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'Internet Toaster'
2000\02\11@150235 by Lawrence Lile

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Well, my personal hell has finally arrived, they want me to design an
internet enabled toaster... almost.


I'm asked to incorporate some kind of module that communicates with an
external time standard (WWV, GPS, atomic time, whatever) that programs the
clock on appliances  (coffeemakers especially.)  You plug it in, it knows
what time it is.  Simple.


Not for me.  Anybody heard of these little modules?

-- Lawrence Lile

2000\02\11@154236 by MegaBolt

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----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Lile <spam_OUTlilelTakeThisOuTspamtoastmaster.com>
To: <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 12:01 PM
Subject: Internet Toaster


{Quote hidden}

Caller ID signal provide local time info.
Available also everywhere.
You just have to call yourself :)

2000\02\11@160052 by Harold M Hallikainen

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       How about a radio receiver that receives NIST stations WWV or WWVL? I've
seen clocks in catalogs that have these receivers in them for $25 to $50.
I sure don't want to order a DSL line for my toaster...


Harold



On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:01:23 -0600 Lawrence Lile <lilelspamKILLspamTOASTMASTER.COM>
writes:
{Quote hidden}

FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/tagj.

2000\02\11@162340 by John Mitchell

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On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Lawrence Lile wrote:

> I'm asked to incorporate some kind of module that communicates with an
> external time standard (WWV, GPS, atomic time, whatever) that programs the
> clock on appliances  (coffeemakers especially.)  You plug it in, it knows
> what time it is.  Simple.

You have to get your time sync from somewhere.  One possibility you didnt
mention is TV.  Some stations (PBS?) broadcast clock information in the
vertical blank interval...  Since TV chips have been around for along
time, are well understood, and are *cheap*, this might be a reasonable
option.

I'm sure someone more knowledgable on this list could provide more
information.


- j

2000\02\11@162750 by Severson, Rob

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How will you handle local time differences? Will the coffeemaker "know" what
timezone it is in?


> {Original Message removed}

2000\02\12@030539 by Russell McMahon

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Need more information (as always)

What is acceptable cost range? (This is THE biggest question)

What is acceptable time stability with time :-) and why?
How long must this function autonomously?
May it connect to eg phone line.
Is it mains powered? (presumably yes)
Are there more than one of these in the same area/building etc? - if so, how
many typically?
Is radio reception assured (rf screening etc).

and anything else that may be pertinent?


     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

>From other worlds - http://www.easttimor.com
                               http://www.sudan.com

What can one man* do?
Help the hungry at no cost to yourself!
at  http://www.thehungersite.com/

(* - or woman, child or internet enabled intelligent entity :-))


{Original Message removed}

2000\02\13@143029 by l.allen

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>
> I'm asked to incorporate some kind of module that communicates with an
> external time standard (WWV, GPS, atomic time, whatever) that programs the
> clock on appliances  (coffeemakers especially.)  You plug it in, it knows
> what time it is.  Simple.
>
>
> Not for me.  Anybody heard of these little modules?
>
> -- Lawrence Lile

I think that the only practical way with present technology is to
have a through-the-AC-mains comms that each appliance listens to
with a master unit that publishes the time.
The master unit can either be a GPS, Radio time receiver or
whatever.
So each house/facility has one of these master units and the
appliances that need to know the time have cheap little decode
units in them. That way you can control cross coupling of the
superimposed HF in household mains circuits relatively easily,
often not needing any coupling at all.
You could even consider the dreaded X10.


_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

_____________________________

2000\02\14@150752 by Giles L. Honeycutt

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Well, do you need to do it?  Can a low power RTC work if it lasts
for 10 years?  Set it on assembly of product.
Just an idea, I don't know the constraints of the project.

Best regards,
Giles



{Original Message removed}

2000\02\14@170904 by M. Adam Davis

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That's a really good idea!!! (wish I'd thought of it)

It wouldn't be too hard to put in 'one-button time set' which would cycle
through the time zones.  Daylight savings time might be a bit more involved,
perhaps just let the user push the button to a different time zone each fall and
spring.

If you are marketing this in the US you can assume daylight savings time for all
but two states.  Set it on by default, and tell them they can toggle it on or
off by holding the time-set button down for 3 seconds.

The time zone and daylight savings time problem still remains with the WWV/WWVB
time broadcasts, and requires a similar solution.

