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PICList Thread
'International RF Transmitters (a correction)'
1996\12\09@181617 by fastfwd

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Dudes:

Some time ago, I posted a message saying that low-power RF
transmitters intended for use in EC countries (like France) were
illegal for use here in the States.

I've since discovered that I was wrong; the newest EC standards put
those transmitters at 433.92 MHz, and we in the States are now
allowed to use anything in the 290-450 MHz range.

Of course, the comments I made about ensuring that your transmission
and encoding methods are FCC-legal is still true; you can't, for
instance, use these transmitters as wireless serial-data links, etc.

Sorry for any confusion my original message may have caused.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - spam_OUTfastfwdTakeThisOuTspamix.netcom.com                 ===
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California          ===
===                                                       ===
=== Custodian of the PICLIST Fund -- For more info, see:  ===
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499/fund.html ===

1996\12\10@020615 by Perry Ogletree

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I would suggest, that unless you want to incur the wrath of an operator
with an effective radiated power high enough to boil water at 100 paces,
that you check for local Earth-Moon-Earth and satellite operations by
amateur radio operators.  They have (I believe) primary access to these
frequencies (the 420 to 450 MHz. 70 cm. band).  Their is also military
radar that operates in parts of that band.


{Quote hidden}

1996\12\10@021900 by Dave Mullenix

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>Some time ago, I posted a message saying that low-power RF
>transmitters intended for use in EC countries (like France) were
>illegal for use here in the States.
>
>I've since discovered that I was wrong; the newest EC standards put
>those transmitters at 433.92 MHz, and we in the States are now
>allowed to use anything in the 290-450 MHz range.

I would check first.   433.92 MHz is in the middle of the American 70 cm
Amateur Radio band.  I'm sure these are legal in the US if you have a ham
license, but probably not otherwise.

1996\12\10@031011 by fastfwd

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Dave Mullenix <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> >Some time ago, I posted a message saying that low-power RF
> >transmitters intended for use in EC countries (like France) were
> >illegal for use here in the States.
> >
> >I've since discovered that I was wrong; the newest EC standards put
> >those transmitters at 433.92 MHz, and we in the States are now
> >allowed to use anything in the 290-450 MHz range.
>
> I would check first.   433.92 MHz is in the middle of the American
> 70 cm Amateur Radio band.  I'm sure these are legal in the US if you
> have a ham license, but probably not otherwise.

Sigh...

I am PERFECTLY willing to admit that I'm wrong (especially since it'd
imply that I was RIGHT the first time)... Does the fact that the
transmitters in question only transmit at VERY low power make any
difference?

-Andy

Andrew Warren - .....fastfwdKILLspamspam.....ix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1996\12\10@064323 by Lee Johnston

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On Monday December 9, 1996 Andrew Warren stated:

> I've since discovered that I was wrong; the newest EC standards put
> those transmitters at 433.92 MHz, and we in the States are now
> allowed to use anything in the 290-450 MHz range.
>
> Of course, the comments I made about ensuring that your transmission
> and encoding methods are FCC-legal is still true; you can't, for
> instance, use these transmitters as wireless serial-data links, etc.
>


The 433.92 MHz frequency falls in the amateur radio 70cm band and so these
devices would be suitable for amateur experimentation. Obviously any
serial-data linked developed could not be used for commercial purposes.

Lee Johnston
Blacksburg, VA

'International RF Transmitters (a correction) -Repl'
1996\12\10@080714 by Mark Jurras

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Andy,

What can you use these transmitters for?

- -Mark

>>> Andrew Warren <EraseMEfastfwdspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTIX.NETCOM.COM> 9 December 1996  6:22 pm >>>
Dudes:

Of course, the comments I made about ensuring that your transmission
and encoding methods are FCC-legal is still true; you can't, for
instance, use these transmitters as wireless serial-data links, etc.

1996\12\10@113013 by BxM5%CTS%DCPP

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I WISH ONLY TO INFORM THE LIST OF A PIC CONTROLLED DEVICE THAT IS
SOLD COMMERCIALLY IN THE USA BY A COMPANY IN TEXAS THAT USES 433.92 MHZ
AS THEIR SERIAL DATA LINK.  THE UNIT IS IN MY POSSESSION AT MY PLACE
OF EMPLOYMENT.  IT IS USED TO MEASURE THE WEIGHT OF A LOAD ON THE HOOK
OF A LARGE CRANE.  IT IS CALLED A LOAD CELL.  THIS DEVICE TRANSMITS THE
DATA FROM THE LOAD CELL ON THE HOOK TO AN OBSERVER ON THE GROUND.  IT IS
A TWO WAY TRANSMISSION.  THE TRANSMITTER IS AVAILABLE IN TWO POWER LEVELS.
THE BASIC UNIT IS .1MW (ONE TENTH OF A MILLAWATT), THE LARGE MODEL IS 10 MW.
THESE UNITS ARE MADE IN ENGLAND BY RADIOMETRICS LTD.

WHETHER THEY ARE LEGAL OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW; BUT, THEY ARE BEING MARKETED
IN THE USA.



BILL MARTIN
KA7DXP
MARTIN ELECTRONICS
NIPOMO, CAL

1996\12\10@143957 by leon

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In message  <199612100718.BAA24383spamspam_OUTaudumla.students.wisc.edu>> @spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU writes:
> >Some time ago, I posted a message saying that low-power RF
> >transmitters intended for use in EC countries (like France) were
> >illegal for use here in the States.
> >
> >I've since discovered that I was wrong; the newest EC standards put
> >those transmitters at 433.92 MHz, and we in the States are now
> >allowed to use anything in the 290-450 MHz range.
>
> I would check first.   433.92 MHz is in the middle of the American 70 cm
> Amateur Radio band.  I'm sure these are legal in the US if you have a ham
> license, but probably not otherwise.

They operate within the UK amateur band also, but are legal here, which
causes problems when they are used for car security. Many car owners
have been somewhat niggled when they find that their new pride and joy
has been immobilised because an amateur repeater on 70 cms has swamped
the receiver.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM                | "Do not adjust your mind, there is
E-mail KILLspamleonKILLspamspamlfheller.demon.co.uk  |  a fault in reality": on a wall
Phone: +44 (0)118 9471424         |  many years ago in Oxford.

1996\12\10@154458 by fastfwd

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I wrote:

> you can't, for instance, use these transmitters as wireless
> serial-data links, etc.

and Mark Jurras <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> replied:

> What can you use these transmitters for?

Mark:

You can use them for sending "control" signals, which the FCC treats
very differently than "data" signals.

Control signals are sent when someone presses the "disarm" button on
his car-alarm transmitter, or activates his automatic garage-door
operator, or when the transmitter on the front door of his house
sends a periodic "the door's still closed" transmission to his home
security system.

Data signals involve things like wireless printer ports, cordless
telephones, continuously-updating telemetry from a sensor, etc.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - spamBeGonefastfwdspamBeGonespamix.netcom.com                 ===
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California          ===
===                                                       ===
=== Custodian of the PICLIST Fund -- For more info, see:  ===
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499/fund.html ===

1996\12\11@082725 by Shawn Ellis

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At 08:19 AM 12/10/96 PST, you wrote:
>I WISH ONLY TO INFORM THE LIST OF A PIC CONTROLLED DEVICE THAT IS
>SOLD COMMERCIALLY IN THE USA BY A COMPANY IN TEXAS THAT USES 433.92 MHZ
>AS THEIR SERIAL DATA LINK.  THE UNIT IS IN MY POSSESSION AT MY PLACE
>OF EMPLOYMENT.  IT IS USED TO MEASURE THE WEIGHT OF A LOAD ON THE HOOK
>OF A LARGE CRANE.  IT IS CALLED A LOAD CELL.  THIS DEVICE TRANSMITS THE
>DATA FROM THE LOAD CELL ON THE HOOK TO AN OBSERVER ON THE GROUND.  IT IS
>A TWO WAY TRANSMISSION.  THE TRANSMITTER IS AVAILABLE IN TWO POWER LEVELS.
>THE BASIC UNIT IS .1MW (ONE TENTH OF A MILLAWATT), THE LARGE MODEL IS 10 MW.
>THESE UNITS ARE MADE IN ENGLAND BY RADIOMETRICS LTD.
>
>WHETHER THEY ARE LEGAL OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW; BUT, THEY ARE BEING MARKETED
>IN THE USA.
>
THANK YOU, NOW TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER.

1996\12\11@171947 by Martin McCormick

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In message <TakeThisOuT199612100809.AAA26360EraseMEspamspam_OUTdfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>, Andrew Warren writes:
>Does the fact that the
>transmitters in question only transmit at VERY low power make any
>difference?

       Yes it does.  I don't have any of this in front of me, but the rules
regarding unlicensed devices have been relaxed somewhat over the last
couple of years.  These devices can only use a few milliwatts of transmitter
power and they are sort of at the bottom of the electronic food chain in that
they may not interfere with licensed radio services and the people who use
them can not complain when some amateur or commercial transmitter
clobbers their receiver or causes their device to malfunction in any way.

       They are called Part 15 Devices after the subsection of
government regulations controlling their use.  There are many frequencies
that are now available for Part 15 devices.  Some are in the amateur radio
bands and others are not.  I am not sure whether the 434 MHZ frequency is
one that Part 15 devices can use, but there is a little extra complication.

       In the Northern tear of the 48 contiguous United States, the 70
CM amateur band only extends from 440 to 450 MHZ because the 420-440 MHZ
range was needed to provide extra spectrum space for business and public
safety users in the high population area around the U.S/Canadian border.
In other words, your system might be perfectly all right anywhere but
this area which is about 200 Miles wide and runs from New York to Michigan
and maybe even further West.

       The amateur radio magazine "QST" has had many articles about this
area of the country.  You might search for the expression "Line A" since
that is what the line is called that defines this region.


Martin McCormick 405 744-7572   Stillwater, OK
OSU Center for Computing and Information services Data Communications Group


'Printed Circuit International Inc. PCIM 201-HP 2x1'
1997\10\21@112745 by Claudio Rachiele
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Hi guys,
I'm looking for data sheet  of LCD display in subject.
Myne is rev.F.
TIA & ciao

                      Claudio Rachiele IW0DZG


'International Time Standard: help'
1998\03\03@163459 by Craig Webb
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Dear fellow electronic artists,

Has anyone made a PIC circuit that reads the international time standard?
I've seen some clocks out there that do it inexpensively and need it for
circuit I'm deigning. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

C. Webb

1998\03\03@185346 by Amey Deosthali

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On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Craig Webb wrote:

> Dear fellow electronic artists,
>
> Has anyone made a PIC circuit that reads the international time standard?
> I've seen some clocks out there that do it inexpensively and need it for
> circuit I'm deigning. Any help would be much appreciated.

I am right now working on a PIC based project to decode a time signal
called WWVB, which is transmitted by NIST (National Institute of Science
and Technology) in the continental United States. The main problem is
ofcourse the signal reception.

Amey

1998\03\04@003922 by tjaart

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Craig Webb wrote:

> Dear fellow electronic artists,
>
> Has anyone made a PIC circuit that reads the international time standard?
> I've seen some clocks out there that do it inexpensively and need it for
> circuit I'm deigning. Any help would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> C. Webb

Hook it to a GPS receiver. You can get UTC with better than 100us.

<WHINE MODE ON>
Note that I called it a 'GPS receiver', and not a 'GPS'. It grates me to
shreds when people call the receiver 'a GPS'. It is not. The GPS is a
constellation of satellites, and there is not a snowball's hope in hell that
you can fit it into a box!

It is like talking about a LCD dislay...
<WHINE MODE OFF>

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
RemoveMEtjaartspamTakeThisOuTwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| WASP International http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html |
|       R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development    |
|   Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer  |
|    Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686 | Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973    |
|              WGS-84 : 26¡10.52'S 28¡06.19'E                 |
|_____________________________________________________________|

1998\03\04@084303 by wwl

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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:57:50 +0200, you wrote:

>Craig Webb wrote:
>
>> Dear fellow electronic artists,
>>
>> Has anyone made a PIC circuit that reads the international time standard?
>> I've seen some clocks out there that do it inexpensively and need it for
>> circuit I'm deigning. Any help would be much appreciated.
You can get ready-made receivers for the Rugby (UK) and DCF (Germany +
?europe?) time transmissions, of course this is only useful if you're
in range. Another (less accurate) alternative is to use RDS (radio
data system) in areas where this is transmitted on FM broadcasts.
GPS is probably the most universal, but the antenna needs a good view
of the sky, and is relatively expensive (compared to DCF etc., but
getting cheaper rapidly), and takes a relatively large amount of
power.
{Quote hidden}

.. or using 'video' as a noun.



    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / wwlEraseMEspam.....netcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1998\03\04@154129 by Robert McAtee

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I'm very curious. What the hey is WWVB?? I use WWV on 2.5, 5, 10, etc MHz
all the time but never heard of the "B". By the way the "Pocket Watch B"
module is great for time keeping thingy's. Mine only lost 6 seconds in 21
days. It will interface to most anything.... ..==Mac==

At 04:15 PM 3/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\03\04@163806 by Amey Deosthali

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> I've had thoughts about doing the same thing. If you would be willing to
> share your code, I'd be very grateful for a copy of it.
>
> I ran across a web page describing a home-built antenna for picking up the
> WWVB signal. Right now I'm on the road, but if this is something that would
> interest you, I'll pass it on when I get back to my home computer.

This is a project work.... no copyright stuff!!!! So I wouldn't mind
sharing code.... However I am still in the initial phase..... If you are
interested in looking at the code, I will send it to you.... Maybe you can
give some good suggestions.

I will certainly be interested in any antenna information for receiving
the signal. Right now I am trying to use a Radio Shack antenna to receive
the signal.... If you have any information on antennas, I will be grateful
to hear about it.... Hopefully then I will be able to receive signal in my
lab....

Amey

1998\03\04@164740 by Amey Deosthali

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> Amey,
> What kind of antenna are you using?  Full wave of 60Khz is something
> like 5000m?

I did not build any antenna of my own. I am trying to use the one which is
avalaible with the already existing clocks (like for example , the one
from Radio Shack.... they have a clock based on this signal.... also
Klockit has one based on WWVB signal....).

I think all of them use loop antennas to acheive such a big length

Amey

1998\03\04@183417 by )

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I should check this before I post, but I'm at work and the book I need
(ARRL Handbook) is ~20 miles away at home. I'm pretty sure that the 'B'
in WWVB stands for Boulder, as in Boulder, Colorado, where one of the
two WWV stations is located. The other one, which I have heard called
WWVH. Where 'H' stands for Hawaii.

BTW, I've been changed over to NT/Outlook. I would like to know if what
I send from Outlook causes anyone problems. So, if this post has a lot
of garbage attached to it (besides the stuff I wrote), my apologies in
advance.

-Frank

Frank Richterkessing
GE Appliances
EraseMEfrank.richterkessingspamappl.ge.com


> I'm very curious. What the hey is WWVB?? I use WWV on 2.5, 5, 10, etc
> MHz
> all the time but never heard of the "B". By the way the "Pocket Watch
> B"
> module is great for time keeping thingy's. Mine only lost 6 seconds in
> 21
> days. It will interface to most anything.... ..==Mac==
>
>

1998\03\04@190259 by Ross McKenzie

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At 06:28 PM 3/4/98 -0500, Frank Richterkessing wrote:
>BTW, I've been changed over to NT/Outlook. I would like to know if what
>I send from Outlook causes anyone problems. So, if this post has a lot
>of garbage attached to it (besides the stuff I wrote), my apologies in
>advance.
>

Frank,

All clear here Down Under.

Regards,

Ross McKenzie
Melbourne Australia

1998\03\04@190508 by Adi

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WWVB is on 60kHz and it's a time code only...


> I'm very curious. What the hey is WWVB?? I use WWV on 2.5, 5, 10, etc MHz
> all the time but never heard of the "B". By the way the "Pocket Watch B"
> module is great for time keeping thingy's. Mine only lost 6 seconds in 21
> days. It will interface to most anything.... ..==Mac==

1998\03\04@202336 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 06:28 PM 3/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I should check this before I post, but I'm at work and the book I need
>(ARRL Handbook) is ~20 miles away at home. I'm pretty sure that the 'B'
>in WWVB stands for Boulder, as in Boulder, Colorado, where one of the
>two WWV stations is located. The other one, which I have heard called
>WWVH. Where 'H' stands for Hawaii.

I'm pretty sure WWV is in Fort Collins, CO

Sean


+--------------------------------+
| Sean Breheny                   |
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM |
| Electrical Engineering Student |
+--------------------------------+
Fight injustice, please look at
http://homepages.enterprise.net/toolan/joanandrews/

Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
RemoveMEshb7EraseMEspamEraseMEcornell.edu
Phone(USA): (607) 253-0315

1998\03\04@202340 by Amey Deosthali

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On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Robert McAtee wrote:

> I'm very curious. What the hey is WWVB?? I use WWV on 2.5, 5, 10, etc MHz
> all the time but never heard of the "B". By the way the "Pocket Watch B"
> module is great for time keeping thingy's. Mine only lost 6 seconds in 21
> days. It will interface to most anything.... ..==Mac==

Ok... I don't know what WWVB stands for. In fact I think it is not an
acronym. Anyway, the WWVB signal is a low frequency signal transmitted on
60Khz, BCD coded time information only but no announcements...

Amey

1998\03\04@204844 by Rick Sherman

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WWVB is a 60KHz transmitter located in Boulder CO.

For more info check out:

http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/

Rick Sherman KM6TI

> I'm very curious. What the hey is WWVB?? I use WWV on 2.5, 5, 10, etc
> MHz
> all the time but never heard of the "B". By the way the "Pocket Watch
> B"
> module is great for time keeping thingy's. Mine only lost 6 seconds
in
> 21
> days. It will interface to most anything.... ..==Mac==
>
>

1998\03\04@205859 by Matt Calder

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       Yes, I think Sean is correct.

       Matt (from Ft Collins)

On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Sean Breheny wrote:

{Quote hidden}

/*****************************************/
/* Matt Calder, Dept. of Statistics, CSU */
/* http://www.stat.colostate.edu/~calder */
/*****************************************/

1998\03\05@104832 by John Shreffler

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I am running NT/Outlook, but I know that this msg is going
to have garbage, and I am about to get flamed.  Your msg
is clean.  What are your settings?

{Original Message removed}

1998\03\05@122919 by Christopher Debono

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Hi

I am designing a PIC 16c84 circiut to which is a system of clocks in a whole
building. All these PIC circuits are controlled and updated form a central
location (a pc). for now I am passing data via the rs232. Later on I will pass
data super imposed on the mains. But  unfortunately I still have bugs when
reading the data serially. For some strange reason, the PIC seems to stop after
the first bit. I tried simulating it with a simulus file and everything seems
ok.Does anyone of you have implemented an rs232 successfully (form pc to pic)?
By the way I am using RB0 as a receive pin. Initailly my idea was to generate
an interrupt when the start bit is detected but for some strange reason, this
did not work. The data baud rate required is 110 bits per second.


Hi

What do you mean exactly international time? I am designing a PIC circiut to
work as a system of clocks in a whole building. All these PIC circuits are
controlled and updated form a central location (a pc). for now I am passing
data via the rs232. Later on I will pass data super imposed on the mains. But

unfortunately I still have bugs when reading the data serially. Does anyone
of you have implemented an rs232 successfully (form pc to pic)? The data baud
rate required is 110 bits per second.

chris

1998\03\05@160342 by )

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Johns (you didn't "sign" your name) wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEjohnsTakeThisOuTspamspamavenuetech.com [SMTP:EraseMEjohnsspamspamspamBeGoneavenuetech.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 1998 10:18 AM
> To:   'pic microcontroller discussion list'
> Subject:      RE: International Time Standard: help
>
> I am running NT/Outlook, but I know that this msg is going
> to have garbage, and I am about to get flamed.  Your msg
> is clean.  What are your settings?
>
>
Being on a network with NT, I don't have much control over my PC
anymore. I looked through the settings (not being exactly sure where to
look). Trying to pick out applicable items: Under Tools/Options I have
under E-mail tab, I do not have Word as my E-mail editor (possible
source of problems?). Under Reading, I have Include and indent original
message text chosen for forwarding and replying (another option is to
Attach original message, possible problem cause?). Under Security,
everything is ghosted out, so I don't know how they set this up. I had
read some messages where others had mentioned a "digital signature" as
being the culprit. Any help?

