Searching \ for 'For' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=
Search entire site for: 'For'.

No exact or substring matches. trying for part
PICList Thread
'Beta testers wanted for disassembler'
1994\06\21@122724 by -robotics-research-centre.salford.ac.uk (Ian King)n/a

flavicon
face
Dear all,

I need some beta testers for a piece of software I will be releasing to the net.
The program is a fairly basic pic disassembler, and I need to have as much code
run through it and checked as possible.

Now I realise this is NOT the most useful piece of software around (but it may
be useful to decode programs that have been "lost" in .asm format).
It is however a start on the road to an assembler/debugger system. The major
_feature_ of these tools being that they may be compiled/run on any machine
or OS having a C compiler capable of building them.

The disassembler decodes from an INHX16 style file (default output of MPALC) and
produces Microchip standard mnemonics.  It will decode either 12 or 14 bit pic
code.

The beta testers in return for testing and suggestions will receive the huge kudos (?)
of having their names in the readme file :-) and some input on the final release
version of this and any other code.

The final bugs^H^H^H^Hfeatures are currently being hammered out, but the code should
be delivered (via e-mail) early next week to those lucky people who want it.

=%-)

Ian

p.s. I will just be supplying the C code, so beta testers must have a compiler
for their platform!  The code has been developed on a Sun (Solaris 2.3) using Sun's own
compiler. I can produce MS-DOS and Linux targets (I hope ;-) for a final release but
others (amigas and macs) will require someone else to build them for me (hint hint).

p.p.s. The final release will probably be released as "postcard-ware" i.e. licence to use
requires the sending of a postcard of your hometown to me...




'Useful Macros for Store Allocation on 16Cxx Chips '
1994\07\01@112019 by john
flavicon
picon face

Here are a couple of MPALC macros I found useful for storage
allocation on PICs.  They're for when you wat a register allocated
but don't care which; you can choose whether to allocate from the
top or bottom end of the register set.  The parameters given here
do for 16C71 and 16C84 PICs, for others change RAM_Start and MAX_RAM.

If you like these, I also have some code for implementing timed finite
state machine dispatch (a machine is a set of states;  the current state
is executed after a delay specified as a number of calls of the dispatcher;
states can set the next state and next delay to dispatch to;  for N instances
of machines, it uses 2N+2 registers, 2N of them permanently and 2 as temps
for dispatch).  I also have a master transmitter and slave receiver I^2 C
implementation for PICs (16C84 or 16C71) running at > 6MHz that supports
multimaster operation (in theory).  If you are interested, say so, and I'll
post the code.

John Hallam, AI Dept., Edinburgh University.

-------------------cut here for MPALC code---------------------------

;******************************** Register File Store Allocation
;
; These macros allocate store from the register file.  If there is
; enough store they succeed, defining the specified label.  If not,
; they fail, leaving the label undefined and so inducing errors.

       RAM_Start       equ     0Ch             ; First GP Register
       MAX_RAM         equ     30h             ; Last GP Register + 1

       RAM_Lo          set     RAM_Start       ; Current low water mark
       RAM_Hi          set     MAX_RAM         ; Current high water mark

       AllocHi macro   label,amount            ; Allocate store called <label>

               if      RAM_Lo+amount > RAM_Hi  ; Not enough registers  
               exitm                           ; ERROR EXIT
               else
               RAM_Hi  set     RAM_Hi-amount   ; Adjust mark
               label   equ     RAM_Hi          ; Allocate at high end
               endif
               endm

       AllocLo macro   label,amount            ; Allocate store called <label>

               if      RAM_Lo+amount > RAM_Hi  ; Not enough registers  
               exitm                           ; ERROR EXIT
               else
               label   equ     RAM_Lo          ; Allocate at low end
               RAM_Lo  set     RAM_Lo+amount   ; Adjust mark
               endif
               endm


'PIC Utilities for MPALC & I^2 C Code'
1994\07\13@072240 by john

flavicon
picon face

A while ago I mailed the list with some storage allocation macros and
a threat to supply interested parties with code for I^2 C bus protocol
communications and timed finite state machines.  Part of that is done:
but the code is moderately long so I suggest that you collect it, if you
are interested from ftp.dai.edinburgh.ac.uk, file /pub/user/pic-utils.tar.

You will find there the storage allocation macros I posted earlier, and some
other useful macros, e.g. a configuration macro that supports defaulting for
conditional compilation switches (the things that, when you forget to put
/D xxx=1 on the command line, MPALC says something like "line 1: Crit" and
crashes your machine ;-), as well as code for a multi-master I^2 C package
supporting master transmit and slave receive with interrupt detection of start
conditions (so your PIC doesn't have to spend all its time watching the bus).
The individual files in the directory in the tar file contain more information.

The finite state code will follow, as will other bits of the I^2 C stuff and
a neat UNIX c-shell script that calculates all the register values for a PIC
16C71 given clock rate, RTCC tick rate desired, and descriptions of the pin
functions (e.g. digital output, analogue input, digital tristate, etc.).  I
didn't manage to do this today, 'cos I've got to go on holiday in about an hour.
The code is there for people in a hurry -- in a month there will be more.

Have fun,

John Hallam                             spam_OUTjohnTakeThisOuTspamaifh.ed.ac.uk
Dept. of Artificial Intelligence
University of Edinburgh
5 Forrest Hill
Edinburgh EH1 2QL

'PICs for trade.....'
1994\07\14@125803 by pablo

flavicon
face


Anyone interested in trading two UV erasable PIC16C57s for two UV
erasable 16C56s?  I'll pay postage too - preferrably two-day US Post.
The two I'll give you haven't been used and I prefer that the 56s I get
to have not been erased more than 5 times.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If outside IBM network boundaries  _^_  please pay attention to the following:
I speak for myself, not IBM. What (o o) I say MAY be wrong. No action should
be taken on my opinion alone. -oOO-(_)-OOo-  (.....pabloKILLspamspam@spam@netmail.austin.ibm.com)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

           -- Paul Greenwood --  (pablospamKILLspamaustin.ibm.com)


'CROSS COMPILER FOR PICS'
1994\07\19@145545 by JKELLY
flavicon
face
 I NEED YOUR EXPERTISE!  
I HAVE A PARALLAX CROSS COMPILED LISTING FOR A I BELIVE IS SOURCE FOR THE 8051
CONTROLLER. WHAT I NEED IS SOMTHING THAT WILL ETHIER LET ME COMPILE IN THE 8051 OR SOME WAY OF PRODUCING A LISTING OF 8051 CODES SO I CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT ALL
THE CODE IS DOING.
IM DO NOT HAVE ANY EXPERIANCE WITH THE 8051 AND DONT KNOW THE SYNTAX. TO SUM  
IT UP A CROSS COMPILER TO COMPILE 8051 TO PIC CODE OR ANY IDEAS YOU GUYS MIGHT
HAVE.
THANKS FOR ANY SUGGESTIONS YOU CAN SEND.
JAMES.
CCK  




'Stamp dev sys for Mac'
1994\08\17@164549 by crocontroller discussion list
flavicon
face
                  Stamp dev sys for Mac
sorry if this a faq - i'm new to the list
is there a mac version of the stamp development system?
free/share/cost-ware ? ?

'email address for Microchip Inc'
1994\08\22@133005 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Does anyone know the email address for Microchip Inc ??

Rasher

'Autobaud for serial link'
1994\08\22@133009 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Has anyone got some code or ideas on how to sense the baud rate
of an Asynchronous Serial I/O automatically. Ideally this should be
done continuously allowing a RC clocked PIC to adjust calibration
as its operating freq changes.

Rasher

1994\08\22@154606 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
If you time the length of the start bit, you can sense bit rate in less
than one character on any odd character...

BillW

1994\08\23@040926 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
I have considered using the start bit to give the timing of the link
(baud rate) which as you say will only work for 50% of characters.

I was also thinking in terms of timing edge transitions and dividing
this time by the bit time to give number of bits at same level (mark or
space). Has anyone else considered this rather than the more conventional
measure the link at bit rate aftre delay of bit rate/2 from start  ??

I hope some of this makes sense !!!

Rasher

1994\08\23@143750 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
I have seen several systems where it was required to press
the space bar as the first character. In serial communications,
the least significant bit is transmitted first. For a space, the
bit pattern would look like the following:

_________                              ____           _______________
       |                             |    |         |
Mark   |                             |    |         |
       |_____________________________|    |_________|
            .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .
  1    Start  b0   b1   b2   b3   b4   b5   b6   b7 stop1 stop2  Mark



This conforms to 1 start bit, 8 data bits, no parity and two stop bits.
The processor then has six bits that are low in which to increment a
counter and calculate the serial data rate relative to it's own clock
frequency. The longer time for measurement makes for a more accurate
determination of the serial data rate.

Another example would be to use a ( , 8 , H , X , h or an x. These
characters will allow a measurement for four bits long. Althogh a
little less accurate, you only need to right shift your counter
twice ( divide by four ) in order to calculate your reload data
for your bit counter.

The BASIC interpreter in the 8051AH-BASIC chips requires you to press
the space bar to log on, and then for the real time clock to work,
you give the command xtal = xx.xxxxxx to match the crystal connected
to the micrcontroller.

Hope this help someone,
Jerry

'Better BASIC STAMP for Pic . (the size)'
1994\08\29@084637 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Hi everybody,

I am looking either for the internal software of the interpreter
pic chip of the BASIC STAMP, or better for an upgraded version (>1.4)
that would accept more than 256 bytes of code (many more please...)
Please answer me about the availability of a new basic with PIC chips.
Yours faithfuly,

.............---
.......__.../...\
......|..|_/.....\
..____|..........*\
.|......Strasbourg/
..\............../
...\............|
....\.(France)..|
..../............\
....|......__.....|
....|...../..\___/
....|.....|
....\_____|

~A
Herve GALMICHE
ALCATEL BUSINESS SYSTEMS
CC 696
1 rte du Docteur Albert Schweitzer
F- 67408 ILLKIRCH Cedex FRANCE
Phone +33 88677700 ask for 78004
e-mail .....galmicheKILLspamspam.....sxb.bsf.alcatel.fr

Yours Faithfully,
H.GALMICHE


'Pic Assembler for Unix (at last)'
1994\09\07@082533 by crocontroller discussion list
flavicon
face
Dear all,

I have just posted my PIC assembler for unix to ftp.funet.fi
called pictools.tgz and pictools.info (I hope).  This will
no doubt be moved under the /pub/microprocs/pic heirarchy soon.


I has been written using gcc (ANSI C) under Linux, but should be
very portable!  It is version 0.1 and may/will have bugs so don't
just trust it on OTP parts until you simulate (you mean you don't
already) and use EPROM/EEPROM parts for first prototypes!

Anyway hope you like it

=%-)

Ian

p.s. If it does not appear in a couple of days I will try again
p.p.s. If you really can't wait or don't have ftp access then I
      could e-mail it to you (~40k bytes uuencoded), but the
      number of people who I could do this for is limited!


'Availability of 16C74, 16C64, upgrade for picstart'
1994\10\10@063601 by Alex
flavicon
picon face
In article: <EraseME9409221636.aa21291spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpost.demon.co.uk> DVORAKVspamspam_OUTcsearn.bitnet writes:
>
> Please,
>         our distributor ELBATEX for Czech Republic has nothing from 16C64
> or 16C74 in Wiena store. Are this chips available in sample quantities?

Both the 16C64 and 16C74 are becoming more freely available in sample
qtys now. Elbatex will have been allocated some, but I am not aware of their
priority
list for sample distribution

>         I have Picstart Version 16C1. Is there a SW upgrade for the new
> chips 16C74, 16C73 etc.

I'm not sure if this may be a typing error on your part - if what you
have is a Picstart-16B1, there is no upgrade available to support the
16C74/73, you will need to purchase the Picstart-16C, which is just
becoming available. Obviously if what you have is a Picstart-16C the
software supplied with it should inherently support the 16C74/73

Alex R. Baker - Field Apps Engineer Ph: +44 628 851077  Car: +44 831 494921
Arizona Microchip Technology        Fx: +44 628 850259  Email:
@spam@alexKILLspamspammicrochp.demon.co.uk
ANY VIEWS EXPRESSED HERE ARE MINE AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENT THOSE OF MY
EMPLOYER

'16C84 downloader for Linux'
1994\10\23@212200 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
 Is anyone else out there working on a decent development environment
for PIC programming under Linux? I'm writing a downloader to drive
a serial programming board like Russ Reiss' or David Tait's from the
parallel port. Right now it has decent libraries but the actual driver
code is pretty weak (I'm a fan of the add-features-as-I-need-'em school
of software design). However, a couple of weeks ago I mentioned
to several people that I'd probably be releasing an alpha version in
about a week, so I'm announcing version 0.1 now even though it's still
got a long way to go before it's even "alpha". I'd like to offer my
code to the community so that instead of having N different downloaders
each with its own strengths and weaknesses, we can have one comprehensive
programmer... so if you're thinking of writing a programmer or similar
tool, drop me a line and see if it would be easier to extend my code.
(If you just want a programmer and no hassle, though, my code isn't
at that stage yet.)

--
... William Lewis. ----- KILLspamwimlKILLspamspamnetcom.com ----- Seattle, WA, USA
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled."

1994\10\24@021906 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Is your work with the PIC linux downloader part
of a university project, business, or hobby?

tom sloane
dept. of electrical engineering
bucknell unirsity
lewisburg, pa  usa

1994\10\27@022745 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
I've been porting the C code for the assembler and serial programmer
by ED Technical Publications. They had an article for their 16C5X
programmer kit in Electronics Now(?).

Anyway, the code is truly gross and helps to feed my generalization
that engineers who are not "programmers" should not be allowed to
write code. I've got it compiling under Linux pretty clean using
gcc with almost all the warnings turned on (not just -Wall) for
the assembler and have yet to finish work on the downloader code.

If someone has the same kit, I can mail you my version and the originals.
DOSEMU works but is less that ideal.

I guess a copylefted simulator would be a noble eventual goal for
many of us.

arthur

1994\10\27@121955 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> I've been porting the C code for the assembler and serial programmer
> by ED Technical Publications. They had an article for their 16C5X
> programmer kit in Electronics Now(?).
>

What sort of serial protocol is used ? Is it sustainable with common
Unix serial drivers, or do you have to do some clever stuff with the
handshake lines ?

A generic serial connection to the programmer sounds a nicer solution
than porting the parallel-port programmer, since it would be usable with
all Unixes rather than being Linux-specific. A special device driver
that only works on PC-Linux seems barely better than a DOS-only utility
to me.

Are the protocols that Microchip uses to talk to the Picstart (and
perhaps other programmers) published anywhere ? It seems to involve
a lot of handshake-line-waving, but perhaps it's just doing excessive
flowcontrol - I don't know whether it will work with the accepted
handshake protocols.

> If someone has the same kit, I can mail you my version and the originals.
> DOSEMU works but is less that ideal.

I don't have the kit. Are the sources copyright / not copyable ?

-adrian

1994\10\27@170754 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
>> I've been porting the C code for the assembler and serial programmer
>> by ED Technical Publications. They had an article for their 16C5X
>> programmer kit in Electronics Now(?).

I've been struggling along with the PICSTART and it sucks.  My housemate has
a Linux machine and with the advent of this Linux base, we could share the
programmer.

Can somebody give me a firm reference to this serial programmer kit?

- JohnR

--
John R. Haggis            RemoveMEhaggisTakeThisOuTspamnetcom.com
Millennium Research
(408) 269-1814 vox
(408) 269-9323 fax

1994\10\30@000737 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> What sort of serial protocol is used ? Is it sustainable with common
> Unix serial drivers, or do you have to do some clever stuff with the
> handshake lines ?

The source for the 16C7X chip in the programmer is also on the BBS.
>From what I have been able to understand from the source, the protocol
is pretty asynchronous (read: hideous amounts of time spent sending
handshake characters in lockstep back and forth instead of using flow
control) and can be implemented with really easy blocking I/O so the
code should be trivial to port. If I have to do funky serial setup
using termios or something, then one camp (BSD or SysV) will be
unhappy.

> A generic serial connection to the programmer sounds a nicer solution
> than porting the parallel-port programmer, since it would be usable with
> all Unixes rather than being Linux-specific. A special device driver
> that only works on PC-Linux seems barely better than a DOS-only utility
> to me.

If I had the choice again, I'd be inclined to get some commercial
serial-based product since kits are annoying. Good thing I got my
brother to put this one together. :-)
The one good thing about this kit is that it does verify at min and
max voltage levels. A definite drawback is that this thing only does the
16C5X series chips.
When I get around to porting the serial routines, it won't be very
Linux specific. I just won't promise it will work on platform XX unless
someone gives a nice XX system. :-)

> Are the protocols that Microchip uses to talk to the Picstart (and
> perhaps other programmers) published anywhere ? It seems to involve
> a lot of handshake-line-waving, but perhaps it's just doing excessive
> flowcontrol - I don't know whether it will work with the accepted
> handshake protocols.
Has someone tried asking for the protocol specs?  It always amazes me
how hardware venders can be so protective about a few API/comm specs
that are absolutely useless without the hardware they sell!

> > If someone has the same kit, I can mail you my version and the originals.
> > DOSEMU works but is less that ideal.
> I don't have the kit. Are the sources copyright / not copyable ?

Everything is copyrighted. Automatically by law. However, there seems
to be no restriction on the distribution. I didn't need to do anything
special to get it from their BBS.
I offered to mail it to people because most people here use the MicroChip
or PICSTART products and couldn't care less about source for PICPROG.EXE

Personally, it would be nice to have a unified set of unix tools with
a back end for each product but that's probably wishful thinking.

arthur

1994\10\31@091443 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
I'm jumping in to this late, so please pardon me  if I ask something obvious.

> > What sort of serial protocol is used ? Is it sustainable with common
> > Unix serial drivers, or do you have to do some clever stuff with the
> > handshake lines ?

What programmer is this?  I've had a few ideas in my head for awhile for a
device such as this.  It sounds like this might be specific to a certain
small part of the PIC family.  What I have in mind would be a lot more
general purpose.

>
> The source for the 16C7X chip in the programmer is also on the BBS.
> From what I have been able to understand from the source, the protocol
> is pretty asynchronous (read: hideous amounts of time spent sending
> handshake characters in lockstep back and forth instead of using flow
> control) and can be implemented with really easy blocking I/O so the
> code should be trivial to port. If I have to do funky serial setup
> using termios or something, then one camp (BSD or SysV) will be
> unhappy.

Of course, the way to deal with this is to write two object modules (
one for BSD, one for SYSV) which abstract serial IO to the appropriate level,
and then link in the one that you need.  The rest of the code doesn't have
to know about the differences then.

>
> > A generic serial connection to the programmer sounds a nicer solution
> > than porting the parallel-port programmer, since it would be usable with
> > all Unixes rather than being Linux-specific. A special device driver
> > that only works on PC-Linux seems barely better than a DOS-only utility
> > to me.

True.  In fact, hey, just write another serial object module for DOS.

>
> If I had the choice again, I'd be inclined to get some commercial
> serial-based product since kits are annoying. Good thing I got my
> brother to put this one together. :-)

Well, I must be wierd then.  I like building kits.  The ones from Micromint
are a dream, BTW.  Of course, they should offer you the choice of buying
an assembled and tested unit if you want to.

> The one good thing about this kit is that it does verify at min and
> max voltage levels. A definite drawback is that this thing only does the
> 16C5X series chips.

Aha, as I figured.  If I ever get around to designing my programmer, it will
have a variety of Vcc and Vpp and programming algorithms.  I will probably
base it on an 8051 due to external memory addressing issues and the presence of
a real UART onboard.  Oh, and I already have a programmer for 8751s.
Programming will be via the serial port, with a choice of XON/XOFF or hardware
handshaking, and the protocol will be open.  Normal asyncronous serial support
is necessary for platform independence.  Once that is done, parallel port
support is just another access method.  A major goal of this is to be
able to program not only the entire PIC family, but also other microcontrollers,
EPROMS, and EEPROMS.

Is somebody already doing this?  Is anyone interested in banging out the details
and the hardware with me?  Would the world be terribly mad at me if I wrote
the host side software in C++ instead of C?

> When I get around to porting the serial routines, it won't be very
> Linux specific. I just won't promise it will work on platform XX unless
> someone gives a nice XX system. :-)

Reasonable.


> Personally, it would be nice to have a unified set of unix tools with
> a back end for each product but that's probably wishful thinking.

Oh yes.  And no fancy GUI stuff.  I want to be able to use the tools from a
makefile.  If someone else wants to write a fancy front end for the tools,
they can, but the command functionality must be there.

Right now, I'm working on an
assembler which will be flexible enough to work on all of the PIC family just
by loading up a different table of opcode descriptions.   A feature of this
assembler will be strong typing and promotion such that:

clr     label

translates to

clrf    6

if label is register file 6 and

clr     label

translates to

cbf     6,0

if label is register file, bit 0.

I already have that functionality, but I am redesigning the assembler to make
expression parsing work correctly with parentheses, and make it more flexible.

1994\10\31@180857 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Excerpts from mail: 31-Oct-94 Re: 16C84 downloader for Linux by Lou
spamBeGoneSortmanspamBeGonespamNCINFO.IOG.U
> Aha, as I figured.  If I ever get around to designing my programmer, it will
> have a variety of Vcc and Vpp and programming algorithms.  I will probably
> base it on an 8051 due to external memory addressing issues and the
presence of
> a real UART onboard.  Oh, and I already have a programmer for 8751s.
> Programming will be via the serial port, with a choice of XON/XOFF or
hardware
> handshaking, and the protocol will be open.  Normal asyncronous serial
support
> is necessary for platform independence.  Once that is done, parallel port
> support is just another access method.  A major goal of this is to be
> able to program not only the entire PIC family, but also other
microcontrollers,
>
> EPROMS, and EEPROMS.
>
> Is somebody already doing this?  Is anyone interested in banging out
the details
>
> and the hardware with me?  Would the world be terribly mad at me if I wrote
> the host side software in C++ instead of C?

   I'm going to design a _very_ similar universal programmer, but I
have a few other things that I'd like it to do such as chip
identification and verification.  I've been researching bits and pieces
of it as I get time, but the actual project will have to wait until the
summer.  I'm not much of an analog person, so that's the stuff that I
really have to research...  Go ahead and use C++!  It would be a crime
not to.  I'm going to go with an HC11 or HC16 microcontroller instead of
an 8051 variant though.

Chris Kristof
Junior ECE
Carnegie Mellon University


'Using RTCC for timing control'
1994\11\03@015756 by crocontroller discussion list
flavicon
face
>
> I have another 16C54 question as well. Since the '54 doesn't have
> an interrupt for the RTCC what's the usual procedure for running
> a given section of code periodically, say every 100mS or so? Can
> you run a tight loop waiting for the RTCC to roll over from some
> calculated value or will this methos "miss" the rollover if you simply
> test for it to be equal to zero?
>
I have used a very accurate method for timing control with the RTCC.
The main mechanism is this piece of code:

loop    movlw cycles-11
       subwf RTCC,w
       skpc
        goto loop
       addwf PC
       nop
       nop
       nop
       nop
       clrf RTCC

You define a value below 255 for "cycles", RTCC is set to count
instruction cycles without prescaler. That gives you around
"cycles-15" maximum clock cycles within you can do what you want and
return to this main poll loop any time. It will always time itself on
the exact cycle. Pretty neat when no interrupts are available..?

/Tomas


'Competion for PICS?'
1994\12\16@142708 by crocontroller discussion list
flavicon
face
Dear fellow PIC fans


EAT THIS! :-)

How does a 20 pin micro with 128 bytes RAM, 2K reprogrammable FLASH memory,
15 I/O lines, Serial IO, 5 Interrupts, 2 Timers etc sound to you?  Well
this is exactly what ATMEL came up with in their new AT89C251 microcontroller
that is just being released.  The chip is fully compatible with normal
8051 microcontrollers except for the fact that it's smaller, has less I/O
pins and draw less current.  Just think of all the high-level compilers that
you can use with these devices.  Hows that for competion for PIC's?

I know this newsgroup is about PIC microcontrollers and NOT its competitors,
but I think that I am more likely to find a solution to my problem from
you guys than anywhere else.  My problem is namely this :

I'm very urgently trying to build a programmer for these devices.  However
so far I was very unsuccesfull in locating programming info or algorithms
on how to do this.  Even when I wrote to ATMEL themselves they only send
a data sheet which did not contain the vital info.  A article in Usenet
sci.electronics also yielded no results.  Any comments would be appreciated.

Just by the way speaking of programmers : I have build a very succesfull
low cost programmer for above chip's bigger brothers (the AT89C51 and
87C51).  The programmer can be build for under $100.  If anyone is
interested in building one for themselves I can send them the Orcad
schematic drawings as well as the software to implement it.  Just
email directly to me at:

  TakeThisOuTwterrebEraseMEspamspam_OUTactive.co.za


Best regards

Werner Terreblanche


1994\12\16@174808 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
> How does a 20 pin micro with 128 bytes RAM, 2K reprogrammable FLASH memory,
> 15 I/O lines, Serial IO, 5 Interrupts, 2 Timers etc sound to you?  Well
> this is exactly what ATMEL came up with in their new AT89C251 microcontroller
> that is just being released.  The chip is fully compatible with normal
> 8051 microcontrollers except for the fact that it's smaller, has less I/O
> pins and draw less current.  Just think of all the high-level compilers that
> you can use with these devices.  Hows that for competion for PIC's?

I've used quite a few of the 40-pin 89C51 micros and they are indeed nice.
They aren't however as frugal with power as the smaller PIC chips and
they cost quite a bit more (don't know about the '251). The last time
we bought 89C51's they were around $11.00 ea for 500 pieces and the
89C52's (8052 compatible) was around $15.00.

I will concede the point about languages though--my C compiler with
floating point, etc. does tend to spoil me!

We were told by our Atmel rep (also our MicroChip rep by the way) that
Atmel sees the 89Cxx processors more as alternatives to prototyping
with 87Cxx series parts than they do for production use. I think
if they looked more towards people that use them in larger quantities
to set pricing they could own a much more significant share of the
market.

That's enough. Don't want the topic police after me...   :)

Tim McDonough -- RemoveMEtimmedspamTakeThisOuTcencom.net


'Intel HEX formats'
1995\01\04@160505 by crocontroller discussion list
flavicon
face
>
>Is the format of the Intel HEX file available in electronic format
>somewhere?  Or is it so simple that someone can just quote it in an
>e-mail message?




The Intel Hex Format is viewable by a text editor where you will find
the following for example.

:10000000050C24001f00C4401430684056000E40332
:06001000020A00000000DE
:00000001FF

Looking at the second line for reference you have:

The new line marker   :
Then the first two bytes are the number of data bytes in the record  06
Then is a 4 byte address   0010
Followed by the record type   00    (01 means EOF)
Then the actual data bytes followed by a two byte check sum    DE

The check sum is the 2's complement of all preceding bytes in the record for
example:

6h + 10h + 2h + Ah = 22h = 00100010b

Take 2's complement =      11011101b

                            +    1
                          _________

                          11011110b   = DEh

I hope this helps.

Joseph D. West
Electronics Lab. Supervisor
College of Mechanical Eng.
Ohio State University

(614) 292-2845
Fax (614) 292-3163

1995\01\05@001901 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
Jason E Gorden wrote:

>Is the format of the Intel HEX file available in electronic format
>somewhere?
> ....
>I just want to write a simple filter to add device information to the
>output generated by the PCM C compiler for use with PEP84 and the
>Parallax programmer.

Jason:

Be careful... The addresses in the HEX file may not correspond exactly
to the addresses in your PIC, since the 16C84 uses 14-bit words and the
Intel Hex (8-Bit Merged) format expects only an 8-bit byte at each
address.

A quick look at the output of your compiler, using the information Joe
West posted, should make the correspondence between actual addresses
and HEX-file addresses clear.

-Andy


--
Andrew Warren - fastfwdEraseMEspam.....ix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

'General Information on PIC's'
1995\01\31@095237 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
       Is there anything similar to a frequently asked questions list
concerning PIC's?  I hear these chips described as reduced instruction set
devices.  As one who has written assembly code for the 6502, 68HC11, and 8086,
what does this actually mean?
       How many instructions per second can the garden-variety PIC's execute?

       It seems that one good possible use for one of these devices would
be to give a second life to a cast-off infrared remote control.  One could
feed the proprietary data stream from the remote to a PIC and program the
PIC to convert this format into ASCII or whatever to allow one to add remote
control capabilities to a project.  In order to do this well, the PIC would
need to have shift and test capabilities and other such bit-wise operations
so that one could build data frames.

       Finally, I saw a project in "QST" magazine which used a PIC1654
as a Morse Code generator.  The device had a clock composed of a RC timing
circuit so that one could vary the speed by changing the R component.  Can
these devices also run off of a crystal or an external timing signal derived
from a crystal?
Thank you for any and all tidbits of information.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ   Stillwater, OK
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group


'Looking for a Programmer / Engineer'
1995\02\04@044630 by Don Lekei
picon face
Fellow PIC list members,

If anyone out there is an experianced PIC and (other processor) programmer and
Electronics Engineer or experienced Technologist, and are living in or planning
to move to the Vancouver BC area and looking for a permanent position (or you
know someone who is) contact me.

Experince that would be an asset would include video (AM and FM), audio and data
communications, microwave, RF or baseband satellite and cable. PIC (ASPIC
preferably) and/or 6502 (or Mitsubish 37700 etc.) assembly language and C, DOS,
Windows, C and Visual Basic.

We have 2 immediate openings to fill.

Cheers, all.

I hope messages like this are not out of line here in the list. If they are, I
appologise, flame me, I can take it.

Don Lekei
EraseME72677.2623spamcompuserve.com

NII Norsat International Inc.
302-12886 78th Ave.
Surrey, BC
V3W 8E7

Fax: (604) 597-6214
Voice: (604) 597-6200

'C-Compiler vs. Macro assembler (for small PIC:s)'
1995\02\06@035443 by Conny Andersson

picon face
I have read the messages about various "big machine" c-compilers which may be
portable to pic:s. I must say that there is no reason to program a 0,5k to 4k
microprocessor using such a compiler. It's probably better to use the powerful
macro features in MPASM to make small code fragments and make code writing
easier.

I usually start a project by writing special macros for input and output such as
TSW SkipON and TSW SkipOFF. This macro tests input from a port pin (Tilt Switch
connected) and if this input is ON the next instruction is skipped. If you need
to change pin function, just edit the macros.
I also have a couple of macros for conditional jumps (test for carry, zero, ...)

If we are talking about the 16C42 when used in microprocessor mode you might
want a C-compiler ... (it takes time to write 64k of assembler instructions).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conny Andersson / LiTH

'Simple Pascal Compiler for PIC'
1995\02\07@163233 by Ian Munro

picon face
Dear all,

As there has been a lot of interest in C compilers for the PIC, I
thought people might be interested in my current attempt at a Pascal
compiler for the 16C84.
The compiler needs ms windose and can successfully compile
simple pascal programs. It produces hex files with which i've
programmed a 16C84 (and it acutally worked!).
The compiler is still very much in the early stages of development,
but if anyone wants to get it then the src and exe's then they
are ftpable at dragon.herts.ac.uk:/pub/PIC/PICDEV.
I would be interested to hear if people think it is worth carrying on
with or if it's a waste of time and space.

Ian




******************************************************************************
Ian Munro - Electronic Engineering
University of Hertforshire, College Lane,
Hatfield, Hertforshire.
England
Email:   RemoveMEI.MunroEraseMEspamEraseMEherts.ac.uk
            RemoveMEIanspam_OUTspamKILLspamdragon.herts.ac.uk
Tel:  +44(0) 1707 284160
******************************************************************************


'Tools for 16c71'
1995\03\06@150449 by Alex Freed
picon face
Hi everybody,

I have encountered a problem I didn't expect - couldn't find a consistent
set of tools for the '71 chip!
I have a program written for the 16c54, that I wanted to "port" to a '61
and then enhance. Supposedly the '71 mode of assemblers should produce
correct code. Since my original program was written in Microchip mnemonics
and was using macros, I decided to try the Microchip assembler. It does
assemble the code, but no simulator would handle it!

1. I try the new MPASM that Microchip recommends. It generates a .hex
file, not .obj and no .sym file. The Parallax's PSIM won't recognize the
.lst format, the Windows version generates a General Protection Error, and
the Microchip's own MPSIM wants the .obj file. Renaming .hex to .obj
doesn't help much.

2. I try the MPALC assembler. It does produce both the .sym and the .obj
files. The object is supposedly in the INHX8M format. I start the MPSIM.
It doesn't complain, but doesn't interpret the object file right either -
even the first instruction looks bad and hex file's checksums are
interpreted as code! And the doc claims that the default format is INHX8M.

So the questions part:
1. How to use the tools correctly for the '71 PIC? Which assembler and
what options.
2. Is there an automated or semi-automated way to translate the Microchip
mnemonics source into Parallax source. I know that PASM is supposed to
handle the Microchip mnemonics, but it sure doesn't like macros in my file.
I would hand edit it as a last resourt, if I new the Parallax tools will work.

Thanks.

--
-Alex

'Thanks for reply '
1995\03\15@104012 by James L. Johnson

flavicon
face
Hi Jory,

  Thanks very much for your reply concerning solving of equations (with
natural logs in them).  You've probably read my general reponse, which
shows that in my application a lookup table (not huge) would be plenty
sufficient for what I am trying to do.  But I would be interested in the
topic of finding easy PICable ways to do natural logs if the information
is readily available.  I'd hate to have somebody spend an hour digging
through their attic.

  Thanks again,

  Jim Johnson
  RemoveMEjjohnsonTakeThisOuTspamspamhpl.hp.com

'FAQ for David Tait's 16C84 programmer'
1995\03\15@114038 by David Tait

flavicon
face
Hi,

I think I've been fairly quiet recently, but I expect most of you
don't want to hear about my programmer yet again.  However, the ever
increasing exposure of PICs in hobby magazines has meant that I am
getting more mail than ever about my DOS based 16C84 programmer.  I
know my stuff is not without it's problems, but I hope a lot of people
are able get it going without too much hassle.  Of course others need
some help and I spend a little of my time every week giving advice by
e-mail.  I'm sure there are still others that have thrown the thing in
the bin in sheer frustration.