The only difficulty is not whether the RTC lasts for 10 years, but whether it
has +/- 1 minute accuracy every ten years!  (ie, practically impossible, it can
be done, but not for cheap...)  I suppose if you design the liftime of the
product for 1-3 years you can probably get away with up to 2 minutes difference
after each year.

<humor>
PRODUCT NOTES: If your coffeemaker clock is running fast (ahead by 1 minute or
more) please place it in your freezer for 2 days.  Be sure to let it warm up to
room temperature before using it after it is removed from the freezer.  If your
coffeemaker clock is running slowly, please bake at 200 degrees Farenheit for 2
hours for each minute it is behind.  (caution: Product may be hot right out of
the oven!)
</humor>

Or even still, put the WWVB receiver in it with the RTC, and tell them to leave
it on their roof for a day if the time is wrong.  People will think your company
is crazy!

-Adam

"Giles L. Honeycutt" wrote:
>
> Well, do you need to do it?  Can a low power RTC work if it lasts
> for 10 years?  Set it on assembly of product.
> Just an idea, I don't know the constraints of the project.
>
> Best regards,
> Giles
>
> {Original Message removed}

2000\02\14@171532 by Dave VanHorn

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> Or even still, put the WWVB receiver in it with the RTC, and tell them to
leave
> it on their roof for a day if the time is wrong.  People will think your
company
> is crazy!

WWVL works indoors (60 kHz)

Also, you can use the powerline for timing, as it's very accurate long term.
Get your timefix, then do_while_power { count_cycles ()}

2000\02\14@171943 by M. Adam Davis

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The only difficulty being that in the fringe areas reception will be better on
the roof than inside the house, and its unlikely they'll put a large loop
antenna in the coffee maker.

-Adam

Dave VanHorn wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2000\02\14@172747 by ser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)

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I recently purchased a Sony VCR -- the manual stated that the VCR would
automatically set its clock when powered on.  Could be some time signal sent
over cable or satellite.  Be nice if our government mandated that time
signals along with other information be encoded on our Power Grid so that
any device that plugs into 120vac could capture that information.  How about
time signals, weather information, news headlines, currency translations,
stock pricing, etc?





{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2000\02\14@174043 by James Paul

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The obvious question I can come up with right away is
"How much are you willing to pay for something like this?"
I'm sure it can be done, but until the power companies or
such figure a way to make a buck from it, you probably won't
see it.   Am I cynical?  Yes, I guess I probably am.  I have
seen so many good ideas put to use making rich people richer
and poor or lower class people cannot benefit from them or
can't afford to benefit from them, that I'm against a lot of
things now that I would have been for a few years ago.  It's
not so much the idea of making a buck off an idea, it's the
prices that are charged.  Most of the time they are outrageous.
Okay, I'll go away now.  I've said my piece.  Good luck on
getting this information encoded on the power grid at a cost you
can afford.

                                         Regards,

                                           Jim





On Mon, 14 February 2000, "Moser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2000\02\14@180948 by mike

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Hi Lawrence,

I've read some of the other responses and thought I'lld chuck in another 2c
worth.
Here in Austarlia HPM run a pager based distributed time service, I'm not
sure if it is avaliable elsewhere, and I'm afraid I can't remember the
product name.

It works like this :-

A message is sent via the paging netowrk containing a time stamp.

Due to paging's broadcast nature all receivers receive the message at
exactly the same time.

A receiver at the base station is monitored and the time difference between
the timestamp embeded in the message and the time the message was actually
received is noted.

A second correction message is then sent containing a correction value to
add to the first timestamp to get the real time.


Regards,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Cornelius                  Internet: KILLspammikeKILLspamspambytethis.com.au
Byte This Interactive           Phone:    +61 2 9310-2157
PO Box 1342 Strawberry Hills    FAX:      +61 2 9319-3948
NSW 2012 Australia              URL:      http://www.bytethis.com.au
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




{Original Message removed}

2000\02\14@185502 by andy howard

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> I recently purchased a Sony VCR -- the manual stated that the VCR
would
> automatically set its clock when powered on.  Could be some time
signal sent
> over cable or satellite.

Do you have teletext (aka videotext) on TVs in the US? It's a fairly
elderly but still popular system of sending low bandwidth data in a
couple of unused lines immediately after the vertical sync.

All of the services you mention below are available, along with TV
listings (naturally), advertising, especially for holidays for some
reason, and much else too.

