Post by thread:How many Pics to save JFK jr.[OT]

OK, here's a mega controversial subject -- How many Pics would it have taken to save JFK Jr. if his accident was caused by losing control of his aircraft? NASA's answer to an out of control airplane is a parachute!(?) How many folks here doubt that the ability to sense attitude, accelerations, heights, etc. would allow us to grab control of an aircraft and keep it within normal operating parameters? The poor fellow was riding in a $300,000 vehicle so cost is not an issue. Yeah, I know that more complexity equals lower reliability, but we have known for decades that regularly occuring pilot reactions to obscured vision will absolutely cause a crash. News reports have stated that pilots are taught to ignore what their eyes, inner ears and seat of the pants are telling them and pay attention to the instruments. Why can't the instruments pay attention to the instruments? I'm proud when we can use this power to apply microcontrollers to better lives and ashamed when we miss an opportunity to save them. Tom

>OK, here's a mega controversial subject -- How many Pics would it have taken >to save JFK Jr. if his accident was caused by losing control of his >aircraft? They have to be able to read their own ROMs, so we're into the high-end PICs now. >reports have stated that pilots are taught to ignore what their eyes, inner >ears and seat of the pants are telling them and pay attention to the >instruments. Why can't the instruments pay attention to the instruments? But he didn't have an instrument rating - he was still a green pilot. So he's going to make mistakes. Unfortunately, he killed two other people in the process. Andy ================================================================== Andy Kunz Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity ------------------------------------------------------------------ spam_OUTandyTakeThisOuTrc-hydros.com http://www.rc-hydros.com - Race Boats .....andyKILLspam@spam@montanadesign.com http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics ==================================================================

tmariner wrote: > instruments. Why can't the instruments pay attention to the instruments? They already can and do until you tell them not to. That plane had an autopilot capable of landing the plane. There was either mechanical failure, or more likely he turned it off because what it was doing didn't seem 'right'.. At 100 total hours (most people take 50 just to get a license) he had no business with passengers at night in a complex aircraft (flaps, retractable gear, variable pitch prop) with so little experience. At least to give him some credit, he had planned to leave 1 hour earlier and his wife's sister was late. All boils down to confidence != experience though. Not like it matters now. Alan

I feel a better question is how many PICs would it take to crash an airplane? The answer - just 1. Newer planes have exactly such systems. However there is controversy over whether such systems save life or simply put more in jeopardy. The problem is not computer error (with enough testing errors can be eliminated) it's pilot error. I believe it's 707s that have such a system. If the pilot attempts what the computer considers to be a dangerous move, it will override him. I am aware of at least 2 seperate incidents where this has caused an accident. One situation was as follows: After taking off the pilot was too low with too little power. The pilot realised this and pulled up. Unfortunately he pulled up a bit too hard. The computer decided that pulling up so hard with so little power was a bad idea. So, it took over and didn't allow him to rise so sharply. The pilot suddenly finds the controls are trying to fight him. So what does he do, he panics and pulls up harder. So what does the plane do, it resists harder. Result: plane hits the ground, passengers die. Who was in the wrong? No one. The pilot really shouldn't have pulled up quite so hard so the computer was right. Yet, pulling up so hard would most probably not have caused an accident had he then levelled off. IMHO, the problem is not with the computers it's with the pilots. It's easy to reprogram a computer. It's much harder to reprogram a person. Tom. > {Original Message removed}

At 01:00 AM 7/23/99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/22/99 9:52:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >.....tomKILLspam.....PSY.UNSW.EDU.AU writes: > >> I feel a better question is how many PICs would it take to crash an >> airplane? The answer - just 1. > >Ok, then how many PICs does it take to change a light bulb? Er, how many light bulbs can you change with a PIC? Remove the BALONEY from my email address. ----------------------------------------------------- Matthew Fries Minneapolis, MN USA EraseMEfreezespam_OUTTakeThisOuTbaloneyvisi.com "Quit eating all my *STUFF*!" - The Tick

Not a fuss, just another personality that could (and did) appeared at the front page of several magazines. The real fuss was to a certain princess. I believe that people need some personalities to make them bigger, every group would mourn its dead idols. Elvis was an example. In real we need somebody to admire, to light our way, to be an example of what we could be if things were different. When that admired figure dies, somehow we feel as our hope was stolen, we die a little bit together. Want a better example? take a look at two thousands years ago. Wagner Tim Hamel wrote: {Quote hidden}> > In a message dated 7/22/99 10:51:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > @spam@cpbrightKILLspamIONET.NET writes: > > > I also don't understand all of the fuss. What has this guy done for all of > > the millions of "mourners?" Other than the fact that this guy is the son > of > > a respected president and a successful businessman? > > Man, you hit the nail RIGHT on the head! Everywhere I look (especially on > AOL) I see, "Remembering JFK Jr. -- share your thoughts." It's weird. > > Tim H.

