCP/IP appliance modules
and have to have a live internet link so that a network
time server could be queried.

The is also broadcast time (PBS VBI) that some of the new VCR's
use. Problem is that it can get the wrong time if you're bringing
the signal in from far away (cable TV).

AFAIK there is nothing cheap enough YET to do what you want.
Bluetooth and a base station broadcasting 'house' time would
probably work though.

To be workable and really cheap you'd need the power company to
broadcast timecode ON the power line so that some really inexpensive
RF receiver could decode it. The real trick with that is getting
the signal past all the transformers in your path from the
power plant. It would be one way to get all those VCR's to stop
flashing "12:00".

OTOH if the user hasn't the skill to set the clock on the
coffemaker how will they set the brew time?

2000\02\11@154012 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
How about an X10-like device per-household that broadcasts the time on the
powerlines periodically.  Then assorted devices could incorporate an X10
receiver (cheap) and pick it up...

BillW

2000\02\11@160054 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:32:14 -0700 Robert Rolf <spam_OUTRobert.RolfTakeThisOuTspamUALBERTA.CA>
writes:
>
>
> OTOH if the user hasn't the skill to set the clock on the
> coffemaker how will they set the brew time?

       How about something like the household set-back thermostats that learn
your behavior. It wouldn't really need to know the actual time, just set
up an arbitrary clock/calendar and remember when they make coffee. Have
the thing do the same thing next week. If they don't put any water in it,
don't do anything.
       A real simple solution to the need to set clocks is to put in a battery
or capacitor backup. When the AC line is present, it uses the AC line as
a timebase and develops a correction factor for its internal timebase. If
the clock has an LCD display, it could always be enabled. If it's LED,
only enable it when AC is present. This way the user still has to set the
time, but only once.

Harold


FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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2000\02\11@161540 by Quitt, Walter

flavicon
face
Since you are a BIG company you could let a
device dial an 800 number for the time.
Low speed modems don't cost too much.
In OEM quantity, I think it could all
cost around $10 or less to do.
But I don't know your cost bogie.

-W

{Original Message removed}

2000\02\11@163425 by Thomas McGahee

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face
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Rolf <.....Robert.RolfKILLspamspam@spam@UALBERTA.CA>
To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: Internet Toaster [OT]

BIG SNIP

{Quote hidden}

Simple. It's a Web-Based Toaster, so use your browser!
It must be both Internet Explorer and Netscape Navigator compliant,
of course.

Fr. Tom McGahee

2000\02\13@231722 by Russell McMahon

picon face
The post below gives me an originalish idea.
What you are really trying to achieve is a completely accurate timebase /
clock over  along period.

I understand that power companies measure total cycles sent in a day and
make up the time so that long term there are on average 50 (r 60) cycles per
second. I imagine that any making up of time is achieved gradually but
chances are any change in the rate of change occurs after the ?daily
measurement. IF this is still how they do it (rather than just locking the
system to a high accuracy standard) and IF the time at which changes are
made is constant or nearly so, you may be able to use this to confirm the
absolute tome of day. Probably too many IFs but ...

Obviously, once you are attached to a powered on mains circuit, your time
keeping problems are over. You may be able to calibrate your local
oscillator long term against the mains so that you can allow for errors
during periods of mains outage.



     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

>From other worlds - http://www.easttimor.com
                               http://www.sudan.com

What can one man* do?
Help the hungry at no cost to yourself!
at  http://www.thehungersite.com/

(* - or woman, child or internet enabled intelligent entity :-))


{Original Message removed}

2000\02\13@233833 by Robert A. LaBudde

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<x-flowed>At 03:04 PM 2/14/00 +1300, Russell wrote:
>The post below gives me an originalish idea.
>What you are really trying to achieve is a completely accurate timebase /
>clock over  along period.
>
>I understand that power companies measure total cycles sent in a day and
>make up the time so that long term there are on average 50 (r 60) cycles per
>second. I imagine that any making up of time is achieved gradually but
>chances are any change in the rate of change occurs after the ?daily
>measurement. IF this is still how they do it (rather than just locking the
>system to a high accuracy standard) and IF the time at which changes are
>made is constant or nearly so, you may be able to use this to confirm the
>absolute tome of day. Probably too many IFs but ...
>
>Obviously, once you are attached to a powered on mains circuit, your time
>keeping problems are over. You may be able to calibrate your local
>oscillator long term against the mains so that you can allow for errors
>during periods of mains outage.

This is the standard method used in AC-powered electric clocks. The power
companies will regulate the oscillator to make up time for short outages,
so AC-powered clocks (synchronous motors) are always reasonably accurate.

This method (catch up on cycles) is not used once a significant (> 5 min?)
outage occurs, so the clocks would need to be reset after that occurred.

So your idea would suffer from the same defect: your clock will have to be
eventually reset after a significant outage.

As long as you would need a reset function, you might as well just stick
with a crystal oscillator.

Alternatively, you could use RF or internet access to get to the Ft.
Collins broadcast or the Naval Observatory website or proxies.

================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: EraseMEralspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTlcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.                   URL: http://lcfltd.com/
824 Timberlake Drive                            Tel: 757-467-0954
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239                   Fax: 757-467-2947

"Vere scire est per causae scire"
================================================================

</x-flowed>

2000\02\15@020048 by Ken Webster

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face
Carl Moser wrote:
>Continuing this dialog, this brings up an interesting question.  I hear a
>lot about "Internet-enabled" appliances in the home.  Wonder how
visionaries
>of the future think these devices will connect to the Interent -- AC power,
>wireless, another wire connection?

I've seen some articles suggesting that CEBus (or similar low-cost
protocols) be used over the AC power lines for an appliance LAN within a
home and a single gateway be used to connect the CEBus to an Ethernet LAN, a
PC, or a dedicated central controller.  Internet connectivity could be
provided via DSL, cable modem, etc., if desired.

I think I remember running across some article(s) which used the term
"Internet-enabled" to refer to devices that can simply be accessed via a web
browser (and aren't necessarily connected to the Internet at all).  The gist
of the article was that using a web browser interface would allow an
elaborate yet user-friendly control panel to be provided in a standardized
manner without the expense of adding physical displays and controls to the
appliance itself.  A small hand-held device with an LCD screen and an IR
interface (or perhaps an RF interface like Bluetooth) could then be used as
a universal remote control and display panel for all appliances or devices
capable of speaking the chosen protocols.

The option of connecting through the Internet and controlling things from
your browser at work would be kinda cool though (drop a few ice cubes on the
floor to keep the dog entertained ... play with the lights and doorbell to
keep yourself entertained and drive the dog crazy ... hack into your
neighbor's system to keep yourself entertained and drive them crazy :o)
Hmm... come to think of it, there aren't many reasons I would actually want
to have any of my appliances connected to the Internet.

