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'In-Circuit Programming'
1997\04\28@194323 by Daniel Holt

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Does anyone know of a WWW addess that has the "Reference Documents" that
are described in the Microchip databooks?  Specifically, I am looking
for the details of In-Circuit programming of a 16C62A.  The manual
refers to Reference Doc. #DS30228.  Any details would be appriciated
(including any hardware, schematics, download code, etc...)
--
Daniel Holt - Genetronics Inc.

spam_OUTdholtTakeThisOuTspamgenetronics.com
http://www.genetronics.com
http://rohan.sdsu.edu/home/holt/index.html

1997\04\28@200408 by Brian Boles

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    Try http://www.microchip2.com/products/micros/mid/index.htm for a
    index to all mid-range device sheets or
    www.microchip2.com/download/lit/progspec/30228f.pdf
    specifically.  Or just start a //http://www.microchip.com for everything.

    Rgds, Brian.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: In-Circuit Programming
Author:  Daniel Holt <.....dholtKILLspamspam@spam@GENETRONICS.COM> at Internet_Exchange
Date:    4/28/97 4:30 PM


Does anyone know of a WWW addess that has the "Reference Documents" that
are described in the Microchip databooks?  Specifically, I am looking
for the details of In-Circuit programming of a 16C62A.  The manual
refers to Reference Doc. #DS30228.  Any details would be appriciated
(including any hardware, schematics, download code, etc...)
--
Daniel Holt - Genetronics Inc.

dholtspamKILLspamgenetronics.com
http://www.genetronics.com
http://rohan.sdsu.edu/home/holt/index.html

1997\04\30@171555 by Daniel Holt

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I am interested in In-Circuit Programming some parts in a future
system.  Is it possible to simply take the four or so lines required to
program a part (and assuming I leave the required pins free on the
board) use my pic-start programmer to do the programming by taking the
relevant data lines from the ZIF socket to a socket on the board?  This
seams like an easy way to do this by just making a jumper cable of
sorts.  Any reason this wouldn't work?
--
Daniel Holt - Genetronics Inc.
.....dholtKILLspamspam.....genetronics.com
http://www.genetronics.com
http://rohan.sdsu.edu/home/holt/index.html

1997\04\30@183911 by Don McKenzie

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Daniel Holt wrote:
>
> I am interested in In-Circuit Programming some parts in a future
> system.  Is it possible to simply take the four or so lines required to
> program a part (and assuming I leave the required pins free on the
> board) use my pic-start programmer to do the programming by taking the
> relevant data lines from the ZIF socket to a socket on the board?  This
> seams like an easy way to do this by just making a jumper cable of
> sorts.  Any reason this wouldn't work?
> Daniel Holt - Genetronics Inc.

No, you will find a circuit of just that using a 4PDT switch to do the
job. In the case of 84's, it means target board programming on the fly.
That is, a load/go switch.
http://www.dontronics.com/84.html

Also some helpful hints at:
http://www.dontronics.com/hints.html

Don McKenzie  EraseMEdonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTdontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

PICSTART and Newfound PIC Programmers Firmware Upgrades.
SLI, the serial LCD that auto detects baud rates from 100 to 125K bps.
SimmStick(tm) A PIC proto PCB the size of a 30 pin Simm Memory Module.
Send a blank message to helpspamspam_OUTdontronics.com for more info.

1997\04\30@193531 by John Payson

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>>
I am interested in In-Circuit Programming some parts in a future
system.  Is it possible to simply take the four or so lines required to
program a part (and assuming I leave the required pins free on the
board) use my pic-start programmer to do the programming by taking the
relevant data lines from the ZIF socket to a socket on the board?  This
seams like an easy way to do this by just making a jumper cable of
sorts.  Any reason this wouldn't work?
<<

There are potential problems with this approach, depending upon the design
of your programmer.  Perhaps somewhat oddly, the cheaper the programmer the
more likely this approach will work.  Your most likely problems will be with
programmers that use parallel programming algorithms (most of the wires won't
be available), or that do fancy things with VDD, or that monitor current
consumption, etc.  I would expect any "dirtball" type programmer should work
fine.