To help these people, and perhaps ease my e-mail burden, I have put
together a FAQ file.  It can obtained from the circuit cookbook site
at the University of Alberta as:

ftp://ftp.ee.ualberta.ca/pub/cookbook/comp/ibm/pic84faq.zip

(The programmer stuff is in the same directory as pic84pgm.zip)

Here is a short description of pic84faq.zip:

This file contains answers to frequently asked questions about the
simple 16C84 programmer distributed in PIC84PGM.ZIP.  If you have had
problems getting it working grab this.  Even if you have got it
working, it is worth picking up because it also includes C and QBasic
source to demonstrate how to dump 16C84 program memory as an Intel
Hex file  (No.  The programs can't read protected PICs :-)

If it helps you resurrect an abandoned attempt at getting my programmer
going let me know!

David
--
EraseMEdavid.taitspamspamspamBeGoneman.ac.uk

'No messages for more than a week'
1995\03\25@105727 by METMKALLEND

flavicon
face
I have received no PIC digests for more than a week now.  ARe you
all on vacation, or is something wrong with the listserver?

I guess an e-mail answer would be best, since I'm not getting the list.
Address is RemoveMEMETMKALLENDKILLspamspamMINNA.IIT.EDU

Thanks.


jk


'(Fwd) FS: PICSTART development system for Microchi'
1995\04\03@170644 by Henry Carl Ott
picon face
I remember somebody was looking for a picstart.
Saw this in sci.electronics and thought I'd repost it.

In sci.electronics Dave Fors said:
 FOR SALE:  Microchip's PICSTART-16B1 development system.

Microchip's PICSTART-16B1 development system provides design engineers a
fast, easy and very
low-cost way to begin evaluation and code developmenbt of PIC
microcontroller products.  The
PICSTART-16B1 comes complete with:
   assembler and simulator software
   programmer board
   PIC16CXX product samples
   supports the full range of PIC16C54/C55/C56/C57, PIC16C71 and PIC16C8
products
   90-250VAC - 50/60 Hz power supply
   RS-232 cable
   Assembler Manual
   Simulator Manual.

System documentation includes Microchip's new Embedded Control Application
Handbook and the
Microchip Product Data Book.  The PICSTART-16B1 programmer board accepts
18- and 28-lead
PIC16CXX devices.  System software includes MPALC Assembler, MPSIM
Simulator and
programmer software to read and program all PIC16CXX products.  MPALC is a
PC hosted
symbolic cross assembler used to convert source code into object code.
MPSIM is a very efficient
discrete event software simulator designed to imitate the operation of all
PIC16CXX
microcontrollers.

Digi-Key price $195.  Your price $125 shipping within USA included.
(PICSTART never taken out
of box or used).  I'm selling it because I got into computer servicing
instead of hardware design.

Dave Fors
forsSTOPspamspamspam_OUTrio.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
later .......

carl

Henry Carl Ott       N2RVQ
spamBeGonecarlSTOPspamspamEraseMEpipeline.com
------------------------------------------------
No wife, no horse, no spell checker.
------------------------------------------------

'FP package for pics, 16C74'
1995\04\27@134555 by Markus Imhof

flavicon
face
>I have looked at the FP package for the pics from the MC BBS. It only
>supports basic FP stuff.  Is there any place with a FP package that
>supports trig, log, etc...
>
>Is there a C that has FP built in?
>
>Thanks
>
>Mark

I don't know about the above, but check out an algorithm called CORDIC. It
provides a set of fixed-point trigonometric functions in an iterative
algorithm.
There are probably other references, I'm giving you the ones I've got
(Article plus references from that article):

Zahlenmuehle
Rafael Daliano, Raimund Perz
in elrad issue 3 1995, Heise Verlag, Hannover
p. 30

J.E. Volder
The CORDIC Trigonometric Computing Technique
IRE-EC 1959 (!)
p. 330

J.S. Walther
A unified algorithm for elementary functions
Spring Joint Computer Conference (SJCC) 1971
p. 379

Hope this helps a bit. I thought it is quite interesting. This algorithm
can deliver sin, cos, atan, sinh, cosh, atanh, division with nothing more
than a few add, multiply and shift operations.

Bye
 Markus


'Forth for PIC? Cheap or PD C?'
1995\05\16@092217 by Albert J. Fahey
flavicon
picon face
In article <KILLspam01HPRQ2R36B6B8IJGSspamBeGonespamHAMLET.CALTECH.EDU>, Andrew Warren
<EraseMEfastfwdspamEraseMEIX.NETCOM.COM> says:
>
>Daniel Mahoney (@spam@dmahoney@spam@spamspam_OUTnetcom.com) wrote:
>
>>Can anyone point me to a Forth cross-compiler that targets these
>>chips?
>
>There's a public-domain Forth on Microchip's BBS targeted for the
>17C42... If you can't find it, let me know in e-mail and I'll give you
>more specific directions to it.

What about C?  And/or Forth for the 16CXX stuff?
Byte Craft C is just way too expensive ... it's not
like it has a floating point package or something
really cool ...

Albert

'Forth for PIC? - 16C84 minimal Forth'
1995\05\17@061401 by Brian Robinson

flavicon
face
>Daniel Mahoney (spamBeGonedmahoneyspamKILLspamnetcom.com) wrote:
>
>>Can anyone point me to a Forth cross-compiler that targets these
>>chips?

Dear Daniel,
       The following information is over a year old, but may still be
valid.  A minimal Forth-like development system (and information on it) is
available from:

Alan M Robertson,
RAM Technology Systems Ltd.,
3 Kellaway Road,
Poole,
Dorset, BH17 7PD.
England

FAX  44 (0) 1258 456410.

It costs about 230 pounds plus 10 pounds carriage plus VAT at 17.5% in its
full form for hardware programmer and software development system.  It
consists of a  'Smart-ICEPIC' which will program PIC 16C64/71/84, with a
header or cable to plug into the target system for ICE development.
Programming software runs on a PC using a few pins on the parallel printer
port.

However, the interesting part is that for the 16C84 there is a small
Forth-like 'Target Link Monitor' TLM, which lives in the PIC, of only about
120 EEPROM program words containing the code for the Forth words:

 STACK>   >STACK   fC@    SP@    EXECUTE   FREEZE   PIC.RESET  SERVER

These can be executed by sending the execution address down the same 2 wire
serial connection to the unit that is used for programming it.  The STACK>
word waits for the host to send two bytes of data.  The word EXECUTE
performes a computed goto to this value as a CFA code field address.  The
SERVER word consists of

: SERVER  ( S - )  BEGIN  >STACK  >STACK  EXECUTE  AGAIN ;

so two 16 bit values arrive over the serial link, are put on the stack and
consist of an address which is executed.  A method of examining register
contents is:

       STATUS  fC@  H.

where STATUS is translated on the host, before sending information to the
target PIC.  The host system on the PC is F-PC from Tom Zimmer which holds
the dictionary etc for the target PIC.  There is also a library of useful
Forth word extensions etc.

At any time you can permanently load in extra words to the EEPROM by
programming them in, then switch back to interactive testing.  Although the
initial words provided are minimal, the system can be extended with
whatever new words are desired.

The philosophy seems excellent for interactive development on a minimal
system.  I am trying to decide whether to take the plunge and buy one!

       Brian Robinson

::From::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: Brian Robinson,                  _/_/_/    _/_/_/              Faraday A38 :
: Environmental Science Division, _/    _/  _/    _/                         :
: I.E.B.S.,                      _/_/_/    _/_/_/    Tel: +44 (0)1524 593922 :
: Lancaster University,         _/    _/  _/  _/     FAX: +44 (0)1524 593985 :
: Lancaster, LA1 4YQ, U.K.     _/_/_/    _/    _/ .....B.Robinsonspam_OUTspamlancaster.ac.uk :
:::::::::::::: http://es-sv1.lancs.ac.uk/people/teach/br.html ::::::::::::::::

'Real-Time Clock for 16C84?'
1995\05\17@175717 by Henry Carl Ott

picon face
>*>I am developing a 16C84 PIC based product with and RS-232 interface and a
>*>Real-Time Clock.  Any hints, suggestions or recommendations?
>*>
>*>Dan Garlen
>
>For the clock:  Philips PCF8573 or PCF8583 - Since the `84 has I2C
>built in these should work fine.
>
>
Wait a second. Since when does the '84 have I2C built in? On the other
hand it does not take much code to handle the I2C primitives. If you just
want to talk to a single I2C slave (such as the PCF8583) then it really is no
problem at all.

Speaking of which.

I have on hand a quantity of SMD PCF8583 (I2C real time clock,with 256
bytes ram) that I don't have an immediate use for. If anybody wants some for
experimental uses then send a self addressed stamped envelope to the below
address and I'll drop a couple of chips along with 32khz xtals into it and
smail it back to you. Keep in mind these are surface mount devices.
I'm doing this as a favor to readers of this list who have problems getting
samples. So to keep things from getting out of hand I'm limiting it to the
first 25 people and only one offer per address. As for data sheets and such
you're on your own.

Henry Carl Ott
22 Nixon Ave.
Staten ISland, NY 10304-2210

later....carl

----------------------------------------
Henry Carl Ott      N2RVQ
TakeThisOuTcarlott.....spamTakeThisOuTinterport.net, TakeThisOuTcarlKILLspamspamspampipeline.com
http://www.interport.net/~carlott/
----------------------------------------

1995\05\18@053243 by Conny Andersson

picon face
> Greetings,
>
> I am new to this ... I hope I'm doing this right!
>
> I am developing a 16C84 PIC based product with and RS-232 interface and a
> Real-Time Clock.  Any hints, suggestions or recommendations?

Dan,
Tell us what you are up to and we will be able to give you some advice,
otherwise, look for the appropriate application notes.
-----------------------
Conny Andersson / LiTH

1995\05\18@101526 by Aaron Sliwenkski

flavicon
face
*>Aaron Sliwenkski <.....aaronsspamRemoveMEIHS.COM> writes:
*>> *>I am developing a 16C84 PIC based product with and RS-232 interface and a
*>> *>Real-Time Clock.  Any hints, suggestions or recommendations?
*>> *>
*>> *>Dan Garlen
*>>
*>> For the clock:  Philips PCF8573 or PCF8583 - Since the `84 has I2C
*>> built in these should work fine.
*>
*>The '84 has I2C built in? I don't think so. If you want this, you
*>must implement protocols in software, and there's no I2C support in
*>hardware either. This does take up a certain amount of the (limited)
*>memory, of course....
*>
*>Richard H

You're right, I was thinking of the `74, but if one wants to use an
external clock the two wire interface is superior to any of the parallel
approaches that suck up a bunch more pins that could be put to better use.
I agree the `84 is a bit cramped for code space in comparison to the `74
but the code to implement the interface protocol is very simple and may
be worth the memory.

1995\05\18@103229 by Jordanis Haralampopoulos

flavicon
face
You wrote:

>>*>I am developing a 16C84 PIC based product with and RS-232 interface

and a
>>*>Real-Time Clock.  Any hints, suggestions or recommendations?
>>*>
>>*>Dan Garlen
>>
>>For the clock:  Philips PCF8573 or PCF8583 - Since the `84 has I2C
>>built in these should work fine.
>The '84 doesn't have I2C built in (oh how I wish it did).  I think it
is the
>'64
>that does have it.
>

Correct, there is no I2C on the 16C84. But for real time clock why
don't you try the Dallas Semiconductors TimeInaCan(DS1494 TIC). It
takes only one I/O pin and some code to communicate with it.
Has 4K of memory, alarms, interupts on alarm and more....


Jordanis Haralampopoulos

279 Bloomfield Ave.
Bloomfield, NJ 07003
(201)748-5988

Email: RemoveMEjordanisspamspamBeGoneix.netcom.com
      72730,761 on Compuserve

'Real-Time Clock for 16C84? (PIC's and TICs)'
1995\05\18@115354 by gorden

flavicon
face
On Thu, 18 May 1995, Jordanis Haralampopoulos wrote:

> Correct, there is no I2C on the 16C84. But for real time clock why
> don't you try the Dallas Semiconductors TimeInaCan(DS1494 TIC). It
> takes only one I/O pin and some code to communicate with it.
> Except if you are looking for something that has a wake-up
> function..... to wake-up a sleeping uP......

I have used the TIC with a 16C84 in a design.  I wrote the support code
for the 1 wire protocol one night over a six pack.  So it's not a major
time investment in software.  But it is nice to have a scope available so
you can see if there is a hardware (i.e. pull-up resistor) or software
i.e. timing or TRIS register problem.

I wrote the routine in C (CCS compiler) -- I know people on this list
think that is a sin, but it simplified the job in my opinion.  I can
send you the C (and the compiler generated assembler) if you would like.

Jason

'Request for info on PIC <--> RS232 interfacing.'
1995\05\19@100227 by Chris Madden

flavicon
face
RS232 interfacing made easy.

What you need:
--------------
               1. MAX232 / MAX233

Why you need:
-------------
               1. VOLTAGE LEVEL CONVERSION
                  -------------------------
                  The MAX232/3 acts as a voltage level converter.
                   It converts the 0/5V TTL level of the PIC to
                   +12/-12V level of the RS232 target system.
                  The MAX232 employs a charge pump to achieve the
                   larger voltage. The charge pump requires external
                   resistors / capacitors for the MAX232.
                  The MAX233 has these resistors / capacitors on chip &
                   therefore offers a SINGLE CHIP TTL <--> RS232 VOLTAGE
                   LEVEL CONVERTER.

What you need to know:
----------------------
               The MAX232/3 contains two receive & two transmit buffers
                (ie you can convert two different TTL signals to RS232 &
                two different RS232 signals to TTL).
               For a bare-bones-up-and-running-quickly implementation
                you need only one transmit and one receive buffer.
               For handshaking (if it's necessary) the spare transmit and
                receive buffer can be used for CLEAR_TO_SEND (CTS) and
                REQUEST_TO_SEND (RTS) signals.
                Using these spare buffers in this way will improve
                 communication reliability.


Example (My first attempt at ascii art!) :
--------
BARE-BONES-UP-AND-RUNNNG-QUICKLY IMPLEMENTATION:


       [RS232:+12/-12V]                              [TTL:0/5V]
                            MAX232/3                      PIC
                               ___                        ___
                                |   +5V                    |   +5V
                            ---------                   -------
                           |         |          RB0    |       |
       TARGET TX           |   |\    |          PIC RX |       |
               ________\___|___| \___|__\______________|       |_____
                       /   |   | /   |  /              |       |     |
                           |   |/    |                 |       |    ----
                           |         |          RB1    |       |    ||||
       TARGET RX           |    /|   |          PIC TX |       |    ----
               ________/___|___/ |___|__/______________|       |_____|
                       \   |   \ |   |  \              |       | crystal
                           |    \|   |                 |       |
                           |         |                 |       |
                            ---------                   -------
                                |                           |
                                |      Ground              ----
                              ----                         \  /
                              \  /                          \/
                               \/


       TARGET GROUND                                   PIC GROUND

                 _______________________________________
                |                                       |
                |                                       |
              ----                                     ----
              \  /                                     \  /
               \/                                       \/

The PIC exteranal interrupt pin may be used to signal the receipt of a START
bit. The remaining bits are then received in software from this pin.


Where to find out more:
-----------------------
               1. PIC AN510 application note: "implementation of an
                  asynchronous Serial I/O" at various PIC ftp sites.
               2. Serial communications FAQs:
            http://www.paranoia.com/~filipg/HTML/LINK/PORTS/F_Parallel.html




       Take Care,
               Chris Madden


1995\05\19@121750 by Paul Greenwood

flavicon
face
> RS232 interfacing made easy.
>
> What you need:
> --------------
>                 1. MAX232 / MAX233

Anyone know of a solution like this that allows you to tri-state the RS232
outputs?  (The +/-12V side - NOT the TTL side.)

--
           -- Paul Greenwood --  (spamBeGonepablo@spam@spamspam_OUTaustin.ibm.com)
For an idea to be fashionable is ominous, since it must afterwards be
always old-fashioned.

"His super power is to turn into a scotch terrier."

1995\05\20@182158 by Timothy McDonough DIAL UP1

flavicon
face
Some of the Linear Technology RS232 transcievers let you externally
shut down the chip, I don't recall if it puts the inputs and outputs
in a high-Z state.

On Fri, 19 May 1995, Paul Greenwood wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1995\05\21@173840 by Doug Sellner

flavicon
face
>> RS232 interfacing made easy.
>>
>> What you need:
>> --------------
>>                 1. MAX232 / MAX233
>
>Anyone know of a solution like this that allows you to tri-state the RS232
>outputs?  (The +/-12V side - NOT the TTL side.)
>
>--
>            -- Paul Greenwood --  (pabloEraseMEspamaustin.ibm.com)
>For an idea to be fashionable is ominous, since it must afterwards be
>always old-fashioned.
>
>"His super power is to turn into a scotch terrier."


I'm no expert but I might try using a diode to turn the RS232 Level to
pullup only and use a terminating resistor to pull the line low at the end
of your chain of devices.

Doug Sellner
Beach Tech
4131 Vincent Avenue South
Minneapolis MN 55410

Voice (612) 924-9193 x 521
Fax   (612) 926-1145

Internet: RemoveMEdsellnerEraseMEspamspam_OUTembay.com

'Protel library for Microchip devices'
1995\05\22@093859 by Gary Gaskell

flavicon
picon face
Could someone point me to a library for microchip devices for Protel?

In particular I am interested in a library that might contain a PIC 16C57.

regards


Gary Gaskell                         Cooperative Research Centre for
Research Scientist                   Distributed Systems Technology
DSTC                                 Ph:   61 7 864 1051
Level 12, ITE Building               Fax:  61 7 864 1282
Queensland University of Technology  Email:  @spam@gaskellRemoveMEspamEraseMEdstc.edu.au
Brisbane, Australia.
_________________________________________________________________


'Request for "Universal PIC programmer" magazine in'
1995\06\06@043623 by Chris Madden
flavicon
face
The following info is taken from ETI magazine and should enable
those in the US to obtain both issues (May & June 1995) of ETI,
detailing the design/construcion of both H/W & S/W for a
universal PIC Programmer.
(If you (can) order the article alone (not the entire magazine) bear )
( in mind that the PCB foils are usually at the back of the magazine,)
( and not in the article itself.                                     )


ETI (Electronics Today International)
=====================================
=====================================

<< Don't know if this is relevant but I'll include it anyway:  >>
       ABC (Audit Bureau of Circulations)
       ISSN 0142-7229
       Consumer Press


Publisher / Overseas / Back Issue Address:
==========================================
       * 1. Published by ARGUS SPECIALIST PUBLICATIONS:
       * 2. Overseas & non-newstrade sales by Magazine Sales Department:
       * 3. Back Issues can be obtained from:
          (1., 2., 3. have the same address:)
               Argus House, Boundary Way,
               Hemel Hempstead HP2 7ST,
               England.
               tel. : (0442) 66551
               fax. : (0442) 66998


USA Subscription:
=================
       Subscription Rates:   (Published Monthly)
               US Dollars Overseas $56.00
               Sterling Overseas   k31.00
               << This answers the question: "how much is k35?" >>

       US subscriptions by Wise Owl Worldwide Publications,
       4314 West 238th Street, Torrance, CA90505 USA

       Visa/Mastercard orders in USA:
       tel. : (310) 375 6258
       fax. : (310) 375 0548
       Pacific Time: 9am  - 9pm Weekdays
                     10am - 6pm Weekends



===========================================================================

The magazine doesn't give an email/www/ftp... address.

Hope this helps,
               Chris Madden
               EraseMEmaddencspam@spam@itd1.ul.ie
               Now and then it's good to pause in our
               pursuit of happiness and just be happy

'Speech for PIC??'
1995\06\07@161728 by Mike Keitz

flavicon
face
>I belive you are refuring to the SPO256-al2 chip set that Radio Shack
>used to sell a few years back.
>
>One was the speech proc and the other is the interface CHIP.
>James K.
>I might have a few somwhere in my collection.

I am assuming, first of all, that Ron wanted to generate speech and not
recognize it.  That is of course, something entirely different.

In the Radio Shack set, the SPO256 chip (28 pins) actaully generated the
speech.  It could make about 50 different grunts and groans (technically
referred to as "allophones") which could be spliced together to make words.
It didn't sound very good, but theoretically it could say any word.  The
other chip in the set was a ROMmed microcontroller (TI 7000 series?) which
would convert ASCII text into commands for the SPO256, attempting to use
phonics to pronounce any word that went into it.  Considering what it was,
it worked fairly well.  I don't know if either chip is available now.

For generating only a few words, a process which stores the complete words
and plays them back will probably produce better fidelity.  I think TI and
National have chipsets to do that.  I don't know the part numbers offhand.
I have here a surplus board which I know generates speech, it has TI chips
TMS5220CNL and CM62210NL on it.  They were made in 1986 and may be obsolete
by now as well.

Another possiblity is the analog voice recorder chip currently sold by Radio
Shack.  But I think they cost $10 apiece even if you don't buy them from
Radio Shack, and also each one would have to be 'programmed' before use by
feeding analog into it.  These chips work by storing proportioned amounts of
charge on EEPROM cells (kind of like trying to crack a 16C84, right), so
each 'bit' is actually an entire sample.  I think there are versions that
integrate an audio PA as well, so that could save another chip to drive the
speaker.

If you're really into do it yourself,  you could sample the words and store
them in digital memory.  About 8K bytes per second of speech would be
required, perhaps in an EPROM or Flash ROM.  Depending on how much else the
PIC has to do, it would be involved in the playback to varying degrees.


-Mike

1995\06\07@175442 by Steve Robinson

flavicon
face
         Try ISD's voice recorder and playback device from Jameco
         Electronics 415-592-8097 or Radio Shack.  My students have
         used it with pretty good success.

         Steve Robinson Lebanon High School
         @spam@Steve_Robinsonspam_OUTspam.....lebanon.k12.or.us

1995\06\08@055000 by Siegfried Grob

flavicon
face
Ron Hackett wrote:
I am looking for a simple (one chip) solution to add basic speech
capabilities to a PIC project.  All I need is the digits 0-9 and a few other
words (seconds, minutes, hours, go, stop, time, etc.)  Years ago I remember
seeing a chip that had this and many other basic control words built in.  Is
anything like that still available??
----------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ron and all other PICcers,

I know three companies, who offer single-chip-solutions for speech/sound repro-
duction:
OKI, NEC and UMC (if somebody knows more, please let me know!)).

Also there exist preprogrammed sound ICs with the IC-code HTnnnn (nnnn is a
number), maybe somebody can tell me the name of the manufacturer???
(Conrad electronic offers them in Germany).

back to OKI, NEC and UMC:
normally all ICs of these manufacturers are thought to be used in high
quantity production.
UMC-ICs are the simplest and cheapest one, offering 4..15 samples at 3..20
seconds sampling time (at about 6 kHz). Only in ROM-version available,
min. order 20.000 pieces :-). They seem to be the right choice for cheap
toy applications. There exist preprogrammed ICs with farm sound (horse, cow,...)
car sound (starting, braking, horn), or animals (seal, lion, ...).

NEC offer better quality ICs, an OTP-version also exists. You will need a
development system, so uninteresting for hobby interests.

OKI offers best quality chips with various features: Speech reproduction only
and Speech recording&reproduction. One family of their chips offers a
certain voice memory (4,8,16,32 seconds @ 8 kHz) but this memory can be freely
partitioned into max. 111 phrases, so you can save max. 111 samples.
You need an expensive development system (of course) but OKI also offers
preprogrammed chips for clock applications. So if you want to say only the
time and date, or numbers from 0..59 this seems to be the adequate chip for
you.
If you need further info, please let me know.
If somebody has any experiece with OKI chips, please let me know - especially
if you know a method/programm to convert WAV-files into OKI's PCM/ADPCM-file-
format!!!

If this OKI-chip will not fit your requirements, the simply user programmable
ISD-chips may be the right solution.


Siggi


Siegfried Grob,                                   |
student of electrical engineering,                |
university of ulm, germany                        |
e-mail:  spamBeGonesiegfried.grobEraseMEspamstudent.uni-ulm.de        |
tel&fax: +49 731 25148                            |
--------------------------------------------------'

1995\06\10@082923 by Ran Talbott

flavicon
face
>The two-chip arrangement mentioned above is familiar to me but I
>can't remember the device numbers.

I think the other part number was CTS256:  it was a micro with a
text-to-speech algorithm in ROM,  and maybe a UART.

>Unfortunately, I haven't seen the SPO256 chip for a while. The last
>price for these before they disappeared was 2.5 pounds stirling
>(4 dollars US???). Cheap, I suppose, because of popularity; I don't
>know why they vanished.

They were made by General Instruments <doffing hat>.  Perhaps
a certain company,  well-known to members of the list,  acquired the
rights to those chips,  too?  Nah...

>I have two or three of these but I have to hang
>on to them. I'd be interested if a supplier was found.....

I've seen references to B.G. Micro (in Texas) when people
ask on Usenet about these.  I haven't bought from them in
years,  though,  so I don't have a catalog,  and can't confirm it.

Ran

'Robot Circuits: Capture Interface for velocity fee'
1995\06\11@155516 by leeh

picon face
* This message contains the file 'capture.tif', which has been
* uuencoded. If you are using Pegasus Mail, then you can use
* the browser's eXtract function to lift the original contents
* out to a file, otherwise you will have to extract the message
* and uudecode it manually.

end

Attachment converted: wonderlandone:capture.tif (????/----) (0000105C)

1995\06\11@155518 by leeh

picon face
I used a IR LED - phototransistor pair from radio shack to provide
velocity feedback.  The driven gear from the Meccano Errector set
had eight holes just the right size for the LED.

Lee Holeva

'More IRDA information'
1995\06\15@124613 by James L. Johnson

flavicon
face
  I have more info on the IRDA devices that people have asked about in
the past few days.  I received a pile of data sheets from the local HP
marketing guy including a preliminary sheet on the 4Mbit part.  Let me
know if you have specific questions or if you want me to Snailmail a
data sheet to you, or FAX it.  The marketing guy says:

  "HP will be putting on a series of IR seminars in Europe in the
   month of July.  For more information please contact your local
   European sales office or Sybilla Reck at 49-7031-14-2577."


 Jim Johnson
 jjohnsonspamBeGonespamhpl.hp.com

'Non-Volatile RAM for I2C.'
1995\06\22@180132 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
> I need non-volatile RAM for a PIC based design.  Because of size restraints I
> would prefer it interfaced on the I2C bus.  Also, the RAM will be used to stor
e
> individual parameters, requiring modifying single locations.

I don't know of any non-volatile RAM with I2C interface, but Philips Semiconduct
ors
have several I2C interfaced EEPROM devices. This should do the job for you, prov
iding
you don't want more than about 512 bytes.

Clyde


--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs       | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 300 5011
RemoveMEclyde@spam@spamspamBeGonehitech.com.au      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 300 5246
                         | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   | BBS:   +61 7 300 5235
                   HI-TECH C: Compiling the real world...

1995\06\23@015829 by

flavicon
face
> I need non-volatile RAM for a PIC based design.  Because of size restraints I
> would prefer it interfaced on the I2C bus.  Also, the RAM will be used to stor
e
> individual parameters, requiring modifying single locations.
>
> Does anybody know of companies that have such a product?

Usually you would use some serial EEPROM (or the 16c84). However, if
it must be RAM for some reason, you might want to try the 24KF04
by National Semiconductor.
This is a ferroelectric RAM, serially interfaced (like 24x04 of
other companies).

Mike

--
Dipl.-Ing. Michael Hermann   .....mch@spam@spamEraseMEregent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de
Lehrstuhl fuer Rechnergestuetztes Entwerfen,     Postfach 202420
Technische Universitaet Muenchen                    089/21053651

'looking for components/advices'
1995\06\23@025755 by mauricio

flavicon
face
Hi everyone!

I have a couple (or few couples?) of problems. How to begin...

So, in one my application I need a kind of voltage source switch.
Let me explain, I'm putting up a circuit (controlled by a PIC, obviously)
that have to operate from the telephone line, when active, and automatically
switch to battery power if the line fails or the circuit is in standby mode.
All this have to be VERY low power, so that the battery do not discharge
too fast (few months min.). I intendend to use a voltage comparator(s) to do
this, then the problem of reference voltage come up. I tried to use a zenner,
but it draws too much current for stabile operation. I found some voltage
reference circuits, but they need too much current/voltage to work properly.
Can I trust the battery for a stabile voltage? Has anybody any suggestion
regarding voltage references (low power 50uW?) or, better, about a
"supply controller"? The entire circuit is working at 3.0-3.3V and draws
6mA max. when functioning and about 25uA when in stand by.

Thanx in advance,


Mauricio CULIBRK

ARNE Computers d.o.o.
Cesta v Gorice 38                                   Phone:   +386 61 1233-171
61111 Ljubljana                                     Fax:     +386 61 1233-488
Slovenia                                            E-Mail:  .....mauricioRemoveMEspamarne.si
E U R O P E

'Non-Volatile RAM for I2C.'
1995\06\23@081603 by Jaroslaw Lis

flavicon
face
> I need non-volatile RAM for a PIC based design.  Because of size restraints I
> would prefer it interfaced on the I2C bus.  Also, the RAM will be used to
store
> individual parameters, requiring modifying single locations.
>
> Does anybody know of companies that have such a product?

If you can stand EEPROM rather than pure RAM, Microchip also manufactures
them, check their www. Other are Xicor and Phillips.
They behave as normal RAM - you can write single byte to them,then  read.
They are probably a bit slow on writing (I2C acknowledgement is used
to slow master down), and number of writes is limited to about 10mln per
any byte.


Jarek.

1995\06\23@122617 by Doug Sellner

flavicon
face
Re: EEPROM Endurance.

MicroChip specs only guarntee 100K  write cycles (under normal
temperature),  wouldn't want to use these for simple index variables.

{Quote hidden}

Doug Sellner
Beach Tech
4131 Vincent Avenue South
Minneapolis MN 55410

Voice (612) 924-9193 x 521
Fax   (612) 926-1145

Internet: dsellnerEraseMEspam@spam@embay.com

1995\06\23@135118 by Brian Read

flavicon
face
Phillips makes PCF8570 & 8571, 128 X 8 & 256 X 8 Static
RAMs. Both I2C devices in 8 pin packages.

Brian

1995\06\23@195001 by stle.cudenver.edu>

flavicon
face
> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:24:57 -0700
> From: Brad Morrow <RemoveMEmorrowspamspamBeGoneMOUNTAIN.ASD.SGI.COM>
> Subject: Non-Volatile RAM for I2C.
>
> I need non-volatile RAM for a PIC based design.  Because of size restraints I
> would prefer it interfaced on the I2C bus.  Also, the RAM will be used to stor
e
> individual parameters, requiring modifying single locations.
>
> Does anybody know of companies that have such a product?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Brad Morrow                                         Advanced Systems Group
> Product Design                               e-mail:    spamBeGonemorrowKILLspamspam@spam@asd.sgi.com
> Silicon Graphics, Inc.                   voice-mail:         (415)390-1311
> 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd.                         fax:         (415)961-9075
> Mountain View, CA 94039-7311
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

RAMTRON makes I2C serial FRAM parts (and SPI parts, too) in 512- and 2K-byte
sizes; the I2C parts run at 100 or 400KHz with NO WRITE WAIT.  Well, maybe
you aren't in a hurry, but it saves a few lines of code not to have to poll
for the ``done'' status from those SLOW EEPROM parts, and it's also nice to
be able to swallow 115200bps serial data into nonvolatile buffer memory.
Oh, did I mention endurance of 10^10 (10 billion) read or write cycles, and
100uA (microamps) write current?  (FRAM is ``ferroelectric RAM'' -- please
don't let the ``ferro'' confuse you -- it's not a magnetic phenomenon;
there's nothing ferrous involved; it's a polar dielectric effect with
hysteresis which is analogous to ferromagnetism).  Ramtron is in Colorado
Springs, Colorado: (719)481-7000; US:(800)545-FRAM; Fax:(719)488-9095.

Peter F. Klammer, Racom Systems Inc.                   PKlammerspam_OUTspam@spam@ACM.Org
6080 Greenwood Plaza Boulevard                            (303)773-7411
Englewood, CO  80111                                  FAX:(303)771-4708

1995\06\23@213830 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Doug Sellner (spamBeGonedsellner@spam@spamEMBAY.COM) wrote:

>MicroChip specs only guarntee 100K  write cycles (under normal
>temperature),  wouldn't want to use these for simple index variables.

Doug:

Your information is SERIOUSLY out of date... EEPROM endurance is now 10
million erase/write cycles.

By the way, Clyde Smith-Stubbs mentioned that the Philips parts max out
at 512 bytes.  Microchip have a few parts which hold 8K bytes.

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - RemoveMEfastfwdEraseMEspamKILLspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

1995\06\23@214244 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Brian Read <spamBeGonebreadspam_OUTspamRemoveMEMAXWELL.EE.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:

>Phillips makes PCF8570 & 8571, 128 X 8 & 256 X 8 Static
>RAMs. Both I2C devices in 8 pin packages.

.. And someone (Xicor or Dallas, I think) makes a chip that contains
both RAM and EEPROM.  The way it works is, you write to and read from
the RAM until your power supply gets low, then the entire RAM array is
automatically copied to EEPROM.  This gives all the advantages of both
RAM and EEPROM, but, of course, costs a little more than either alone.

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - .....fastfwdspamRemoveMEix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

'Interrupt Save/Restore for 16Cxx (was: "external r'
1995\06\27@215118 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Fernando Soares <Fernando.Manuel.Ramos.Soaresspam@spam@UNINOVA.PT> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

This works on the 16C71/61 (if you don't care about saving/restoring
PCLATH), but it will not work on any 16Cxx parts whose general-purpose
registers aren't accessible from all pages (e.g., all the other 16Cxx
devices).  For those, save registers with:

   INTW    EQU [any register on page 0]
   INTW1   EQU SAVEW + 080H

   INTS    EQU [any register on page 0]
   INTP    EQU [any register on page 0]
   INTF    EQU [any register on page 0]

   INT_SERVICE:

       MOVWF   INTW            ;STORE W-REG IN CURRENT DATA-SEGMENT.

       MOVF    STATUS,W        ;GRAB THE STATUS REGISTER.

       BCF    STATUS,RP0       ;SWITCH TO PAGE 0.

       MOVWF   INTS            ;STORE THE STATUS REGISTER.