I only mention this because VCRs here in Europe sometimes take the time
signal sent along with this data to set their own clocks.



> Be nice if our government mandated that time
> signals along with other information be encoded on our Power Grid so
that
> any device that plugs into 120vac could capture that information.  How
about
> time signals, weather information, news headlines, currency
translations,
> stock pricing, etc?

2000\02\14@193834 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Problem is all the digital or highfreq signal dropouts over power grid
components. I already saw some suggestion like that based on FM radio
stations transmission on side band carriers. A low cost FM receiver
would be installed at your house at *any* power outlet and would
generate a RF carrier to send modulated digital data to any other
devices at your house over the power wires.

Yes, as a programmed serial number at the receiver, a service could be
developed.  You call a special 1-900 number (charged per call to the
caller) and send a sequence of DTMF codes, your house FM receiver serial
number, your password and special control commands. The FM transmission
at your area would insert your signal after some time. You could turn on
and off things at your home without using your phone connection. This
could be pretty useful for places without telephone lines, or even
remote sites without even power, since FM could be received up at the
mountains and isolated areas. Those FM receivers could run on batteries
or even at local generated power. You could say we are reinventing a
beeper or a cell phone? :)

Ten years ago in Brazil a friend of mine in S‹o Paulo city was producing
a device based on the 8051, with a multi frequency FM embedded radio
receiver. 3 or 4 FM radio stations were sending the same signal at their
side bands. The receiver was a simple device that was constantly looking
for the strongest FM signal. The device (broadcast receiver) had two
outputs, one to superimpose video to a regular TV, another was a RS232
connection to send this data to any terminal or PC. The data transmitted
was stock pricing...
 

"Moser, Carl Woodrow, JR (Carl)" wrote:
>
> I recently purchased a Sony VCR -- the manual stated that the VCR would
> automatically set its clock when powered on.  Could be some time signal sent
> over cable or satellite.  Be nice if our government mandated that time
> signals along with other information be encoded on our Power Grid so that
> any device that plugs into 120vac could capture that information.  How about
> time signals, weather information, news headlines, currency translations,
> stock pricing, etc?

2000\02\14@222835 by Carl Moser

picon face
Continuing this dialog, this brings up an interesting question.  I hear a
lot about "Internet-enabled" appliances in the home.  Wonder how visionaries
of the future think these devices will connect to the Interent -- AC power,
wireless, another wire connection?

2000\02\14@225724 by Dale Botkin

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> Continuing this dialog, this brings up an interesting question.  I hear a
> lot about "Internet-enabled" appliances in the home.  Wonder how
> visionaries
> of the future think these devices will connect to the Interent --
> AC power,
> wireless, another wire connection?

All of the above...  on a household net, connected to the rest of the world
via DSL or cable modem.  OK, so does the thought of every slack-jawed hacker
wannabe looking for exploits for your fridge and microwave scare anyone
else?  Thank heaven for Linux & ipchains...

Dale
-----
In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror,
murder and bloodshed. They produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the
Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, 500 years of democracy
and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock."
  --- Orson Welles

2000\02\14@231417 by Randy Glenn

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What, you mean someone hacking into my fridge, and turning on the ice maker?

I'm not so sure about IPCHAINS - soon, your broadband providers might not let you use it.
@Home only lets me use their web page and email from the computer connected directly to
the cable modem - not the other 4 behind that computer! Unless, that is, you pay for extra
IP addresses... to a maximum of 2 extras per cable "modem"...

-Randy Glenn
E-Mail: RemoveMEPICxpertTakeThisOuTspamyahoo.com
Web: http://i.am/PICxpert

Currently wondering why I can't get in to Safe Mode - where's a Mac when you need it?

{Original Message removed}

2000\02\14@232905 by Dr. Douglas Gourlay

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FYI,
You can easily use gate software like Wingate, or All Aboard to generate
virtual IP's for that ethernet behind the cable modem.  there is no extra
charge, and can even be a software only solution.

I am a very happy user! :)

Now, can a PIC be used in this topic in some way?

Cheers

Doug
{Original Message removed}

2000\02\14@232916 by rwuest

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@home won't let you use masquerading?  How do they know?

Robert

On 14 Feb, Randy Glenn wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2000\02\15@005318 by William Chops Westfield

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>    Wonder how visionaries of the future think these devices will connect
>    to the Interent -- AC power, wireless, another wire connection?