Also, thanks to Ross Mckenzie for letting me know that I'm apparently
not p****ing people off by posting "binary garbage" in my messages.

-Frank

Frank Richterkessing
GE Appliances
RemoveMEfrank.richterkessingKILLspamspamappl.ge.com

1998\03\05@163940 by DREITEK

picon face
In a message dated 98-03-05 12:29:58 EST, you write:

<<
 I am designing a PIC 16c84 circiut to which is a system of clocks in a whole
building. All these PIC circuits are controlled and updated form a central
location (a pc). for now I am passing data via the rs232. Later on I will
pass
data super imposed on the mains. But  unfortunately I still have bugs when
reading the data serially. For some strange reason, the PIC seems to stop
after
the first bit. I tried simulating it with a simulus file and everything seems
ok.Does anyone of you have implemented an rs232 successfully (form pc to
pic)?
By the way I am using RB0 as a receive pin. Initailly my idea was to generate
an interrupt when the start bit is detected but for some strange reason, this
did not work. The data baud rate required is 110 bits per second.
 >>

Hello Chris,

I use RS232 and RS485 extensivly with the 16F84.  My RS232 routines are not
interupt driven though.  I have threatend to re-write them but for now they
are not.
Have you looked at the interupt mask bits?  You have to clear them in your
interupt routine in order get subsequent interupts.  A RETFIE instuction will
only clear the global interupt mask not the change on 'B' mask.  Only clear
the mask at the end of your interupt service routine, otherwise you might get
an interupt while you are in the interupt routine.  If this happens too often
you can run out of stack space and the program will go off into never never
land.  Also are you saving your registers at the begining of the interupt
routine and restoring the registers at the end of the routine?  If you were in
a routine that was computing a goto (for example) based on the contents of the
W reg., and you got interupted at that point,  you might not return from the
interupt routine with the correct contents of W causing your computed jump to
go into left field.

Hope this helps
Dave Duley

1998\03\05@205951 by Ross McKenzie

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At 03:54 PM 3/5/98 -0500, Frank Richterkessing wrote:

>Also, thanks to Ross Mckenzie for letting me know that I'm apparently
>not p****ing people off by posting "binary garbage" in my messages.
>
>-Frank
>
>Frank Richterkessing
>GE Appliances
>frank.richterkessingSTOPspamspamspam_OUTappl.ge.com
>

Errrr, Frank,

I don't remember using those words. Would be most unlike me <g>.

Regards,

Ross McKenzie
Melbourne Australia

1998\03\05@233454 by Morton Broadcasting

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At 10:18 AM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I am running NT/Outlook, but I know that this msg is going
>to have garbage, and I am about to get flamed.  Your msg
>is clean.  What are your settings?
>
>{Original Message removed}

1998\03\08@180232 by Jorge Ferreira

flavicon
face
       Hi Frank

At 18:28 98.03.04 -0500, you wrote:
>I should check this before I post, but I'm at work and the book I need
...[SNIP]
>BTW, I've been changed over to NT/Outlook. I would like to know if what
>I send from Outlook causes anyone problems. So, if this post has a lot
>of garbage attached to it (besides the stuff I wrote), my apologies in
...[SNIP]


       Don't worry, your mail has arrived clean of any kind of the so called
garbage at the end.


       Jorge f
===============================================================
cumprimentos / best regards
     Jorge Ferreira          //spamBeGonejorgegfSTOPspamspamEraseMEmail.telepac.pt
------ Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth -------
===============================================================

1998\03\09@132242 by Christopher Debono

flavicon
face
Thanks Dave

I managed to find the mistake in my RS232 routine. What I did is made a delay on
the PC between every byte. Every time a byte is received, the pic exits the ISR
and continues to work. When a new bit is detected, an interrupt occurs and it
reads the next byte.

Chris


'[ot] International Power'
1998\08\20@181404 by Harold Hallikainen
picon face
       I've got a customer asking us to use a two pole circuit breaker
to handle single phase loads on a 230VAC three phase Y (or star) system.
I would expect them to put the load between a line and neutral, with a
breaker only in the line side of the circuit (at least that's what we do
here in the US, but this is for Jordan).
       It APPEARS they want to use a two pole breaker with one pole
breaking the hot, the other the neutral.  Is this done?  Anyone in
Jordan?

Thanks!

Harold




Harold Hallikainen
KILLspamharoldspamBeGonespamhallikainen.com
Hallikainen & Friends, Inc.
See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed
in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm

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1998\08\20@184736 by mwalsh

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face
Harold Hallikainen wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Harold

We recently had some equipment re-checked by UL.  To get CE
compliance to export to Europe, we had to change the color coding
on the primary side from black, white, and green to blue, brown,
and green with a yellow tracer.  We also had to add a fuse to the
neutral side of the primary power.  We keep our UL and CSA
approval with this new color code and extra fuse.

This is medical equipment certified to IEC 601-1.  I don't know
if the additional fusing is needed for all types of equipment but
I suspect this sort of thing will become the defacto standard for
equipment that may be exported.

Mark

1998\08\21@002744 by g.daniel.invent.design

flavicon
face
Hi Harold,

if the nutral breaking contact fails, then apliance fails with all
circuitry at 230vac, makes it more dangerous to service.  remember that
amatures *will* fiddle.

regards,
Graham Daniel.

Harold Hallikainen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\08\21@021837 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
picon face
In message <spamBeGone19980820.151419.2791.0.HaroldHallikainenspamKILLspamjuno.com>, Harold
Hallikainen <.....haroldhallikainenspam_OUTspamJUNO.COM> writes
>        I've got a customer asking us to use a two pole circuit breaker
>to handle single phase loads on a 230VAC three phase Y (or star) system.
>I would expect them to put the load between a line and neutral, with a
>breaker only in the line side of the circuit (at least that's what we do
>here in the US, but this is for Jordan).
>        It APPEARS they want to use a two pole breaker with one pole
>breaking the hot, the other the neutral.  Is this done?  Anyone in
>Jordan?

I don't know about Jordon, but it's fairly common in the UK. Generally
light switches only switch the live conductor, and switched mains socket
only switch the live. But most seperate switches, for such things as
emmersion heaters, electric showers, storage heaters switch both live
and neutral.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : TakeThisOuTnigelg.....spamTakeThisOuTlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    |                                            |
       | England         |                                            |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1998\08\21@055608 by Paul BRITTON

flavicon
face
Some time back I worked for a telecomms test equipment manufacturer, and
they double fused (live & neutral) every thing *BUT* any thing that was
sold to British Telecom had to have the neutral fuse removed (and linked
directly)....something to do with making sure the equipment wasn't still
live if only the neutral fuse failed I think.

1998\08\21@071413 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
At 09:56 1998-08-21 +0000, you wrote:
>Some time back I worked for a telecomms test equipment manufacturer, and
>they double fused (live & neutral) every thing *BUT* any thing that was
>sold to British Telecom had to have the neutral fuse removed (and linked
>directly)....something to do with making sure the equipment wasn't still
>live if only the neutral fuse failed I think.
>

Yes, that is good for appliances that have guaranteed polarity.

But if it is not guaranteed, like if a rotatable contact is used, or the
standard don't specify which is live, or an amateur connect a wire wrong,
then it might be the supposed neutral that is live.  And in that case it is
good to have a fuse and breaker there, in case of short to chassis...

/Morgan

/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  TakeThisOuTmrtKILLspamspamspaminame.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\08\21@083316 by cousens

flavicon
face
Harold Hallikainen wrote:
>
>         I've got a customer asking us to use a two pole circuit breaker
> to handle single phase loads on a 230VAC three phase Y (or star) system.


On a live/neutral system
In the US and UK  99.9% of the time you can be sure that live IS live
and neutral IS nuetral

However ...........  in less developed countrys ?
there are not always colour standards
(expecially where they also import German equipment they use/used black
for live)
So live / neutral reversal is commom (If it works why change it)

On a three phase system

ie: An unsecured three phase cable suppling your machine and an ajacent
machine
gets pulled, the neutral gets disconected (Did you really think they
would run a cable just for your machine ?)


ie: At a distribution box (one of many on the customers site)
that was intended to supply 50 Amps, now running at 120A
(and it's 80c in the box, it's could easily be 45c in the factory in the
summer)
The cable supplying power to the box, which has not been screwed down
properly
or has worked loose due to thermal cycling,  one phase starts sparking,
burns the insulation, flashes over to the neutral, destroys that phase
and neutral wire, before burning the 125 Amp fuse that should have been
a
50 Amp fuse

I see this type of damage regulary

Fit a two pole switch

Peter Cousens
email: .....cousensspamRemoveMEher.forthnet.gr  phone: + 3081 380534
snailmail:  Folia, Agia Fotini, Karteros, Heraklion  Crete, Greece.

1998\08\21@090034 by paulb

flavicon
face
Nigel Goodwin wrote:

> in the UK.  Generally light switches only switch the live conductor,
> and switched mains socket only switch the live.  But most seperate
> switches, for such things as immersion heaters, electric showers,
> storage heaters switch both live and neutral.

 The philosophy behind this hinges on the likelihood of wiring
modifications being made and service being performed using only the
local switch for isolation.  "Fixed" wiring is expected to have active
(live if you like) and neutral irrevocably defined, and the neutral is
known to be bonded to ground, so only the active need be isolated.

 Once the appliance has a flexible cord connecting it to an outlet (or
even a wiring box), there«s a chance that the cord will be damaged and
rewired, possibly by an unqualified person.  Without the guarantee of
which wire is which, you must isolate both.  The same applies to circuit
breakers and it is very reasonable of them to isolate both lines if
tripped.

 Neutral fuses are in much the same situation.  If there is any chance
the supply polarity be reversed, then the neutral fuse becomes the
active fuse and will be blown if a short to ground occurs.  Because this
is at that time effectively the active fuse, the situation is safe.  It
may become unsafe when moved out of the fault location for service but
well, if you are testing something with a blown fuse you don«t just plug
it in and turn it on.  *Do* you?

 By the way, a little commonsense here suggests the active fuse be
rated between 70% and 50% of the neutral, so it blows preferentially for
internal overload while the neutral *only* blows for a ground short.  (I
say *commonsense*; the standards may say different for all I know!)
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\08\21@092740 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Graham Daniel wrote:

> Hi Harold,
>
> if the nutral breaking contact fails, then apliance fails with all
> circuitry at 230vac, makes it more dangerous to service.  remember that
> amatures *will* fiddle.

You are right, but the neutral fuse is a fire protection measure in case
current from somewhere else comes through the apparatus (such as,
lightning). The GFCI in the panel, which is mandatory. takes care of the
situation that you describe.  The new CE rules require the fuse on neutral
apparently. BTW GFCIs used here and in Europe are DPDTs, and break the
neutral too according to the hieroglyph on the one near me here.

Peter

1998\08\21@093531 by Caisson

flavicon
face
> Van: Paul BRITTON <RemoveMEPaul.BRITTONspamspamBeGoneMMSUK.CO.UK>
> Aan: spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: Re: [ot] International Power
> Datum: vrijdag 21 augustus 1998 11:56
>
> Some time back I worked for a telecomms test equipment manufacturer, and
> they double fused (live & neutral) every thing *BUT* any thing that was
> sold to British Telecom had to have the neutral fuse removed (and linked
> directly)....something to do with making sure the equipment wasn't still
> live if only the neutral fuse failed I think.

It's an error punishable by death (electricity does not forgive mistakes)
to switch the ground-line only (by single-phase switch or fuse).  Only when
the Phase(s) is(are) disconnected a Nutral-line could (but mostly should
not) be disconnected.

Nothing is as dangerous as a device that apears to be off, but is connected
to the life-wire everywhere.  Here (in the netherlands) it's illegal also
to switch the nutral-line other than together with the life-wire.

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

1998\08\21@095157 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:24:48 +1200 Graham Daniel
<TakeThisOuTg.daniel.invent.designspamspamxtra.co.nz> writes:
>Hi Harold,
>
>if the nutral breaking contact fails, then apliance fails with all
>circuitry at 230vac, makes it more dangerous to service.  remember
>that
>amatures *will* fiddle.

Hopefully even amateurs will know enough to turn the breaker *off* before
fiddling.  In that case, the line contact will open too and the circuitry
will be safe.  Using a two-pole breaker makes it much safer with the
breaker off in the more likely event that the line and neutral wires have
been exchanged somewhere on the way into the equipment.

Of course you need to go by the locak country's requirements for anything
that's exported.  For what it's worth, a two-pole switch is used on PC
power supplies sold worldwide.



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1998\08\21@121058 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
       So, the consensus seems to be that new CE regulations REQUIRE a
circuit breaker switch both the hot and neutral?  The product here is a
12 channel, 20 amp per channel light dimmer run off a three phase Y.  Our
design (which is standard in the US) distributes the incoming three
phases each to four circuit breakers.  These breakers then drive chokes
and solid state relays, which then drive the load.  Loads are connected
between an output terminal block (driven by the SSR) and a "neutral bar"
that ties all the load neutrals to the incoming line neutral.
       As long as the neutral is indeed near ground, this appears safe.
However, this bid request from Jordan is specifying two pole breakers.
I'm thinking we need to replace all the breakers with two pole breakers,
distribute the neutral to each breaker, then have a neutral and hot pair
for each load on the terminal block.  Our main problem seems to be
finding the two pole breakers that will fit where the existing single
pole breakers fit.
       I realize this is considerably off topic, but this is the only
list I'm on devoted to design and with such an international audience.
It's great!
       On another international topic, several of my PIC designs are
powered by 12VDC, 500mA "wall warts" with a 2.1mm center positive DC
plug.  We get calls from dealers wanting a 230VAC 50Hz input wall wart.
We can get them, but it VERY unlikely that they will fit the wall outlet
in the country the user is in.  What are the rest of you doing?  I'd sure
like to have a US supplier that I can call up and say "I need a 12VDC,
500mA, 2.1mm, center positive wall wart for Nigeria" and they'd send me
the right thing...

Thanks!

Harold




Harold Hallikainen
haroldEraseMEspamhallikainen.com
Hallikainen & Friends, Inc.
See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed
in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm


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1998\08\21@130857 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Harold Hallikainen wrote:

>         So, the consensus seems to be that new CE regulations REQUIRE a
> circuit breaker switch both the hot and neutral?  The product here is a

I think that there is a loophole in the regulations for the case where you
also have a 'main' fuse for a number of circuits. In this case, the 'main'
fuse must be a DPDT breaker and the individual circuit fuses can be
singles only. I think that there is a limit on the Amps on the 'main' vs.
the Amps on each circuit for this. I have seen a lot of systems done like
this and having CE stamps on them. As I said, the neutral fuse is for fire
protection mainly, in fixed installations.

> and solid state relays, which then drive the load.  Loads are connected
> between an output terminal block (driven by the SSR) and a "neutral bar"
> that ties all the load neutrals to the incoming line neutral.

imho, you should take a good look at the design to find out what can
happen to it if it is connected to a delta supply instead of Y (or Y with
missing ground). This kind of thing happens often in 3rd world countries
as local electricians determine the null and the earth on the spot (no
schematics ;( ) and the neutral and earth can be reversed. Also don't
count on the phase order being right, if you need that ;( ;(.

> finding the two pole breakers that will fit where the existing single
> pole breakers fit.

imho, take a look at Euro suppliers (Siemens ?). I think that there is a
rail-mount breaker design that has the 2 pole pairs stepped to fit in the
same width (looks like: OX[ C ]XO where O-O is the 1st pole, X-X the 2nd,
[] are the edges of the top and C is the breaker reset flap). I think it's
by Siemens. Not sure.

>         I realize this is considerably off topic, but this is the only
> list I'm on devoted to design and with such an international audience.
> It's great!

Usenet newsgroups are probably a better address for this questions, as
some real experts from the standards institutions proper occasionally read
in and answer questions...

>         On another international topic, several of my PIC designs are
> powered by 12VDC, 500mA "wall warts" with a 2.1mm center positive DC
> plug.  We get calls from dealers wanting a 230VAC 50Hz input wall wart.
...

Well, there is a booming business in replacement wall warts here. Some can
be fitted with an adapter, but most are thrown and changed for a local
one. Some firms go as far as to deliver units without wall warts and have
a local firm franchised to sell wall warts separately for their product.
For better products, workers replace the wall warts and fit local ones.

I have seen so many blunders on the part of overseas shippers of equipment
that we usually plan for a local supply just in case. In general, web
catalogs cannot be trusted unless they give an engineering drawing with
physical dimensions. The best way is to obtain a sample of the
target animal and use calipers.

hope this helps,

Peter

1998\08\21@135629 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
>        I've got a customer asking us to use a two pole circuit breaker
>to handle single phase loads on a 230VAC three phase Y (or star) system.
>I would expect them to put the load between a line and neutral, with a
>breaker only in the line side of the circuit (at least that's what we do
>here in the US, but this is for Jordan).
>        It APPEARS they want to use a two pole breaker with one pole
>breaking the hot, the other the neutral.  Is this done?  Anyone in
>Jordan?

I'm not in Jordan, but I've seen this often in european equipment, as well
as some DEC AC power distribution boxes..  As far as I know, this is
completely legal.  The neutral wire is longer a neutral after the breaker
and must NOT be the same colour as the neutral.  It is simply regarded as a
line conductor after the breaker.

In general, a neutral conductor can never be opened.  Once a peice of
equipment allows a neutral to be opened, it is no longer a neutral conductor
past that point.

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <RemoveMEdwaynerEraseMEspamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(403) 489-3199 voice     (403) 487-6397 fax

1998\08\21@202715 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Interestingly, I believe this is illegal in NZ where only the phase
(live) may be switched (but I may be wrong).

{Original Message removed}

1998\08\22@025628 by Ray Gardiner

flavicon
face
>  Once the appliance has a flexible cord connecting it to an outlet (or
>even a wiring box), there4s a chance that the cord will be damaged and
>rewired, possibly by an unqualified person.  Without the guarantee of
>which wire is which, you must isolate both.  The same applies to circuit
>breakers and it is very reasonable of them to isolate both lines if
>tripped.

A few years back, the following situation occurred at our local college.

A power point was wired with active/neutral reversed at the power point.
Several years passed and no-one ever noticed it.

Until, someone plugged in a IEC power cable with neutral/ground reversed,
this was a pre-assembled cable (moulded connections both ends) that had been
in use (elsewhere) for a number of years.

Put the two together and *BLAM* the path to ground was through his
video monitor. The monitor caught fire, (well, kind of smoked a lot).
Totally destroyed the guy's motherboard.


       A ----+\/----->N>-------------->N>-------> Monitor A
       N ----+/\----->A>------\/------>E>-------> Monitor N
       E ------------>E>------/\------>A>-------> Monitor E

     SBoard         Plug    IEC cable    Computer  Monitor

The danger in this type of fault, is that either can lie dormant for years
and it is not until the two faults are combined that a lethal situation
results.


>  By the way, a little commonsense here suggests the active fuse be
>rated between 70% and 50% of the neutral, so it blows preferentially for
>internal overload while the neutral *only* blows for a ground short.  (I
>say *commonsense*; the standards may say different for all I know!)
>--

I see problems here if active/neutral were reversed then this scheme would
create a potentially lethal hazard. For this reason, I think RCD(*) protection
is a safer solution. AND always check all cables and power points.