       MOVF    PCLATH,W        ;STORE THE PCLATH REGISTER.
       MOVWF   INTP            ;

       MOVF    FSR,W           ;STORE THE FSR.
       MOVWF   INTF            ;

At the end of your interrupt-handler, do this to restore the registers:

   INT_EXIT:

       MOVF    INTF,W         ;RESTORE THE FSR.
       MOVWF   FSR             ;

       MOVF    INTP,W         ;RESTORE THE PCLATH REGISTER.
       MOVWF   PCLATH          ;

       MOVF    INTS,W         ;RESTORE THE STATUS REGISTER,
       MOVWF   STATUS          ;

       SWAPF   INTW            ;RESTORE THE W-REGISTER.
       SWAPF   INTW,W       ;

       RETFIE                  ;RETURN AND RE-ENABLE INTERRUPTS.

-Andy

P.S.  As far as I know, Klaus Borchers was the first to publicize this
pair of routines.

--
Andrew Warren - EraseMEfastfwdRemoveMEspamSTOPspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

'O/S host for cross development (was beginner downl'
1995\06\28@003734 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
> Yep, DOS -- the wonder operating system (you wonder how you can get
> any work done at all).  I've gotten the impression that embedded
> development system vendors think that upgrading to a "real" OS
> means Windows. :-(

It's not the vendors that are the problem - it's the users. We've
been using Unix for development since the year dot, cross-compiling
for DOS, and have offered compilers to run under Unix for all that
time. The number of Unix hosted compilers we've sold is miniscule compared
to the number of DOS hosted compilers. Sad but true.

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs       | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 300 5011
RemoveMEclydeKILLspamspamTakeThisOuThitech.com.au      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 300 5246
                         | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   | BBS:   +61 7 300 5235
                   HI-TECH C: Compiling the real world...

'PIC programmer for Mac?'
1995\06\29@165209 by R Duflon

flavicon
face
I'd like to be able to program PIC16Cxx parts from a Mac (and on a budget).
I already own a Parallax PIC16Cxx Programmer for the PC, and am wondering
if anyone has worked out a Mac interface and software, or if the comm
protocol is in the public domain.

Alternatively, recommendations for a Mac based programmer would also be
appreciated.  Thanks for any and all help!

Ray
spamBeGonerduflonspam@spam@cup.portal.com

1995\06\29@194615 by Reg Neale

flavicon
face
On Jun 29,  1:18pm, R Duflon wrote:
|Subject: PIC programmer for Mac?
| I'd like to be able to program PIC16Cxx parts from a Mac (and on a budget).
| I already own a Parallax PIC16Cxx Programmer for the PC, and am wondering
| if anyone has worked out a Mac interface and software, or if the comm
| protocol is in the public domain.
|
| Alternatively, recommendations for a Mac based programmer would also be
| appreciated.  Thanks for any and all help!
|
| Ray
| RemoveMErduflonspam_OUTspamcup.portal.com
|-- End of excerpt from R Duflon

The Microchip tools will work under SoftPC on a Mac. But, the communications
protocols are different, so the programmer itself cannot exchange info with
the computer.

I attended the Microchip seminar yesterday, and asked if there were any
plans to develop a suite of tools for users with Macs. In response, the
instructor asked all those who would use the Mac tools if they were
available to raise their hands. Only three of us out of about a hundred
and fifty people raised their hands. The instructor said "There, that's
the answer to your question. We aren't going to get into the Mac
development tool business." So it looks like you and I and the rest of
the rest of the Mac users are SOL.

I bought an old XT just for the sole purpose of running MPASM, MPSIM
etc.

Regards,
Reg


*Reg Neale=nealespamspamee.rochester.edu ....standard disclaimer applies...*
*..."Ignorance is a renewable resource."....P.J. O'Rourke............*

'Xtals for PICs'
1995\06\29@201353 by Otmar Ebenhoech

picon face
       Last time I tried to get those little round Epson 4 MHz Xtals from
Digikey they were out of stock.
       I tried the CTX006 microprocessor crystals by CTS and found that
they didn't work very well. I got lots of crashes and the occilator would
quit every time I put a probe on OSC1. This didn't happen with the small
ones.
       Does anyone have any good sources for 4 Mhz crystals that work well
on the pic?
TIA

-Otmar-

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                       Electric Vehicle Components Ltd.
        It's often said that life is strange, But compared to what? sf
     Otmar Ebenhoech           spam_OUTtessspam_OUTspamspam_OUTnetcom.com            (415) 494-9255
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------

'PIC programmer for Mac?'
1995\06\30@054640 by Karl Grabe

flavicon
face
Mail*Link(r) SMTP               RE>>PIC programmer for Mac?


       Reply to:   RE>>PIC programmer for Mac?

I've tried running picstart 16b on a mac running SoftPC.
It does work but only on 'fastish' machines like a pb180. Slower machines have
problems with communication timouts.
-Karl

--------------------------------------
Date: 6/29/95 16:51
To: Karl Grabe
From: pic microcontroller discussion
On Jun 29,  1:18pm, R Duflon wrote:
|Subject: PIC programmer for Mac?
| I'd like to be able to program PIC16Cxx parts from a Mac (and on a budget).
...snip snip ..

1995\06\30@092419 by Reg Neale

flavicon
face
On Jun 30, 12:05am, jory bell wrote:
|Subject: Re: PIC programmer for Mac?
| uChip's comments about not supporting the Mac (recounted below at a
| seminar) seem quite lame given their stubborn use of a totally non-stadard
| serial protocol for their tools. Were it not for this totally unnecessary
| anti-standard, SoftPC (or the DOS-compatability card for the newer Macs)
| would at least get us into the development game without buying Actual
| Wintel hardware.

You're right. This may also interest you: at the same seminar, I prodded
the factory guy about the continuing reports that code protection can be
defeated by various conbinations of pulsing the progr. pin, applying
strange voltages and sequencing them in particular ways. He maintains
that they watch the same traffic, and have never been able to duplicate
any of the claimed results.

Reg


*Reg Neale=nealespam_OUTspamee.rochester.edu ....standard disclaimer applies...*
*..."Ignorance is a renewable resource."....P.J. O'Rourke............*


'Hs anyone done any code for RC Servos?'
1995\07\02@035546 by Adam Eberbach
flavicon
face
> I'm using a PIC 16C71 to drive  3 hobby RC servos but I'm preety new to this
> assembler. Does anyone know where there is some code to drive servos? I
> know...I'm lazy but the best code is already working code.
> Thanks for your help.

Application note 532 uses a PIC 17c42 for servo control. What you really
want is a copy of the October 1994 (#51) Circuit Cellar INK. There is a
description of a device based on two 16c55s which provide up to 256 servo
channels controlled by a PC serial port. There is also good information
in the Basic Stamp manual, note #4. Basically servos reach the end of their
travel when fed pulses of 1 or 2ms duration - they center when fed 1.5ms
pulses. The RC unit that I looked at sent one 1.5ms pulse every 20ms and
varied in either direction by .4ms.

Adam Eberbach, R&D Engineer, Dataplex Pty. Ltd.

1995\07\02@151823 by David Tait

flavicon
face
Although I haven't seen the article, there was some info in Circuit
Cellar Ink (October 1994, Issue #51) about servos.  You can get the
associated PIC code (for pasm I think) by ftpmail from circellar.com.
An easy way to do this is to use Lou Sortman's WWW interface to the
ftpmail service:

http://tfnet.ils.unc.edu:80/cgi-bin/CCBBS

(Thanks Lou).

David
--
RemoveMEdavid.taitKILLspamspam@spam@man.ac.uk

1995\07\02@153105 by Henry Carl Ott

picon face
>> I'm using a PIC 16C71 to drive  3 hobby RC servos but I'm preety new to this
>> assembler. Does anyone know where there is some code to drive servos? I
>> know...I'm lazy but the best code is already working code.
>> Thanks for your help.
>
>Application note 532 uses a PIC 17c42 for servo control. What you really
>want is a copy of the October 1994 (#51) Circuit Cellar INK. There is a
>description of a device based on two 16c55s which provide up to 256 servo
>channels controlled by a PC serial port. There is also good information
>in the Basic Stamp manual, note #4. Basically servos reach the end of their
>travel when fed pulses of 1 or 2ms duration - they center when fed 1.5ms
>pulses. The RC unit that I looked at sent one 1.5ms pulse every 20ms and
>varied in either direction by .4ms.
>
>Adam Eberbach, R&D Engineer, Dataplex Pty. Ltd.
>
>

The code for the servo project is available from the Circuit Cellar FTPmail
server and is called "servopic.zip".
There is a very handy interface to the server available from WWW
       http://tfnet.ils.unc.edu/cgi-bin/CCBBS

There is also another very helpful reference project for servos by Scott
Edwards called "motion memory" He uses two joysticks to control 4 servos
with local memory for playback. I'm not sure where the source for this
project is. It used to be on the parallax board (in parallax format) but I'm
not sure it's still there. If you can't find it email me and I'll zap it to you.

Hope this helps....
carl

----------------------------------------
Henry Carl Ott      N2RVQ
carlottspamBeGonespam.....interport.net
http://www.interport.net/~carlott/
----------------------------------------

'2's Complement compare for 12 bit data - HELPPPPPP'
1995\07\03@213848 by nino.benci

flavicon
picon face
I am having trouble in writing code for the PIC16C71 to compare two
12bit 'signed' numbers. Once the comparison is done I need to save
the lesser of the 12bit number, for example;

       LOADA   word1       ;get 12 bit signed value into acca
       CMPA    word2       ;compare word1 to word2
       BLE     savewd1     ;if word1 << word2 then save word1
       STORA   word2       ;if word1 >> word2, save word1 -> word2
       RETN
savewd1:
       STORA   rseln       ;save word1 value
       RETN

Excuse the mnemonics chosen. I hope that its clear as to what I need
to do. Any pointers would be appreciated.

Nino Benci
************************************************************************
* Nino Benci - Chief Technical Officer       *                         *
* Monash University - Physics                *     Profound message    *
* Wellington Rd, Clayton. 3168               *      to be inserted     *
* Victoria, Australia.                       *       in the near       *
* TEL - 61 3 9905 3649, FAX - 61 3 9905 3637 *          future         *
* EMAIL - KILLspamnino.bencispam.....sci.monash.edu.au       *                         *
************************************************************************

'looking for components/advices'
1995\07\04@080611 by henri

flavicon
face
Hi there,

I was a few days off, so maybe that response is already to late...
>
> "supply controller"? The entire circuit is working at 3.0-3.3V and draws
> 6mA max. when functioning and about 25uA when in stand by.
In genral you should check MAXIM products for that purpose. They make
alot of stuff for handhelds and so an.
I would recommend you the MAX872. It takes 10uA from the supply and operates
down to 2,7V.

Henri

--
=============> The sanest place is still behind the trigger <===============
[]-------------------------------[]---------------------------------------[]
||         Henri Schultze        || Magdeburg D-39122 Alt-Fermersleben 88 ||
||   spam_OUThenrispamKILLspamfscz-md.boerde.de     ||          The Cracker Company          ||
[]-------------------------------[]---------------------------------------[]
=================> in a world of compromise, some don't <===================


              some dance to remember, some dance to forget

'Hs anyone done any code for RC Servos?'
1995\07\05@003816 by Richard John Farmer

picon face
>
> I'm using a PIC 16C71 to drive  3 hobby RC servos but I'm preety new to this
> assembler. Does anyone know where there is some code to drive servos? I
> know...I'm lazy but the best code is already working code.
> Thanks for your help.
>

Here it is, the code and schematic for a simple servo controller using a
PC joystick and a PIC 16c55. The code can be complied with MPALC or MPASM
and simulated with MPSIM. All are free from Microchip and available on
ftp.ultranet.com /biz/mchip + tons of other code examples. A demo version
of Circad is available mobius, but I can't remember the whole name of the
site. Some help? So you can play with this for free. If your in the Atlanta
area you can even come over and use my burner to make a chip if you bring
a beer.
Now a little on servos. Send one a 1ms pulse every 20-30 ms and it goes
all the way to the left, a 2ms pulse every 20-30ms and it goes all the way
to the right, 1.5 ms and it goes to the middle, simple. This code is simple
it just counts while the joystick pot charges a cap enough to be a 1, saves
the time, flips the pin to an output to discharge it (with a low out), then
flips it back to an input. The timing is all done in spin loops. If you want
to do something else the low time of 20-30ms is not critical. I actually
compensate for the variable high pulse time, but it isn't needed. The 16c5x
chips don't have interrupts and only 2 level deep stack, but hey they're
cheap and fast as hell. Remember, this is just something I cooked up one
afternoon, so it's not pretty but it works. Adjust the 47nF cap to compensate
for the variation in the joystick pots (that's why you have to twirl a
joystick when you start a new game).
My current project is a Xilinx SPROM programer. Anyone up on the *.MCS
file format. I've got the hardware designed, but I still don't have
all the info needed to parse the input file yet. The hardware is fully
software configurable so it'll make a good starting point for other
such project by the net.community. Anybody want a copy of my resume too :).
                                     -Cheers Rick

------------------------- begin code ----------------------------------------

            TITLE "Servo Controller"
            LIST P = 16C55
;            DATE 01SEP94
;            AUTHOR RICK FARMER
;            FILE NAME servo.ASM
;              Clock = 4MHz -> 1 instruction takes 1us
PIC55   equ     1FFH
STATUS  equ     3h              ; F3 Reg is STATUS Reg.
PortA   equ     5h
PortB   equ     6h              ; I/O Port Assignments
PortC   equ     7h
PULSE   equ    0Bh              ; pulse time high
DELAY   equ    0Ch              ; 1 ms count
DOWN    equ    0Dh              ; # ms /4 of low time
CAP     equ    0Eh              ; time to charge cap
LOWPUL  equ    0FH              ; pulse time high for duty cycle
Z       equ     2h
C       equ     0h
;********************************************************************

START   MOVLW  B'000111'        ;Select RTCC, internal clock source
                               ;  & prescale value = 256
       OPTION                  ;Actually load OPTION reg.
       movlw  00h              ;setup port A as output
       tris   PortA
       movwf  PortA            ;clear port A
       movlw  0FFh             ;setup ports B & C as input
       tris   PortB
       tris   PortC

BEGIN   MOVLW  0FFh             ;load 1ms. counter
       MOVWF  DELAY            ;get it into reg
       BSF    PortA,0          ;start pulse output

HIMS    NOP                     ;force loop into 4 cycle duty (even #)
       NOP
       DECFSZ DELAY            ;loop for 1st 1ms. of duty cycle
        GOTO  HIMS

HIGH    NOP                     ;force loop into 4 cycle duty (even #)
       NOP
       NOP
       DECFSZ PULSE            ;loop for high part of duty cycle
        GOTO  HIGH             ;while pulse > 0
       BCF    PortA,0          ;end pulse output

HIPUL   NOP                     ;force loop into 4 cycle duty (even #)
       NOP                     ;duty cycle compensation
       INCFSZ LOWPUL           ;loop for high part of duty cycle
        GOTO  HIPUL            ;while pulse > 0

       MOVLW  03h              ;load # ms * 4 counter
       MOVWF  DOWN             ;get it into reg
       MOVLW  0FAh             ;load 1ms. counter
       MOVWF  DELAY            ;get it into reg

LOW     NOP                     ;force loop into 4 cycle duty (even #)
       NOP
         INLOOP  NOP           ;force loop into 4 cycle duty (even #)
                 NOP
                  DECFSZ DELAY ;loop for low part of duty cycle
                 GOTO INLOOP
       DECFSZ DOWN             ;loop for low part of duty cycle
        GOTO  LOW

       movlw  0ffh             ;make rb1 an input
       tris   PortB            ;to let the cap charge

CHARGE  INCFSZ   CAP,1          ;start timing loop
        GOTO     NEXT          ;check for overflow
       DECF     CAP,1          ;make it FFh
       GOTO     DONE
NEXT    NOP                     ;timing nop
       NOP
       BTFSS  PortB,1          ;check input pin RB1
        GOTO   CHARGE          ;not charged yet

DONE    MOVF   CAP,0            ;but time in W
       MOVWF  PULSE            ;save time in
       MOVWF  LOWPUL

DUTY    NOP                     ;force this part to a constant 2ms
       NOP
       NOP
       NOP
       NOP
       INCFSZ CAP,1            ;loop unit roll over for constant duty cycle
        GOTO   DUTY

       movlw  0fdh             ;make rb1 an output
       tris   PortB            ;drive it low to discharge timing cap
       bcf    PortB,1          ;for a constant time

       GOTO   BEGIN            ;restart loop
       ORG    PIC55
       GOTO   START
       END

-------------------- end code, start uuencoded circad format servo.sch ------


end

Attachment converted: wonderlandone:servo.sch (????/----) (00002105)

'A description of the sony ir format'
1995\07\06@140141 by Edward Cheung

flavicon
face
Here is a document a buddy and I wrote on the sony format.  I hope
this is appropriate here.  There has been some traffic on ir formats
lately.....



Sony SIRCS Protocol Specifications


Scott Coleman and Edward Cheung


  The following is a reference guide to using a microcomputer to
control Sony equipment via the SIRCS protocol.  This can occur either
via an infrared interface, or with a Control-S port. It is being
released in the hope that it will be useful to some of you. Apparently
there is no documentation on the protocol available from Sony (at least,
that's what their publications office said). Thus, the following
information is a synthesis of bits and pieces obtained from many
sources, including the Sony Service Manual for the RMT-124 IR
controller, some net.friends, and by connecting an oscilloscope across
the LED in a Sony IR remote controller and observing the signals sent as
various buttons on the controller were pressed, and writing computer
programs to try various codes. The timings given may not be exactly
those used by the Sony products, but these timings have been used
successfully in controlling a Sony SL-HF900 VCR and a SL-HF400 VCR via
their Control-S ports, and a XBR32 TV and SL-V585HF VCR via infrared, so
we figure they're pretty close. We make no guarantees of accuracy for
any of the information contained in this document, although we'd
appreciate hearing from you if you find any errors contained herein.
Also, the names used here may not correspond to any "official" Sony
names used for the various aspects of the protocol. We have made up some
reasonably descriptive names for various things, since there is no
official reference information (that we are aware of) which would tell
me the official names.


Acknowledgment

  We'd like to acknowledge the assistance of Paul Milazzo
(RemoveMEmilazzoRemoveMEspamEraseMEbbn.com) for providing valuable pointers in the right direction
when Scott first began to research this topic. Without his response to Scott's
usenet post, He might never have figured all this stuff out and gotten Scott's
controller program working.



       Protocol Description


  The wired Control-S protocol used by various Sony video products is
simply a TTL-level baseband version of the signals sent by the Sony
remote controllers (such as the RMT-124). The Control-S command word is
12 or 15 bits long, and consists of a 5 or 8-bit device ID code followed
by a 7-bit button code. The control-S data packet is preceded by a 2.4
millisecond TTL logic-1 pulse (start bit) followed by 0.4 ms of logic-0.
Each 1 bit in the control word is represented by a 1.2 ms logic-1 level
followed by a 0.4 ms logic-0 level, and each 0 bit is 0.8 ms high, 0.4
ms low. The end of the control packet is always a TTL logic-0 level, and
the total length of each packet usually fixed at 45 ms in length. The
bits in each control word are sent in increasing bit position order
(i.e. low order bit first, high order bit last). As an example, let's
look at the command to toggle the power on a SL-HF900. The device ID for
the VCR is 00010, and the button code for the power switch is 0010101.
Thus, the entire control word is 000100010101. To send this command to
the VCR, we first send out a 2.4 ms start bit, and then send the bits in
reverse order (i.e. 101010001000). We then hold the Control-S port to
logic-0 level to make the total packet time (i.e. the time since the
rising edge of the start pulse) equal 45 ms.

  As mentioned above, command words are usually 12 bits long.  However,
some commands are 15 bit long, the device code in that case is 8 bits
long.  For example to command a Sony XBR32 TV to turn off Picture-in-
Picture, you send command 110 (decimal) to device 164 (decimal).  Note
that the 12-bit command can be distinguished from a 15-bit command
becuase it is three bits shorter.  Since both (0 and 1) logic levels
cause the transmission of hi and low transitions, one can tell the
length of the bit stream.



       Interfacing


       To send commands to a VCR equipped with a Control-S port, your
computer will need a TTL-level binary output port. A standard IBM-PC
parallel printer port works well, as does a data acquisition and control
adapter (IBM DACA board). As long as the port can send a TTL-level
signal (0VDC = logic-0, 5VDC = logic-1) you should be OK. Connect the
output line from the port to a 1/8" mini phone plug, with the tip
carrying the TTL signal and the ring grounded. A simple software routine
can then be written to toggle the status of a bit in the output port
corresponding to the output line. Setting the corresponding bit in the
output port will cause the line to go high, clearing the bit will cause
the line to go low. By controlling the pattern and timing of these high
and low signals, the commands may be sent to the VCR.

Instead of a hard wired connection, you can also emulate a pushbutton
remote and flash an Infra Red LED to the appliance(s) to be controlled.
One way is to set up a 40 kHz LED flasher which is gated by the
computerUs TTL output line mentioned above.

The following pseudocode outlines a routine to send a command through a
port setup such as that described above:


begin

/* send the start bit */

raise Ctrl-S line to TTL logic-1

wait 2.4 ms

lower Ctrl-S line to logic-0

wait 0.4 ms


for current_bit = low_order_bit to high_order_bit do begin

   raise Ctrl-S line to logic-1

   if (current_bit is a 1)

       wait 1.2 ms

   else

       wait 0.8 ms

   lower Ctrl-S line to logic-0

   wait 0.4ms

   end


wait a sufficient time to make the total message duration 45 ms (see
paragraph below).

end


We derived our SIRCS information independently from each other.  Because
of that there are slight differences in our findings.  Among the results
gathered by Ed is that the above packet needs to be sent twice (with a
small gap of a few msec. in between) in order for the device to respond;
he also did not observe the need to have the packet take a full 45 msec.
This was not the case with ScottUs findings.  In addition, Ed observed
slightly different timing on the high and low duration of the stream.
The 0.8 msec and 0.4 msec times are both 0.6 msec.
One possible reason for this difference is that Ed used an Infra Red
interface, while Scott used the wired interface.  We suspect that there
is sufficient tolerance built into the receivers to allow a wide range
of timing.




Example Device and Command codes


  The following are some  of the  codes we've  discovered while
experimenting with the protocol. Note that not all of these commands
work with all VCR or TV models.  For example, button code 22 causes the
SL-HF900 to eject a tape, but the SL-HF400 ignores that command. If you
come across any codes which are not listed here, we'd appreciate it if
you'd send us a list of the codes you discover.



Note: All numbers in the following table are base 10.


Device ID Codes

         1   TV

         2   VTR1

         4   VTR2

         6   laserdisk

         7   VTR2

         11  VTR3

         12  Surround Sound Processor

         18  Equalizer

         16  Cassette Deck and Tuner

         17  CD Player

        164  TV digital effects (note 8 bit device code)

  Note that Ed found VTR2 to be Device code 7, while Scott found it to
be 2.  Some devices can be contained in the same box.  For example, the
Surround Sound Processor, Equalizer, and Tuner are in one box, and the
TV digital effects is combined with the TV.


Button Codes for VCR

         000     1 button

         001     2 button

         002     3 button

         003     4 button

         004     5 button

         005     6 button

         006     7 button

         007     8 button

         008     9 button

         009     10 button/0 button

         010     11 button

         011     12 button

         012     13 button

         013     14 button

         020     X 2 play w/sound

         021     power

         022     eject

         023     L-CH/R-CH/Stereo

         024     stop

         025     pause

         026     play

         027     rewind

         028     FF

         029     record

         032     pause engage

         035     X 1/5 play

         040     reverse visual scan

         041     forward visual scan

         042     TV/VTR

         045     VTR from TV

         047     power off

         048     single frame reverse/slow reverse play

         049     single frame advance/slow forward play

         060     aux

         070     counter reset

         078     TV/VTR

         083     index (scan)

         106     edit play

         107     mark


Button Codes for TV

         000     1 button

         001     2 button

         002     3 button

         003     4 button

         004     5 button

         005     6 button

         006     7 button

         007     8 button

         008     9 button

         009     10 button/0 button

         011     Enter

         016     channel up

         017     channel down

         018     volume up

         019     volume down

         020     Mute

         021     Power

         022     Reset TV

         023     Audio Mode:Mono/SAP/Stereo

         024     Picture up

         025     Picture down

         026     Color up

         027     Color down

         030     Brightness up

         031     Brightness down

         032     Hue up

         033     Hue down

         034     Sharpness up

         035     Sharpness down

         036     Select TV tuner

         038     Balance Left

         039     Balance Right

         041     Surround on/off

         042     Aux/Ant

         047     Power off

         048     Time display

         054     Sleep Timer

         058     Channel Display

         059     Channel jump

         064     Select Input Video1

         065     Select Input Video2

         066     Select Input Video3

         074     Noise Reduction on/off

         078     Cable/Broadcast

         079     Notch Filter on/off

         088     PIP channel up

         089     PIP channel down

         091     PIP on

         092     Freeze screen

         094     PIP position

         095     PIP swap

         095     Guide

         097     Video setup

         098     Audio setup

         099     Exit setup

         107     Auto Program

         112     Treble up

         113     Treble down

         114     Bass up

         115     Bass down

         116     + key

         117     - key

         120     Add channel

         121     Delete channel

         125     Trinitone on/off

         127     Displays a red RtestS on the screen


Button Codes for TV digital effects

         110     PIP off


         115     replay last 15 seconds

         116     channel preview

         117     Split screen


If you have any questions, or would like to share some new device/button
codes, we can be reached at the following addresses:


Scott Coleman:  KILLspamtmkkspamspamBeGoneuiuc.edu

Edward Cheung:  oadebcspamspamrobots.gsfc.nasa.gov


+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|          Edward Cheung, Ph.D.         |  The opinions expressed herein    |
|    NASA Goddard Space Flight Center   |    do not necessarily reflect     |
|         Code 714.1, Bldg T11B         |       those of my employers'      |
|          Greenbelt, MD 20771          |                                   |
|   301-286-1269(office) 286-1717(fax)  |  My next book:                    |
| Internet: RemoveMEebc714spamBeGonespamRemoveMErs710.gsfc.nasa.gov  | Statistics, Demos and Other Lies  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

'ANNOUNCE: programs for download'
1995\07\08@215434 by David B. Thomas

flavicon
face
I put some pic programs that I've promised I'd make available on a web
page.  You can get to them with http://www.rt66.com/dthomas/pic/pic.html

There's a guitar tuner, a midi sender and a dtmf tone generator.

David
--
Their address sums up their attitude: One Microsoft Way
       http://www.rt66.com/dthomas/

'Wavelet spectral analysis for guitar tuner?'
1995\07\14@072315 by stephnss

flavicon
face
Has anyone thought of or have code for using wavelets on PIC's? Since
wavelts deal with octaves, or power's of 2 frequency ratio, these would seem
to be a natural choice. For those who don't know, wavelet analysis is
similar to fourier analysis, with the differences being wavelets are based
on a pulse rather than sinusoid, and octave rather than decade frequency
spans. That is, any waveform is expressed as a series of pulses, of varying
pulse dilation (pulse width), translation (phase) and amplitude. The
calculations required go much faster that with the fourier transform,
speeding up signal compression and analysis applications. I'm interested in
this for an inexpensive EEG/Biofeedback monitor, which spectrum is also
based on octaves rather than decades.

Here's an ftp site with info about wavelets:
ceres.math.yale.edu,   ~ftp/pub/wavelets/

The Aprill 92 issue of Dr Dobbs Journal has an article, with example C code
and executables on their BBS.

1995\07\14@090904 by Przemek Klosowski

flavicon
face
stephnss@XNET.COM wrote

  Has anyone thought of or have code for using wavelets on PIC's? Since
  wavelts deal with octaves, or power's of 2 frequency ratio, these would seem
  to be a natural choice. For those who don't know, wavelet analysis is
  similar to fourier analysis, with the differences being wavelets are based
  on a pulse rather than sinusoid, and octave rather than decade frequency

I think you may have misconceptions about fourier vs. wavelet transform.
Fourier transform decomposes signal into its spectral components as normally
understood (a fundamental frequency and its harmonics). Wavelets decompose
signal into different set of primitives, based on 'fractal' shapes.

Therefore, fourier transform is better for periodic signals, while
wavelets work better for non-periodic, noisy signals with sharp
transitions. As far as speed difference, both methods are
fundamentally similar: they both represent your function f(t) as a sum
of transform base functions T(w,t) multiplied by transform coefficients F(w)
                            i                                           i
             _N__                                _N__
             \                                   \
       f(t) = >   F(w) T(w,t),   where   F(w,t) = >   f(t ) T(w,t)
             /___  i    i                 i      /___    i   i
              i=1                                 i=1


(moreless).

                       przemek klosowski (KILLspamprzemekspamBeGonespamrrdstrad.nist.gov)
                       Reactor Division (bldg. 235), E111
                       National Institute of Standards and Technology
                       Gaithersburg, MD 20899,      USA

                       (301) 975 6249

1995\07\14@144506 by Lee F. Holeva

picon face
In article  @spam@stephnssSTOPspamspam@spam@XNET.COM writes:


>Has anyone thought of or have code for using wavelets on PIC's? Since
>wavelts deal with octaves, or power's of 2 frequency ratio, these would seem

Wavelets on a single PIC seems to be a bit much.  However, an implementation
of the Discrete Wavelet Transform could be done on a cascade of PICs.  The
17C44 with its hardware multiply would be a good choice for each of the mirror
filters.  In such a fashion you would then have the PICs forming a pipeline.
This might be less expensive than using DSP chips.

Lee Holeva

1995\07\16@183411 by petter

flavicon
face
>
> I think you may have misconceptions about fourier vs. wavelet transform.
> Fourier transform decomposes signal into its spectral components as normally
> understood (a fundamental frequency and its harmonics). Wavelets decompose
> signal into different set of primitives, based on 'fractal' shapes.
>
> Therefore, fourier transform is better for periodic signals, while
> wavelets work better for non-periodic, noisy signals with sharp
> transitions.

Sorry, but what you mean is the fourier series. The fourier
transform can also be done continuously for non-periodic signals.

Erwin

--------------------------------------------------------------
Erwin Petter
Fraunhofer Institute for biomedical Engineering

Ensheimerstr 48                   //////
66386 St.Ingbert                 /_~~~_\
Germany                         q o | o p
tel. +49 6894 980158            |  ===  |
                                 \     /
-------------------------------ooOo----oOoo--------------------------

1995\07\16@211319 by Paul Picot

flavicon
face
On Sun, 16 Jul 1995, Erwin Petter wrote:

> > Therefore, fourier transform is better for periodic signals, while
> > wavelets work better for non-periodic, noisy signals with sharp
> > transitions.
>
> Sorry, but what you mean is the fourier series. The fourier
> transform can also be done continuously for non-periodic signals.
>
> Erwin

The Fourier transform *implicitly* assumes a periodic signal.  You
explicitly specify the period when you choose the length of your sample
set.  In other words, the sample window or the number of samples you use
(in a digital transform) on which you perform the transform *is* the period
(and the *only* period) of your signal, as far as the transform is
concerned.

Sure, you can perform a Fourier transform on non-periodic signals.  Just
be sure to realise that you are *forcing* a periodicity on it.

Note that this periodicity becomes the sampling density in the transform
space (usually "frequency bins" in the common usage of the transform).


Paul Picot             ppicotspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneirus.rri.uwo.ca
Imaging Research Labs, Robarts Research Institute. London, Ontario, Canada
Affiliated with University Hospital and the University of Western Ontario

1995\07\17@110507 by Przemek Klosowski

flavicon
face
Erwin is right: the Fourier TRANSFORM does not assume periodicity,
because it calculates the fourier 'coefficients' for every frequency
on the real axis (i.e. a transform of a function f(t) is another
function F(omega): for instance the fourier transform of a
sin(omega_zero*t) is a delta function with peak at 'omega_zero'; in a
complementary way a transform of an impulse has constant power density
for all frequencies). Now Fourier SERIES do assume a period (i.e. a
fundamental frequency).

Having said that, even Fourier transform 'likes' the periodic functions,
in the sense that the transforms of them have nicer properties than
transforms of arbitrary f(t).

1995\07\17@134631 by IP 90)

flavicon
picon face
> Erwin is right: the Fourier TRANSFORM does not assume periodicity,
> because it calculates the fourier 'coefficients' for every frequency
> on the real axis.

Sure?

Well, the DISCRETE fourier transform DOES assume periodicity, because
with a finite number of base vectors which are all periodic (sin and cos),
all you can get is a periodic function.

In programming, you always deal with the discrete FT (unless you do
computer algebra ;-), not the continuous one with the integral.

What is the moral of this? If you want to to use the discrete fourier
transform on a finite signal, then you have to make this finite
signal artificially periodic. The FT always consideres the data block
you give it as a periodic signal and you you are not carefull, you will
see the probably large edge between the last and the first sample
in your spectrum -> you get a pretty weird spectrum.

What can you do against this?

Just multiply your data block with a 'windowing function',
which makes your data periodic (i.e.  last sample = first sample = 0)
without doing too much harm to the spectrum. A number of good windowing
functions are described in every signal processing textbook. They are
called Welch, Hann, Hamming, Barlet, etc. window functions. With them, you
get really good spectral estimation using the DFT.

All this is old well-established standard technology explained in detail
in every book about digital signal processing. There's also a nice
easy to understand chapter 13.4 in "Numerical Recipes in C"
by W. H. Press et. al., ISBN 0-521-43108-5 about spectral estimation
using the FFT.

Markus

--
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -- University of Erlangen,
Internet Mail: <spamBeGonemskuhnspamcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> - Germany
WWW Home: <http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/user/mskuhn>

'Any plans for a 3.3V 17Cxx?'
1995\07\21@172855 by Brian Read

flavicon
face
The new 17C43 and 17C44 are listed as 2.5 - 6.0 volts

Brian

'[forwarded] ADVERTISEMENT for cheap pc-based paral'
1995\07\30@040407 by jory bell

face
flavicon
face
I recently posted som info on an apparently new supplier of pic programmers
(which were fairly cheap). I mentioned that the info the guy sent did not
include a lot o detail in terms of address, etc. One of the piclist members
forwarded this info gleaned from the HAM radio data, since the guy listed
his call. Here it is.