So why would Internet connectivity be a good thing for appliances?  LAN
connectivity would definitely be cool (to monitor power useage, subsystem
health, etc., with a PC) ... but Internet connectivity?

Anyway, here are some links:

CEBus:
http://www.cebus.org/

Article about appliance networks:
http://www.microchip.com/internet/apmag699.pdf

Bluetooth:
http://www.bluetooth.com/default.asp

Lots more links:
http://ken.webster.org/links/misc.html
scroll down to the "Electronics, embedded control" section ... most of the
home automation links are near the top.  Sorry its so messy -- I've been
adding lots of links lately but haven't had time to organize them yet.

Ken

2000\02\15@045148 by D Lloyd

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face
Yeah, but just think.......you interrogate your fridge to tell you whether the
light inside went off or not.

*That* is technology !

Dan

2000\02\15@071525 by andy howard

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face
> >What, you mean someone hacking into my fridge, and turning on the ice
> maker?

> No, hackers don't work like that usually.
> .
> They'd turn OFF the freezer :-).

I think setting the icemake to produce continuously would be just as
evil. I wouldn't want to return from vacation to find the house full to
the rafters with ice...

I wouldn't want the electricity bill either.

















.

2000\02\15@090418 by ser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)

picon face
       You state:

       "So why would Internet connectivity be a good thing for appliances?
LAN
> connectivity would definitely be cool (to monitor power useage, subsystem
> health, etc., with a PC) ... but Internet connectivity?"
>
       ...haven't you seen the commercials on TV that show an appliance
repairman showing up at the front door and the wife says she nor her husband
called the repairman but the appliance made the service call :-)

2000\02\15@093401 by ser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)

picon face
> So why would Internet connectivity be a good thing for appliances?  ....
> how about having the appliance being able to obtain the latest firmware
> automatically.
>
       OR, clocks automatically synced to a time standard -- in the future
we will tell our grandchildren, "Old grandpa actually had to set clocks from
time to time, he actually had to reset the time back and forth manually for
daylight savings time - really primitive times back then, kid".

       We could have real energy savings if our Thermostats were accurately
time synced instead of using mechanical ones that vary and do not
automatically adjust seasonally or for daylight savings time.

       Hey, I would PAY for an Internet connected "House Voice" that would
upon open door event state "Goodday Master, Time is ...., You have xx email,
xx voice mail, all appliances functioning properly" etc.  No real
productivity saver but a neat gadget.  BTW, what would you call this
appliance -- it would be a brand new product in a brand new market -- its
the future.

2000\02\15@093532 by paulb

flavicon
face
Dale Botkin wrote:

> Ip masquerading is a wonderful thing.  One box talks to the cable
> modem and runs SMTP, POP3, Apache, DNS (three domains), firewall and
> ip masq, etc. as well as backing up the <ick> NT box.  As many
> machines as I need at any given moment behind that...  one IP address.

 There seem to be a few problems with this.  If you only have one IP
address, then what happens if you want to use the same service from two
local IPs within the LAN?

 As I understand it, the port numbers seen outside the LAN are
different for the two, but some services can't cope as well with seeing
a different port number to the standard.

Ken Webster wrote:

> The gist of the article was that using a web browser interface would
> allow an elaborate yet user-friendly control panel to be provided in a
> standardized manner without the expense of adding physical displays
> and controls to the appliance itself.

 A very obvious example of this would be the D-Link which is of course,
an embedded gateway unit from Ethernet to PPP line.  Just a plastic
case, 4 LEDs, RJ-45 and 2 serial ports.

Randy Glenn wrote:

> Most of them, from what I know, connect through your Ethernet card -
> but there are soooo many variations.  Some require an Ethernet card
> for the cable, and a modem to connect to the phone line (you send data
> over the phone line, and receive over the cable - a really stupid
> system, if you ask me).

 Which is so odd?  Requiring Ethernet to interface at the high data
rate, or requiring a modem to be separately connected to the PC, or
the fact that you need the phone line as well?

 Regarding the latter, I had the anticipated house call from the Austar
spruiker only last weekend.  I told him I didn't need more TV garbage to
watch but rather used the Net.  He said they would be offering Internet
later this year but is only the sales guy and they hadn't told *him*
costings yet, so I said come back with the costings when.

 He did know you'd have to use phone line for the uplink so you get the
speed, but still pay for phone calls.  :(  It's obvious satellite has
no uplink, but it's a pretty big ask for cable too and AFAIK, not
readily available in this country.

 If the cable modem functions as the phone interface as well, and links
via one ethernet port, then this should be shareable over a LAN without
Wingate or Linux.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

2000\02\15@095903 by John C. Frenzel

picon face
> Dale Botkin wrote:
>
> > Ip masquerading is a wonderful thing.  One box talks to the cable
> > modem and runs SMTP, POP3, Apache, DNS (three domains), firewall and
> > ip masq, etc. as well as backing up the <ick> NT box.  As many
> > machines as I need at any given moment behind that...  one IP address.
>
>   There seem to be a few problems with this.  If you only have one IP
> address, then what happens if you want to use the same service from two
> local IPs within the LAN?
>
>   As I understand it, the port numbers seen outside the LAN are
> different for the two, but some services can't cope as well with seeing
> a different port number to the standard.
>
The well known port numbers are only used by the "calling" machine to
initiate the connection.  The other machine generates a dynamically
generated port number.  This combination of ip/portnumber uniquely
identifies each connection.  Every new connection generates a new pair.  So
multiple connections to the same service work easily.   BTW I just put in an
ADSL connection to my home LAN.  It uses IP Masq and works well.   My router
runs the linux router project software ( http://www.linuxrouter.org ) as a
firewall.  A test web page is at my IP address 208.11.120.246 .  I got a
choice of ISP's at the other end and I picked http://www.mylinuxisp.com of course!
John



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

2000\02\15@100320 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
"Moser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)" wrote:
>         Hey, I would PAY for an Internet connected "House Voice" that would
> upon open door event state "Goodday Master, Time is ...., You have xx email,
> xx voice mail, all appliances functioning properly" etc.  No real
> productivity saver but a neat gadget.  BTW, what would you call this
> appliance -- it would be a brand new product in a brand new market -- its
> the future.

That's what I'm working on.  Do you mind wearing an RFID on your wristwatch?
(it's the most convenient place I could find to place one, short of putting one
on each piece of clothing I'm likely to wear...)