This is perhaps a good argument to get rid of ground connections completely
and remove the distinction between active/neutral. If there is no path
to ground then you be a lot safer than our current system.

(*) RCD = Residual Current Detection, what you do is compare the current
in Neutral and Active and if there is an imbalance then the circuit breaker
trips. There is a time/current curve for this tripping action, but it is
in the order of a few mA for a few ms.  IE 30ma imbalance for 50ms would trip.

---------------------------
Ray Gardiner @spam@rayRemoveMEspamEraseMEhdc.com.au

'[ot] International Power - BOLLOCKS - dangerous'
1998\08\22@034936 by Mike Massen

flavicon
face
At 04:28 PM 22/8/98 +1000, you wrote:

>I see problems here if active/neutral were reversed then this scheme would
>create a potentially lethal hazard. For this reason, I think RCD(*)
protection
>is a safer solution. AND always check all cables and power points.

No - your logic is a bit mixed up here, there won't be a lethal hazard
since the fuse box fuse will blow (I believe Ground and Neutral are
tied together at the pole where power first enters the house since
distribution is via 3-phase delta.
A proper ground connection on an appliance with metal case (ah lah PC etc)
WILL protect you by blowing the fuse and its even better if you have an
Earth Leakage unit at the fuse box as well.

>This is perhaps a good argument to get rid of ground connections completely
>and remove the distinction between active/neutral. If there is no path
>to ground then you be a lot safer than our current system.

BOLLOCKS ! ! !

Eh ? - I'd rather have a current to ground (proper cable connection)
then the power deciding to go to ground through my son !

Don't forget power will find a path - the least impedance whenever it
can - you CANNOT remove the distinction between active/neutral.

Its like working on a car which is -ve ground and trying to say - lets
make the chassis isolated and run extra -ve leads all over the place,
despite the increased cost its just not that practical given most
vehicles have a metal chassis - for plastic chassis cars you have nice big
earth straps under the chassis...

For AC mains supply:-
It would seem to me a cost effective and safe system is the 3 core standard
we have in Australia, Active, Neutral AND Ground WITH Earth leakage
protection AND all appliances having double pole switches AND fuses on
active and neutral.

Suggesting we do away with the ground conductor is just plain foolish,
your logic is a bit skewed and potentially dangerous !

- or is this some other joke I'm about to fall into {again} ?


Rgds ~`:o)

Mike Massen
Trading as "Network Power Systems"
Perth, Western Australia
Ph/Fx +61 8 9444 8961
Products/Personal/Client web area at http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus
(Current feature - trip to Malaysia to install equipment in jungle power
site)

Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes
academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that
theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic.

1998\08\22@072956 by paulb

flavicon
face
Mike Massen wrote:

>>This is perhaps a good argument to get rid of ground connections
>> completely and remove the distinction between active/neutral.  If
>> there is no path to ground then you be a lot safer than our current
>> system.

> Eh ? - I'd rather have a current to ground (proper cable connection)
> then the power deciding to go to ground through my son !

 Actually Mike, he was describing a system which we use *extensively*
here, although it was perhaps popularised first in Europe.  It«s called
"Double Insulated".

> It would seem to me a cost effective and safe system is the 3 core
> standard we have in Australia, Active, Neutral AND Ground WITH Earth
> leakage protection

 I should mention here, having noted various comments along this
theme, that the RCD (Earth Leakage) protection *only* applies to
domestic installations.  It is *not* a requirement for commercial
premises such as my office!  (Consequently, I take things in to the
office for testing!)

> AND all appliances having double pole switches AND fuses on active and
> neutral.

 I«ve seen very few of these!  *Very* few.  But then, unlike GB, very
few appliances are fused at all.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\08\23@073009 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
picon face
In message <EraseME35DEA73B.7A6Aspam@spam@midcoast.com.au>, Paul B. Webster
<@spam@paulbspam_OUTspam.....MIDCOAST.COM.AU> writes
>> AND all appliances having double pole switches AND fuses on active and
>> neutral.
>
>  I4ve seen very few of these!  *Very* few.  But then, unlike GB, very
>few appliances are fused at all.

Well, as someone who repairs electrical equipment in the UK, I can
confirm that all UK TV's have double pole switches. However, this
doesn't apply to everything, for instance some vacuum cleaners use
single pole switches, some use double, sometimes different production
runs of the same cleaner use different switches.

As for fuses, the UK plugs do include a fuse, and I've yet to see a
better or safer plug for mains connection. I don't recall ever seeing a
piece of domestic electrical equipment with a fuse in the neutral line,
they seem to just fuse the live.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : spamBeGonenigelgEraseMEspamlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    |                                            |
       | England         |                                            |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1998\08\24@035643 by Ray Gardiner

flavicon
face
>>> Ray Gardiner wrote:
>>> This is perhaps a good argument to get rid of ground connections
>>> completely and remove the distinction between active/neutral.  If
>>> there is no path to ground then you be a lot safer than our current
>>> system.
>>
>> Mike Massen wrote:
>> Eh ? - I'd rather have a current to ground (proper cable connection)
>> then the power deciding to go to ground through my son !
>
>Paul B. Webster wrote:
>Actually Mike, he was describing a system which we use *extensively*
>here, although it was perhaps popularised first in Europe.  It4s called
>"Double Insulated".

I notice that, on a recently purchased fan heater, (German Made) that
they even go to the trouble of actually removing the ground pin from
the 3 pin plug.

This trend toward double insulated with no ground connection seems to be
getting more popular (in Australia at least)

Is it the same in UK? USA?

---------------------------
Ray Gardiner rayspamBeGonespamhdc.com.au

1998\08\24@040719 by White Horse Design

flavicon
face
At 17:44 24/08/98 +1000, you wrote:
>I notice that, on a recently purchased fan heater, (German Made) that
>they even go to the trouble of actually removing the ground pin from
>the 3 pin plug.
>
>This trend toward double insulated with no ground connection seems to be
>getting more popular (in Australia at least)
>
>Is it the same in UK? USA?

In the UK the live and neutral pins are protected by a shutter that is
raised when the longer ground pin is inserted. Therefore a ground pin,
whether it's connected to anything or not, is required for standard 13A
sockets.

Regards

Adrian
---
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WWW WW WWW   White Horse Design
WWWWWWWWWW   +44-385-970009 (Mobile/SMS), +44-118-962-8913/4 (voice/fax)
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---
Developers of GPS satellite-based tracking systems for vehicles/helicopters

1998\08\24@052643 by

flavicon
face
> >I notice that, on a recently purchased fan heater, (German Made) that
> >they even go to the trouble of actually removing the ground pin from
> >the 3 pin plug.
> >
> >This trend toward double insulated with no ground connection seems to be
> >getting more popular (in Australia at least)
> >
> >Is it the same in UK? USA?
>
> In the UK the live and neutral pins are protected by a shutter that is
> raised when the longer ground pin is inserted. Therefore a ground pin,
> whether it's connected to anything or not, is required for standard 13A
> sockets.
>
>
Although most of the wall warts and many double insulated appliances only
have a plastic "earth" pin on the moulded plugs.

Mike Rigby-Jones
.....mrjones@spam@spamEraseMEnortel.co.uk

1998\08\24@073746 by paulb

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face
Adrian (White Horse Design) wrote:

> In the UK the live and neutral pins are protected by a shutter that is
> raised when the longer ground pin is inserted.

 Such shuttered outlets are available here and have been more and less
popular at various times, especially for unswitched outlets.  Some
indeed have had an interlock with the switch which springs off when the
plug is withdrawn, though this was a long time back (i.e., I was quite
young, but that would be another story).

 The main reason *against* shuttered outlets is unreliability.

> Therefore a ground pin, whether it's connected to anything or not, is
> required for standard 13A sockets.

 Yes, I«ve seen the plugs used for UK double-insulated appliances,
particularly plug-packs or in US parlance, "wall warts", with the
*plastic* ground pin.  Some also have the base of the live and neutral
pins moulded in plastic, like some "euro" plugs.

 To accomodate double-insulated appliances here, the shutter opens by
insertion of either earth or neutral pin.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\08\24@083852 by wwl

picon face
>
>This trend toward double insulated with no ground connection seems to be
>getting more popular (in Australia at least)
>
>Is it the same in UK?
Yes - it's quite unusual to see domestic appliances with earths these
days. IT equipment tends to still have them, presumably due to the use
of switchmode supplies, needing earthed input filters.
    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / .....wwlRemoveMEspamnetcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1998\08\24@103256 by lilel

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face
Harold Wrote:

>         So, the consensus seems to be that new CE regulations
>         REQUIRE a
> circuit breaker switch both the hot and neutral?  The product here


I would be very surprised if this is the case.

> However, this bid request from Jordan is specifying two pole
> breakers. I'm thinking we need to replace all the breakers with two
> pole breakers,

At least in the US, "Two pole breaker"  Indicates a breaker with two
switches, EACH connected to the HOT side of two different phases, and
the COLD side always connected to Neutral.

We also have many headaches determining power and outlet requirements
for various countries.  There is a company that specializes in
oddball plugs.  They are Panel Components Inc.  1-800-662-2290 or
(515) 673-5000  They have a cool chart in their catalog  and lots of
technical data on universal plugs and international cordsets.


BTW Harold, did you really originate the quote in my signature line?



-- Lawrence Lile

    "The ideal design has zero parts"  -
           (attributed to Harold Hallikainen)

Download AutoCad blocks for electrical drafting at:
http://home1.gte.net/llile/index.htm

1998\08\24@121124 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:30:07 +0000 Lawrence Lile <.....lilelSTOPspamspam@spam@toastmaster.com>
writes:

>We also have many headaches determining power and outlet requirements
>for various countries.  There is a company that specializes in
>oddball plugs.  They are Panel Components Inc.  1-800-662-2290 or
>(515) 673-5000  They have a cool chart in their catalog  and lots of
>technical data on universal plugs and international cordsets.
>

       Yes, I've got a bookmark set to that page of their website.  The
chard doesn't tell us anything about hots, neutrals, grounding, etc., but
it's certainly a start!  Their chart is derived from a booklet from the
Department of Commerce that I also have buried here somewhere.  I haven't
seen it in a while, so it may be lost.  It had a blue cover (that should
help find it!).
       I also previously mentioned on the list that it'd be great to
find a wall wart supplier that could send me the right thing if I request
a 12VDC, 500mA, 2.1mm coaxial connector, center positive, for use in
Nigeria.  As someone else pointed out, we can ship external universal
input desk top supplies with IEC 320 (I think that's the number)
connectors for power input.  The customer can just buy a local power cord
or put a plug on the US one we send.  These are quite a bit more
expensive than wall warts, though.


>
>BTW Harold, did you really originate the quote in my signature line?
>

       I never heard it from anyone else!  Thanks for including it!  I
came up with that when I taught electronics at Cuesta College, here in
San Luis Obispo, CA.  Students would come to me with these projects that
appeared to have been designed using "brute force engineering" where you
keep throwing parts at it until it works.  I always TRY to approach my
ideal design of zero parts.
       I've heard the story of a guy named Muntz who manufactured TV's
and stereos in the 1950's (Muntz Stereo, etc.).  His TV's were designed
to work in the cities while the more expensive brands worked in the more
rural areas where signals were not as strong.  As a result, he sold lots
of inexpensive TV's.  Anyway, the story goes that he would visit his
engineers working on a new design.  He'd start cutting parts out of the
circuit until it stopped working, then he'd put that one back.  The
process became known as "Muntzing the circuit."



>
>
>-- Lawrence Lile
>
>     "The ideal design has zero parts"  -
>            (attributed to Harold Hallikainen)
>



Harold



Harold Hallikainen
haroldEraseMEspam@spam@hallikainen.com
Hallikainen & Friends, Inc.
See the FCC Rules at http://hallikainen.com/FccRules and comments filed
in LPFM proceeding at http://hallikainen.com/lpfm

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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

1998\08\24@144251 by White Horse Design

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At 09:12 24/08/98 +0100, you wrote:
>> >I notice that, on a recently purchased fan heater, (German Made) that
>> >they even go to the trouble of actually removing the ground pin from
>> >the 3 pin plug.
>> >
>> >This trend toward double insulated with no ground connection seems to be
>> >getting more popular (in Australia at least)
>> >
>> >Is it the same in UK? USA?
>>
>> In the UK the live and neutral pins are protected by a shutter that is
>> raised when the longer ground pin is inserted. Therefore a ground pin,
>> whether it's connected to anything or not, is required for standard 13A
>> sockets.
>>
>>
>Although most of the wall warts and many double insulated appliances only
>have a plastic "earth" pin on the moulded plugs.

Yes indeed, I omitted to mention that.

>Mike Rigby-Jones
>RemoveMEmrjonesspamspamBeGonenortel.co.uk

Since we're OT on this message anyway, may I ask whether Nortel really use
PIC's?!!

Regards

Adrian
---
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WWW WW WWW   White Horse Design
WWWWWWWWWW   +44-385-970009 (Mobile/SMS), +44-118-962-8913/4 (voice/fax)
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---
Developers of GPS satellite-based tracking systems for vehicles/helicopters

1998\08\24@172601 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
picon face
In message <35e532a7.1519976spam_OUTspam@spam@smtp.netcomuk.co.uk>, Mike Harrison
<spamBeGonewwl@spam@spamNETCOMUK.CO.UK> writes
>>
>>This trend toward double insulated with no ground connection seems to be
>>getting more popular (in Australia at least)
>>
>>Is it the same in UK?
>Yes - it's quite unusual to see domestic appliances with earths these
>days. IT equipment tends to still have them, presumably due to the use
>of switchmode supplies, needing earthed input filters.

Don't know about that as a reason, all TV's have used switch-mode PSU's
for many years, and almost all TV's have 2 core mains leads (some Sony
TV's use 3 core!).

Also 'domestic appliance' refers more to white goods (washers, fridges
etc), rather than brown goods (TV's, video's etc). Most white goods
still have 3 core leads, presumably as they often have metal casings,
and tend to get used in a damp environment.

I suspect IT gear tends to be earthed as it usually has metal casings,
and in order to reduce interference radiated from the high speed digital
circuitry used. Quite a few domestic brown good (VCR's, Satellite's,
Audio etc.) often have metal casings, but only a 2 core lead fitted. I'm
sure many of the list members have built audio amplifiers in the past,
how on earth (no pun intended) do you prevent mains hum problems without
an earth? - only one, no earth loops :-).
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : RemoveMEnigelgEraseMEspamKILLspamlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    |                                            |
       | England         |                                            |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1998\08\24@181310 by Dennis Plunkett

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face
At 05:44 PM 24/08/98 +1000, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yes and no, actually, it just saves money! Before the laws where relaxed in
Australia, a manufacturer had to supply a three pin plug (Including ground)
even if the equipment was double insulated.

Dennis

1998\08\24@190625 by Mark Willis

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face
Dennis Plunkett wrote:
{Quote hidden}

 I've repaired a few old drills in my time;  I see double insulation as
dangerous, as if you have yourself grounded & the "Hot" brush gets old &
worn, & catches & is thrown out of the plastic case that's been cracked
& duct taped back together & then cracked again, you could end up being
grounded with a 117VAC brush stuck in your hand.  (This would hurt even
if the brush was "just" the neutral brush!)  Not really repairable at
that point.

 The drill I saw was a grounded machine, user's complaint was that
sparks had come out & the drill had stopped working (when the brush
spot-welded it's wire lead (IIRC) to the metal, grounded case.)  Been 20
years, but I remember being glad nobody was hurt.

 No electrocution problems with a metal, grounded-case power tool
(drills aren't alone in brush wear.)  It's a Lives for Dollars
trade-off, the only way to win this one is to throw old,
double-insulated power tools out before they get too worn out.  (Rebuild
only grounded tools after a certain point.)

 Grounding is a good thing, so long as technicians are only connected
to it through a 1 Meg resistor most of the time <G>

 Mark Willis, mwillisspam@spam@nwlink.com

1998\08\24@204819 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

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face
On Mon, Aug 24, 1998 at 04:01:46PM -0700, Mark Willis wrote:

>   No electrocution problems with a metal, grounded-case power tool

That's not actually true. Consider this scenario; a grounded case drill
develops an open circuit in the earth lead, since the drill still works
no-one notices, then a short develops between the active brush and
the case of the drill. The user picks up the drill, pulls the trigger,
and ZAP! The full-hand, firm grasp on the case guarantees a low-resistance
path, so the consequences are likely to be fatal, especially as the other
hand is likely to be grasping the work.

At least with a double-insulated drill there has to be physical penetration
of the drill case before a similar event can occur.

I know that there is more motivation to manufacturers to use double-insulation
that just safety, but on balance I'm satisfied that double-insulated devices are
at least as safe as grounded case equivalents.

> trade-off, the only way to win this one is to throw old,
> double-insulated power tools out before they get too worn out.  (Rebuild

Agreed, but the power cords of grounded tools are often neglected, and this is t
heir
weak point. Use an earth leakage breaker at all times!

Cheers, Clyde

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs               |            HI-TECH Software
Email: EraseMEclydeRemoveMEspamSTOPspamhtsoft.com          |          Phone            Fax
WWW:   http://www.htsoft.com/    | USA: (408) 490 2885  (408) 490 2885
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI-TECH C: compiling the real world.

1998\08\25@051857 by cousens

flavicon
face
Mark Willis wrote:
snip
>   No electrocution problems with a metal, grounded-case power tool
> (drills aren't alone in brush wear.)  It's a Lives for Dollars
> trade-off, the only way to win this one is to throw old,
> double-insulated power tools out before they get too worn out.  (Rebuild
> only grounded tools after a certain point.)
>
>   Grounding is a good thing, so long as technicians are only connected
> to it through a 1 Meg resistor most of the time <G>

"Grounding is a good thing, so long as technicians are only connected
to it through a 1 Meg resistor most of the time "
But how is this possible when you're holding a metal cased drill.

The point of double insulation is that you, the operator, are insulated
from
the equipment and not grounded via a zero ohm resistor

Tell me how many times have you repaired broken mains leads due to
constant
flexing?  one in three it will be the earth wire that breaks first, but
will not be discovered untill one of the other wires break !
During this time your worn brush could kill.

--
Peter Cousens
email: spamBeGonecousensspam@spam@her.forthnet.gr  phone: + 3081 380534
snailmail:  Folia, Agia Fotini, Karteros, Heraklion  Crete, Greece.

'[ot] International Power - Bull Hockey'
1998\08\25@103757 by lilel

flavicon
face
Mark Willis said:
>   No electrocution problems with a metal, grounded-case power tool
> (drills aren't alone in brush wear.)

Bull-Hockey (or Bollocks, if you speak British or Australian).

Before the law required GFCI's on construction sites,
I was nearly killed by a metal, grounded case drill.  Some idiot
pulled the ground pin off the drill.  I was laying on my back, in the
mud, drilling up into a floor joist.  The drill shorted to the case
internally.  I recieved a nearly heart stopping shock.  I
have a good friend that died the same way.  Grounded case tools are
the cause of many deaths. In most older buildings, the ground is
nonexistent or poorly connected.    Many people intentionally cut
off the ground pin when it won't fit in a socket.  You guys have it
backwards.

> It's a Lives for Dollars
> trade-off,

No doubt.


The straight dope on this subject is, in the US, Underwriters
Laboratories requires double insulated nonconductive case  power
tools. There are some exceptions for gearboxes that are not
electrical enclosures.  This all changed some years ago. That's why
those old metal case power tools are still around.   UL requires a
grounding plug on washers, dishwashers, and other appliances which
involve water.  UL requires only a two pole plug on toasters, toaster
ovens, and many other appliances.  UL requires a single pole switch
on most appliances, but a two pole switch on toasters, as these have
exposed heating elements.

