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'Hobby vs Production Programmers'
1997\09\02@153558 by Alex I. Torres

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  Hi All PICers !

b> From: Mark Jurras <spam_OUTJURRAMTakeThisOuTspamTORRINGTON.COM>
b> Subject:      Hobby vs Production Programmers (ON Topic!!)
b> To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
b>
b> In the past there has been discussion of Hobby type
b> programmers that program and check the PIC at 5V only.
b> Production programmers seem to check the Min and Max
b> operating range. Is this check done during the blank check
b> or during code verification or both?


Hm.
1 If You work with flash 84 its enough only during
  verification, if your programmer send "Erase All"
  command before wriing.
2 If You work with JW part, I strongly reccommend
  to provide blank checking with low Vdd (or both
  low & high Vdd) and verification with low and high Vdd.
3 If You work with OTP devices you may assume that it
  is clear, and provide only verification with
  low/high Vdd.


-------------------------------------------------------------
  Best Wishes, Alex Torres.
  Kharkov, Ukraine, exUSSR.
  E-Mail To : altorspamKILLspamcook.kharkov.ua   via InterNet
              or 2:461/28             via FidoNet

--- GoldED 2.50.A0531+

1997\09\03@030233 by Kalle Pihlajasaari

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Hi Alex,

>  b> In the past there has been discussion of Hobby type
>  b> programmers that program and check the PIC at 5V only.
>  b> Production programmers seem to check the Min and Max
>  b> operating range. Is this check done during the blank check
>  b> or during code verification or both?
>
>  3 If You work with OTP devices you may assume that it
>    is clear, and provide only verification with
>    low/high Vdd.

If I assume the erase margin is OK on OTP parts should I set
the Vcc low or high on a DIY programmer to guarantee the programming
margin.  This I have felt would make the programming pretty
reliable.

I must say I PICs in the field fail very rarely, perhaps 4 out of
1000 that I have had to do with.  All done with a PICstart
programmer at standard voltage.  Failures were probably due
to LARGE spikes on inputs.

Cheers
--
Kalle Pihlajasaari   .....kalleKILLspamspam.....ip.co.za   http://www.ip.co.za/ip
Interface Products   P O Box 15775, DOORNFONTEIN, 2028, South Africa
+ 27 (11) 402-7750   Fax: 402-7751    http://www.ip.co.za/people/kalle

DonTronics, Silicon Studio and Wirz Electronics uP Product Dealer

1997\09\04@151719 by Andrew G Williams

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Kalle Pihlajasaari said:

>I must say I PICs in the field fail very rarely, perhaps 4 out of
>1000 that I have had to do with.  All done with a PICstart
>programmer at standard voltage.

If 0.4% of hobby-progg'd chips fail, that's a very effective advert for
production-quality programmers! :-) Still, that raises a question which I (as
a newcomer) would love to know the answer to. How reliable are the PIC chips,
when programmed to production standard?.

Andy W.

1997\09\04@165138 by Reginald Neale

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>Kalle Pihlajasaari said:
>
>>I must say I PICs in the field fail very rarely, perhaps 4 out of
>>1000 that I have had to do with.  All done with a PICstart
>>programmer at standard voltage.
>
>If 0.4% of hobby-progg'd chips fail, that's a very effective advert for
>production-quality programmers! :-) Still, that raises a question which I (as
>a newcomer) would love to know the answer to. How reliable are the PIC chips,
>when programmed to production standard?.
>
>Andy W.

We make a circuit board which is used in a medical device. It uses a 16C54
to sequence some valves. In the past several years, we have made tens of
thousands of these assemblies. We have the 16C54's gang-programmed by the
distributor. I won't say we've NEVER had one fail because of the PIC part,
but offhand I'd estimate the failure rate is probably less than one in ten
thousand. Maybe way less.

Reg Neale

1997\09\05@010425 by Kalle Pihlajasaari

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Hi Andy,

> >I must say I PICs in the field fail very rarely, perhaps 4 out of
> >1000 that I have had to do with.  All done with a PICstart
> >programmer at standard voltage.
>
> If 0.4% of hobby-progg'd chips fail, that's a very effective advert for
> production-quality programmers! :-) Still, that raises a question which I (as
> a newcomer) would love to know the answer to. How reliable are the PIC chips,
> when programmed to production standard?.

Nay I say.  You quote out of context.

I said we have had 0.4% PIC failues in the field and I attribute it to
spikes on input pins, all there devices are communications products that
have long interface cables and are often in industrial environments.
These units sometimes come back with tracks burnt on the board before the
primary surge protection but the PICs are fine.

I don't recall ever having a PIC that was programmed with a PICstart
that did not work.  That is to say if it verified in the programmer,
sometimes the MPSTART software and the PICstart will get stuck
on a chip and require a reboot, the chip under work will be part programmed
and sometimes not be possible to complete programming, typically I
toss the chip.

Got two new high volume products about to come off the line so I will
probably get a PROMATE to do the stuff just so I have more confidence
in the units that are going to be automotive temperature.

Cheers
--
Kalle Pihlajasaari   EraseMEkallespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTip.co.za   http://www.ip.co.za/ip
Interface Products   P O Box 15775, DOORNFONTEIN, 2028, South Africa
+ 27 (11) 402-7750   Fax: 402-7751    http://www.ip.co.za/people/kalle

DonTronics, Silicon Studio and Wirz Electronics uP Product Dealer

1997\09\05@095555 by paulb

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Hello Reg.

> We make a circuit board which is used in a medical device. It uses a
> 16C54 to sequence some valves. In the past several years, we have made
> tens of thousands of these assemblies. We have the 16C54's gang-
> programmed by the distributor. I won't say we've NEVER had one fail
> because of the PIC part, but offhand I'd estimate the failure rate is
> probably less than one in ten thousand. Maybe way less.

 Let me guess.  A SCD?

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1997\09\06@053545 by Zack Cilliers

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Hi there!

I have programmed wel over a Thousand PIC's with a picstart B
and had not one fail in the field yet.

Maybe just lucky.

Zack
              )|(
            (o o)
-----ooO--(_)--Ooo----

zcspamspam_OUTintekom.co.za
or
@spam@spazzmanKILLspamspaminame.com

There is no justice.
There is just us.

----------
> From: Andrew G Williams <KILLspamAGW01KILLspamspamAOL.COM>
> To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: Hobby vs Production Programmers
> Date: Thursday, September 04, 1997 9:15 PM
>
> Kalle Pihlajasaari said:
>
> >I must say I PICs in the field fail very rarely, perhaps 4
out of
> >1000 that I have had to do with.  All done with a PICstart
> >programmer at standard voltage.
>
> If 0.4% of hobby-progg'd chips fail, that's a very effective
advert for
> production-quality programmers! :-) Still, that raises a
question which I (as
> a newcomer) would love to know the answer to. How reliable are
the PIC chips,
> when programmed to production standard?.
>
> Andy W.

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