You can walk in your house, the house would detect who you are and welcome you
with whatever info you want to be welcomed with.  It would start music according
to your settings.  As you moved around the house it would turn lights on and off
intelligently, and the music would fade in and out as you passed from room to
room following you.

I'm holding off on voice control for the moment, although it is very accurate
when you have only a subset of valid words and sequences.  (ie, give the
'system' a unique name which would not be used except when addressing the
system.  Use a limited command set, etc...)

Unfortunately, my only limitation is time...

-Adam

2000\02\15@101116 by Hickman, Drew

flavicon
face
-=Dru
I.S./Network Engineer - SLSMHS
Visit my web page at http://www.geocities.com/drewhickman


> {Original Message removed}

2000\02\15@101319 by Hickman, Drew

flavicon
face
ignore that last blank message.

i've been thinking about doing this, too, using x10 stuff.  is that the
route you are taking?  was thinking about tying the transmitter on the wrist
to a receiver that would then talk serially to the "master" pc.  using MS
agent software voice recognition is pretty good and free.

-=Dru
I.S./Network Engineer - SLSMHS
Visit my web page at http://www.geocities.com/drewhickman


> {Original Message removed}

2000\02\15@102617 by paulb

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face
M. Adam Davis wrote:

> That's what I'm working on.  Do you mind wearing an RFID on your
> wristwatch?  (it's the most convenient place I could find to place
> one, short of putting one on each piece of clothing I'm likely to
> wear...)

 They keep coming up on TV with some guy or other who has one
*implanted* somewhere.

John C. Frenzel wrote:

> The well known port numbers are only used by the "calling" machine to
> initiate the connection.  The other machine generates a dynamically
> generated port number.  This combination of ip/portnumber uniquely
> identifies each connection.  Every new connection generates a new
> pair.  So multiple connections to the same service work easily.

 That much I follow.  Also noted Drew Hickman's (private) comments
regarding "sessions" in this respect.

 Where it falls apart is on those protocols where incoming sessions
must be created.  Running XWin to an X-server is such an instance.
Speak Freely seems to have trouble too with my ISPs present masquerading
and with a second level from a LRP box or D-link, none of the ICQ direct
connections function either.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

2000\02\15@103153 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
> "So why would Internet connectivity be a good thing for appliances?

100 years ago this same question would be:
"So why would a flying vehicle be a good thing for the man?"

150 years ago this same question would be:
"So why would electricity be a good thing for us?"

2000\02\15@104034 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
"Moser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)" wrote:
>We could have real energy savings if our Thermostats were accurately
>time synced instead of using mechanical ones that vary and do not
>automatically adjust seasonally or for daylight savings time.

Why in the heck a thermostat should know the time or daylight savings,
if that stuppid thing works only with temperature?  When it is cold
inside my house I want that mechanical switch to turn on the heater,
independently of time and season.  Of course it would make sense to a
comercial site when after some time nobody would be there anymore, just
empty space.

2000\02\15@105445 by Alan Pearce

face picon face
>        We could have real energy savings if our Thermostats were accurately
>time synced instead of using mechanical ones that vary and do not
>automatically adjust seasonally or for daylight savings time.

I can just see the national Power grid sag as all the appliances switch on at
the cheap tariff rate.

2000\02\15@110057 by ser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)

picon face
       Simply for thermostat setbacks when you are away at work -- energy
savings technique.

> Why in the heck a thermostat should know the time or daylight savings,
> if that stuppid thing works only with temperature?  When it is cold
> inside my house I want that mechanical switch to turn on the heater,
> independently of time and season.  Of course it would make sense to a
> comercial site when after some time nobody would be there anymore, just
> empty space.
>

2000\02\15@110309 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Turn down the temp at night when we (the wife and I not you and I, Wagner)
are snuggled up under the covers and turn it up again half hour before we
get up.

---
James Newton jamesnewtonspamspam_OUTgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)


{Original Message removed}

2000\02\15@110718 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Well, actually we have here in Florida a power savings system that (if
you sign it) can turn off your air conditioning and water boiling in
high demand summer time, for few minutes during the peak time. They give
you discounts for accepting this system.  It is controlled by signals
travelling the power grid... <g>.

Alan Pearce wrote:
>
> >        We could have real energy savings if our Thermostats were accurately
> >time synced instead of using mechanical ones that vary and do not
> >automatically adjust seasonally or for daylight savings time.
>
> I can just see the national Power grid sag as all the appliances switch on at
> the cheap tariff rate.

2000\02\15@112138 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
I got it now, you guys up there need to use the heater during the day
too... hehe, not here in Florida, it turns on only from 10pm to 6am from
Dec25 up to Jan 28 to keep home at 77¡F...  Move down to FL, warm
weather, low taxes, Disney, beaches, aligators, snakes, very low crime
rate, laser technology US capital, and more... <g>.

Then, I realize that if you sleep one more hour a day you would save
$8/month in energy, huh?  two hours = $16... <g>... all day long =
$100/month... If you sleep all year long, you would save $1200!!!  :)

James Newton wrote:
>
> Turn down the temp at night when we (the wife and I not you and I, Wagner)
> are snuggled up under the covers and turn it up again half hour before we
> get up.

2000\02\15@113350 by Cherry, Neil J, SOCOO

picon face
>        Hey, I would PAY for an Internet connected "House Voice" that would
>apon open door event state "Goodday Master, Time is ...., You have xx
email,
>xx voice mail, all appliances functioning properly" etc.  No real
>productivity saver but a neat gadget.  BTW, what would you call this
>appliance -- it would be a brand new product in a brand new market -- its
>the future.

Check out Mr.House (http://members.home.net/winters/house/). It's Perl based
runs on several different OS's and uses a variety of different devices to
control and monitor different aspects of your home.

2000\02\15@113810 by Jim Hartmann

flavicon
face
Don't forget palmetto bugs and lightning...
Re: Snakes, one evening I was going to my car and saw what I thought was a
big stick lying behind it.  Upon closer examination I discovered it was a
giant snake.  Turned out to be an escaped pet rock python, NOT a native
species.






Wagner Lipnharski <@spam@wagnerlKILLspamspamEARTHLINK.NET>KILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> on 02/15/2000
10:17:29 AM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list
     <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>

Sent by:  pic microcontroller discussion list <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>


To:   spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
Subject:  Re: Internet Toaster [OT]


I got it now, you guys up there need to use the heater during the day
too... hehe, not here in Florida, it turns on only from 10pm to 6am from
Dec25 up to Jan 28 to keep home at 77¡F...  Move down to FL, warm
weather, low taxes, Disney, beaches, aligators, snakes, very low crime
rate, laser technology US capital, and more... <g>.