Europe requires grounded plugs on all appliances.  They require two
pole switches on toasters, single pole switches on many other items.
UL, CSA, and EIC rules are essentially laws.  Arguing about which is
better is a nice academic exercise, but unless you convince UL, the
rule is the rule.

-- Lawrence Lile

    "The ideal design has zero parts"  -
           (attributed to Harold Hallikainen)

Download AutoCad blocks for electrical drafting at:
http://home1.gte.net/llile/index.htm


'[MIGUEL] INTERNATIONAL CONNECTION - PIC17C756 in a'
1999\08\07@125713 by wf
flavicon
face
       Hi PICmaniacs,

       I'm doing this moment a test with my PIC17C756 that is connected to a
MODEM!

       Is it possible, someone that have a TERMINAL EMULATOR to try a connectio
n
to

       +55 47 3233598,,,,,32,

       that's is my telephone test?  (32 is a EXT of our telephonic machine and
,,,,, is a pause, because the telephonic machine asks the ext to connect
(to talk)...

       After the connection, the PIC17C756 must send you many messages for you
in
PORTUGUESE :(, then you type MENU and ENTER...

       I want to see if the connection works great and if you receive messages!
Please, capture and resend by e-mail!

       Please, only today, Saturday, 8/7/1999

       Miguel Wisintainer


'[OT] International Rectifier web pages DOA, need d'
1999\10\30@204508 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
Hi, all;  I need to drive some kind of FET or HexFET off a PIC chip, but
the IR web page is DOA (http://www.irf.com/ doesn't resolve,
http://216.240.128.185/ seems so slow it's silly - but does at least
load part-way, just never finishes loading.)  Until they fix this, I
cannot easily get the .pdf files <G>  I don't claim to be the world
expert on analog, but it makes it tough

Reply-To's set off-list.

What I need's to switch a little motor (5V or 12V, < 150mA either way),
on/off with some hysteresis, whether in the PIC or the FET I'll find
out.  Probably want an N-channel FET, I can use RA4 and a pullup to +9V
here pretty easily <G>  Need to know the whole thresholding stuff, in
more detail than I can remember it today.  It's been a while <G>

 Mark

--
I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.


'[BUY]: International Component Suppliers'
2001\10\29@144353 by John Maud
flavicon
face
Would anyone care to share their list, links, or comments, on reliable
international component suppliers with me. I am looking to purchase a
few hundred US dollars' worth of components from  a distributor
offshore, mainly Dallas and Motorola (fortunately we have an excellent
PIC disty here, so none of them on the list).

Thanks

John
South Africa

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2001\10\30@041118 by Graeme Zimmer

flavicon
face
Hi John,

> Would anyone care to share their list, links, or comments, on reliable
> international component suppliers with me.

http://www.farnell.com

Prices somewhat high, but incredible range of components and excellent
service.

The printed catalog is a "must have", however their on-line catalog is not
quite so good.

Aparently the catalog and range varies somewhat from country to country...

....................... Zim

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2001\10\30@060701 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>http://www.farnell.com

>Prices somewhat high, but incredible range of components and excellent
>service.
>
>The printed catalog is a "must have", however their on-line catalog is not
>quite so good.
>
>Aparently the catalogue and range varies somewhat from country to
country...

Similarly with rshttp://www.com who are a major competitor to Farnell, and
produce a similar multi-volume catalogue. Their CD catalogue is a lot better
than Farnell's though from the usability point of view. Many companies in
the UK use these two companies as their "Just in Time" parts suppliers
because of their overnight delivery times. You may find that there are South
African branches of both, else try going through their Australian branches.

Both companies supply a wide range of items from electronic components
(including a wide range of surface mount) through test equipment and books,
mechanical parts (plastic boxes, metal chassis, extruded aluminium brackets,
wide range of heatsinks, screws, nuts etc) to health and safety items
(ladders, hard hats, safety labels, yellow/black stripe tape etc).

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2001\10\31@125507 by steve

flavicon
face
> > Would anyone care to share their list, links, or comments, on
> > reliable international component suppliers with me.
>
> http://www.farnell.com
>
> Prices somewhat high, but incredible range of components and excellent
> service.

It pays to check the Farnell prices. I bought my scope through
them because they were cheaper than the local Tektronix disti by a
few hundred dollars. They are also competitive on some of the PICs
for around the 100 qty.

The two international suppliers that I use the most are Digikey for
qty < reel and Future (although MOQs apply). Digikey has a good
website for ordering and they have improved the international
ordering a bit. Watch the freight costs though.

Future have local guy here, but like most of the suppliers, they are
a) generally hopeless and b) small business unfriendly. However, I
deal directly with an account manager in Canada and get really
good service. I think he's spent more money on "how's it going"
phone calls than I've spent on components. YMMV.

Steve.

======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: RemoveMEstevebspam_OUTspamtla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

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'[OT]: 2001 International Striling Engine Conferenc'
2001\11\21@050633 by Russell McMahon
picon face
International Stirling Engine conference *SEPTEMBER* 2001

       http://sun.vdi-online.de/isec/

Paper titles and some abstracts.
No details.


http://sun.vdi-online.de/isec/_seiten_engl/pconference_programme.html

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'[AD]: PIC16F877 Boot Loader Kit (International Shi'
2002\06\25@174358 by Daniel Rubin
flavicon
face
Hopefully this is of interest to some of you on the list...

As a test run I am going to offer international shipping (from the US) on
my boot loader PIC16F877 programming kit that is currently on Ebay.   The
Ebay item number is
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1744366727 and I am
offering 20 kits with the international shipping option.   Domestic
shipping is $4.50 for USPS priority mail and international shipping is
$10.00 for UPSP Global Priority Service.

I also still have a quantity of 4 MHZ PIC16F877 40 pin DIP chips (microchip
part no. PIC16F877-04/P)
to sell at $6.50 each.  If anyone wants one or more of these please send me
email and I'll also ship them out internationally.  The international
shipping rate for these will be $10.00 also (for up to 10) via USPS Global
Priority.  Paypal payments only on these.  Please email your order to me
first and I'll send over a total.

Thanks
- Dan



{Quote hidden}

-- Design Devices, http://www.designdevices.com
PIC microcontroller programmers & tools, motor controllers and more!  Ebay
Deals:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=designdevices

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2002\06\25@191050 by Brandon Stewart

picon face
Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people to
find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!  Also, This list is not
here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!







{Original Message removed}

2002\06\25@192642 by Brendan Moran

flavicon
face
If you actually go throught he link he provided, you'll find that he is
offering slightly more than the '877.  You'll notice that the original
message said "kit"  There was a reason for that.  Here's the kit contents
from the ebay site.

"In addition to the PIC16F877 microcontroller, the kit also includes one 20
Mhz ceramic resonator with a special breadboard socket, one MAX232 serial
conversion chip, one 5 volt regulator, one reset switch, two LEDs, one 9
volt battery clip, one serial cable with breadboard compatible endpoints and
a handfull of supporting resistors and capacitors. Everything you need to
setup the microcontroller for programming and development work on a standard
breadboard (available at Radio Shack) is included."

I know that the Technological Arts evaluation board for the MC68HC12B32 that
I had to buy for a course (and consisted of little more than is shown here)
cost me $150 CAN  About 100USD.

The only real difference between the two is that the technological arts one
was already build on a PCB, and the HC12 costs about 20USD, and considering
that the HC12 was in the LQFP package, that's not a big surprise.

--Brendan
{Original Message removed}

2002\06\25@194335 by Jinx

face picon face
> Also, This list is not here for commercial purposes or your
> own financial gain!

It can be - that's what the [AD] tag is for

And who on this list doesn't gain, commercially or spiritually,
directly or indirectly ? You could say that EVERY thread has
commercial implications. Then what do you do ?

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2002\06\25@195607 by John Brown

picon face
>And who on this list doesn't gain ... spiritually

Ummm, let me see, everybody?!

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2002\06\25@201858 by Daniel Rubin

flavicon
face
Brandon,

I am sorry you are upset with the posting.  From reading the intro to the
list I thought posting ads was ok if you put [AD] in the subject.

I think the cost of the kit is reasonable.   If you were to purchase all
the included parts in single item quantities it would probably cost you
more than $19...   not to mention the intangible costs for designing and
supporting the boot loader.

- Dan

At 07:06 PM 6/25/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people to
>find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!  Also, This list is not
>here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!



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2002\06\25@204020 by Jinx

face picon face
> >And who on this list doesn't gain ... spiritually
>
> Ummm, let me see, everybody?!

You did mean "does gain" not "doesn't gain" ? I hope ;-)

> its not hard for people to find a pre-burned chip with one
> for a lot cheaper!

That might be debatable - some people are in countries
that don't have easy access to all manner of things electronic.
Flip, even here in an "advanced" country like New Zealand
I have trouble getting parts that, dare I say privileged, folk in
other places can get with a quick phone call or a short trip

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2002\06\25@215200 by Brandon Stewart

picon face
I apologize.  That was a quick and irrational reply that I made earlier, and
I was actually upset at other issues when I made that post.  After reading
all that is included.. It is a fair deal.  And I DID miss the AD tag.  I was
totally wrong in every way!  My thoughts were that aside from purchasing the
PIC chip, all of the other parts are very cheap, or even free if you invest
a little time.  RS232 converter chips and others are free from Maxim!  But
there again, I am a real do it yourself person with a vast collection of
parts.  I take this for granted.


==> So, again... I hope that you will accept my apology Daniel!  And sorry
for wasting everyone else's time reading it!


I know this is a huge change in tone from my last post, but I am actually
glad there are people out there that offer better and more reasonable ($$)
alternatives to the junk kits that Radio Shack provides!

Regards,
Brandon



{Original Message removed}

2002\06\25@224322 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
That's a little cruel. While what you speak of is free the hardware in his
KIT is not, and for a complete beginner the thought of figuring all of this
out on your own is more then some are willing to do. TTYL

> {Original Message removed}

2002\06\25@233655 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Brandon Stewart wrote:

> Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people to
> find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!  Also, This list is not
> here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!

First off, the value of a product or service is whatever people are
willing to pay for it.  I'm sure Mr. Rubin will be able to find customers
for his products.  Not all bootloaders are free, and you will find similar
packages sold by many individuals and companies.  If Mr. Rubin has
bootloader code and documentation that he created, he's perfectly able to
set a price on that code and documentation, along with whatever else is
included in the kit.

Second, if you will notice, Mr. Rubin properly tagged his message using
the [AD]: topic tag.  Any list member is free to advertise PIC related
products or services, within reason, as long as the message is properly
tagged.  If you do not wish to see these messages, I suggest you visit the
PICList web site at http://www.piclist.com/ and read up on topic tag
filtering; you can have the list server not deliver these messages to you.
In any case, please refrain from complaining onm the list, it wastes
bandwidth and people's time.  If you have a problem with a message posted
to the list and feel compelled to complain, do it via private email to the
poster or the list admins.

Thanks.

Dale Botkin
PICList ADmin

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2002\06\26@020808 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
> Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people
to
> find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!  Also, This list is not
> here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!

It is, provided that the [AD]: (which was specified on the subject line!) is
PIC (or at least EE?) -related. And a bootloader can be great for people who
do not have a programmer.... I provide a free bootloader design (WLoader), I
sell PIC chips, and quite a number of 16f877's are sold with the bootloader
inside...

Wouter van Ooijen
--
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Jal compiler, Wisp programmer, WLoader bootloader, PICs kopen

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2002\06\26@033648 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>RS232 converter chips and others are free from Maxim!

Only if you get two samples. Any more than that and you pay.

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2002\06\26@033902 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I apologize.  That was a quick and irrational reply
>that I made earlier, and I was actually upset at
>other issues when I made that post.  After reading
>all that is included.. It is a fair deal.
>And I DID miss the AD tag.

The best way to minimise the upset and make the most of the tags is to have
your mail reader filter the tags into different boxes. Makes reading your
mail a lot easier, and helps keep topics together, along with prioritising
the order you read them.

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2002\06\26@041115 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Jinx wrote:

>> Also, This list is not here for commercial purposes or your
>> own financial gain!
>
>It can be - that's what the [AD] tag is for
>
>And who on this list doesn't gain, commercially or spiritually,
>directly or indirectly ? You could say that EVERY thread has
>commercial implications. Then what do you do ?

Post empty messages with as short a message as possible crammed in the
subject to reduce the amount of information de enemy can deduce as much as
possible, of course.

Peter

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2002\06\26@073741 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people
to
> find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!

There are certainly free ones out there, and it's not even that hard to
write your own.  We have our own, although we don't give it away for free.
I suspect he won't get any takers.

> Also, This list is not
> here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!

Actually, I think it is allowed as long as it's tagged with [AD], which it
was.  I'm sure an admin will correct me if I'm wrong.

In short, yes I agree its a ripoff which he will probably discover shortly.
However, if you don't want these kinds of messages then its up to you to
shut off the [AD] channel.  I wouldn't want to see one of these every day,
but for now I find it entertaining.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\06\26@160139 by Daniel Rubin

flavicon
face
Rip Off... very interesting take on this?  I set the price for the kit at
what it would cost to purchase all the components single quantities.  If I
sold 1000 a week I could probably sell these kits for $13 or $14 and do it
full time.  But that is not going to happen.  I don't want to waste
bandwidth on this thread, but I have to at least defend my kit from the 2
messages to the list stating this thing is a rip off..

At Digikey:

PIC16F877/20: $9.88
MAX232: $1.60
Resonator: $.81
LM7805: $.59
Reset Switch: $.49
Batter Clip: $.29
All other stuff: $.50

That's just over $14.  If you add $5 for a serial cable (I dare you to find
one cheaper at your local computer store) that totals $19.

If you did buy all of this from Digikey you would also have to add $5
handling fee to the order since it totalled under $25.

I figured if I purchase this stuff in larger quantities I might be able to
make some money while saving others some time (see the story below).  It
turns out that I spend about 15 minutes putting this kit together in
programming/testing the PIC, cutting/bending the resonator socket,
stripping/soldering pins to the serial cable, sorting/packing all the
parts, printing the manual, writing the floppy, printing a shipping label
packing it all up.   I have tried to do it faster but it seems to always
take me just about a hour to get four of them ready to ship.   I make about
$7 on each kit I sell.  So the best I could do is $28 an hour and that is
assuming once the kit is shipped out I don't spend any more time on it..  I
only sell about 5 or 6 of these kits a week so that is an extra $35 a
week.  Not really worth the effort and the up front cost of the inventory.

THE STORY

If you don't want to read a long story about how this kit came about I
would just delete this message now.

When I started with the PIC I purchased a 16F877 and a Warp-13 programmer
(very good product by the way) for the heart of a stepper
controller.   That set me back about $100.  Now I could program the PIC,
but I needed more parts to do anything else with it.

I did some searching and determined I needed a crystal, voltage regulator,
some caps and resistors.   I went to radio shack and purchased everything
except the crystal (they had to order that and it would take over a week).
The parts I did purchase at radio shack cost over $5!  I would recommend
you use Radio Shack only as a last resort for anything.

After more research I found that I could use a ceramic resonator instead of
a crystal and 2 caps.    Digikey had the part for less than $1 but they
have a minimum order of $25 unless you want to pay a $5 handling fee.  I
did what any other electronics tinkerer would do and bought a bunch of
stuff I didn't really need to bring my order up to $25.  The parts arrived
in 4 days and I was good to go.

After playing around with MPLAB I realized that I would be doing a lot of
re-programming to get this thing right and I remembered reading about a
boot loader that allowed these chips to reprogram themselves.  I thought
that would be a great idea because I was already planning on using a serial
interface to talk to the controller and I would not need to move the PIC
back and forth from the development board to the Warp-13 while learning how
to program the PIC.  I looked into it further and found the Microchip
application note AN732.  It described what I wanted to do, but used 2
precious pins for hardware flow control.  I figured I would modify it to
use some sort of software flow control after getting the example in that
application note working.

By diving into this boot loader idea I realized, sooner rather than later,
I would need something like a MAX232 to connect the PIC to a PC.  Since
that chip is another part not available at the local Radio Shack I had to
buy another $25 worth of stuff at Digikey to get it.  It arrived and I set
it all up on my breadboard, created a MPLAB project and loaded up the
example code from the AN732.  Well that code did not work at all... It
drove me nuts because I didn't know if my circuit on the breadboard was
wrong or the code was just broken.  I dug into it further on the
net.  Turns out there is much more to serial communication on a PIC than
what is described in AN732.  After many more hours of frustration I finally
wrote serial routines that worked and got the thing to program itself using
software flow control.   I then worked on a simple c-based DOS program to
do the hexfile upload... another 4 hours of work... gotta hate DOS programming!

So after over $150 and many hours of work I have finally had a boot loader
enabled PIC.

When I got everything working I thought this might be a good idea to
package up save others some time.  It was not until after I got the motor
controller done I decided offer all of this work in kit form for a lot less
than what it cost me.

- Dan

At 07:36 AM 6/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\26@161345 by Brendan Moran

flavicon
face
Personally, if I had seen this before I built my Tait-style programmer when
I was getting started with PICs, I would have gone for it, being used to the
MC68HC12 Eval board as a development environment (no big difference in
concept).

But that's just me.

--Brendan
{Original Message removed}

2002\06\26@161807 by Albert Clark

flavicon
face
I think this is a good idea and not a rip off

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2002\06\26@163249 by David P. Harris

picon face
Good for you Rubin -- nice to see someone take some initiative.  Just the fact you got
all the parts together is useful.
David

Daniel Rubin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\26@191122 by John Dammeyer

flavicon
face
I second what David has said.

If I could offer my RF CAN modules for $5.95 I would too but between the
cost of boards, components and automated board stuffing I can't seem to
get cost down below about $99.  For an RF solution for hobbyists that's
too expensive.  For someone who wants CAN bus over RF and needs the peer
to peer networking via a SPI bus connection it's not a bad price.

John Dammeyer

Wireless CAN with the CANRF module.
www.autoartisans.com/documents/canrf_prod_announcement.pdf
Automation Artisans Inc.
Ph. 1 250 544 4950


> {Original Message removed}

2002\06\27@185358 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Daniel Rubin wrote:
>
> Rip Off... very interesting take on this?  I set the price for the kit at
> what it would cost to purchase all the components single quantities.

Hi Daniel,

I wouldn't take the negative comments to heart.

I've been selling very low volume kits for a few years now, and I, (and
others on this list no doubt), know first hand how hard it is to come up
with something cheap and on a small scale.

Keep it up and soldier on. The financial rewards can be slim pickin's
but the personal satisfaction is high.

--
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Tony

mICros
http://www.bubblesoftonline.com
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'[OT]: International Space Station Guide'
2002\09\06@054126 by Russell McMahon
face
flavicon
face
International Space Station Guide
Extensive

       http://home.attbi.com/~issguide/

Components

       http://home.attbi.com/~issguide/components/components.html

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'[OT]: International WiFi hot spots?'
2003\03\27@131939 by Harold Hallikainen
picon face
    Since we have an international audience here, I thought this might be a good place to ask...
    My aunt leads tours from the US to New Zealand and Australia. She'd like to set up a notebook computer so she can just walk into a wireless hot spot anywhere in the world and have access to the net (and her email, etc.). What's generally available for travelers like her? Are there free services that are widespread? Paid services that she could activate on a daily or monthly basis? Would she just set the wireless card to DHCP and DHCP would take care of the rest of it?

THANKS!

Harold




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2003\03\27@133658 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
>      Since we have an international audience here, I thought this
> might be a good place to ask...
>      My aunt leads tours from the US to New Zealand and
> Australia. She'd like to set up a notebook computer so she can
> just walk into a wireless hot spot anywhere in the world and have
> access to the net (and her email, etc.). What's generally
> available for travelers like her? Are there free services that
> are widespread? Paid services that she could activate on a daily
> or monthly basis? Would she just set the wireless card to DHCP
> and DHCP would take care of the rest of it?