-jory


{Quote hidden}

1995\07\31@215347 by Tom Kellett

flavicon
picon face
On 30 Jul 95 at 1:03,  about Re: [forwarded] ADVERTISEMENT for c, jory bell
wrote:

> I recently posted som info on an apparently new supplier of pic programmers
> (which were fairly cheap). I mentioned that the info the guy sent did not
> include a lot o detail in terms of address, etc. One of the piclist members
> forwarded this info gleaned from the HAM radio data, since the guy listed
> his call. Here it is.
>
> >
> >     [deleted]
> >
> >JB>I also note that they don't list a snail-mail address or phone, so you
> >JB>takes your chances (a review from anyone who uses them wwith relevant
> >JB>experiences might be useful to some).

< Deleted >

Here's the contact details;
CHRIS B SAKKAS
ITU Technologies
3477 Westport Ct.
Cincinnati, OH  45248-3026

e-mail spam_OUTITUTecSTOPspamspamaol.com
tel: (513) 574-7523 from 9AM to 5PM EDT Monday through Friday.

Has anyone had "hands-on" with one of these beasties yet?

Tom


'[forwarded] ADVERTISEMENT for cheap pc-based paral'
1995\08\01@132823 by Rolan
flavicon
face
On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Tom Kellett wrote:

Someone was looking into buying those cheap PIC programmers.
bla bla bla bla... stuff deleted...

{Quote hidden}

I bought one about 2 weeks ago. It's pretty much the same serial
programming circuit that posted around on the net.
Personally, I liked the kit. It was easy to assemble and came with
a Microchip 16c84 data book. I fitted my kit with a ZIF socket to
save wear on the sockets. Overall, for $29 it's pretty nice.

-()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()-
Rolan Yang            http://hertz.njit.edu/~rxy5310   Electrical Engineer
TakeThisOuTrxy5310spamspamRemoveMEhertz.njit.edu                             KILLspamkyuriusspamspamspam_OUTtsb.weschke.com
VR,ROBOTICS,FENCING,HACKING,INDUSTRIAL MUSIC,ART,EXPLOSIVES,INLINE SKATING
                   THESE ARE A FEW OF MY FAVORITE THINGS.
-()---()---()---()---()---()-----()-()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()-
4 out of 10 people are annoyed by ^ this.

'Searching for "fabtohex"'
1995\08\03@160604 by slider00

flavicon
face
I am searching for a program named
"fabtohex".

Till now, I have succedeed in finding
"hextofab" but it's not really what
I am searching for.

I have heard say that this program could
come from microchip technologies.

If one of you has got it or knows a
BBS/Internet Site where I could find it,
could you please tell it to me by
E-Mail.
If possible, I would be rather
interested by a UUEncoded version of
it sent to me by e-mail.

Thanks.

My address: slider00RemoveMEspammcom.mcom.fr

o o
I
---

'Simulator for 16C64?'
1995\08\06@211024 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Paul Christenson [N3EOP] <EraseMEPJC130STOPspamspamRemoveMEPSUVM.PSU.EDU> wrote:

>I'm in the middle of a project using a 16C64.  However, I'm finding that
>the Parallax simulator isn't able to properly handle the '64; in
>particular, the additional I/O pins.
>
>Is there an up-to-date PIC simulator that can properly handle the '64?

Paul:

Of course.

Microchip's own MPSIM handles every one of the PIC microcontrollers.  The
user interface is pretty awkward (at present, anyway), but the simulation
is completely accurate.

One thing you may want to look out for:  MPSIM expects to find its symbol
tables in a ".COD" file; if you're assembling your code with anything
other than MPASM (but then, why would you?), the simulator won't be able
to use your symbols.

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - spam_OUTfastfwdRemoveMEspamEraseMEix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

1995\08\09@135511 by jhobbs

flavicon
face
At 06:10 PM 8/6/95 EDT, you wrote:
>I'm in the middle of a project using a 16C64.  However, I'm finding that
>the Parallax simulator isn't able to properly handle the '64; in
>particular, the additional I/O pins.
>
>Is there an up-to-date PIC simulator that can properly handle the '64?
>
PSIM only has support for the 5x, 71 and 84 parts only.  We have chosen not
to continue simulation support with the newer/other parts.  They are
becoming more complex and simulation is not always feasible, ICE (emulation)
is the way to go.


   _/_/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/_/   _/_/_/_/_/   _/_/_/_/_/   Take care -Jim Hobbs
      _/      _/           _/           _/      _/
     _/      _/_/_/_/_/   _/_/_/_/_/   _/_/_/_/_/     Solid....wood!
    _/      _/           _/           _/
_/_/_/      _/_/_/_/_/   _/_/_/_/_/   _/  Getting off never felt sooo good.

'PIC Lib for Protel Schematic?'
1995\08\10@085802 by Antti Lukats

flavicon
face
>Does Anyone have libraries for Protel Schematic which include the PIC
>range of chips, and SEEPROM's?

yes we have, I will upload them to our site in 24 hrs
Protel for Windows 1.0 ones - I hope they are compatible
with newer versions of Protel

antti

----------------------------------------------------------
-- Antti Lukats                          Silicon Studio --
-- TakeThisOuTsisRemoveMEspam@spam@rasi.lr.ttu.ee                    PO Box 3500    --
-- ftp://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/pub/sis          Tallinn EE0001 --
-- http://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/~sis            Estonia        --
----------------------------------------------------------

'IR formats'
1995\08\10@161340 by Jeff Hunsinger

flavicon
face
Check out hemul.nada.kth.se under /home/d89-bga/hp/files/remote/rem32bg/remote.
There's a large number of formats covered.

Jeff

'New Web and FTP sites for PIC'
1995\08\18@102142 by Chris Sakkas

flavicon
face
We've recently added a PIC page to our web site and a PIC directory to our
ftp site.

Our web address is:
http://www.iglou.com/ITU

and our anonymous ftp address is:
ftp://iglou.com/members/ITU

We also have some files on PC-interfacing and general electronics-related
material available via ftp.  The support directory will always contain the
latest versions of our PIC programmer software.

We welcome any user contributed programs to our site.  If you would like
to share your PIC-related code or utilities with the Internet community,
just upload them into our incoming directory and send me an e-mail message
with a description of your upload.

We would appreciate any comments and suggestions, especially additions or
corrections to links on our page.  Please keep in mind that we have just
added this page and will continue to make updates!

Thanks!

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris B. Sakkas (EraseMEcsakkasRemoveMEspamiglou.com)  http://www.iglou.com/ITU
ITU Technologies (spamITUTec.....spamspamaol.com)    ftp://iglou.com/members/ITU
Complete PIC programming packages starting at only $29!
See our web page or e-mail us today for more info!

'picstart hardware fix for eedata (?)'
1995\08\19@115232 by john r reid

flavicon
face
I was dissapointed to find that the picstart programmer was incapable of
programming the data memory on a 16c84. (or at least so I'm told by my
microchip rep.)

As I have not yet seen a serial mode programmer designed for the mac I
had an Idea that may work in hardware.

Looking at the programming spec in the databook, all that appears to be
different between programming "programme". and data memory is the need
to set RB0 to 1 during the control word.
I assume that if that is done the picstart and mps16b software will
think it is programming prog memory while it is actually reading/writing
from the data memory. I'm not quite sure what happens when it tries to
write/read addresses above 40h but lets not worry about that just yet.

I believe that a simple circuit;

RB7 ->[inverted] ->
                   [AND]-> [DIODE]-> RB0
RB2 ->[XOR]------->
RB3 ->[   ]

would give the logic required, that is RBO forced to one when a "load
data" or "read data" instruction is sent to the chip. At all other times
I assume the diode woold look like a high impedence to 0, and not effect
the programmer to chip traffic.

Before I try this and blow everything up, I invite comments.

a) good idea, might work.
b) good idea, will not work.
c) why bother when there is a much better way of doing it.(remember this
needs to work on a mac, and I do not want to buy a more expensive
programmer!)
All feedback in these catagories appreciated.
(As I have not tried it out, please do not destroy your own picstarts.)


john

'Information as per your request.'
1995\08\20@195437 by SORGI

flavicon
face
.edu,
             mde-lspam_OUTspam@spam@mizzou1.missouri.edu, .....kidlit-lspamspam.....bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu,
             nihtoc-lKILLspamspamEraseMElist.nih.gov, EraseMEalcts@spam@spam@spam@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU,
             @spam@ill-lspamspamKILLspamuvmvm.uvm.edu, spamBeGonemacscrptRemoveMEspamEraseMEcaligari.Dartmouth.EDU,
             fapesp-l%RemoveMEbruspvm.bitnetKILLspamspamRemoveMElistserv.net, TakeThisOuTcruise-lspamunlvm.unl.edu,
             pgssnews%spamBeGonevm1.mcgill.canihongoKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu,
             EraseMEdirect-l.....spamKILLspamuafsysb.uark.edu, spamexlibrisspamrutvm1.rutgers.edu,
             isworldSTOPspamspamirlearn.ucd.ie, sbpchoje%brlncc.bitnetSTOPspamspamKILLspamlistserv.net,
             @spam@pagemakr.....spamspamindycms.iupui.edu, spamclayart.....spam.....ukcc.uky.edu,
             museum-l.....spamunmvma.unm.edu, KILLspamberita-lspam_OUTspamvmd.cso.uiuc.edu,
             spam_OUTicen-lspamTakeThisOuTiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, .....arch-l.....spamRemoveMEtamvm1.tamu.edu,
             spam_OUTh-amstdyTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEmsu.edu, EraseMEpakistanspamBeGonespamKILLspamasuvm.inre.asu.edu,
             RemoveMElastwedsspamBeGonespamspamlistserv.clark.net, @spam@crtnetspamspampsuvm.psu.edu,
             TakeThisOuThelp-netKILLspamspam@spam@vm.temple.edu, .....pu-newsRemoveMEspamvm.cc.purdue.edu,
             mdk-12%KILLspamumdd.bitnetspamTakeThisOuTlistserv.net, TakeThisOuTansax-lspamspam_OUTwvnvm.wvnet.edu,
             RemoveMEair-lspamspamSTOPspamvtvm1.cc.vt.edu, .....comics-lEraseMEspamunlvm.unl.edu,
             spamBeGonecommcollspamRemoveMEukcc.uky.edu, .....enews-outEraseMEspammail.eworld.com,
             spampsrt-lspam_OUTspam@spam@mizzou1.missouri.edu, spamactiv-l@spam@spamSTOPspammizzou1.missouri.edu,
             ufrjncen%spamBeGoneufrj.bitnetspamBeGonespam@spam@listserv.net, RemoveMEjobplaceRemoveMEspamRemoveMEnews.jobweb.org,
             car-engKILLspamspamspamearn.cvut.cz, spam_OUTteslca-l@spam@spamcunyvm.cuny.edu,
             TakeThisOuTnetmonthspam_OUTspamvm.marist.edu, KILLspammediev-l.....spamTakeThisOuTukanvm.cc.ukans.edu,
             dairy-l%TakeThisOuTumdd.bitnetEraseMEspamRemoveMElistserv.net, spam_OUTh-womenRemoveMEspam.....UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU,
             spamoracle-lKILLspamspamKILLspamccvm.sunysb.edu, spampsygrd-jspam_OUTspamacadvm1.uottawa.ca,
             STOPspambestwebspam_OUTspamspamBeGonevm.ege.edu.tr, spam_OUTwx-talkspamspamBeGonevmd.cso.uiuc.edu,
             EraseMEmarmamspamKILLspamuvvm.uvic.ca, EraseMEchminf-lRemoveMEspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
             .....netscapespamspam_OUTirlearn.ucd.ie, @spam@aeraEraseMEspamspamasuvm.inre.asu.edu,
             indiaTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamcunyvm.cuny.edu, RemoveMEnative-lTakeThisOuTspamtamvm1.tamu.edu, @spam@cwis-lSTOPspamspammsu.edu,
             TakeThisOuTnatosciTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEcc1.kuleuven.ac.be, spam_OUTbgrass-lspamspam.....ukcc.uky.edu,
             ir-l.....spam@spam@uccvma.ucop.edu, spamBeGonefish-ecologyspamspam_OUTsearn.sunet.se,
             EraseMEkidcafe.....spamvm1.nodak.edu, spamsonic-verseKILLspamspam@spam@vm.marist.edu,
             pns-lspamspamTakeThisOuTpsuvm.psu.edu, RemoveMEquiltnetRemoveMEspamukcc.uky.edu,
             TakeThisOuTphilosop@spam@spam@spam@vm1.yorku.ca, TakeThisOuTgardensspamspamukcc.uky.edu,
             KILLspamchemed-lKILLspamspamspamBeGoneuwf.cc.uwf.edu, spamBeGoneseasia-lKILLspamspammsu.edu,
             buslib-l%idbsu.bitnet@spam@spamKILLspamlistserv.net, EraseMEqualrs-lRemoveMEspam@spam@uga.cc.uga.edu,
             RemoveMEwinhlp-lspamspamEraseMEadmin.humberc.on.ca, STOPspamhum-molgen.....spamnic.surfnet.nl,
             spamBeGoneeducational-researchRemoveMEspamRemoveMEasuvm.inre.asu.edu, @spam@ankietaspamBeGonespamplearn.edu.pl,
             spam_OUTvolcanospamspamasuvm.inre.asu.edu, spamanthro-lspamspamspamubvm.cc.buffalo.edu,
             spamBeGonedevel-lKILLspamspamKILLspamamerican.edu,
             e-poetry%TakeThisOuTubvm.cc.buffalo.eduwindowsspamspamvm1.mcgill.ca,>              spamBeGonestat-lspamvm1.mcgill.ca, EraseMEarlis-lEraseMEspamukcc.uky.edu,
             spamBeGoneinfo-macspam_OUTspam.....vmd.cso.uiuc.edu, spamtheoryntspamvm1.nodak.edu,
             RemoveMEblues-lKILLspamspamKILLspambrownvm.brown.edu, newnir-l%EraseMEitocsivm.bitnetspamBeGonespamspamlistserv.net,
             KILLspambbshopspamadmin.humberc.on.ca, asis-lspam_OUTspamspamvmd.cso.uiuc.edu,
             nurseresspamspam@spam@kentvm.kent.edu, spamBeGonescupnews.....spamcmsa.berkeley.edu,
             .....vocnet@spam@spamcmsa.berkeley.edu, @spam@primaryspamumrvmb.umr.edu,
             teluguRemoveMEspamvm1.nodak.edu, spamflyfishspamukcc.uky.edu, sas-lspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTuga.cc.uga.edu,
             spam_OUTtec-ten@spam@spamRemoveMEsjuvm.stjohns.edu, spamtoolb-lspamspamlistserv.arizona.edu,
             @spam@victoriaspam_OUTspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, .....suearn-lspam.....ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu,
             spamreachKILLspamspamucsbvm.ucsb.edu, RemoveMEcumrec-lRemoveMEspamvm1.nodak.edu,
             KILLspamheproc-l.....spamKILLspamamerican.edu, medtextlspam_OUTspamspam_OUTvmd.cso.uiuc.edu,
             KILLspamconslinkspam@spam@sivm.si.edu, @spam@h-teachRemoveMEspammsu.edu,
             humanist@spam@spamEraseMEbrownvm.brown.edu, spam_OUTacsoft-lspam_OUTspamRemoveMEwuvmd.wustl.edu,
             RemoveMEioob-lspam.....uga.cc.uga.edu, spamhytel-l@spam@spamkentvm.kent.edu,
             flteachTakeThisOuTspamubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, .....h-rhetorspamTakeThisOuTUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU,
             EraseMEmitbayspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu, ipct-lEraseMEspamguvm.ccf.georgetown.edu,
             EraseMEmedia-lspamspamBeGonebingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu, TakeThisOuTchildlitspamTakeThisOuTrutvm1.rutgers.edu,
             psycgradspamspam_OUTacadvm1.uottawa.ca, spammentor-l@spam@spamvm.its.rpi.edu,
             spam_OUTchristiaTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamasuvm.inre.asu.edu, RemoveMEnsc94-l@spam@spamspamgumncc.earn.net,
             RemoveMEk12adminRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTlistserv.syr.edu, e-clipsTakeThisOuTspam@spam@sjuvm.stjohns.edu,
             jwaTakeThisOuTspamspamBeGoneubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, spamcybsys-lTakeThisOuTspambingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu,
             .....sts-lspamspamBeGoneutkvm1.utk.edu, .....access-lTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEeva.dc.LSOFT.COM,
             RemoveMEvpiej-lspamspamKILLspamvtvm1.cc.vt.edu, STOPspammtg-lEraseMEspamoracle.wizards.com,
             scit-bibspamBeGonespamqucdn.queensu.ca, birdchat@spam@spamlistserv.arizona.edu,
             spam_OUTpoli-scispamspamrutvm1.rutgers.edu,
             shaksper%utoronto.bitnetspam_OUTspamRemoveMElistserv.net,
             usuvm-l%spambrlncc.bitnetspamBeGonespamlistserv.net, spamgames-lRemoveMEspambrownvm.brown.edu,
             KILLspamtaxacomspam_OUTspamspam_OUTcmsa.berkeley.edu, h-asiaspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmsu.edu, spamBeGonelabmgrspamspamspamBeGoneukcc.uky.edu,
             @spam@balt-lspamspamspam_OUTubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, KILLspamcompmedspamKILLspamwuvmd.wustl.edu,
             KILLspamint-lawspamspamspamvm1.spcs.umn.edu, gaelic-lKILLspamspam.....irlearn.ucd.ie,
             newedu-lspamBeGonespamuhccvm.uhcc.hawaii.edu, pnews-lspamspam_OUTsjuvm.stjohns.edu,
             .....maps-lRemoveMEspamKILLspamuga.cc.uga.edu, TakeThisOuTmla-lKILLspamspam.....iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
             autism%sjuvm.stjohns.eduh-filmspam_OUTspamspamBeGonemsu.edu,
             library.....spam@spam@miamiu.acs.muohio.edu, @spam@japanspamspampucc.princeton.edu,
             spam_OUTcethspamBeGonespamspamBeGonepucc.princeton.edu, quarkxprRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
             TakeThisOuTaera-cKILLspamspamasuvm.inre.asu.edu, RemoveMEjournetTakeThisOuTspamspamqucdn.queensu.ca,
             .....macav-l@spam@spamspamBeGoneuafsysb.uark.edu, STOPspamsex-lTakeThisOuTspamtamvm1.tamu.edu,
             TakeThisOuTimagelib@spam@spamlistserv.arizona.edu, EraseMEbibsoftEraseMEspamindycms.iupui.edu,
             c18-lTakeThisOuTspamKILLspampsuvm.psu.edu, birdeastspamBeGonespamspamlistserv.arizona.edu,
             RemoveMEassess.....spamukcc.uky.edu, cdromlan%idbsu.bitnet.....spam.....listserv.net,
             spam_OUTh-rhetorEraseMEspam.....msu.edu, EraseME4ad-lKILLspamspamspamamerican.edu, RemoveMEnotis-lSTOPspamspamEraseMEUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU,
             spam_OUTcfs-lspamspamRemoveMElist.nih.gov, c+spamBeGonehealthEraseMEspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
             TakeThisOuTdis-l.....spamTakeThisOuTiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, mletherspamBeGonespamvm1.mcgill.ca,
             ire-l@spam@spammizzou1.missouri.edu, spamccnet-lSTOPspamspamRemoveMEuga.cc.uga.edu,
             KILLspamitd-jnlspamspam_OUTsjuvm.stjohns.edu, @spam@vbdata-lEraseMEspamTakeThisOuTtamvm1.tamu.edu,
             circplus%RemoveMEidbsu.bitnetTakeThisOuTspamlistserv.net, RemoveMElita-lspamspamUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU,
             KILLspampubpol-lspamspamspam_OUTvm1.spcs.umn.edu, spamsag-l.....spamTakeThisOuTuafsysb.uark.edu,
             aaashran@spam@spamspam_OUTgwuvm.gwu.edu, STOPspamtravel-lspamvm.ege.edu.tr,
             EraseMEsocworkspam_OUTspamuafsysb.uark.edu, friendsKILLspamspamspamcaligari.Dartmouth.EDU,
             TakeThisOuTfcr-intKILLspamspamaliga.cesca.es, spammac-l-request.....spam@spam@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu,
             spam_OUTqstudy-lspamspamubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, EraseMEpsyche-dspamBeGonespamrfmh.org, EraseMEh-diplospam_OUTspamspammsu.edu,
             holocausspam_OUTspamUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU, spam_OUTawareTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamcc1.kuleuven.ac.be,
             TakeThisOuTh-urbanspamUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU, spamomri-lspam_OUTspamearn.cvut.cz,
             EraseMEibmtcp-lspamspampucc.princeton.edu, KILLspamslart-lEraseMEspamspam_OUTcunyvm.cuny.edu,
             TakeThisOuTjewishgenspam_OUTspamspammail.eworld.com, @spam@athtrn-lTakeThisOuTspamiubvm.ucs.india
To:           Multiple recipients of list PICLIST <STOPspamPICLISTspamspammitvma.mit.edu>

                    Secured Overseas Regulatory Gaming Investments
                                                     SORGI

The Secured Overseas Regulatory Gaming Investments is a marketing group.
We have been martketing casinos for the past 10 years. Because, of the
expansion of gambling in over 21 different countries in various juristictions,
we are now able to offer you a ground floor opportunity in this regulatory
group.

Various styles of gambling are allowed by law depending on the country and
jusitiction. Casinos with only slot machines to complete Vegas or
Monte Carlo style gambling.

We have sucessfully found investement for several casinos in various countries.
Experience indicates the avarage return will be a minium of $600 US per month.

This is your opportunity to be a part of a powerful group!

ACT NOW! Send your money order for $100 US dollars to SORGI.
You will recieve your Registration Number for identifiaction and correspondence.

Secured Overseas Regulatory Gaming Investments is looking for a limited
number of members in this exclusive group. Once the required number of
members is achieved - this offer will be closed.


================================================
ACT NOW - TO JOIN THE GROUP!!
Complete the form and retun it with your $100 investment to the address below.

[   ]          I have enclosed my Investment for $100 US dollars
              (money order made payable to SORGI)
               Please send me my Registration Number in the group for
               identifcation & further correspondence.

Name:   ___________________________________________________________________

Address:   ___________________________________________________________________

City / Town:__________________________________________________________________

State/Province: _______________________________________________________________

ZIP/Postal:  __________________________________________________________________

Country:_____________________________________________________________________

E-Mail:_____________________________________________________________________

       I understand, that casinos are not developed in a day I can expect
       my first payment no sooner than 3 months (1 fiscal quarter) from
       the time of enrollment.


Signature:      ________________________________________________________________
__

================================================
Make money orders payable to SORGI and
Mail to:
       SORGI
       Suite 13, 2255 Centre Street North
       Calgary, Alberta
       Canada
       T2E 2T4

1995\08\21@054325 by Markus Imhof

flavicon
face
--========================_19125980==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FUCK OFF

I DID NOT REQUEST INFORMATION - YOUR SYSAD, NET-ABUSE AND BLACKLIST WILL BE
INFORMED.

Info about how to reasonably advertise on usenet appended.







{Quote hidden}

--========================_19125980==_
Content-Type: text/plain; name="spam_answer"; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="spam_answer"

Path:
rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.rz.uni-ulm.de!zib-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news
.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.res
ton.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!deshaw.com!do-not-use-path-to-reply
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 09:00:22 GMT
Supersedes: <spamD3wt9F.3IJKILLspamspamdeshaw.com>
Expires: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 09:00:22 GMT
Message-ID: <D4pD0M.EAxRemoveMEspamdeshaw.com>
From: netannounceEraseMEspam@spam@deshaw.com (Mark Moraes)
Subject: A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community
Newsgroups: news.announce.newusers,news.answers
Followup-To: news.newusers.questions
Approved: STOPspamnetannounceTakeThisOuTspam.....deshaw.com (Mark Moraes)
Lines: 416
Xref: rz.uni-karlsruhe.de news.announce.newusers:1049
news.answers:38725

Archive-name: usenet/primer/part1
Original-author: spam_OUTchuqspam_OUTspamspamapple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Comment: enhanced & edited until 5/93 by TakeThisOuTspafTakeThisOuTspamcs.purdue.edu (Gene
Spafford)
Last-change: 29 Jan 1995 by EraseMEnetannounce@spam@spamdeshaw.com (Mark Moraes)
Changes-posted-to: news.misc,news.answers


             A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community
                            Chuq Von Rospach



 *** This message describes the Usenet culture and customs that have
 developed over time.  Other documents in this newsgroup describe what
 Usenet is and manuals or on-line help on your system should provide
 detailed technical documentation.  All new users should read this
 message to acclimate themselves to Usenet. (Old users could read it,
 too, to refresh their memories.)  ***

 It is the people participating in Usenet that make it worth the
effort
 to read and maintain; for Usenet to function properly those people
must
 be able to interact in productive ways.  This document is intended as
a
 guide to using the net in ways that will be pleasant and productive
for
 everyone.

 This document is not intended to teach you how to use Usenet.
 Instead, it is a guide to using it politely, effectively and
 efficiently.  Communication by computer is new to almost everybody,
 and there are certain aspects that can make it a frustrating
 experience until you get used to them.  This document should help
 you avoid the worst traps.

 The easiest way to learn how to use Usenet is to watch how others
 use it.  Start reading the news and try to figure out what people
 are doing and why.  After a couple of weeks you will start
 understanding why certain things are done and what things shouldn't
 be done.  There are documents available describing the technical
 details of how to use the software.  These are different depending
 on which programs you use to access the news.  You can get copies of
 these from your system administrator.  If you do not know who that
 person is, they can be contacted on most systems by mailing to
 account "news", "usenet" or "postmaster".


          Never Forget that the Person on the Other Side is Human.

 Because your interaction with the network is through a computer it is
easy
 to forget that there are people "out there." Situations arise where
 emotions erupt into a verbal free-for-all that can lead to hurt
feelings.

 Please remember that people all over the world are reading your
words.  Do
 not attack people if you cannot persuade them with your presentation
of
 the facts.  Screaming, cursing, and abusing others only serves to
make
 people think less of you and less willing to help you when you need
it.

 If you are upset at something or someone, wait until you have had a
 chance to calm down and think about it.  A cup of (decaf!) coffee or
 a good night's sleep works wonders on your perspective.  Hasty words
 create more problems than they solve.  Try not to say anything to
 others you would not say to them in person in a room full of people.

           Don't Blame System Admins for their Users' Behavior.

 Sometimes, you may find it necessary to write to a system
administrator
 about something concerning his or her site.  Maybe it is a case of
the
 software not working, or a control message escaped, or maybe one of
the
 users at that site has done something you feel requires comment.  No
matter
 how steamed you may be, be polite to the sysadmin -- he or she may
not have
 any idea of what you are going to say, and may not have any part in
the
 incidents involved.  By being civil and temperate, you are more
likely to
 obtain their courteous attention and assistance.

     Never assume that a person is speaking for their organization.

 Many people who post to Usenet do so from machines at their office or
 school.  Despite that, never assume that the person is speaking for
the
 organization that they are posting their articles from (unless the
 person explicitly says so).  Some people put explicit disclaimers to
 this effect in their messages, but this is a good general rule.  If
you
 find an article offensive, consider taking it up with the person
 directly, or ignoring it.  Learn about "kill files" in your
newsreader,
 and other techniques for ignoring people whose postings you find
 offensive.

                   Be Careful What You Say About Others.

 Please remember -- you read netnews; so do as many as 3,000,000 other
 people.  This group quite possibly includes your boss, your friend's
 boss, your girl friend's brother's best friend and one of your
 father's beer buddies.  Information posted on the net can come back
 to haunt you or the person you are talking about.

 Think twice before you post personal information about yourself or
 others.  This applies especially strongly to groups like soc.singles
 and alt.sex but even postings in groups like talk.politics.misc have
 included information about the personal life of third parties that
 could get them into serious trouble if it got into the wrong hands.

                                 Be Brief.

 Never say in ten words what you can say in fewer.  Say it succinctly
and
 it will have a greater impact.  Remember that the longer you make
your
 article, the fewer people will bother to read it.

            Your Postings Reflect Upon You -- Be Proud of Them.

 Most people on Usenet will know you only by what you say and how well
you
 say it.  They may someday be your co-workers or friends.  Take some
time
 to make sure each posting is something that will not embarrass you
later.
 Minimize your spelling errors and make sure that the article is easy
to
 read and understand.  Writing is an art and to do it well requires
 practice.  Since much of how people judge you on the net is based on
your
 writing, such time is well spent.

                          Use Descriptive Titles.

 The subject line of an article is there to enable a person with a
limited
 amount of time to decide whether or not to read your article.  Tell
people
 what the article is about before they read it.  A title like "Car for
 Sale" to rec.autos does not help as much as "66 MG Midget for sale:
 Beaverton OR." Don't expect people to read your article to find out
what
 it is about because many of them won't bother.  Some sites truncate
the
 length of the subject line to 40 characters so keep your subjects
short
 and to the point.

                        Think About Your Audience.

 When you post an article, think about the people you are trying to
 reach.  Asking UNIX(*) questions on rec.autos will not reach as many
 of the people you want to reach as if you asked them on
 comp.unix.questions or comp.unix.internals.  Try to get the most
 appropriate audience for your message, not the widest.

 It is considered bad form to post both to misc.misc, soc.net-people,
 or misc.wanted and to some other newsgroup.  If it belongs in that
 other newsgroup, it does not belong in misc.misc, soc.net-people,
 or misc.wanted.

 If your message is of interest to a limited geographic area
(apartments,
 car sales, meetings, concerts, etc...), restrict the distribution of
the
 message to your local area.  Some areas have special newsgroups with
 geographical limitations, and the recent versions of the news
software
 allow you to limit the distribution of material sent to world-wide
 newsgroups.  Check with your system administrator to see what
newsgroups
 are available and how to use them.

 If you want to try a test of something, do not use a world-wide
newsgroup!
 Messages in misc.misc that say "This is a test" are likely to cause
 large numbers of caustic messages to flow into your mailbox.  There
are
 newsgroups that are local to your computer or area that should be
used.
 Your system administrator can tell you what they are.

 Be familiar with the group you are posting to before you post!  You
 shouldn't post to groups you do not read, or post to groups you've
 only read a few articles from -- you may not be familiar with the
on-going
 conventions and themes of the group.  One normally does not join
 a conversation by just walking up and talking.  Instead, you listen
 first and then join in if you have something pertinent to contribute.

                    Be Careful with Humor and Sarcasm.

 Without the voice inflections and body language of personal
 communications, it is easy for a remark meant to be funny to be
 misinterpreted.  Subtle humor tends to get lost, so take steps to
make
 sure that people realize you are trying to be funny.  The net has
 developed a symbol called the smiley face.  It looks like ":-)" and
points
 out sections of articles with humorous intent.  No matter how broad
the
 humor or satire, it is safer to remind people that you are being
funny.

 But also be aware that quite frequently satire is posted without any
 explicit indications.  If an article outrages you strongly, you
 should ask yourself if it just may have been unmarked satire.
 Several self-proclaimed connoisseurs refuse to use smiley faces, so
 take heed or you may make a temporary fool of yourself.

                         Only Post a Message Once.

 Avoid posting messages to more than one newsgroup unless you are sure
 it is appropriate.  If you do post to multiple newsgroups, do not
 post to each group separately.  Instead, specify all the groups on a
 single copy of the message.  This reduces network overhead and lets
 people who subscribe to more than one of those groups see the message
 once instead of having to wade through each copy.

             Please Rotate Messages With Questionable Content.

 Certain newsgroups (such as rec.humor) have messages in them that may
 be offensive to some people.  To make sure that these messages are
 not read unless they are explicitly requested, these messages should
 be encrypted.  The standard encryption method is to rotate each
 letter by thirteen characters so that an "a" becomes an "n".  This is
 known on the network as "rot13" and when you rotate a message the
 word "rot13" should be in the "Subject:" line.  Most of the software
 used to read Usenet articles have some way of encrypting and
 decrypting messages.  Your system administrator can tell you how the
 software on your system works, or you can use the Unix command
       tr '[a-m][n-z][A-M][N-Z]' '[n-z][a-m][N-Z][A-M]'
 Don't forget the single quotes!)

                   Summarize What You are Following Up.

 When you are following up someone's article, please summarize the
parts of
 the article to which you are responding.  This allows readers to
 appreciate your comments rather than trying to remember what the
original
 article said.  It is also possible for your response to get to some
sites
 before the original article.

 Summarization is best done by including appropriate quotes from the
 original article.  Do not include the entire article since it will
 irritate the people who have already seen it.  Even if you are
responding
 to the entire article, summarize only the major points you are
discussing.

                       When Summarizing, Summarize!

 When you request information from the network, it is common courtesy
to
 report your findings so that others can benefit as well.  The best
way of
 doing this is to take all the responses that you received and edit
them
 into a single article that is posted to the places where you
originally
 posted your question.  Take the time to strip headers, combine
duplicate
 information, and write a short summary.  Try to credit the
information to
 the people that sent it to you, where possible.

1995\08\21@054325 by Markus Imhof

flavicon
face

                     Use Mail, Don't Post a Follow-up.

 One of the biggest problems we have on the network is that when
someone
 asks a question, many people send out identical answers.  When this
 happens, dozens of identical answers pour through the net.  Mail your
 answer to the person and suggest that they summarize to the network.
This
 way the net will only see a single copy of the answers, no matter how
many
 people answer the question.

 If you post a question, please remind people to send you the answers
by
 mail and at least offer to summarize them to the network.

     Read All Follow-ups and Don't Repeat What Has Already Been Said.

 Before you submit a follow-up to a message, read the rest of the
messages
 in the newsgroup to see whether someone has already said what you
want to
 say.  If someone has, don't repeat it.

                   Check the Headers When Following Up.

 The news software has provisions to specify that follow-ups to an
 article should go to a specific set of newsgroups -- possibly
 different from the newsgroups to which the original article was
 posted.  Sometimes the groups chosen for follow-ups are totally
 inappropriate, especially as a thread of discussion changes with
 repeated postings.  You should carefully check the groups and
 distributions given in the header and edit them as appropriate.  If
 you change the groups named in the header, or if you direct
 follow-ups to a particular group, say so in the body of the message
 -- not everyone reads the headers of postings.