Then, I realize that if you sleep one more hour a day you would save
$8/month in energy, huh?  two hours = $16... <g>... all day long =
$100/month... If you sleep all year long, you would save $1200!!!  :)

James Newton wrote:
>
> Turn down the temp at night when we (the wife and I not you and I,
Wagner)
> are snuggled up under the covers and turn it up again half hour before we
> get up.


2000\02\15@145539 by l.allen

picon face
>         You state:
>
>         "So why would Internet connectivity be a good thing for appliances?
> LAN
> > connectivity would definitely be cool (to monitor power useage, subsystem
> > health, etc., with a PC) ... but Internet connectivity?"
> >
>         ...haven't you seen the commercials on TV that show an appliance
> repairman showing up at the front door and the wife says she nor her husband
> called the repairman but the appliance made the service call :-)

If you think the IT money makers like Bill Gates and co have you
by the short and curlys... you ain't seen nothing until they have
control over your fridge...
Upgrade or starve to death.
They could put a card reader on the fridge door, swipe it to open up.

I have never much held to conspiracy theorists... but this could be
bad connecting household appliances to the web, initially it would
be just for monitoring from remote locations but how long before
you have to pay some IT provider to keep it going.

You may be unaware of this in the states.. but in New Zealand
there is absolutely no free web access at any level. Both access in
and out is charged to the IP provider by the backbone owners.

.. thats 2 rants in one morning.
_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

_____________________________

2000\02\15@151408 by Don Hyde

flavicon
face
You forgot the flying roaches the size of a Cessna 172.

{Quote hidden}

2000\02\15@170049 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:26:39 -0500 Wagner Lipnharski
<wagnerlEraseMEspam.....EARTHLINK.NET> writes:
> > "So why would Internet connectivity be a good thing for appliances?
>
> 100 years ago this same question would be:
> "So why would a flying vehicle be a good thing for the man?"
>
> 150 years ago this same question would be:
> "So why would electricity be a good thing for us?"

       Or, I've heard rumor that upon news of the telephone reaching England,
one response was "That may be fine for America, but here we have plenty
of messengers."
       Still, we must be careful to not create solutions in search of problems.

Harold




FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/tagj.

2000\02\15@172512 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
>         Still, we must be careful to not create solutions in search of
problems.


What was the name for that "technology" that was going to integrate my
entertainment center with my PC?

OTOH, the LASER was a "solution in search of a problem" about 30 years ago.

2000\02\15@193050 by Reginald Neale

flavicon
face
<x-flowed>> >         Still, we must be careful to not create solutions in search of
>problems.
>
>
>What was the name for that "technology" that was going to integrate my
>entertainment center with my PC?
>

  Wasn't it the LONWORKS chip that was going to take over
  the world?

  ECHELON and MOTOROLA were going to make them so cheap
  they could be used in toasters. And they would handle
  any kind of interface, IR, RF, CAN, TT, cuneiform, etc. ;-)

  Reg

</x-flowed>

2000\02\15@200846 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
>    Wasn't it the LONWORKS chip that was going to take over
>    the world?
>
>    ECHELON and MOTOROLA were going to make them so cheap
>    they could be used in toasters. And they would handle
>    any kind of interface, IR, RF, CAN, TT, cuneiform, etc. ;-)

I sorta remember those. IIRC, the development kit was $7000 or so.

2000\02\15@204213 by l.allen

picon face
> >    Wasn't it the LONWORKS chip that was going to take over
> >    the world?
> >
> >    ECHELON and MOTOROLA were going to make them so cheap
> >    they could be used in toasters. And they would handle
> >    any kind of interface, IR, RF, CAN, TT, cuneiform, etc. ;-)
>
> I sorta remember those. IIRC, the development kit was $7000 or so.

It was more like US$30K for the full package and it costs
thousands everytime there is a firmware upgrade. There were quite
a number of upgrades too.
It reminds me of Apple Macs... they had their chance to bury the
opposition if they had lowered their prices but chose to add a
premium price due to its superior performance... alas the industry
moved on.


_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

_____________________________

2000\02\15@211828 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Actually, I think that the question of why internet connectivity would be
good for appliances is a very valid one.

I am not trying to say that we should try to stop its development, not am I
trying to say that no good applications for it will be found. However, I
have seen some IMO silly applications of it being publicized in ads lately.

For example, one company is advertising that soon refrigerators will
automatically call for repairs. Well, what if I don't WANT my refrigerator
to be repaired now, even if it IS broken (perhaps I have more than one, OR
it only broke in a small way such as the light not working or ice dispencer
being broken, etc.). Also, how could the fridge possibly know my schedule
of when I could be home to allow the repair person into my house? Why is it
such a hardship for the fridge just to have a warning light and for me to
make the call?

Sean


At 01:39 PM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

England,
>one response was "That may be fine for America, but here we have plenty
>of messengers."
>        Still, we must be careful to not create solutions in search of
problems.
>
>Harold

|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
RemoveMEshb7EraseMEspamEraseMEcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

2000\02\15@213829 by RMS

flavicon
face
> For example, one company is advertising that soon refrigerators will
> automatically call for repairs. Well, what if I don't WANT my refrigerator
> to be repaired now, even if it IS broken (perhaps I have more than one, OR
> it only broke in a small way such as the light not working or ice
dispencer
> being broken, etc.). Also, how could the fridge possibly know my schedule
> of when I could be home to allow the repair person into my house? Why is
it
> such a hardship for the fridge just to have a warning light and for me to
> make the call?

What would be good is if the fridge alerted _you_ to the problem. If you are
away for several days you might see that its not working and be able to get
it repaired before all the beer got warm and cold pizza went yuck.

2000\02\15@214710 by Arvid Jedlicka

flavicon
face
"Sean Breheny" suggested, along with many other good points

snip...

Why is it such a hardship for the fridge just to have a warning light and
for me to
make the call?

snip...

Probably for the same reason there are millions of homes with VCR's blinking
"12:00" - nobody remembers where the instructions are that tell them what
to do when the light comes on ;-}

Maybe the light should flash '1-800-FIX-ME-NOW' and they would remember.

Arvid

p.s. I won't even ask if the light goes off when the door is closed.

2000\02\15@223704 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Yes, that makes sense. However, in the ad, they show a repairman just
showing up at the door, unannounced, stating that their fridge sent him.
The homeowners aren't even aware that it is broken. I realize that some of
this is for dramatic effect, but the idea of it alerting you and the idea
of alerting the company are two totally different ideas.

Also, I'm not sure how much value it would be to know that your fridge just
failed while you are 1000 miles away. Who is going to let the repairman in
to fix it? I suppose you could call a neighbor whom you had previously
entrusted with a key, but this is getting a bit far-fetched!