       I don't know of a universal database for this sort of thing but I can
answer the second part. DHCP will be almost enough for MOST hotspots, you
would have to set the SSID. Some of the pay services may use encryption
which means you'd also have to enable encryption and enter the encryption
key. TTYL

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2003\03\27@134113 by Robert Ussery

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Herbert Graf" <RemoveMEmailinglistspamBeGonespamRemoveMEFARCITE.NET>

|         I don't know of a universal database for this sort of thing but I
can
| answer the second part. DHCP will be almost enough for MOST hotspots, you
| would have to set the SSID. Some of the pay services may use encryption
| which means you'd also have to enable encryption and enter the encryption
| key. TTYL

I assume the "war-driving" databases don't cover WiFi? They only contain
wireless network nodes, right? If not, they'd be a great source, since
they're available for almost everywhere. I certainly don't advocate
war-driving, but as long as the databases are there, why not use them
legally? (Again, assuming they include WiFi nodes)

- Robert

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2003\03\27@135118 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> |         I don't know of a universal database for this sort of
> thing but I
> can
> | answer the second part. DHCP will be almost enough for MOST
> hotspots, you
> | would have to set the SSID. Some of the pay services may use encryption
> | which means you'd also have to enable encryption and enter the
> encryption
> | key. TTYL
>
> I assume the "war-driving" databases don't cover WiFi? They only contain
> wireless network nodes, right? If not, they'd be a great source, since
> they're available for almost everywhere. I certainly don't advocate
> war-driving, but as long as the databases are there, why not use them
> legally? (Again, assuming they include WiFi nodes)

       They do cover WiFi (in fact that's all most cover) however use of a network
without permission is very likely illegal, therefore I would NOT recommend
using these databases. Some do cross reference to publicly available
hotspots, however most are simply "open" access point databases. I'm not
sure how much trouble one would get in for using an access point without
permission, but I'm sure it's not good. TTYL

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'[OT]: International WiFi hot spots?'
2003\04\04@120125 by Patrik Husfloen
flavicon
face
www.wi-fizone.org/zoneLocator.asp?TID=7

found that url in a swedish tech-paper today.

/Patrik

Harold Hallikainen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\04\04@130059 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
THANKS! I note, however, that New Zealand is not listed...

Harold
---------- Patrik Husfloen <spamBeGonepathu440spamSTUDENT.LIU.SE> writes:


http://www.wi-fizone.org/zoneLocator.asp?TID=7

found that url in a swedish tech-paper today.

/Patrik

Harold Hallikainen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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'[OT]: International relations resources'
2003\04\08@041353 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
Astoundingly wide-ranging:

"The WWW Virtual Library: International Affairs Resources  "

         http://www.etown.edu/vl/

Includes news sources, International online television and radio broadcasts
(1000's), journals and magazines, organisation lists and access and far
more.

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'[OT:] Drugtext - International drug information'
2003\12\03@025816 by Russell McMahon
face
flavicon
face
Information on international recreational / illicit drug usage, addiction,
policies etc.
Details policies and management action taken by of many countries.

       http://www.drugtext.org/

They say:

The main purpose of Drugtext and Drugtext Foundation is the dissemination
and production of information on substance use, addiction, harm reduction,
international and national drug policy.

Also extends (in Amsterdam case at least) into other areas such as
prostitution.

______________________________

Country pages (37  countries)

       http://www.drugtext.org/count/


Netherlands "official" page

       http://www.drugtext.org/count/nl1.html

Amsterdam pages

       http://www.drugtext.org/count/nl/adam.html


__________________

Found while Googling for heroin related information in Amsterdam.
The two Amsterdam 'official facts and figures' (1995) have some relevance to
NZ at present.

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'[EE]: Digikey delivery internationally'
2005\01\09@222254 by Russell McMahon
face
flavicon
face
I'll put this under EE as it will be of potential interest to non-US
EEites.

Ordered from Digikey on 29 December.
Chose Global Express mail service.
Took 12 days to arrive - about what they said.
Delivered to a mail post box here.

Global Express is a mail service.
It is the only mail offered - all others offered were courier services
at MANY times the price.
While couriers MAY have a 2 to 3 day delivery time, my experience is
that things can go very wrong at the local end.
I recently had a DHL parcel take one day to arrive from Australia and
3+ days to deliver locally.

Even the service provided wasn't cheap. A 14 oz box with 4 ounces of
IC's therein (including all packaging, desiccants, antistatic bags etc
cost $US20.50 plus $6 extra for international handling by Digikey.
Annoying but unavoidable as I needed what they had and nobody else
more accessible had it.

I've used FEDEX or DHL from Digikey in the past but would be inclined
to use Global Express in future. The one minus is the lack of track
and trace. Digikey addressing is clear and is exactly what you enter
when you place the order so risk is smallish.


       RM

2005\01\10@032307 by William Jacobs

flavicon
face
Russell,
You may want to consider Global Prioriy mail.  $5.00US for 1 pound most
places in the world.
I have shipped from the US to Japan and had delivery in 5 days.
Bill

Russell McMahon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\01\10@043244 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> You may want to consider Global Prioriy mail.  $5.00US for 1 pound
> most places in the world.
> I have shipped from the US to Japan and had delivery in 5 days.

I'm aware of Global Priority mail - alas, Digikey don't seem to be.
I've bought a number of books from ABE books and most booksellers seem
to use Global Priority Express envelopes. $US9 to NZ for the size that
takes about 100 x A4 sheets.


       RM

2005\01\10@073543 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:23:57 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

> I'm aware of Global Priority mail - alas, Digikey don't seem to be.

Did you try asking them?  There was one US supplier that I used (I *think* it was Digikey but I can't remember
for sure) that offered Global Express on their pull-down menu, but not Global Priority.  When I questioned
this they said "We don't want to confuse people by having too many options.  If you want Global Priority
choose "Other" and ask for it in the comments".

Worth a try, anyway!  Global Priority can get to me in three days, and I always request it from US suppliers.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England



'[OT] International paper madness'
2005\03\01@235734 by Russell McMahon
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Forestry is a major NZ industry.
We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".

Just bought 5 ream of 80 gsm photocopier paper.
Cheapest version - substantially cheaper than some was UPM Kymmene.
Seemed good to me. Looks OK.

Made where I wondered.
Googles ...

Finland!
All things considered, that's bizarre



       RM

2005\03\02@000416 by Dave VanHorn

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At 11:57 PM 3/1/2005, Russell McMahon wrote:
>Forestry is a major NZ industry.
>We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".

All the sugar in Hawaii is imported from the US mainland...


2005\03\02@001643 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 05:57 PM 3/2/2005 +1300, you wrote:
>Forestry is a major NZ industry.
>We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".
>
>Just bought 5 ream of 80 gsm photocopier paper.
>Cheapest version - substantially cheaper than some was UPM Kymmene. Seemed
>good to me. Looks OK.
>
>Made where I wondered.
>Googles ...
>
>Finland!
>All things considered, that's bizarre

Yes, the inexpensive letter size 20lb (75gm/m^2) 94 brilliance printer paper
I buy here in Canada (from a US big-box club retailer) is made in Sweden.
It is a bit bizarre. There are a lot of trees here, and the forestry
industry is huge. Maybe they're making higher end stuff.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2005\03\02@092810 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:57:30 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Forestry is a major NZ industry.
> We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".

That's pretty daft - "wet" logs weigh a vast amount more than if they are turned into dry pulp.  Several times
more, so unless you're not worried about weight, it must cost a lot more in shipping.  Unless they're charged
by volume?

> Just bought 5 ream of 80 gsm photocopier paper.
> Cheapest version - substantially cheaper than some was UPM Kymmene.

Hey, they were a client at one time - I did a project in their London office.  At the time they were the
largest corporation in Finland.  I imagine Nokia have overtaken them...

> Seemed good to me. Looks OK.
>
> Made where I wondered.
> Googles ...
>
> Finland!
> All things considered, that's bizarre

Well it seems to me that these days most things are made on the far side of the planet from their consumers -
most home electronic equipment, even from the big names, appears to have been made in China.  How much does it
cost to ship a video recorder?

Kymmene are a wood-products company.  Finland is almost all forest, and they turn the trees into everything
from buildings to bog-rolls, so they have the process really well set up.  I imagine the good logs end up as
structural timber, the dodgy ones as pulp for papermaking - with the bark as a gardening material, and vry
little waste.  The trouble for New Zealand is the small local market, so it may not be worth running paper
mills there.  I worked for a paper making firm once, and when I joined they had six paper macines (each as big
as a decent-sized ship!).  As competition hotted up, the prices fell and it made the machines uneconomic.  
Over about five years all but one paper machine was decommissioned (they sold them to China!).  And this was a
firm whose founder had developed the paper machine in the first place!

Times, they certainly are a-changing!  :-)

Cheers,




Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\02@134350 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
And now for something COMPLETELY different:

At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
is all that shipping doing to our planet?

I've got a big thing for buying local and "growing your own" where possible.
I don't buy eggs anymore. If not for my wife and kids, I wouldn't buy
chicken and I would eat a lot more rabbit. A lot of the veggies eaten in my
house come from our garden. The house is heated by a wood stove burning wood
cut from local land. The PV system goes in next week (they keep promising).
So, yes, I guess I am an eco fanatic... <GRIN>

http://www.pathtofreedom.com Grows almost ALL food on his 1/5 acre suburban
lot. With food, there are other reasons to stay local above and beyond just
the cost of transport. (Note to Russell, this guy loves NZ, used to live
there, wants to move back)

Now, I am not crazy enough to say that we should all be making our own
paper, but of all the people in the world, the people on this list are
probably best qualified to do so. Or to do this sort of thing. AND we know
how to do this sort of thing in an automated way, thereby making it less of
a full time job.
http://wi.essortment.com/paperhowismad_rrfn.htm

If Speff or Russell decided that they needed to make their own laser quality
paper from local trees, they could do it. And probably make a machine that
would allow anyone to make their own paper. It isn't worth it, financially,
of course. I'm not suggesting it. I'm just saying, we don't HAVE to ship our
paper in from another country or even from a local mill.

What I am suggesting is that we remember this: If (when?) the cost of
transportation rises to the point that import/export is no longer effective,
we are the people who can "pick up the slack" and supply the local market.
Hobby CNC is an explosive growth market right now. People are going to start
to expect to be able to make things in their own home.
http://www.buildyouridea.com/cnc.html look at where he got the castings.

Another nutty point: We each have a stock of parts. Lots of those parts are
just sitting there. If our local inventory where up to date and known to a
central web server, people near you, who needed that part in a hurry could
potentially buy it (for more than you paid for it, but less than it would
cost with overnight shipping) and it could be re-ordered automatically to
replenish your stock. Not worth your time? Yes, I understand that. But what
if your inventory were ALL on tape reel and you had a little 'bot that could
dispense and put out the parts in a lockbox on your porch that only the
buyer could open? Just trying to think about tomorrow, today.
http://www.freecycle.com

Amazon.com is starting to do this. You find your item online, with TONS of
information, reviews, etc... And then you purchase it and pick it up at a
local Office Depot or whatever. Someday, Barns and Nobel or one of the other
big book chains is going to get smart and make that happen. Or they are
going to fail and get purchased by Amazon. The internet locates it for you,
but you should have the option of physically getting it locally right f'ing
NOW. Bicycle couriers are going to be a growth industry someday...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\02@135116 by Dave VanHorn

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At 01:43 PM 3/2/2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>And now for something COMPLETELY different:
>
>At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
>is all that shipping doing to our planet?
>
>I've got a big thing for buying local and "growing your own" where possible.
>I don't buy eggs anymore. If not for my wife and kids, I wouldn't buy
>chicken and I would eat a lot more rabbit.

Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and jailed
because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....

At least they did get a meal in the end.




2005\03\02@140101 by Alex Harford

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On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:43:45 -0800, James Newtons Massmind
<TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonspamspamRemoveMEmassmind.org> wrote:
> And now for something COMPLETELY different:
>
> At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
> is all that shipping doing to our planet?
>

>
> What I am suggesting is that we remember this: If (when?) the cost of
> transportation rises to the point that import/export is no longer effective,
> we are the people who can "pick up the slack" and supply the local market.

Problem is, the true cost of transportation and burning fossil fuels
is never borne by the people who are doing the burning.  :-(

http://www.truehealth.org/climnw05.html

Living in an urban area, I try to do my best to go green, but my other
hobby (autocrossing) is kind of at odds with that.

Alex

2005\03\02@144512 by Tony Smith

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{Quote hidden}

Of course, the 'paperless office' doesn't help.  I think the price of paper
is far too cheap.

As an example, I spent a few months at a Australian telco, who were pushing
the 'go green, recycle, rah rah rah barrow'.  Near me there were 2 printers,
each about 4 years old. (The entire floor probably had 30 or so printers.)
Each of these printers had done 500,000 pages each.

2 printers, 1 MILLION pieces of paper.

500 sheets to a ream, 2000 reams of paper.  Ream is about 50mm thick, so a
100 metre pile of paper.  At $AU5 a ream, $10K.  Chickenfeed.

I wonder if it's possible to tax it out of existance.

Tony

2005\03\02@152321 by Roland

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At 06:46 AM 03/03/2005 +1100, you wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>>...............
>
>100 metre pile of paper.  At $AU5 a ream, $10K.  Chickenfeed.
>
>I wonder if it's possible to tax it out of existance.
>

why do so many people think that giving money to government is a cure?, for
anything?
- import taxes to protect local industry
- sin taxes on alcohol/// to curb drinking///
- increased taxes to curtail/modulate a booming economy
the list goes on..


Regards
Roland Jollivet

2005\03\02@170602 by Tony Smith

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{Quote hidden}

Well, telling people to stop printing out crap doesn't seem to work.

Ok, how about prohibition on printer paper then?  Seeing a black market
appear should be amusing.

Failing that, we're left with greenies raiding offices & setting their
printers on fire.

Tony

2005\03\02@194822 by martinb

picon face
As a form of price support, In California almost all Orange juice is from
Florida Concentrate and the reverse is true in Florida.
Otherwise it would be so cheap that the farmers would not be able to grow
it. Weird, huh?



> At 11:57 PM 3/1/2005, Russell McMahon wrote:
>>Forestry is a major NZ industry.
>>We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".
>
> All the sugar in Hawaii is imported from the US mainland...
>
>
> -

2005\03\02@211258 by Mike Singer

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Russell McMahon  wrote:
> Cheapest version - substantially cheaper than some was UPM Kymmene.
> Seemed good to me. Looks OK.
>
> Made where I wondered.
> Googles ...
>
> Finland!

Google again with the phrase

"UPM-Kymmene imports timber to Finland from North-West Russia"

Regards,
Mike.

2005\03\02@214021 by SM Ling

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>500 sheets to a ream, 2000 reams of paper.  Ream is about 50mm thick, so a
100 metre pile of paper.  At $AU5 a ream, $10K.  Chickenfeed.

>I wonder if it's possible to tax it out of existance.

HP, Lexmark, etc have been doing the taxing for a long time now.

Ling SM


2005\03\02@232634 by Russell McMahon

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> "UPM-Kymmene imports timber to Finland from North-West Russia"


       http://w3.tracingimports.upm-kymmene.com/tag/internet/tagintern.nsf/AllByLanguageID/B28AA0DBF73BCA53C22569B000471305_1?OpenDocument

Not too surprising - according to my reading the Finns have a long
history of interaction with Russia :-)

AFAIK the Molotov Cocktail was invented by the Finns but named in
honour of a Russian (Stalin's right hand man).
(Although, many people would have used similar devices for a long time
previously but not with that name).

FWIW at one stage if not now, NZ was importing unprocessed Russian
logs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A fine example of "carrying coals to Newcastle".


       RM

2005\03\03@072759 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Roland wrote:

>>100 metre pile of paper.  At $AU5 a ream, $10K.  Chickenfeed.
>>
>>I wonder if it's possible to tax it out of existance.
>
> why do so many people think that giving money to government is a cure?, for
> anything?
> - import taxes to protect local industry
> - sin taxes on alcohol/// to curb drinking///
> - increased taxes to curtail/modulate a booming economy
> the list goes on..

The German word for "tax" is "Steuer". Translating "Steuer" back to English
-- not considering any special context -- comes out as something like
"steering". This is an aspect of taxes that most words in other languages
don't convey.

One of the basic problems of capitalist theory and its application is that
many costs are not paid for by the user of a product or service. They are
hidden in the common costs of the society, or are left as a burden for
future populations. That's where taxes sometimes come in, usually in a
rather clumsy and not very logical or efficient manner, trying to "steer"
things in a better direction (in the best-case scenario).

The logical application of the capitalist model would be that every product
or service would have to take the full burden to pay for cleaning up every
side-effect. Everything else is socialism... :)

Gerhard

2005\03\03@073548 by Howard Winter

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Dave,

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:51:36 -0500, Dave VanHorn wrote:

> Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and jailed
> because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....

I'm amazed - what were they charged with?  So in the Land of the Free, it's now illegal to catch your own
food?  Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\03@074434 by Howard Winter

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Martin,

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:48:21 -0800 (PST), EraseMEmartinbRemoveMEspamsonic.net wrote:

> As a form of price support, In California almost all Orange juice is from
> Florida Concentrate and the reverse is true in Florida.
> Otherwise it would be so cheap that the farmers would not be able to grow
> it. Weird, huh?

It's not weird, it's Bollocks!  ('scuse the outburst)

Messing about with agricultural prices is a Bad Thing from the start.  It's where the EU started out when it
was the Common Market (Don't blame me, I voted "No"!).  Result:  farmers who are lazy, inefficient or just
crooked get handouts so thay can continue like that.  Italy had (maybe still has) subsidies for olive groves,
but never audited the claims.  When outsiders started checking the figures, they found things like sites that
had been a shopping centres for ten years that were still getting the subsidy for being an olive grove!  This
is just a single example among thousands that show that if you try to change things by using secondary methods
(financial for example) people, the most versatile animal on the planet, will adapt and find ways to exploit
the situation and thwart the original purpose.  It's what we do!!!

(/rant)

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\03@082217 by Russell McMahon

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> The logical application of the capitalist model would be that every
> product
> or service would have to take the full burden to pay for cleaning up
> every
> side-effect. Everything else is socialism... :)

Shields up:

Pure capitalism and pure socialism are both exercises in grossest
stupidity and to be avoided at all costs. The society that each of us
would consider "ideal" varies, but for the overwhelming majority it
falls somewhere between the two extremes. Some elements of shared
responsibility and shared benefits which are not directly proportional
to our load on or advantages gained from our social environment is the
expectation of almost all of us. Even Mr JG <you know who you are :-)
> falls in this category, if I may be so bold as to say so. [[While
doing so won't change things, if it makes you feel better you can send
some $ or equivalent to James to support the list's operation :-) ]].

Why, in a system which most claim has no absolutes, so many wish to
classify socialism or capitalism as absolutely without merit would be
puzzling, were it not for the known illogicality of human nature.

Shields still up



       RM

2005\03\03@082218 by Russell McMahon

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>> Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and
>> jailed
>> because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....

> I'm amazed - what were they charged with?  So in the Land of the
> Free, it's now illegal to catch your own
> food?  Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)

Beverley Hills.


       RM

2005\03\03@092843 by Howard Winter

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On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 02:13:10 +1300, Russell McMahon
wrote:

> Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)
>
> Beverley Hills.

Russell, you're deliberately misunderstanding for comic
effect!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\03@095535 by Dave VanHorn

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At 08:13 AM 3/3/2005, Russell McMahon wrote:
>>>Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and jailed
>>>because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....
>
>>I'm amazed - what were they charged with?

Cruelty to animals.

>>So in the Land of the Free, it's now illegal to catch your own food?

It's legal, but only in season, and with the appropriate licences (taxes) paid.

>>Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)

Wasn't he from West Va?