Attachment converted: wonderland:WINMAIL.DAT 1 (????/----) (0000EED8)

1997\04\30@234317 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 18:58 30/04/97 -0500, John Payson wrote:
>>Is it possible to simply take the four or so lines required to
>>program a part (and assuming I leave the required pins free on the
>>board) use my pic-start programmer to do the programming by taking the
>>relevant data lines from the ZIF socket to a socket on the board?
>
>There are potential problems with this approach, depending upon the design
>of your programmer.  Perhaps somewhat oddly, the cheaper the programmer the
>more likely this approach will work.  ...

Does somebody know whether Microchip's PICStart Plus does such "fancy"
things you mentioned? Or does it work as intended in this configuration?

Gerhard


'In-Circuit Programming'
1997\05\01@040706 by mike
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In message  <@spam@3367B5A3.5842KILLspamspamgenetronics.com> KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU writes:
> I am interested in In-Circuit Programming some parts in a future
> system.  Is it possible to simply take the four or so lines required to
> program a part (and assuming I leave the required pins free on the
> board) use my pic-start programmer to do the programming by taking the
> relevant data lines from the ZIF socket to a socket on the board?  This
> seams like an easy way to do this by just making a jumper cable of
> sorts.  Any reason this wouldn't work?
> --

Daniel,

I am just about to embark on this route myself with surface mount
versions of the 12C508.

One gotcha that I am aware of is that the oscillator must not be
allowed to run or the program counter gets advanced before you
start the programming cycle and your code ends up in the wrong
place in memory.

Good luck and please keep us posted.


Regards,


Mike Watson

1997\05\01@104441 by Gregg Kricorissian

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At 18:58 30/04/97 -0500, Gerhard asked:

>>... use my pic-start programmer to do the programming by taking the
>>relevant data lines from the ZIF socket to a socket on the board?
>
>Does somebody know whether Microchip's PICStart Plus does such "fancy"
>things you mentioned? Or does it work as intended in this configuration?


Having just designed a product implementing In-Circuit Programming, I can
offer some help.  First as long as your target PIC supports serial
programming (like the 16C84), then yes, the PICstart Plus will work .... as
will the PRO MATE.  The PROMATE has the advantage that it will margin-test
the intergrity of the part, but oddly does not have the  drive capacity of
its cheaper cousin.

You must be careful to take adequate precautions in the target system.  The
Embedded Control Handbook has a *very* short section on this topic, but
their application circuit can't work as printed ... the  suggested approach
to insert a diode to "isolate" the reset circuit cannot function as required.

The primary objective is to design your target system in such a way as to
make the PIC's pins available externally, without loading the programmer.
Microchip's Document number ICP001 describes the considerations, and
suggests a driver board that will buffer the MCLR and Vdd pins.  However,
you are still left to deal with RB6 & 7.

Microchip neglects to mention it, but the issue is complicated by the fact
that RB7 must be a bi-directional data path, since it must both read and
write the PIC.  Thus, hanging a buffer on that line will do yo no good at
all... (bet you can guess how I know that little tid-bit).  And, depending
on your programmer's algorithm, if it programs a block od code, and then
verifies it before proceeding, then you're really stuck... it will give up
without programming more than the first block.

In my product, I brought the required signals (Vdd, Vss, MCLR, RB6, anb RB7)
to a 7 pin header.  The outer-most 4 pins normally have shunts across them,
so that when they are removed, you break the connections to Vdd and MCLR to
the rest of the board.  The cable to the PICstart is a short (6") cable that
connects the appropriate header pins in the target board to an 18 pin plug
that goes into the ZIF socket.  The thing to watch is that RB6 & 7 must not
be loaded too much by the application circuit, so it's best if they are used
as inputs by your application.  That being the case, you can safely use 4K7
ohm resistors to isolate the PIC's pins from the rest of the cirucuit.