Sean

At 03:27 PM 2/16/00 +1300, you wrote:
>> such a hardship for the fridge just to have a warning light and for me to
>> make the call?
>
>What would be good is if the fridge alerted _you_ to the problem. If you are
>away for several days you might see that its not working and be able to get
>it repaired before all the beer got warm and cold pizza went yuck.
>
|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
RemoveMEshb7spam_OUTspamKILLspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

2000\02\15@225404 by Andrew Hooper

flavicon
face
Then again, the repair man could use the system to test the fridge and see
what the fault is, for example you lodge a call stating that the fridge is
broken, he asks what's wrong with it, "you say" its not working :)...

He then interrogates the fridge to find that the condenser is faulty and
knows exactly what part to bring with him to repair the unit onsite.

Same goes for the stove, It will tell him if the reason the element is not
going is the switch, the element or the fuse before he leaves the service
dept.

Saves having to wait another week for him to return with the CORRECT part.

As for hacking, Hmmm heaps of possibilities :)
Similar to one of the attacks launched against one of the search engines all
appliances could be told to turn off at a specific time, then all turn on at
the same time, the power plant would have a hard time trying to deal with
the sudden instant draw on the grid.

Regards
Andrew
{Original Message removed}

2000\02\15@233648 by Wagner Lipnharski

flavicon
face
This will happens, no matter what.  You will decide and program the
units you would want under service insured or not, and the units would
not only call for service but will also report monthly working
conditions, power consumed, etc.  

More than 15 years ago IBM mainframes 3090 series call by themselves the
IBM service support auto-answer center, report failing components
(customer not even noticed that the computer had an invisible failure).
The automated service center started a part-number delivery at the same
time it creates an incident report and dispatch a technician to the same
place.  It was not rare to the technician arrives at the customer at the
same time with the part being delivered.  Some he not even knew what was
happening, simply a part replacement job.  Those machines allow
hot-swapping (exchange an electronic card without power off). They lived
happily ever after.  

A computer that not only locate its own failures, but point solutions
and request a new electronics. It only requires a human intervention
because at that time robots evolution was not that sophisticated.  A
machine like that running MVS platform could run for months, even years,
without a single reboot, or... hey Bill..how are ya?... blue screen with
a nasty VDX problem.

Man, I would pay $10/month to receive a monthly report at my email about
my appliances conditions. Wouldn't you love to know that your toaster
power cord is 20¡F above the specified because a probably bad contact at
the power outlet at the wall?...or that you must exchange your a/c
filter during the next 5 days... or that your washing machine is
dangerous because it got a broken ground wire?

Yes, dream on. Where are the flying cars we were promised by 2000? We
got different things instead, as cell phones and dvd's. No one not even
dreamed about it 10 years ago, but we are going to use PC processor
chips running at 7GHz pretty soon. For what? well, how come a machine
would start to think like you (or faster) if we don't give them a
chance? For what? For starters, to not fail in jobs where success is
required, for example, to write (and debug) a new version of Windows.

           "Hey fridge buddy,
           faster with those beers,
           we have guests for dinner"

           "ding dong!"

           "hi, we are from your fridge
           maintenance. Its compressor broke and
           it called us. If we replace it now you
           will have plenty of time to cool down
           those beers for tonight, according to
           what the fridge told us..."

           "duh!".


Sean Breheny wrote:
> Yes, that makes sense. However, in the ad, they show a repairman just
> showing up at the door, unannounced, stating that their fridge sent him.
> The homeowners aren't even aware that it is broken. I realize that some of
> this is for dramatic effect, but the idea of it alerting you and the idea
> of alerting the company are two totally different ideas.
[snip]

2000\02\15@234912 by Wagner Lipnharski

flavicon
face
Hacking is a "temporal" problem.  It is very easy to find out the
telephone numbers of millions of faxes around, so why those guys are not
wasting miles of thermal paper by dumping electronic trash for hours at
every fax installed?  simply because this is to old, a kid's game, too
easy and do not challenge them...  It is exactly as winning the easy
entry level of a Nintendo game. Are they disrupting satellites yet?  Of
course not, why they would ruin their game vehicle?  In the future evil
would be eliminated. There is not evil in electronics. "Resist is
futile"... :)

Andrew Hooper wrote:
[snip]
> As for hacking, Hmmm heaps of possibilities :)
> Similar to one of the attacks launched against one of the search engines all
> appliances could be told to turn off at a specific time, then all turn on at
> the same time, the power plant would have a hard time trying to deal with
> the sudden instant draw on the grid.

2000\02\16@035318 by Caisson

flavicon
face
> Van: Wagner Lipnharski <RemoveMEwagnerlTakeThisOuTspamspamEARTHLINK.NET>
> Aan: EraseMEPICLISTspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: Re: Internet Toaster [OT]
> Datum: dinsdag 15 februari 2000 16:26

Hello Wagner,

 It's not the connectivity that worries me, but the problem of privacy.
It is a sort-of-the-same problem as with credit-cards and the like.  It's
too easy to use them to know what a individual is doing, or where he/she
is.  And, taken that the people that want to know these kinds of things
(gouverment explicitely *included*) are mostly not "on your side", it
scares the hell out of me.

Regards,
 Rudy Wieser

> > "So why would Internet connectivity be a good thing for appliances?
>
> 100 years ago this same question would be:
> "So why would a flying vehicle be a good thing for the man?"
>
> 150 years ago this same question would be:
> "So why would electricity be a good thing for us?"

2000\02\16@065347 by Russell McMahon

picon face
> Are they disrupting satellites yet?  Of
>course not, why they would ruin their game vehicle?  In the future evil
>would be eliminated. There is not evil in electronics. "Resist is
>futile"... :)



I understand that people who know what they are doing set up coms links on
the band edges of wideband satellite transponders and steal substantial
international coms bandwidth. Hard to detect and trace apparently.



RM

==============================================
We are the Borg of Pentium
Resistance is futile
You will be approximated.

2000\02\16@072307 by Ken Webster

flavicon
face
Wow!  All kinds of neat ideas on this thread!  But I notice a question I
posed earlier being misinterpreted a little ... I guess I should have asked
"so why would DIRECT Internet connectivity be a good thing for appliances?"

Internet connectivity for a central controller would be great for getting
the correct time, checking the local weather forcast to decide how much to
water the yard, etc.  I just envisioned having a computer or a dedicated
centralized controller (special purpose computer) connected to the Internet
and then having all of the household appliances on their own seperate
minimal-cost minimal-complexity LAN (something like CEBus for instance) on
which the central controller is a node.