2005\03\03@100847 by John Ferrell

face picon face
A lot of what you see coming is already in existance but it is
"underground".
The rural area where I live there is a lot of local commerce that occurs
without advertising. In some cases the vegtables & such are behind the house
on a table with a copy of the current supermarket flyer with sale prices...
Just leave the money in the coffee can!

Things like eggs are loss leaders and are more practical to buy in town. Few
people with chickens raise enough to sell their eggs. When we are lucky
enough to score a few there is no question they are better!

With supermarket prices as low as they are on chicken and my aversion to
butchering them I will continue to buy them in town. Rabbit is good, but
butchering them is especially unpleasant.

We have pine forests here that get old and must be harvested or lost. Many
farmers get pretty stressed out with clearcutting and replanting. A clear
cut forest is very ugly for many years. The only market for the pine is pulp
wood and the margins are very thin there. Most of the hardwood goes for fire
wood or rough cut for farm buildings. The last time I bought 2X4 lumber at
the home improvement store it was marked from Belgium!

I agree the transportation costs are totally out of control. Small items
like shoe laces cost more to ship than manufacture. They are nearly
unavailable.

We have also found that buying beef and having it butchered & processed is a
lot more expensive than buying it at the store!

It is a strange world we live in.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\03\03@103231 by Cnc002

picon face
In a message dated 3/3/2005 7:45:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
spamHDRW.....spamspamh2org.demon.co.uk writes:
It's not weird, it's Bollocks!  ('scuse the outburst)

Messing about with agricultural prices is a Bad Thing from the start.  It's
where the EU started out when it
was the Common Market (Don't blame me, I voted "No"!).  Result:  farmers who
are lazy, inefficient or just
crooked get handouts so thay can continue like that.  Italy had (maybe still
has) subsidies for olive groves,
but never audited the claims.  When outsiders started checking the figures,
they found things like sites that
had been a shopping centres for ten years that were still getting the subsidy
for being an olive grove!  This
is just a single example among thousands that show that if you try to change
things by using secondary methods
(financial for example) people, the most versatile animal on the planet, will
adapt and find ways to exploit
the situation and thwart the original purpose.  It's what we do!!!

(/rant)

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England
Unless things have changed since I worked for an Italian company,  even if
that shopping center, whatever, wasn't getting subsidies for the olive grove,
they would probably still get subsidies for the shopping center.  When I worked
for a fairly large Italian OEM of industrial woodworking machinery, even
though they were making many millions off sales, the government still subidized
them with millions more for the factory, nothing to do with agriculture at all.  
And as far as I know, that is still going on.  I could understand some limited
help to companies in a temporary bind but to do it for companies that are
extremely profitable on their own just doesn't make sense.

Well, my two cents worth.

Randy Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road
Acworth, GA 30101
Ph / Fax: 770-974-5295
E-mail: cnc002spam_OUTspam@spam@aol.com

I furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for the
SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with my
extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and CNC
machinery to offer you needed support for your machinery.

2005\03\03@103935 by Howard Winter

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John,

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:12:13 -0500, John Ferrell wrote:
> Many farmers get pretty stressed out with clearcutting and replanting. A clear
> cut forest is very ugly for many years.
> The only market for the pine is pulp
> wood and the margins are very thin there. Most of the hardwood goes for fire
> wood or rough cut for farm buildings.

Good grief!

I had a look in Home Depot yesterday (I'm in New York until this evening) and I was amazed at the timber
available.  In the UK, B&Q (the nearest equivalent to Home Depot - even uses the same orange livery!)
pretty-much only sells softwood (pine, spruce, fir), it's often lousy quality, and it's not cheap even then
(you wouldn't think it grew on trees :-)  Home Depot had maple and red oak in planed planks - something I've
never seen before.  If I want hardwood planks I have to go to a specialist woodyard, it's normally only
rough-sawn in thickness and not at all in width ("waney edged") and the quality and availability is very
variable.  And the price is horrendous.  OK it wasn't cheap in Home Depot - Red Oak was $6.55 a linear foot in
1" x 12", so you wouldn't build a house with it, but at least it's available "round the corner" for projects
that call for it.

So howcome those farmers of yours don't get their hardwood planked, loaded into a container and sent across
the pond?  I'm sure we could buy it for a lot more than they currently get and a lot less than we currently
pay!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\03@105532 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Mar 3, 2005, at 6:28 AM, Howard Winter wrote:
>
>> Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)
>>
Jed got rich because he struck oil hunting ON HIS OWN PROPERTY.
Like many 'News stories', we don't know much of anything about
the homeless guys who caught the rabbits.  Clearly it wasn't their
own property, but the degree of acceptability of hunting varies
a lot depending on just how rural the surrounds are.  But "homeless"
tends to imply pretty urban, so you're probably talking about killing
rabbits in a city park...

BillW

2005\03\03@131917 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> > Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and
> > jailed because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....
>
> I'm amazed - what were they charged with?  So in the Land of
> the Free, it's now illegal to catch your own food?  Where
> would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)
>

The issue is the definition of "public" land. Most countries prohibit you
from hunting on other than your own land. In this case, if I remember
correctly, it was a park.

---
James.


2005\03\03@132846 by Dave VanHorn

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At 01:19 PM 3/3/2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> > > Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and
> > > jailed because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....
> >
> > I'm amazed - what were they charged with?  So in the Land of
> > the Free, it's now illegal to catch your own food?  Where
> > would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)
> >
>
>The issue is the definition of "public" land. Most countries prohibit you
>from hunting on other than your own land. In this case, if I remember
>correctly, it was a park.

Hmm.. Kind of leaves the homeless out in the cold again, doesn't it.


2005\03\03@134958 by Dal Wheeler

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Pretty amazing.  Here in the north west, a few years back, there was a
huge surge in rabbit population and had a few bunny baseball festivals.  
Wasen't appreciated by the national press, but they didn't have to deal
with the critters eating up all their stock either...

Dave VanHorn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\03\03@190158 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Two years ago in early December we had an early season ice storm that did
great damage to our trees. That left me and may others with a lot of nice
hardwood and no place to go with it. There is still so much on the ground
that those willing to cut firewood can have it for free and they are very
picky, taking only the easiest to get. Many woods wound up getting totally
cleared and the wood burned on site.

6 or 7 years ago Hurricane Fran took down many huge hardwood trees. In the
Raleigh NC area they burned the wood without regard to its potential value
for nearly a year! I have several Red Oaks that went down in that storm that
I tried to give away for several years. They are now in a state of
decomposition that I can break them up with my back hoe and get them out to
burn.

There simply is no organization in place that will allow economical salvage
of these resources.

I do the best I can manage to clean up my little forest to reduce the fuel
load in case of fire.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\03\03@195723 by Russell McMahon

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> Two years ago in early December we had an early season ice storm
> that did great damage to our trees. That left me and may others with
> a lot of nice

Large row of pine was felled here a while ago.
Owners took major timber and left branches etc for firewood for free.

Group arrived with a chainsaw mill and proceeded to make large number
of planks on the spot.
I was suitably impressed, never having seen how easily this is done
with a portable mill.

Oak planks sound good :-)


       RM

2005\03\04@003342 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
Shortly after we had moved into out current house, about 10 years
ago, a large Oak fell somewhat on the house (crashed through part
of the roof, knocked off the power.  Rumble, crash, dark.  What
fun!)  Insurance pays (or would pay) for removing the tree from the
house and most of the repairs, but does not cover removing the fallen
tree from the yard, even though that's a pretty significant expense...

So at a suggestion, I invited the local "wood turning mailing list"
over to cart away as much as they wanted, and sure enough about a
half dozen people showed up with trailers and tools, and carted
away most of the wood, gleefully chortling about their luck...
(These are the people who like to take a big chunk of wood, mount
it on a big lathe, and then remove most of the wood with tools,
leaving a rather nice bowl.  Or something.  Apparently big chunks
of oak are rather difficult to come by...)

It lent an interesting perspective to the whole event...

BillW

2005\03\04@061537 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Russell McMahon wrote:

> Shields up:

I moved myself in here... seems safer :)

>> The logical application of the capitalist model would be that every
>> product or service would have to take the full burden to pay for
>> cleaning up every side-effect. Everything else is socialism... :)

> Pure capitalism and pure socialism are both exercises in grossest
> stupidity and to be avoided at all costs.

But the thought is intriguing that like many others of the distortions,
large-scale pollution basically gets created by the fact that it is not
very well integrated into the capitalist model. If pollution showed up on
the cost side of the balance sheets of whoever causes it, things would
probably be different. The permission model ("so much pollution is
acceptable, so we grant for free or for a fixed fee that much to you")
doesn't work well. No incentive to reduce.

> Why, in a system which most claim has no absolutes, so many wish to
> classify socialism or capitalism as absolutely without merit would be
> puzzling, were it not for the known illogicality of human nature.

I think it's still puzzling... :)

> Shields still up

2005\03\04@160940 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> And now for something COMPLETELY different:
>
> At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
> is all that shipping doing to our planet?

Imho, mostly nothing. The shipping part is the one part that is *really*
efficient. It takes less fuel to move something by ship 10,000 km than
by anything else, for 1000 km. It also keeps quite a few longshoremen's
unions in the pink afaik.

Peter

2005\03\04@160954 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Alex Harford wrote:

> Living in an urban area, I try to do my best to go green, but my other
> hobby (autocrossing) is kind of at odds with that.

Alcohool used as fuel allows more compression and thus more hp withe the
same engines ;-)

Peter

2005\03\04@162614 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 .....martinbspamspam.....sonic.net wrote:

> As a form of price support, In California almost all Orange juice is from
> Florida Concentrate and the reverse is true in Florida.
> Otherwise it would be so cheap that the farmers would not be able to grow
> it. Weird, huh?

Not so weird. Guess who pays for the transport and the organisation (not
to mention the juice proper) ? Hint, hint (it's someone very near you -
likely someone who voted his government into power ?).

Peter

2005\03\04@164809 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 01:05 AM 3/4/2005 +0200, you wrote:


>On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>
>>And now for something COMPLETELY different:
>>
>>At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
>>is all that shipping doing to our planet?
>
>Imho, mostly nothing. The shipping part is the one part that is *really*
>efficient. It takes less fuel to move something by ship 10,000 km than by
>anything else, for 1000 km. It also keeps quite a few longshoremen's
>unions in the pink afaik.
>
>Peter

I worked out the cost of shipping an extremely cheap (dollar or two) item--
those ubiquitous Xmas lights from China. The cost was really negligible if you
filled standard 40' shipping containers (around 2,000 cubic feet usable).
It really
is efficient if you need mass consumer volumes.

As for bulk cargo, in the eighties, Japan was able to get coal from Australia
for less shipping cost than the rail costs of a few hundred miles shipping
from west VA to PA in the US.

It may be like telecom etc. the costs are dominated by the "last mile"
where things have to be handled individually, by road etc. More labor and
much more fuel and required resources (road maintenance, etc).

The longshoremen don't make nearly as much per shipment as they used to,
now that containerized freight dominates shipping. But the shipping has
expanded incredibly, so there is room for lots of very well paid union
workers.

James' idea of automating the "last mile" picking is an "out of box" idea
in the right direction.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffKILLspamspamEraseMEinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2005\03\04@170431 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> > What is all that shipping doing to our planet?
>
> Imho, mostly nothing. The shipping part is the one part that
> is *really* efficient. It takes less fuel to move something
> by ship 10,000 km than by anything else, for 1000 km. It also
> keeps quite a few longshoremen's unions in the pink afaik.

I was using the word shipping, but I was thinking about FedEx, UPS, USPS,
trucks, trains, and so on rather than just ships. I do understand that ships
are very efficient and with an aggregated load of everything going from one
place to one place almost no damage is done.

But before that load makes it onto the ship, it has to come from many
different places. And when it gets off the ship at the other end, it has to
go to many different places as well. It is at these end points that the
efficiency breaks down.

As an example, in the USA, trees that come in from Finland are all going to
arrive at the same port. Then they will be distributed over the thousands of
miles of US lands ("sea to shining sea") by trucks to local mills, processed
into lumber and then shipped back out again over ("purple mountain
majesties") thousands of miles to lumber yards, made into products by
companies and those will again, be shipped over thousands of ("amber waves
of grain") miles to stores or warehouses before making the final trip to the
homes of consumers, etc...

In my home town in Oregon, you can drive about 15 miles to Mr. Lindsey's
shop, which is situated on his 50 acres, and you can buy furniture he made
from his own trees.  He never runs out since pine grows about as fast as he
needs to cut it down. You can also drive about 30 miles to the new Ikea
store...

Will Mr. Lindsey's sons bother to learn all the things required to turn wood
into furniture and try sell it to local people? Or will they go work at the
Ikea store? And which will be better in the long run?

I hope they choose wisely. And all of us as well. And knowing where each
thing comes from, will that make a difference in our choices? And will our
choices affect only ourselves?


Ahhh... I feel a little Frost coming on...

 
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,  
And sorry I could not travel both  
And be one traveler, long I stood  
And looked down one as far as I could  
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
 
Then took the other, as just as fair,  
And having perhaps the better claim,  
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;  
Though as for that the passing there  
Had worn them really about the same,
 
And both that morning equally lay  
In leaves no step had trodden black.  
Oh, I kept the first for another day!  
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,  
I doubted if I should ever come back.
 
I shall be telling this with a sigh  
Somewhere ages and ages hence:  
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-  
I took the one less traveled by,  
And that has made all the difference.

Robert Frost (1874-1963).  Mountain Interval.  1920.  


2005\03\04@193106 by David Minkler

flavicon
face

>I took the one less traveled by,  
>And that has made all the difference.
>  
>
or not.  How would he know?

>Robert Frost (1874-1963).  Mountain Interval.  1920.
>
Dave


2005\03\04@194139 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I worked out the cost of shipping an extremely cheap (dollar or two)
> item--
> those ubiquitous Xmas lights from China. The cost was really
> negligible if you
> filled standard 40' shipping containers (around 2,000 cubic feet
> usable). It really is efficient if you need mass consumer volumes.

I just bought a standard garden shovel. Quality was probably not
marvellous, but it was better than that of the shovel that I didn't
have at present. It has a solid looking / feeling / hopefully being
wooden handle and a nice metal blade. It was made in China.  Cost was
$NZ4.96 - about $US3.50. When you can manufacture, ship, wholesale and
retail a shovel for $US3.50 the shipping cost for each must be about
as good as for fairy lights. If I wanted to send it back to China by
cheapest means possible I suspect the price for shipping alone would
be an order of magnitude higher than the purchase price.


       RM
.

2005\03\04@204053 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
I've read that poem so many times; and it never fails to amaze me each time
I find something new in it.

A few readings ago I had the same question. Here are some comments on it:

- He may be justifying his decision by deluding himself as to the importance
of it.

- He may be admitting that it made little difference; "all the difference"
may not be much.

- He may be saying that traveling alone did have an effect because he was
outcast, has seen things from a different point of view, or was just lonely.

All of those apply to the discussion of what we should be doing with our
natural (and other) resources. If I choose to "take the one less traveled
by" and grow my own eggs, heat with wood from my own trees, etc... does it
make a difference? For any of us? Does it make a difference when we decide
to do something in a way that is different from what most of the people do?

- Are we deluding ourselves that we have any effect? There must be a huge
number of butterflies who have flapped their wings in Texas without causing
a hurricane in Florida, but what if the one who did, had not flapped it
wings?

- Would we do it that way without caring that it makes no difference? If we
only do it to make a difference, and it doesn't, why do we do anything?

- Does making that one little change in our path lead us in a direction that
changes OUR OWN lives, if no one else's?

I would very much recommend that anyone interested in these questions see
the movie "Nomads" with Pierce Brosnan.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/B00005V9I1/jamesnewtonpers as it is
an entertaining examination of what happens when you start down a path that
someone else has followed. If you are a reader, try
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0553234226/jamesnewtonpers for the
Chelsea Quinn Yarbro mobilization of that screenplay. This is basically the
argument that parents use against "trying" cigarettes or pot. It leads you
down a path that may result in a sticky end. Of course, if your kid is that
easily led, you may have other problems...

In clinical studies, the effect of a treatment is quite often impossible to
really know due to the passage of time. Who can say how many would have
gotten well anyway? The floridization of water is a classic example. The
change in dental health used to justify it originally may well have been due
to better oral hygiene over the course of the study. The fact that fluoride
is an industrial waste that corporations would otherwise have to pay to
dispose of surly has no influence... A good read on how clinical studies are
done would be great... Let me know if you find one.

I do what I do because it makes me feel better about my life. I talk about
it and publish what I've found (bad and good) in order to brag, in order to
help, and in order to record some of my life for anyone who chooses to care
in the future. Basically all selfish.

And so, I end by saying, BUY LOCAL! Or don't, I will anyway.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\07@192434 by David Minkler

flavicon
face
James,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.  I have no doubt that the choices
we make influence the outcome in both our own lives and those with whom
we make contact.  The common interpretation of Frost implies however
that taking the "path less traveled" results in an improvement.  The
intent of my comment was merely to suggest that, as we cannot travel
both paths and observe both outcomes, we cannot know what the difference
is nor, which outcome was "better".

Incidentally, I applaud your efforts at becoming (at least somewhat)
independent.  At a minimum, it gives you a different perspective on how
these processes work and, who knows, maybe you will come up with a
better mousetrap.  In a crisis, you (and your family) will be better off
because you won't be depending upon an over stressed (broken)
infrastructure to provide your needs.   Additionally, your neighbors
will also be better off because you won't be a load on that already over
stressed infrastructure (which is attempting to provide their needs).  
Further, you may have developed an expedient (efficiency aside) means of
providing at least some of the needed goods and/or services.  Thus, you
help to crisis proof both your own life and that of those around you.  I
think that's a "Good Thing".

Dave

James Newtons Massmind wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>>{Original Message removed}

'[AD] International Shipping WAS New TTL to RS-232'
2005\03\21@174845 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Priority mail is great, BUT: When I have sent things via that method, a
significant percentage of them have simply disappeared in customs. Maybe I
don't fill out the triplicate forms correctly, or maybe it was because I was
shipping to other countries, but I have decided I need to use registered
mail. That way the customs office in the destination country can't say it
didn't arrive. They cost about $7.50 on top of the standard $5 or so for air
mail shipping. Next I have to fill out three forms by hand. I can't print it
from the computer. Then I have to go to the post office and stand in line.
For all of that, I ask a few dollars. The result is $15 Shipping and
Handling.

If YOU want to pay the shipping and YOU take the risk then I would be happy
to send it however you like. Send me $17 + $5 postage and I will order the
Priority mail box from usps.com and when I get it, I will put the unit in
and off it will go to the post box in front of my house. But don't call me
if it doesn't arrive. I will have a picture of it setting there to show you,
and that is it.

If you pay the extra $10, and it gets lost, I will send another one and file
my claim with the USPS to be paid back for the lost one.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\21@181354 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
> Priority mail is great, BUT: When I have sent things via that
> method, a significant percentage of them have simply
> disappeared in customs.

I've sent *hundreds* of packages/letter from Sweden to the US,
aprox 500-600 during 2004 alone, probably over 1.000 total.
And *only* using standard letter airmail, not a single registred
package.

Only one (1) "lost" package around Christmas 2003. That one was
simply replaced with a new one...

I try to keep a low shipping cost. The additinal sells that gives
pays for an occational re-shippment, if ever... YMMV, of course. :-)

Anyway,

> Send me $17 + $5 postage...

I was actualy going to ask for a price on 50 or 100
of them. Incl shipping. Or would it be better to ask
Digital Nemesis directly ?

Jan-Erik.



2005\03\21@184635 by James Newton, Host

face picon face
You should talk to Ash directly.

---
James.



{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\03\21@185753 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> Priority mail is great, BUT: When I have sent things via that
> method, a
> significant percentage of them have simply disappeared in customs.

I have had good results getting books from the USA using the Global
Priority Express envelopes. Could be used for small freight
presumably.