For the production version, I use the PROMATE, with an interface box that
includes buffers on the unidirectional signals, and a short, shielded cable
to drive RB7.

Using the ICP programmer is simple:

1. you remove the two shunts on the target board,
2. plug in theprogramming cable,
3. program the PIC as usual,
4. remove the cable, and
5. re-install the shunts.

Hope this helps.

... Gregg

1997\05\01@113201 by Daniel Holt

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{Quote hidden}

WOW... It is no wonder with people like Gregg giving away such important
details as he does, that this list is so popular, and the people using
the microchip products are so productive!!!  Thanks so much, everyone
for all your help.    Dan
--
Daniel Holt - Genetronics Inc.

RemoveMEdholtTakeThisOuTspamgenetronics.com
http://www.genetronics.com
http://rohan.sdsu.edu/home/holt/index.html

1997\05\02@143627 by Otmar Ebenhoech

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       I also have just gotten over a pile of problems with in circuit
programming.

Gregg writes.

>Having just designed a product implementing In-Circuit Programming, I can
>offer some help.  First as long as your target PIC supports serial
>programming (like the 16C84), then yes, the PICstart Plus will work .... as
>will the PRO MATE.  The PROMATE has the advantage that it will margin-test
>the intergrity of the part, but oddly does not have the  drive capacity of
>its cheaper cousin.

       Thank you for this bit of wisdom. Maybe I won't bother trying the
promate. I found that my Picstart plus is worse than my Picstart 16C in
drive capability. Niether one would program a 16C73A in my circuit.

       I also tried the buffers that microchip recommends for VPP and VDD,
only to find that the programmer didn't have the power (or maybe the timing
was too fast) to drive RB6 and RB7.

       In the end I managed to get new hardare for my Microburner 512
(made by Baradine Products Ltd.) and it has the capability to in circuit
program with no shunts, no buffers, even with a 100 uf cap on VDD. The only
thing it doesn't do is margin-test the intergrity of the part.

       If anyone knows of a programmer as good at in circuit prugramming
as the Microburner, that also verifies over the whole voltage range, please
let me know.

-Otmar-

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Otmar Ebenhoech                        Electric Vehicle Components Ltd.
    "I wish I die sleeping like my grandfather,
                           not screaming in terror like his passengers."
  spamBeGoneOtmarspamBeGonespamEVCL.com                                         (415) 494-9255
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------


'In-circuit programming'
1998\11\07@142821 by Dave Johnson
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What's the usual procedure, board-wise, for making sure my PIC can be
programmed in-situ?

My current plan is to use jumpers to isolate those 5 pins from the rest
of the circuit. There are other ways to isolate it, I know, (diodes,
etc.) but this seemed cheap and clean, and would also provide an
attachment point for the programmer (pull the shunts, plug in the
programmer). Does anybody see any problems with this approach? Are there
better ways? Any advice appreciated.

Dave Johnson

1998\11\07@154212 by Dwayne Reid

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>What's the usual procedure, board-wise, for making sure my PIC can be
>programmed in-situ?
>
>My current plan is to use jumpers to isolate those 5 pins from the rest
>of the circuit. There are other ways to isolate it, I know, (diodes,
>etc.) but this seemed cheap and clean, and would also provide an
>attachment point for the programmer (pull the shunts, plug in the
>programmer). Does anybody see any problems with this approach? Are there
>better ways? Any advice appreciated.
>
>Dave Johnson

I recall that an early Circuit Cellar Ink magazine article by Russ Reiss
proposed just such a scheme where he used a 2x5 header - this gave him
access to VCC, MCLR, data, clk, GND.  Others, both on this list others, have
adopted his pinout as their standard - unfortunately, I don't remember it
and the magazine is at home.  Maybe someone else has it handy.