Although the central controller could conceivably be used as a gateway to
provide "direct" (as in "just forward the packet for me") Internet
connectivity, I can't think of a compelling reason why any simple appliance
would need to talk directly to anything on the Internet.  I don't think I
would like for my fridge to summon help without letting me know what's going
on first.  Ideally it should talk only to a central controller (preferably
my PC).  The central controller could produce a detailed diagnostic report
which I could examine myself and/or forward to any repair service I choose.

OTOH, letting an appliance automatically "phone home" would allow the
manufacturer to collect all kinds of useful data such as typical usage
patterns and failure modes for their products.  This would allow them to
design superior products and eliminate those stupid "warranty registration"
surveys that nobody fills out anyway.  One problem with this is that it
would piss off a lot of potential customers ... even though I personally
don't care what "big brother" knows about me I know a lot of people who do.
Some people may also be unwilling to let their appliances use any of their
connection bandwidth for purposes that don't benefit them directly.  Thus I
believe that it would be best to have the appliance send messages "home" if
and only if the owner approves.  A centralized controller would be very easy
to configure in this manner -- either allow message forwarding or don't.

One additional benefit of having the appliance LAN isolated from the
Internet is that the central controller could act as a firewall and provide
hackers with a much more challenging problem to solve :o)

But, more seriously, a central controller could be provided with enough
processing power and resources to speak more sophisticated protocols than an
appliance could be enabled to speak for a reasonable cost (any time in the
NEAR future).  It could thus provide a really nice web-based interface to
all of your appliances without draining your bank account.  The appliances
themselves would need only to send and receive primative packets of
information and let the central controller worry about formatting the data
so that it is viewable as a nice pretty web page with graphs and charts and
other cool goodies.  Whether these pages should be served only on a LAN or
be made available on the Internet could be left to the consumer to decide.

Ken

2000\02\16@080119 by ser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)

picon face
Your comment:  I can't think of a compelling reason why any simple appliance
would need to talk directly to anything on the Internet


How about for appliance "enhancement" - say that your traditional
Refrigerator/Stove/Microwave oven is now a "Food Preparation Appliance" that
manages the inventory in the pantry, that has online recipes, that can
perform a series of food preparation tasks.  Be nice if you could command it
from the office to begin a food preparation task, have it communicate with
the grocery store listing items needed and you can pick them up on the way
home, and be able to update it recipes off the internet.  And, finally be
able to download latest firmware :-)

2000\02\16@080920 by D Lloyd

flavicon
face
What about parallel processing?

Your PC is busy ripping off MP3s and decides that, even with 128GB of
RAM/1000MHz processor required for Win2000, that is hasnt enough
resources......but your microwave isnt doing anything so your PC passes some
stuff to do for the microwave.......and the microwave sends the results back
when complete. And, if its too much for the microwave, the toaster could even
handle some of it, providing it wasnt burning your bread (why do toasters always
operate independently of their control pot ? ) at the time.

Probably more suited to Bluetooth, but hey.

Dan

2000\02\16@082208 by Alan Pearce

face picon face
>that manages the inventory in the pantry ....

I wouldn't trust the stores here in the UK to deliver what was ordered. I don't
want to open my fridge to find that what I ordered as cheese is actually a lemon
scented wash powder as has actually been delivered to some people! The
substitutions that have been made on occasions as reported on consumer affairs
programs have been ridiculous. totally different product lines like soap have
been substituted for food!

2000\02\16@085602 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
> so why those guys are not
> wasting miles of thermal paper by dumping electronic trash for hours at
> every fax installed?

Because it is illegal, and one can be prosecuted for doing so.  Unfortunately
the same laws have not been passed for inappropiate use of one's computer and
server resources.

-Adam

2000\02\16@094908 by ser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)

picon face
{Quote hidden}

2000\02\16@113311 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
I agree with you. But ever since a Social Security Number or any other
way to control your taxes were invented, your privacy was down the
hill.  The only way you have today to live in total privacy is charge in
cash, pay your bills in cash, stay far from hotels, rent-a-cars, use
pay-phones, drive a moped smaller than 50cc (no license required)...
hehe... unfortunately we need to pay a price for progress.  Problem is
not the privacy issue, but how bad it can be used. I for one would
choose not to go back to the caves and woods... :)

Caisson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2000\02\16@121916 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Of course it is illegal, as is illegal to stop Ebay for hours, or
hacking CIA secrets, or produce and distribute a computer virus, or
graphity at white walls. My point was that; wasting fax paper is not
even a small challenge for an evil hacker, he is not interested. When
you try to get in 1st place in a Nintendo game, it is because you are
trying to demonstrate you are better than the challenge. A hacker game
is much higher than wasting fax paper.  According to yesterday's Clinton
meeting about computer hacking, Internet and server resources should be
considered company "assets" (he used other words), and should be
protected accordingly, by the government or some other way. Probably
regulations will come.

"M. Adam Davis" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2000\02\16@142140 by l.allen

picon face
> What about parallel processing?
>
> Your PC is busy ripping off MP3s and decides that, even with 128GB of
> RAM/1000MHz processor required for Win2000, that is hasnt enough
> resources......but your microwave isnt doing anything so your PC passes some
> stuff to do for the microwave.......and the microwave sends the results back
> when complete. And, if its too much for the microwave, the toaster could even
> handle some of it, providing it wasnt burning your bread (why do toasters always
> operate independently of their control pot ? ) at the time.
>
> Probably more suited to Bluetooth, but hey.
>
> Dan

Your appliances could get together, make fraudulent E-
transactions, rip off the Tax Man and set you up as the fall guy.

_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

_____________________________

2000\02\16@191245 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:19:10 +1200 Lance Allen <RemoveMEl.allenKILLspamspamAUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
writes:
>
>
> Your appliances could get together, make fraudulent E-
> transactions, rip off the Tax Man and set you up as the fall guy.
>

       Or they could get together and crash ebay, or maybe run SETI at Home and
find ET.

Harold



FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/tagj.

2000\02\16@200322 by Ken Webster

flavicon
face
>Your comment:  I can't think of a compelling reason why any simple
appliance
>would need to talk directly to anything on the Internet
>
>
>How about for appliance "enhancement" - say that your traditional
>Refrigerator/Stove/Microwave oven is now a "Food Preparation Appliance"
that
>manages the inventory in the pantry, that has online recipes, that can
>perform a series of food preparation tasks.  Be nice if you could command
it
>from the office to begin a food preparation task, have it communicate with
>the grocery store listing items needed and you can pick them up on the way
>home, and be able to update it recipes off the internet.  And, finally be
>able to download latest firmware :-)


That would be really cool!