                 Be Careful About Copyrights and Licenses.

 Once something is posted onto the network, it is *probably* in the
 public domain unless you own the appropriate rights (most notably,
 if you wrote the thing yourself) and you post it with a valid
 copyright notice; a court would have to decide the specifics and
 there are arguments for both sides of the issue. Now that the US has
 ratified the Berne convention, the issue is even murkier (if you are
 a poster in the US).  For all practical purposes, though, assume
 that you effectively give up the copyright if you don't put in a
 notice.  Of course, the *information* becomes public, so you mustn't
 post trade secrets that way.

 When posting material to the network, keep in mind that material
 that is UNIX-related may be restricted by the license you or your
 company signed with AT&T and be careful not to violate it.  You
 should also be aware that posting movie reviews, song lyrics, or
 anything else published under a copyright could cause you, your
 company, or members of the net community to be held liable for
 damages, so we highly recommend caution in using this material.

                       Cite Appropriate References.

 If you are using facts to support a cause, state where they came
from.
 Don't take someone else's ideas and use them as your own.  You don't
want
 someone pretending that your ideas are theirs; show them the same
respect.

                   Mark or Rotate Answers and Spoilers.

 When you post something (like a movie review that discusses a detail
of
 the plot) which might spoil a surprise for other people, please mark
your
 message with a warning so that they can skip the message.  Another
 alternative would be to use the "rot13" protocol to encrypt the
message so
 it cannot be read accidentally.  When you post a message with a
spoiler in
 it make sure the word "spoiler" is part of the "Subject:" line.

                    Spelling Flames Considered Harmful.

 Every few months a plague descends on Usenet called the spelling
flame.
 It starts out when someone posts an article correcting the spelling
or
 grammar in some article.  The immediate result seems to be for
everyone on
 the net to turn into a 6th grade English teacher and pick apart each
other's
 postings for a few weeks.  This is not productive and tends to cause
 people who used to be friends to get angry with each other.

 It is important to remember that we all make mistakes, and that
 there are many users on the net who use English as a second
 language.  There are also a number of people who suffer from
 dyslexia and who have difficulty noticing their spelling mistakes.
 If you feel that you must make a comment on the quality of a
 posting, please do so by mail, not on the network.

                         Don't Overdo Signatures.

 Signatures are nice, and many people can have a signature added to
 their postings automatically by placing it in a file called
 "$HOME/.signature".  Don't overdo it.  Signatures can tell the world
 something about you, but keep them short.  A signature that is longer
 than the message itself is considered to be in bad taste.  The main
 purpose of a signature is to help people locate you, not to tell your
 life story.  Every signature should include at least your return
 address relative to a major, known site on the network and a proper
 domain-format address.   Your system administrator can give this to
 you.  Some news posters attempt to enforce a 4 line limit on
 signature files -- an amount that should be more than sufficient to
 provide a return address and attribution.

              Limit Line Length and Avoid Control Characters.

 Try to keep your text in a generic format.  Many (if not most) of
 the people reading Usenet do so from 80 column terminals or from
 workstations with 80 column terminal windows.  Try to keep your
 lines of text to less than 80 characters for optimal readability.
 If people quote part of your article in a followup, short lines will
 probably show up better, too.

 Also realize that there are many, many different forms of terminals
 in use.  If you enter special control characters in your message, it
 may result in your message being unreadable on some terminal types;
 a character sequence that causes reverse video on your screen may
 result in a keyboard lock and graphics mode on someone else's
 terminal.  You should also try to avoid the use of tabs, too, since
 they may also be interpreted differently on terminals other than
 your own.

      Please do not use Usenet as a resource for homework assignments.

 Usenet is not a resource for homework or class assignments. A common
 new user reaction to learning of all these people out there holding
 discussions is to view them as a great resource for gathering
 information for reports and papers.  Trouble is, after seeing a few
 hundred such requests, most people get tired of them, and won't reply
 anyway. Certainly not in the expected or hoped-for numbers. Posting
 student questionnaires automatically brands you a "newbie" and does
not
 usually garner much more than a tiny number of replies.  Further,
 some of those replies are likely to be incorrect.

 Instead, read the group of interest for a while, and find out what
the
 main "threads" are - what are people discussing? Are there any themes
 you can discover?  Are there different schools of thought?

 Only post something after you've followed the group for a few weeks,
 after you have read the Frequently Asked Questions posting if the
group
 has one, and if you still have a question or opinion that others will
 probably find interesting.  If you have something interesting to
 contribute, you'll find that you gain almost instant acceptance, and
 your posting will generate a large number of follow-up postings. Use
 these in your research; it is a far more efficient (and accepted) way
 to learn about the group than to follow that first instinct and post
a
 simple questionnaire.

          Please do not use Usenet as an advertising medium.

 Advertisements on Usenet are rarely appreciated.  In general, the
louder
 or more inappropriate the ad is, the more antagonism it will stir up.
 The accompanying posting "Rules for posting to Usenet" has more on
this
 in the section about "Announcement of professional products or
services".
 Try the biz.* hierarchies instead.

                  Avoid posting to multiple newsgroups.

 Few things annoy Usenet readers as much as multiple copies of a
posting
 appearing in multiple newsgroups.  (called 'spamming' for historical
 reasons) A posting that is cross-posted (i.e lists multiple
newsgroups
 on the Newsgroups: header line) to a few appropriate newsgroups is
 fine, but even with cross-posts, restraint is advised.  For a
 cross-post, you may want to set the Followup-To: header line to the
 most suitable group for the rest of the discussion.

                      Summary of Things to Remember


      Never forget that the person on the other side is human.
      Don't blame system admins for their users' behavior.
      Never assume that a person is speaking for their organization.
      Be careful what you say about others.
      Be brief.
      Your postings reflect upon you; be proud of them.
      Use descriptive titles
      Think about your audience.
      Be careful with humor and sarcasm.
      Only post a message once.
      Please rotate material with questionable content.
      Summarize what you are following up.
      Use mail, don't post a follow-up.
      Read all follow-ups and don't repeat what has already been said.
      Double-check follow-up newsgroups and distributions.
      Be careful about copyrights and licenses.
      Cite appropriate references.
      When summarizing, summarize.
      Mark or rotate answers or spoilers.
      Spelling flames considered harmful.
      Don't overdo signatures.
      Limit line length and avoid control characters.
      Please do not use Usenet as a resource for homework assignments.
      Please do not use Usenet as an advertising medium.
      Avoid posting to multiple newsgroups.

(*)UNIX is a registered trademark of X/Open.

-----------
     This document is in the public domain and may be reproduced or
     excerpted by anyone wishing to do so.




Advertising on Usenet

1. Introduction
2. Philosophy of Usenet
3. How to do it
4. How not to do it
5. Conclusion
6. Afterword: Advertising on the Internet


Introduction:
-------------

Advertising on Usenet is a frequently misunderstood subject.  The purpose
of this message is to explain some Usenet conventions regarding
advertising to new users and, hopefully, spare everyone involved a lot of
needless worry.


Philosophy of Usenet:
---------------------

Usenet started out in 1980 as a UNIX network linking sites which needed to
talk about and receive prompt updates on UNIX system configuration and
other UNIX questions, but almost immediately expanded to include forums on
science fiction, humans and computers, and other subjects.  In the decade
and a half since the creation of Usenet, a very strong onus *against*
advertising in Usenet discussion groups has grown up.

Advertising is widely seen as an 'off-topic' intrusion into the
discussions of any particular newsgroup (newsgroup is the Usenet word for
discussion group or bulletin board).  If everyone disregarded the
particular topics each newsgroup is intended to cover, and simply posted
whatever they want wherever they want, the entire system would break down.
Since no one is in charge of Usenet, and therefore no one can enforce the
custom of staying on-topic in any given newsgroup, it falls on each user
to help preserve the culture of open discussion and free speech that
Usenet has come to embody by not posting off-topic material in any
newsgroup.

This, of course, includes advertising.  Advertising is by far the most
pervasive form of off-topic posting, and therefore, gets most of the heat.

If an analogy will help you to visualize the situation, imagine a meeting
at your workplace or school.  People are discussing a certain issue -- for
example, getting new sidewalks installed downtown or getting new
schoolbooks for the elementary school.  In the midst of the discussions on
the new sidewalks or textbooks, someone walks into the room, clears their
throat, and begins to read an ad for a local restaurant.  When the person
finishes, he or she leaves without waiting for comment.

Now imagine if this happened over and over again each time you tried to
hold a meeting.  Very little would get done.  It's disruptive; it has
nothing to do with the reason the meeting was called; and worst, you're
taking up their time and not paying for it.

On Usenet, you see, if you wander into a newsgroup and post an ad for your
company in a discussion group, you're not paying for anything but the time
it took you to post it -- but thousands of computer systems around the
world are paying to receive it along with all their other Usenet messages,
and paying to store it, and so forth.  Is it any wonder people get testy
when some people ignore the no-advertising convention and make sites around
the world pay to receive advertising in a place it's not supposed to be
anyway?

That's not to say that advertising is absolutely banned from Usenet.
It's not.  It's only banned when it's off-topic.  This means that it's
considered extremely rude to post the same ad over and over to a bunch of
discussion groups without regard for what those groups are supposed to be
about, but on the other hand, it's perfectly all right to advertise in
places where your advertisement would be on-topic.

One suggestion, though: when you advertise in relevant groups, try to
keep the hype down.  Sales pitches are disliked; actual facts are not.


How to do it:
-------------

There are many newsgroups directly involved in selling.

Most of them are located in the misc.forsale hierarchy, and most of those
are related to computer buying and selling.  If you have an item to sell
which is in no way associated with computers, try
misc.forsale.non-computer (or misc.forsale, which
misc.forsale.non-computer will officially replace in a few months). Here
are all the misc.forsale groups:


misc.forsale                    General items for sale
misc.forsale.computers.d        Discussion of misc.forsale.computers.*.
misc.forsale.computers.discussion  Discussions only about items for sale.
misc.forsale.computers.mac      Apple Macintosh related computer items.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.misc  Macintosh expansion cards.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.cards.video Macintosh video cards.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc        Other Macintosh equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.portables   Portable Macintosh systems.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.software    Macintosh software.
misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.systems     Complete Macintosh systems.
misc.forsale.computers.memory   Memory chips & modules for sale & wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.modems   Modems for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.monitors Monitors and displays for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware     Networking hardware for sale & wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.other    Selling miscellaneous computer stuff.
misc.forsale.computers.other.misc       Miscellaneous other equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.other.software   Software for other systems.
misc.forsale.computers.other.systems    Complete other types of systems.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-clone IBM PC related computer items.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.audio        PC audio equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.misc   PC expansion cards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.cards.video  PC video cards.

1995\08\21@054325 by Markus Imhof

flavicon
face
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.misc Other PC-specific equipment.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards PC motherboards.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.portables    Portable PC systems.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.software     PC software.
misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.systems      Complete PC systems.
misc.forsale.computers.printers Printers and plotters for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.storage  Disk, CDROM, tape drives for sale and wanted.
misc.forsale.computers.workstation      Workstation related computer items.
misc.forsale.non-computer       Non-computer items for sale and wanted.

There are other options as well:

1) If and only if you are with a computer company which is releasing a new
product and you want to make word of this new product known to the
computing community, you can post a notice to the moderated newsgroup
comp.newprod.  The moderator, Chip Rosenthal, requires submissions to be
informative and hype-free so people will use comp.newprod as a reliable
way of gaining information.

2) Each part of the world tends to have what's called a 'local hierarchy
of newsgroups' -- newsgroups limited to a geographic area.  For example,
central North Carolina (home of the so-called Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill
"Research Triangle") has a local hierarchy called triangle.*.  In your
local hierarchy, if one exists (and not everyone has one, but most people
do), you'll often find groups with names like *.classifieds, *.forsale,
*.wanted: triangle.forsale and triangle.wanted are the groups in the
aforementioned triangle.* hierarchy.

3) There is a hierarchy of newsgroups called "biz.*" which exist mainly
for announcement from companies of new products, fixes and enhancements,
postings of demo software, and so forth.  If your site carries biz.*, and
you feel that a biz.* hierarchy group would suit your purposes, go to
biz.config and ask for it.

Here are existing biz.* groups:

biz.americast           AmeriCast announcements.
biz.americast.samples   Samples of AmeriCast. (Moderated)
biz.books.technical     Technical bookstore & publisher advertising & info.
biz.clarinet            Announcements about ClariNet.
biz.clarinet.sample     Samples of ClariNet newsgroups for the outside world.
biz.comp.accounting     Dialogue specific to the accounting software industry.
biz.comp.hardware       Generic commercial hardware postings.
biz.comp.mcs            MCSNet. (Moderated)
biz.comp.services       Generic commercial service postings.
biz.comp.software       Generic commercial software postings.
biz.comp.telebit        Support of the Telebit modem.
biz.comp.telebit.netblazer      The Telebit Netblazer.
biz.config              Biz Usenet configuration and administration.
biz.dec                 DEC equipment & software.
biz.dec.decathena       DECathena discussions.
biz.dec.decnews         The DECNews newsletter. (Moderated)
biz.dec.ip              IP networking on DEC machines.
biz.digex.announce      Announcements from Digex. (Moderated)
biz.digital.announce    DEC news & announcements. (Moderated)
biz.digital.articles    DEC newsletter, catalog & journal. (Moderated)
biz.general             Dialogue related to business operations & offerings.
biz.jobs.offered        Position announcements.
biz.misc                Miscellaneous postings of a commercial nature.
biz.next.newprod        New product announcements for the NeXT.
biz.oreilly.announce    New prod. announcements from O'Reilly & Assoc. (Mod)
biz.pagesat             For discussion Pagesat Satellite Usenet Newsfeed.
biz.sco.announce        SCO and related product announcements. (Moderated)
biz.sco.binaries        Binary packages for SCO Xenix, UNIX, or ODT. (Mod)
biz.sco.general         Q&A, discussions and comments on SCO products.
biz.sco.magazine        To discuss SCO Magazine and its contents.
biz.sco.opendesktop     ODT environment and applications tech info, q&a.
biz.sco.sources         Source code ported to an SCO operating env. (Mod)
biz.sco.vtcl            SCO Visual Tcl.
biz.stolen              Postings about stolen merchandise.
biz.stortek.forum       Storage Technology Corporation.
biz.tadpole.sparcbook   Discussions on the Sparcbook portable computer.
biz.test                Biz newsgroup test messages.
biz.univel.misc         Discussions and comments on Univel products.
biz.zeos.announce       Zeos Product Announcements. (Moderated)
biz.zeos.general        Zeos technical support and general information.

Not every company's goods will be appropriate for a biz.* hierarchy
newsgroup, and not every site will carry biz.*.  It's up to the people
who run your particular site.

4) If you or your company have an advertisement that's relevant to an
existing newsgroup or newsgroups you can post informational postings to
those newsgroups.  However, you are strongly encouraged to keep such
postings hype-free.  What often works very well is to post information
about your services or product and include a contact address, World Wide
Web site, or phone number for people to use to get more information.

For example, if you want to post a notice about your immigration law
services, you could post a message to alt.visa.us or the various
misc.immigration newsgroups, where you'd find a large population of people
interested in that or related subjects.  Posting the same ad to
rec.sport.football.college would *not* be appropriate because
rec.sport.football.college has nothing to do with immigration law, visas,
or becoming an American citizen.

This is not to say that such ads will always be welcome; the proliferation
of inappropriate ads (ads posted in the wrong way to the wrong place) has
resulted in *all* ads, even informational ads posted to the appropriate
newsgroup, tending to get a cold shoulder if not worse.  You can help by
limiting your ads to *informational* postings posted *only* *where*
*appropriate*.

5) In certain cases, you will find groups with 'marketplace' in their
names... for example, rec.games.board.marketplace.  Groups with that word
in their name are intended for buying, selling, and trading items of that
subject or type; for example, rec.games.board.marketplace is the
appropriate place to post a notice if you have a vintage copy of Monopoly
or Diplomacy to sell.

How not to do it
----------------

Unfortunately, there are just about as many *inappropriate* ways to
advertise on Usenet as there are appropriate ways.

1) The first way NOT to do it is to post off-topic ads in off-topic
newsgroups.

For example, you run a rug company.  So you post an advertisement about
your rugs in news.newusers.questions.  Not surprisingly, a lot of people
send you email telling you what a jerk you are.

Why'd they do this, you ask?  It's simple: news.newusers.questions has
nothing to do with selling rugs.  Your ad was as off-topic as if someone
had tried to get a discussion going there about the upcoming football
season or started posting a lot of messages about their recent vacation.

Suppose you own that rug company, and you regularly read
rec.crafts.textiles.weaving.  Would you like it if someone started coming
in and posting a lot of ads to the newsgroup about some homeopathic
ginseng tablets, and then someone else came in and started trying to sell
magazine subscriptions, and it became hard to find discussion of weaving?

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" isn't just a good
idea on Usenet.  It's the way things are, and if you act rudely by
posting ads in newsgroups that have nothing to do with what you're
advertising, people will be very unhappy with you.

2) Spamming.

Spamming is defined as posting identical or nearly-identical ads to a lot
of newsgroups, one right after the other.  Since it's really not that
difficult to write a program that will post the same advertisement to
dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of newsgroups, a lot of people have
taken to doing this.

What's happened to people who've spammed?

They've lost their accounts, been mail-bombed (had thousands of pieces of
junk email sent to them), had people call up and yell at them in the
middle of the night, had people forward their mail (by this I mean MAIL
mail, not email) to someplace strange, had people sign them up for
thousands of unwanted magazine subscriptions, had people send them
thousands of pages of condemnatory faxes, and so forth.

*Nothing* is as hated on Usenet as spamming.  It's extremely, unbelievably
rude and if you do it, you *will* come to regret it.  This is not a threat
-- it's an observation. Any benefits spamming might have brought you will
be more than counteracted by the intense public outcry against you in
every newsgroup you posted your ad to.

Some members of the media have gotten the mistaken impression that
spamming is hated because it's *advertising*.  It's true that Usenet
readers don't have much fondness for advertising, but the real reason
spamming is hated so much is because it's unbelievably *rude*.  Each copy
of the ad takes up disk space on thousands of machines around the world --
and if you post the ad 1000 times, that's millions of copies of your
message that *you* are making other people pay to store copies of.  When
you spam, you're hogging hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of other
people's storage space.

So please, don't do it.  I've already explained that *one* copy of an
off-topic ad is rude because it has nothing to do with the group it was
posted to.  Multiply that by a thousand times to get an idea of how rude
it is to spam.

Another consideration against spamming is that Usenet readers developed
defenses against it, so it's not very effective.  There are quite a few
spam detectors running on Usenet, and if one of them detects that the same
message has been posted repeatedly to multiple newsgroups, the humans who
run those spam detectors will step in and actually *erase* the spamming
messages with 'cancel' messages which are honored at most sites around the
world.

A common misconception shared by many members of the media is that
spam is bad because it's *advertising* and that people who cancel spam are
doing so to get rid of *advertising*.  In actual point of fact, most
Usenet users consider cancellation to be extremely bad manners and
something to be done only as a last resort.  When spam-cancellers cancel
spam, it's done because of the *volume* (posting hundreds of times), not
because of the content.

The analogy that's often used is that yes, you have the right to walk down
the street and say whatever you like -- but you do NOT have the right to
stick your head in someone's house at 3 am and shout through a bullhorn.

So if you *do* spam, you're likely to lose your account, have your
personal life made a living hell, possibly get sued by people whose
storage space you're taking up, and not very many people are going to pay
attention to or even see your advertisement.   It's just plain not worth
the grief you'll get.

Sorry to be unpleasant about it, but spam's a really bad idea.

Finally, if you're wondering where the term "spamming" came from, it came
from a Monty Python sketch in which the characters were in a restaurant
which mainly sold spam.  Items on the menu included things like "spam,
spam, spam, eggs, ham, and spam."  Whenever the waitress recited the menu,
a group of Vikings in the corner would chime in with her, chanting the
word "spam" over and over, drowning out everything else.  Some members of
the media have spread the explanation that the word "spamming" derives
from throwing chunks of spam into a fan.  This is not the case.

3) Don't send unsolicited ads via email to people you've seen post.

Another often-practiced and often-punished scheme is to send email to
mailing lists compiled from various newsgroups; people who've posted to
this group or that in the last two weeks wind up on occasion getting ads
for timeshare condos in Cancun or dubious credit schemes.

Suffice it to say that junk email, using Usenet posters' addresses, is
also a really bad idea.  Most sites will yank your account if you do that
kind of thing.

4) Don't mail-merge ads either in order to avoid being called a spammer.

Some advertisers noticed that it was only *identical* postings that were
getting cancelled by the spam cancellers, and cleverly came up with a way
to post their ad to dozens of newsgroups while varying a line or two to
make it look sufficiently different to avoid being cancelled.

For example, one book editor posted ads to dozens of newsgroups about his
book, essentially giving a sales pitch for said book, while adding a
paragraph to each article that purported to contain the text that had been
printed about the given newsgroup in said book.  It was rather obvious
that the editor wasn't interested in getting comments on the text, since
the book had already been published, and eventually an employee at the
company admitted that the technique had been used to try to avoid
triggering the spam cancellers and that the point had indeed been to
broadcast the ad widely.

It's to your ultimate benefit *not* to do the Usenet equivalent of
sweepstakes ads; don't do postings that say things like "Congratulations,
REC.FOOD.DRINK.BEER reader, you are among the lucky few to be included in
this amazing offer."

Conclusion
----------

To make a long story short, off-topic advertising and advertising that
equates to a bullhorn stuck into someone's window in the middle of the
night is a bad idea.  *Please* exercise restraint and don't make the
mistake many have of thinking that just because there's no central
authority that can punish you for spamming newsgroups, that there will be
no consequences if you do.  There will be, and you might be surprised by
the lengths the vengeful Usenet readers can go to when someone spams their
favorite group with yet another off-topic advertisement.  If you want to
advertise on Usenet, you can, but please follow the tips contained in
this document's "How to do it"s section and don't make the mistakes
listed in "How not to do it."


Afterword: Advertising on the Internet
--------------------------------------

It should be noted that there are many ways to advertise on the
Internet that don't involve Usenet at all.  Usenet, you see, is NOT the
same thing as the Internet.  Usenet is transmitted via the Internet, but
is also transmitted via other means (See "What is Usenet" in
news.announce.newusers for more information).  The Internet also includes
services like ftp, telnet, gopher, and the World Wide Web, and no one's
going to cause you the least difficulty if you use them to advertise.

As a matter of fact, thousands of companies have their very own WWW pages
up for people around the planet to use, look at, and get information
from.  A World Wide Web page allows you to put up graphics, text, and
sound in an interactive hypertext format that's remarkably easy to set up
and use via a program like Mosaic or Netscape.

So, here's a parting tip: if you want to advertise via the Internet, get
a WWW page set up, then let people in appropriate newsgroups (and
elsewhere) know where to find it.  If you need help getting going, ask
the people who run your site or scout out the Usenet newsgroup
comp.infosystems.http://www.misc for help.  It's really not that hard to set up
a WWW page, and hey, if you build it, they will come.

Just don't spam anyone in the process, and you'll be all right.



--========================_19125980==_--

1995\08\21@054526 by Markus Imhof

flavicon
face
Oops - I'm terribly sorry. I tried to reply to sorgi, but accidentially
reposted the stuff to the list - with a large attachment file from
.newusers. Please thrash the stuff if you happen to run accross it, and
accept my apologies.

Bye
 Markus

1995\08\21@061632 by Colin Manning

picon face
> Forwarded by:   "Ian Munro" <ELESVR1/ELEQIM>
> Forwarded to:   eleqcm
> Date forwarded: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:39:02 +0100 (BST)
> Date sent:      Sun, 20 Aug 1995 17:00:37 -0600
> Send reply to:  pic microcontroller discussion list
<PICLIST%spamBeGoneMITVMA.BITNETKILLspamspamletterbox.rl.ac.uk>
> From:           SORGI <KILLspamsorgispam.....TIBALT.SUPERNET.AB.CA>
> Subject:        Information as per your request.
> Originally to:  pahEraseMEspamcanuck.com, KILLspamtoptenspamBeGonespamspamlistserv.clark.net,
KILLspamtidbitsspam_OUTspam.....ricevm1.rice.edu,
>                 spamnew-listEraseMEspamvm1.nodak.edu, @spam@india-lspamindnet.bgsu.edu,
>                 omri-lspam@spam@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, spamccman-lRemoveMEspamspamuga.cc.uga.edu,
>                 STOPspamindia-dEraseMEspamindnet.bgsu.edu, @spam@pacs-l@spam@spamspam_OUTuhupvm1.uh.edu,
>                 .....china-ndKILLspamspamEraseMEkentvm.kent.edu, EraseMEfedjobsTakeThisOuTspamcaligari.Dartmouth.EDU,
>                 KILLspamchan-msgspamRemoveMEitssrv1.ucsf.edu, lookingTakeThisOuTspamspam_OUTindnet.bgsu.edu,
>                 STOPspamisraelinespamspam_OUTtaunivm.tau.ac.il, EraseMEmacchat@spam@spamTakeThisOuTvm.temple.edu,
>                 spamBeGonechina-nnSTOPspamspamspam_OUTasuvm.inre.asu.edu, .....tesl-l@spam@spamRemoveMEcunyvm.cuny.edu,
>                 spamBeGonelate-show-news.....spamspam_OUTamerican.edu, jamestown-l@spam@spamspamBeGoneeva.dc.LSOFT.COM,
>                 spamBeGonegermnewsEraseMEspamvm.gmd.de, humorspamspamBeGoneuga.cc.uga.edu,
spam_OUTonline-lKILLspamspam.....listserv.clark.net,
>                 STOPspamlinguistRemoveMEspamKILLspamtamvm1.tamu.edu, @spam@ucsmonspam_OUTspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
>                 RemoveMEnnews.....spamspamBeGonevm1.nodak.edu, spam_OUTcndpsu-lKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTpsuvm.psu.edu,
cmpsu-l.....spam.....psuvm.psu.edu,
>                 TakeThisOuTroots-lspamspamvm1.nodak.edu, KILLspamlibref-l@spam@spamKILLspamkentvm.kent.edu,
tftd-lspam_OUTspamKILLspamtamvm1.tamu.edu,
{Quote hidden}

slajob-lspamspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
>                 cndvt-lspamBeGonespam@spam@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu, STOPspamcica-l.....spamEraseMEubvm.cc.buffalo.edu,
>                 deosnewsspamBeGonespamTakeThisOuTpsuvm.psu.edu, KILLspamchina-nnTakeThisOuTspamTakeThisOuTutarlvm1.uta.edu,
>                 EraseMEnewslinespamspamBeGonevm.its.rpi.edu, spam_OUTinter-lEraseMEspam.....vtvm1.cc.vt.edu,
spamintercatspamoclc.org,
>                 KILLspamcnc-lspamspamEraseMEuvvm.uvic.ca, nettrainRemoveMEspamSTOPspamubvm.cc.buffalo.edu,
spam_OUTcpsrspam_OUTspamKILLspamgwuvm.gwu.edu,
>                 .....psyche-lspamspamrfmh.org, spamBeGonebugtraqspam.....netspace.org, TakeThisOuTedtechTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEmsu.edu,
>                 RemoveMEvmwkshopKILLspamspamRemoveMEvm.marist.edu,
pm-news%spamBeGoneua1vm.ua.educhina-ntspamspamuga.cc.uga.edu,
{Quote hidden}