Here in Australia it has been front page news for four days now. The papers have been devoting pages and pages to it. Meanwhile the letters to the editor have been complaining about the excessive coverage. I thought we got the mass media we deserved. Isn't that what we are told when we complain about the quality of journalism in newspapers and on TV. Could it be the man in the street does not control the content in the media. Could it be the media barons actually decide how high or low the quality of mass media is. At least we still have the internet. Don't we ? Steve {Original Message removed}

At 02:32 AM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote: >Want a better example? take a look at two thousands years ago. >Wagner Wagner, you ARE asking for it! Christ was PUT to death for what he did and taught. He didn't simply die in a tragic accident and become idolized in death. Sean | | Sean Breheny | Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM | Electrical Engineering Student \--------------=---------------- Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7 KILLspamshb7KILLspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174 ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

At 03:01 23/07/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 02:32 AM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote: >>Want a better example? take a look at two thousands years ago. >>Wagner > >Wagner, you ARE asking for it! > >Christ was PUT to death for what he did and taught. He didn't simply die in >a tragic accident and become idolized in death. > >Sean > And so was JFK! P.S Christ was not put to death for what he did and tought (Crusifiction, actually was not death, stavation and exposure was, and only the gards (Whom often left) where there to stop those crusified from being rescued, one could argue that it actually was fear that stoped other citizens from doing this), but for what he stood for and the loss of power and control that Pilot thought he represented. (Waiting for the flames on that one) Dennis

Very well put. I agree. Jim {Quote hidden}>Not a fuss, just another personality that could (and did) appeared at >the front page of several magazines. The real fuss was to a certain >princess. I believe that people need some personalities to make them >bigger, every group would mourn its dead idols. Elvis was an example. In >real we need somebody to admire, to light our way, to be an example of >what we could be if things were different. When that admired figure >dies, somehow we feel as our hope was stolen, we die a little bit >together. >Want a better example? take a look at two thousands years ago. >Wagner > >Tim Hamel wrote: >> >> In a message dated 7/22/99 10:51:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >> RemoveMEcpbrightTakeThisOuTIONET.NET writes: >> >> > I also don't understand all of the fuss. What has this guy done for all of {Quote hidden}>> > the millions of "mourners?" Other than the fact that this guy is the son >> of >> > a respected president and a successful businessman? >> >> Man, you hit the nail RIGHT on the head! Everywhere I look (especially on >> AOL) I see, "Remembering JFK Jr. -- share your thoughts." It's weird. >> >> Tim H. >

>>Christ was PUT to death for what he did and taught. He didn't simply die in >>a tragic accident and become idolized in death. <snip> >P.S >Christ was not put to death for what he did and tought (Crusifiction, >actually was not death, stavation and exposure was, and only the gards >(Whom often left) where there to stop those crusified from being rescued, >one could argue that it actually was fear that stoped other citizens from >doing this), but for what he stood for and the loss of power and control >that Pilot thought he represented. >(Waiting for the flames on that one) Actually, Christ GAVE his life. It was not taken from him. Voluntarily. Mark 15:37,39 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. I John 3:16a Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. I could find others, but these make the point I think. Andy ================================================================== Andy Kunz Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity ------------------------------------------------------------------ spamBeGoneandyspamBeGonerc-hydros.com http://www.rc-hydros.com - Race Boats TakeThisOuTandyEraseMEspam_OUTmontanadesign.com http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics ==================================================================

Yep ! And to add frosting to the cake, if you ask one of the mourners ( who probably never knew JFK Jr. existed until he died ) what all the fuss is about, they'll probably tell you your an insensitve jerk <g>. A guy at work said "Ok, so they bring his body up, then bury him at sea ????? They could have saved a lot of money by just leaving him be." Eric On Friday, July 23, 1999 1:07 AM, Tim Hamel [SMTP:RemoveMEIMDNICE12TakeThisOuTAOL.COM] wrote: > In a message dated 7/22/99 10:51:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > cpbrightEraseME.....IONET.NET writes: > > > I also don't understand all of the fuss. What has this guy done for all of > > the millions of "mourners?" Other than the fact that this guy is the son > of > > a respected president and a successful businessman? > > Man, you hit the nail RIGHT on the head! Everywhere I look (especially on > AOL) I see, "Remembering JFK Jr. -- share your thoughts." It's weird. > > Tim H.