       RM

2005\03\21@211232 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> I was actualy going to ask for a price on 50 or 100
> of them. Incl shipping. Or would it be better to ask
> Digital Nemesis directly ?

I can also provide a good deal on my converter at those quantities.  Contact
me off list if you're interested.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\03\22@043220 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
James,

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:48:38 -0800, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Priority mail is great, BUT: When I have sent things via that method, a
> significant percentage of them have simply disappeared in customs.

I've seen you say this a number of times, and I have been meaning to ask:  How do you know where it
disappeared?  As you're talking about a non-traceable service, how do you know it wasn't post office workers
at either end, baggage handlers (they don't call the world's busiest international airport "thiefrow" for
nothing!), customs-clearance agents, whatever?  I presume you mean Customs at the delivery end since I don't
think they get involved at the sending end, but I don't believe that UK Customs would be into stealing PCBs or
electronics kits!

> Maybe I don't fill out the triplicate forms correctly

I never understand why you do this - whenever I get stuff from the likes of Glitchbuster or Peter Anderson
(both of whom use Global Express) they have just used the little green "CN22" labels, with barely enough room
to write "Electronic parts" and the value.  Who said you need to do the full Customs Declaration?

> or maybe it was because I was shipping to other countries

Well Customs certainly wouldn't have been involved if you didn't!  :-)

> but I have decided I need to use registered
> mail. That way the customs office in the destination country can't say it
> didn't arrive. They cost about $7.50 on top of the standard $5 or so for air
> mail shipping.

At your end, but then at this end it goes by a different route which costs a lot more in Customs clearance
fees - I've paid US$25 before now for them to collect $15 in VAT, so add that to the $7.50 plus $5 you mention
and it can easily double the cost of the goods.  When it comes by Global Priority the clearance fee is US$8,
but the likelihood of them charging the VAT seems to be rather less in the first place.

> Next I have to fill out three forms by hand. I can't print it
> from the computer. Then I have to go to the post office and stand in line.
> For all of that, I ask a few dollars. The result is $15 Shipping and
> Handling.

At your end, but see above!

> If YOU want to pay the shipping and YOU take the risk then I would be happy
> to send it however you like.

This is a change of heart then - previously when I've asked for this, you've said "No"!  :-)

I now have another strategy though: having met on the Internet I now have a girlfriend who lives in New York,
so in future I'll ask you to send it there, and she can send it on (or either of us can carry it next time we
cross the pond).

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\22@052427 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote :

> I now have another strategy though: having met on the
> Internet I now have a girlfriend who lives in New York,
> so in future I'll ask you to send it there, and she can send
> it on (or either of us can carry it next time we
> cross the pond).

Now, that is a creative idea !
Now you only need one in AU to pick up stuff from "down under",
and maybe one in HK to pick up stuff from Peter at DIY, and one in...

:-) :-)

Jan-Erik.



2005\03\22@054549 by Dan Smith

face picon face
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:24:26 +0100 (MET), Jan-Erik Soderholm
<RemoveMEjan-erik.soderholmKILLspamspamRemoveMEtelia.com> wrote:

> Now, that is a creative idea !
> Now you only need one in AU to pick up stuff from "down under",
> and maybe one in HK to pick up stuff from Peter at DIY, and one in...

Hehe, brings an added meaning to 'a girl in every port' :-)

Dan

'[OT] (was AD) International Shipping'
2005\03\22@071753 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Jan-Erik,

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:24:26 +0100 (MET), Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

{Quote hidden}

<Choke!>  One is quite enough, thank you!  (I've heard all about you Swedes!  ;-)

Cheers,



'[AD] International Shipping WAS New TTL to RS-232'
2005\03\22@073405 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

>> Priority mail is great, BUT: When I have sent things via that
>> method, a significant percentage of them have simply
>> disappeared in customs.
>
> I've sent *hundreds* of packages/letter from Sweden to the US,
> aprox 500-600 during 2004 alone, probably over 1.000 total.
> And *only* using standard letter airmail, not a single registred
> package.
>
> Only one (1) "lost" package around Christmas 2003. That one was
> simply replaced with a new one...

I get sometimes stuff shipped to Brazil from Europe or the USA. Standard
mail packages disappear regularly. It's impossible to tell /where/ exactly
they disappear, but since I never had this happen in the countries on the
other end, I suppose it's safe to assume that they disappear on this end
:-/  

Not sure though whether it's in customs or elsewhere, and it's also not
clear whether it's by accident or intentionally.

Moral of the story: It depends a lot on where you ship to. And James's
approach to let the customer choose (and to not take responsibility if it
disappears and he has no way to get reimbursed) makes sense.

Gerhard

2005\03\22@075544 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote :

> I get sometimes stuff shipped to Brazil from Europe or the
> USA. Standard mail packages disappear regularly. It's
> impossible to tell /where/ exactly they disappear, but
> since I never had this happen in the countries on the
> other end, I suppose it's safe to assume that they
> disappear on this end :-/  

One thing is to try to make sure that the letter/package
doesn't look too inviting for those handling it.
Such as printing "512 Mb standard PC memory" on the
outside or something. That package would definitly
disappear at once :-)


> Moral of the story: It depends a lot on where you ship to.
> And James's approach to let the customer choose (and to
> not take  responsibility if it disappears and he has no way
> to get reimbursed) makes sense.

Sure it does !
But that was not specified on the original page (to which
my original note was made).

*I* would have put the cheapest shipping cost
available on the page and then made a note about that "other
shipping options, such as registred mail, available on request".
A (too) high shipping cost drives people away from your site
and products.

Now, it also comes down to the real will of the seller (not talking
about James, but in general) to make intl shipments at all, of course...
:-)

Regards,
Jan-Erik



2005\03\22@144228 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <11373065.1111496143520.JavaMail.tomcat@pne-ps3-sn1>
         Jan-Erik Soderholm <TakeThisOuTjan-erik.soderholmspamtelia.com> wrote:

> One thing is to try to make sure that the letter/package
> doesn't look too inviting for those handling it.
> Such as printing "512 Mb standard PC memory" on the
> outside or something. That package would definitly
> disappear at once :-)

"Electronic components" or "Electronic device" is usually good enough, IME.
Technically a DDR-RAM stick *is* an electronic device (more likely a
component, but that's pretty subjective).
I did have the misfortune of having a parcel go missing once - a motherboard
that was being sent from the US to the UK - the box arrived empty. The CN22
had all the major specs on the board. "AthlonXP + Motherboard". And the
seller wondered why it vanished.

> Now, it also comes down to the real will of the seller (not talking
> about James, but in general) to make intl shipments at all, of course...
> :-)

I try and sell within the UK wherever possible, but I will sell stuff
internationally. I will NOT sell to fraud hotspots - Nigeria, eastern Asia,
that sort of area. I do, however, buy a lot of stuff internationally - mostly
from the USA and Western Europe.

Later.
--
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
spamBeGonephilpemKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTphilpem.me.uk              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Govt investigations contribute more to amusement than knowledge.

2005\03\22@161255 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> I've seen you say this a number of times, and I have been
> meaning to ask:  How do you know where it disappeared?  As
> you're talking about a non-traceable service, how do you know
> it wasn't post office workers at either end, baggage handlers
> (they don't call the world's busiest international airport
> "thiefrow" for nothing!), customs-clearance agents, whatever?
>  I presume you mean Customs at the delivery end since I don't
> think they get involved at the sending end, but I don't
> believe that UK Customs would be into stealing PCBs or
> electronics kits!

I don't really know where it disappeared. I've always used "trackable"
shipping, like Priority Mail and the tracking has always indicated that it
was turned over to customs in the destination country. End of trail. It
could have been customs, their postal service or, just as likely, the
customer cheating me.

> > Maybe I don't fill out the triplicate forms correctly
>
> I never understand why you do this - whenever I get stuff
> from the likes of Glitchbuster or Peter Anderson (both of
> whom use Global Express) they have just used the little green
> "CN22" labels, with barely enough room to write "Electronic
> parts" and the value.  Who said you need to do the full
> Customs Declaration?

I use the CN22. The "triplicate" forms I refer to are 1) the CN22, 2) the
insurance form, 3) the signature proof form. Actually, I don't usually do
the signature proof anymore (only about half ever made it back) and I do
understand that the insurance is a separate thing from customs so it really
is just one form.

> > or maybe it was because I was shipping to other countries
>
> Well Customs certainly wouldn't have been involved if you didn't!  :-)

I meant other than Sweden

{Quote hidden}

If I take a chance and just sent it airmail or even global priority, I have
to increase the price to compensate for the loss and fraud. One way or the
other, it costs more than just the postage. Just to be clear, in the USA,
priority mail is tracked end to end. Global Priority is tracked until it
hits the other country, then it is up to each country to decide how or if
they will track it. The USPS doesn't interface to their tracking even when
they have it online. There may be a better way, but I don't know what it is.
With registered mail, since it is always official and they always collect
the tax they should, they pretty much have to deliver it.

{Quote hidden}

I should stick to my guns. Honestly, since PayPal doesn't support
international shipping the way they support supping inside the USA... Well,
it just isn't worth my time to be honest, unless I get paid at least a few
dollars. With PayPal, shipping inside the USA is a few clicks and a label
prints that I slap on the (free) box and set it out on the way to work. It
keeps track of the tracking number, emails tracking to the customer
automatically, pays for the postage out of the account, does the packing
slip, updates the order status... It's all just automatic. Nothing to
forget.

Put PayPal won't do any of it for international shipping. So you have to:

- Buy the postage (trip to the post office or another account with an online
postage outfit like stamps.com)
- Buy a box
- Manually fill out the customs form
- Print (copy, paste, format, print) or hand write the address on the box
- Add the shipping info to the PayPal order information

And that assumes you are not tracking or insuring the box in any way. Asking
for fraud in other words. To do it right, you also have to:

- Go to the post office and get the tracking or insurance number
- Manually type that tracking number into the PayPal order information.
Don't make a typing error!

> I now have another strategy though: having met on the
> Internet I now have a girlfriend who lives in New York, so in
> future I'll ask you to send it there, and she can send it on
> (or either of us can carry it next time we cross the pond).

Ask her if she is interested in re-shipping orders to other people for me.
<GRIN>

---
James.



2005\03\22@164455 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> > Priority mail is great, BUT: When I have sent things via
> that method,
> > a significant percentage of them have simply disappeared in customs.
>
> I've sent *hundreds* of packages/letter from Sweden to the
> US, aprox 500-600 during 2004 alone, probably over 1.000 total.
> And *only* using standard letter airmail, not a single
> registred package.
>
> Only one (1) "lost" package around Christmas 2003. That one
> was simply replaced with a new one...

Shipping INTO the USA isn't a problem, or at least that is what I'd like to
believe. Our postal employees take their frustration out on each other not
on the mail. <SAD GRIN> And shipping into Sweden may not be a problem
either, I haven't had any orders from there so I don't know. Other countries
ARE a problem. Knowing which is a trick, and even the "good" ones seem to
have problems some times.


2005\03\22@165231 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Actually, I don't usually do
> the signature proof anymore (only about half ever made it
> back)

I am otherwise very pleased with world-wide postal services, but I too
stopped using signature proof (return signature?). The return rate is
indeed about 50%, and that is consistent with: when I get a package with
signature required in roughly half the cases the postman just hands it
over (without requiring the signature).

My loss rate is roughly 1 in 200. But the excessive delay rate is
somethat higher, the record is 2 month for a package within my country.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\03\23@055204 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>> Priority mail is great, BUT: When I have sent things via that
>> method, a
>> significant percentage of them have simply disappeared in customs.

Just got a priority mail parcel from Digikey today. 10 days ish from
USA to NZ and far far cheaper than alternatives.



       RM

2005\03\23@131514 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face

> >> Priority mail is great, BUT: When I have sent things via
> that method,
> >> a significant percentage of them have simply disappeared
> in customs.
>
> Just got a priority mail parcel from Digikey today. 10 days
> ish from USA to NZ and far far cheaper than alternatives.

And I'm sure there are millions of other examples of Global Priority Mail
working just fine. But my experience was that it doesn't always work.
Sometimes it gets lost, and when it does, the USPS isn't able to help /
insure / offer proof of the delivery. With Registered mail, they pop to /
pay off / and will happily show that it was turned over to customs and even
get you the signature of the customs agent who signed for it. They take
registered mail REALLY seriously.

---
James.




'[OT] International rescue - Russian mini submaine '
2005\08\06@021841 by Russell McMahon
face
flavicon
face
Russian mini sub in "deep" trouble
This time the Russians are doing it right.

       http://euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_info&article=303088&lng=1

Anything may happen, but (reportedly) within hours of having problems
the Russians asked for help and airborne experts and equipment (incl
deep submersible) is being sent from US and UK. Arrival time about 12
hours and sub reportedly has enough air to last until Monday so ...

It gave me a surprisingly warm fuzzy feeling to see (on TV of course)
a large US aircraft lifting off to go to the aid of another nation's
sailors half a world away.

Lots more here

       http://news.google.co.nz/news?q=russian+mini+submarine&num=100&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr

or here

       http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=russian+mini+submarine&meta=





       RM

'[OT] International Satellite Reception'
2005\08\13@190857 by Marcel Birthelmer

flavicon
face
Hi all,
in light of the upcoming 2006 soccer world cup (and the recent start of
the '05/'06 bundesliga season), this displaced German was wondering if
anyone has any experience receiving european satellite TV in the US.
I've done some searching online and found a decent overview of satellite
information at http://www.hf.uib.no/smi/ksv/satfaq.html , but no
information on receiving signals from, say, Astra1 stateside. Any ideas?
- Marcel

2005\08\14@143619 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Marcel,

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:12:33 -0700, Marcel Birthelmer wrote:

> Hi all,
> in light of the upcoming 2006 soccer world cup (and the recent start of
> the '05/'06 bundesliga season), this displaced German was wondering if
> anyone has any experience receiving european satellite TV in the US.
> I've done some searching online and found a decent overview of satellite
> information at http://www.hf.uib.no/smi/ksv/satfaq.html , but no
> information on receiving signals from, say, Astra1 stateside. Any ideas?

I think you'd have very little chance of success - even on the East coast of the USA you'd be *well* outside
the footprint, and any signal that does go that way is going to be really weak.  Have you investigated whether
it would be available on the Internet?

Cheers,
Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\08\14@152900 by Vidal

flavicon
face
Marcel Birthelmer wrote:

> Hi all,
> in light of the upcoming 2006 soccer world cup (and the recent start
> of the '05/'06 bundesliga season), this displaced German was wondering
> if anyone has any experience receiving european satellite TV in the
> US. I've done some searching online and found a decent overview of
> satellite information at http://www.hf.uib.no/smi/ksv/satfaq.html ,
> but no information on receiving signals from, say, Astra1 stateside.
> Any ideas?
> - Marcel

I think the World Cup will be covered by Espor. As far as I know,
they usually do.

--
Regards

Vidal

2005\08\14@162301 by Marcel Birthelmer

flavicon
face
Howard Winter wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I would love for there to be an internet solution, but it really doesn't
seem like anyone is investing in a webcast infrastructure. Also, I'm not
sure if it would allow live broadcasts anyway. And I know that DirecTV
and Dish do have their pay-$5000-per-month-for-this-channel european
sports programs, but I don't want to commit to something like that.
Thanks for the input, though.
- Marcel

2005\08\15@140707 by Vidal

flavicon
face
Vidal wrote:

>
> Espor


Sorry. ESPN!

2005\08\15@142647 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 20:07 +0200, Vidal wrote:
> Vidal wrote:
>
> >
> > Espor
>
>
> Sorry. ESPN!

It really is a shame that there isn't a "more free" way to get TV from
other parts of the world.

Case in point: I'm sure noone has heard of it, but the Dakar rally is a
favourite of mine to watch. Until this year Speed Channel carried it,
and they basically just took the British feed, which was perfect.

This past year however, Speed channel didn't pick up the rally, instead
Outdoor Life Network did. Instead of broadcasting the British feed they
tried to do it themselves. The result? A DISASTER. They took an 18 day
rally and turned it into 6 1 hour episodes, broadcast WEEKS after the
rally was OVER??!?. A complete joke. On top of that the hosts were
TERRIBLE and obviously had NO idea what even a rally was...

Fortunately for me, I was in Europe for the first week of the rally, so
I got to watch the British feed, which was even better this year then
the last. Every night they had 1.5hours of show, plus two 15 minute LIVE
updates (from the middle of the Sahara over sat phones) each day.

For the second half of the Rally I was back in North America, happily
downloading the British feed over the internet.

When the OLN "version" aired I didn't even bother watching it all, it
was that bad.

I've researched ways of getting Eurosport over in Canada, even willing
to pay for it (although it's completely free in Europe), but I've had no
luck.

Sorry for the rant, but I thought it might bring another perspective to
the discussion. TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\08\15@172106 by marcel

flavicon
face
Didn't someone die in the most recent Dakar?
Anyway, yes, I definitely see your point. And for my interests, it's even more
specific to the region. I know DirecTV and DishNet both have "European sports"
channels that might show one or two soccer games a week, but at that point
you'd already be paying the base fee plus a whole bunch of other stuff, along
with a 1-year contract or something like that. Plus, for more esoteric
channels, you need a "SuperDish" in some cases, which is another unjustifiable
expense.
sigh...
- Marcel


{Quote hidden}

2005\08\15@173835 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 17:21 -0400, EraseMEmarcel.....spamKILLspamcarrietech.com wrote:
> Didn't someone die in the most recent Dakar?

Unfortunately more then one, two riders at least come to mind (one being
Meoni IIRC), along with a few spectators.

Very sad, and although the Dakar isn't known for being 100% safe, the
number of deaths this year was unusual (2004 I believe had no deaths,
and 2003 had 1).

Anyways, certainly looking forward to next year's Dakar, hopefully it'll
have a happier ending.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\08\16@070424 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:

> It really is a shame that there isn't a "more free" way to get TV from
> other parts of the world.
[...]
> (although it's completely free in Europe),

While I agree that it might be "more convenient" to get "more free" TV
programs, and also agree that it would help many things if the "more light"
type of information TV provides would be "more easily" available from other
countries, TV is by no means "completely free" in Europe.

TV production in Europe costs the same (if not more) than in the USA and
other places. The "free" programs you watch there are paid for by the taxes
of the residents of the place. It therefore makes a lot of sense that they
-- besides their taxes -- don't pay any more for it (that's why it seems to
be "free"), whereas if you watch it on a cable or satellite channel from
far away, the feed is not free at all -- after all, the viewers of that
feed don't pay taxes in the country where that program comes from. While
you are there, you are kind of a guest and don't have to pay for watching
it, even though you don't pay taxes there.

There is no free lunch, not even in Europe. There's always somebody paying
for it. And it seems only natural for me that European public TV would not
put their feeds out for free internationally, but rather charge whatever
the market price is. (That said, there are of course some free
international programs. But they always have some kind of "public"
objective, like promoting the originating country's culture.)

Gerhard


'International shipping. Was: RE: [OT]on ebay,o'
2006\04\27@084624 by Picdude
flavicon
face
Probably due to the hassle?  For me (in the US), when I have to ship anywhere outside the U.S., UPS is expensive, and I don't do Fedex since they're very unreliable, so customers choose USPS Global Express with Insurance.  (If I don't offer USPS, then they won't buy due to the high shipping cost).  But USPS is still a pain.  Sometimes their website lets me create the order completely...that's rare.  Sometimes it does not let me put insurance on.  Sometimes I'll fill out and print the customs forms online, but the post office says that they don't recognize that, so I need to re-fill out their in-store version of the form.  And sometimes they want to see what's in the package before it's sealed up.  In all but the first situation, I have to physically go over to the post office and wait in line.  Major hassle and burns lots of time.  I usually print out a tech doc or take a magazine so I can catch up on some reading when I have to go to the post office.