spamtesljb-l@spam@spamcunyvm.cuny.edu,
>                 spam_OUTcfs-newsspam_OUTspamspamBeGonelist.nih.gov, .....acadvSTOPspamspamvm1.nodak.edu,
STOPspamepaa@spam@spamasuvm.inre.asu.edu,
>                 @spam@epic-lEraseMEspamoclc.org, spam_OUTwin95-lspameva.dc.LSOFT.COM,
spammacprog.....spamTakeThisOuTwuvmd.wustl.edu,
>                 TakeThisOuTcontents@spam@spamTakeThisOuTacadvm1.uottawa.ca, honda-lspamspambrownvm.brown.edu,
>                 EraseMEinnopacspam_OUTspamspammaine.maine.edu,
africa-n%utoronto.bitnetSTOPspamspamlistserv.net,
>                 EraseMEvisbas-lspam@spam@listserv.tamu.edu, TakeThisOuTjte-l.....spamTakeThisOuTvtvm1.cc.vt.edu,
>                 spam_OUTctheory@spam@spamSTOPspamvm1.mcgill.ca, TakeThisOuTedres-lKILLspamspamKILLspamunbvm1.csd.unb.ca,
>                 teslej-lSTOPspamspamRemoveMEcmsa.berkeley.edu, spamBeGonee-europespam@spam@pucc.princeton.edu,
>                 spam_OUTnatodata@spam@spamEraseMEcc1.kuleuven.ac.be,
usumts-l%KILLspambrlncc.bitnetKILLspamspamlistserv.net,
>                 nursenet%spamBeGoneutoronto.bitnetspamRemoveMElistserv.net, spamrptcrdEraseMEspamgwuvm.gwu.edu,
>                 wfw-l%umdd.bitnetspamBeGonespamlistserv.net, pmailspamTakeThisOuTua1vm.ua.edu,
>                 big-lanspam_OUTspamlistserv.syr.edu, spamtrdev-lspampsuvm.psu.edu,
EraseMEh-womenKILLspamspamRemoveMEmsu.edu,
>                 spam_OUTpakistanTakeThisOuTspam@spam@psuvm.psu.edu, RemoveMEaspire-l@spam@spamRemoveMEiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
>                 spamBeGoneareportspam_OUTspamitesmvf1.rzs.itesm.mx, TakeThisOuTtechwr-lspam.....vm1.ucc.okstate.edu,
>                 KILLspammde-lspamspammizzou1.missouri.edu,
kidlit-lTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEbingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu,
>                 EraseMEnihtoc-l@spam@spamlist.nih.gov, alctsspamBeGonespamKILLspamUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU,
.....ill-lKILLspamspamRemoveMEuvmvm.uvm.edu,
>                 EraseMEmacscrpt.....spam@spam@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU,
fapesp-l%bruspvm.bitnetRemoveMEspamKILLspamlistserv.net,
>                 spam_OUTcruise-lspam_OUTspam.....unlvm.unl.edu,
pgssnews%spamvm1.mcgill.canihongoEraseMEspam.....mitvma.mit.edu,
>                 direct-l.....spam@spam@uafsysb.uark.edu, exlibrisspamrutvm1.rutgers.edu,
>                 STOPspamisworldspam_OUTspamRemoveMEirlearn.ucd.ie, sbpchoje%brlncc.bitnetKILLspamspamlistserv.net,
>                 TakeThisOuTpagemakrRemoveMEspamindycms.iupui.edu, spamBeGoneclayartTakeThisOuTspamukcc.uky.edu,
>                 RemoveMEmuseum-lspamspamunmvma.unm.edu, RemoveMEberita-lspamvmd.cso.uiuc.edu,
>                 spamicen-lKILLspamspamKILLspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, TakeThisOuTarch-lKILLspamspam.....tamvm1.tamu.edu,
@spam@h-amstdyspamBeGonespammsu.edu,
>                 @spam@pakistanspam_OUTspamasuvm.inre.asu.edu, spam_OUTlastwedsTakeThisOuTspamEraseMElistserv.clark.net,
>                 RemoveMEcrtnetspamspamKILLspampsuvm.psu.edu, help-netspamvm.temple.edu,
pu-newsspam_OUTspamvm.cc.purdue.edu,
>                 mdk-12%EraseMEumdd.bitnetRemoveMEspamEraseMElistserv.net, ansax-lspamwvnvm.wvnet.edu,
>                 air-l.....spamvtvm1.cc.vt.edu, RemoveMEcomics-lEraseMEspamunlvm.unl.edu,
TakeThisOuTcommcollRemoveMEspamukcc.uky.edu,
>                 @spam@enews-outspamRemoveMEmail.eworld.com, psrt-lRemoveMEspammizzou1.missouri.edu,
>                 .....activ-lSTOPspamspamTakeThisOuTmizzou1.missouri.edu,
ufrjncen%EraseMEufrj.bitnetspamspam_OUTlistserv.net,
>                 spamBeGonejobplacespam_OUTspamnews.jobweb.org, RemoveMEcar-engRemoveMEspamearn.cvut.cz,
>                 teslca-l.....spamKILLspamcunyvm.cuny.edu, netmonthSTOPspamspamRemoveMEvm.marist.edu,
>                 TakeThisOuTmediev-lspamukanvm.cc.ukans.edu,
dairy-l%STOPspamumdd.bitnetTakeThisOuTspamlistserv.net,
>                 .....h-womenspamUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU, TakeThisOuToracle-lspamccvm.sunysb.edu,
>                 .....psygrd-jKILLspamspam@spam@acadvm1.uottawa.ca, bestwebspamspamRemoveMEvm.ege.edu.tr,
>                 TakeThisOuTwx-talkspamBeGonespamRemoveMEvmd.cso.uiuc.edu, TakeThisOuTmarmam.....spamuvvm.uvic.ca,
>                 spam_OUTchminf-lspam_OUTspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, KILLspamnetscapeRemoveMEspamspamirlearn.ucd.ie,
>                 aeraRemoveMEspam@spam@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, indiaKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTcunyvm.cuny.edu,
>                 TakeThisOuTnative-l.....spamRemoveMEtamvm1.tamu.edu, cwis-lspamEraseMEmsu.edu,
@spam@natoscispamcc1.kuleuven.ac.be,
>                 RemoveMEbgrass-lRemoveMEspamRemoveMEukcc.uky.edu, EraseMEir-lspam_OUTspamSTOPspamuccvma.ucop.edu,
>                 KILLspamfish-ecologyRemoveMEspam.....searn.sunet.se, @spam@kidcafe.....spam.....vm1.nodak.edu,
>                 .....sonic-verseRemoveMEspamvm.marist.edu, TakeThisOuTpns-lspamKILLspampsuvm.psu.edu,
spam_OUTquiltnetspamspamEraseMEukcc.uky.edu,
>                 spam_OUTphilosopspamEraseMEvm1.yorku.ca, KILLspamgardensKILLspamspam@spam@ukcc.uky.edu,
@spam@chemed-l@spam@spamTakeThisOuTuwf.cc.uwf.edu,
>                 spam_OUTseasia-l@spam@spamSTOPspammsu.edu, buslib-l%spam_OUTidbsu.bitnetKILLspamspamlistserv.net,
>                 TakeThisOuTqualrs-lspamBeGonespamuga.cc.uga.edu, winhlp-lTakeThisOuTspamadmin.humberc.on.ca,
>                 spamhum-molgen.....spamnic.surfnet.nl,
educational-researchspamasuvm.inre.asu.edu,> >                 EraseMEankietaspamspamBeGoneplearn.edu.pl, spamvolcanoKILLspamspamasuvm.inre.asu.edu,
>                 spam_OUTanthro-lKILLspamspam.....ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, devel-lKILLspamspamSTOPspamamerican.edu,
>                 e-poetry%EraseMEubvm.cc.buffalo.eduwindowsEraseMEspamspam_OUTvm1.mcgill.ca,> stat-lKILLspamspamvm1.mcgill.ca,
>                 spamBeGonearlis-lspamRemoveMEukcc.uky.edu, info-macKILLspamspamvmd.cso.uiuc.edu,
@spam@theorynt.....spamvm1.nodak.edu,
>                 TakeThisOuTblues-lspam_OUTspam.....brownvm.brown.edu,
newnir-l%itocsivm.bitnetEraseMEspamEraseMElistserv.net,
>                 @spam@bbshopRemoveMEspamRemoveMEadmin.humberc.on.ca, .....asis-lEraseMEspamvmd.cso.uiuc.edu,
>                 nurseresEraseMEspamRemoveMEkentvm.kent.edu, @spam@scupnews.....spamRemoveMEcmsa.berkeley.edu,
>                 .....vocnet.....spam.....cmsa.berkeley.edu, RemoveMEprimaryspamBeGonespam@spam@umrvmb.umr.edu,
KILLspamteluguTakeThisOuTspam.....vm1.nodak.edu,
>                 KILLspamflyfishspam_OUTspamspam_OUTukcc.uky.edu, RemoveMEsas-lspamBeGonespam.....uga.cc.uga.edu,
tec-tenspamEraseMEsjuvm.stjohns.edu,
>                 RemoveMEtoolb-l@spam@spamspamBeGonelistserv.arizona.edu, spamBeGonevictoriaTakeThisOuTspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
>                 spamsuearn-lspamspamBeGoneubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, TakeThisOuTreachspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTucsbvm.ucsb.edu,
>                 cumrec-lspamBeGonespamEraseMEvm1.nodak.edu, spamBeGoneheproc-lspamspam_OUTamerican.edu,
>                 spamBeGonemedtextlspamspamvmd.cso.uiuc.edu, conslinkspamspam_OUTsivm.si.edu,
spamh-teach@spam@spamEraseMEmsu.edu,
>                 KILLspamhumanistspambrownvm.brown.edu, spamacsoft-lspamKILLspamwuvmd.wustl.edu,
>                 @spam@ioob-lRemoveMEspamuga.cc.uga.edu, RemoveMEhytel-lspamspamEraseMEkentvm.kent.edu,
>                 .....flteachSTOPspamspam@spam@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, .....h-rhetorspamBeGonespam.....UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU,
>                 @spam@mitbayspamRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu, spamBeGoneipct-l.....spamTakeThisOuTguvm.ccf.georgetown.edu,
>                 @spam@media-lspambingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu,
KILLspamchildlitspamspamRemoveMErutvm1.rutgers.edu,
>                 @spam@psycgradKILLspamspamacadvm1.uottawa.ca, KILLspammentor-lspamvm.its.rpi.edu,
>                 spamchristiaspam_OUTspamasuvm.inre.asu.edu, STOPspamnsc94-l.....spamspamgumncc.earn.net,
>                 .....k12admin@spam@spamSTOPspamlistserv.syr.edu, e-clipsspamspamRemoveMEsjuvm.stjohns.edu,
>                 .....jwaspamBeGonespamSTOPspamubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, cybsys-lEraseMEspamRemoveMEbingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu,
>                 sts-lspamBeGonespamspamutkvm1.utk.edu, @spam@access-lEraseMEspamspameva.dc.LSOFT.COM,
>                 EraseMEvpiej-lTakeThisOuTspamTakeThisOuTvtvm1.cc.vt.edu, RemoveMEmtg-lTakeThisOuTspamspamoracle.wizards.com,
>                 KILLspamscit-bibspamRemoveMEqucdn.queensu.ca, KILLspambirdchatspamspamlistserv.arizona.edu,
>                 @spam@poli-sciEraseMEspamrutvm1.rutgers.edu,
shaksper%KILLspamutoronto.bitnetTakeThisOuTspamEraseMElistserv.net,
>                 usuvm-l%brlncc.bitnetEraseMEspamRemoveMElistserv.net, spam_OUTgames-lRemoveMEspambrownvm.brown.edu,
>                 RemoveMEtaxacom@spam@spamcmsa.berkeley.edu, @spam@h-asiaspam_OUTspammsu.edu,
KILLspamlabmgrspamukcc.uky.edu,
>                 STOPspambalt-lspamspamEraseMEubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, .....compmedEraseMEspamspamBeGonewuvmd.wustl.edu,
>                 spamint-lawspamvm1.spcs.umn.edu, TakeThisOuTgaelic-lspamEraseMEirlearn.ucd.ie,
>                 @spam@newedu-lspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneuhccvm.uhcc.hawaii.edu, spam_OUTpnews-lKILLspamspamsjuvm.stjohns.edu,
>                 KILLspammaps-lspamspamuga.cc.uga.edu, spammla-lspam_OUTspamSTOPspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
>                 autism%TakeThisOuTsjuvm.stjohns.eduh-filmEraseMEspammsu.edu,
EraseMElibrary@spam@spammiamiu.acs.muohio.edu,
>                 japanTakeThisOuTspamspamBeGonepucc.princeton.edu, KILLspamcethspamspamRemoveMEpucc.princeton.edu,
>                 RemoveMEquarkxprspam_OUTspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, aera-c.....spam@spam@asuvm.inre.asu.edu,
>                 spam_OUTjournetspamBeGonespam.....qucdn.queensu.ca, .....macav-lspamspamKILLspamuafsysb.uark.edu,
>                 sex-lspam_OUTspamSTOPspamtamvm1.tamu.edu, @spam@imagelibspamBeGonespamTakeThisOuTlistserv.arizona.edu,
>                 bibsoftspam_OUTspamindycms.iupui.edu, .....c18-lspam_OUTspam@spam@psuvm.psu.edu,
>                 @spam@birdeastspam@spam@listserv.arizona.edu, EraseMEassessTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEukcc.uky.edu,
>                 cdromlan%spam_OUTidbsu.bitnetspamlistserv.net, h-rhetorEraseMEspamSTOPspammsu.edu,
>                 STOPspam4ad-lspamspamBeGoneamerican.edu, spamBeGonenotis-lRemoveMEspamKILLspamUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU,
@spam@cfs-lspam@spam@list.nih.gov,
>                 c+spam_OUThealthspamBeGonespamspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, spamdis-lKILLspamspamiubvm.ucs.indiana.edu,
>                 EraseMEmletherspamspam_OUTvm1.mcgill.ca, ire-l.....spammizzou1.missouri.edu,
>                 spamccnet-lspam@spam@uga.cc.uga.edu, itd-jnlspam_OUTspamsjuvm.stjohns.edu,
>                 TakeThisOuTvbdata-l.....spamEraseMEtamvm1.tamu.edu, circplus%.....idbsu.bitnetspamspamlistserv.net,
>                 lita-l@spam@spam.....UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU, EraseMEpubpol-lspamspamspam_OUTvm1.spcs.umn.edu,
>                 RemoveMEsag-lspamspamBeGoneuafsysb.uark.edu, spamaaashranspamRemoveMEgwuvm.gwu.edu,
.....travel-lspamspamvm.ege.edu.tr,
>                 spamBeGonesocworkEraseMEspamRemoveMEuafsysb.uark.edu, TakeThisOuTfriendsRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTcaligari.Dartmouth.EDU,
>                 spamBeGonefcr-intKILLspamspamaliga.cesca.es, KILLspammac-l-requestspamspam_OUTyalevm.ycc.yale.edu,
>                 qstudy-l.....spamubvm.cc.buffalo.edu, .....psyche-dSTOPspamspamEraseMErfmh.org,
h-diplospam_OUTspam@spam@msu.edu,
>                 @spam@holocausRemoveMEspamEraseMEUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU, awareRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTcc1.kuleuven.ac.be,
>                 spamh-urbanTakeThisOuTspamUICVM.CC.UIC.EDU, @spam@omri-lTakeThisOuTspamearn.cvut.cz,
>                 EraseMEibmtcp-lspamBeGonespampucc.princeton.edu, slart-lspamTakeThisOuTcunyvm.cuny.edu,
>                 .....jewishgenspammail.eworld.com, .....athtrn-lspamiubvm.ucs.india
> To:             Multiple recipients of list PICLIST
<PICLIST%KILLspamMITVMA.BITNETTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEletterbox.rl.ac.uk>

{Quote hidden}

countries.
> Experience indicates the avarage return will be a minium of $600 US per month.
>
> This is your opportunity to be a part of a powerful group!
>
> ACT NOW! Send your money order for $100 US dollars to SORGI.
> You will recieve your Registration Number for identifiaction and
correspondence.
{Quote hidden}

_______________________________________________________________
>
> ZIP/Postal:
__________________________________________________________________
{Quote hidden}

__________________________________________________________________
>
> ================================================
> Make money orders payable to SORGI and
> Mail to:
>         SORGI
>         Suite 13, 2255 Centre Street North
>         Calgary, Alberta
>         Canada
>         T2E 2T4

What is this all about pleaser inlighten me


----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Colin Manning Technican   Elec.Eng. University of Hertfordshire
               Hatfield  England Tel 01707 284160
----------------------------------------------------------------------

1995\08\21@085416 by David Warman

flavicon
face
>                     Secured Overseas Regulatory Gaming Investments

This is a very convenient acronym.  Consider this:

Script started on Mon Aug 21 12:09:11 1995
1 >telnet tibalt.supernet.ab.ca 25
Trying 198.161.21.5 ...
Connected to tibalt.supernet.ab.ca.
Escape character is '^]'.
220-tibalt.supernet.ab.ca HP Sendmail (1.37.109.16/16.2) ready at Mon, 21 Aug
1995 05:09:30 -0600
220 ESMTP spoken here
VRFY SORGI
250 Tony Sorgi <sorgispamEraseMEtibalt.supernet.ab.ca>
QUIT
221 tibalt.supernet.ab.ca closing connection
Connection closed by foreign host.
2 >^D
script done on Mon Aug 21 12:09:43 1995

So, is "Tony" another convenient abbreviation, or is this just bizarre
co-incidence.  Enquring minds have probably already formed some
conclusions.  I do wonder whether this is legal?

Back to PICLIST things, I suppose this an example of the sort
of spammage we can expect as a mailing list.  On the other hand,
the overall S/N is pretty reasonable.

My main concern is that propagation would be slower if this were
a newsgroup.  We would probably also get a lot more totally irrelevant
junk (just opinion, since we'd be open to more cross-posting).

Out of interest, how many people receive this list anyway?  If there
are lots of  people here, then perhaps it would be better to use news.
If the mailing-list server can cope with the load, I'd prefer to stick
to the present format.  Would any of the present readership be unable
to read this list as a newsgroup?

Finally, if this list is moved to news, where should it go?  (This
may have some bearing on it's accessibility to other users.)

Comments, anyone?

Dave

1995\08\21@112951 by m.d.simpson.bra0505

flavicon
face
I personally think the this group should reside as a mailing
list.  A lot of people don't have news access (like me at work),
and a lot of people use 3rd party internet providers which
require news to be downloaded which disuades a lot of poeple to
download because of time and phone bill connection times.  (me
at home).  If this changed to a newsgroup, I would not subscribe

'"Re: Information as per your request."'
1995\08\21@141546 by Sheldon Ward

picon face
Please, when posting a reply to a message, DO NOT quote the entire message!
IF the message you are replying to is old, please summerize the orginal or
quote a SMALL amount.  Others do not require the entire orginal message to
understand the answer.  And if they do need more from the orginal they can
always check back in their mail for it or get it from the archive.

Don't be lazy and quote the entire message.  Quoting the entire message also
just adds to the internet volume and the more volume the slower it gets.  If
it is a 1k byte message for example and it is sent out to the PIC-List with
1000 readers, the server has the send out 1 MB of messages!  (Colin's 1 line
reply to the spam was almost 15KB in size)  Also, each subscriber has to
download the message which takes time (thus money!)

Here is a quote from Markus Imhof's message to Tony Sorgi about how to reply
to a message:

"                    Summarize What You are Following Up.

When you are following up someone's article, please summarize the parts of
the article to which you are responding.  This allows readers to  appreciate
your comments rather than trying to remember what the original  article
said.  It is also possible for your response to get to some sites  before
the original article.

Summarization is best done by including appropriate quotes from the
original article.  Do not include the entire article since it will  irritate
the people who have already seen it.  Even if you are responding to the
entire article, summarize only the major points you are
discussing.

                      When Summarizing, Summarize!

When you request information from the network, it is common courtesy to
report your findings so that others can benefit as well.  The best way of
doing this is to take all the responses that you received and edit them into
a single article that is posted to the places where you originally  posted
your question.  Take the time to strip headers, combine duplicate
information, and write a short summary.  Try to credit the information to
the people that sent it to you, where possible. "


Note that I did not quote the entire message just what was relevant.


Happy PIC'ing,


Sheldon

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*                                                                   *
* EraseMESheldonRemoveMEspamDirect.Ca            In beautiful Langley, B.C., Canada   *
*                                                                   *
* The opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect my own.  *
*                                                                   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

'Ready for non-window pics'
1995\08\22@184517 by Mike Keitz

flavicon
face
Martin Kirk <spammlkTakeThisOuTspamspamasu.edu> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Will someone please give me a brief list of the requirements for clearing
>the registers when moving one's code to non-windowed pics?  I assume it
>is a simple clear all registers operation.  Please confirm.
>

AFAIK, the non-window PICs have *exactly* the same chip in them as the
window ones.  So there should be no difference in operation between one type
and the other, other than inability to erase the non-window one.

(In an earlier thread, someone noted that newer versions of the window chips
have a non-erasable code protect bit.  So if this bit is set, a windowed
chip would be non-reusable as well.  Has Microchip issued an exact statement
on this?)

If you're counting on light through the window setting the RAM (registers?)
in a certain condition, this is very bad practice, not certain to work in
any case.  It is important to design your code so it doesn't assume anything
about the state of the RAM on power-up.  The special function registers are
reset as described in the table in the data book, but the RAM is not
guaranteed to be reset to any particular state, window chip or not.

There is no single "clear all registers" instruction.  However the FAQ
contains a good example of a loop which will do it.  Depending on the number
of locations that must be cleared for your code, it may be simpler to just
use a few clrf's on the vital locations.

-Mike

1995\08\22@195937 by Paul Christenson [N3EOP]

flavicon
face
>Will someone please give me a brief list of the requirements for clearing
>the registers when moving one's code to non-windowed pics?  I assume it
>is a simple clear all registers operation.  Please confirm.

Simpler than that.  Simply be sure to initialize each register before you
use it.  (Don't assume that it'll be zero before it's used.)

1995\08\23@005055 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Martin Kirk (@spam@mlkTakeThisOuTspamTakeThisOuTASU.EDU) wrote:

>Will someone please give me a brief list of the requirements for clearing
>the registers when moving one's code to non-windowed pics?  I assume it
>is a simple clear all registers operation.  Please confirm.

Martin:

For the 16C54/55/56:

   PORTA   EQU     004H

           MOVLW   PORTA       ;PREPARE TO ZERO ALL REGISTERS EXCEPT THE FSR,
           MOVWF   FSR         ;RTCC, PC, AND PROCESSOR STATUS REGISTERS.

   CLRRAM  CLRF    USEFSR           ;ZERO A REGISTER.

           INCFSZ  FSR         ;HAVE WE DONE THEM ALL?
           GOTO    CLRRAM           ;IF NOT, LOOP BACK AND ZERO ANOTHER.

For the 16C57/58:

   PORTA   EQU     004H

           MOVLW   PORTA       ;PREPARE TO ZERO ALL REGISTERS EXCEPT THE
           MOVWF   FSR         ;PROCESSOR STATUS, PC, RTCC, AND FSR
                               ;REGISTERS.

   CLRRAM  MOVLW   00011111B   ;ARE WE POINTING AT "USEFSR"?
           ANDWF   FSR,W       ;

           SKPNZ               ;IF NOT, SKIP AHEAD.

           BSF     FSR,BIT4    ;OTHERWISE, SKIP OVER THE PROCESSOR STATUS,
                               ;PC, RTCC, FSR, PORTA, PORTB, PORTC, AND
                               ;THE GLOBALLY-ACCESSIBLE FILE REGISTERS.

           CLRF    USEFSR      ;ZERO THE REGISTER AT WHICH WE'RE POINTING.

           INCFSZ  FSR         ;HAVE WE DONE THEM ALL?
           GOTO    CLRRAM      ;IF NOT, LOOP BACK AND ZERO ANOTHER.

   ; ALL FILE REGISTERS ARE ZEROED AND WE'RE IN DATA SEGMENT 0.

For the 16C71:

   GPREGS  EQU     00CH
   LASTGP  EQU     02FH

           MOVLW   GPREGS+1        ;CLEAR ALL GENERAL-PURPOSE REGISTERS.
           MOVWF   FSR             ;THIS ROUTINE WAS WRITTEN BY DON LEKEI.
           MOVLW   LASTGP-GPREGS   ;
           MOVWF   GPREGS          ;
                                   ;
   CLRRAM  CLRF    USEFSR          ;
                                   ;
           INCF    FSR             ;
           DECFSZ  GPREGS          ;
           GOTO    CLRRAM          ;

For the 16C74:

   FRSTGP0 EQU     020H
   LASTGP0 EQU     07FH

           MOVLW   FRSTGP0     ;PREPARE TO ZERO ALL GENERAL-PURPOSE
           MOVWF   FSR         ;REGISTERS.

   CLRRAM  MOVLW   LASTGP0+1   ;ARE WE POINTING PAST THE FINAL PAGE-0
           XORWF   FSR,W       ;REGISTER?

           SKPNZ               ;IF NOT, SKIP AHEAD.

           BSF     FSR,BIT5    ;OTHERWISE, ADJUST FSR TO SKIP OVER THE PAGE-1
                               ;SPECIAL-PURPOSE REGISTERS.

           CLRF    USEFSR      ;ZERO THE REGISTER AT WHICH WE'RE POINTING.

           INCFSZ  FSR         ;HAVE WE DONE THEM ALL?
           GOTO    CLRRAM      ;IF NOT, LOOP BACK AND ZERO ANOTHER.

In addition to the equates shown in the above code fragments, you should be
aware that "USEFSR" is my name for the indirect register (register number 0);
some Microchip documentation now refers to this register as "INDF".

"FSR", of course, should be equated to the appropriate register (this is left
as an exercise for the reader).

Enjoy...

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - @spam@fastfwdspam@spam@ix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

1995\08\23@144349 by PETE KLAMMER

flavicon
face
I received on Tue, 22 Aug 1995 18:44:59 from Mike Keitz <EraseMEmkeitzspamEraseMEBEV.NET>:

> Subject: Re: Ready for non-window pics
>
> Martin Kirk <mlkspamasu.edu> wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >Will someone please give me a brief list of the requirements for clearing
> >the registers when moving one's code to non-windowed pics?  I assume it
> >is a simple clear all registers operation.  Please confirm.
> >
>
> AFAIK, the non-window PICs have *exactly* the same chip in them as the
> window ones.  So there should be no difference in operation between one type
> and the other, other than inability to erase the non-window one.
>
> (In an earlier thread, someone noted that newer versions of the window chips
> have a non-erasable code protect bit.  So if this bit is set, a windowed
> chip would be non-reusable as well.  Has Microchip issued an exact statement
> on this?)

I have two PIC17C44-JW (windowed) engineering samples, one now a doorstop,
the other now a paperweight.  Microchip did confirm that the code-protect on
these windowed parts is not erasable.  One representative told me that there
is some kind of metal or metalization over those fuses.  Since the dice are
exactly the same in windowed and OTP parts, this is obviously intended to
make it more difficult for a would-be hacker to split open an OTP package
and create his/her own ``window'' to selectively erase the code-protect fuse
of a code-protected part.  When I posted my speculations on the MCHIPBBS
about the implementation (some fuse bits are eraseable, some are not) it was
removed and I was sent a private BBS mail message explaining that management
was understandably touchy about the topic.

The only difference between windowed and non-windowed parts is that an
erased windowed part tends to come up initialized the same way every time,
with zeros in lots of places which should not be relied upon.

Peter F. Klammer, Racom Systems Inc.                   spamBeGonePKlammerspamspamACM.Org
6080 Greenwood Plaza Boulevard                            (303)773-7411
Englewood, CO  80111                                  FAX:(303)771-4708

'A little advice for a novice?'
1995\08\30@155934 by Carl Connett

flavicon
face
Been on the list a few weeks now, trying to figure out where to
begin.  My first question was about PICs in general and I appreciated
the responses I got.  But I'm fast learning that I have a lot of
ground work to accomplish before I get into PIC's.  I think I want to
start learning about control using the XT sitting on my desk at home.
Maybe write some BASIC to control a stepping motor, then advance to
learning about Assembly-type languages.  From there, move into the
PIC world.  So my request for advice is about rudimentary stuff:  do
you know where I can direct my looking to find out about writing code
that uses the parallel or serial port on my XT?  If you care to
reply, feel free to write me direct, rather than clutter up this good
list with something nearly off-subject.  Thanks.
Carl Connett
Manufacturing Services
DaySpring Cards
PO Box 1010
Siloam Springs, AR  72761
Phn: 501.549.9251
Fax: 501.524.8813

mhs:carlc@outreach (compuserve)
carlcTakeThisOuTspamoutreach.mhs.compuserve.com (internet)


'Looking for a good quality I2C DAC'
1995\09\08@072636 by divanov
flavicon
face
> I need a DAC to controll a servo amp from a PIC. Sadly I don't have any more
> pins left. (it's an existing design.) I already have an I2C port implemented.
> I have tried to use a PCF8591 (Phillips 8 bit ADC / DAC) but it does'nt seem
> accurate enough. Can anyone point me in the direction of a different part?
> It MUST be I2C compatible.

Well, there is a whole range by MAXIM, but unfortunately it's only
SPI/QSPI/Microwire compatible. Maybe that will also do for your
purposes. It's also a serial protocol.
Here we go:

MAX504   10bit   SPI   serial version of 503
MAX515   10bit   SPI   ultra low power
MAX531   12bit   SPI   serial version on 530
MAX538   12bit   SPI   8pin ultra low power
MAX539   12bit   SPI   same, just 0-5V output
MAX543   12bit   SPI   multiplying
MAX7543  12bit   SPI   multiplying

Cheers,

Richard

1995\09\09@083556 by DEZA ASENSIO, Roberto

flavicon
face
Hi

>I need a DAC to controll a servo amp from a PIC. Sadly I don't have any more
>pins left. (it's an existing design.) I already have an I2C port implemented.
>I have tried to use a PCF8591 (Phillips 8 bit ADC / DAC) but it does'nt seem
>accurate enough. Can anyone point me in the direction of a different part?
>It MUST be I2C compatible.
>

Well, if a non-monochip way is accepted, you can use the Philips PCF 8574(A)
part, wich is a I/O port expansor I2C interfaced and connect your paralell DAC
of choice. Same can be done using a '73, programed to receive I2C request from
master PIC an output it to the DAC on *any* format.

Best regards:

>
--
Roberto Deza Asensio               |spamrdezaspam.....popmail.cti.unav.es
Universidad de Navarra             |.....rdezaspamspamEraseMEcun.unav.es
Centro de Proceso de Datos         |rda.....spam.....cpd.unav.es

'C compiler for 8051 ?'
1995\09\12@172418 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Daniel Aylen wrote:

> Does anyone know where I can find infomation ( faq's,help files, etc.)
> on the c compiler for the 8051 ( C51 )
> Thanks.
>   Daniel Aylen
>   spamDNAEraseMEspamspammsi.imt.za

Try: www.ee.latrobe.edu.au/postgrad/steve/8051.html
Although it's a local Australian mirror of many sites, it will give you
plenty of pointers.

You don't use PIC's?

Don ...

 Low Cost DIY PCB's for PICs & COM1/LPT1 PC I/O Interface Kits    ;!
 Don McKenzie. 29 Ellesmere Cres., Tullamarine. 3043 Australia    ;@
 Ph +61 3 9338 6286 Mobile + 61 019 939 799 KILLspamdonmckTakeThisOuTspamtbsa.com.au    ;#
 Check My Promo Disk at http://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/~sis/mirror/don/    ;$

1995\09\12@172418 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Daniel Aylen wrote:

> Does anyone know where I can find infomation ( faq's,help files, etc.)
> on the c compiler for the 8051 ( C51 )
> Thanks.
>   Daniel Aylen
>   spamBeGoneDNAspammsi.imt.za

Try: www.ee.latrobe.edu.au/postgrad/steve/8051.html
Although it's a local Australian mirror of many sites, it will give you
plenty of pointers.

You don't use PIC's?

Don ...

 Low Cost DIY PCB's for PICs & COM1/LPT1 PC I/O Interface Kits    ;!
 Don McKenzie. 29 Ellesmere Cres., Tullamarine. 3043 Australia    ;@
 Ph +61 3 9338 6286 Mobile + 61 019 939 799 EraseMEdonmck@spam@spamtbsa.com.au    ;#
 Check My Promo Disk at http://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/~sis/mirror/don/    ;$

'16C84's, 20 for $121.30'
1995\09\13@020402 by DOM ALTAMURO

flavicon
face
A while back I posted looking for a cheap source of PICs.

Well, called up F.A.I. (1-800-964-6117) and they
set me up with 20 for $5.89 each.  Paid by credit card.

The best price I found was $5.75 each, but that distrib.
didn't have them in stock.

So thanks go to Andrew of Fast Foward for the suggestion
to call a distributor.

---
~ SLMR 2.1a ~ He who hesitates is sometimes saved.

'A little advice for a novice?'
1995\09\13@223511 by William D. McMillan

picon face
Well, the best 'cookbook-style' approach to bit-banging the parallel port iis
Gordon McComb's "Robot Builder's Bonanza", ISBN 0-8306-2800-2.  Only $16.95
US.  For my final sophomore project a few  years back, I used it to help me
automate a small robot arm in QBASIC on an old Tandy 286 laptop.  Now if I
could only find an equally siimple and straightforward tutorial on using the
COM ports, I'd be all set.....sigh.

1995\09\14@105245 by Mike Schreck

flavicon
face
All,

>William D. McMillan wrote:
>Now if I could only find an equally siimple and straightforward
>tutorial on using the COM ports, I'd be all set.....sigh.
Check out the back issues of MicroComputer Journal, about summer 94
there was a series of articles on IBM PC Serial/parallel ports.

Michael J. Schreck

1995\09\14@120407 by Stuart Allman

flavicon
face
On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Mike Schreck wrote:

> All,
>
> >William D. McMillan wrote:
> >Now if I could only find an equally siimple and straightforward
> >tutorial on using the COM ports, I'd be all set.....sigh.

I prefer to use the windows Serial Port API.  The sample application
"TTY" that comes with Visual C++ should do the trick.  It will handle all
of the low level stuff while you concentrate on your hardware.

Stuart Allman
RemoveMEstudio@spam@spam@spam@halcyon.com

1995\09\14@131426 by Jizhong Wang

flavicon
face
>>William D. McMillan wrote:
>>Now if I could only find an equally siimple and straightforward
>>tutorial on using the COM ports, I'd be all set.....sigh.

Check   http://www.paranoia.com/~filipg/HTML/LINK/PORTS/F_Parallel.html

You will find what you needed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jizhong Wang                      Q: How does a constipated mathematician
                                     solve his problem?
RemoveMEJizwangTakeThisOuTspam@spam@cc.UManitoba.CA           A: He works it out with a pencil.  :<
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~jizwang
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

'searching for good pcb layout persom/firm in sf ba'
1995\09\15@080353 by KG Systems

flavicon
face
Try R&D Circuits in Edison NJ  908-549-4554.  They have done good work
for me working from gerber & drill files.


       Dan Garlen

               Kg Systems, Inc.  PHONE: 201-429-9300   12 Prospect Street
                                 FAX:   201-429-2298   Bloomfield, NJ  07003
                                 EMAIL: RemoveMEkgsys.....spaminteractive.net

On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, jory bell wrote:

> I have all the files, etc for a board done by a company on the east coast a
> while back. I need to get some layout revisions. Can anyone suggest a good
> place to turn who will do good, relatively wuick work?
>
> thanks,
> jory
>

'identifing electrical waveforms'
1995\09\16@110420 by Gerry Smith

flavicon
face
Hi All,
I have a pic16c71 that reads some electrical waveforms using the a/d converter.
Is it possible to program it to recognize specific qualities?  I have an eeg
sensor hooked up to it and would like it to recognize the different diseases
associated with each waveform.  If anyone has any information on this please
let me know.
Thanks in advance.

1995\09\16@113410 by Greg Riddick

flavicon
face
It can be quite difficult to even design algorithms to
discriminate "normal" EEG patterns from "abnormal" patterns. I
have worked with an EEG monitoring system that discriminates
seizure activity from background EEG, and even after a lot of
fine tuning, it is still only probably 80% accurate. Seizures
usually produce higher amplitude, periodic, waveforms.
Differentiating specific types of seizures or other patterns
would be even more difficult, except perhaps for very specific
things, like Abscence siezures that generally occur at specific
freqencies.
 You might start out by investigating the Fourier Transform code
in the Imbedded Control Handbook.   EEG patterns are periodic,
and  a FFT would resolve particular patterns to their fundamental
component freqencies.  You might find that particular "abnormal"
EEG's are associated with a typical pattern of component
frequencies, and that pattern matching for the FFT results might
be able to discriminate different conditions. If it were, me, I
would have the PIC send the digitized EEG serially to a PC, and
do the analyzing on the PC.

1995\09\16@152553 by Gerry Smith

flavicon
face
How about ECG signals?  I have a book that shows each characteristic of
different diseases.  Would the Fourier Transform code work in this way?
Also if I were to use a PC to analyze the data is there any information
on recognizing waveforms?  Thanks in advance.

1995\09\16@181958 by Greg Riddick

flavicon
face
Do you mean EKG's?  The heart of course produces a very periodic
signal that  could be analyzed with a FFT. OF course, as with the
EEG there is a lot of individual variation in basline frequency
and other characterstics of the signal.  Signal Processing is a
big field, and there are probably a lot of other people who are
more qualified to give you  advice here.  But you could take the
signal, say an EKG, and normalize it to a set baseline frequency,
say 70 BPM. Then you could run a FFT on a window looking at one
period of the heart beat. You would take the data from the FFT of
many patients who had a certain condition, say a slight
arrythmia, and perform a  procedure to extract the common
"signature" for that condition.  This procedure would not be
trivial, and could be a statistical matching function or maybe
even something like a neural-network type back-propagation
algorithm.  It might not be enough just to recognize fundamental
frequencies; the procedure would also have to be smart enough to
recognize other characteristics, like varying beat intervals in
an arrythmia.
 If you have access to a local medical school libary, do a
search on Medline for related topics, and I am sure you will find
a lot of papers on this subject.
 If you don't have experience doing this kind of thing, don't
expect to get anything working reliably within 6 months.
Cardiologists train for years to be able to detect subtle
differences in EKG's, and often can't tell you exactly why a
certain EKG suggests a certain condition.  Of course, with any
medical product, you unfortunately expose yourself to a lot of
liability, and that may be why we don't see more of this kind of
diagnostic software around.

1995\09\16@182412 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Gerry Smith <spam_OUTLIUKBspamspamBeGoneKIRK.NORTHERNC.ON.CA> wrote:

>How about ECG signals?  I have a book that shows each characteristic of
>different diseases.  Would the Fourier Transform code work in this way?
>Also if I were to use a PC to analyze the data is there any information
>on recognizing waveforms?

Gerry:

There are tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars waiting for the first
person to create an accurate EKG-reading machine; the fact that such a
machine doesn't exist should give you a clue as to the difficulty involved.

To do it, you'll need much more than just a Fourier transform and a PIC.  You
may want to read a few books on digital signal processing and (possibly)
fuzzy logic;  for starters, I'd suggest "Theory and Application of Digital
Signal Processing", by Rabiner and Gold (ISBN 0-13-914101-4), "Multirate
Digital Signal Processing", by Crochiere and Rabiner (ISBN 0-13-605162-6),
and "Signal Processing Algorithms", by Stearns and David (ISBN
0-13-809435-7).  That last book even comes with a disk; the programs are
written in FORTRAN, though.

Be forewarned... You'll need a strong mathematics background to get through
any of these books.

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - RemoveMEfastfwdTakeThisOuTspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

1995\09\16@211402 by Paul Christenson [N3EOP]

flavicon
face
Sounds like an application for a set of correlation routines.  Unfortunately,
a PIC is probably underpowered for such an application.

You probably won't be able to get close to the accuracy of a trained person,
though.  However, if you are simply looking for some kind of warning device
to supplement that trained person, then you might be able to come up with
something useful.

1995\09\16@212851 by Rolan

flavicon
face
I am currently involved in a project where we do computer EKG analysis
quite a bit. I'm not sure what you are looking for in the signal.
EKG is the cleanest bio-signal to work with. EEG's and EMG's get a bit
hairy and inconsistent. We use S-Plus and Labview- both fine A/D and
signal analyis programs. I have also written some of my own stuff for
simple R-wave finding and interbeat intervals.

-()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()-
Rolan Yang            http://hertz.njit.edu/~rxy5310   Electrical Engineer
.....rxy5310.....spamTakeThisOuThertz.njit.edu                             spamkyuriusspamtsb.weschke.com
VR,ROBOTICS,FENCING,HACKING,INDUSTRIAL MUSIC,ART,EXPLOSIVES,INLINE SKATING
                   THESE ARE A FEW OF MY FAVORITE THINGS.
-()---()---()---()---()---()-----()-()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()-
4 out of 10 people are annoyed by ^ this.