Obviously, I realize this. Hadn't considered the conspiracy issue but I wouldn't think the Kennedy's would really care about cost under any circumstances. It's just the irony of removing someone from an effective burial at sea so that he can be buried at sea <s>. As far as closure, personally, just finding and knowing would be enough. Eric >There was an autopsy in between recovery and burial. >Also a cremation I believe. >The former is a near essential requirement in the death of any >Kennedy due to past history and the inevitable conspiracy theorists >(and the real possibility of a real conspiracy). >Also, recovery of the body provides much needed "closure" for those >who genuinely care.

Russell McMahon wrote: > > >"Ok, so they bring his body up, then bury him at sea ????? They > >could have saved a lot of money by just leaving him be." > > There was an autopsy in between recovery and burial. They will probably come to the conclusion, that the last thing that flashed throught his mind, was his ass. > Also a cremation I believe. > > The former is a near essential requirement in the death of any > Kennedy due to past history and the inevitable conspiracy theorists > (and the real possibility of a real conspiracy). Hehehe. I can't wait. Maybe it had something to do with Diana's death? Or Tutankamen's? I am looking forward to not seeing Oliver Stone's movie version. -- Friendly Regards /"\ \ / Tjaart van der Walt X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN EraseMEtjaartcellpt.co.za / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL |--------------------------------------------------| | GSM Technology for Positioning and Telematics | | Cellpoint Systems SA http://www.cellpt.com | | http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html | | WGS84 -26.0124 +28.1129 Voice +27 (0)11 2545100 | |--------------------------------------------------|

At 11:25 PM 7/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >Obviously, I realize this. Hadn't considered the conspiracy issue but I >wouldn't think the Kennedy's would really care about cost under any >circumstances. It's just the irony of removing someone from an effective Especially since We The People are paying for it all. Even the funeral! Andy ================================================================== Andy Kunz Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity ------------------------------------------------------------------ RemoveMEandyEraseMEEraseMErc-hydros.com http://www.rc-hydros.com - Race Boats RemoveMEandyspam_OUTKILLspammontanadesign.com http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics ==================================================================

>>>>> "Eric" == Eric Oliver <EraseMEericspamspamBeGoneKEDCOENT.COM> writes: > Obviously, I realize this. Hadn't considered the conspiracy issue > but I wouldn't think the Kennedy's would really care about cost > under any circumstances. It's just the irony of removing someone > from an effective burial at sea so that he can be buried at sea <s>. On a usenet newsgroup I frequent, they've taken to calling it the 'Kennedy family catch and release program'. -Ansel -- Would you please explain what you are being incoherent about? -John Woodgate

> On Fri, 23 Jul 1999, Matthew Fries wrote: > 2. >Er, how many light bulbs can you change with a PIC? Bernhard Kraft then wrote: > If 1 or 2 is the right question depends on if you let the PIC's get > programmed by M$ programmers or by some linux freaks :) Since when does PIC source code's quality seriously relate to the programmer's operating system ? People love to form mobs, almost exactly like sheep. Your put down of Linux users as freaks demonstrates your unease at dealing with unfamiliar technology by putting the Linux confident group into your out group category. Graham Daniel.

Really ? Why is that ? When I die, can I expect the same treatment <g> ? On Saturday, July 24, 1999 9:38 AM, Andy Kunz [SMTP:supportSTOPspamspam_OUTMONTANADESIGN.COM] w rote: {Quote hidden}> At 11:25 PM 7/23/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Obviously, I realize this. Hadn't considered the conspiracy issue but I > >wouldn't think the Kennedy's would really care about cost under any > >circumstances. It's just the irony of removing someone from an effective > > Especially since We The People are paying for it all. Even the funeral! > > Andy > > ================================================================== > Andy Kunz Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > spamBeGoneandySTOPspamEraseMErc-hydros.com http://www.rc-hydros.com - Race Boats > KILLspamandyspamBeGonemontanadesign.com http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics > ==================================================================