-Neil.



> ---{Original Message removed}

'International shipping. Was: RE: [OT]on ebay,one g'
2006\04\27@090616 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 4/27/06, Picdude <spampicdudespamnarwani.net> wrote:
> Probably due to the hassle?  For me (in the US), when I have to ship anywhere outside the U.S., UPS is expensive, and I don't do Fedex since they're very unreliable, so customers choose USPS Global Express with Insurance.  (If I don't offer USPS, then they won't buy due to the high shipping cost).  But USPS is still a pain.  Sometimes their website lets me create the order completely...that's rare.  Sometimes it does not let me put insurance on.  Sometimes I'll fill out and print the customs forms online, but the post office says that they don't recognize that, so I need to re-fill out their in-store version of the form.  And sometimes they want to see what's in the package before it's sealed up.  In all but the first situation, I have to physically go over to the post office and wait in line.  Major hassle and burns lots of time.  I usually print out a tech doc or take a magazine so I can catch up on some reading when I have to go to the post office.
>

I think the USPS service are not bad from my limited past experience. The queue
was in general longer and the process was a bit longer but the price was right.

In Singapore the postal service is also good. I shiped my failed Dell
600M back to US using the postal service since it was much cheaper.
There was a problem with insurance though. My friend sent back the
notebook to me using Fedex though since the price was oaky from US.

Still I will prefer to use Fedex/UPS/DHL for internation shipping. The tracking
system of the postal service is not as good as Fedex/UPS/DHL. I do not
think Fedex is "very unriable". In fact I used Fedex most often since to me it
is better associated to fast shipping than the other two.


Regards,
Xiaofan

'International shipping. Was: RE: [OT]on =?utf-8?b?'
2006\04\28@025847 by Peter

picon face
Picdude <picdude <at> narwani.net> writes:

>Probably due to the hassle?  For me (in the US), when I have to ship anywhere
>outside the U.S., UPS is expensive, and I don't do Fedex since they're very
>unreliable, so customers choose USPS Global Express with Insurance.  (If I
>don't offer USPS, then they won't buy due to the high shipping cost).

The way I see it, wasting time waiting at the post office for the 2 employees to
get things done cannot be worth it for small packages. E.g. wasting one hour to
send a $10 package is crazy. Even for a $100 package wasting an hour is not on
the sane side imho. Since one can't charge for the wasted time.

It follows that small packages are to be sent from home, medium packages are not
to be sent from home, and large ones even less so.

So one should concentrate on small packages/items only ? (something with very
high value/weight ratio ?) - just kidding

Peter


'International shipping. Was: RE: [OT]on ebay,one g'
2006\04\28@104022 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Peter wrote:

> So one should concentrate on small packages/items only ? (something with very
> high value/weight ratio ?) - just kidding

I think I've read that they are starting to use the postal services to send
cocaine and similar products. Pretty high value/weight ratio... :)

Gerhard


'[EE]:: Crossing international dateline disables F2'
2007\04\11@084557 by Apptech
face
flavicon
face
6 out of 8 $US125M F22 air superiority fighters on a 12 hour+  flight from Hawaii to Okinawa reportedly had many of their computer systems crash as they crossed the international dateline. The systems were unable to be rebooted by pilots. The aircraft apparently retained full control of the engine management and flight control systems but lost many other systems. As they were flying with tanker aircraft they were able to turn back and use the tankers navigation systems for support.

       http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6225

While the full details of what did and didn't get affected are not being revealed by the Air Force it's clear that  areal problem did occur.
The above link gives both an account of what (allegedly) happened plus an extensive public discussion. While much of the discussion is about as valuable as one has come to expect of internet forums there are some gems therein relating to the F22, F35, F15c and aircraft which they may be expected to "compete" against.

The episode is a superb example of a Y2K type bug and of how severe such things can be in real life.

On another facet of the F22 - probably not discussable in detail on this list, the amazing superiority ratios claimed in some reports for the F22 inm simulated encounters are put into some perspective by the apparently informed comments headed "F-22 is the 1337" by Red Thunder on 3/6/2007. This suggests that the real world superiority ratios may fall to somewhere below 5:1 in real world situations and maybe below 2:1 on occasion.





       Russell


'[EE]:: International cyber attack exercise today'
2008\03\09@172242 by Apptech
face
flavicon
face

       http://www.stuff.co.nz/4431941a28.html


The computer systems of dozens of New Zealand businesses and
government agencies will come under attack today during
Cyber Storm II -- a huge international simulation designed
to test preparedness to deal with a "national scale" cyber
attack.


The multimillion-dollar exercise is being co-ordinated by
the US Department of Homeland Security and also involves
Australia, Britain and Canada.

Organisations from each country are contributing
"planners" - who will act the role of hackers - and
"players", who will try to cope with what is thrown at them.

Details of the scenarios are being kept secret, but reports
in the US say Cyber Storm II will simulate both cyber and
physical attacks on chemical companies, while in Australia
water supplies will be threatened.

Paul McKitrick, business manager at the Centre for Critical
Infrastructure Protection, says the scenarios played out in
New Zealand will focus on the financial, energy, IT and
government sectors.

Sixty planners from 24 organisations, including most of the
major banks and telcos, Transpower, the Defence Force and
the Government Communications Security Bureau will organise
the mock attacks.



...

2008\03\09@173522 by Jinx

face picon face
>         http://www.stuff.co.nz/4431941a28.html

Let's hope it goes better than this

http://www.newsobserver.com//news/story/968432.html


'[OT] International Wires / International Forwarder'
2008\07\03@230402 by Forrest W Christian
flavicon
face
As I do more and more business overseas, I'm getting more and more
irritated with both the local banks and with the shipping companies who
seem to like to take you to the cleaners as soon as you say "international".

I know some on the list do international import/export type work, so I'm
hoping that some of you might point me in the right direction.

First, I'm having nothing but problems finding somewhere I can easily
send and receive international wires.  My bank charges $10US for
incoming, and $50US for outgoing wires.   Plus, on the incoming side
they don't have a SWIFT code so I can't easily receive wires from the
rest of the planet which uses the SWIFT wire transfer system.

I am aware of xetrade for outgoing wires, but it also requires the
foreign account to be denominated in something other than USD.  Plus,
the currencies are limited - for instance, I have a vendor who wants
either RMB or USD.  USD is not an option since I am in the US, and a
currency conversion is required.   And RMB is not a supported currency.
 So that doesn't work for me.   Plus, they don't support inbound.

I have also checked with the banks easily available to me (Wells Fargo,
US Bank, and several regional/local banks), and although a couple have a
SWIFT code for inbound, they want a lot for each transfer.  I have a
hard time telling a customer to include an extra $50 for the bank fees
when the product is usually only a couple hundred dollars.   Also, for
outbound, all of them require masses of paperwork.

I would really like to find somewhere where I can, preferrably online,
insert an order to remove X dollars from my USD account, and transfer it
to this international account.   Ideally, the same vendor would handle
inbound transfers as well for a reasonable price.  My understanding is
HSBC does this, but being in Montana prevents me from opening the
appropriate commerical account.

The second problem is moving freight in a reasonably-cost-sensitive way.
 If I originate a shipment from this end, it can easily cost thousands
of dollars to move even a modest amount of product.  An example of this
is a recent purchase of power supplies.  90kg of supples, 6 boxes.  I
ended up wiring the vendor the money, and it cost something like
$600USD.  If I had used my DHL or UPS import account, it would have been
more like $2000USD.  The part I didn't find funny was that the $600USD
was shipping via DHL - If they ship on an account in Shenzen china, they
charge $600USD - but if you order the exact same shipment on the US
side, they charge $1800.  Go figure. Another gross example was the
shipping costs related to bringing in one rather small (12x12x12) box of
cables was something like $800, since the vendor didn't have a
relationship with a shipping company on the foreign side.

Because of this I'd really like to find some way to move (even if it
takes a couple of weeks) reasonably sized items into the states without
paying an arm and a leg.  I think what I am looking for is an
international forwarder, but there are lots of them out there and none
seem to be what I want.   I simply want to be able to say "there are x
packages weighing x, containing x at the factory - bring them to me, and
I need them in 3 weeks", and they show up at my door for a reasonable cost.

Ideas?

-forrest

2008\07\04@004125 by Roger, in Bangkok

face
flavicon
face
Freight forwarders, aka consolidators, work based on partnerships with
like-feathered companies in the foreign country.  You need to go to your
local guy and tell him what country(s) you want to ship to/from.  He will
have or will a partners as close as possible.  If you want goods shipped to
you, go to the local guy after making your arrangements with the foreign
supplier and verifying goods are ready to go.  Then your local guy will
issue a pickup request to his overseas counterpart who will send his truck
to the supplier.  Then he takes the goods, packs it up, initiates the
paperwork with copies to your guy ... everything is done through harmonized
codes and goods are (should!) already be cleared for you before they
arrive.  Same thing more or less for shipping, but give your guy time to
find a partner.

What these people do is consolidate many shipments into a single container
so their profit potentials are huge and you can leverage that for good rates
if you're doing ongoing business with them.  If you don't need something
ASAP, tell them, they may have a container due to go out next week that is
only 1/3 full, so they can pick up 100% profit on anything they can squeeze
into it.  Weight is never a factor except in exceptional cases ... container
shipping costs are based on volume.

If you're in the states, call SBA (small business administration).  they
have tons of good solid helpful information for free.  They also have (or at
least used to) a thing called CORE ... corps of retired executives who
voluntarily mentor people through such things as this.

Good luck!

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok

On 7/4/08, Forrest W Christian <forrestcSTOPspamspamimach.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\07\04@012749 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Forrest W Christian wrote:
> First, I'm having nothing but problems finding somewhere I can easily
> send and receive international wires.  My bank charges $10US for
> incoming, and $50US for outgoing wires.   Plus, on the incoming side
> they don't have a SWIFT code so I can't easily receive wires from the
> rest of the planet which uses the SWIFT wire transfer system.

We're in the same boat. Our bank is Wells Fargo, they charge $35 per
outgoing wire.

Until recently, the biggest problem was not the fee, but the actual process
of initiating the T/T. Go to the branch, wait in line, meet with a banker,
wait for him to fill out a 2-page legal-size paper form, call a week later
to find that the transfer was never sent... >:-(

Now, we have set up "recurring wire tranfer" that allows us to send wires to
certain vendors, by phone.

> I would really like to find somewhere where I can, preferrably online,
> insert an order to remove X dollars from my USD account, and transfer it
> to this international account.

Me too. [Wouter, feel free to remind us again how great the European banking
system is, compared to the US.]  ;)

{Quote hidden}

If I didn't know better, I would swear you worked in our purchasing
department. :-)  We found the same to be true -- DHL, FedEx, and UPS charge
far more if we use our account, versus allowing the supplier to use theirs.
FedEx rep's explanation didn't make any sense ("fuel costs are lower in
Elbonia compared to US").

{Quote hidden}

One company we worked with is DFDS. Lately though, we mostly deal with
companies that arrange the shipping on their end.

Vitaliy





2008\07\04@020109 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Me too. [Wouter, feel free to remind us again how great the European banking
> system is, compared to the US.]  ;)

But it did force PayPal into existence! Would using PP be an alternative?

Otherwise, find a trusted pal living inside the 'european' style banking
system (no, not me, I can't be trusted!) . My favorite large-quantity
(for me that is > 10 ) PCB house is in HongKong, but a Dutch guy is
serving as front-end for them. Very convenient.

Or: are you allowed to open an account in a foreign land yourself? IIRC
I once cehcked and I was allowed to open an account in Belgium, but
maybe that does not count as foreign :)

Or vote for a next president who promises to change the banking system.
Do any of the candidates care?

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\07\04@022640 by Forrest W Christian

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> But it did force PayPal into existence! Would using PP be an alternative?

For most of the vendors, no.

> Otherwise, find a trusted pal living inside the 'european' style banking
> system (no, not me, I can't be trusted!) . My favorite large-quantity
> (for me that is > 10 ) PCB house is in HongKong, but a Dutch guy is
> serving as front-end for them. Very convenient.

My favorite PCB house is "PCBFabrication.com" which does the same
thing..   At least as far as I can tell.  All the work is done overseas,
but with a local US contact (I think only one or two guys here in the
US), which handles things like the CC transactions, etc.   Shipping is
cheap also.

On the other hand, the injection molded cable company I am working with
also has 1-2 people here in the US, but they haven't figured out how to
make this work..  I think I paid $1US each to have some 6" long cables
moved in...  There has to be a better way.

> Or: are you allowed to open an account in a foreign land yourself? IIRC
> I once cehcked and I was allowed to open an account in Belgium, but
> maybe that does not count as foreign :)

I should perhaps check on that...  Open a foreign currency account
somewhere and use xetrade to move funds there...   I'll have to see what
I can figure out there.

> Or vote for a next president who promises to change the banking system.
> Do any of the candidates care?

I think the problem is that domestically, the US banking system works
well enough that for most people it isn't an issue

-forrest

2008\07\04@025108 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Forrest W Christian wrote:
>> Or: are you allowed to open an account in a foreign land yourself? IIRC
>> I once cehcked and I was allowed to open an account in Belgium, but
>> maybe that does not count as foreign :)
>
> I should perhaps check on that...  Open a foreign currency account
> somewhere and use xetrade to move funds there...   I'll have to see what
> I can figure out there.

Can you please drop me a note if you're successful?

>> Or vote for a next president who promises to change the banking system.
>> Do any of the candidates care?
>
> I think the problem is that domestically, the US banking system works
> well enough that for most people it isn't an issue

Is this not something banks themselves should fix?

Vitaliy

2008\07\04@030224 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> My favorite PCB house is "PCBFabrication.com" which does the same
> thing..

For all we know behind the scenes the same Chinese factory might serve
us both :)

> I think the problem is that domestically, the US banking system works
> well enough that for most people it isn't an issue

yeah, and when you say "domestically" that's the same (in number of
people) when I say EC-wide. Maybe the UK will change over at some time
and take you with them.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\07\04@033542 by Forrest W Christian

flavicon
face
Vitaliy wrote:
>> I think the problem is that domestically, the US banking system works
>> well enough that for most people it isn't an issue
>
> Is this not something banks themselves should fix?

Yes, and it will probably happen eventually, as we go more and more
electronic in the US.  I'm already seeing things like banks permitting
online ACH origination by individuals to non-owned accounts.   I think
it will just take time.

We could discuss the whole credit card fraud risk being passed onto the
merchant issue (instead of the credit card issuer or the card owner -
who both are in a better position to prevent the fraud in the first
place), but that is way off this discussion and I don't necessarily
wan't to get this thread off-topic (with the hope that someone will add
just the right piece of information to solve my dilemma).

-forrest

2008\07\04@062014 by Djula Djarmati

flavicon
face
> Forrest W Christian wrote:
>>> Or: are you allowed to open an account in a foreign land yourself? IIRC
>>> I once cehcked and I was allowed to open an account in Belgium, but
>>> maybe that does not count as foreign :)
>> I should perhaps check on that...  Open a foreign currency account
>> somewhere and use xetrade to move funds there...   I'll have to see what
>> I can figure out there.
>
> Can you please drop me a note if you're successful?

I don't think you can do that legally, the IRS very actively prohibits
US residents from keeping their money in foreign banks.

One example http://www.internaxx.lu

Incoming bank transfer fee - free
Outgoing bank transfer fee (EU) - free
Outgoing bank transfer fee (outside EU) - 10 EUR

BUT: "Please note that we are not able to accept US residents or US
citizens as customers."

Djula

2008\07\04@064155 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I don't think you can do that legally, the IRS very actively prohibits
> US residents from keeping their money in foreign banks.

But does that also apply to a US (one-man) company?

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\07\04@072700 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Forrest W Christian wrote:

>> Or vote for a next president who promises to change the banking system.
>> Do any of the candidates care?
>
> I think the problem is that domestically, the US banking system works
> well enough that for most people it isn't an issue

"Well enough" only for someone who never experienced it otherwise -- I
still remember the feeling of being set back by a few centuries when
arriving in the "promised land" and doing my first banking things :) Also,
I think there are enough big players in the market (like CC companies and
PayPal and the like) that don't want a well-working banking system because
they make their money because there isn't one... I wouldn't hold my breath
for this to ever change.

But to get back to your question, I don't think the European banking system
helps much when crossing the EU border. AFAIK, wire transfers are generally
expensive there, too.

I've just sent my first transaction with Xoom.com. AFAICT, they are the
cheapest to send money to pretty much anywhere. When comparing the cost of
sending money internationally, you have at least four cost items: the
sender's fees, the recipient's fees, the exchange spread and the work
involved to set up the transfer. It's not only about the sender's fees; the
exchange spread can be substantial. You can check that by going to e.g.
Xoom's site and start setting up a transfer, and it'll tell you what
exchange rate they give you. Then you call your bank's wire department, and
ask them what rate they'd give you if you sent a wire now.

There went something wrong with my transaction, but it seems they are
resolving this in an acceptable manner.

Gerhard

2008\07\04@073116 by Djula Djarmati

flavicon
face
>> I don't think you can do that legally, the IRS very actively prohibits
>> US residents from keeping their money in foreign banks.
>
> But does that also apply to a US (one-man) company?

That is a very good question, if you could open an account in EU or Hong
Kong it would be very easy to send/receive money.

Please let us what you find out.

Djula

2008\07\04@074433 by Chris Smolinski

flavicon
face
>  >> I don't think you can do that legally, the IRS very actively prohibits
>>>  US residents from keeping their money in foreign banks.
>>
>>  But does that also apply to a US (one-man) company?
>
>That is a very good question, if you could open an account in EU or Hong
>Kong it would be very easy to send/receive money.
>
>Please let us what you find out.

Let's be clear here. The IRS doesn't prohibit you from having a
foreign bank account. If you have one, you need to report the assets
in the account, for tax purposes.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148845,00.html

--

---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

2008\07\04@074934 by Roger, in Bangkok

face
flavicon
face
Since when?

If we have signature authority on foreign accounts where more than 10,000
USD has been transferred in a single transaction then the account details
have to be reported to US Treasury department, but only after the
transaction and no restrictions otherwise.

We do have to report all profits from off shore accounts and transactions
for tax accounting purposes.

Where we have our money is in no way restricted.  When we use our money in
illegal ways then we pay the penalties ... I assume that is the same for
most people in the world.

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok

On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Djula Djarmati <piclistSTOPspamspamKILLspamsbb.co.yu> wrote:

> > ...
>
> I don't think you can do that legally, the IRS very actively prohibits
> US residents from keeping their money in foreign banks.
> ...

2008\07\04@080101 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> But to get back to your question, I don't think the European banking system
> helps much when crossing the EU border. AFAIK, wire transfers are generally
> expensive there, too.

a few figures (rounded:

E 1200.00 (to China) charge E 5.00 (probably split charges)
E 1200.00 (to UK) charge E 5.00 (split charges)
E 4000.00 (to China) charge E 20.00 (charges on me)

Domestic transfers and transfers within the Euro-countries are charged ~
E0.10 (I don't know the exact figure, it is too low to bother).

Note that this is all done from behind my PC, zero paper work, no trip
to the bank. I don't even know if my bank has physical offices or where
those could be.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\07\04@083348 by Djula Djarmati

flavicon
face
Roger, in Bangkok wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Ok, I had this impression since many reputable banks have the "NO US
RESIDENTS" warning.
So, the OP can open an account in Hong Kong or EU and pay online and
cheaply. Again, please let us know how this works out.

Djula

2008\07\04@090330 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>But to get back to your question, I don't think the European banking
>system helps much when crossing the EU border. AFAIK, wire transfers
>are generally expensive there, too.

Too true - if I want a UK bank to transfer funds to an EU account I pay
something like GBP30 - around US$60 - for the privilege. This sis even
though the UK is in the EU zone, but because it still has its own currency
it is not in the Euro zone.

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