I would use that method but have another arrangement:  any pic project that
is 'mission critical' always has an external power supply supervisor /
watchdog.  I'm using the Xicor X25043 which is supply supervisor / watchdog
/ eeprom all in a single 8 pin dip.  I use rb6 & rb7 to talk to the eeprom,
MCLR is already there, as is VCC and GND.  The only caveat is to make sure
the programmer has enough 'oomph' to drive VCC fast enough - I buffer it if
I have to.  To program the pic - just pull the Xicor chip, plug in the
programming cable and go!  Of course, if the board is freshly built, the
Xicor socket is already empty.  The 8 pin dip socket takes less space than
the 2x5 header and a soic Xicor watchdog.

For what its worth - that family of Xicor parts is especially nice in that
the brownout threshold is user programmable.  Xicor will tell you how to
build the programming jig and it is a 30 second job to take their standard
part and customize it if you have a low voltage circuit.  Note that the
voltage CANNOT be changed when the chip is in the target board.  You have to
use their jig.  Its darn neat!

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <TakeThisOuTdwaynerEraseMEspamspam_OUTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(403) 489-3199 voice     (403) 487-6397 fax

1998\11\07@161703 by Don McKenzie

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Dwayne Reid wrote:
>
> >What's the usual procedure, board-wise, for making sure my PIC can be
> >programmed in-situ?
> >
> >My current plan is to use jumpers to isolate those 5 pins from the rest
> >of the circuit. There are other ways to isolate it, I know, (diodes,
> >etc.) but this seemed cheap and clean, and would also provide an
> >attachment point for the programmer (pull the shunts, plug in the
> >programmer). Does anybody see any problems with this approach? Are there
> >better ways? Any advice appreciated.
> >
> >Dave Johnson
>
> I recall that an early Circuit Cellar Ink magazine article by Russ Reiss
> proposed just such a scheme where he used a 2x5 header - this gave him
> access to VCC, MCLR, data, clk, GND.  Others, both on this list others, have
> adopted his pinout as their standard - unfortunately, I don't remember it
> and the magazine is at home.  Maybe someone else has it handy.

You will find everything you need including the Dr. Russ Reiss header
pinout at:
http://www.dontronics.com/dt001.html

This Simmstick version uses a 4pdt switch to do the isolation so you
have a true load and go switch for the 84 anyway.
Program it, flick the switch, run the program. It's been around since
feb 95 and thousands are now in use.

Don McKenzie  RemoveMEdonspamTakeThisOuTdontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
For more details, send a blank message to infoEraseMEspam.....dontronics.com
or EraseMEsimstickspamdontronics.com or RemoveMEbasicsEraseMEspamEraseMEdontronics.com


'In-Circuit Programming'
2002\09\20@134736 by Sid Weaver
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This posting is for those who would like to use ICSP and haven't figured out
how to accomplish it.  For those of you who are smarter than I and already
have ICSP this will be old hat.

These procedures are for the 16F876 and the 16F877, but may apply to other 8K
PICs.

Using a WARP or other programmer, load a boot file into the target chip.  I
can give you a copy of my bootloader, which is set up for the F876, Ports C.6
and C.7, 20mHz and inverted mode, or you can create your own at

http://www.microengineeringlabs.com/resources/makeload.htm

The bootloader goes into the upper 256 bytes of memory - 1F00 to 1FFF - and
can not be overwritten.

Install your chip in a PCB.  Connect your PC serial cable to your PCB via a
DB9 loader cable.  ( I can give you the schematic.)

Using Micro Code Studio compiler, available from rentron.com at no charge,
and MeLabs Loader, available from Renton for $35.00, I think, compile and
load the program.  Your program can be modified and re-loaded any number of
times using the above setup.  No more unplugging chips and sticking them in a
programmer for minor programming changes.

I have started incorporating the elements of the loader cable into my PC
boards so I can use a standard DB9 serial interface.

If anyone is interested just get in touch.

Sid Weaver

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2002\09\20@151349 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> This posting is for those who would like to use ICSP and
> haven't figured out how to accomplish it.

What you describe is actually called using a bootloader (self-loader?).
It is an alternative to real ICSP, which realy programs the chip (the
whole chip, including fuses) while it is in the circuit. ICSP applies to
all serially programmeable PICs, not just to the ones that can program
their own code space.

Wouter van Ooijen

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