1995\09\17@101839 by Gerry Smith

flavicon
face
Well I meant EEG (brain waves) but I am also interested in ECG (heart waves).
So after using a FFT what should I do.  I see some code in the Embedded
Handbook for the FFT.  I have access to an ECG book which lists most of the
diseases and their waveforms.  How do I program it to actually recognize
the waveform? Thank{ in advance.

1995\09\17@102251 by Gerry Smith

flavicon
face
What is this Labview program?  Does it compare two signals and tells you if
they match?  Could you give me some more information on this?  I have been
told I should use a fast fourier transformation to isolate the main signals
then I should analyze it.  How can I get the analysis after I collected
everything?  Thanks in advance.

1995\09\17@120032 by Rolan

flavicon
face
On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Gerry Smith wrote:

> Well I meant EEG (brain waves) but I am also interested in ECG (heart waves).
> So after using a FFT what should I do.  I see some code in the Embedded
> Handbook for the FFT.  I have access to an ECG book which lists most of the
> diseases and their waveforms.  How do I program it to actually recognize
> the waveform? Thank{ in advance.

What the FFT does is take your incoming signal (amplitude vs time) and
give you a spectral "plot." Which would be a graph, if you could imagine, of
frequency on the bottom and "loudness" on the side. What you are looking
at is the "volume" of sounds at different frequencies. A normal ECG or
EEG has a distinctive pattern (less distinctive on the EEG). Certain
diseases and illnesses also have distinctive patterns. What you would
probably want to do, is have the/some patterns in memory and run some
pattern matching algorithm between your spectral plot and your database
patterns. If you are good, you might be able to identify a disease- or
at least check wether the patient is healthy or not (though a patient
could still drop dead with perfectly good heart signal- brain tumor, or
whatever ;)
This pattern matching is still more of an art form than a science- that's
why it's left to the doctors. :)
Personally, I think you're using an ant to build a condominium - a job
too big for the PIC. Don't let me discourage you though- anything can
be done if you put your mind to it.

This reply is getting a little long. I am going to end it here and then
continue on a separate message so that those who don't care for this stuff
can.

-()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()-
Rolan Yang            http://hertz.njit.edu/~rxy5310   Electrical Engineer
EraseMErxy5310spamspam_OUThertz.njit.edu                             spam_OUTkyuriusspamtsb.weschke.com
VR,ROBOTICS,FENCING,HACKING,INDUSTRIAL MUSIC,ART,EXPLOSIVES,INLINE SKATING
                   THESE ARE A FEW OF MY FAVORITE THINGS.
-()---()---()---()---()---()-----()-()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()-
4 out of 10 people are annoyed by ^ this.

1995\09\17@121105 by Rolan

flavicon
face
Labview is a Windows program that helps with A/D and some basic signal
processing. I'm not an expert with labview yet, so I really can't give you
the whole review about it. Being a hacker, I usually write up the short
programs that I need to do signal analysis and pattern matching. You might
want to try the newsgroupds comp.dsp or something like that to find out
stuff on digital signal processing. Gotta go. Write more later...

-()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()-
Rolan Yang            http://hertz.njit.edu/~rxy5310   Electrical Engineer
EraseMErxy5310RemoveMEspamhertz.njit.edu                             spam_OUTkyuriusEraseMEspamspamBeGonetsb.weschke.com
VR,ROBOTICS,FENCING,HACKING,INDUSTRIAL MUSIC,ART,EXPLOSIVES,INLINE SKATING
                   THESE ARE A FEW OF MY FAVORITE THINGS.
-()---()---()---()---()---()-----()-()---()---()---()---()---()---()---()-
4 out of 10 people are annoyed by ^ this.

1995\09\17@125746 by Greg Riddick

flavicon
face
Like Andy said, try to match a signal to a particular (let's used
EKG as an example--same as ECG) heart condtion is not trivial.  I
could go into why I think it would not make millions of dollars,
but that's a little off topic.
 The simplest way to do pattern matching in this case is to (1)
normalize an EKG to a set frequency (2) Perform a FFT (3) Perform
a "best fit" analysis with averaged samples for a particular
heart condition.
 Best fit analysis would involve comparing a sample against a
"template" for a particular condition. The tempate would be
formed by averaging *many* normalized FFT's for a particular
condition.  A FFT can produce a histogram (or bargraph) that
shows frequencies and their relative amplitudes.  The best fit
would be between the sample and template that have the fewest %
different.
 Of course, something simple like this would kind of work but
not be very effective.  I gave the example of an arrythmia, which
would show up as an irregular beat frequency. Otherwise, the
frequency components might look quit normal.  You need to do an
analysis that can recognized more than superficial features, and
it's unlike that there is anything off the shelf that's going to
meet your needs exactly.  Neural net agorithms are sometimes
considered a little flaky, but they are good at extracting
hidden features.  I read a paper a while back about their used in
discriminating sonar echoes and they were actually more effective
than their human counterparts.  You might be able to find some
off-the-shelf software packages that can help--look in the
magazine section of a large bookstore or in a library for trade
journals that might carry advertisments.  I good primer for
neural-net algorithms is the PDP Two-Volume set from MIT Press.

1995\09\17@195830 by Stuart Allman

flavicon
face
About the ECG project.

I just thought of this.  Maybe I'm just slow or something, but wouldn't
this project be similar to voice recognition?  I'm less than a novice on
that subject; but the fact that a pattern is being looked for in each
case probably means that similar techniques can be used.  Real EE's please
correct me if I'm wrong.

Stuart Allman
TakeThisOuTstudioEraseMEspamEraseMEhalcyon.com

1995\09\18@044919 by Markus Imhof

flavicon
face
Just to cut into the discussion: I don't know anything about EEG or ECG
waveforms, but you might also look into wavelet transforms (similar to
fourier, but while fourier relies on sine waves, wavelets rely on short
wave packets, and will result in a 2-d array describing frequency and
amplitude distribution of the original wave). I had a look into them once
for another type of data analysis (not on a PIC - something slightly
bigger), but had dismissed them in favor of a plain old
least-squares-method (for the time being).

Bye
 Markus

'new URL for my PIC page'
1995\09\18@061913 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
My PIC web page has moved!  Now you can find my PIC projects, tips, etc.
at:
       http://www.spies.com/~eric/pic/

For a short time the old URLs have links to the new location, but if you have
any references to my page(s) in your hotlists, bookmarks, or your own pages,
please change them to the new URL.

Thanks!
Eric

'Docs and schematic for closed caption decoder'
1995\09\18@062320 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
The schematics (in HPGL) and a theory of operation document for my PIC-based
closed caption decoder are now available in addition to the source code.
They may be downloaded from my PIC page.  The URL is now:
       http://www.spies.com/~eric/pic/

Cheers,
Eric

'identifing electrical waveforms'
1995\09\19@131653 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
       This isn't really PIC related, but you might find it interesting.

       I did a report in school, once about speech synthesizers and related
topics.  There is a fascinating treasure trove of information on this topic
that can be found in any good library called the "Benchmark Papers on
Acoustics" by Bell Labs which describes experiments which were done from
around the turn of the century until the early days of the computer age.

       One of the more awesome experiments described was an attempt to analyse
and regenerate human speech which was done in 1951.

       By then, it was understood that speech sounds were simply fundamental
tones fed through a series of filters which passed or attenuated various
harmonics.

       The Bell scientists used a spectrograph to create a graphical
representation of a spoken phrase.  They then built a device consisting of
a spinning disk with concentric bands of holes drilled in it.  When the disk
was spinning at the right speed, the bands of holes went past at rates which
corresponded to the center frequencies of their spectrograph machine.
By shining beams of light through the holes and placing photo cells in the
chopped beams, tones were generated in an amplifier which were them modulated
by sliding a clear plastic film containing a negative of the spectrogram
past at the same rate at which it had originally been recorded.  The thing
worked pretty well.

       What the scientists discovered was that information doesn't always
translate well between the audible and visual domain.  When they tried
to manually produce new spectrograms by looking at the machine-made ones and
modifying them, the playback system just made noises that were unintelligible.

       There is a set of films, now also on video tape, in which Eddy Albert
narrates a series of excellent science specials that were sponsored by the
Bell Telephone system and aired in the late fifties.  On one of them, this
experiment is briefly shown and you can actually hear the phrase
"Never kill a snake with your bear hands." plaid back.  It sounded a little
like somebody who has been in to the grape a bit and needs to dry out, but it
is quite clear considering how it was generated.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 36.7N97.4W
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group

'Docs and schematic for closed caption decoder'
1995\09\19@233016 by Dave Russell

flavicon
face
>The schematics (in HPGL) and a theory of operation document for my PIC-based
>closed caption decoder are now available in addition to the source code.
>They may be downloaded from my PIC page.  The URL is now:
>        http://www.spies.com/~eric/pic/
>
>Cheers,
>Eric
>
>

I would like to build this unit Eric, could you tell me if there is a DOS
program to uncompress the GZ format.  I have tried a program called STEALTH
without any success.  Thanks for making your PIC expertise available to
those of us just starting to use these parts.

Thanks,

Dave Russell

'p16C84 Code for VideoCrypt/D2MAC'
1995\09\28@094427 by Christopher

flavicon
face
If anybody has any code they wish to "exchange" for educational purposes..  I
have a growing library of it!  I am always looking for code with external
eeprom usage also.. twin pic, single pic, no problem!

Anything..  My interests are in VideoCrypt though with D2MAC also!


<spamatvscs27RemoveMEspamemail2.grafenwoehr.army.mil>>


'CRC program for PIC 16CXX'
1995\10\05@115052 by Falstaff
picon face
Thanks for all those who responded.  In return, here I present a
debugged and tested CRC routine for y'all.

Program to calculate CRC-16 on a 16Cxx.  The resulting CRC value is
identical to that calculated by common archive programs, such as ZOO.
Fast table-based CRC calculators for this polynomial are available
as C source.

Note that the resulting CRC has its bits reversed in comparison to
the sources posted yesterday; this is to be compatible with ZOO and
ARC and others (most of all, with the CRC16 routine in my standard
library), and also is compatible with serial transmission if the
least significant bit is sent first.

----- C source --------------------------------------------------------

unsigned CRC;

unsigned crc_16(char c)
{
  int i,j;

  for(i=0;i!=8;c>>=1,i++)
  {
     j=(c^CRC)&1;
     CRC>>=1;

     if(j)
        CRC^=0xa001;
  }
  return CRC;
}

----- 16CXX source ----------------------------------------------------

               Temp     = 0x20
               Count    = 0x21
               CRC_High = 0x22
               CRC_Low  = 0x23

loop            macro   reg,label
               decfsz  reg
               goto    label
               endm

               movlw   "h"
               call    CalcCRC
               movlw   "e"
               call    CalcCRC
               movlw   "l"
               call    CalcCRC
               movlw   "l"
               call    CalcCRC
               movlw   "o"
               call    CalcCRC
Halt            goto    Halt

               ; result=0x34d2 (you can check that with ZOO)

----- CRC subroutine --------------------------------------------------

CalcCRC         movwf   Temp                ; about 125 cycles on average
               movlw   8
               movwf   Count

CRC_Loop        movf    CRC_Low,w
               xorwf   Temp,w
               clrc
               rrf     CRC_High
               rrf     CRC_Low
               andlw   1
               bz      CRC_Skip

               movlw   0xa0
               xorwf   CRC_High
               movlw   0x01
               xorwf   CRC_Low

CRC_Skip        rrf     Temp
               loop    Count,CRC_Loop
               return

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Share And Enjoy.

Frank

"It's justice, Jim, but not as we know it."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank A. Vorstenbosch        +31-(70)-355 5241        EraseMEfalstaffKILLspamspamxs4all.nl

'Please relax for just a moment,'
1995\10\10@161305 by PETE KLAMMER

flavicon
face
If you want to complain about spam, you must do so to someone who can do
something about it.

> To be contacted by a representative to receive information on how to be
> sponsored into this extraordinary opportunity, please send email to :
> @spam@Holidays4uspamspamaol.com

Forward a copy of the original message to RemoveMEpostmasterspamspamKILLspamaol.com

> You can also write to request info by mail to :
> =ECHolidays For You=EE c/o Green Earth Enterprises
> University Center / 14 Easton Ave., Suite #228
> New Brunswick, NJ  08901

Can you think of any way to return the favor of unwanted junk mail?

> You can also Call 1-908-418-0900 and leave a message containing your Name,

This is a voicemail answering box; can anyone think of anything to do with
this?  Anybody in (908) where the call is free: please do what you can.

> This message brought to you by SpAmKiNg. FOR LOW COST BULK E-MAIL RATES CALL
> 505-821-1945. REACH OVER 6 MILLION INTERNET SUBCRIBERS IN ONE DAY.
> SATISFACTION GUARANTEED!

Call this one collect; it has a human answering it (just now, anyway).  He
probably won't accept the call, and probably will have to change to an
answering machine here, too.  That's the only SATISFACTION GUARANTEED that I
can think of at the moment.

'macros for "structured assembly" ?'
1995\10\11@024533 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
Hmm.  As a processor based on fixed length instructions and SKIP based
comparisons, the PIC should be well suited for a variations of macros
I first saw on PDP-10s 15 years or so ago.  They look like:

       skipe           ; Skip if equal to zero, or on any other condition
       %if             ; a macro
         ;code to execute if the instruction skips
         ; etc
         ;  etc
       %else           ;Another macro
         ;code to run if no skip
         ; etc
       %end

Note that %if and %else generate jumps, and %end simply defines a symbol.
the challenge with most assemblers is getting each use of the macros to
generate a separate set of symbols.

If anyone would like these, I can dig up PDP-10 and MASM versions of the
macros and see if I can convert them to the microchip PIC assembler ("it's
the one with macros right?" he asks sheepishly, fearing to admit that the
disk is still in the shipping package...)

BillW

1995\10\12@011033 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
William Chops Westfield <EraseMEbillwspamCISCO.COM> wrote:

>I can convert them to the microchip PIC assembler ("it's the one with
>macros right?" he asks sheepishly, fearing to admit that the
>disk is still in the shipping package...)

Bill:

Don't bother unpacking the disk; it's undoubtedly an old version of the
assembler.  Instead, call the Microchip BBS and download the newest
version.  I'm using 1.21.09, but I think the latest released version is
something like 1.21.00.  You'll like it much more than whatever version
you have.

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - fastfwdspamBeGonespamEraseMEix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

'Serial programmer for 16C74'
1995\10\12@102608 by Halvor Austene

flavicon
face
We have tried to modify the C84 serial programmer from AN589 for use with
16C74 (Our ambition is to make a cheap universal PIC-programmer for our
students) We have only been able to program a 16C71 with our system but not
the 16C74. Does anyone have any experience with this.
Halvor Austene
Avdelingsredsleder
Avdeling for realfag og ingenixrutdanning
Hxgskolen i Vestfold
Pb. 2243,
3103 Txnsberg
Tlf: +47 33031152 (direkte)
Tlf. +47 33031000 (sentralbord)
Fax: +47 3301103

'mpasm for windows'
1995\10\12@104510 by eyal

flavicon
face
Microchip has a program called mpasmwin.exe.
It is an mpasm assembler for 16 bit ms-windows.
The version I got is v01.20, and it support the most of the pic
microcontrolres.

There is a windows host programmer for the pic16c84 writen by
someone that work with hardware similar to to an589.


Eyal Oppenheimer
ASE R&D
Aladdin Knowledge Systems Ltd.
Tel:    +972-3-537-5795
Fax:    +972-3-537-5796
E-mail: spamBeGoneeyal@spam@spamEraseMEaladdin.co.il
WWW Home Page:  http://www.aks.com/

1995\10\12@122307 by John T

picon face
The latest version of MPASM is 1.21. If you download the .zip file from the
Microchip BBS, it will contain both the DOS and Windows versions.

John Magrane
FAE Bell Industries
408 734-8570
spamBeGone72712.2347KILLspamspamEraseMEcompuserve.com

1995\10\12@185138 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   If you download the .zip file from the Microchip BBS, it will contain
   both the DOS and Windows versions.

Grumble, grumble.  Microchip has a (rather nice) web site.  How come
all the software and stuff only seems to be available from their BBS?

BillW

'mirror for microchip bbs'
1995\10\12@223223 by Jung Pyo Hong

flavicon
face
Does anyone know if there is a mirror on internet or an ftp site
that contains the bbs information?  the www site for mchip does
not at this time mirror the bbs.

I find it most inconvenient to dial the number, go through
all the mumbo jumbo of a bbs (but I do from time to time
because it is the only way I know how to get some data).

If someone know of an internet mirror, please let me know.

Jung

1995\10\13@051706 by daviess%cs.man.ac.uk%UKACRL.bitnet

flavicon
face
>
> Does anyone know if there is a mirror on internet or an ftp site
> that contains the bbs information?  the www site for mchip does
> not at this time mirror the bbs.
>
> I find it most inconvenient to dial the number, go through
> all the mumbo jumbo of a bbs (but I do from time to time
> because it is the only way I know how to get some data).
>
> If someone know of an internet mirror, please let me know.
>
> Jung
>


ftp ftp.mchip.com
cd biz
cd mchip

There's a fair bit there, I haven't used the BBS yet, so I can't say
what mirroring is going on :-]

Glyn

--

Glyn D / http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~daviess / Computer Science 3rd year

------------------------------------------------------------------------
             "Whom computers must destroy, they must first drive mad."
                                                       -- fortune

                                    "What if everyone felt like that?"
                                                       -- Catch 22
------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Which PIC for basic remote radio freq. car starter'
1995\10\16@203433 by Patrick S. Coutu

flavicon
face
         Hi PIC'ers,
        I'm planning to build a remote control car starter. I own a
        PIC16c54 and would like to know if anyone would attempt this
        project with this particular PIC. Also what parts do I need
        for the transmitter-receiver portion of it?
                                            Thanks for your time,
                                             Patrick Coutu
                                            c82032476EraseMEspamTakeThisOuTacs.saultc.on.ca

1995\10\17@025253 by Marc Laclair

picon face
Digi-Key sells Remoto Control Circuits made by MING ENG.

the Transmitter sells for $10 and the rec. for $11.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Laclair                            |      A closed mind gathers no      |
spam_OUTlaclairRemoveMEspamprimenet.com                    |            intelligence            |
http://www.primenet.com/~laclair/       |                                    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 16 Oct 1995, Patrick S. Coutu wrote:

>           Hi PIC'ers,
>          I'm planning to build a remote control car starter. I own a
>          PIC16c54 and would like to know if anyone would attempt this
>          project with this particular PIC. Also what parts do I need
>          for the transmitter-receiver portion of it?
>                                              Thanks for your time,
>                                               Patrick Coutu
>                                              @spam@c82032476RemoveMEspamacs.saultc.on.ca
>

1995\10\17@195450 by mlk

picon face
On Mon, 16 Oct 1995, Patrick S. Coutu wrote:

>           Hi PIC'ers,
>          I'm planning to build a remote control car starter. I own a

Just a note of caution.  I once built my own alarm system for my car.  I
found out that a car electrical system is an extremely noisy
environment, especially with power windows, sunroof, etc.  Take care to
filter well.


Martin Kirk
Arizona State University
EraseMEmlk.....spamasu.edu
(602) 582-5718

'Address for ETI'
1995\10\18@115238 by Carl Connett

flavicon
face
I've heard mention of Electronics Today International and Micro
Computer Journal periodicals many times on this list.  Would someone
be so kind to send me their addresses, telephone numbers, etc.?  I
live in a small town and they are not available on the stands.  Oh,
and would you send subscription rates also?  I'm in the US.  I'm
thinking I might like to put them on my Christmas wish list.

Thank you.

Carl Connett
Manufacturing Services
DaySpring Cards
PO Box 1010
Siloam Springs, AR  72761
Phn: 501.549.9251
Fax: 501.524.8813

mhs:carlc@outreach (compuserve)
carlc@spam@spamTakeThisOuToutreach.mhs.compuserve.com (internet)

1995\10\19@035644 by Marc Laclair

picon face
Carl,
       MicroComputer Journal phone # is 1-800-853-9797 and fax # is
516-681-2926.  Subscription rates are $29.70 Eight Bi-monthly issues and
$59.40 for Eighteen bi-monthly issues.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Laclair                            |      A closed mind gathers no      |
spamBeGonelaclairspamspam_OUTprimenet.com                    |            intelligence            |
http://www.primenet.com/~laclair/       |                                    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 18 Oct 1995, Carl Connett wrote:

{Quote hidden}

'ETI Information'
1995\10\19@054323 by Neil Gillies

flavicon
face
For those interested in obtaining ETI (Electronics today international) magazine
in the US, here are the details:

US Subscriptions to -
Wise Owl Publications
4314 West 238th Street
Torrance
CA 90505

Visa/MC orders in US (310) - 375 - 6258
FAX (310) - 375 - 0548
Pacific time 9am - 9pm weekdays, 10am - 6pm weekends.

Current articles of interest to PICPeople are:

July 95 onwards - Alarm clock beginners series.
July 95 onwards - Serial driven PIC programmer (code and PC (windows) s/w
                 available from the author). Info is given to enable users of
                 other platforms to do their own thing (Mac owners take note !)
Oct 95 onwards -  PIC BASIC microcontroller. S/W and PCB is free with mag -
                 BASIC PIC chip available from author.

I presume that back issues are also available from the above address.

Hope this is of help to those "out in the sticks" :-)

1995\10\19@120935 by Neil Gillies

flavicon
face
For some reason, this message has been bounced, so here it is again -

For those interested in obtaining ETI (Electronics today international) magazine
in the US, here are the details:

US Subscriptions to -
Wise Owl Publications
4314 West 238th Street
Torrance
CA 90505

Visa/MC orders in US (310) - 375 - 6258
FAX (310) - 375 - 0548
Pacific time 9am - 9pm weekdays, 10am - 6pm weekends.

Current articles of interest to PICPeople are:

July 95 onwards - Alarm clock beginners series.
July 95 onwards - Serial driven PIC programmer (code and PC (windows) s/w
                 available from the author). Info is given to enable users of
                 other platforms to do their own thing (Mac owners take note !)
Oct 95 onwards -  PIC BASIC microcontroller. S/W and PCB is free with mag -
                 BASIC PIC chip available from author.

I presume that back issues are also available from the above address.

Hope this is of help to those "out in the sticks" :-)


'Spam-light mode for the list'
1995\11\04@131637 by Eric Brewer
flavicon
face
>Date:        Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:50:55 +0100
>From: Eric Thomas <ERICRemoveMEspamspam_OUTSEARN.SUNET.SE>
>Subject:     Re: Mail...
>To: Eric Brewer <KILLspamEricSTOPspamspamEXCELLENT.COM>
>In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:50:54 -0800 from Eric Brewer
>            <EricKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTExcellent.com>
>
>Well if you're the list owner you can change it yourself. "Send= Private"
>in the list header.
>
>  Eric

Hi fellow PICers and Jory,

I sent E-Mail to Eric Thomas, the guy who wrote the listserv software, about
our problem. His repsonse is above. Basically, we can make the list private
so only those who are subcribed can post message to the list. While this does
not prevent someone from subscribing and then SPAMming, it does mean
they have to try a little harder.

I am all for it. If you agree, send a message to Jory Bell (the list
maintainer) and
if you want, a yes/no to me. I will keep a count of number ayes/naes if
anyone cares.

cheers,
eric

1995\11\04@200005 by Daniel Mahoney

picon face
>
> I am all for it. If you agree, send a message to Jory Bell (the list
> maintainer) and
> if you want, a yes/no to me. I will keep a count of number ayes/naes if
> anyone cares.
>

Absolutely yes!  I'm getting *really* tired of this magazine
subscription shit.  It's getting so old, I don't even bother
to mail-bomb the people involved any more.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Mahoney                                          Product Manager
RemoveMEdmahoneyspamspamBeGonenetcom.com                       Comarco Wireless Technologies
Riverside, CA                                                Irvine, CA
(909) 360-3647 (home)                                    (714) 450-4076

1995\11\05@180036 by John Payson

flavicon
face
> I sent E-Mail to Eric Thomas, the guy who wrote the listserv software, about
> our problem. His repsonse is above. Basically, we can make the list private
> so only those who are subcribed can post message to the list. While this does
> not prevent someone from subscribing and then SPAMming, it does mean
> they have to try a little harder.
>
> I am all for it. If you agree, send a message to Jory Bell (the list
> maintainer) and
> if you want, a yes/no to me. I will keep a count of number ayes/naes if
> anyone cares.

[sorry this is going to the whole list]

I'm in favor of making the list private, provided that those who are not
on the list receive a "helpful" bounce message [i.e. they get a message which,
if they actually read it, will tell them how to subscribe].

1995\11\06@075123 by Eric Brewer

flavicon
face
>Date:        Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:50:55 +0100
>From: Eric Thomas <spamBeGoneERICspamEraseMESEARN.SUNET.SE>
>Subject:     Re: Mail...
>To: Eric Brewer <.....EricspamEXCELLENT.COM>
>In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:50:54 -0800 from Eric Brewer
>            <@spam@Ericspamspam_OUTExcellent.com>
>
>Well if you're the list owner you can change it yourself. "Send= Private"
>in the list header.
>
>  Eric

Hi fellow PICers and Jory,

I sent E-Mail to Eric Thomas, the guy who wrote the listserv software, about
our problem. His repsonse is above. Basically, we can make the list private
so only those who are subcribed can post message to the list. While this does
not prevent someone from subscribing and then SPAMming, it does mean
they have to try a little harder.

I am all for it. If you agree, send a message to Jory Bell (the list
maintainer) and
if you want, a yes/no to me. I will keep a count of number ayes/naes if
anyone cares.

cheers,
eric

1995\11\06@145525 by adrian

flavicon
picon face
> >   I m wondering if there are any potential disadvantages to making the list
> >   private?
> >  I can t think of any. Does any one else have any ideas?
> >
> >
>
> But of course, do you post from multiple machines?  Most private lists
> I've seen only allow posts from the subscribed address.
>
> Roger (I know, the list knows me as RemoveMEbooksspam.....mis1.mainline.com when in actuality
>        I am spam_OUTbooksTakeThisOuTspamrtssec1.dms.state.fl.us, or even EraseMEbooksEraseMEspamspam_OUTmail.dms.state.fl.us,
>         both the same machine and I'm not sure the machine uses the same
>         one all the time.)
>

Err.. yes, I am on as spammicrochip.....spamspam_OUTrhanna.demon.co.uk, but I post
from spam_OUTadrian.....spamspamBeGonerhanna.demon.co.uk and would not want piclist email
going to my "adrian" address as it would clutter my mailbox.

I suspect private would therefore cause me a problem.

--
_
(_) _| _ . _  _   Tel +44 973 222257
( )(_|(  |(_|| )  Fax UK 0500 222258                    E&OE

'Display For LCD Matrix'
1995\11\08@182405 by John.P.Hollingshead

flavicon
face
I'm looking for code, pinouts etc for LCD matrix displays.

Also, I'm looking for some good sources for the displays.  What I
have in mind, is for using a pic 16c57 for taking the 2of 8 binarie
from a cd22202e dtmfdecode chip, and outputing to a serial e-prom and
to output to the display.  It then must be able to access the eeprom
to get readback buffers.

Also, I'd like to find out how to use a pic to output to rs-232c and
parrellel.

any help would be appreciated.


John P. Hollinghsead ]I[  KB5SXH
President Texas Data Systems
Pearland, TX
STOPspamavdealEraseMEspamhollingshead.com
(713) 485-0394
Fax: (713) 485-8223

'Display For LCD Matrix (fwd)'
1995\11\09@002251 by David G. Schmidt

flavicon
face
Check out the Sept 95 issue of Popular Electronics.  Terry Weeder of
Weeder technologies has done an article and sells such a unit cheaply,
kit form.  He has
interfaced a PIC to a serial EEprom and an lcd display with scrollback
buffers.  This issue is within the last year.  He used a 4 bit binary
output DTMF chip, but his code can be modified for your 2 of 8 output
chip.  BTW, does the chip have a selector for 4 bit binary out or 2 of 8?

--------------------------------------------
( Dave Schmidt       DSchmidt Technologies )
( KILLspamdschmidtspam_OUTspamspamBeGonerain.org     Ventura, CA        )
( Own an FME? ->finger RemoveMEdschmidtspam_OUTspamRemoveMErain.org   )
--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 John.P.HollingsheadspamEraseMEHAPPY.FIRSTNETHOU.COM wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1995\11\09@131339 by Joe Callahan

flavicon
face
For those of us that don't have access to Popular Electronics, could you
or someone post the address and/or phone number of "Weeder Technologies"?

Regards, Joe Callahan
spamBeGonecallahanKILLspamspam@spam@az.com
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, David G. Schmidt wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1995\11\09@142134 by David G. Schmidt

flavicon
face
When I get home from work this evening I'll post his address and phone
number.  Weeder Tech. also has a bunch of other PIC type kits and does PIC
consulting work also

--------------------------------------------
( Dave Schmidt       DSchmidt Technologies )
( spamdschmidtEraseMEspamEraseMErain.org     Ventura, CA        )
( Own an FME? ->finger dschmidtKILLspamspamRemoveMErain.org   )
--------------------------------------------

> or someone post the address and/or phone number of "Weeder Technologies"?
>
> > Check out the Sept 95 issue of Popular Electronics.  Terry Weeder of
> > Weeder technologies has done an article and sells such a unit cheaply,

'About HEX format'
1995\11\10@031204 by SONY-OD

flavicon
face
On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Rick Miller wrote

>I think Parallax's docs refer to "IHEX8M"...
>Where do I get details on this file format?

This is the detail of HEX format, this format is also produced by the MASM
Microchip's assembler.

Philippe. <spamBeGonesonyedeKILLspamspamiway.fr>

{-----------------------------------------------------------------------------}
(* (HEX) INTEL 8/MDS Format:                                                 *)
(*   : 10 0010 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF F0         *)
(*     |    |   - type de bloc 01 = fin                           |          *)
(*     |   address                                        total sum          *)
(*     number of byte                               two's complement         *)
(*  : 00 0000 01 FF  <- end of txt                                           *)
{-----------------------------------------------------------------------------}
(* (HEX) INTEL HEX32 Format: (idem Hex )                                     *)
(*   : 10 0010 00 LO HI LO HI LO FI LO HI LO HI LO HI LO HI LO HI xx         *)
(*                0---- 1---- 2---- 3---- 4---- 5---- 6---- 7----            *)

'Anyone using PIC for D2MAC'
1995\11\10@064658 by Walter Crauwels

flavicon
face
Date    10/11/95
Subject Anyone using PIC for D2MAC
From    Walter Crauwels
To      Pic listserver

                     Subject:                              Time:  12:39 PM
 OFFICE MEMO         Anyone using PIC for D2MAC            Date:  10/11/95
Hi , I heard that it is possible to use single Pic (16c84) or dual pic
Master-slave to decode D2MAC channels

Has anyone got the code`s for it ?

Pse reply

'Programming sockets for SOIC cased PICS'
1995\11\10@143202 by David G. Schmidt

flavicon
face
Anyone know of a vendor that makes a ZIF type socket for SOIC cased
PICs?  I own a Parallax programmer and want to save some $$ and make my
own adaptor boards.  I need 18 and 28 pin sockets.
Thanks


--------------------------------------------
( Dave Schmidt       DSchmidt Technologies )
( spam_OUTdschmidtKILLspamspamspam_OUTrain.org     Ventura, CA        )
( Own an FME? ->finger spamBeGonedschmidtspamrain.org   )
--------------------------------------------

1995\11\11@013648 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
David G. Schmidt <RemoveMEdschmidtKILLspamspamEraseMERAIN.ORG> wrote:

>Anyone know of a vendor that makes a ZIF type socket for SOIC cased
>PICs?

Dave:

Try Emulation Technologies (408 982-0660) or my new favorite, EDI
Corporation (702 735-4997).

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - EraseMEfastfwdspamBeGonespamTakeThisOuTix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

'Anyone using PIC for D2MAC'
1995\11\11@070333 by tobias

flavicon
face
At
>Hi , I heard that it is possible to use single Pic (16c84) or dual pic
>Master-slave to decode D2MAC channels

Everything is possible,
Try http://www.paranoia.com/~defiant/index.htm

tobias

'New Resource for List'
1995\11\11@215818 by sureshot

flavicon
face
                 FREE Long Distance for Life ??

      Learn how to ZERO OUT your Long Distance Telephone Bill.

                    *** EXPLOSIVE PROGRAM ***

             Will EARN you $13,700.00 plus monthly!!!!

          CALL our toll FREE hotline TODAY - DON'T DELAY!

                   1(800) 684-8253 Ext.7283

'Looking for a PIC tool archive...'
1995\11\13@094358 by John Safrit

flavicon
face
       Recently I found a site with a collection of home-brew PIC
programmers and tools, many involving the use of the pip-02 software
for programming.  The file was called "picstuff.zip" but I am unable
to relocate it.  Can anyone point me in the right direction???
                       Thanks,
                       John Safrit
PS   Has anyone had any luck with the COM84 serial port PIC programmer???

+<><><><><><><><><><><><><>+<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>+
|    John L. Safrit, Jr.   |    -- Make lots of money       \             |
| Hardware Design Engineer |    -- Enjoy the work            >> Choose 2  |
|      (804) 978-5769      |    -- Operate within the law   /             |
+< EraseMEjohn.safritspamspamTakeThisOuTcho.ge.com >+<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>+

'GNU Development Tools for PICs'
1995\11\13@125835 by Rick Miller

flavicon
face
Hi!

Well, I decided to start a mailing-list dedicated to writing development
tools for the PIC16C84 (and other PICs too) which will be freely available
in CopyLeft'd C source code.

The first priorities of the list will include:

 o Improving Timo Rossi's assembler to fully handle forward references.
   Probably, we'll need to add a "pass zero" to build a symbol table.
=20
 o Converting John Favata's compiler to output PIC assembly instructions
   instead of Parallax's pseudo-8051 code.  It may be best to follow
   John's strategy, but the assembly code will probably need some
   optimization once it's converted.

The mailing list charter is included below.  Please e-mail me personally
if you'd like to be included in this mailing list.