There are proposed technologies for ALL of those.

"The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many to
choose from."

:-)
BillW

2000\02\15@010138 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   @Home only lets me use their web page and email from the computer
   connected directly to the cable modem - not the other 4 behind that
   computer! Unless, that is, you pay for extra IP addresses... to a
   maximum of 2 extras per cable "modem"...

You can run NAT (Network address translation), and your ISP need never
know.  It'll even provide a bit of extra security.

BillW

2000\02\15@022635 by Russell McMahon

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>What, you mean someone hacking into my fridge, and turning on the ice
maker?


No, hackers don't work like that usually.
.
They'd turn OFF the freezer :-).

RM

2000\02\15@040715 by Andrew Hooper

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One of the manufacturers of White Wear in New Zealand install a prepay
cell phone into some of the refrigerators, im not to sure but it may just
be the experimental ones.

They can then call up these fridge's and analyze the average internal,
external
and motor temperatures. Also they can find out what the running cycles are
of the fridge.

Hmm, wonder if they can listen in on the conversations in the house to :)

Andrew Hooper

2000\02\15@054039 by Russell McMahon

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>One of the manufacturers of White Wear in New Zealand install a prepay
>cell phone into some of the refrigerators, im not to sure but it may just
>be the experimental ones.


Is there more than one :-) ?
NZ trojan horse cell phones sell for about $US50 and are useable
indefinitely at no extra charge apart from call charges.
They may be called to at cost to callers only.
An excellent means of remote telemetry acquistiuon from most places in NZ.

One of these plus a gps unit gives you "where are you" capability.



>
>They can then call up these fridge's and analyze the average internal,
>external
>and motor temperatures. Also they can find out what the running cycles are
>of the fridge.
>
>Hmm, wonder if they can listen in on the conversations in the house to :)


If they wished to this would be easily done.


>
>Andrew Hooper
>

2000\02\15@103838 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Nope. That would be too nice for us Yanks. We have close captioning,
however, and I wonder if one of the cable channels carries time on that? BTY
has anyone ever used a PIC (damn it I'll keep this on topic somehow <GRIN>)
to decode closed captioning?

---
James Newton TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonEraseMEspamspam_OUTgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)


{Original Message removed}

2000\02\15@161235 by Harold M Hallikainen

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On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:10:35 +1300 Andrew Hooper <RemoveMEandrewspamTakeThisOuTBEST.NET.NZ>
writes:
> One of the manufacturers of White Wear in New Zealand install a
> prepay
> cell phone into some of the refrigerators, im not to sure but it may
> just
> be the experimental ones.
>
> They can then call up these fridge's and analyze the average
> internal,
> external
> and motor temperatures. Also they can find out what the running
> cycles are
> of the fridge.
>
>

       This reminds me of a very clever idea I heard from a Canadian company.
They built a cordless phone transceiver into a cable tv converter box.
They then gave consumers a complete cordless phone that this box could
talk to. The cable tv box would then phone in tv viewing info for
ratings.
       I wonder if a similar thing could be done with the toaster. Put a
cordless phone in the toaster. It then communicates with a base station
that calls out to set the time on power-up and occasionally. There are
also those little "cordless phone outlets" that give you tip and ring
when you plug the device in a wall outlet. It then communicates with a
similar device that has access to both AC and the phone line. I've seen
these used with satellite pay per view services to phone in billing info.

Harold



FCC Rules Online at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules
Lighting control for theatre and television at http://www.dovesystems.com

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
dl.http://www.juno.com/get/tagj.

2000\02\16@133152 by Andrew Hooper

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Then again, the repair man could use the system to test the fridge and see
what the fault is, for example you lodge a call stating that the fridge is
broken, he asks what's wrong with it, "you say" its not working :)...

He then interrogates the fridge to find that the condenser is faulty and
knows exactly what part to bring with him to repair the unit onsite.

Same goes for the stove, It will tell him if the reason the element is not
going is the switch, the element or the fuse before he leaves the service
dept.

Saves having to wait another week for him to return with the CORRECT part.

As for hacking, Hmmm heaps of possibilities :)
Similar to one of the attacks launched against one of the search engines all
appliances could be told to turn off at a specific time, then all turn on at
the same time, the power plant would have a hard time trying to deal with
the sudden instant draw on the grid.

Regards
Andrew

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