Yet I still think it would be more practical to let a centralized controller
(i.e. your PC) do all the higher-level stuff (talking on the Internet,
coordinating the food preperation activities, developing alternate plans in
case of exceptions -- "Oops!  The store sent me washing powder instead of
cheese!")

The controllers embedded in the appliances could then be very cheap and
simple and focus only on controlling and monitoring the appliance itself.
Software (or firmware) upgrades would only be needed for the central
controller since it should be a simple matter to get an embedded appliance
controller to switch a burner on and off and report its temperature and
power consumption via CEBus.  The fridge's controller could simply switch
the compressor, fans, and defrosting heater on and off and monitor the power
consumption and temperatures at a few key points ... the central controller
could have a software module downloaded from the manufacturer which analyzes
this data to measure the health of the appliance and warn you when anything
is failing (or when the radiator becomes clogged with dust and you are
wasting energy because it can't vent heat efficiently).  The central
controller could use state-of-the-art technology allowing for much more
sophisticated control, data analysis, and data presentation than the average
consumer would be willing to pay for on a per-appliance basis.

More importantly, a centralized controller would be able to easily adapt to
changes in the system's configuration.  When you buy a new blender, for
instance, why should your Refrigerator/Stove/Microwave have to be updated or
reconfigured to accomodate it?  The central controller could simply detect
that a new appliance is present on the LAN and use an ID code or URI
supplied by it to contact the manufacturer to download an appropriate
control module.  The appliance control module would provide a software
interface that the food preperation module could recognize and communicate
with.

I suppose distributed control does have some advantages, too.  It would be
pretty cool to offload processing tasks to the doorbell and have all of your
appliances participate in SETI or distributed.net.  It would also be nice to
not have to revert to manual control of everything just because one computer
went down.  But if you can afford to pay for that much computing power for
your doorbell then you could certainly afford to buy a few extra PC's to put
on a LAN.

Ken

2000\02\16@210037 by John Orhan

flavicon
face
They already have that - its called shopping online. Anything more
constitutes laziness

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Webster [KenSTOPspamspamspam_OUTWEBSTER.ORG]
Sent: Thursday, 17 February 2000 12:05
To: spamBeGonePICLISTSTOPspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Internet Toaster [OT]


>Your comment:  I can't think of a compelling reason why any simple
appliance
>would need to talk directly to anything on the Internet
>
>
>How about for appliance "enhancement" - say that your traditional
>Refrigerator/Stove/Microwave oven is now a "Food Preparation Appliance"
that
>manages the inventory in the pantry, that has online recipes, that can
>perform a series of food preparation tasks.  Be nice if you could command
it
>from the office to begin a food preparation task, have it communicate with
>the grocery store listing items needed and you can pick them up on the way
>home, and be able to update it recipes off the internet.  And, finally be
>able to download latest firmware :-)


That would be really cool!

Yet I still think it would be more practical to let a centralized controller
(i.e. your PC) do all the higher-level stuff (talking on the Internet,
coordinating the food preperation activities, developing alternate plans in
case of exceptions -- "Oops!  The store sent me washing powder instead of
cheese!")

The controllers embedded in the appliances could then be very cheap and
simple and focus only on controlling and monitoring the appliance itself.
Software (or firmware) upgrades would only be needed for the central
controller since it should be a simple matter to get an embedded appliance
controller to switch a burner on and off and report its temperature and
power consumption via CEBus.  The fridge's controller could simply switch
the compressor, fans, and defrosting heater on and off and monitor the power
consumption and temperatures at a few key points ... the central controller
could have a software module downloaded from the manufacturer which analyzes
this data to measure the health of the appliance and warn you when anything
is failing (or when the radiator becomes clogged with dust and you are
wasting energy because it can't vent heat efficiently).  The central
controller could use state-of-the-art technology allowing for much more
sophisticated control, data analysis, and data presentation than the average
consumer would be willing to pay for on a per-appliance basis.

More importantly, a centralized controller would be able to easily adapt to
changes in the system's configuration.  When you buy a new blender, for
instance, why should your Refrigerator/Stove/Microwave have to be updated or
reconfigured to accomodate it?  The central controller could simply detect
that a new appliance is present on the LAN and use an ID code or URI
supplied by it to contact the manufacturer to download an appropriate
control module.  The appliance control module would provide a software
interface that the food preperation module could recognize and communicate
with.

I suppose distributed control does have some advantages, too.  It would be
pretty cool to offload processing tasks to the doorbell and have all of your
appliances participate in SETI or distributed.net.  It would also be nice to
not have to revert to manual control of everything just because one computer
went down.  But if you can afford to pay for that much computing power for
your doorbell then you could certainly afford to buy a few extra PC's to put
on a LAN.

Ken

2000\02\16@221333 by Ken Webster

flavicon
face
>They already have that - its called shopping online. Anything more
>constitutes laziness


What's wrong with laziness?

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a good general-purpose robot
that can vacuum, wash dishes, do laundry, scrub the toilet, etc.  And
perhaps even manage a store-room of electronics parts so I don't keep
wasting time searching for parts that I know I have but am too disorganized
to locate.  No more bins marked with sticky labels that fall off because the
glue dried up -- the robot would simply look up the part in a database and
know its physical coordinates to within a millimeter.  A few seconds later
it would hand the part to me and I could go on with building my prototype.
After I'm finished I could let it pull the parts off the breadboard and
restock them. :o)

2000\02\17@085104 by ser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)

picon face
Digressing on this Internet Toaster topic, Sony may be on to capturing a big
part of consumer appliances.  I have a Sony Receiver and VCR.  Both are
designed so they work together and the remote control can be set to operate
Infared or RF.  Sony has designed the VCR to be able to automatically set
its clock from a signal from cable or DSS.  Now, what if Sony started
selling clocks that could automatically be  set from an RF signal from the
VCR -- hey no more having to deal with going through the house setting
clocks on power interruption, or having to do the twice yearly daylight
savings time set forward/set back 1 hour.  If Sony could capture the
consumers imagination of  "intelligent" appliances, that brand would be
preferable over comparable but unintelligent appliances - especially if they
are designed to work together.

Maybe even basic email could be done over cable or DSS, captured, and shown
over a TV rather than a PC.  With this established, you could technically
remotely control a Sony appliance via the Internet via an email message
containing a specific device ID of the appliance in the home.

Maybe I'm off on this approach, but soon these capabilities will appear by
some company bold enough to try to pull it off.

2000\02\17@090141 by Alan Pearce

face picon face
>Now, what if Sony started
>selling clocks that could automatically be  set from an RF signal from the
>VCR -- hey no more having to deal with going

Have you tried emailing Sony with the idea?