---------------
                              The GNUPIC Charter

      This is the charter for the "gnupic@spam@spamKILLspamdigalogsys.com" mailing list.
                        Copyright =A9 1995 Rick Miller
                            <@spam@rickEraseMEspamdigalogsys.com>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
The GNUPIC mailing list is provided as a forum for those wishing to program
Microchip PIC microcontrollers using tools which are freely available under=
the
GNU CopyLeft.

At first, this will mean developing such tools that may not already exist i=
n
freely available source such as a simulator, linker, librarian, or compiler=
s
for languages other than C. Then, refinement and distribution of these tool=
s
will be the main goal.

Due to the nature of the expected audience, the GNUPIC mailing list will be
targeted primarily at those wishing to use the PIC16C84. This is the only P=
IC
which Microchip makes with EEPROM program memory for in-circuit programming=
.
It's ideal for those who just want to try out microcontroller programming w=
ith
as little initial investment as possible.

Hopefully, we'll produce a top-notch development environment for the PIC16C=
84
which can be compiled for just about any platform.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
Copyright =A9 1995 Rick Miller
<KILLspamrickTakeThisOuTspamTakeThisOuTdigalogsys.com>

Rick Miller, Design Engineer  (and local "Internet Guy")
Digalog Systems, Inc.         <rick@spam@spam.....digalogsys.com>
3180 S. 166th St.             <Rick.MillerspamLinux.org>
New Berlin, WI  53151  USA    +1 414 797 8000 x-228

'Programming sockets for SOIC cased PICS'
1995\11\13@125837 by Michael Robin

flavicon
face
> David G. Schmidt <spamBeGonedschmidtRemoveMEspamEraseMERAIN.ORG> wrote:
>
> >Anyone know of a vendor that makes a ZIF type socket for SOIC cased
> >PICs?

We make all these types of adapters:

44-pin PLCC (64,65,74)
40-pin ZIF (62,64,65,73,74)
18/28-pin ZIF (5x,62x,61,71,84)
18/28-pin SOIC (5x,62x,61,71,84)
20/28-pin SSOP (5x,62x)

We also have a large variety and supply of PIC chips.

Parallax, Inc.
(916) 624-8333

Thank You
       Michael J. Robin

'GNU Development Tools for PICs'
1995\11\13@145600 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
>
> Hi!
>
> Well, I decided to start a mailing-list dedicated to writing development
> tools for the PIC16C84 (and other PICs too) which will be freely available
> in CopyLeft'd C source code.

Cool! Add me to it.

{Quote hidden}

I'd like to add a couple of things to the table. I'm a computer science
professor in Computer Science at Clark Atlanta University (obviously in
Atlanta ;-) Anyway for the last 3 years I've been teaching a class on the
development of Computer Systems Software. We focus on assembler and an
introduction to compilers including projects. Since we professor types
are obligated to at least have a cursory understanding of the projects ;-)
my students and myself have put in quite a lot of work into said projects.
Over the last 3 semesters we have been targeting PICs. The results:

- A fully functional 16C84 assembler. It's one pass and does forward
references. It currently doesn't output the symbol table for linking
purposes but is easy enough to add.

- The foundation to a high level language called NPC (nano-pseudo-C). NPC
strips most of the functionality from C and leaves just the absolute
minimum. It adds some keywords (ENDIF, ENDWHILE, CALL) to simplify the
parsing process. It does most of the C operators and adds a couple
(Like direct bit manipulation and direct assignment of addresses to
variables). It only has pointers and chars right now. I had been targeting
the 17C42 and was about 30% finished with the code generation. It uses
flex for a front end (any GNU problems there?) and is recursive descent
(Didn't want to confuse the students with bison). The heart of it is
the infix-postfix parser that makes code generation straightforward. This
semester I'm splitting the project in two adding a lower half interpreter.

It's all in C and should be no problem to release under GNU. Runs under
Linux right now.

Anyway put me on the list and let me know if there is anything I can do
to help.

BAJ

1995\11\14@045016 by Matthew Rowe

flavicon
face
> Well, I decided to start a mailing-list dedicated to writing development
> tools for the PIC16C84 (and other PICs too) which will be freely available
> in CopyLeft'd C source code.
> At first, this will mean developing such tools that may not already
> exist in freely available source such as a simulator, linker,
> librarian, or compilers for languages other than C. Then,
> refinement and distribution of these tools will be the main goal.
>
> Due to the nature of the expected audience, the GNUPIC mailing list will be
> targeted primarily at those wishing to use the PIC16C84. This is the only
> PIC which Microchip makes with EEPROM program memory for in-circuit
> programming.
> It's ideal for those who just want to try out microcontroller programming
> with as little initial investment as possible.
>
> Hopefully, we'll produce a top-notch development environment for the
> PIC16C84 which can be compiled for just about any platform.

Sounds great but I see no mention of a programmer.
This is fairly key in the development environment isn't it?

/\/\att.

1995\11\14@080205 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
> > Hopefully, we'll produce a top-notch development environment for the
> > PIC16C84 which can be compiled for just about any platform.
>
> Sounds great but I see no mention of a programmer.
> This is fairly key in the development environment isn't it?

Not in this instance. Since the initialize target is the 16C84 and there
are several designeds out for programming it. The COM84 programmer is
quite effective.

Right now I'm thinking about putting together an interpretive environment
a-la the BASIC Stamp. Like the stamp the program would be saved in a
serial EEPROM. Unlike the stamp I'd like to add a 4 chip static RAM
circuit for storing the program and data like the 8031. On Boot up
the PIC loads the RAM from the EEPROM and off it goes. I plan to use
a separate serial based loader to load up the EEPROM thus removing the
need for the board to have to load it.

It's just in the thought phase right now...

But the bottom line is that we have programmers but very little in the
way of programming tools that are cross platform. I use DOS/Windows once
every fifth blue moon. So Unix/serial based tools are top priority.

BAJ

1995\11\14@095200 by Rick Miller

flavicon
face
On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Matthew Rowe wrote:
[...]
> > Hopefully, we'll produce a top-notch development environment for the
> > PIC16C84 which can be compiled for just about any platform.
>
> Sounds great but I see no mention of a programmer.
> This is fairly key in the development environment isn't it?
>

Um... yup.  That gets mentioned later, where I beg and plead for
someone to come up with the code to drive an RS-232 port for the
"PicBlaster" el-cheapo '84 programmer.  :-)

Seriously though, you're absolutely right.  It doesn't do me much
good if I can't download the code I've developed without booting DOS.

Doing code for parallel-port programmers is fairly straightforward
on IBM-style PCs... but I'd rather use the RS232 port, since more
folks are likely to have 'em, and the programmer is really easy to
build.

So, Matt, should I count you in on the gnupic list?

Rick Miller, Design Engineer  (and local "Internet Guy")
Digalog Systems, Inc.         <rickRemoveMEspamdigalogsys.com>
3180 S. 166th St.             <KILLspamRick.MillerspamspamKILLspamLinux.org>
New Berlin, WI  53151  USA    +1 414 797 8000 x-228

1995\11\14@103223 by Matthew Rowe

flavicon
face
> > > Hopefully, we'll produce a top-notch development environment for the
> > > PIC16C84 which can be compiled for just about any platform.
> >
> > Sounds great but I see no mention of a programmer.
> > This is fairly key in the development environment isn't it?
> Not in this instance. Since the initialize target is the 16C84 and there
> are several designeds out for programming it. The COM84 programmer is
> quite effective.


Absolutely! It's the only thing I use but it's certainly not cross
platform.

> I plan to use a separate serial based loader to load up the EEPROM
> thus removing the need for the board to have to load it.

You're going to go to a different machine to load up? I don't follow.


> It's just in the thought phase right now...
>
> But the bottom line is that we have programmers but very little in the
> way of programming tools that are cross platform.

We don't have cross platform programmers. COM84 is completely tied to
DOS - it won't even work in Windows.

/\/\att.

1995\11\14@104919 by Rick Miller

flavicon
face
On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Matthew Rowe wrote:
[...]
> We don't have cross platform programmers. COM84 is completely tied to
> DOS - it won't even work in Windows.

COM84 works fine in a DOS-Window under Windows'95...

Rick Miller, Design Engineer  (and local "Internet Guy")
Digalog Systems, Inc.         <@spam@rickspamBeGonespamspamdigalogsys.com>
3180 S. 166th St.             <KILLspamRick.MillerTakeThisOuTspamTakeThisOuTLinux.org>
New Berlin, WI  53151  USA    +1 414 797 8000 x-228

1995\11\14@174612 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
>
> > > > Hopefully, we'll produce a top-notch development environment for the
> > > > PIC16C84 which can be compiled for just about any platform.
> > >
> > > Sounds great but I see no mention of a programmer.
> > > This is fairly key in the development environment isn't it?
> > Not in this instance. Since the initialize target is the 16C84 and there
> > are several designeds out for programming it. The COM84 programmer is
> > quite effective.
>
>
> Absolutely! It's the only thing I use but it's certainly not cross
> platform.

Why can't it be. Doesn't Unix and MAC platforms have the ability to
fiddle twiddle the bits so that it can program?

>
> > I plan to use a separate serial based loader to load up the EEPROM
> > thus removing the need for the board to have to load it.
>
> You're going to go to a different machine to load up? I don't follow.

Call it an intelligent cable. RS-232 serial that attaches to a machine
and a PIC on the other. The PIC talks standard ASCII to the serial port
and has an interface to program the serial EEPROM. The programmer board
contains a MAX-232 type device and a UART. Once the "cable" is detached
from the board, the on-board PIC is free to load the program from the
serial EEPROM and execute it. This provides more of the 1K space
for the interpreter for the on-board PIC and relieves it from the duty
of having to communicate serially to the programming system. When you're
talking about a 18 pin part, 2 pins is important.

Of course this is a chicken and egg problem because you need two
programmed PICS to do the job. I have a PICSTART so that isn't a
real big deal to me. And if you have 16C84's then the COM84 can do the
job the first time then you can use whatever you like to do your development.

But once you have those programmed PICS downloading programs are simple.
Also as long as you have the same interface to the serial EEPROM you can use
whatever PIC you like as the on-board one. Just program the interpreter
into the PIC and load the program into the serial EEPROM just like the
stamp.

See I'm trying to get this system for my students so that they can
load their programs to the system dozens, hundreds, or thousands of times.
And I need it to run from a Linux box.

>
>
> > It's just in the thought phase right now...
> >
> > But the bottom line is that we have programmers but very little in the
> > way of programming tools that are cross platform.
>
> We don't have cross platform programmers. COM84 is completely tied to
> DOS - it won't even work in Windows.

Well then my interpreter can resolve this by making the COM84 used once
and then you can directly connect it to whatever you like from then on.

How much would one spend on a 3 chip circuit with a preprogrammed PIC that
simply reads a serial port and flips bits and allows for precise timing on
the flipping of those bits? This is the real piece of technology that is
needed to bridge the gap. David Tait attempted this with his MIPI stuff
and it is the right idea. It tried to eliminate the need for something
to be programmed. But it's tough to do simply. Maybe we need to revisit
that idea...

BAJ

'forwarded request for help !!!!'
1995\11\14@205801 by Newfound Electronics

flavicon
face
I have forwarded this request to the piclist where it belongs and informed
the requester how to subscribe etc. Can someone please help as I am not able
to keep up with it all...

Thanks

Jim


{Quote hidden}

1995\11\14@230951 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Dion Heskett (RemoveMEdionhspamspamspamBeGonefastnet.co.uk) wrote Jim an email asking:

>>sorry to ask you this ... i am trying to program the data eprom area
>>with the code below should this work ?? if not could yo point me in the
>>right direction as i am new to pics and programing in assembler
>>many thanks..

Jim (spamBeGonenewfound.....spamspam_OUTNE.COM.AU), who's apparently too busy peddling his prototype
PIC programmers to answer his own e-mail, wrote:

>I have forwarded this request to the piclist where it belongs and informed
>the requester how to subscribe etc. Can someone please help as I am not
>able to keep up with it all...

   Dion:

   There are a couple of things I'd do differently, but your code should
   work just fine.

   I'm a little puzzled by your need to have the code checked; it should be
   trivially easy to see whether it works or not just by burning it into a
   16C84 and trying it.  Are you having trouble with it?

   -Andy

--
Andrew Warren - spamfastfwdEraseMEspamEraseMEix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

1995\11\15@000325 by John Payson

flavicon
face
>     There are a couple of things I'd do differently, but your code should
>     work just fine.
>
>     I'm a little puzzled by your need to have the code checked; it should be
>     trivially easy to see whether it works or not just by burning it into a
>     16C84 and trying it.  Are you having trouble with it?

One thing I've found can be helpful when reading from the 16C84's EEPROM is
to point the FSR at EECTL so that it's not necessary to toggle RB0 on and off
for each bit.  I don't know if this allows the sequence:

 bsf   IND,0
 movf  EEDATA,w

to happen without a cycle between [I had something else to do in that time
slot] but it's still a useful trick to know.

'GNU Development Tools for PICs'
1995\11\15@044530 by Matthew Rowe

flavicon
face
> > > are several designeds out for programming it. The COM84 programmer is
> > > quite effective.
> > Absolutely! It's the only thing I use but it's certainly not cross
> > platform.
>
> Why can't it be. Doesn't Unix and MAC platforms have the ability to
> fiddle twiddle the bits so that it can program?

No reason it can't be. The point is it isn't. I don't have the know
how to write one myself.


> See I'm trying to get this system for my students so that they can
> load their programs to the system dozens, hundreds, or thousands of times.
> And I need it to run from a Linux box.

Thats where we differ then. I'm more interested in the electronics
side and don't want the overhead of a complete development system
tied to every PIC. (And I prefer programming in PIC assembly language
which is completely portable.)


/\/\att.

'Looking for a PIC tool archive...'
1995\11\15@064423 by Scott Stephens

picon face
>PS   Has anyone had any luck with the COM84 serial port PIC programmer???

Yes, works for me, most of the time.

'forwarded request for help !!!!'
1995\11\15@081023 by Newfound Electronics

flavicon
face
>Dion Heskett (RemoveMEdionhspamspamKILLspamfastnet.co.uk) wrote Jim an email asking:
>
>>>sorry to ask you this ... i am trying to program the data eprom area
>>>with the code below should this work ?? if not could yo point me in the
>>>right direction as i am new to pics and programing in assembler
>>>many thanks..
>
>Jim (newfoundRemoveMEspamRemoveMENE.COM.AU), who's apparently too busy peddling his prototype
>PIC programmers to answer his own e-mail, wrote:

Not so. I answered this email thus:

Dion,

You are far better off sticking this sort of stuff on the PIC LIST. This
gives people who can and are willing to help the chance to feel spiritual
and all warm and fuzzy inside. You then don't need to be worried that you
are inposing on someone else etc.


Not on the PIC LIST?

Send to .....listservspamspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

subscribe piclist

You will  get a document telling how to upload requests for help etc.

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful, I just don't have the 1/2 hour it would take.

Get back to me if you really get stuck but meantime I will forward the
message to the piclist and if you subscribe quickly the answer will be there
waiting for you!

Regards,

Jim

.....................................................................

Today,  I spent time forwarding my long reply to Martin Nilssons reply on
the "master-slave thread" to interested people. I thought it too long and of
little interest to the general PICLIST. I also forwarded other parts of the
thread as requested. Its great to receive an email back that  simply says
"Thanks."

Andrew, I find your implication to be offensive. Your aggressiveness serves
only to make others wary of you and perhaps this is the point of it.

Perhaps now you'll ensure everything you offer is exemplary and purely
alturistic, no self promotion however subtle. I guess mate, you're willing
to be the high mark for all of us to obtain to.

As for "peddling my prototype programmers" well Andrew,  I do make it known
that I got them, and I also promote my understanding of "quality issues"
regarding programmers. I have never sold a programmer or anything else to
someone who I genuinely believed would be better off buying someone elses
product. Yes I have suggested competing designs when it was in the enquirers
best interests. My real product is my sense of ethics and quality and fair
play. (I guess in your country that makes me a loser.)

If it appears otherwise its just my indignation. I don't enjoy hearing from
people who spent 200% - 300% more on a programmer that does nothing but the
bear basics and they want my software to work with their programmer etc. If
anything,  I have let them down by not jumping up and down hard enough. I am
happy for all the pros and cons of programmers to be open and people can
make up their own minds.

What is it you are peddling? Your own credibility??? How is your personal
attack on me in anyone's best interest? What do you know of me that gives
you the right to attack me as you have?

Perhaps its time for you to rethink your agro. Though I know only of one,
I'm sure there are other's whom refrain from offering a counter point to you
on the piclist and MCHIPBBS to avoid occuring  your wrath. Something you are
proud of?

I do not believe I was unreasonable in forwarding the query to the PIC LIST
especially as I was pepared to forward any replies back to Dion  in case
they were missed by Him/her. Andrew, have you asked Dion if she/he feels I
let him/her down by replying as I did?. (Sorry Dion, these days it's just
not safe to assume a persons sex, oops, I mean gender, by their name.)


My apoligies for this to all others, I stop now though I feel I haven't yet
begun!


Jim

'GNU Development Tools for PICs'
1995\11\15@101353 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
> > See I'm trying to get this system for my students so that they can
> > load their programs to the system dozens, hundreds, or thousands of times.
> > And I need it to run from a Linux box.
>
> Thats where we differ then. I'm more interested in the electronics
> side and don't want the overhead of a complete development system
> tied to every PIC. (And I prefer programming in PIC assembly language
> which is completely portable.)

I haven't made myself completely clear. This system is for rapid
prototype development work. Right now while doing development there
are a few options each with their own "quirks".

1) 16C84 - Probably the best of the bunch. The EEPROM allows for in-circuit
programming and quick turnarounds. However the part is I/O and speed limited.
2) Simulator - The MPSIM software works pretty well but you're locked into
PC land to use it. I've effectively used it under the DOS emulator with Linux.
But it was a lot of additional setup.
3) ICE - Expensive. 'Nuff said.
4) EPROM based PICS - The windows parts are expensive and the programmers are
all PC based. The turnaround time is slow.
5) BASIC stamp - going in the right direction. However running from a serial
EEPROM slows everything down immensly. And development can only be done from
a PC based platform.
6) 17C42 - Fast, runs from external memory, sufficient I/O, built in UART. But
have you priced these puppies lately? Also for the external memory interface
you need 4 to 7 additional chips. Lastly the standard programmers don't do
the 17C42.

The ideal part would be a 16CXX or 17CXX part with a UART and 33 I/O pins
that runs at 20-25 Mhz and is EEPROM programmable in-circuit. But it doesn't
exist and probably will not ever. Discussions on the list from Microchip has
made it clear that their big customers need ultra cheap one time programmable
parts where each penny makes a big difference. They can afford PC based
environments and ICE for doing their work.

So for the rest of us, that is hobby and one-off folks, Our issues of easy
programmability, multi-platform development, and more I/O, and of course the
usual ones of more speed and less power and inconsistent with the goals
of the folks who pays Microchip's bills.

As for the assembly vs. high level language debate, I think the issues have
been re-hashed enough. Both require tools and as long as the tools are
available the choice shouldn't matter. My goal is to produce a high level
front end with multiple back-ends just like GCC. By having an assembly
back-end and a interpreter back-end I can develop with the interpreter and
once the code is working correctly then I can compile it into native code
and blow the part.

The way I see it I'd rather build one interpreter that I can blow into
a OTP then use that OTP interpreter for development in a HLL than to have to
pull a EPROM chip over and over and over for development in assembly.

I guess I need to explain where I've been in terms of SBC development. I
cut my teeth on motorola stuff starting with 6800 stuff and quickly moving
to 68K's. Through experience I found that the two most essential tools
for good development was a good compiler and a good on-board loader/monitor.
At the top of the heap (about 3 years ago) I had a 68340 with a self written
serial file system that was self hosting a C compiler, linker, and assembler.
Then I ran into PICs and all that changed.

I spent the first year trying the learn how to program the danged things. The
Microchip released the 16C84 and the programming specs for everything. In
addition their really cool seminars supplied PICSTARTS 16's for a reasonable
price. But I'm a Linux guy so their tools weren't real interesting to me until
one of my students ran some tests and figured out that everything ran under
the DOS emulator. That helped. Good thing it was serial based programmer.

But the process sucks. Pull the chip, program the chip, test the chip,
repeat. We broke at least one pin off 4 different 16C84's. You have to
be there to do development. With my 68K board hanging off a network I
could do development anywhere I could telnet from. And the kicker was the
16C84 project we were working on was serial based (and I got some good
serial tools from my student) so there was no need to hover over the board
except for the development process.

BTW I also have a special need. I have a class of twenty students that need
to program a board. I'm pretty sure that even in-circuit programming can
withstand that assult.

So as a first attempt I've built a board with a 17C42 with 64K of RAM. The
RAM is loaded using a 16C84 with my student's serial routines. It has some
glitches but is on the right track.

The other thing is the language issue. Consider this: if I have a high
level language I can run the same program on a PIC 16C84, a PIC 17C42,
and a motorola 68K. I can scale the I/O, memory, and speed to match the
particular application I need. Also if I interpret the HLL then once I
have the interpreter solid I can blow it into a OTP and be sure that
part is usable. I can test with interpretation and compile for production.
But if speed isn't the primary issue there's no reason to switch from the
interpreter once it works. This requires some semi-permanent storage.
Hence the serial EEPROM.

Now for development part. I want the following features:

- In-circuit
- Multiplatform
- fast loading and turnaround
- fast execution
- Circuit continues to function even when detached from development
 environment.
- Minimal additional circuitry

Note that many of these are at cross purposes. To support the first two
it requires more circuitry. For the circuit to continue to function
after programming you need EEPROM. for less circuitry you want serial
EEPROM. But that slows the execution.

So there's a bunch of tradoffs. But the one thing that's clear is that
the loader and the target need not be the same. The serial part and
the programmer can be on one board that stays attached to the PC or workstation
and the target can then be separated. Plus the "programmer" can be used
with different targets.

So the programmer would probably consist of a UART, a MAX232, and a programmed
16C84. A DB9 or 10 pin dual header would connect the target to the board.
The programmer's primary job is to program the serial EEPROM on the target.
The programmer holds the RESET/MCLR of the target in reset during programming.

The target's job is to interpret the code in the EEPROM. For speed a target
can transfer the code to a faster device (like a RAM) before executing. Targets
that can execute native code certainly can do so. Some possible targets:

1) A 16C84 and a serial EEPROM. Just like a stamp.
2) A 17C42 that's programmed with an interpreter and a EEPROM loader. It
can interpret in single chip mode or interpret or run native code that's
loaded into RAM.
3) 683XX products that can either interpret or run native code that's loaded
via the BDM port from the EEPROM using a PIC.

The list goes on and on...

I think it's a very powerful and flexible concept.

BTW the chicken and egg problem I'm working on too. How to program without
having a programmed chip. David Tait has given me some good ideas.

Comments?

BAJ

1995\11\15@114740 by Mike Goelzer

flavicon
face
Please add me to the new list.

-mike
--
Mike Goelzer
<@spam@mgoelzerspamus.net>

'forwarded request for help !!!!'
1995\11\15@131901 by nigelg

flavicon
picon face
In message <spamBeGone9511150416.aa01715RemoveMEspampunt-4.mail.demon.net> RemoveMEPICLIST.....spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
writes:
{Quote hidden}

I think this code was originally posted in 'alt.satellite.tv.crypt', it was
in response to questions on how to program EEPROM using a PICSTART. The full
code in question was for using two 16C84's for decoding D2-MAC satellite
transmissions. The poster of this code got over the PICSTART problem by
running a program that wrote the required data to EEPROM, then you write the
main program to the PIC. Probably he's having problems actually decoding the
scrambled programs, however a number of people have replyed to the original
posting saying that this method of EEPROM programming works fine.

Nigel.

         /----------------------------------------------------------\
         | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : spamnigelgspamspam.....lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
         | Lower Pilsley   |                                        |
         | Chesterfield    |                                        |
         | England         |                                        |
         \----------------------------------------------------------/

1995\11\15@161102 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Jim (RemoveMEnewfoundEraseMEspamTakeThisOuTNE.COM.AU), who doesn't have time to answer his own e-mail,
but has PLENTY of time to post messages like the following, wrote:

>Andrew, I find your implication to be offensive.

   WHAT implication?  You SAID, yourself, that you didn't have time to
   answer the guy's question.  You can't have it both ways, Jim.

>Your aggressiveness serves only to make others wary of you and
>perhaps this is the point of it.

   Or maybe it's just an efficient way to keep the list's signal-to-noise
   ratio high.

>Perhaps now you'll ensure everything you offer is exemplary and purely
>alturistic, no self promotion however subtle. I guess mate, you're willing
>to be the high mark for all of us to obtain to.

   Go read through all the messages I've posted to the PICLIST and the
   Microchip BBS... There are over a thousand of them, so it may take you a
   while.  Not ONE includes any self-promotion, "mate".

>As for "peddling my prototype programmers" well Andrew,  I do make it known
>that I got them

       No kidding.

>I don't enjoy hearing from people who spent 200% - 300% more on a
>programmer that does nothing but the bear basics and they want my software
>to work with their programmer etc. If anything, I have let them down by not
>jumping up and down hard enough. I am happy for all the pros and cons of
>programmers to be open and people can make up their own minds.

   I must have missed something... What does this have to do with your
   admitted inability to organize your time well enough to allow you to
   answer your personal e-mail?

>What is it you are peddling? Your own credibility??? How is your personal
>attack on me in anyone's best interest? What do you know of me that gives
>you the right to attack me as you have?

   For those of you who missed my "personal attack", here it is:

       >Jim (@spam@newfoundspamspamTakeThisOuTNE.COM.AU), who's apparently too busy peddling
       >his prototype PIC programmers to answer his own e-mail, wrote:

   Strong stuff, huh?

   As it turns out, Jim DID answer his e-mail, writing:

       >I'm sorry I can't be more helpful, I just don't have the
       >1/2 hour it would take.

   Funny, Jim... It only took me about 5 minutes.

>Perhaps its [SIC] time for you to rethink your agro [SIC]. Though I know
>only of one, I'm sure there are other's [SIC} whom [SIC] refrain from
>offering a counter point [SIC} to you on the piclist and MCHIPBBS to avoid
>occuring [SIC} your wrath.  Something you are proud of?

   No, but I AM proud of my command of the English language.

>I do not believe I was unreasonable in forwarding the query to the PIC LIST

       Neither do I, Jim... Dion got an answer, didn't he?

>Andrew, have you asked Dion if she/he feels I let him/her down by replying
>as I did?.

   No, of course not.  I have very little interest in knowing Dion's
   opinion of you.

>My apoligies for this to all others, I stop now though I feel I haven't yet
>begun!

   If, in the future, you send messages like this in private e-mail, I
   won't be compelled to respond publicly, and neither one of us will have
   to apologize to the list membership.

   -Andy

--
Andrew Warren - spamfastfwdspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

'Anyone know a source for stepper motors?'
1995\11\16@092735 by Mike Goelzer

flavicon
face
       I'm interested in using a PIC to control a stepper motor.  The best
documentation I've found is a Parallax BASIC Stamp app. note that talks
about interfacing a Stamp to a stepper (and since the stamp is really just a
PIC in disguise, I figure its close enough).  Anyway, in that app note the
writer has used an "Airpax" stepper, which I cannot locate..  Digikey only
sells one kind of stepper, and these do not meet my specs.  So I was
wondering if anyone knows where I might find a wider array of steppers? (I
am also sort of hoping that someone from Parallax who reads this list will
know where the author of Stamp app. note number 6 got his motor and will
tell me.)

Thanks for any info.

-mike
--
Mike Goelzer
<KILLspammgoelzerKILLspamspamspamus.net>

1995\11\16@122554 by Michael Robin

flavicon
face
Mike Goelzer wrote:

 So I was
> wondering if anyone knows where I might find a wider array of steppers? (I
> am also sort of hoping that someone from Parallax who reads this list will
> know where the author of Stamp app. note number 6 got his motor and will
> tell me.)

Hey Mike,
       The writer of App. note #6 is Scott Edwards.  He can be reached at
(502) 459-4802.

       Michael J. Robin
       Parallax Support

1995\11\16@152826 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Michael Robin wrote:

> Mike Goelzer wrote:
>
>   So I was
> > wondering if anyone knows where I might find a wider array of steppers? (I
> > am also sort of hoping that someone from Parallax who reads this list will
> > know where the author of Stamp app. note number 6 got his motor and will
> > tell me.)
>
> Hey Mike,
>         The writer of App. note #6 is Scott Edwards.  He can be reached at
> (502) 459-4802.

And a range of the Airpax steppers mentioned in Application note 6,
will be found in the All Electronics Corp catalogue. (US).
Try whttp://www.allcorp.com/allcorp/

They sent us a free catalog (Australia) after our E-mail request,
needless to say we have purchased and received our first order including
some of these Airpax steppers which I must find the time to hook up to a
PIC.

This outfit has heaps of 'surplus' goods. Well worth getting the catalog!

Don...

 Low Cost DIY PCB's for PICs & COM1/LPT1 PC I/O Interface Kits    ;!
 Don McKenzie. 29 Ellesmere Cres., Tullamarine. 3043 Australia    ;@
 Tel +61 3 9338 6286 Mobile  +61 14 672 127 @spam@donmckspamtbsa.com.au    ;#
 Check My Promo Disk at http://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/~sis/mirror/don/    ;$
 Type: 'finger KILLspamdonmckTakeThisOuTspamtbsa.com.au|more'  for more information.

1995\11\16@181312 by Carl Connett

flavicon
face
> From:          MAIL@CSERVE {INTERNET:RemoveMEmgoelzerEraseMEspamspamUS.NET} (Mike Goelzer)
> To:            MAIL@CSERVE {INTERNET:STOPspamPICLIST@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU} (Multiple
recipients of list PICLIST)
{Quote hidden}

Have you tried Edmund Scientific?  I seem to remember seeing some in
there.  Another option is to try re-sale catalogs or salvage catalogs
(ummm...of course, I can't think of the name of the one I purchased
from recently...  anyone know of a good one?)  By the way, I'm just
learning about stepper motors and would like to know how your
experience goes.


Carl Connett
Manufacturing Services
DaySpring Cards
PO Box 1010
Siloam Springs, AR  72761
Phn: 501.549.9251
Fax: 501.524.8813
mhs:carlc@outreach (compuserve)
@spam@carlcRemoveMEspamoutreach.mhs.compuserve.com (internet)

mhs:carlc@outreach (compuserve)
EraseMEcarlcspamBeGonespamSTOPspamoutreach.mhs.compuserve.com (internet)

'Information on $199 24 Channel 50MHz. Logic analyz'
1995\11\16@190407 by Mani Omid

picon face
First of all, thanks for all of your inquiries over the past few days!

Rather than an individual reply to each inquiry, This note is being posted to
the list, so everyone can get the requested information.

I hope this information answers your questions adequately.  If not, please
feel free to let us know.   Our address and contact information is at the
bottom of this note.

______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________

                                      Twice The Power, Half The Price
                                  ProBoard Circuits Proudly Introduces
                                                 Logic  Master 6.0
                           50 MHz. 24 Channel Logic Analyzer for only $199

This is  a powerful new instrument for those who want high performance at a
price they can afford.  We offer a broad range of very useful features at a
very
attractive price.
______________________________________________________________
High tech brings high performance
               *50 MHz sampling speed
               *Upgrade able to 192 channels
               *96K buffer addressing
               *PC based interface with RS232 link with high  speed transfer
               *Documented communication protocol
               *Programmable trigger
               *Disk logging and printing
               *Zoom feature
               *External clock input
               *Full color graphical user interface
               *Very fast screen update rates
               *Free software upgrades
               *Logic analyzer pods, cables, software and manual all included
______________________________________________________________
Low price fits low budgets
You can get this powerful 50 MHz., 24 channel logic analyzer for only $199.
This incredibly low price includes your logic analyzer complete with full
color VGA graphics software, instruction manual, serial cable, 24 logic pods,

and all the accessories you need.
Your standard unit will take one thousand samples per channel.  You can up-
grade your unit to take eight thousand or thirty two thousand samples per
channel.  The eight thousand samples per channel upgrade cost is only
$39.00.   The thirty two thousand samples per channel upgrade cost is only
$89.00.  Please specify if you wish for us to install additional memory in
your
system.
______________________________________________________________
Graphical user interface
Our unique  logic analyzer software converts your computer screen into an
easy to use instrument panel!  You can access desired features by simply
clicking on the buttons on the screen.  This system makes use of your PC for
data processing, display, printing, and disk logging, thus saving you time
and
money.  It provides quick response with full color graphics. 24 logic inputs
can be displayed simultaneously. You can store an unlimited number of
patterns to floppy or hard disk for later recall. The horizontal scale, the
time
offset, and the sampling rate are all user selective.  The display screen
showing your data and all your settings can be printed on any graphics mode
printer.
______________________________________________________________
Easy installation
Installation is very easy. Just plug in the serial cable to the RS232 port of

your PC and run the software. There is also an instruction manual that
explains every single step in detail.
______________________________________________________________
Guaranteed quality and 1-year warranty
We guarantee the quality. Every logic analyzer has been fully assembled and
tested by our expert staff before it gets shipped to you. You also receive
one
full year warranty.
______________________________________________________________
Fast and friendly customer service
Express delivery is available. Give us a call whenever you have questions or
need assistance, and you will always get prompt and friendly service.  For
your convenience, we accept  Visa, MasterCard, and COD orders.
______________________________________________________________
System requirements
.IBM  compatible (386 or higher recommended) with one available serial port
.VGA display
.Microsoft compatible mouse
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________

                                     ProBoard Circuits
                               100 Market Street, Unit 16
                                 Galveston, Texas 77550
                                 Phone:  (409)762-5436
                                  Fax:     (409)762-4167

If you decide to place an order, you can do so by phone by fax, or by email.
We do accept  Visa, MasterCard, and COD orders.   If you wish for us to
install any additional memory on your unit, please indicate so in your note.


If you decide to order by credit card, please do so either by phone or by
fax.  For obvious security reasons, we do not recommend transmitting your
card information over the network.
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________

'Anyone know a source for stepper motors?'
1995\11\17@200116 by John Barrowman

flavicon
face
Hi there!

Sorry I don't have the info you thirst for but I don have a phone number so
you can extract the info from the horses mouth. Scott Edwards (520) 459 4802.

John

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 1995 , 1996 only
- Today
- New search...