I think he is referring to the use of U.S. Coast Guard and Navy vessels for the burial at sea. Sean At 09:06 PM 7/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >Really ? Why is that ? When I die, can I expect the same treatment <g> ? > > >On Saturday, July 24, 1999 9:38 AM, Andy Kunz [SMTP:EraseMEsupportEraseMEMONTANADESIGN.COM] wrote: {Quote hidden}>> At 11:25 PM 7/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >> >Obviously, I realize this. Hadn't considered the conspiracy issue but I >> >wouldn't think the Kennedy's would really care about cost under any >> >circumstances. It's just the irony of removing someone from an effective >> >> Especially since We The People are paying for it all. Even the funeral! >> >> Andy >> >> ================================================================== >> Andy Kunz Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> @spam@andy@spam@spam_OUTrc-hydros.com http://www.rc-hydros.com - Race Boats >> spamBeGoneandyKILLspammontanadesign.com http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics >> ================================================================== > | | Sean Breheny | Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM | Electrical Engineering Student \--------------=---------------- Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7 .....shb7spam_OUTcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174 ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

How many PIC's would have it taken to save JFK Sr.? I don't know but it would have been worth it. It could have saved the lives of 50,000 military personnel and associated burial expenses. JFK Sr. was the first Viet Nam War protester. There was talk of burying JFK Jr. at Arlington National Cemetery. That probably would have cost more. If you want (expect) a military funeral but aren't entitled, it would help to get on the good side of a U.S. Congressman. Try campaign contributions or volunteer work. There are basically two kinds of politicians. The kind that do what is best for the people (all), the economy, the environment, the rest of the world. The other kind of politician is selfish. Everything they do is for personal wealth, power or to get reelected. They may make headlines with a 792 billion tax cut but lower income people will only get 1% and it's all a sham and waste of valuable time because they want it vetoed. LIFE is what WE do. Eternity is the afterlife. "Sean H. Breheny" wrote: {Quote hidden}> > I think he is referring to the use of U.S. Coast Guard and Navy vessels for > the burial at sea. > > Sean > > At 09:06 PM 7/24/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Really ? Why is that ? When I die, can I expect the same treatment <g> ? > > > > > >On Saturday, July 24, 1999 9:38 AM, Andy Kunz > [SMTP:TakeThisOuTsupport.....TakeThisOuTMONTANADESIGN.COM] wrote: > >> At 11:25 PM 7/23/99 -0500, you wrote: > >> >Obviously, I realize this. Hadn't considered the conspiracy issue but I > >> >wouldn't think the Kennedy's would really care about cost under any > >> >circumstances. It's just the irony of removing someone from an effective > >> > >> Especially since We The People are paying for it all. Even the funeral! > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> ================================================================== > >> Andy Kunz Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> TakeThisOuTandyKILLspamspamrc-hydros.com http://www.rc-hydros.com - Race Boats > >> .....andyRemoveMEmontanadesign.com http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics > >> ================================================================== > > > | > | Sean Breheny > | Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM > | Electrical Engineering Student > \--------------=---------------- > Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org > Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7 > RemoveMEshb7spamBeGonecornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174 > ________________________________________________________ > NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

At 09:06 PM 7/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >Really ? Why is that ? When I die, can I expect the same treatment <g> ? Only if your father and uncles are philanderers with the right movie stars. Andy ================================================================== Andy Kunz Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity ------------------------------------------------------------------ andyEraseMErc-hydros.com http://www.rc-hydros.com - Race Boats RemoveMEandyEraseMEspam_OUTmontanadesign.com http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics ==================================================================

At 11:46 AM 7/26/99 -0700, you wrote: >We're sorta way OT here, guys - This isn't the Philosophy and Religion >mailing list, a Sadism & Torture mailing list, nor a Gossip mailing >list. Nor a Debate mailing list. Methinks it's time to kill the >thread, folks. Makes me wish I had sound effect emoticons :-) In lieu of these: ( ) ( ) ( ) (~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~) || || || || --------------------------------- And that _isn't_ a magic mushroom. Andy ================================================================== Andy Kunz Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity ------------------------------------------------------------------ @spam@andyRemoveMEEraseMErc-hydros.com http://www.rc-hydros.com - Race Boats EraseMEandy@spam@montanadesign.com http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics ==================================================================