2000\02\17@123012 by Severson, Rob

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face
> I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a good
> general-purpose robot
> that can vacuum, wash dishes, do laundry, scrub the toilet, etc.

I just picture walking into the bathroom to see this "general purpose robot"
doing the dishes in the toilet...

2000\02\17@125706 by ser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)

picon face
> Your comment:  I can't think of a compelling reason why any simple
> appliance would need to talk directly to anything on the Internet
>
How about connecting to the Internet something as simple and dump as a
"picture frame"?  If it was powered and connected to the Internet, in the
future you could take the family down to the photo studio for a family
portrait.  Then, by the time you got back home, your "Internet connected"
picture frame would have downloaded that portrait and would be there hanging
on the wall before you got home.  Even be possible to have animated pictures
- your wife could be winking at you in her picture portrait :-)  This is all
possible because we all expect TV's to soon utilize flat-panel screens
making those possible for ordinary and common picture frame.

2000\02\17@131955 by ser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)

picon face
...well, if we never saw our "general purpose robot" washing dishes in the
toilet, then we could go on with our perception that all was ok :-)  As
things get more complicated, we may hope we don't know how things are done.
What do they say "two things you don't want to see made -- sausage and laws"
;-(

{Quote hidden}

2000\02\17@150325 by Randy Glenn

picon face
Laziness? Or evolution? It could be argued that technological advancement constitutes
evolution - the evolution of behaviour, not physical construction.

Behavioural evolution may have just as much an impact, if not more of an impact, than
physical evolution - if you learn to avoid the lava, you don't need to be able to walk
through it. (wow, that's a bad analogy, even for me!)

END PHILISOPHICAL B.S.

-Randy Glenn
E-Mail: @spam@PICxpert@spam@spamspam_OUTyahoo.com
Web: http://i.am/PICxpert

Currently wondering why I can't get in to Safe Mode - where's a Mac when you need it?

{Original Message removed}

2000\02\24@181012 by Daniel Hart

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face
If debugging windows is too hard for bill its too hard for a fridge!
Dan

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--

Daniel Hart
Embedded Systems Engineer
NBS Technologies, Vision Inspection Systems
70 Eisenhower Drive, Paramus, NJ 07652, USA
+1 201 845 7373 x183    spamBeGonedhartspamKILLspamnbstech.com

2000\02\24@181432 by Daniel Hart

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face
If you asume that I own a building with many apartments and am responsible for all these repairs,
(or a dorm),  then the whole concept makes sense because I can save a bundle on repair costs. (Just
like if I owned a mainframe computer or 50 copy machines.) But they all have to speak the same
language, use the same user interface, show me the same menues, and be purchased from different
vendors many years apart. The PC and SMALL appliance replacement rate is 3-4 times that of the large
appliance replacement rate. Only something as slow moving as a government bureaucracy could do this
thing.
Dan

Andrew Hooper wrote:

> Then again, the repair man could use the system to test the fridge and see
> what the fault is, for example you lodge a call stating that the fridge is
> broken, he asks what's wrong with it, "you say" its not working :)...
> ...

> Regards
> Andrew
> {Original Message removed}

2000\02\24@182108 by Daniel Hart

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face
An intelligently installed central controller could also provide a translate function and make my
many disparate appliances speak my language (even if there were a few blank fields here and there in
my status page)
Dan.

Ken Webster wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--

Daniel Hart
Embedded Systems Engineer
NBS Technologies, Vision Inspection Systems
70 Eisenhower Drive, Paramus, NJ 07652, USA
+1 201 845 7373 x183    .....dhartspam_OUTspamnbstech.com

2000\02\24@182527 by Daniel Hart

flavicon
face
So why are new homes still wired with 4 wire phone cable?
Dan

Ken Webster wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--

Daniel Hart
Embedded Systems Engineer
NBS Technologies, Vision Inspection Systems
70 Eisenhower Drive, Paramus, NJ 07652, USA
+1 201 845 7373 x183    TakeThisOuTdhart.....spamTakeThisOuTnbstech.com

2000\02\24@183331 by Daniel Hart

flavicon
face
LAZINESS? To interrupt a session of Homeworld, or an even more advanced adventure like programming a
household appliance, for a few minutes while selecting your menu for the evening confident in your
stove/fridge's ability to order the materials needed from it's menu BOM and insure that they are
delivered in time for you to cook... whoops, I'm too busy to cook. Let's go online and order
take-out.
Dan :--)

John Orhan wrote:

> They already have that - its called shopping online. Anything more
> constitutes laziness
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Webster [TakeThisOuTKenKILLspamspamspamWEBSTER.ORG]
> Sent: Thursday, 17 February 2000 12:05
> ...

Daniel Hart
Embedded Systems Engineer
NBS Technologies, Vision Inspection Systems
70 Eisenhower Drive, Paramus, NJ 07652, USA
+1 201 845 7373 x183    .....dhartspamRemoveMEnbstech.com

2000\02\24@184218 by Daniel Hart

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face
I bought a SONY stereo system some years ago. It had all the interconnect between the components,
worked off a single remote etc. I was very satisfied and still use it. SONY components will no
longer inter-operate with my "old fashioned" design. The compatibility cycle is less (I'm Guessing)
less than 5 years. Tie every thing to 10baseT ethernet and talk via TCP/IP or it will die. Sure it's
overkill for the average household, now. If my 10 year old system was 10baseT I could still use it.
I could even write drivers for it (if I could get specs?). 10baseT will live as long as I will (if
I'm lucky).
Dan

"Moser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)" wrote:

> Digressing on this Internet Toaster topic, Sony may be on to capturing a big
> part of consumer appliances.  I have a Sony Receiver and VCR.  Both are
> designed so they work together and the remote control can be set to operate
> Infared or RF.  Sony has designed the VCR to be able to ...

> --

Daniel Hart
Embedded Systems Engineer
NBS Technologies, Vision Inspection Systems
70 Eisenhower Drive, Paramus, NJ 07652, USA
+1 201 845 7373 x183    RemoveMEdhartspamspamBeGonenbstech.com

2000\02\24@190056 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Just because the new owners are dumb enough not to request several
category 5 cables, video, coax, audio, etc, before the construction.
Everybody has the chance to change the house plans, including security
etc, 24Vdc, 12Vdc, 5Vdc...

Daniel Hart wrote:
>
> So why are new homes still wired with 4 wire phone cable?
> Dan

2000\02\24@190704 by Quitt, Walter

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face
At over $100 per service per outlet, it gets damn expensive fast.
I was shocked when I inquired.  AND they will not let you put it
yourself while the house is still just a frame.  Besides ignorance,
that was the reason we didn't! -W

{Original Message removed}

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